Franchise Deception or Truth?

[dannyboy85]

hi, my friend decided to join a franchise studio [edited by moderator] and she has never danced before. She lacks the experience and at age 17 has decided to follow a "dream" of being a "professional dancer" and instructor for the franchise. Not that i think the idea is bad bc she could become an actress or go into musicals but she doesnt want to do that. I asked her once if she would take an offer from a movie director for $500,000 to do a movie and she said no.
Not only did she choose a franchise, but chose the first studio that she came in contact with. Upon her entry to the studio they filled her head with the idea that she was going to be the best, but as her friend i cast doubts to their claims. She spouts out comments to me like a machine and it seems as tho the things they told her serve as propaganda for the franchise and encourage further involvement and participation.
She signed up for one of their programs and forked over several thousand dollars for future lessons. She has never attended any dance program or studio, she is one of those popular hs girls, she weighs under 100lbs and her weight is decreasing below 80 lbs now. Her instructor told her that after the contests she would have the remainder of the week to party. I was aghast by this idea bc dont you, after a competition, practice more?
From what friends and family are telling her is that she has a snowball's chance in hell of making it. She is beginning to "burn her bridges" and go on this quest full time and shut all doors to her chance at becoming a radiologist or doctor, which she used to always want to be. She has also began to push friends away that have helped her defeat her depression, anorexia, and suicidal tendencies.
What i want to know is whether or not they are deceiving her. Also if her first choice was the best choice at achieving her dreams... or hell, does she even have a chance at being the best or will it be fruitless

[dancin_feet]

Hi dannyboy and let me say welcome. Hope you find the help you need here at DF.

There are a lot of opinions here about franchises, so you are sure to get some interesting replies. Let me say from my point of view though, if they have told her that she can be the best from day 1, sounds like a ploy to drag her in. And it looks like it worked.

If she has had previous problems with addiction and depression, her reaction sounds quite normal for someone who has a tendency towards the extreme. Have you ever been able to convince her that she is going overboard or does she generally find out for herself and turn to you only after she has that realisation?

Not having seen her dance, she may very well have a natural ability that could lead her to be the best, I don't know. Franchises are a business usually more about making money than independant studios. You have to realise what they say is designed to get you in and keep you paying them. Once you realise this and not allow emotion to make your decisions, franchises can be a very good way to go, but you have to be aware.

The sad thing is that you may not be able to do much for her as she has already signed up and will probably be difficult to get out of the contract. Just be there as a friend if she needs it.

[pygmalion]

Hello dannyboy85, and welcome. 8) Yes, there is a really long older thread on franchise experiences that's always worth a read. Disclaimer: there are quite a few really good franchise affiliated studios out there. Not all franchise studios are the same.

About your post in particular, I find a few red flags.

1. If your friend is training to become a teacher, I find it strange that her franchise has charged her so much for lessons. Most franchise studios that I know of train their teachers gratis. The teachers don't get paid during that time, but they don't pay for lessons, either, unless they're doing something over and above the usual, such as training with a very high level coach.

2. If your friend is a paying student, $15,000 is the cheapest gold program I've ever heard of, unless she's focusing on just a few dances. It sounds like you may need to talk to her further, to get all the facts about her situation. From my experience with franchise studios, something's not adding up, here. Her bill should be much more than $15,0000. I suspect you may have only part of the story.

3. Your friend has an eating disorder, and perhaps other problems as well. That has nothing to do with her dance studio or teacher, and they can't be held responsible for that. They shouldn't exploit her, no, but they're not psychological counselors. If your friend needs emotional help, she should be encouraged to get it by the people who love her. But that really has nothing to do with dancing. Sorry to say that. It might be comforting to place the blame with the dance studio, but I'd have to know a lot more, before I was willing to do that.


Best of luck with your friend, dannyboy85. My prayers are with you both.

[Pacion]

Hi Dannyboy85. Welcome to DF. Thank you for sharing about your friend's experience and I hope you will share some of your own experiences.

I am sorry to hear about your friend. It sounds to me as if she truly signed up for a high level programme, and based on what you have said, she will be able to teach at the end of it. You did not say how long the course lasts for. Therefore, whilst several thousand dollars is a lot of money, if it is over a one year or two year period or even more, then, whilst it is a lot of money up front, when spread out like that, it may not be? I don't have any knowledge on this particular program therefore I can't say "Yes" or "No" regarding the cost of the program.

In connection with the instructor telling her she would have the remainder of the week to party, hmm, it is down to the teacher and pupil. For instance, when you were at school (if you are no longer at school), did you continue studying a particular subject, that week, after sitting an exam in it? Or did you take a break?

Stating the obviously, dancing is a very physical activity and preparing for a competition takes a toll both physically, emotionally and mentally. This is not even taking into account the number of hours of practice/lessons in the runup to the competition. Therefore, "having the week off to party" may not be such a bad thing.

Without knowing the people involved, it is hard to say whether they are deceiving her or not. Same for whether she has a chance at being the best or whether it will be fruitless. I have often heard that to be the best at ANYTHING, it is something like 20% talent and 80% perspiration. It just might be that your friend has that 80% perspiration going on for her and therefore will succeed at all costs.

As her friend, I would suggest that you be there for her. It sounds to me as if she may have other things going on in her life and maybe try and steer her towards counselling? Her health and mental state is very important and she also has to look after this, in addition to keeping up with all of the practice/studying she may have to do.

My thoughts are with you and your friend.

Pacion

[pygmalion]

Yup, Pacion, more facts are needed before we can give any valid advice about the cost of the program. Just for reference, while I was at a franchise studio which was charging about the going rate for ballroom dance lessons in the US, I paid $40,000, give or take, to get through bronze and half of silver, learning all the smooth and rhythm dances -- about 400 lessons, at about $90 each (45 minute lessons) plus extra studio events.

A lot depends on the "program" as sold -- how many dances, how many lessons, over what period of time, and in what country, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. $15,000 may be a fair price, but I would need more info to draw that conclusion.

[DancePoet]

Hope I'm not too off base here, but I'd be just as concerned about her health if she is 17 and dropping below 80 lbs.

[Sagitta]

Depends on how small a person is. I know some really small people. They are naturally small, and so weigh under 100 pounds.

[pygmalion]

You're right, Sagitta. Weighing a relatively small amount isn't necessarily a cause for concern. Just a couple points, though. The average American woman in 5 feet, four inches tall. And the recommended healthy weight for that height ( I'm 5'4" and the last time I checked -- Weight Watchers documentation copyright 2002) is between 117 and 140 pounds for a woman under 40 years old. So I think it's a safe bet that 80-pound healthy adult females are few and far between, unless they're unusually short. Also, to start at 100 pounds and end up at 80 means a loss of 20% of her body weight. That's a cause for concern, unless a person is obese, which she wasn't, not at 100 pounds. The assessment that she has anorexia might be right, but health care professionals probably should be involved.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and I think we're losing sight of one of the main questions in the original post. Is it reasonable to expect to start dance training at age seventeen and become "among the best?" Answer: it could happen. There's an older thread around here somewhere which asks about the best age to start dancing, which gives several example of people who started ballroom dance in their late teens to mid-twenties, who are currently among the best. It can be done.

I'll see if I can find that thread and post the link here.

[Kitty]

2. If your friend is a paying student, $15,000 is the cheapest gold program I've ever heard of, unless she's focusing on just a few dances. It sounds like you may need to talk to her further, to get all the facts about her situation. From my experience with franchise studios, something's not adding up, here. Her bill should be much more than $15,0000. I suspect you may have only part of the story.


$15000 :shock: What could be worth $15000?

[pygmalion]

I have a feeling you're affiliated with an independent studio, aren't you, kitty? I'll have to find that older thread on what dance lessons cost. If I remember correctly, the posts said that franchise studios are charging $80 - $150 per lesson. At $80each, $15000 doesn't buy many lessons. Also, most franchise studios require that you pay up front, sign a contract, and buy lessons in groups of 25, 50 100 or more. Do the math. $15000 isn't all that much.

[pygmalion]

Okay. Here's one thread. There are others, but this will do for a start.

http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=669

At the franchise studio I was affiliated with, there was a general variety level, about 30 - 50 lessons, then bronze, silver, and gold were each divided into four levels (i.e. bronze I, bronze II, bronze III, bronze IV) Each of those four subdivisions was roughly 50 lessons. More if you wanted to learn "extra" dances, such as peabody or lindy hop. These were 45 minute lesson that ran about $80 to $100 each, depending on whether you bought them in bulk.

Okay, so do the math. Three levels, bronze, silver, and gold. Four sublevels each, plus general variety at the beginning. 13 levels times 50 lessons each. 650 lessons at an average of $90 each. How much does that make a "gold program" cost? Oh, about as much as a fully loaded Lexus! :lol: 15 grand is a drop in the bucket.

[cl5814]

Three levels, bronze, silver, and gold. Four sublevels each, plus general variety at the beginning. 13 levels times 50 lessons each. 650 lessons at an average of $90 each. How much does that make a "gold program" cost? Oh, about as much as a fully loaded Lexus! :lol: 15 grand is a drop in the bucket.

ok, i am going to go off topic for this.........
How good a gold dancer are you after this set of 650 lessons ?

On further thought, let me not open the can of worms ....

[Kitty]

I have a feeling you're affiliated with an independent studio, aren't you, kitty? I'll have to find that older thread on what dance lessons cost. If I remember correctly, the posts said that franchise studios are charging $80 - $150 per lesson. At $80each, $15000 doesn't buy many lessons. Also, most franchise studios require that you pay up front, sign a contract, and buy lessons in groups of 25, 50 100 or more. Do the math. $15000 isn't all that much.

Yes, I'm from a university dance team, and our teacher has her own independent studio.

All franchise studios where I asked charge between $80 and $100 per 45 minute lesson. When you sign up for a package the price per lesson drops down to about $75 per lesson. Most independent teachers charge students $65 (they usually charge "grown ups" more).

My surprise was that you'd need so many lessons. $15000 is about 150 lessons. That is like a lesson every other day for a year! or two lessons a week for 2 years. That is a lot of lessons! If after all this you are mid-silver, I'd be questioning their teaching methods. I heard from some friends that studied at franchise studios that their american style bronse syllabus has like 30 steps for each dance. Maybe that is the problem. Anyway, do you think they keep people from advancing on purpose?

Getting to mid silver usually doesn't cost a college student 150 lessons, however, I heard at non-collegiate comps levels are higher and collegiate silver probably wouldn't be considered silver at an adult comp.

Also, it might be that you need so many lessons if you compete pro/am, because thats the only time you can practice with your partner.

Still, this was a shock :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[pygmalion]

Open away! I didn't say a GOOD gold program. I said a gold progam. Why do you think I'm not there anymore? When, after 350 lessons., I got my silver III certificate, and realized that I COULDN'T DANCE, I'd had enough. Can you say social promotions? Aaargh! I knew the step patterns, yes. But, dammit, I couldn't dance. :x

I was just illustrating the fact that dancing at a franchise studio can be a very, very expensive thing. :wink: :lol:

[cl5814]

Open away! I didn't say a GOOD gold program. I said a gold progam. Why do you think I'm not there anymore? When, after 350 lessons., I got my silver III certificate, and realized that I COULDN'T DANCE, I'd had enough. Can you say social promotions? Aaargh! I knew the step patterns, yes. But, dammit, I couldn't dance. :x

I was just illustrating the fact that dancing at a franchise studio can be a very, very expensive thing. :wink: :lol:

For me the issue with this set of lessons are "after 650 lessons you will be a gold level dancer". Sort of a promise of time spend (we calculated twice a week for 2 years, correct ?) to be a gold dancer. Isn't that partially why an advanced student then wants to go back to basics and refine them because they were rushed through the program to get them to gold level - afterall that is what you paid for.

But i am disgressing............ back to lurk mode for me......

"discussion back on topic" button pressed.

[Kitty]

How good a gold dancer are you after this set of 650 lessons ?

I just realized: if you dance pro-am - lessons is the only time when you practice with a partner. That complicates the situation. I practiced by myself for at least 2 hours for each hour of team practices witn a coach. In the beginning, always by myself, but lately I realized I can't practice by myself so much anymore: at least not standard/smooth.

[Kitty]

For me the issue with this set of lessons are "after 650 lessons you will be a gold level dancer". Sort of a promise of time spend (we calculated twice a week for 2 years, correct ?) to be a gold dancer. Isn't that partially why an advanced student then wants to go back to basics and refine them because they were rushed through the program to get them to gold level - afterall that is what you paid for.

Rushed? after 200 lessons spent on bronse? :shock:

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and I think we're losing sight of one of the main questions in the original post. Is it reasonable to expect to start dance training at age seventeen and become "among the best?" Answer: it could happen. There's an older thread around here somewhere which asks about the best age to start dancing, which gives several example of people who started ballroom dance in their late teens to mid-twenties, who are currently among the best. It can be done.

I'll see if I can find that thread and post the link here.

Here are a couple threads.
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1626
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3436

[pygmalion]

2. If your friend is a paying student, $15,000 is the cheapest gold program I've ever heard of, unless she's focusing on just a few dances. It sounds like you may need to talk to her further, to get all the facts about her situation. From my experience with franchise studios, something's not adding up, here. Her bill should be much more than $15,0000. I suspect you may have only part of the story.


$15000 :shock: What could be worth $15000?

A good argument for why those fortunate enough to be in collegiate dance teams and programs should take advantage while they can. 8)

[pygmalion]

For me the issue with this set of lessons are "after 650 lessons you will be a gold level dancer". Sort of a promise of time spend (we calculated twice a week for 2 years, correct ?) to be a gold dancer. Isn't that partially why an advanced student then wants to go back to basics and refine them because they were rushed through the program to get them to gold level - afterall that is what you paid for.

Rushed? after 200 lessons spent on bronse? :shock:

My take is that, anytime you can say up front, "I'll be finished silver in XX lessons," there's something wrong. Progress through a dance level should be, IMHO, based on your ability, your commitment, the amount of time and quality of your practice, etc. Anything is better than some arbitrarily determined number of lessons purchased.

[pygmalion]

Yes, I'm from a university dance team, and our teacher has her own independent studio.

My surprise was that you'd need so many lessons. $15000 is about 150 lessons. That is like a lesson every other day for a year! or two lessons a week for 2 years. That is a lot of lessons! If after all this you are mid-silver, I'd be questioning their teaching methods. I heard from some friends that studied at franchise studios that their american style bronse syllabus has like 30 steps for each dance. Maybe that is the problem. Anyway, do you think they keep people from advancing on purpose?



Sorry I missed this post earlier. I must have been posting at the same time as you. Should be interesting to get different people's perspectives on how many lessons are needed to progress through levels. I've tried starting that topic twice before with no response. Maybe people will speak up now.

And yes, like you, I question the teaching methods. I won't go too far off point here, but I will say that, in my observation, people always progressed through the sub-levels in fifty lessons, whether they practiced or not, whether they had high or low levels of ability. So I guess you could say I understand the teaching methods. It's the sales techniques I question. :roll:

[pygmalion]

Yes and no on the number of patterns per level. The syllabi that I have seen are all very similar - about fifteen patterns for bronze, ten for silver and above. But there were many variations of each pattern taught. At least in my case, all the variations didn't account for the time spent. Learning patterns is a no brainer for me. (Learning to dance? Now that's a different story. LOL)

[pygmalion]

Note: I'm moving this to ballroom forum. Hope no one minds. 8)

[pygmalion]

One more thought, and then I'm going to leave this thread alone. Honest. :oops: :lol:

Just a set of rhetorical questions. How do you know when you've "completed study" at a particular level of dance? when you know the patterns? The styling? The technique? The lead/follow? The connections? When you know its breadth, or know it in depth? Something else? Something more? How long does all that take?

Thoughts, anyone?

(Oh, btw, sorry, dannyboy85. I've hijacked your thread completely now. If you come back and post again, I'll get back on topic. I swear. :oops: :wink: )

[Genesius Redux]

Hey there, Dannyboy--

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. It sounds like she's got a lot of things worrying her, and the people at the franchise have taken advantage of that need. Here's my take on what you've written.

1. Just because she's never danced before doesn't mean that she can't become a very competitive ballroom dancer. She's only 17. And I've seen some really top-notch dancers who didn't begin until they were well over 30.

2. As Jenn mentioned, most of the franchise studios I'm aware of train their new teachers as part of the program. So I don't know why she'd have to fork over thousands of dollars in lessons. There are good college programs and teams out there now, so there's no reason she couldn't take advantage of that.

3. The anorexia, depression, and suicidal tendencies you mention are in my experience all-too-common among some of the younger women dancers at various franchise studios. The franchise is frequently run as a cult or at least a clique. Often dance as a way to address problems or emptinesses in your life is presented as a sales pitch.

Now I do think that if she seriously wants to compete, then immersion at an early stage is probably a necessity. Even at an independent studio, the lessons are going to be $65 each at least, and if she's only learning, say rumba, cha cha, mambo, bolero, ECS, tango, waltz, and foxtrot, as a foundation--that's still going to take some time. Let's say she only takes 10 lessons in which she works on each dance. That's still 80 lessons. And 10 hours of studying bolero, let's say, is not a lot.

Dancing competitively costs, no question about it. The thing that I'd check out with a franchise studio, however, is first--the price of the lessons themselves. The price of an hour lesson from a franchise that sells a big package should be less than you can get at an indie studio (it frequently is not). Second, check out the qualifications of the instructors. Where and how frequently are they competing? My teacher, who is working her way up in American Rhythm, is out of town practically every other weekend. She goes to probably eight or ten competitions per year, maybe more, I've not been counting. And not all competitions are equal.

That's what I can suggest, anyway. Hope things work out for the best.

Cheers,

Genesius

[Kitty]

And yes, like you, I question the teaching methods. I won't go too far off point here, but I will say that, in my observation, people always progressed through the sub-levels in fifty lessons, whether they practiced or not, whether they had high or low levels of ability. So I guess you could say I understand the teaching methods. It's the sales techniques I question. :roll:

Why do people who practice progress at the same rate as those who don't? That doesn't seem right.

[pygmalion]

Do you really need me to answer that?

Okay, I'll try to do so, without being unnecessarily ... uh ... cynical. First, franchise studios are not all the same. Just like you can go to a McDonald's in Georgia and get different prices and menu items than a Mickey D's in, say, NYC. Remember that.

My take on the progression thing is two fold. Just my opinions. One, the studio I attended was primarily a social dance studio which tried to foster a feeling of community among its students. Hence the social promotions. They couldn't very well advance some students more quickly than others, not if their primary goal was to foster team work among the students. It just wouldn't work. Students talk among themselves, remember.

Second, the "progression" through levels was an artificial construct to create a feeling of accomplishment in students, and to keep them motivated to keep buying lessons. Bear in mind that these were middle aged, mostly well-heeled, professionals. These were not college students taking classes for credit. They were grown-ups with jobs and kids and mortgages. There needed to be some sort of structure to keep people motivated. The progression from level to level, the "medal balls," showcases, etc, do that very effectively. To "hold" someone at a given level would defeat the purpose of that structure.

[Genesius Redux]

And yes, like you, I question the teaching methods. I won't go too far off point here, but I will say that, in my observation, people always progressed through the sub-levels in fifty lessons, whether they practiced or not, whether they had high or low levels of ability. So I guess you could say I understand the teaching methods. It's the sales techniques I question. :roll:

Why do people who practice progress at the same rate as those who don't? That doesn't seem right.

Because it's about selling the lessons, not about teaching people how to dance. But, Virginia, there is, most definitely, a Santa Claus.... :D

[pygmalion]

Hey! It took me a page. It took YOU one sentence. I guess concise use of language must be one of the advantages of being a professor. :wink: :lol:

[Genesius Redux]

Hey! It took me a page. It took YOU one sentence. I guess concise use of language must be one of the advantages of being a professor. :wink: :lol:

You're being very cute today. And I have to run off to my show rather than stay and flirt with you. Alas, alas.

:kissme:

[pygmalion]

:bouncy: Love you, too. :kissme:

[pygmalion]

I should say a little something here in defense of the franchises and why it took so many lessons. True, I think that sales was an important factor, but, at least at my former studio, bronze meant every conceivable dance at the bronze level.

Let me see if I can remember what dances I studied at bronze. Waltz, foxtrot, tango, cha cha, rumba, samba, bolero, hustle, WCS, ECS, peabody, salsa, mambo, merengue. Hmm. Was there something else? I think I'm forgetting something. At any rate, at bronze, you learned 15 patterns and several variations in all of these dances. The nominal sales pitch was thirteen lessons per dance per level, but, of course, if you were doing a tough dance, like, say, bolero, which required more work, you'd usually pair it with an easier one, like mambo, which required fewer lessons.

If you break it down that way, 200 lessons doesn't seem to be that much, especially when you figure in all the lessons spent on specific exhibition choreography.

[Kitty]

Second, the "progression" through levels was an artificial construct to create a feeling of accomplishment in students, and to keep them motivated to keep buying lessons. Bear in mich that these were middle aged, mostly well-heeled, professionals. These were not college students taking classes for credit. They were grown-ups with jobs and kids and mortgages. There needed to be some sort of structure to keep people motivated. The progression from level to level, the "medal balls," showcases, etc, do that very effectively. To "hold" someone at a given level would defeat the purpose of that structure.

Ok, maybe my question wasn'r clear. I'm not saying someone shouldn't advance after 50 lessons if they don't practice, and the system that creates a feeling of accomplishment is fine. But does anyone there advance faster to the next level than after 50 lessons if they practice?

On our university team every year there are few people who improve much faster than others, and by the end of the year they do well in bronse getting to semifinals or even finals at collegiate comps. Usually those are people who practice more and/or have experience with some other similar physical activity (ballet, gymnastics, pilates...). I think it makes sense that not everyone advances at the same rate.


Regarding your question about how fast - I think there is no universal answer. College teams push students to advance sometimes too fast. On one hand, it motivates students and gives them more interesting material to work on (as discussed in the other thread about difficult competitive routines), on the other hand, if they look good on dance floor dancing silver routine doesn't always mean they've mastered lead/follow and connection and some other important concepts.

I met few dancers who went through the franchise system (my bf's ex-partner was taking at least 1 private lesson a week for 4 years, and she is only bronse). Those people usually have good connection and excellent lead/follow, and are very enjoyable to dance with.
So maybe that time and those lessons at franchises aren't wasted but are spent on something that college students don't even have a clue about.

[pygmalion]

This is getting good. 8) I'm dying to say something, but I probably should shut up and let someone else have their say. :wink:

[Warren J. Dew]

Ok, maybe my question wasn'r clear. I'm not saying someone shouldn't advance after 50 lessons if they don't practice, and the system that creates a feeling of accomplishment is fine. But does anyone there advance faster to the next level than after 50 lessons if they practice?
In my limited experience with franchise studios, progression through the levels is basically measured by learning the figures, and I agree with Pygmalion that the number of lessons per level doesn't vary that much between students.

What does vary is the amount of technique the students pick up along the way. I think that with a good franchise instructor, if you are picking up the figures more quickly and spending time practicing, the instructor will use the extra time to teach additional technique.

[Kitty]

Let me see if I can remember what dances I studied at bronze. Waltz, foxtrot, tango, cha cha, rumba, samba, bolero, hustle, WCS, ECS, peabody, salsa, mambo, merengue. Hmm. Was there something else? I think I'm forgetting something. At any rate, at bronze, you learned 15 patterns and several variations in all of these dances. The nominal sales pitch was thirteen lessons per dance per level, but, of course, if you were doing a tough dance, like, say, bolero, which required more work, you'd usually pair it with an easier one, like mambo, which required fewer lessons.

If you break it down that way, 200 lessons doesn't seem to be that much, especially when you figure in all the lessons spent on specific exhibition choreography.

The only question is whether you need all those dances and all those steps. Can you pick fewever dances and advance through levels faster if you want? Or do they make you stay in bronse until you learned all mambos, merengues, hustles, peabodies, swings and viennese waltzes?

Also, I think the most difficult dance is the one you learn first (and second and third). As you work on your waltz you master a lot of your foxtrot. One couple on my team was good at waltz and at rumba (team spent a lot of time on those dances). Just before MIT comp, on last practice, our coach shown us some bolero technique and like 3 or 4 steps (they are same as int. rumba anyway). The couple placed in bronse bolero at the comp. So it took just 1 hour of instruction? I think it took them all the time they spent on their rumba and waltz and other dances. So I don't believe in universal # of lessons needed to master a dance, and I don't believe that it would take everyone same # of lessons due to differences in ability, time spent practicing, and dedication.

[Kitty]

In my limited experience with franchise studios, progression through the levels is basically measured by learning the figures, and I agree with Pygmalion that the number of lessons per level doesn't vary that much between students.

What does vary is the amount of technique the students pick up along the way. I think that with a good franchise instructor, if you are picking up the figures more quickly and spending time practicing, the instructor will use the extra time to teach additional technique.

ok, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for answering.

[pygmalion]

Yes. That's right on target. It's all about your goals. To be perfectly frank, after I left the franchise studio, I spent another year going back and working on bronze at my request.

To me, advancing through levels quickly isn't the goal. Learning to dance with beauty and excellence is the goal, however long that takes.

I didn't need all those dances, true. I wanted them. I'm a true dance generalist. If there's a dance out there I haven't done, I want to try it. That's just my way of looking at it.

LOTS of people see it differently.

As far as that particular studio, the number of lessons was key. So some people advanced through the levels with fewer dances studied. Those were usually the one-lesson-a-week people, so you really couldn't tell. The multiple-lessons-per-week people were generally studying two or three dances at a time. But everybody was going through about one level per fifty lessons. It's hard to describe without going through pages of explanation and getting way off on a tangent. :?

[Pacion]

(we calculated twice a week for 2 years, correct ?)

That is assuming that it is 1hr x 2 days per week.

What about if it were 6hrs a week? Could be split either as 3hrs twice a week or 2hrs x 3 days. Depending on the scheduling or whether there are private lessons on top of that, hey, if I were in my youth (all over again :wink: ) and studying dance, I could go through 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, at the very least, in which case I would probably go through 150hrs in 6 weeks :oops:

What kind of dancer I would be at the end of it? I would hope a pretty fine one at that!

[pygmalion]

Yes. You can learn a lot by crunching a bunch of lessons into a short time period. But some things require time to develop, and shortcuts don't help, I think.

[dancin dude]

Wow lots to say and little time.
Having been an instructor/manager/owner for a franchise for 16 years, now indy, I have some unique insight.
First: No Franchised studio can legally sign someone up for $15,000.00 worth of lessons at one time. There is a FTC limit of $7500.00 worth of lessons on the books at one time for any studio affiliated with a franchise that crosses State lines. Paid for or budgeted over time, you CAN NOT contract for over this ammount at one time. Some states have more strict limits, but you need to check your state for those. And, if your friend has contracted with a franchise for $15,000.00 worth of lessons, then perhaps a call to the studio by her parents about the legality of the contract might take care of the situation. Also every one of the franchises studios that I was affiliated with HAD to have a cancelation clause with a nominal cancelation fee in it. This is FTC mandated as well.
Second; selling an instructors program isn't all that uncommon. Doesn't happen every day, but, if a student has the abliity and desire to become an instructor the logic presented to me was; why train them for free when you can get paid to do so, and they learn faster because they are in private lessons instead of a group setting. Also there is no written gauruntee of employment upon completition of the training. In ten years of owning a franchise, I had 5 students purchase teaching programs and hired them. I also hired another student from the other same franchise studio in my city because they didn't want to hire him. Of the 6 only 1 is still in the dance business.
Third progressing through the levels is purely an individual thing. In the 6 Sranchise studios I worked in we were never told or asked to hold someone back to sell them more lessons. We also allowed a student to only focus on the dances they wanted to. Bronze "Qualification" program had 4 major dances and as many minor dances as the student desired. If the student so desired they were allowed as many majors as they wanted. For exams you only had to test out of the major dances.
Fourth I now own a indy studio, and while we did away with all the sales pitches and gimicks per se, we still "sell" dance lessons, as does every studio in the country. It IS how we earn a living. Just as it is with the franchises. This doesn't make them bad, as long as it isn't done with total disregard for the individuals financial situation AS WELL AS their physical ability and desire.
HOpe this helps. Sorry no time for sp chk now gotta go teach.
Mr Spock engage the cloaking device.

[pygmalion]

Thanks. It does help a lot. :D

[pygmalion]

Oh doggone it. I thought I'd be able to keep my trap shut, but I can't.

Your post is exactly why I was sure to include the disclaimer about not all franchise studios being the same. They're not.

I'll use the example of that FTC $7500 limit. The studio I went to, got around that regularly. Here's how. They had a six-week sales promotion twice a year. Their "better" students (meaning, the ones who bought the most lessons) were "conferenced" at least twice per sales promotion period, once near the beginning, once near the end. Both contracts offered were just under the $7500 limit, but the two together? $15K. It's easy to work around the loopholes.

Incidentally, if the studio didn't make its sales numbers, they would often offer you a third contract during their sales promotion, with a special discount as an incentive to get you to buy more lessons.

I was going to mention the cancellation option to dannyboy85 too. If this girl is ony 17, chances are her parent or legal guardian can cancel the contract. They aren't binding on minors under eighteen, are they?

[pygmalion]

Yup. I was right about the contract. This seventeen year old girl can't make a legally binding contract, unless she's an emancipated minor.

http://www.lawforkids.org/QA/Other/Other36.cfm

[mamboqueen]

A couple of things here kind of scare me.

The girl is 17 and is being told my studio teachers that she will have time to "party?" In what state are kids allowed to "party" at the age of 17? I hope she's getting some guidance from her parents. The weight loss thing is also of concern. If she is going to strive to be the best, this is where her addiction or affliction will come into play. Again, I hope her parents are involved in what's going on.

Jenn -- just curious; over what period of time have you spent $40,000 for dance lessons? Seems like an awful lot of money!

[pygmalion]

Jenn -- just curious; over what period of time have you spent $40,000 for dance lessons? Seems like an awful lot of money!

I spent $40,000 at the franchise studio over a period of two years. My first lesson there was August 6, 2001. My last lesson there was August, 2003. 390 lessons, plus about 15 formations ($100 to $250 each), at least one spotlight performance every three months, and a few other extras. It worked out to an average of about 4 lessons a week, and yes, it all adds up.

(Actually, that's not completely true. I SPENT the money over a period of about fifteen or sixteen months. It took me two years to use the lessons I had on the books. One week after I bought my last lesson block, I discovered a new, independent teacher/studio that put them completely to shame, and I never bought another lesson. I just used up the lessons I had. By the end, I was just using the teachers as practice partners, to be honest. Fun practice partners. I had grown beyond what they could teach me, at least from a technical perspective.)

I really don't want to get into the long, sad saga of my relationship with that studio. I really like the people there. The teachers were fun, nice people, and my fellow students were good people as well. If there's blame to be assigned (and some would argue there's not) it's with the way the incentive system is set up within franchises. Everything is about selling, IMHO, and the teachers, who often really do care about their students, sometimes can't make a decent living without high-pressure selling of what I consider to be excessive amounts of lessons.

If I made a mistake, it was in, early on, believing the assurance, which I later recgnized as another sales pitch, that I would get better if I just took more lessons. Not true, at least not in the absolute. You get better, when you take BETTER lessons. Not necessarily more lessons.

[pygmalion]

Just one more thing. Since leaving that studio, I've often considered going back, and maybe taking one lesson a week with the owner/manager, who has twenty years experience and still could teach me a thing or two or two hundred. :lol:

Yes, it's just a social studio, but it offers a lot of value, even for a competitive dancer. Like being connected to a community of dancers in a way I've never seen at an independent studio. Like opportunities to perform in showcases and formations on a regular basis. Like weekly social dances and periodic studio outings that are fun and good practice. Like tons of basic classes on a weekly basis, where a smart advanced dancer could go to practice technique without having to worry about footwork. Franchise studios do offer quite a lot of value.

[robin]

I spent $40,000 at the franchise studio over a period of two years. My first lesson there was August 6, 2001. My last lesson there was August, 2003. 390 lessons, plus about 15 formations ($100 to $250 each), at least one spotlight performance every three months, and a few other extras. It worked out to an average of about 4 lessons a week, and yes, it all adds up.
[...]
Yes, it's just a social studio
[...]
Franchise studios do offer quite a lot of value.

I can now understand why my dance-teacher says that the US are a dance-teachers paradise...

For $100/45 minutes I would have a lesson with a past world champion in the UK. One of my former teachers was a former blackpool amateur champion and excellent teacher, and charged ~$50/hour. Most good competetive teachers hover around that price in the UK. I've never had a lesson with a teacher at "social" studio, but i've seen them advertised for ~$30...

I'm absolutely incredulous at the sums of money people appear to spend on social dancing in america. I danced up to gold-medal in Germany, which was taught in classes and with practice sessions (but in a commercial studio). I believe I spent ~$400 plus a bit more for shoes/social dances/balls, maybe $600 in total. I was at school, I couldn't have afforded any more!

Now I'm in the UK and people in our (university) club will typically spend a similar amount, with commercial studios a bit more expensive, but still less than 5% of the cost you quote! Even seasoned amateur competitive dancers would spend less than $20,000/year!!!

The question I have is, who does this sort of thing? Who can afford it? None of my dancing friends would have $20,000/year to spare for dancing!!!

Robin

PS sorry if i just repeat an old discussion, i've not been around this board for so long.... ;)

[pygmalion]

Oh ho!

Ordinary people spend that kind of money. I'll try to remember the cast of characters at my old studio. A bunch of engineers, a couple accountants, a few small business owners, a doctor, a couple nurses, one handyman, a general contractor, a few real estate agents. Only an occasional wealthy widow. Not like the stereotypes at all.

In all fairness, I was one of their biggest customers. Not THE best, though. There were one or two people spending far more than I.

The range of expenditures in that studio was from a low of about $2000 a year. The minimum package they sold was about that much, and included three half hour lessons per month. The most I've seen anyone spend was about $30,000/year. She was the wealthy widow, and also bought the studio staff lunch every Friday.

The average student there was buying two forty-five minute lessons a week plus extras, which works out to about $10000/year. Yes, average.

The dance teachers' paradise thing is a misconception. The teachers in these studios are not making a lot of money, for the most part.

[DancePoet]

Three things:

1. Starting out at 17 sounds ok to me. In fact wonderful! Wish I had started when I was that age. (Of course I'm not aiming to be an outstanding professional dancer.)

2. Take advantage of the college teams!

3. The drop in weight is definitely an issue in my mind. Hope she is ok.

[DancePoet]

All the talk of dollars and hours got me to quickly calculate what I've done since starting last year, and where I am. (Way off on a tangent, but what the heck.)

Approx. 6 months of weekly beginner group lessons: 26 hrs x $10 = $260
(This included basics in Foxtrot, Tango, Waltz, ECS, Hustle, Cha-Cha, Mambo, Rumba, Samba, Viennese Waltz, Quick-Step, Bolero, and Salsa.)

Likely at least 45 social dances (probably 135 hrs): 45 x $5 = $225
And the studio's anniversary dance: 3 hrs = $40

Tango and Cha-Cha formation teams (about 30 hrs.): 2 x 100 = $200

I believe 12 individual privates: 12 hrs x $50 = $600

9 privates with competition partner, cost shared: 9 hrs x $25 = $135

4 group classes, each 4 lessons: 16 hrs x $10 = $160
(all bronze patterns for Cha-Cha and Tango)

3 group classes, each 5 lessons: 15 hrs x $10 = $150
6 group classes, each 4 lessons: 24 hrs x $10 = $240
(all bronze patterns for Foxtrot, Rumba, and Waltz)

Excluding the social dances, that's 132 hours of lessons for $1745. This averages out to a cost of just over $13 per hour for lessons.

By no means does this make me a super dancer. However, I haven't had to sign any contracts, I have been able to exercise freedom in what I choose to learn, and I have been rewarded with lot's of fun dancing to great music while making lot's of new friends. Adding in the social dancing that's 270 hours for $2010 which makes the cost about $7.50 per hour. I work around 240 days per year, so that's just over $1 per day!

(I have done three competitions, but need to look up the info on this before discovering my total cost. Everything was done through an independent studio, except the competitions.)

It's been worth it!

[pygmalion]

Yes. It is a lot less expensive if you take the group class route. It's lot more difficult to learn technique in a typical group class. But it is less expensive.

Most franchises include group classes with the privates they sell. For example, my old studio included unlimited group classes and socials when you bought any private lesson package. I didn't include those in my accounting, but the studio offered about ten group classes and a party each week, and I was there for most, if not all, of them. 8)

[DancePoet]

I suspect my technique is weaker then it could be if I practiced more and took more private lessons. I feel my smooth dances are much better then my others, and the technique for these is what I have been working on through the privates with or without my competitive partners on 21 occassions over the last year. Also, I was lucky enough to obtain comments at one competiton, and my instructors are often helpful in answering questions or providing additional constructive advice even when I'm not participating in a class.

In some fashion, I am probably getting what I paid to have, and I'm having tons of fun, too!

[Genesius Redux]

The girl is 17 and is being told my studio teachers that she will have time to "party?" In what state are kids allowed to "party" at the age of 17? I hope she's getting some guidance from her parents.

Well, they sure aren't as young today as they were when I was 17. It was a very good year. 8)

[pygmalion]

True, GR. 17-year-olds these days aren't as young as I was at seventeen, either. I was pretty sheltered.

But what scares me here is that she appears to be anorexic. That tells me that she's one of the fragile ones. I hope she's okay. It's terribly easy to exploit the fragile ones.

[Genesius Redux]

Yes, and he also said she could be suicidal. That's not been that uncommon among some of the dance teachers I've known to work at franchises. They're really little more than kids, many of them have troubled pasts, and they're ripe for exploitation.

Very sad on the whole.

[pygmalion]

Yes, and to be honest about it, I'm not sure which possible exploitation bothers me the most -- the sale of huge numbers of lessons to an unsuspecting student, or the sale of an unrealistic ideal to an aspiring teacher. Both can be damaging and exploitative, depending on who's doing the selling.

I remember a couple young female teachers I used to have, who entered the dance business with rose-colored glasses and high ideals. It was quite clear to me that they were sold an unrealistic dream just as much as I was. Thank goodness, both of them caught on to the game, and both quit the business long ago. The dance business can be quite brutal.

[Warren J. Dew]

Doesn't everyone have unrealistic ideals when starting almost any career?

I agree with what people are saying about warning signs, but I think the goal of being a professional dance instructor is at least more realistic than the goals of being an actress or getting into musicals that she seems to have rejected....

[pygmalion]

True. Becoming a dance teacher is an achievable goal. Even becoming a serious competitive dancer is an achievable goal, depending on where this girl is studying and with whom.

[mr bixx]

i see that franchised studios arent really liked on this forum. i'm guessing many have had a horrible experience there. where i live the indepentants are horrible. atleast with a franchised studio you have a solid structured program, something i havent seen out of a independant. also at a franchise you are able to learn more all around dancing, where alot of indys i noticed are like swing only or salsa.
i would rather pay to go to a big name place because i know first hand the kind of training we are put through. we have teracher test twice a year on patterns and technique. we have to constantly be getting better nad gaining more knowledge to pass on to our students.

[pygmalion]

Franchises do have a lot of problems that I've seen, mr bixx, but, as you probably noticed, I see their value too. They haven't been around for almost a hundred years (in the US) for no reason.

A couple things I really enjoyed and valued about my franchise experience were that exposure to lots of dances and the feeling of community, neither of which I saw at independent studios. And yes, the teachers went through some stringent training, to the point where most of the trainess didn't make it through. It wasn't easy for them.

I have to be honest and say that the financial structure and sales techniques that I've experienced at franchises were pretty bad.

But there IS a lot of value there.

[Hank]

It took me about 9 years and $100,000 to go from nothing to completing gold in International Standard. But, about half that time and money went to other dances, like latin, American Style, salsa, west coast swing, lindy, and country. I think it was worth every penny, and I'd do it all over again.

[DanceAm]

I have to say, throw away the pep rally party, the sales techniques, costs, teacher experience, just everything but the student's ability to dance, and I will be glad to compare independant studios against franchise.

There are 4 main studios in our city and the students that do the best dancers are from the independants. Although they might get there butt kicked in Peabody.

The main reason for this, the independant studios have teachers that are committed to teaching dance. If you want syllabus they got it, if you want package pricing, they got it. If you want to see and make friends, stay with the indepedant, you are more likely to see these students in a few weeks. We have current competing professional champions as well as former champion coaches available.

100,000 in 9 years? That is not the most outragious figure I have heard. I have actually heard of 150,000 in less than two. The sad part is that some of these people still can't dance. I am glad to hear you can.

[pygmalion]

It took me about 9 years and $100,000 to go from nothing to completing gold in International Standard. But, about half that time and money went to other dances, like latin, American Style, salsa, west coast swing, lindy, and country. I think it was worth every penny, and I'd do it all over again.

Good for you, Hank. 8) Honestly, I think it's a matter of each individuals' goals, and the value they place on achieving them. And, from all I've heard, there are some darn good franchise studios in the US. Darn good. Not all franchises are the same. Caveat emptor.

[mamboqueen]

9 years @ $100,000 sounds good considering I'll probably pay that much for one year of my kid's college education when they go. And a state school, no doubt!

You see, I just have to put the money part of it out of my mind. For one thing, if I *knew* what I spent and my husband asked, then I'd have to lie if I knew the answer. If I just don't add it up, it's not really lying. Ignorance is indeed bliss! :twisted:

[Pacion]

:lol: MamboQueen. I hope he isn't a member here :wink: :lol:

[DancePoet]

My experience with the independent studio I take lessons seems like it is at least above average.

When one mention's having a solid structured program, that could mean many different things. Where I take lessons, I can establish in conjunction with the instructors and what is being offered for lessons, my own program of lessons. So...if I don't want to focus on merengue, my least favorite of the dances they teach, then I don't. But if I want to focus on tango, my favorite, I can. The variety of dances one can learn is likely more limited then a franchise place, but almost everything is available for American style, along with several International styles (although not a complete collection of international is taught). ECS and WCS, Salsa, Hustle, Merengue, and Belly Dancing are also available. Line Dancing and Country styles have sometimes been available, too. I suspect more will be offered as the studio grows.

And I have spoken of the feeling of community created at this studio before...it is outstanding! There are weekly social dances, special events, a team atmosphere regarding preparations for competitions, activitees for teens, and a real feeling of family.

I know the instructors may be lesser skilled with the technique side of teaching, yet they continue to take lessons themselves, watch videos, read dance publications, and continue to grow their skills in this area. However, when it comes to the personality side of teaching and the organization of their business, including a no-pressure style of service to their students, I am very pleased. Their prices seem very fair as well.

Ooops...another tangent. Gee. surprise, surprise. ;)

[mamboqueen]

No, Pacion. He doesn't like to dance, much less read about it!!

In fact, heh heh, I scatter my dance shoes throughout the house so it doesn't look like I have so many. If I put them all in one place, he'd start adding and I'd have to sell one of my children on ebay.

[DancePoet]

mamboqueen: But what if he has a spy? ;)

[mamboqueen]

a spy?

My name is Ellen Lipshitz and I live in Flushing, New York. I am 5'2" and weigh 89 lbs. wet. I am 1/2 asian, 1/2 eskimo. Errr.....I shine shoes at 48th and 5th. Oh, and I have four kids; 1 by my first husband, one by my second and two adopted with my new *female* friend.

how'd I do??!! LOL!

Sorry for highjacking the thread!

[DancePoet]

mamboqueen: LOL!

But the spy might already know this isn't true. ;)

[mamboqueen]

uh oh. you're the spy, aren't you??


Mamboqueen exits the forum and starts listing her shoes on ebay.

[DancePoet]

If I tell you I'm the spy, then I wouldn't be a true spy anymore, now would I? ;)

Besides, maybe your husband loves you so much, and he knows you like dance so much, he let's you do it anyway. The spy might just be confirming his knowledge, rather then evilly looking for some reason to be angry and upset. (Kind of a nice thought, even though we are way off topic, huh?)

[pygmalion]

a spy?

My name is Ellen Lipshitz and I live in Flushing, New York. I am 5'2" and weigh 89 lbs. wet. I am 1/2 asian, 1/2 eskimo. Errr.....I shine shoes at 48th and 5th. Oh, and I have four kids; 1 by my first husband, one by my second and two adopted with my new *female* friend.

how'd I do??!! LOL!

Sorry for highjacking the thread!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Very well done. You give the phrase "franchise deception" a whole new meaning.

(and, btw, don't add it up. You don't want to know, probably. :shock: :? :lol: )

[DancePoet]

Pygmalion: You are so funny!

[pygmalion]

Thanks. :oops: 8)

[mamboqueen]

Okay; I'm having trouble figuring out this "quote" thing. How do I quote someone in a box??

And Jenn, I'm thinking the term "disenfranchised" is applicable herein, wheretofore and hereunder. Err, and let's throw in a few commas for good measure, okay, ??!!

I'm going to bed. Getting a little wacky as I go on here :)

[/quote]

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: :lol: You crack me up! Disenfranchised definitely applies!,,,, :lol: :lol:

[Genesius Redux]

Okay; I'm having trouble figuring out this "quote" thing. How do I quote someone in a box??

And Jenn, I'm thinking the term "disenfranchised" is applicable herein, wheretofore and hereunder. Err, and let's throw in a few commas for good measure, okay, ??!!

I'm going to bed. Getting a little wacky as I go on here :)



Do you mean quote someone who is in a box? Or quote someone while you are in a box? Or with a fox? You can quote them here or there, you can quote them anywhere. Just click the Quote Box, that's the scheme. Click and send it, Mamboqueen. :D

[mamboqueen]

LMAO! Thanks, GR! I'll give it a whirl later.

[pygmalion]

I would not try them in a boat. I would not try them with a goat. I would not try them in a box. I would not try them with a fox. I would not try them here or there. I would not try them anywhere! I do not like quote eggs and ham. I do not like them, ... Sam I Am!

Umm... What is this thread about? :oops: Anybody remember? :lol:


dannyboy85, if you're still out there, please log in at some point, and let us know how your friend is doing. We're concerned about her well-being. :? :(

[dannyboy85]

Thanx for your guidance, but she is now 18. She is used to club dancing like hip hop and R&B, and has done gymnastics, but the weakness in her back prevented her from furthering it. She told me she could have been an "olympic gymnastic star," but because she hurt her back in a flip, she became afraid to do it. I think she does over exaggerate for the most part, but I dont question her (pointless info...but oh well)
All she talks about now is AM, she speaks like a machine about it, almost as if it serves as a substitute for other things, such as her friends, and her health. She wont open her eyes and I am fearing the worst when she goes on her first full competition. I havent talked to her for a month now bc she is making the studio her life. She practices every other day then practices by herself for 2 hours in her room. She told me though that this is her dream and its something she loves to do...but her parents are concerned that it will be a failed future. She has started to display scarring, which symbolizes she is vitamin deficient of Vitamin E. Despite our attempts to state the importance of the vitamins, she thinks she is unbreakable and will be able to survive. The big issue for her is that if she doesnt get her vitamins by age 25, her body will not accept and store for future use and she will not live to see age 30.
On another note, she is going to county college only because she is forced to by her parents. She is not learning dance there but radiology (which is a high paying field). Though she does have spunk, she often doesnt follow through with things, like for example, she did a vocational school for a year then quit out of it after a single year...she said at that time she wanted to be a makeup artist for the "stars," then she wanted to be a doctor, now a professional dancer/teacher. I need to know though, how much can she possibly win at contests? She also said to me that her coach Lucci is new there and is being paid 80,000 to start. Are they really paid that much per year or are they lying to her to entice her further?

[Chris Stratton]

A number of things sound fishy in the situation as described, such as with the amount of money she thinks she will make. I don't think income from winning would be of any pratical importance at all - at best, she might do moderately well by teaching and entering competitions with large numbers of pro-am students, but that is very tiring work that would cut into the time and energy available for her own competition goals.

In terms of the amount of time she's putting into things - obsession is normal; but it has to be balanced with taking care of oneself. It's not clear that the amount of time itself is excessive - you did say every other day, wheras many people here have probably had periods in their lives when they were doing more than 2-3 hours or more every day. Realistically, this is no more than any high school sports program, so it should be within the reach of a healthy young adult.

But if there are concerns about health, or her future employment prospects, some things you or her parents might want to do would be:

1) If the studio is a franchise, contact the parent company and basically ask if the situation fits within their rules and image of their business. An interesting idea would be to spell your concerns out in a registered letter; that might get their legal department's attention since it could make it difficult to claim ignorance of the local situation if a problem were to develop later, either of disputed terms or health problems.

2) Contact the state department of labor and see if there have been complaints by any past employees. If her health crashes and she needs to withdraw, or the pay doeesn't turn out to be what she thinks she was promised, information like this could be important for dealing with contract issues.

3) Contact the appropriate agency to check into the possibility of complaints by past students.

A competition might or might not be a reality check - it all depends on if it includes healthy, well trained, experienced opposition, or only others similarly caught up in a relatively private world of dreams.

An entirely different approach would be to try to promote her interest in dancing, but in a more realistic and healthy manner. That might mean something like making arrangments to take her to see (or better yet take a lesson with) truly world-class dancers at an event far beyond the studio context. Perhaps this could be offered as a bargaining chip if she would agree to see a doctor 'just to double check' that she has no nutritional or other health issues.

(after re-reading the original poster's comment, I decided to revise my response to better fit my current impression of the situation)

[mamboqueen]

I think that if she follows past behavior, she might just very well get sick of, or burn out from, dancing and give it up. She really needs a course in *moderation*. Sometimes you just have to sit on the sidelines and be supportive, though, because she may just completely pull away from people who are trying to steer her out of what she really wants to be doing.

Hopefully, she'll take the radiology seriously, if nothing else, so so she has something to fall back on.

[/quote]An entirely different approach would be to try to promote her interest in dancing, but in a more realistic and healthy manner.

I agree with this.

[pygmalion]

Disclaimer: I am not, nor do I claim to be a psychologist. I do have a family background that gives me a bit of insight I'd like to share, though.

Psychology, family systems and emotional balance are very complicated things. When dealing with things like chemical dependencies and eating disorders, sometimes, the very things that we, as outsiders, think are right to solve the situation may be enabling the problem to continue or even causing the problem. I'm not going to give examples. Like I said, I'm no doctor.

That said, there are support groups out there for the families and friends of people with emotional challenges, such as eating disorders. I'll google. I'm sure there must be a support group for the families of people with eating disorders. Your friend's parents might want to look into that. At the very least, they may get some coping methods that help them disengage from the problem enough to be really helpful. Those groups do work.

Here's a long list -- some for people with disorders, some for families.

http://www.ability.org.uk/support_groups_eating_disorders.html