Franchise Experiences

[etp777]

Heh, my pro and buddy teacher (who both started ballroom as adults), might argue that some people, to remain nameless, take the analytical part and the what/why too far. :D

[latingal]

Heh, my pro and buddy teacher (who both started ballroom as adults), might argue that some people, to remain nameless, take the analytical part and the what/why too far. :D

agreed about the teachers who learned as adults and guilty on that charge of analytical also....there are times when my pro gives me "the look" as I'm about to ask the thousandth question in my lesson. It's the look and that "ennnhhhh ennnhhh" with the talk to the hand thing, and I know it's time to just shut up and dance. *grin*

[samina]

Isn't this the way of life? Job skills (engineering, dance teacher or otherwise) are not inherent in us. Everyone receives training, everyone.

as a self-taught professional in a number of areas, i am always mindful of inserting a reminder that there are special instances where excellence can be achieved via a less traditional path. :)

it's more challenging to wend one's way into the professional world if one hasn't professional certification, but it doesn't necessarily mean their knowledge & accomplishment is less. i tend to gravitate most toward & have the keenest respect for self-taught professionals because i know the resourcefulness and ingenuity and independence of thought that it requires.

so... cheers to those who've followed that path, in dance & elsewhere.

[dancinrina]

as a self-taught professional in a number of areas, i am always mindful of inserting a reminder that there are special instances where excellence can be achieved via a less traditional path. :)

it's more challenging to wend one's way into the professional world if one hasn't professional certification, but it doesn't necessarily mean their knowledge & accomplishment is less. i tend to gravitate most toward & have the keenest respect for self-taught professionals because i know the resourcefulness and ingenuity and independence of thought that it requires.

so... cheers to those who've followed that path, in dance & elsewhere.

I can definatly appreciate someone who "made" themselves. But, you have to admit that it would be a lot harder for a 20 year old to do that today than it was even 10 years ago.

[dancingirldancing]

I had 2 experience with franchised studios.

The first one is mediocre at best. I told the teacher that I want to learn at an advanced level. He took my money and taught me box rhumba when I am already proficient at the int rhumba. But at least he is nice and not pushy...

The second one is a total nightmare. There is this national champion owning the joint and I wanted to learn from him. From the start I already told him that if he is unavailable I do not want to take lesson there. He said ok after failing to persuase me to learn from an inferior teacher. Then he made made pay for 10 lesson. He is ok in teaching although I feel that he is witholding too much information from me. He often tell me to go over things even it is not needed so he can get away from teaching me more stuff. He is also several times tried to spend my expensive lesson by 'making' me take extra lesson from the girl teacher that happened to not have any customer. He will do things like this...
Him: Oh, I want to give you extra lesson for your Bronze medal night. I think you need it.
Me: Ok then.
Him: Oh, [name of girl instructor] can you please take her ? (despite me telling him that I do not want to take lesson from anyone else let alone a girl-girl situation)

I just got sooo tired of arguing with him that I just complied until I finished my 15 pre purchased lesson and get my Bronze latin and street latin.

Please note that I am already advance before I go to this studio and can probably pass that very easy and lenient bronze exam without even taking a lesson so it was $1000 soo badly spent.

I move to an independent since ad never been happier.

I think if you want a social enjoyment then choose chain but I am not dancing to meet people, or have parties. Technique and great choreography are so important to me.

Just my 2 cents I hope I do not offend anyone.

[reb]

The second one is a total nightmare. There is this national champion owning the joint


. . . champion (of what?)

[JANATHOME]

The franchise's do use a unit lesson approach. That is one unit is a privite lesson, as many groups as you want to attend and parties. If you use the units wisely it can be a good deal, although $140.00 is much more expensive than what is charged in our area. I have seen some students taking up to 2 groups a day, 5 days a week along with a priviate lesson and for them the unit makes sense.

At the franchise we attend we dont purchase a unit lesson, but simply purchase priviate lesson and will pay seperately if we want to go to a group, which is rare. You should consider how many groups you plan to attend, how many privates a week you will do and then make a decision, if any, is right for you. No matter where you go, franchise or independent, if you purchase priviate lessons you can plan on investing sizable dollars for dance traning once past the intro package honeymoon.

[Purr]

Lastly, how do I go about finding a good independent studio?

Visit as many studios as you can. Look at the other dancers around you while you're there - do you want to look like them? Ask questions of the teacher during the introductory lesson, including what their certifications are. When you're at community dances, ask dancers that you like where they take lessons.

[fascination]

go to local comps and see who's winning....

[suburbaknght]

go to local comps and see who's winning....

That's a start, but as one of the previous posts mentioned, a good dancer does not automatically make a good teacher. Go to the comps, see who's dancing you like, then talk to their students.

[fascination]

well sure...but if they have more than one student who is winning and willing to compete with them, chances are they are a good teacher as well as a good dancer

[fascination]

beyond that it is still a possible indicator of a good independent studio in general...one obviously can't stop doing their research at that moment...but it is a start

[dancinrina]

So, since we're on the topic anyway, how do you know that a ballroom studio will be good for you if you want to compete. Most studios I've been in recently focus on social dancing which, while it is indubitably fun, is not what I want to focus on. I would think if studios had students who were competing they'd be proud of the fact and advertise but, I seem to have to drag the information out of studio receptionists and owners.

[samina]

go to local comps and see who's winning....

*great* recommendation.

and by that gauge, you are definitely in good hands with your new instructor, fasc.

[fascination]

I was in good hands with both on that front...and even non-local with both (for the most part) on that front though arguably more w/ NP than FP...though that was never my main priority...then or now...and mercifully for me, both hold one another in high regard....one small mercy...nuff said

[njdancegirl]

I was in good hands with both on that front...and even non-local with both (for the most part) on that front though arguably more w/ NP than FP...though that was never my main priority...then or now...and mercifully for me, both hold one another in high regard....one small mercy...nuff said

I respect a pro that speaks highly of another or has the good sense not to talk down their peers in front of students. Shows a certain respect to other professionals in their field, putting away the ego.

Lucky you, Fascination, to have found two! Do you still work with both or just NP? Wondering how you are handling as dualing opinions can sometimes make life very interesting even with a mutual respect.

[fascination]

currently I am only working with the new one but it was an open adoption so to speak...I would rather not elaborate...but yes...both are gentlmen...

[LatinDancer006]

I respect a pro that speaks highly of another or has the good sense not to talk down their peers in front of students. Shows a certain respect to other professionals in their field, putting away the ego.

This reminds me a joke I heard a long time ago and it goes like this. An attorney, an accountant and a bartender went on a small fishing boat out to the ocean when they encounter a few sharks. The sharks capsized the boat and started to eat the accountant and the bartender and as soon as they were done they swam away. Why did the sharks not eat the attorney? Because they wanted to extend him the professional courtesy.

[mamboqueen]

heh...you do know what fasc's husband does for a living?? *LOL*

[reb]

go to local comps and see who's winning....
Adding to fascination's words - when you go to the comps tell people you're looking and get lots of input, do your own research as you would expect someone you hired to do for you (as in the words "shop around" as I read here somewhere), take your time to help yourself make a good choice - or you may get lucky/unlucky jumping right in.

In your initial conversations, particulaly approaching a studio/teacher, the conversation might miss the higher level picture and become centered around the teacher's/studio's own experience/business regarding Amateur, Pro/Am, etc - that can be a big factor in your decision process, so that's one reason to seek as many opinions as you can, and time has a way of helping absorb these inputs.

When shopping around, giving the studios/teachers a chance to tell you why they should be your teacher is helpful, but you'll need your research for a context in which to put their inputs.

What's your focus/vision? (parties/classes, Amateur competitor, Pro/Am, Pro?)
Who/what's available to you and within your physical reach? (distance, time)
What are your resources? (money)

Some areas don't have a lot of choice, others do . . .

[syncopationator]

I had my introduction into the ballroom world at an Arthur Murray studio. I was there for one year. 3 years later I am still trying to get rid of old habits.

[dancinrina]

I think I've already expressed my dislike of chain studios - particularly Arthur Murray (the whole bf won't dance anymore because of them thing....). But, I recently found a Fred Astaire that may be quite nice with some very good teachers. So, I think maybe "shopping around" and trying not to be prejudiced is the best way to find a good studio. Still, how come some studios are loath to mention competitive students?

[syncopationator]

Still, how come some studios are loath to mention competitive students?

It looks really bad when the students are better dancers than the teachers.

[dancingirldancing]

It looks really bad when the students are better dancers than the teachers.


Yup, especially when the student is you.

[Sunshines Partner]

I think I've already expressed my dislike of chain studios - particularly Arthur Murray (the whole bf won't dance anymore because of them thing....). But, I recently found a Fred Astaire that may be quite nice with some very good teachers. So, I think maybe "shopping around" and trying not to be prejudiced is the best way to find a good studio. Still, how come some studios are loath to mention competitive students?

You can go into almost any Fads in New Jersey and be sure you going to get top quailty instruction.

[etp777]

Just as a counterpoint to some of these bad stories, and to go along with SP, love my FA, and the FA's here around Chicago in general. Getting great instruction, good coaches are coming in, etc. Course, will say that a lot of the coaches coming in are brought in due to them being known from DWTS (hey, can't fault their business model, classes by Maksim, etc always bring in tonso f random people off the street), but my next coaching is with former world ten dance champ, and my last one was with a blackpool finalist, etc. Just been told I'm not going to learn ANY new steps over next 2.5 months so we can strictly work on technique and styling, so definitely an attention to detail and quality of dance too, not just quantity (getting ready for a comp and showcase).

Anyway, I'm happy where i am. :)

[LucyDiamond]

You can go into almost any Fads in New Jersey and be sure you going to get top quailty instruction.
So true!!!

[fascination]

sure...it depends on location...just like independents...some are high quality and some bite...and some are a mixed bag

[SassySamba]

Haha. Not necessarily! But I have noticed you can turn half the things they say around to be an innuendo. lol jk. Sorta.

Sorry peepz. I'm just really anti-franchise. No offense to anyone who is at a franchise. But I've been to both (indy and franch). and I've heard lots of horror stories from franchises. And the people that go there are just plain weird.

An ind. studio feel more like a training facility. Everyone is there to simply dance and practice and have a good time. No packages, no sales pitches...you are in charge of your dance future.

At least from my experience....

[wonderwoman]

lol Nobody who goes to my studio is weird... It's one thing to state facts, but half of what you're saying is opinion only.

[SassySamba]

Precisely! it is my opinion. I never claimed it as fact.

[wonderwoman]

They're offensive to some though.

[SassySamba]

What have I said that was offensive?

[samina]

What have I said that was offensive?
That the people who go there are weird. Take care, sassy...there are quite a few DFers who are devoted to their franchise studios. And speaking as an indy-fan myself...the franchise devotees here are good people.

[etp777]

And some of us are just troublemakers. :)

That being said, it sounds like you had a bad experience with a franchise. That is of course not a good thing. BUt it does not mean that all franchise employees are as bad as the one you had issues with. Or bad at all.

More importantly, that's not really the topic of this thread. There are other threads applicable (Whining thread, several threads on indy vs franchise studios, etc).

[SassySamba]

I had no idea calling someone weird was offensive.

[etp777]

Weird isn't what was offensive. Accusing all franchise pros of seducing and purposely leading on their students just to make more money is what was offensive. Besides, developing a crush on your instructor is definitely not limited to franchises. It's a nature of the business. The closeness, the perceived intimacy of the partnership, etc.

[SassySamba]

Weird isn't what was offensive. Accusing all franchise pros of seducing and purposely leading on their students just to make more money is what was offensive. Besides, developing a crush on your instructor is definitely not limited to franchises. It's a nature of the business. The closeness, the perceived intimacy of the partnership, etc.

I still don't see how that's offensive. It happens so much at franchises. There may be a small percentage of instructors at franchises that actually care about your dancing...these end up leaving the franchise eventually.

It does happen at independents too...

This perceived intimacy usually occurs with newbies to the sport.

[etp777]

Exactly how many franchises have you gone to?

[SassySamba]

I've gone to almost every in my area, I'm in phx.

Plus my sister works at one (ams). So I hang out there sometimes.

[etp777]

bad etp777

[wonderwoman]

Well then you've got em all figured out.

[lemonade]

Sorry to say this, (and hi sassysamba, I have not seen you post before and enjoy your frank posts!) but yes, I would probably, rightly or wrongly feel offended if someone called me weird. I almost started lessons at a franchise because I did not know about another closer location that was independent. I knew so little about ballroom I would not have even understood the difference at the time. I just chose the closer place. Had the franchise been closer I would have gone there. I would not have understood it in a positive way if I was called weird. I only say this because I know many people go to the franchises, for whatever the reasons, and they are so happy there. And there are scrupulous and unscrupulous pros in independent and franchises, from what I have heard over the years.

[Larinda McRaven]

http://www.innocentenglish.com/cute-pictures/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cute-cat-hiding.jpg

A watchful eye......

[Easy]

LMAO I used to own a franchised dance studio. It was amazing!!! As soon as we stopped being a franchise, all of us went from being weird sleezbags to perfectly normal gentlemen. To top that, the facility itself changed. The next morning when we arrived at work, the place didn't look like a factory anymore --it turned into a training facility. Packages became nonexistent.

I just really can't believe how long we were under that franchise company's spell. Thank goodness we saw the light. Changing our label was all we had to do.

[wonderwoman]

I am interested to talk to more former franchise instructors to find out what really goes on "behind the scenes". Wrong thread for it, but I wonder how many we have here.

[latervet1]

Sassy Samba- it is true that most franchise studios dont feel like just a "training facility." that is because franchise studios are about more than just competitive dancing. they are also about social dancing and many of the "social things" that come with it. This is a good thing. there are many people in the world looking for and benefiting from a community of like interested people where then can belong and enjoy themselves. there are many independent studios that do the same. I dance at a franchise studio and I can guarantee you that my instructor cares about his students and their dancing. he has been there for years and i doubt he's leaving anytime soon. I'm not saying he would do it for free but he really enjoys what he does and what he brings to his students lives. I think your statements are less about independent vs franchise than they are simply about the studios you have gone too. I'm glad I know the truth so I dont have to believe in your propoganda. I hope others will take it with a grain of salt as well.

[wooh]

I think your statements are less about independent vs franchise than they are simply about the studios you have gone too.

Totally agree.

[DancingMommy]

What have I said that was offensive?

Echoing Samina and WW when I say that calling people who go to franchises "weird" is extremely offensive. I'd like you to back up that opinion with some objective analysis as to *why* they are weird. Think about it for a bit.

Some of my good friends are from franchised studios. It's where we met. If I recall correctly, DanceMentor (the owner of DF) started as a franchise instructor. So did a bucket-load of current and former competing pros - including some who either post or lurk here. The dancesport world is WAY TOO SMALL to be throwing those kinds of phrases around. You never know who is going to be judging your next competition... Stuff has a way of coming back to haunt you...

[samina]

and there are a *lot* of franchise judges, lol...

[fascination]

ain't that the truth...learned that also the hard way once upon a time...

[etp777]

So did a bucket-load of current and former competing pros - including some who either post or lurk here.

Just looking at results from Virginia last weekend, I can name at least 6 franchise couples who were in finals or winners of professional events. And that's just FA couples I know without looking at studios couples are from, and doesn't include AM couples. Plus the two representatives to blackpool for TA/Cabaret were both FA couples. So yeah, just a few currently competing pros. ;)

[DancingMommy]

and there are a *lot* of franchise judges, lol...

Try "most of them". ;-) And if they aren't currently with a franchise, they still are connected to one via friendships and longterm association...

Kind of like the "redneck family tree" in a way. I mean that in a totally affectionate way, lol. My former coach was former AMI and
three of my bosses were former AMI. One boss was the old dance partner of the owner of the AMI I took lessons from. Not *even* 6 degrees of separation. And one of my coworkers at the indy studio was former AMI and best man of one of my former coaches.

Let's all hold hands and sing "It's A Small World" because it really is...

[DancingMommy]

I am interested to talk to more former franchise instructors to find out what really goes on "behind the scenes". Wrong thread for it, but I wonder how many we have here.

I did not work directly for a franchise studio, but I worked for former franchise studio directors/employees. 99% of independents start out as franchises in my experience. Either directly or indirectly. It's rare to see an indy studio that hasn't been influenced for good or ill by the "franchise" mentality.

We'll start with Studio A. It was co-operated by an AMI director from out of state and a local guy. Somehow Vincent Bulger was involved and I spoke with him on the phone re "non-disclosure" and something else. Lovely gentleman IMO. The sales techniques at this studio were identical to the local AMI that I'd taken lessons from until the two co-operators left the studio after a tumultuous time. Our new "artistic director" (I guess that's what you'd call him) was an indy teacher who would come up from Florida and was former AMI through his dad's studio in SW Florida. That studio had gone indy from being AMI and had seen improvement once the franchise was dropped. I won't say there was ever a "sleaze factor" environment, but the original guys running the studio set off my "ick" radar just a little. Thankfully, I went to work there and not as a student.

After about a year at Studio A, I moved to Florida and Studio B. Again, run by former AMI instructors. The sales techniques were the same as the franchise and the owner was the former dance partner of the AMI franchisee that I started with as a student. Like I said it's a VERY small word. At this studio, I was asked to "wear shorter skirts so the guys will buy more lessons". Yeah. Riiiiight. From that day forward, I wore pants or long skirts. Because I'm ornery like that and I refuse to be pimped out. :evil:

Both studios had mandatory training sessions for all teachers to bring up their level so they didn't get into the problem of students being not far behind the teachers. In both studios, I with my short training to that point, was the third most "experienced" teacher in the place behond people with 20+ years experience.

One memorable experience at Studio B - which is indicative of the "hold 'em back" mentality is that during rehearsals for our studio showcase I and the other teacher were working with a couple and teaching them "Sliding Doors" for their swing routine. For showcases, it's typical to teach 1-2 levels above the "program" and students pay dearly for it. So we're merrily working along and Studio Owner storms over and in front of God and everybody starts a row over teaching them above their program... "That's not on their program!!!! What are you doing teaching that to them????" I quipped back jokingly "It is now [nervous laughter]" What else was I supposed to do, right? The studio was FULL of people and everyone was staring at our little group. It was SO awful that my couple nearly left the studio over it but only stayed because they liked *me* and it caused a whole group of my students to leave en masse when I left that studio not long after that. The boss later apologized to me for going off and being - in his words - a jack-[insert other word for donkey], but it really rang hollow and so when I was injured on the job and they refused to give me their insurance information to make a claim, that was IT for me and the "studio" mentality.

[samina]

Try "most of them". ;-) And if they aren't currently with a franchise, they still are connected to one via friendships and longterm association...

thanks for pointing this out... i was gonna say but...chose a more conservative comment.

when i discovered this fact, i was quite surprised. i hadn't realized...

[DancingMommy]

It was news to me, too, when I learned it long ago.

The thing is, it's never good to badmouth *anyone* in the dance industry because it's just so small.

It's like the saying about the face you bite off today may belong to the rear you have to kiss tomorrow... The dancer you badmouth today may be the person judging you at your next comp. ;-)

[Spitfire]

I've gone to almost every in my area, I'm in phx.

Plus my sister works at one (ams). So I hang out there sometimes.

The one on Indian School Rd.?

[fascination]

It was news to me, too, when I learned it long ago.

The thing is, it's never good to badmouth *anyone* in the dance industry because it's just so small.

It's like the saying about the face you bite off today may belong to the rear you have to kiss tomorrow... The dancer you badmouth today may be the person judging you at your next comp. ;-)
totally..the whole place is just ...well... incestuous...figuratively speaking...so if you can't be good for the sheer ethical merit...it is also just the wise thing...

[DancingMommy]

Better safe than sorry, right?

[fascination]

it's just easier(in some ways) to be a good person...then you never have to look over your shoulder...plus the fringe benefits of sleeping well at night and actually feeling good about yourself ;)

[suburbaknght]

I am interested to talk to more former franchise instructors to find out what really goes on "behind the scenes". Wrong thread for it, but I wonder how many we have here.
I'd be happy to share my experiences, which were largely positive. I think this is the right thread, or feel free to PM me.

[Stillharbor]

I currently dance in an AM studio and love it. I have never been to an independent studio, but some friends have talked about their experiences.

I have been to several AM comps and independent comps. The AM comps were definately more filled with more comeradarie. It seemed like people stuck about to watch and cheer on other dancers, not only from thier own studio, but also from other studios. Conversely, I was at several independent comps where dancers didn't even stick around to watch anyone else. They came, danced their heats, and left. No one supported any of the other dancers with the exception of 1 or 2 smaller groups. Also, I saw more politics happening at the independent comp than the AM. For example, people I KNOW I did better than (technically and artistically) were placed higher than I was b/c the judges knew them, had seen them many times before. Makes competing very discouraging...

As for actual technicalities, I didn't see much of a difference between different styles of the studios.

[Joe]

How do you KNOW?

[wonderwoman]

Stillharbor: It's because we are also in it for the people, for the social interaction, not just the dancing. I'm not making generalizations about the rest of the world, just the franchise studio world. It's a family environment. I go to see my friends just as much as I go to dance. When I first started I went to a showcase I wasn't even dancing in just to see all my friends dance.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I currently dance in an AM studio and love it. I have never been to an independent studio, but some friends have talked about their experiences.

I have been to several AM comps and independent comps. The AM comps were definately more filled with more comeradarie. It seemed like people stuck about to watch and cheer on other dancers, not only from thier own studio, but also from other studios. Conversely, I was at several independent comps where dancers didn't even stick around to watch anyone else. They came, danced their heats, and left. No one supported any of the other dancers with the exception of 1 or 2 smaller groups. Also, I saw more politics happening at the independent comp than the AM. For example, people I KNOW I did better than (technically and artistically) were placed higher than I was b/c the judges knew them, had seen them many times before. Makes competing very discouraging...

As for actual technicalities, I didn't see much of a difference between different styles of the studios.

Well, if you look for the social experience, then you'll probably find more of that at closed competitions. IME, people tend to stick around to watch people they know or pro events, or sometimes other events above their level, as learning experience.

[JANATHOME]

Having both expereinces.... 8 years at an independent studio, and now 3 or 4 years at a franchise, I can say absolutley that the franchise does work extra hard on making thier competition an "event" and helps to build relationships among the dancers. It really is a different expereince than an independent comp.

However, you are going to pay for this "extra service". That is fine if that is what you want as long as one knows what it is you are paying for. I myself love going to the franchise comps, even at the unbelievable cost, it is worth it to me and in my eyes dollars well spent.

At independent studios I think the competeitve dancers naturally and on thier own gravatate to other comp dancers and so that support is there, it is just that you create it and develop it on your own. Both are good, it really just comes down to what one wants, and what one wants to spend on each.

[toothbrushdiva]

I haven't read all 32 pages of this thread (awesome post by the way), so I have no idea if someone has answered the part of your post about the professional 2 dance events.

The separate events for newer professionals in franchise comps is created so they can have the opportunity to get their feet wet without competing against people who have done this for 10 years (think of putting a brand new Bronze student up against a Gold student who has danced for 10 years). Typically franchise comps will also have a Mixed Novice division for pros where there is a heat designated for one teacher with under a year's experience paired with another teacher with significant dance teaching experience (something like 3 years or more). This is once again to help the new dance teacher get their feet wet with the help of a more experienced teacher.

I used to work for a Fred Astaire, and while I can't speak for all Fred Astaire's, the one that I worked for required you to check out of each level before you could teach that level (for instance, you would have to check out of all of Bronze- checking out meaning taking a test with a qualified judge where you demonstrate all patterns from both lead and follow's perspective both with a partner and alone, before you could teach a Bronze student). In that way our quality of teaching was always very high.

I've also heard of studios requesting new teachers to compete having only worked at that studio for 3 weeks (could you imagine??!!). Clearly it would be incredibly cruel to put a new teacher like that in a competition against the best professionals in the industry, and his dancing in that competiton has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on his ability to teach.

hope this helps! :)

[latingal]

Welcome to DF toothbrushdiva!

[suburbaknght]

I used to work for a Fred Astaire, and while I can't speak for all Fred Astaire's, the one that I worked for required you to check out of each level before you could teach that level (for instance, you would have to check out of all of Bronze- checking out meaning taking a test with a qualified judge where you demonstrate all patterns from both lead and follow's perspective both with a partner and alone, before you could teach a Bronze student). In that way our quality of teaching was always very high.
That's not just FA. Most franchises use a similar system. Many (though not all) independent studios require their teachers to pass a certifying exam through an independent organization, such as ISTD or DVIDA.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

It looked like a good evening for exploration. At the time, I'd been to some 15 studios in my area, but still had yet to visit a franchise.

First stop was the Arthur Murray studio. It was Beginner Night. I walked inside to find a medium-sized floor packed with 60-70 beginners! Pretty much any indie studio I'd been to would have been lucky to field half those numbers. I spoke with the instructor staffing the front desk. Unfortunately, the system was strictly unit pricing with no way to pay for just the social. Quite understandable. Nevertheless, she invited me to stay for that evening, even asking me for a waltz. Not wanting to bend the rules, I declined, thanked her, and left behind the mass of beginners still twirling with that exuberance of the new beneath the mirror ball.

Next stop was the Fred Astaire studio. This studio had à la carte, but the owner waved me in without paying. I was hardly dressed for dancing, wearing a fleece jacket and sneakers. But the students would. Not. Let. Me. Sit. Down. Even if it were a dance for which I knew little more than a box and turn. Twice, I was coaxed from my seat by a lady whom I was later amazed to find was past 80 years. I was touched by their hospitality and was a little sad to leave, as I had my own home studio to return to.

It had been a fascinating evening. To discover that my area had two thriving communities, one independent, one franchise, yet each almost completely unaware of the other! Perhaps if the die had landed differently, I might, today, intead be just as happily established in a franchise studio. :)

[fascination]

hmmm...TC...interesting thread to resurrect...

[Terpsichorean Clod]

:shrug: It recently came up in conversation. :)

[wooh]

To discover that my area had two thriving communities, one independent, one franchise, yet each almost completely unaware of the other!

It's odd, I'm firmly in the local indie community. I'm horrible with names, but I recognize most of the local dancers. At least I think so until I see pics from the local AM or formerly FA studios, I'm thinking, "Who the heck are those people?"

[Terpsichorean Clod]

LOL :grin:

[Piggles]

As a student who recently left a franchise to enter the indie scene, I thought TC's comment about potentially being happily established in a franchise interesting.

For the most part, I was very happy at the franchise. I had lots of friends, good teachers, and plenty of goals to work towards. But I always wondered why people seemed to leave once they approached the full bronze level. And here are my observations from this one studio:

- Most people who walked in the door didn't really know what they wanted out of their dancing. As they progressed, some liked swing, others salsa, others AT, and dancers like myself who preferred competition. The studio had a very good social jack-of-all-trades teaching method, but focusing on what your passion was became difficult.

- There were lots of new students coming in, but the franchise was hard-pressed to keep them >6 months. Significant attrition happened at all levels. The students who stayed on through to silver tended to be weaker dancers (with a couple of notable exceptions). Stronger dancers seemed to leave (for various personal reasons). I found the only people I could practice my lesson-material with were 2 of the 7 teachers and none of the students.

- There was a negative undercurrent in the studio about regarding the level of the students. "If so-and-so is at that level, why aren't I there? Why do they get to go to that class and I don't" Their "check outs" were based on their perceived potential in the dancer and did not reflect the technical level.

What finally drove me away was the pressure I received from the owner. "You're a role model to the newer students so I expect you to mentor them". Followed by, "You support the newer students but you don't support the advanced students above you as much as I want". Followed by, "You don't support the staff as much as I want. Your questions about technique (done during the privacy of my lesson) are not acceptable". Pardon??? Did I just hear that I have to take one teacher's methods as gospel? Especially when that teacher admitted to learning old school techniques used 10-15 years ago???

So to conclude, I was happy in the franchise for a while (as are many of my friends still), but it was time to move on. I've been at the indie for nearly a year and no regrets yet.

[Piggles]

Just to clarify: this is just my observation of one particular studio and does not imply anything about franchises in general

[latervet1]

piggles- you were a student right-not a teacher and in no way were compensated for anything you did at the studio? I find his remarks completely unacceptable unless he was paying you.

[danceronice]

What finally drove me away was the pressure I received from the owner. "You're a role model to the newer students so I expect you to mentor them". Followed by, "You support the newer students but you don't support the advanced students above you as much as I want". Followed by, "You don't support the staff as much as I want. Your questions about technique (done during the privacy of my lesson) are not acceptable". Pardon??? Did I just hear that I have to take one teacher's methods as gospel? Especially when that teacher admitted to learning old school techniques used 10-15 years ago???

I think some attrition is to be expected with any expensive sport/hobby (people want different things, people find places that suit them better, it turns out not to be something they really want to do, they had a set goal like a wedding and they reached it, etc) but THIS is the part I'd find totally unacceptable, no matter what kind of studio it was. You're the customer and the student, not an employee. And if you are taking lessons in something, asking questions is a MUST. Someone who is discouraging questions from students has serious problems as an instructor.

I don't think that's a franchise thing. I think you ran into a bad teacher. (And I don't dance at the fanchises, never have, likely never will, but plenty of my teachers have worked for them and don't say things like that.)

[New in NY]

There were about 6 instructors at the local FADS when we enrolled. Now it's basically down to the two owners. My independent studio seems to be thriving, although they offer primarily group lessons, so it's perhaps not a fair comparison. I have to assume it's the economy. Anyone else's studio going through a similar situation?

[wonderwoman]

My current franchise studio is down to one guy and 3 girls. Needless to say my guy isn't always happy about this and his couples that he's had to pass off to one of the girls aren't either. He's one of few people I have met who do it as their main profession, many do it til they get done with college and find a job. actually that's the case w the girls too.

[New in NY]

Exactly - I can understand needing to cut down on the number of instructors due to loss of business, but if the studio is down to one male instructor, they are going to lose even more (female) clients. I take lessons as a couple and like the current teacher, but I do miss dancing with a pro male and occasionally taking solo lessons. And so much for the buddy teacher program that we were told was so valuable.

[etp777]

This isn't really on topic of franchises anymore, but general business. Anyway, in my experience it seems that studio owners who encourage their pros to treat the job as a career, with long term goals, etc, seem to have better luck keeping staff around than places where they look at it as a side job, or something to do while in school, etc. Though, obviously, I've only seen X amoutn of studios, can't judge for all of them. And there are a LOT of oother dynamics involved too

[Josh]

it seems that studio owners who encourage their pros to treat the job as a career, with long term goals, etc, seem to have better luck keeping staff around than places where they look at it as a side job, or something to do while in school, etc.

I can't imagine thinking of my profession as a "side job"--it's amazing to me how many "part timers" teach and claim to be experts at what they do. IMO, it demeans the profession and lowers the legitimacy of what it means to be a "dance teacher."

There are so many out there who call themselves professionals who have had ZERO real training, and teach more lessons in a week than they have taken in their entire lives. Really, how much can you teach before you actually have to learn something?? Sorry, it's just offensive the way some people I know treat their careers like a summer job--but that's just it I guess, they don't see it as a career, because they have no work ethic or desire to succeed or be achievers.

[JANATHOME]

Lately, I have noticed a large lack of priviate lessons at our FADS studio.

It is especially interesting because the studio is a few weeks away from a regional competition, yet many nights the floor is close to empty. Normally right before a comp the floor is jam packed. It is not because of lack of instuctors but lack of students.

We do use the floor quite a bit to practice and do rounds and at first we thought this is great having so much floor to ourselves. Thinking further though I thought this is bad. I need to be at a studio that can survive.

In my franchise experience I have found that instructors leave more often than at independents. We have seen a few instructors leave to open up thier own FADS studio. As many of the instructors are not initally US citizens, many leave our studio to go to another FADS studio in a climate that is not ...well New England. We are fortunate though at this studio when an instructor leaves or is getting ready to leave the owenrs replace the one leaving with another instuctor of similiar talent.

We have learned to accept this and take advantage of the instructor while they are there and then develop a new relationship with another instructor. For the many years we were instructed at an independent I hardly ever saw this happen and at least in my view, unique to the chains.

[fascination]

I can't imagine thinking of my profession as a "side job"--it's amazing to me how many "part timers" teach and claim to be experts at what they do. IMO, it demeans the profession and lowers the legitimacy of what it means to be a "dance teacher."

There are so many out there who call themselves professionals who have had ZERO real training, and teach more lessons in a week than they have taken in their entire lives. Really, how much can you teach before you actually have to learn something?? Sorry, it's just offensive the way some people I know treat their careers like a summer job--but that's just it I guess, they don't see it as a career, because they have no work ethic or desire to succeed or be achievers.
thank you for saying this...I find it to be a breath of freash air to hear it

[etp777]

I think you can find that in most any profession. Difference between a job and a career, a paycheck and a calling, however you want to define it. And words I use often depend on how cynical I'm feeling about my job at the time. :) But after working same career since I was 16, and workign my butt off to stay at top of my game, can absolutely identify with your feelings on those who don't, Josh.

That all being said, you couldn't pay me enough to get me to be a dance teacher. :D Even if I was qualified for it, which I'm clearly not

[Joyful Dancer]

I can't imagine thinking of my profession as a "side job"--it's amazing to me how many "part timers" teach and claim to be experts at what they do. IMO, it demeans the profession and lowers the legitimacy of what it means to be a "dance teacher."

There are so many out there who call themselves professionals who have had ZERO real training, and teach more lessons in a week than they have taken in their entire lives. Really, how much can you teach before you actually have to learn something?? Sorry, it's just offensive the way some people I know treat their careers like a summer job--but that's just it I guess, they don't see it as a career, because they have no work ethic or desire to succeed or be achievers.


This so needed to be said. I know for a fact/personally, that you make and will continue to make tremendous personal sacrifices for your students Josh. That's one of the main reason many of us only take private lessons and only take them from you. There's some lessons to be learned from what Josh is saying. I only hope we, your students, have expressed our appreaciation and not taken you, your talent, and work ethic, for granted. KUDOS to you:applause:

[TinyDancer109]

Lately, I have noticed a large lack of priviate lessons at our FADS studio.

It is especially interesting because the studio is a few weeks away from a regional competition, yet many nights the floor is close to empty. Normally right before a comp the floor is jam packed. It is not because of lack of instuctors but lack of students.


This is really interesting to me because My FADS studio doesn't even offer group lessons... because they "believe you can only get your money's worth out of private lessons"... (as an aside, although i generally agree with private lessons being far more advatageous than group, i do think there are benefits in group lessons for beginner dancers)

... funny, i guess that is a studio policy, rather than a franchise rule.

[etp777]

Definitely just studio policy. :) My main FA runs about 5 classes per week, my other studio runs 10-15. So not a franchise rule at all. :)

[New in NY]

My FA studio also offers only privates.

[wonderwoman]

It's worth it if you're a person who doesn't like to go out, that is, like me you enjoy hanging out at one regular place where... Cheers theme song comes to mind. lol

If you're like me, too, you'd rather spend your disposable income on activities that make you feel happy rather than STUFF.

'Franchises versus independent teacher' is sort of like.. guided tour of Kauai with a scheduled itinerary versus wandering around the island on your own. I did the latter and hated trying to figure out what to do next!

[nimmity]

'Franchises versus independent teacher' is sort of like.. guided tour of Kauai with a scheduled itinerary versus wandering around the island on your own. I did the latter and hated trying to figure out what to do next!

This is a great piece of advice.
We have so many comments here about students experiences.
I'm currently considering teaching within a franchise (becoming one of the dreaded 6week wonders, although I have been a student for a few years) and was wondering what the differences in experiences are like for teachers.

[waltzgirl]

'Franchises versus independent teacher' is sort of like.. guided tour of Kauai with a scheduled itinerary versus wandering around the island on your own. I did the latter and hated trying to figure out what to do next!

Not necessarily true. Many independent studios and teachers use a structured syllabus. Mine uses DVIDA and if you really want the itinerary, you can buy the syllabus books and videos (something franchises generally won't let you do).

[Bailamosdance]

'Franchises versus independent teacher' is sort of like.. guided tour of Kauai with a scheduled itinerary versus wandering around the island on your own. I did the latter and hated trying to figure out what to do next!

I dunno. A good teacher anywhere teaches with a plan, a syllabus, and your goals in mind. In a franchise, you actually have a more narrow vision of dance, since the reasoning in a franchise is that the student has less of a clue, true, but in this day of the internets LOL it is no longer a 'secret' what you need to do to become a dancer. And remember the qualifications of a good teacher have nothing to do with WHERE they teach, but have everything to do with HOW they teach you.

If your teacher makes you feel 'adrift' chances are that they either are unaware of it or are not the teacher for you. Beginners choose teachers based on their looks, bedside manner, and price. More advanced students choose teachers based upon how well the teacher communicates the knowledge to the student and care little about the other things. Pro-am students, to be sure, need to match up height / weight / goals I suppose, but even then a bad teacher who looks good is no match for a good teacher that teaches well.

[dancingirldancing]

Structured syllabus assumes that everyone learns at the same pace and want the same thing (eg. do medals).

I went to a franchise studio when I first arrived in Australia always knowing that I want to do competition having danced for many many years overseas.

They teach me boxed rumba which is completely useless in Australian competition scene.

I still have to do newcomer 'syllabus'.

I lasted about 5 lesson which I have to 'pre-purchase' at the start.

I now learn from highly reputable dancesport coaches who never really have 'plans' or 'syllabus' about what he/she is going to teach me but adjust the coaching based on my progress, competition results and elevation, and partnership situations.

This seems to work best for us.

[samina]

Not necessarily true. .
i quite agree. a quality educator is a quality educator... and indies seem to me to have more freedom in how they customize their instruction for each student. that's my take. and my preference.

[waltzgirl]

i quite agree. a quality educator is a quality educator... and indies seem to me to have more freedom in how they customize their instruction for each student. that's my take. and my preference.

Me, too. After all, a syllabus is just steps and, especially for a follower, the sooner you stop dancing steps and just start dancing, the better.

Sometimes, I wish there were a technique syllabus, but since its last page would be infinity, I guess that's not practical.

[etp777]

a syllabus, whether fa/am or dvida, is just a tool, and is only as good as the pro.

[Angel HI]

'Franchises versus independent teacher' is sort of like.. guided tour of Kauai with a scheduled itinerary versus wandering around the island on your own. I did the latter and hated trying to figure out what to do next!My schools have used an independent syllabi made of the best of everyone else's. We did get it approved by the major powers-that-be. Point #2 is that for every person who is wondering what to do next, there is one who already knows.

[dancingirldancing]

'Franchises versus independent teacher' is sort of like.. guided tour of Kauai with a scheduled itinerary versus wandering around the island on your own. I did the latter and hated trying to figure out what to do next!


Only true for newbies I guess ... for seasonal travellers guided tours can be annoying and irritating as when one wants to spend more time time on the beach one often find oneself being hearalded to the gift shop.

[Josh]

lol!

[Chris Stratton]

I would agree that the problem with a syllabus as a plan for study is that all it lists are steps, so if you follow it you may end up learning a lot about steps but fairly little about dancing.

Obviously, each figure presents challenges and some of these can be a way to introduce key skills and concepts. But a course built around skills and concepts should probably list those on its syllabus, not the steps that accomplish them.

So for example, instread of

week 3: Quarter turn and progressive chasse

we might have

week 3: Upswings and downswings, action across the body used when stepping outside partner

[tangotime]

So for example, instread of

week 3: Quarter turn and progressive chasse

we might have

week 3: Upswings and downswings, action across the body used when stepping outside partner




The assumption has always been made, that anyone teaching the Intern.style, would inlcude that in their lesson presentation .

Its a fairly widely accepted premise, as you know, that ALL technique books/step lists , are only a guide. Thats not to say an addendum should not be added, but in the "eyes" of the powers that be, it would seem redundant.

The reality of the situation.. many do not go into in depth analysis, even when posessing the knowledge.

[latervet1]

I dance at an AM studio (so very rigid syllabus) but if you look at your syllabus pages (which we are encouraged to do) under each step it lists the techniques that the step is supposed to introduce to you (such as swing/sway, CBM, improving frame, body contac etc) and then lists the variations of the step. so even tho technically the syllabus is learning steps- if done as intended- it is really technique.

[Chris Stratton]

but if you look at your syllabus pages (which we are encouraged to do) under each step it lists the techniques that the step is supposed to introduce to you (such as swing/sway, CBM, improving frame, body contac etc) and then lists the variations of the step.

As does any syllabus in its "book" form, vs. the simple list you often see.

The problem is that this easily degenerates (anywhere) into the teacher reminding the students to use CBM.

What's really needed to teach the art of dancing is a concerted effort to communicate what a concept like CBM is and especially what it isn't, what it feels and looks like, what it does for the partnership, literally how you do it and what you need to be careful not to do when doing it.

To teach this way, you need to be free to pick figures that illustrate the day's concepts, rather than an "oh, by the way" on the techniques needed for the day's figures.

It's not a franchise problem but a general one - whatever gets listed in bold type at the top tends to end up being what drives the agenda, and if that is step names then steps are what are learned.

[TinyDancer109]

Its a fairly widely accepted premise, as you know, that ALL technique books/step lists , are only a guide. Thats not to say an addendum should not be added, but in the "eyes" of the powers that be, it would seem redundant.

The reality of the situation.. many do not go into in depth analysis, even when posessing the knowledge.

Agreed.

and in response to the comments made here about franchise syllabi not working according to each student's unique situation, you are wrong. It really depends on your teacher and his/her quality.

As many of you already know, I dance at a FADS studio. I got there with dance experience already under my belt. My teacher NEVER for a moment held me back. He often would skip less challenging figures and go directly to the more advanced ones. We then worked on technique. We work on technique 95% of the time in our lessons. i have few lessons where i am actually learning new steps.

More recently I have been learning new figures, but only because i have moved on to silver since he feels i have solid bronze technical knowledge. I still do not know a number of the beginner bronze figures, but in a social/practice party, i am able to follow.

[Chris Stratton]

Its great that you have a teacher willing and free to personalize things. However, once you leave the guided tour and instead spend time getting to really know the locals, you become cut off from both the advantages and disadvantages of what the tour director planned. Once off-formula it all comes down to the abilities of your teacher, same as anywhere else.

[suburbaknght]

As does any syllabus in its "book" form, vs. the simple list you often see.

The problem is that this easily degenerates (anywhere) into the teacher reminding the students to use CBM.

What's really needed to teach the art of dancing is a concerted effort to communicate what a concept like CBM is and especially what it isn't, what it feels and looks like, what it does for the partnership, literally how you do it and what you need to be careful not to do when doing it.

To teach this way, you need to be free to pick figures that illustrate the day's concepts, rather than an "oh, by the way" on the techniques needed for the day's figures.

It's not a franchise problem but a general one - whatever gets listed in bold type at the top tends to end up being what drives the agenda, and if that is step names then steps are what are learned.

Actually I thought that was one of the strength's of the AM syllabus. In addition to the steps, the AM syllabus includes a list of 28 core techniques (i.e. timing, frame, CBM, rise and fall, etc.) that go into dance and the levels at which they are taught. Some, like timing, are taught at the very beginning, while others, such as head and arm styling are acknowledged and introduced early but teaching the full technique occurs later. Furthermore, the order of techniques taught is quite logical, beginning with the bottom of the feet, and working up through the body with the feet themselves, knees, hips, torso, arms, head, and finally the mind, the premise being that what is below affects everything above (this is not to say the upper body is completely neglected when a student begins, but the focus will be on the lower body).

Because these techniques are consistent across each of the dances in when they're introduced, each dance chooses figures that emphasizes the same techniques so the student is constantly having the correct technique being reinforced. The syllabus goes beyond this and then chooses patterns that maintain a running theme throughout, such as basic movements and patterns (bronze 1), pivoting actions (bronze 2), etc. The result is an incredibly cohesive syllabus that practically teaches itself. When the syllabus is followed, that is. A teacher who hasn't mastered the techniques being emphasized him or herself, or who doesn't understand the purpose and methodology of the syllabus, will end up jumping around in terms of both patterns and the "Tuesday, it must be contra-body movement," aspect of technique.

While I haven't done as in-depth an analysis of ISTD, NDTA, or FADS syllabi - the former due to lack of time, the latter lack of access - I have noticed that DVIDA has a similar methodology, though it lacks much of AM's internal cohesion.

The difference between a bad teacher and a good teacher is obvious to most everyone. The difference between a good teacher and a great teacher is that the good teacher is inefficient while the great teacher wastes nothing. A good teacher will teach his or her student as best as he or she knows how, but may flounder for any number of reasons; insufficient mastery of the material is the most common cause (i.e. being a bad dancer), but others include an inability to convey the information so the student understands it, being overly or underly critical, unable to keep the student interested (being a bad salesperson), or simply not understanding the material (not understanding the use of the syllabus).

A great teacher, however, has a process for teaching his or her student. The great teacher knows how to analyze a student's dancing and adapt his or her standard process to meet the student's goals and address the student's strengths and weaknesses. Such a teacher will not abide strictly by the syllabus, teaching a figure or technique simply because it comes next, but will be aware of the figure or technique's context and adjust when and how the material is presented in order to match the student.

I make no secret of the fact that I'm a proponent of teacher examinations and certifications. One reason is I've never seen anyone understand how a syllabus was meant to be used until they've studied it in this context. There's simply too much material, packed too densely. It wasn't until I began studying for my AM junior bronze certification that I understood how the syllabus worked, at which point the quality of my lessons improved imensely (as judged by the quality of my students' dancing after said lessons), and I can say the same now regarding DVIDA.

[danceronice]

To me, the word "sylabus" means "a list of skills, concepts, steps [in a dance context] and the level at which they are introduced." It's not meant to tell you in detail what they are, how to teach them, or how FAST each student should be learning them. Like if you ever read a state DoEd standards sylabus, each phase does not explain HOW to teach a concept, it says "In third grade, students will learn X, Y, and Z." There's no ancillary materials telling you how to teach it. It's just a map, not the compass and the tourist guide. The assumption is the teacher has the materials and knows how to present them, and will get it done in that year.

Having a sylabus doesn't mean a dance teacher is just going to say "This is a rumba box" and show you the step, because that's first on the list, with no explanation of anything other than where to put your feet. Some teachers might do that, but it's not because they're franchise or independent or have a sylabus. It's because they're not teaching you to dance and presumably aren't very good teachers.

Every teacher, no matter what they're teaching, has to have a plan of how they're going to do it. For teachers who teach things in a small group or one-on-one setting that makes for a lot of work, as you have to gauge each student's progress separately (while in a classroom, "This week we're studying the Civil War" works because EVERYONE has to learn it and might as well do it now). Just because a student is or thinks they are "advanced" doesn't mean you go in and say "What should we do today?" A sylabus gives them a general reference point.

Plus if you're not competing in open levels, it's just a good idea to know what is and isn't permitted. That's really the only reason I have any idea what steps are what level.

[Chris Stratton]

While the international syllabi have the fewest figures of any of the choices, I would maintain that nearly fifty percent of even those figures are counterproductive diversions from the process of actually learning to dance well. That doesn't mean they should be deleated, just that they should be treated as optional rather than required when the goal is to gain real capability. They can indeed by very interesting to come back and make dancing out of later - but a course of study should be designed to get people dancing and progressing in skills of long range utility, not as an obstacle course of obscure challenges, many of which are wisely avoided by more advanced dancers in favor of things that simply work better.

[Josh]

I would maintain that nearly fifty percent of even those figures are counterproductive diversions from the process of actually learning to dance well.

Care to give a sampling--maybe just in bronze even? I can think of a few I tend to skip in bronze but maybe only 20% or 30%.

Waltz- reverse pivot, back lock, basic weave, closed impetus
Tango - open reverse inline, RF rock
Quickstep - pivot turn, 4-6 natural, closed impetus
Foxtrot - natural weave is last but still useful IMO

[tangotime]

Care to give a sampling--maybe just in bronze even? I can think of a few I tend to skip in bronze but maybe only 20% or 30%.

Tango - RF rock




Foxtrot - natural weave



These 2 are, I believe , things that should be taught.. particularly the Rock in Tango.. a foundational figure

The rest.. I agree with

[Chris Stratton]

I'd probably initially bypass most of silver waltz and foxtrot, with the exception of open impetus & weave and reverse wave. And the top spin, but for floorcraft rather than by plan.

And the natural weave is fairly logical and easy to sort out, but by no means required.

[danceronice]

I'm fairly sure that the routines I do for Rhythm don't incorporate everything on the sylabus (I only know the ISTD and I haven't looked at it in a while.) I don't know about Smooth (I can barely tell where one figure ends and the next begins there anyway), but I'm pretty sure it also doesn't. I haven't encountered any teachers (unless NP is going to spring it on me for Latin, but that's not the impression I got from the first lesson) who just check the boxes next to the steps and say done. But then I haven't danced at a franchise and all my pros so far have been teaching for a long time and have their own "systems."

[wooh]

Both my instructors used to run franchise schools. They know the syllabus stuff backwards and forwards. (One of them supposedly even created some of the gold figures.) It's a framework, an outline. It can be used well or used badly. It's up to the teacher/student involved. When I write a 10 page paper, I create an outline first. If I submitted the outline, that would be a bad paper. If I write with bad grammar, stupid ideas, then that's a bad paper. But if I use some great writing skills, I can write a great paper based off the outline.

[pygmalion]

I heart this thread. IIRC, it was hot and heavy around the time I joined DF. lol. Some things never change.

My take?

There are some great studios -- some franchise, some independent.
There are some really rotten studios -- some franchise, some independent.
There are some straight business practices and some fraudulent ones.


Caveat emptor. And what is the Latin for "good teachers, stand up and be counted?" lol.

I do wish that there was more readily available info to prevent innocent folks from blowing their life's savings. But I also have to credit the internet and places like DF for putting the info out there. It's up to the student to ask questions. The bad thing about dance is that so many people (especially older people) seek it when they're in a time of emotional need and can't see straight. *shrug*


My bottom line these days? (Yes. I know what I posted almost seven years ago. ) Look for a dance teacher the same way you'd look for an oncologist. Ask lots of questions, take ownership of your life. And always get a second opinion. lol.


(No idea what's written in the thread immediately above, btw. Too lazy. :oops: )

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Discussion has been copied here: Syllabus design and goals (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=36383). :)

[pygmalion]

Huh? Guess I shoulda read the thread. :lol:

[Ray Sison]

I heart this thread. IIRC, it was hot and heavy around the time I joined DF. lol. Some things never change.

My take?

There are some great studios -- some franchise, some independent.
There are some really rotten studios -- some franchise, some independent.
There are some straight business practices and some fraudulent ones.


Caveat emptor. And what is the Latin for "good teachers, stand up and be counted?" lol.

I do wish that there was more readily available info to prevent innocent folks from blowing their life's savings. But I also have to credit the internet and places like DF for putting the info out there. It's up to the student to ask questions. The bad thing about dance is that so many people (especially older people) seek it when they're in a time of emotional need and can't see straight. *shrug*


My bottom line these days? (Yes. I know what I posted almost seven years ago. ) Look for a dance teacher the same way you'd look for an oncologist. Ask lots of questions, take ownership of your life. And always get a second opinion. lol.


(No idea what's written in the thread immediately above, btw. Too lazy. :oops: )

Good points! When all is said and done, like someone once said (at least on these lines), "No generalization is worth a darn--not even this one..."

[TangoRocks]

OK, I know I am coming to this thread late (37 pages since 2003? Glad I'm a fast reader!) but I'd like to share my franchise experience as well.

The Good:
For a brand newcomer with absolutely no dance experience whatsoever (like yours truly circa '05) a franchise, with the proper teacher, can be the best thing that happens to him/her. Having got up the courage to learn dancing, I would have been intimidated in most independents (or at least the ones I've seen around here) and the structured syllabus is quite a good idea when you don't know what you are doing with your feet, let alone with your body. The social aspect is usually very good, supportive and unlike the independents around in my area, you do not need to be a couple (or assigned a random partner that you have to stick with throughout a set of group lessons) to learn dancing. As a more experienced dancer, I no longer get a lot of benefit (dancing-wise) from group lessons or parties, but the tripartite methodology of private-group-practice party was a heaven sent when I was starting out.

The Bad
The high cost of entry and maintenance. Some antiquated syllabi in rapidly evolving dances like salsa, swing etc. that are quite useless if you wanted to go outside the franchise environment for social dancing. The six-week wonder dance instructors that are billed to unsuspecting newbies at the same unit cost as the seasoned, experienced teachers.

The Ugly
The sales tactics. Being made to feel like you have to keep buying this, participating in that, joining the other, which all cost non-trivial amounts of money. The excessively strict non-fraternization policies. (note that I am not advocating dating your private instructor or marrying them, although I have actually seen that happen at non-franchise studios)

So, I've been a mostly satisfied franchise studio customer until very recently when my teacher left the studio, but I have also taken lessons at independent studios for swing/lindy and attended non-franchise dance events in various locations. At present, I can see more clearly, and my franchise student experience actually taught me what I like (Tango, Foxtrot, Quickstep, Mambo, Samba) what I don't (Salsa, Bachata, Two Step) and what I need to go elsewhere to get satisfied (Lindy/Swing/Argentine Tango) I have also traveled across the US and Canada and sampled other studios in the franchise and have seen they had different levels between them so I can't condemn or praise the franchise as a whole.

That said, I think I am now ready for the next stage in my dancing... :)

[mop6686]

I was working with at a top 5 school within a very popular franchise and left recently to join an independent studio. Here are my experiences:

Franchise schools can be an amazing experience for students and teachers. IMO, the teacher training in unparalleled. I feel that the lengthy syllabi has it's ups and downs. The amount and complexity of the patterns is great for the teachers, but I found that many students could not lead most of the variations, they were just executing a pattern that the follower could recognize. This can be disastrous when students try to go out social dancing.

I agree that it can be a lot of pressure on students to stay part of a franchise, but that's how it works. I was trained to make the experience in the studio so irresistible that people would sacrifice other pleasures to pay for dancing. And that's part of why I left. At one point I was sat in the "closing room" with my boss as she tried to sell a $1000 wedding program to a couple who finally admitted that they were buying their wedding rings at walmart.

I also see a lot lacking at the independent studio I'm with. Teachers arrive late and are less than dedicated. There are teachers who've been dancing for more years than I have and I far exceed them in all areas of dancing (leading, technique, etc). It's not that they couldn't be the best, it's just not a priority. There's also a lack of passion for the students and the young teachers tend to gravitate towards the young students, which has caused a severe rift.

I'm definitely glad I started at a franchise, but I don't want to end there.

[nimmity]

Franchise schools can be an amazing experience for students and teachers. IMO, the teacher training in unparalleled.

I'm definitely glad I started at a franchise, but I don't want to end there.


This was really helpful thank you.
I'm considering starting out as an instructor and am looking at both independent and franchise studios. I know that I will need a lot of teacher training and am trying to work out where best to go to get it.

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

LMAO I used to own a franchised dance studio. It was amazing!!! As soon as we stopped being a franchise, all of us went from being weird sleezbags to perfectly normal gentlemen. To top that, the facility itself changed. The next morning when we arrived at work, the place didn't look like a factory anymore --it turned into a training facility. Packages became nonexistent.

I just really can't believe how long we were under that franchise company's spell. Thank goodness we saw the light. Changing our label was all we had to do.
Interesting- All you had to do was stop being a franchise to stop being
weird sleezebags and no longer a factory but a training facility where packages became nonexistent. Interesting-- when this was written.

[fascination]

probably, if this is personal, it is best to take it up with Easy via pm ...particularly as he is not on often and this is a very old post

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

probably, if this is personal, it is best to take it up with Easy via pm ...particularly as he is not on often and this is a very old post
Nazar will notice Thanks though

[fascination]

really my point is that if it is a personal thing it will be best for it to stay that way...particularly since the poster isn't around to respond to you in all likely hood...and conversations that would be specific to that particular circumstance are only useful in the abstract as they pertain to the OP, not as they pertain to one poster's scenario, particularly one who is not on much......but as long as the thread stays on topic...it's all good

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

really my point is that if it is a personal thing it will be best for it to stay that way...particularly since the poster isn't around to respond to you in all likely hood...and conversations that would be specific to that particular circumstance are only useful in the abstract as they pertain to the OP, not as they pertain to one poster's scenario, particularly one who is not on much......but as long as the thread stays on topic...it's all good
I do appreciate your concern. The point I was making is that it's all public knowledge so it's not personal and can be commented on in any way anyone would like too. It's been brought up as general conversation

[Larinda McRaven]

Actually no, you can't go around here on DF calling people or thier studios weird sleezebags. Please don't do that again.

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

Actually no, you can't go around here on DF calling people or thier studios weird sleezebags. Please don't do that again.
I was repeating someone else's post. I agree with you Larinda.It should never happen with students. That was my exact point. Done

[fascination]

MFD...easy was making a point within answering the OP...my current point which I want to make sure you get...my only reason for repeating it....is that we don't let threads for reasons that have nothing to do with the OP get re-opened for local and private purposes...that is all I am saying...whatever you are caring to refer to or need to resurrect is foreign to most people on the forum we do have history of limiting that if it gets to personal...and that will be the call of the staff....I hope that is clear....and if it isn't we can explore it further via the staff mailbox rather than on this thread which is about general perceptions WRT franchises..because it truly serves no purpose to speculate or resurrect Easy's old post on his specific circumstance when he isn't here to address it...so thanks for cooperating...lets move along....

[MidwestDancingGuy]

This is my first time posting on this forum. I feel the need to speak out, and I thought this might be the appropriate thread. (I haven't really been lurking around the forum very long, so I might be wrong.)

I recently signed up to take private lessons at the local Arthur Murray. I guess I have improved rather quickly, and my instructor feels that I should go to Superama in Las Vegas. However, when I was told the price, my jaw nearly hit the floor. The price to go to the 2010 Superama was quoted to me as being more than $11,000!!! Not only that, but that price doesn't even include registration for the individual dances (they are $40 each)! Although I do have to admit, the manager who was trying to sell me into going to Vegas said that only one other student from our school had signed up to go this year, so I guess there wasn't exactly a lot of people to spread around the costs... but still... a 5-digit price tag?!?!

Is it just me, or does that price seem outrageously stratospheric? I've read other people on this forum saying that Superama cost something like $4,500 a few years ago, but one of the students in my school said that she went to Vegas last year, and it cost her in the $8,000 range. Is the economy doing so bad as to warrant a more than $3,000 increase in the price over the course of one year?

[TinyDancer109]

I dance at a FADS studio and to go to our nationals in orlando, it normally costs me about $10,000. That includes all 70 of my dance heats (i.e. all of my individual dances which cost about the same as yours) and some championships and scholarships. This does not include hotel/food/flight.

A lot of people don't do 70 heats though so it would be less for other people and probably round out to be about $10,000 for everything except flight.

If the comp is a local regional comp, it will probably cost you more around $5,000.

[3wishes]

Welcome MidwestDancingGuy! I did dance with an AM studio for over two years and took part in several of the "matches" as well as the competitions. However, there is a point to draw when it came to price tags like that, without going into huge detail - as much as I liked the social community of my studio - I went to Independent teacher/studio and drastically cut my competition costs by doing so, there are ways to compete in an AM event without that ridiculous price tag. I will PM (private message) you.

[fascination]

This is my first time posting on this forum. I feel the need to speak out, and I thought this might be the appropriate thread. (I haven't really been lurking around the forum very long, so I might be wrong.)

I recently signed up to take private lessons at the local Arthur Murray. I guess I have improved rather quickly, and my instructor feels that I should go to Superama in Las Vegas. However, when I was told the price, my jaw nearly hit the floor. The price to go to the 2010 Superama was quoted to me as being more than $11,000!!! Not only that, but that price doesn't even include registration for the individual dances (they are $40 each)! Although I do have to admit, the manager who was trying to sell me into going to Vegas said that only one other student from our school had signed up to go this year, so I guess there wasn't exactly a lot of people to spread around the costs... but still... a 5-digit price tag?!?!

Is it just me, or does that price seem outrageously stratospheric? I've read other people on this forum saying that Superama cost something like $4,500 a few years ago, but one of the students in my school said that she went to Vegas last year, and it cost her in the $8,000 range. Is the economy doing so bad as to warrant a more than $3,000 increase in the price over the course of one year?
I do not dance with a cheap instructor by any means and that is outrageous...in my view

[DL]

Is it just me, or does that price seem outrageously stratospheric?

Putting aside the actual dollar amount, do you think you'd get good value for the money if you spent it that way?

Personally, my answer would be "no". I'm trying to figure out how many *years* of dancing I would enjoy for that amount at my own current rate of dance spending; or alternatively, what difference that amount would make in, say, my next car.

[MidwestDancingGuy]

... or alternatively, what difference that amount would make in, say, my next car.

Yeah, $10k is the difference between, say, a compact, like a basic Ford Focus, and a really nice mid-size sedan, like a fully-equipped Toyota Camry.

[DL]

Yeah, $10k is the difference between, say, a compact, like a basic Ford Focus, and a really nice mid-size sedan, like a fully-equipped Toyota Camry.

...or even between not having a car and having a new (albeit low-end) car that will last for 10 years.

[Josh]

I guess I have improved rather quickly, and my instructor feels that I should go to Superama in Las Vegas.


Your instructor may feel that you have improved, and you may have, and if so congratulations! However, dance studios and teachers have been known to ask students, even brand new ones, to participate in events whether they have improved or not, if they can ask a big price for it. I'm just being real and trying to give you a dose of reality.

The price to go to the 2010 Superama was quoted to me as being more than $11,000!!! Not only that, but that price doesn't even include registration for the individual dances (they are $40 each)!

$11K with NO entries? Why not ask for a price breakdown? You are the customer, and you have a right to know within some reasonable level of specificity where your money is going. Just get a general idea. I do this for students if they like for any competition. I can almost guarantee that they will not like being asked this and will try to get around the issue, but maybe not.

Is it just me, or does that price seem outrageously stratospheric?

Yes, even for me, and I don't blink at a $5K price tag for a pro/am competition.

But at the end of the day, the question for you is, will the money you spend be less than what you receive in returned value? For some competitors, $200 is a lot of money, and a relatively inexpensive pro/am comp at $2K is a lot of money. For those who spend $5K at a pro/am comp, your eventual $14K or so price tag will seen astronomical. But at the end of the day, only you can tell you how to spend your money, and you must decide if it's worth it for you personally.

[Piggles]

The price to go to the 2010 Superama was quoted to me as being more than $11,000!!! Not only that, but that price doesn't even include registration for the individual dances (they are $40 each)!

Is it just me, or does that price seem outrageously stratospheric? I've read other people on this forum saying that Superama cost something like $4,500 a few years ago, but one of the students in my school said that she went to Vegas last year, and it cost her in the $8,000 range. Is the economy doing so bad as to warrant a more than $3,000 increase in the price over the course of one year?

Hi Midwest, I used to compete pro-Am at Arthur Murray and ran into an interesting situation that might shed some light for you.

I went to Superama the last year it was in New Orleans before being moved to Vegas (Oct 2008 I think). I believe the base price my studio charged was somewhere between $4500-$5500 USD. This price included my registration, accommodations, meals, teacher expenses, program book, and participation placque. I had to pay for additional fees such as entries and airfare. The total cost of the comp (excluding airfare) was ~$7300. I was frustrated with the price, but my studio would not allow my teacher to compete at a non-Arthur Murray comp. So be it.

Fastforward a few months. One of the ladies I competed against in New Orleans came to visit my studio as a guest and came out with us after the party for a social drink. She asked me point blank how much I paid for the comp (she was very direct, no wiggle room on this question) so I told her. Unfortunately it spoiled her night because like you, she was quoted a price in the $10K range and paid it.

Concerned that I might have caused some tension between the studios, I spoke with the manager of my studio and apologized. What she told me is that each studio is responsible for setting their own prices. This makes some sense given that some communities are more willing/able to spend money on hobbies than others. Her advice to me was not to worry about it; part of being an owner is determing the price that your students are willing to pay for a service. So in other words, your studio is charging a particular base-fee for Superama, but that doesn't mean that other students within the franchise are paying the same amount. Some may pay more, some less.

Today, I am no longer a student at Arthur Murray. I compete through an independent teacher and find that my comp expenses are significantly lower.

[Warren J. Dew]

...or even between not having a car and having a new (albeit low-end) car that will last for 10 years.

Or keeping your nice, two year old car and trading it in for a new one of the same model, which a lot of people also do.

Personally, I'd rather spend the money on lessons rather than on attending a single event, but if I had a lot more money I might feel differently. From the perspective of yearly costs, lots of people spend many times that each year on their dancing.

[Arrion]

To be fair, $40 per dance for the registration fees is low, so it sounds like the $11,000 includes all of the studio and instructor's actual profit. It might be a reasonable deal if you were going to dance 100+ heats. Of course, that jacks up the total cost even more.

Independent comps are much cheaper. And since less of the cost is in the up front package, it's easier to compete more often and do a relatively small number of heats per comp which I greatly prefer.

[Warren J. Dew]

Concerned that I might have caused some tension between the studios, I spoke with the manager of my studio and apologized. What she told me is that each studio is responsible for setting their own prices. This makes some sense given that some communities are more willing/able to spend money on hobbies than others.

Their expenses can differ, too. Some studios may send more employees per student, for example. Also, while the price may not have included your air fare, it had to cover the studio employees' air fare, which could obviously differ depending on studio location.

[Josh]

Even in non-franchised studios, I have experienced "spectator packages" costing huge amounts of money, say $2000 for a couple of days at a comp, where the comp charged about $150 total in tickets, food could be had for $100 a day, and the hotel charged $200 per night. Just going to the competition's web site would have yielded a total cost of maybe $800. (just throwing out round numbers here)

And in this scenario, the studio provided literally nothing other than the "privilege" of having the students who were "spectating" be able to sit with the studio at the event. This is the kind of practice that has given many dance studios a bad name.

[wooh]

Your instructor may feel that you have improved, and you may have, and if so congratulations! However, dance studios and teachers have been known to ask students, even brand new ones, to participate in events whether they have improved or not, if they can ask a big price for it. I'm just being real and trying to give you a dose of reality.



I always see the posts from new people, and they were told by their instructors how fast they're learning, and what a natural they are! Strangely enough, I learned sooooo fast in the beginning too!

I've always wondered, has ANYONE been told when they first started, "You really learn quite slowly, you don't have much talent. Perhaps you should spend a little less on your dancing. No, no! Don't take a private lesson. You learn so slowly, that would be a waste. Go on the studio cruise? Nooooo, I think you should save your money. You want to give us $20k and compete at the UberExpensive Competition of Googillions of Dollars? Nooo, I think you should stick with our $15 group class."
:banana::banana:

[kckc]

I always see the posts from new people, and they were told by their instructors how fast they're learning, and what a natural they are! Strangely enough, I learned sooooo fast in the beginning too!

I've always wondered, has ANYONE been told when they first started, "You really learn quite slowly, you don't have much talent. Perhaps you should spend a little less on your dancing. No, no! Don't take a private lesson. You learn so slowly, that would be a waste. Go on the studio cruise? Nooooo, I think you should save your money. You want to give us $20k and compete at the UberExpensive Competition of Googillions of Dollars? Nooo, I think you should stick with our $15 group class."
:banana::banana:

snort

So glad I wasn't drinking anything...

[fascination]

omg...that was my EXACT....EXACT,,,thought when I read wooh's post as well

[pygmalion]

[/digression alert]

No offense to anyone (now you know I'm about to be offensive, right? *grin* ) But this is why I've chosen to do social dance. In some contexts, it seems that it's all about how good you are at dance, as if somehow enjoying it isn't enough reward in itself.

All franchise talk aside, for a moment, I'll tell two stories about why i decided to step out of the ballroom rat race. Neither has anything to do with dance, but both are pertinent to why I dance the way I do.

Story one. Years ago, I read an article on parenting which talked about kids and creativity. It said that, in kindergarten, kids were asked who could draw, everybody raised their hand. When in fifth (IIRC) grade, a similar group of kids was asked the same question, 7% of kids raised their hands. Seven percent. Seven. Can you dance? Raise your hand. Hmm. :-?

Story two. Many moons ago, I used to play first violin in a sight-reading community orchestra during the summers. So much fun. Every summer, there were these two old guys who sat at the back of the second violin section, who couldn't hang, couldn't play the parts, and for all I know, couldn't keep up with reading the music. It was rest-chunk-chunk, rest-chunk,chunk for those two guys all the way, every week, every summer for years and years. I'll tell you what. Those two old guys had joy. They LOVED making music.


What y'all are talking about is why I don't give a flip about studios or competitions anymore. I just want to feel magic in my soul, body or spirit when i dance. How good (or bad) i am doesn't matter to me.


[/end digression]

Eleven grand is a LOT of money.

[fascination]

good points P...not sure they have much to do with the issue, as you acknowleged, but definately important things worth saying here for all of us to constantly evaluate as we weigh those issues for ourselves...and I will likewise offer a vastly different end of the continuum that still makes the same point that you do about contemplating the merits of 11K worth of dollars...I live in the midwest...not a mecca of concentrated ballroom talent...not a wasteland but not a mecca...I dance with arguably one of the best pro/am teachers in the US..I regularly dance in excess of 100 heats...and 100 heats w/ organizer fee and pro expenses has never cost me 11k...100 heats... although, I have come close to that amount at my heaviest comps with all of my expenses for 0ver 100 heats...so someone who is new, dancing less than that at a closed event with less recognized instruction might want to re-think that...and if my goals were not extremely serious there is no way in hades that I would drop that kind of coin unless I simply had more money than God and was feeling charitable...granted, I am just one person...and we all have to do what works for us...but it is, as you say, very very important to know what one is after...not simply be led down the primrose path...which is easy and common when one first falls in love with dance..not saying this is OP...just howling into the void

[pygmalion]

If I were to become a dance activist, which I have considered many times (and I am a kicka$$ activist,) I would not press to get high level dance competition in the Olympics or some such. I'd fight my [expletive deleted] off to get Moms and Dads damcing badly in their living rooms most days.

Both have their place. But this is where my passion lies. :cool:

To me, dance is about happiness and (potentially) lifelong good heakth.

[pygmalion]

And yes to what you say, as well, f. Caveat emptor.

[fascination]

If I were to become a dance activist, which I have considered many times (and I am a kicka$$ activist,) I would not press to get high level dance competition in the Olympics or some such. I'd fight my [expletive deleted] off to get Moms and Dads damcing badly in their living rooms most days.

Both have their place. But this is where my passion lies. :cool:

To me, dance is about happiness and (potentially) lifelong good heakth.agree...there are levels of happiness and levels of hell and one person's happiness is another person's hell...and sometimes a certain sprinkling of hell is fertilzer for a certain parcel of heaven...thank goodness we don't all want the same parcel..and we all have a different idea of what we are willing to spend in dollars, in time, in sacrifice, etc..

[pygmalion]

Yeah. And in immortal words, why can't we all just get along? :lol:

We don't all want the same things or make the same choices. So it's all good. *shrug* :cool:

[bia]

I'm good with it being all good, but I have to admit that I didn't realize the scale of the expense. My minimal competition experience has been am-am at collegiate, USA dance, and small independent comps. I knew that pro-am was more expensive (for good reason), and franchise was more than that, but I didn't know by how much. So, to the OP, I'd just say that you have options.

[etp777]

Nothing compares to the costs of the big fa/am closed comps. :) I know I saw one from previous studio where base price from franchise headquarters was 8k

[pygmalion]

FA trains good quality teachers. Eight grand is a lot of money.

You decide. *shrug*

[etp777]

Yep, all a matter of what's value for you. I've not done any of national ones, have done local ones. and haev spent 5 figures in a year (don't now :) ).

I already posted results of FA pros at USDC, and everyone knows where my heart lies. ;)

[etp777]

I know at least one couple who has routinely spent six figures in a year though

[DL]

I know at least one couple who has routinely spent six figures in a year though

This strikes me as the equivalent of someone deciding to be a patron of the arts. After all the money that size swizzles around a bit, probably some chunk of it ends up subsidizing my own dancing one way or another (facilities, instruction, etc.). Um, tell them "thanks" for me.

[latingal]

Welcome to DF MidwestDancingGuy!

[pygmalion]

agree...there are levels of happiness and levels of hell and one person's happiness is another person's hell...and sometimes a certain sprinkling of hell is fertilzer for a certain parcel of heaven...thank goodness we don't all want the same parcel..and we all have a different idea of what we are willing to spend in dollars, in time, in sacrifice, etc..


I had a heaven and hell thing going on there, for a while. You're talking to a truly intense person. I literally had spreadsheets to track my dance progress -- patterns, technique, levels, goals. You name it. Success orientation to the max. So I do get where competitive dancers come from.

But, before I started dancing, I did a lot of years in the diversity and inclusion trenches, doing anything and everything to help people from all backgrounds at all levels feel valued and included.

I'm not saying that the two always clash in the dance world, but, in my view, there's potential for some disharmony. So I chose. Doesn't mean I can't change my mind, at some point.

As my very wise, octogenarian Dad always says, you pay your money and you make your choice. Eh.

[CANI]

You're talking to a truly intense person. I literally had spreadsheets to track my dance progress -- patterns, technique, levels, goals. You name it. Success orientation to the max. This made me laugh -- I can relate to so much of this myself -- down to the spreadsheets and the goals -- except I did this as a social dancer.

[pygmalion]

:cool: Either way. Dance passion is serious business. :-)

[MidwestDancingGuy]

Welcome to DF MidwestDancingGuy!

Thanks, latingal! :smile:

:cool: Either way. Dance passion is serious business. :-)

Yeah, it's a bit scary seeing this sometimes, especially as a noob to the ballroom dance world. Heck, I don't even watch DWTS or SYTYCD. Right now, I just want to be able to dance with a woman if, say, I get dragged by my friends to a salsa club or something.

But getting back to the original thread, I went out for a drink with some other students in my studio after one of our dance parties, and we were talking about this topic. I gave the example of a small business buying advertising on Google. If you decide to buy, say, 5 ads, Google doesn't try to pressure you into buying another 500 just to squeeze money out of you. And this was Google's business practice from the very beginning... not just after they became big. :google: (And we're talking the advertising business, people! One of the most cutthroat industries out there!) If one of the largest companies on the planet can run a very profitable business with dignity, why the heck can't these franchises....? Did a bunch of used car sales rejects decide to start running franchise dance studios or something? :confused:

(P.S.: I realize that there are plenty of slimy indy studios too. I'm speaking in relation to my current experience, which is w/ a franchise studio.)

[katelyn]

I've been a student at an Arthur Murray studio for 2 years now. I have to say that my experiences were great in the beginning but lately they have dwindled dramatically. My teacher is amazing, very knowledgeable, we have great chemistry and I trust him, I feel lucky to have had such a great teacher. AM however is a different story. Unfortunately the owner is hardly ever there, which makes voicing concerns very difficult and never taken seriously. Because a group of students have gotten really close with our teacher he has told us about they way he has been treated and has spilled the beans on how much less expensive indie studios are. I guess my main gripe is with the emphasis AM puts on selling and the cost of things. It seems like every time we do a spotlight it's 5$ more but there is nothing added. They replace our practice party night with extra events so if students want to dance they have to pay when we wouldn't have to usually. The only thing holding me to AM is my teacher! If I were a newbie I would check out an indie studio first before a franchise. You can pay almost 100$ for a private at my studio with some teachers who have hardly been dancing for 5 years (let alone teaching) where in my same city top teachers charge only $75 for a private... so AM teacher with zero experience or sought after well known teacher???

[latingal]

Welcome to DF katelyn!

[TangoRocks]

I've been a student at an Arthur Murray studio for 2 years now. I have to say that my experiences were great in the beginning but lately they have dwindled dramatically. My teacher is amazing, very knowledgeable, we have great chemistry and I trust him, I feel lucky to have had such a great teacher. AM however is a different story. Unfortunately the owner is hardly ever there, which makes voicing concerns very difficult and never taken seriously. Because a group of students have gotten really close with our teacher he has told us about they way he has been treated and has spilled the beans on how much less expensive indie studios are. I guess my main gripe is with the emphasis AM puts on selling and the cost of things. It seems like every time we do a spotlight it's 5$ more but there is nothing added. They replace our practice party night with extra events so if students want to dance they have to pay when we wouldn't have to usually. The only thing holding me to AM is my teacher! If I were a newbie I would check out an indie studio first before a franchise. You can pay almost 100$ for a private at my studio with some teachers who have hardly been dancing for 5 years (let alone teaching) where in my same city top teachers charge only $75 for a private... so AM teacher with zero experience or sought after well known teacher???

Welcome to DF, katelyn! Therein lies the dilemma of a franchise studio--there are good ones, there are bad ones, and there are ones that go from good to bad, where only your private instructor is worth staying for. I've had a similar experience with you--stayed at the same studio for the sake of my private instructor even when the rest of the experience started being not worth the big sticker price. The nickeling and diming is also very annoying, since you do pay a lot AND usually sign a contract to even be there. There is another whole thread about green trainee teachers and whether or not they are worth the $130-ish lesson fee (if you only took privates and never went to a group or party, that's what I calculated it would be where I am) so I am not going to touch it.

Hope you are in a larger metro area than I am so that you can find a potential replacement to your dance teacher/dance crowd that will bring back the original joy you had with your franchise.

[nucat78]

IME, many AM and FA teachers eventually go indy. Probably not going to happen very quickly in your teacher's case though.

Indy studios can also have issues; it's just a little easier to walk away from an indy - no long-term contracts usually.

[pygmalion]

Welcome katelyn. :-D

Hmm. I wonder how it happens that your current pro "happened to" spill the beans about his treatment and the cost of independent studios.

I'd tread carefully with that one. Chances are he's signed a non-compete agreement and will disappear from your life if he ever leaves the franchise.

[fascination]

welcome katelyn...I think the answer to your question depends upon why you dance and what you hope to achieve...

I don't like to pay for friendship...it never really works anyhow...but beyond that, if I wanted to have a secure pleasant social environment in which to simply dance and I didn't particularly care about how rapidly I progressed, I might well find your environment more satifying...if I wanted to get good and do so at a faster pace, and potentially not get taken to the cleaners doing it, I would probably check out the independent highly qualified person who is charging less...for me that is a no brainer but I have lived through blind loyalty and understand how it complicates things...good luck

[nucat78]

...that is a no brainer but I have lived through blind loyalty and understand how it complicates things...

Amen and amen.

[MissKitty]

Welcome to DF, katelyn! Therein lies the dilemma of a franchise studio--there are good ones, there are bad ones, and there are ones that go from good to bad, where only your private instructor is worth staying for. I've had a similar experience with you--stayed at the same studio for the sake of my private instructor even when the rest of the experience started being not worth the big sticker price. The nickeling and diming is also very annoying, since you do pay a lot AND usually sign a contract to even be there. There is another whole thread about green trainee teachers and whether or not they are worth the $130-ish lesson fee (if you only took privates and never went to a group or party, that's what I calculated it would be where I am) so I am not going to touch it.

Hope you are in a larger metro area than I am so that you can find a potential replacement to your dance teacher/dance crowd that will bring back the original joy you had with your franchise.

Do you mean....$130...FOR ONE LESSON?????

Gosh - I feel sorry for you lovely folks in America! It makes our lesson cost seem like small change!

[nucat78]

Do you mean....$130...FOR ONE LESSON?????

Gosh - I feel sorry for you lovely folks in America! It makes our lesson cost seem like small change!

More like $60-$70 for a 50 minute lesson. Not sure about costs at franchises and the $60-$70 rate is not for a "top pro".

[pygmalion]

Lessons at franchises cost quite a bit more but,, unless I misunderstood, the $130 price tag was the loaded cost of privates, when "'included" "free" group lessons and parties are figured in.

[MissKitty]

More like $60-$70 for a 50 minute lesson. Not sure about costs at franchises and the $60-$70 rate is not for a "top pro".

ahhhh Im glad to hear it - because $130 is astronomical! We pay $60 for a one hour private lesson - and that is with a teacher that has been a professional champ herself in our country.

The teachers over here are all ex dancers - no trainee teachers like I have been reading about here! The market here is too small I think.

[pygmalion]

The market here is too small I think.


And probably a lot better informed about ballroom dance, overall.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Going rate in my area is $80-90/45 minutes for a U.S. finalist/semifinalist. :)

Or a trainee...
Sometimes even more... :razz:

[katelyn]

At my Arthur Murray it's $100 for a lesson which are 45 minutes regardless of your teacher, we have some amazing teachers with 20 plus years experience but you would pay the same amount for a teacher who literally only started dancing 5 years ago.

That's comparable to in the same city (a large city in Canada) for a top teacher in the city for about 75$.

It's insane, but I couldn't leave my teacher

[katelyn]

Welcome katelyn. :-D

Hmm. I wonder how it happens that your current pro "happened to" spill the beans about his treatment and the cost of independent studios.

I'd tread carefully with that one. Chances are he's signed a non-compete agreement and will disappear from your life if he ever leaves the franchise.


Well truly a group of us are really close and he told us one night while we were having dinner together, he had a bit too much wine lol but it's not like that at all, he tells us all the time how he's unhappy but if and when he leaves he will still teach us, even if it means renting floor space somewhere else.

[clumsy fellow]

Well truly a group of us are really close and he told us one night while we were having dinner together, he had a bit too much wine lol but it's not like that at all, he tells us all the time how he's unhappy but if and when he leaves he will still teach us, even if it means renting floor space somewhere else.

Be careful . . . spidey senses are tingling!

[TinyDancer109]

At my Arthur Murray it's $100 for a lesson which are 45 minutes regardless of your teacher, we have some amazing teachers with 20 plus years experience but you would pay the same amount for a teacher who literally only started dancing 5 years ago.

That's comparable to in the same city (a large city in Canada) for a top teacher in the city for about 75$.

It's insane, but I couldn't leave my teacher

Similar here. I go to a FADS studio in a suburb of NYC and the going rate RIGHT NOW (they increase all the time) is $106/40 min. Some of the teachers are remarkable with many years experience and expertise and other have not even been dancing, let alone professional, for very long.

But loyalty to one's teacher is what makes you stay... *shrug*

[TangoRocks]

Lessons at franchises cost quite a bit more but,, unless I misunderstood, the $130 price tag was the loaded cost of privates, when "'included" "free" group lessons and parties are figured in.

Exactly, that's why I worded it as "if you only took privates and never went to a group or party"--in hindsight, I should have said the "complimentary" groups/parties. If you take enough groups/parties (which, at indy studios around here, are separately priced/charged) you CAN make a franchise studio dance unit cost approach that of an indy--when I first started, I went to every single party, group (at my level and one below my level) that I could, and those days I was getting a LOT better bang for my buck than today, starting up Silver and missing multiple groups/parties due to lack of motivation on my side and the deterioration of the studio offering on the franchise's side.

[TangoRocks]

At my Arthur Murray it's $100 for a lesson which are 45 minutes regardless of your teacher, we have some amazing teachers with 20 plus years experience but you would pay the same amount for a teacher who literally only started dancing 5 years ago.

That's comparable to in the same city (a large city in Canada) for a top teacher in the city for about 75$.

It's insane, but I couldn't leave my teacher

Wow, I am in Canada too--how are you calculating the $100? I just took the "semester" price and divided by 26 to get the ~$130--of course, again, this is assuming you ONLY do privates (there are a few people at the studio who do that) AM does not really give out individual lesson prices for privates/groups/parties, or at least not at the franchise location I am familiar with, so I was curious if you were at a studio with a different pricing scheme than mine.

Also, it's great you have multiple teachers with over 20 years experience (teaching), I wish we had that... Apart from the owners and one male instructor, the rest of teaching staff has less than 2 years experience, let alone 20!

[MissKitty]

Wow, I am in Canada too--how are you calculating the $100? I just took the "semester" price and divided by 26 to get the ~$130--of course, again, this is assuming you ONLY do privates (there are a few people at the studio who do that) AM does not really give out individual lesson prices for privates/groups/parties, or at least not at the franchise location I am familiar with, so I was curious if you were at a studio with a different pricing scheme than mine.

Also, it's great you have multiple teachers with over 20 years experience (teaching), I wish we had that... Apart from the owners and one male instructor, the rest of teaching staff has less than 2 years experience, let alone 20!

You see, I just do not understand how someone with less than 2 years experience can teach? I have been dancing longer than that myself!

I trust my teachers word as law because she has been dancing for over 30 years and competed professionally herself. (Latin)

And my standard teacher too was a professional and competed at Blackpool.

The prices most of you are quoting are high enough to start with, let alone with an unexperienced teacher!

We pay $60 for 1 hour pivate Latin.
$45 for 45 minute private standard.
$20 a week for competitors practice night (comp simulation where we dance rounds)
$12 a week for Latin Technique class.

So it costs us a grand total of $137 a week, spilt between the two of us. So its less than $70 a week each.

If I had to pay the prices you guys do - I couldnt afford to dance.

[katelyn]

Wow, I am in Canada too--how are you calculating the $100? I just took the "semester" price and divided by 26 to get the ~$130--of course, again, this is assuming you ONLY do privates (there are a few people at the studio who do that) AM does not really give out individual lesson prices for privates/groups/parties, or at least not at the franchise location I am familiar with, so I was curious if you were at a studio with a different pricing scheme than mine.

Also, it's great you have multiple teachers with over 20 years experience (teaching), I wish we had that... Apart from the owners and one male instructor, the rest of teaching staff has less than 2 years experience, let alone 20!


I guess this proves how corrupt my studio is, when I first started it did come to about 130$ per private but someone along the way must have made a mistake when billing me and they never changed it. They made a comment like "oh you have the discounted price" I went along with it and now I'm saving a bit of money. But it just goes to show you that the prices for a lot of things just come out of their asses.

[TinyDancer109]

Similar here. I go to a FADS studio in a suburb of NYC and the going rate RIGHT NOW (they increase all the time) is $106/40 min. Some of the teachers are remarkable with many years experience and expertise and other have not even been dancing, let alone professional, for very long.

But loyalty to one's teacher is what makes you stay... *shrug*

Forgot to mention that this does NOT include group lessons or practice parties... or anything else for that matter. This is solely the private lesson price.

[Bailamosdance]

If I had to pay the prices you guys do - I couldnt afford to dance.

Many times I hear rank beginners actually discussing their teachers, discussing their abilities (he's a great teacher), their enjoyment of the teacher (he makes it so much fun and I'm learning so much) or their 'attachment' to the teacher (I dunno, I'd feel terrible if I left him).

NONE of these people have any way to know if that teacher is any good and none of these folks have any idea what they should really expect in the teacher relationship... that's why so many students wind up in bizarre and needy situations in franchise and even in indie classes. Without any idea of what a student who 'knows the scene' pays and gets, students use what they think is common sense, comparing apples and oranges and making decisions the same way they would when buying a dress or even a car. This does not work in dance education (or any arts education).

Not understanding the student's real needs (even if their real need is for a refuge from their busy day) puts them in the vulnerable position of getting a newbie dancer/instructor since they assume that they can infer more knowledge than them equals potential gain - so many times the student says 'he knows more than me so he can therefore teach me'. At that point they have lost the game...

[fascination]

agree...which is why I hope that df performs a valuable service in helping some to have a more accurate grasp sooner rather than later

[MidwestDancingGuy]

You see, I just do not understand how someone with less than 2 years experience can teach? I have been dancing longer than that myself!

...

If I had to pay the prices you guys do - I couldnt afford to dance.

Teaching with less than 2 years' experience? Try 6 weeks' experience. Thus the name "6-week wonder"...

(and yes, the franchise studios charge the full $130 per lesson for a lesson with a brand new 6-week wonder as for a teacher that has taught at the school for more than 5 years... because, as the instructors like to constantly reiterate over and over again, they are all "certified professionals".)

[MissKitty]

Many times I hear rank beginners actually discussing their teachers, discussing their abilities (he's a great teacher), their enjoyment of the teacher (he makes it so much fun and I'm learning so much) or their 'attachment' to the teacher (I dunno, I'd feel terrible if I left him).

NONE of these people have any way to know if that teacher is any good and none of these folks have any idea what they should really expect in the teacher relationship... that's why so many students wind up in bizarre and needy situations in franchise and even in indie classes. Without any idea of what a student who 'knows the scene' pays and gets, students use what they think is common sense, comparing apples and oranges and making decisions the same way they would when buying a dress or even a car. This does not work in dance education (or any arts education).

Not understanding the student's real needs (even if their real need is for a refuge from their busy day) puts them in the vulnerable position of getting a newbie dancer/instructor since they assume that they can infer more knowledge than them equals potential gain - so many times the student says 'he knows more than me so he can therefore teach me'. At that point they have lost the game...

Good points here - sorry I do not mean to come across as rude - but how does this relate to my comment that you have quoted at the top? :)

[MissKitty]

Teaching with less than 2 years' experience? Try 6 weeks' experience. Thus the name "6-week wonder"...

(and yes, the franchise studios charge the full $130 per lesson for a lesson with a brand new 6-week wonder as for a teacher that has taught at the school for more than 5 years... because, as the instructors like to constantly reiterate over and over again, they are all "certified professionals".)

Certified professionals??? In 6 weeks? 'Gag'

Sounds like a rip off to me! Plain and simple.

All the studios here are what you would call 'independants'.

NO ONE charges that sort of money.

The only time someone pays that sort of money is when we get visiting pros from overseas - we are talking top pros here! We then might pay $120/$130 USD for a lesson with them.

I dont know of a single teacher/instructor in my city who wasnt a dancer themselves long before they started to teach. They were all either top Amatuers who turned pro to teach or former competitive professionals who retired from competition to teach.

The only one who did not compete herself did still dance. She went to a school for teachers in England and studied for years to be certified to teach, her sons were top competitive dancers (one married Karen Hardy), she trained Brendon Cole, and she currently shares the training of another couple with my teacher, who recently won an Australasian Latin Title in the Junior Age group.

These are the calibre of teachers that we are lucky enough to benefit from.

Do any of you feel that those in experienced teachers are negatively influencing dancesport in your area? OR do they still manage to turn out some decent dancers?

[fascination]

well...let's be clear...ballroom dance doesn't corner the market on calling anyone who has been given a certificate for a very minimal investment, "certified"....

it is however unfortunate that so many folks do so little research and find themselves underserved and over-charged...

[TinyDancer109]

Do any of you feel that those in experienced teachers are negatively influencing dancesport in your area? OR do they still manage to turn out some decent dancers?

The thing is, a lot of franchises focus more on attracting social dancers... couples, wedding dances, etc. So the inexperienced teachers ARE capable of providing an ELEMENTARY basic understanding of the dances, but they are not the ones who have seriously competitive students. But, frankly, franchise studio owners dont really care - the money is with the social dancers.

[MissKitty]

The thing is, a lot of franchises focus more on attracting social dancers... couples, wedding dances, etc. So the inexperienced teachers ARE capable of providing an ELEMENTARY basic understanding of the dances, but they are not the ones who have seriously competitive students. But, frankly, franchise studio owners dont really care - the money is with the social dancers.

Ahhh I see - that makes more sense now! Thanks for clearing that up! :)

[nucat78]

The thing is, a lot of franchises focus more on attracting social dancers... couples, wedding dances, etc. So the inexperienced teachers ARE capable of providing an ELEMENTARY basic understanding of the dances, but they are not the ones who have seriously competitive students. But, frankly, franchise studio owners dont really care - the money is with the social dancer.

I don't know the economics of the situation, but some indy studios focus on social dancers. While there are a few more dedicated dancers who stick around, usually there is a batch of inexperienced "fresh meat" every 3-4 months.

[nucat78]

well...let's be clear...ballroom dance doesn't corner the market on calling anyone who has been given a certificate for a very minimal investment, "certified"....

it is however unfortunate that so many folks do so little research and find themselves underserved and over-charged...

Saw a "plan" done by a Certified Financial Planner yesterday. A nice, thick binder of material that anyone with a basic finance class under their belt could put together for FREE using Internet resources. This individually typically charges around $2,000 for such a plan - that's quite a few private lessons.. ;)

But I digress...

[TinyDancer109]

I don't know the economics of the situation, but some indy studios focus on social dancers. While there are a few more dedicated dancers who stick around, usually there is a batch of inexperienced "fresh meat" every 3-4 months.


that may be the case, i was just answering MissKitty's question as it pertained to franchise studios.

[Bailamosdance]

The thing is, a lot of franchises focus more on attracting social dancers... couples, wedding dances, etc. So the inexperienced teachers ARE capable of providing an ELEMENTARY basic understanding of the dances, but they are not the ones who have seriously competitive students. But, frankly, franchise studio owners dont really care - the money is with the social dancers.

I disagree. A beginning teacher has the same issues that a beginning dancer has - among which are the concept that it is a series of 'steps' that, once memorized, is considered dancing. By the time the 6 week wonder realizes how to properly start a student in dance, he may have to stick around for a few years. By that time he has churned through hundreds of folks who either clomp around doing variations of the 'magic box' or give up dance entirely. The scary part is that the students never get the advantage of either dancing with nor getting instruction from a real dancer; also, they compare the rudimentary dancing of the wonder to the local guy at the social and decide that the local is either good (ha ha) or that the local is at the highest level that they will ever dance (ha ha ha).

[Larinda McRaven]

same could be said of amateurs that teach... never properly trained in the art of teaching and breaking down info...

At least a teacher at a franchise, even at a few weeks, is put through HOURS AND HOURS of mock teaching situations, mans part, ladies part, how to fix this, how to fix that, how to properly count, watch out for this, clean that up quick so it doesn't get worse... Years and Years worth of teaching info properly documented and distilled, passed on, teachers are watched and evaluated, sometimes they even shadow the senior teachers... The very fact that they are hired as teachers means they learn to teach. Their own dancing is not their focus, because they are not dancers who are trying to reverse engineer their own bodies.

The six-week wonder myth is not as bad as many people would have us think... that is just propaganda meant to dissuade people from going to franchises. Kinda like worms in pork videos, sent out by the beef industry.

[TinyDancer109]

I disagree. A beginning teacher has the same issues that a beginning dancer has - among which are the concept that it is a series of 'steps' that, once memorized, is considered dancing. By the time the 6 week wonder realizes how to properly start a student in dance, he may have to stick around for a few years. By that time he has churned through hundreds of folks who either clomp around doing variations of the 'magic box' or give up dance entirely. The scary part is that the students never get the advantage of either dancing with nor getting instruction from a real dancer; also, they compare the rudimentary dancing of the wonder to the local guy at the social and decide that the local is either good (ha ha) or that the local is at the highest level that they will ever dance (ha ha ha).

lol... no, i agree with you... i never said it was a GOOD understanding... just ELEMENTARY and BASIC... such as the basic steps/choreo.

[suburbaknght]

same could be said of amateurs that teach... never properly trained in the art of teaching and breaking down info...

At least a teacher at a franchise, even at a few weeks, is put through HOURS AND HOURS of mock teaching situations, mans part, ladies part, how to fix this, how to fix that, how to properly count, watch out for this, clean that up quick so it doesn't get worse... Years and Years worth of teaching info properly documented and distilled, passed on, teachers are watched and evaluated, sometimes they even shadow the senior teachers... The very fact that they are hired as teachers means they learn to teach. Their own dancing is not their focus, because they are not dancers who are trying to reverse engineer their own bodies.

The six-week wonder myth is not as bad as many people would have us think... that is just propaganda meant to dissuade people from going to franchises. Kinda like worms in pork videos, sent out by the beef industry.

:-D

Agree with everything Larinda posted. That said, I want to add two points.

1) The quality of the new teacher is heavily dependent on the training the franchisee or independent owner puts him or her through. A good studio owner knows how to train teachers and dancers, will train the recruit well, and won't let him or her teach until the recruit is ready. The training is intense - the word "grueling" would not be amiss - and can and often does produce teachers who are more than ready to teach beginner dancers.

2) The recruit who comes out of such a program is by no means done, and he or she is never encouraged to consider his or her training complete. When I completed my initial training and started being passed along newcomers and wedding couples, I was still putting hours in every night and day studying the bronze syllabus, practicing every aspect of dancing and teaching, and trying to improve as a teacher.

[TinyDancer109]

The very fact that they are hired as teachers means they learn to teach. Their own dancing is not their focus, because they are not dancers who are trying to reverse engineer their own bodies.

This.

[Bailamosdance]

same could be said of amateurs that teach... never properly trained in the art of teaching and breaking down info...


Agreed, especially if they did not take training for teaching, or at least did not go thru a syllabus course to learn.

[MidwestDancingGuy]

The six-week wonder myth is not as bad as many people would have us think... that is just propaganda meant to dissuade people from going to franchises. Kinda like worms in pork videos, sent out by the beef industry.

I think this analogy is flawed. If you were to translate the pork/beef analogy to the world of ballroom dance, what you are implying is that independent studios (the beef industry) are putting out propaganda (worms in pork videos) trying to dissuade people from going to franchises (the pork industry). I may be totally clueless and wrong here, but I believe that quite of few of the people (including myself) who have made posts discussing 6-week wonders do not work for independent studios.

I am just merely a student of ballroom dance, and a lowly beginner. I don't claim to know the ins-and-outs of the ballroom dance industry, and I certainly don't claim to know more than someone as well-respected in the ballroom world as you, Larinda. But even in my short time dancing, I myself have seen the 6-week wonder "myth" in action. Of course, this is just one school, and I can only speak of my experiences in that one franchise studio before I left. Maybe that school is some sort of "mythical" school, where 6-week wonders ride pink unicorns in their back office. Either that, or maybe the 6-week wonder myth is not just a myth.

[Larinda McRaven]

I didn't say they don't exist. Heck I was one!!!! I walked in off the street. I was teaching within 2 weeks. I was competing with my first student barely a few months later. And I proudly admit it (wink, wink)


I said it is not as bad as some people would like everyone to believe... there are plenty people out there that are desperate enough for business that they have to go around knocking the competition anyway they can.

[Larinda McRaven]

One of my first students KNEW my history in teaching was practically nil. He said he gave me a chance because on our first lesson I stopped him in the middle of a pattern and said "something is wrong there, let's work on it." He knew I did not have the answer, but felt I had an understanding of the problem and the desire to sweat it out to work on it. And he said he could tell I cared.

When someone wants something they will achieve it. I wanted a life in this industry and worked hard to get what I have. If a teacher is crappy it is not because of their background, it is because of the way they operate NOW... not because they were hired as an adult with no dance experience.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I disagree. A beginning teacher has the same issues that a beginning dancer has - among which are the concept that it is a series of 'steps' that, once memorized, is considered dancing. By the time the 6 week wonder realizes how to properly start a student in dance, he may have to stick around for a few years. By that time he has churned through hundreds of folks who either clomp around doing variations of the 'magic box' or give up dance entirely. The scary part is that the students never get the advantage of either dancing with nor getting instruction from a real dancer; also, they compare the rudimentary dancing of the wonder to the local guy at the social and decide that the local is either good (ha ha) or that the local is at the highest level that they will ever dance (ha ha ha).

I'm not sure about that. The ballroom club at our university has 3 levels of group classes and the beginning one is taught by more experienced club members (the ones who's been with the club for a couple of years or more), and for the intermediate and advanced they hired local professionals. So, speaking of the beginning class, the college kids who teach it, aren't that experienced. They have more than 6 weeks of experience, that's for sure, but their experience isn't as concentrated or directed towards knowing how to teach, as they're all working on their university studies as well. But they're doing an OK job with the new kids, it seems. Considering that, theoretically someone who had to cram an intensive course specifically directed at teaching, into 6 weeks, could teach some basics to a brand-new wedding couple or a beginner group class, for example.

My main objections to the trainee's system is that 1. the price for studio lesson is same regardless of experience 2. they wouldn't necessarily tell new clients about the experience levels. IMV, all that can be addressed with being upfront about experience levels and offering a tiered pricing system based on the experience level.

[MidwestDancingGuy]

Yes to this. I think a newbie ballroom teacher can often (not always; I have examples) teach new students, especially social dance students or wedding couples, what they want to know without doing any harm.

I also agree that new teachers can teach noob social students or wedding couples without doing harm.

I think that a big part of the problem is that people (like me, for example) change their goals mid-stream and then blame the dance studio for not meeting unexpressed needs.

When I started dancing, I was looking to fill an emotional hole in my life by pursuing something I'd always dreamed about. I'd been dancing several months or maybe even a year when I realized that dance achievement and goal-orientation were important to me.

Yes, but what do you think about the case that you change goals mid-stream and express those needs? The franchise studio that I was at, in hindsight, was clearly a social dance school. But as soon as any student showed any sort of talent, the teachers started "gently encouraging" them to compete. And if you tell them that you consider them to be teachers of social dance, and that you want to go learn competitive dance (or International Style, for that matter) from another teacher/school, they get extremely angry and defensive, even to the point that the owner will force the students out of the school (without refunding the remaining lessons, either).

I don't fault a school or teacher if the student doesn't make their needs known. But when a school claims that it can meet all the dance needs for all people, as long as you just keep paying them all your money, I think that's just wrong. When I told my teacher that if I were to ever compete, that I would want to compete at open competitions, like OSB, Emerald Ball, Embassy, etc. she told me, "You can't do that with us. But our franchise competitions are a lot of fun! And the people in our competitions are all really friendly, too, unlike those mean, unfriendly, cat-fighting people that compete in open competitions! So just forget about those open comps... and compete at ours instead!"

[pygmalion]

My main objections to the trainee's system is that 1. the price for studio lesson is same regardless of experience 2. they wouldn't necessarily tell new clients about the experience levels. IMV, all that can be addressed with being upfront about experience levels and offering a tiered pricing system based on the experience level.


Yes to this. I think a newbie ballroom teacher can often (not always; I have examples) teach new students, especially social dance students or wedding couples, what they want to know without doing any harm.

I think that a big part of the problem is that people (like me, for example) change their goals mid-stream and then blame the dance studio for not meeting unexpressed needs.


When I started dancing, I was looking to fill an emotional hole in my life by pursuing something I'd always dreamed about. I'd been dancing several months or maybe even a year when I realized that dance achievement and goal-orientation were important to me.

My goals changed and for quite some time after I left, I blamed the dance studio that helped me achieve what I told them I wanted to achieve. My next teacher had something to do with that, IME. What a judgmental dude he seemed to be (although perhaps he was reflecting to me what I said about my former studio.) Eh. *shrug* But I digress.

Now, with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think it's my former studio's fault that they couldn't read my mind or stay ahead of the curve of my personal evolution.

Just sayin.

[TangoRocks]

The thing is, a lot of franchises focus more on attracting social dancers... couples, wedding dances, etc. So the inexperienced teachers ARE capable of providing an ELEMENTARY basic understanding of the dances, but they are not the ones who have seriously competitive students. But, frankly, franchise studio owners dont really care - the money is with the social dancers.

Inexperienced teachers are not sufficient for the SERIOUS social dancers either, speaking as one. I have never competed, and does not look like I am going to in the foreseeable future, but I do take my dancing seriously and one reason I might be leaving my franchise studio soon is because there are no experienced female professionals left to teach me. Correction, the only female teacher left is a former student, and while she is great dancer and I have danced with her a lot when we were both students, I am not confident I can learn from her, which makes it extremely difficult and frustrating.

But your last point is bang on--the franchise studio owners really don't care, I am pretty sure the long-time social dancers like me as well as the few competitive dancers who go to franchises are just the frosting on the cake and the studio makes the bulk of its money from wedding couples, and people who take lessons for a few months to a year and then leave. Lots of churn there, and teaching a few basic steps to a wedding couple is probably a lot easier than dealing with full scale choreography and styling/technique for your (few) silver/gold level students.

[TangoRocks]

I don't fault a school or teacher if the student doesn't make their needs known. But when a school claims that it can meet all the dance needs for all people, as long as you just keep paying them all your money, I think that's just wrong. When I told my teacher that if I were to ever compete, that I would want to compete at open competitions, like OSB, Emerald Ball, Embassy, etc. she told me, "You can't do that with us. But our franchise competitions are a lot of fun! And the people in our competitions are all really friendly, too, unlike those mean, unfriendly, cat-fighting people that compete in open competitions! So just forget about those open comps... and compete at ours instead!"

MDG, what you said happened to a friend of mine, so I know exactly where you are coming from. She actually did franchise competitions, with their inflated price tag, and I am amazed how the franchise lost her to an independent teacher--I mean, she was easily making the studio more money than a few weeks of wedding couples, just by going to a comp for 3 days, you'd think the franchise would do all they could to keep her "in the family." Apparently not...

I also have personal experience with the studio claiming it could meet all my dance needs--I don't care much for ECS, so I went and took Lindy Hop elsewhere--my private instructor could have taught me Lindy up to a point, but if there is no Lindy played at socials, not a lot of chance to practice it. Other friends of mine have done the same for WCS, Argentine Tango, Quickstep etc, and the studio reacted by putting together "series" classes in some of those dances. Unfortunately, being a franchise and not a specialized AT/WCS/IS shop, their teaching, in my opinion, falls short. I can see the differences between the "real" AT/WCS/Lindy etc as danced by people in those communities versus as danced by franchise-studio series-class students.

[MidwestDancingGuy]

<snip>

I also have personal experience with the studio claiming it could meet all my dance needs--I don't care much for ECS, so I went and took Lindy Hop elsewhere--my private instructor could have taught me Lindy up to a point, but if there is no Lindy played at socials, not a lot of chance to practice it. Other friends of mine have done the same for WCS, Argentine Tango, Quickstep etc, and the studio reacted by putting together "series" classes in some of those dances. Unfortunately, being a franchise and not a specialized AT/WCS/IS shop, their teaching, in my opinion, falls short. I can see the differences between the "real" AT/WCS/Lindy etc as danced by people in those communities versus as danced by franchise-studio series-class students.

Yup, happened at my old franchise studio, too, except with Quickstep. Because the one Gold student at our studio took some QS lessons from a friend of hers who happens to be a dance teacher, and word got back to the franchise teachers/management. But the series classes that were taught in Quickstep... was... not... Quickstep, as I later found out when I started going to my indy studio, which teaches International Style. I dunno, maybe it was American Style Quickstep or something?? :p

[Dots]

I have been at an Arthur Murray studio for approximately two years now and so far, I have been thrilled with my experience. I have to admit that I got lucky, however, since I knew next to nothing in dancing and had no idea what to look for in terms of credentials (nor did I really search for any). Here’s my experience so far:


The owners have been in the business for decades and it shows that they have lots of experience in dancing and managing. They have proven flexible in payment options when necessary.

There have always been two gold level teachers at the studio which constantly formed the other less experienced teachers. "Less experienced" is also relative since they were at least silver leveled (but not necessarily trained to teach silver leveled steps as I understand it).

There has never been a case of "6 weeks wonder". The studio would rather take the time to bring an experienced teacher from the outside, even if that meant months. Transitionning from one teacher to another is also possible without too much fuss.

Once I made it clear that my budget would only allow one 30 min private per week, I was never pressured into taking more lessons.

The studio has only insisted that I complete my progress checks in a certain number of dances prior to accessing a higher leveled group class. I have never been held back due to not taking an X number of privates or contract.

Practice between students is encouraged and sometimes, teachers can’t help but give a few free tips as they walk by.

I have been encouraged to try spotlights, formations and competitions, but I have never been emotionally blackmailed into any event.

Coaches are occasionally being brought in before competitions for expert advice. Sometimes it costs a few extra bucks, but they are well placed and the coaches had high credentials.

I know from seeing other students that the studio does not frown on students taking classes elsewhere for whatever reason. They seem confident that the quality of their teaching will be enough to maintain client fidelity (and so far it has).

What I have learned, I have managed to apply successfully in the "outside world" with complete strangers. That’s perhaps the biggest success marker that I can think of aside from competing.

So yeah, its positive review.


After two years, however, I have seen enough from other Arthur Murray studios to understand that the same situation is not necessarily replicated elsewhere. Were I to go back in time, I would still chose the same studio, but I would have done more homework and asked pointy questions concerning credentials, etc. A franchise is not a guarantee of quality; only that certain standards are applied.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yup, happened at my old franchise studio, too, except with Quickstep. Because the one Gold student at our studio took some QS lessons from a friend of hers who happens to be a dance teacher, and word got back to the franchise teachers/management. But the series classes that were taught in Quickstep... was... not... Quickstep, as I later found out when I started going to my indy studio, which teaches International Style. I dunno, maybe it was American Style Quickstep or something?? :p

I've noticed this, too, since the area where I live has predominantly american style. I happened to be in our studio when they had a beginner quickstep class, taught by someone who mainly teaches american style. I think it was put together upon requests from people who now sit quicksteps out (it's played a few times during the parties, since we have some people who do international style). But it looked nothing like quickstep I know. I think the premise was that it's like foxtrot, but faster and without any open position work (since it's international).

[bia]

Unfortunately, being a franchise and not a specialized AT/WCS/IS shop, their teaching, in my opinion, falls short. I can see the differences between the "real" AT/WCS/Lindy etc as danced by people in those communities versus as danced by franchise-studio series-class students.
I'd consider this a common issue for ballroom studios in general, not just franchises. Though I suppose that it might be more straightforward for an indy studio to bring in teachers from those communities for those particular classes (not that they always do), while a franchise studio would be more limited to their current teachers. (I say this with no franchise experience whatsoever, so take it with all the necessary grains of salt.)

[danceronice]

I have been at an Arthur Murray studio for approximately two years now and so far, I have been thrilled with my experience. <SNIP> I have seen enough from other Arthur Murray studios to understand that the same situation is not necessarily replicated elsewhere. Were I to go back in time, I would still chose the same studio, but I would have done more homework and asked pointy questions concerning credentials, etc. A franchise is not a guarantee of quality; only that certain standards are applied.


And that's why it's always important remember, restaurant or dance studio or any other franchise, it's just that--a FRANCHISE. There are basic standards you have to meet, but the feel of the place is up to the individuals running it. I would probably be more leery of an AM or FADS just because of the pricing, but I wouldn't automatically rule them out just because they're a franchise. The individual owner makes a huge difference.

[gardinercd]

My independent studio was recently purchased by a franchise, so I (unfortunately) have been able to experience the differences at the same studio run by indy and franchise owners. There are definitely pros and cons and I'm hoping in the end they even out and I'm able to continue improving at this studio.

When it was independent, it was a lot of fun. The parties were livelier, the music was good and everyone seems to be having a great time. The owner was very charismatic. Lessons were inexpensive, there were a variety of comps to go to and you could order a la carte. One the con side, there were some inexperienced instructors being weened and I felt as if I had to use lessons in order to give them some experience. Also, the books were a mess; business was often done with a handshake.

Now that it is owned by a franchise, the feel is that it is first and foremost a business. The owners are very nice and gracious, but when I lost my partner due to the acquisition, I was told I couldn't attend the comp I was training for because "frankly, we wouldn't make any money off of it". The lessons are much more expensive and we're expected to attend the franchise comps which are mucho dinero. Also, their footwork is a bit different than i was taught, so it seems like I'm going to have to spend time relearning dances "their way". One the plus side, the instructors are very experienced. Also, the studio now keeps track of my lessons, payments, etc. so I don't have to keep an eye on things so closely.

So, while I couldn't recommend one over the other, I would say there is a trade-off. Now that my studio is a franchise, I find myself attending many more group lessons and parties not only to find another partner, but to try and justify the added expense.

[fascination]

as to them keeping closer track of your lessons and payments, leaving you with less work in that regard; I am not so certain that you want to adopt that perspective on that issue...I am also not sure that I would want to dance somewhere where I was expected to attend any one event or another...as a consumer, I don't feel that I owe a provider anything...it isn't a church where there is inherent communal responsibility...having said all of that, I think we all have the ability to gage whether or not the total package that any studio presents is, on balance, one worth accepting...and we needn't feel that we need to justify that decision to anyone else...and I am happy that you have had a trasition that has proven feasible for you :)

[tangotime]

.



Also, their footwork is a bit different than i was taught, so it seems like I'm going to have to spend time relearning dances "their way".



This sentence puzzled me...can you be a little more specific ?

[gardinercd]

To clarify, when the franchise took over, I was training for a competition and the franchise pro was unfamiliar with the syllabus I was learning. Many of the figures (I believe) either had different names or were not taught at his franchise. So, it was difficult for us to get on the same page because I didn't want to stop and learn his syllabus with the comp looming and he was unfamiliar with some of the terms on my lesson plan. So, there is a difference in steps and figures to dances.

Also, I've noticed small things like the dances begin differently - which throws me off a bit, but I quickly catch up. (eg. the rumba beginning with a quick quick to the side rather than a slow step forward.)

Last, at parties, we would dance mainly EC swing, Waltz and Salsa - but this fanchise prefers WC swing, Viennese, and Samba. Dances with which most of the students are unfamiliar. So, not worse, just different.

[suburbaknght]

To clarify, when the franchise took over, I was training for a competition and the franchise pro was unfamiliar with the syllabus I was learning. Many of the figures (I believe) either had different names or were not taught at his franchise. So, it was difficult for us to get on the same page because I didn't want to stop and learn his syllabus with the comp looming and he was unfamiliar with some of the terms on my lesson plan. So, there is a difference in steps and figures to dances.
This is very, very frequent between studios. It's actually much more common among independent studios which may be using ISTD, USISTD, DVIDA, DTC Boston, NDTA, NADT, PATD, or USTA syllabus, or whatever the studio's dance director has put together from his or her own background and experience. At least with a Franchise you know that every studio will be using the same syllabus with the same figures and steps.

The solution is not to worry about relearning steps for the competition. Focus on technique which is universal. I do lessons with many instructors and coaches who don't know the ins and outs of my preferred syllabus but no good technique and how to correct it regardless of the step. I find this actually more beneficial than someone who teaches to syllabus because at a competition it's unlikely all the judges will know your specific syllabus.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I lost my partner due to the acquisition
I'm not sure I understand. Would you mind explaining? :)

[wooh]

I think he's referring to his pro-am instructor?

[gardinercd]

Yes. That's what she is referring to. :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

[Countess 4]

My experience 6 years with a franchised studio...mostly great! Also good at independent studio.

Franchise: My teacher competed professionally and was up to date on latest coachings etc. The social part and group classes of franchised studios is all part of the package..loved it. I was a competitive student and had opportunites at both franchised and independent comps. Made friends that I still have...a bonding social enviornment.

Franchises speak about independent studios as though they are at the bottom of the food chain.

I now dance at an independent studio and guess what? Very similar to the franchised studio. Buy a package of lessons per month (I buy 20): Group classes every evening; showdance events semi-annually; competitions local and away; professional coachings offered.

A few differences......
Franchise: choreography by an outside coach; buddy system; restricted teacher/student interaction; teachers qualified through franchise.

Independent: teachers do choreography.....outside coaches evaluate it.....; teachers are certified; no buddy system, however if you want more than one instructor that's okay; appears that more students compete locally and away.

Conclusion: Neither franchise or independent is automatically better than the other. Depends who owns the studio, how profesionally it is run and whether the studio really gives a care long term about their students or is a large turnover just part of the reality.

[fascination]

welcome to df countess

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Inexperienced teachers are not sufficient for the SERIOUS social dancers either, speaking as one. I have never competed, and does not look like I am going to in the foreseeable future, but I do take my dancing seriously and one reason I might be leaving my franchise studio soon is because there are no experienced female professionals left to teach me. Correction, the only female teacher left is a former student, and while she is great dancer and I have danced with her a lot when we were both students, I am not confident I can learn from her, which makes it extremely difficult and frustrating.
Are there no experienced male professionals either? :)

[pygmalion]

Conclusion: Neither franchise or independent is automatically better than the other. Depends who owns the studio, how profesionally it is run and whether the studio really gives a care long term about their students


Yes to this.

And welcome, countess. :-D

[TangoRocks]

Are there no experienced male professionals either? :)

Actually, TC, I am taking lessons from the experienced male professional right now. However, if I had my druthers, I'd rather dance with a girl than with a guy ;-)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Heh, I wonder about *his* druthers. ;)

[RumbaLucia]

Conclusion: Neither franchise or independent is automatically better than the other. Depends who owns the studio, how profesionally it is run and whether the studio really gives a care long term about their students or is a large turnover just part of the reality.

Absolutely.

In the UK, the majority of our studios are small and independent. The success or failure of each studio comes down to the quality and dedication of the teachers and staff, and their capability to run a shrewd business as well as teaching with passion and knowledge. If they can do all this - they succeed. If they can't - they don't.

There are probably three major players in my local county, and they all succeed because they are capable teachers who run a tight ship. There are many other studios that are mediocre or worse, but that is down to poor teaching or fly-by-night ideas, rather than the fact that they are independent.

:D