Franchise Experiences [Archive]

SDsalsaguy

07-20-2003, 03:13 PM

I was just at the Arthur Murray Unique Dance-O-Rama in Costa Mesa yesterday, and I am curious about anyone’s experiences with and feelings about the ballroom franchises.

Personally I started at an Arthur Murray school but, unfortunately, the owner of that studio is one of the slimiest people I have ever met. It actually took a couple of years after I had left that studio before I would even set foot in another Arthur Murray studio. I did, however, eventually visit a couple of other Arthur Murray schools and was pleasantly surprised and impressed.

This weekend’s competition, however, was my first time seeing a franchise competition and I am still sorting out my impressions. There were definitely some elements that impressed me. The overall enthusiasm and support in the ballroom struck me as on par with what I’ve come to expect from the college circuit, but is almost entirely lacking at any other event. One thing that was particularly nice about this, aside from the general camaraderie, was the joy in dancing—both in doing it and watching it—something that seems sadly lacking in other events. Also, even though franchise events are expensive, I have to say that the decorations, catering, etc., were all really top notch—definitely at a scale that I have never seen at any independent event.

On the flipside, however, and something new to me, were the “Future Professional Champions” events. These are professional two-dance events that, to the best of my knowledge, are for instructors during their first two years (does anyone know if I got this right?). I have to say I found these events a bit shocking…someone who only competes in a two-dance event is an instructor? Of course there is the larger issue that good dancing and good instruction are not synonymous, but I think that is a different issue…

Anyway, I’m curious about anyone else’s experiences with and impressions of the franchises and franchise events…

MissAlyssa

07-20-2003, 04:31 PM

Weeeell..I am biased lol. Fred Astaire all the way baby :] I'm not sure what the whole two dance instructor dancing was all about but I have to say that you hit the pros of the franchise pretty much on the head. I feel like there is a ton of support and excitement within a franchise. The studio forms a tight bond and the enthusiasm that the "employees" build definetly wears off on the students. Oh yea, and the catering and decorations are awesome :]

msc

07-20-2003, 11:02 PM

I've never had a lesson, either group or private, from a major franchise studio. I started out at a start-up studio, fairly big place, then migrated to take lessons from the major ballroom studios in the area. I stayed at the start-up for quite a while, as the owner gave me some serious discounts on privates, since I "helped train his instructors." What can I say, they made for good practice partners.

I actually had three separate private instructors at one point ... one from the start-up, one from an established studio, and argentine tango ... and the tango instructor was far and away the best. The fact that she had won her country's modern (standard) championship at an early age probably helped a bit.

Now I'm soon to have a new instructor, definitely the best I've ever had, both in ability and teaching skills, so I'll have to gear it up. I'm just hopeful that I won't have to go all the way back to the beginning again ...

MissAlyssa

07-20-2003, 11:57 PM

hehe, I do a lot of my training on students [they get free/discounted lessons]. it helps me and the student out. :)

Black Sheep

07-21-2003, 12:13 AM

Chain studios have a definite advantage over 'most' independent studios because the advertising is shared by several franchises, and the cost of a franchise is only affordable for those who can put forth additional investment to embellish the studio in every way.
I worked for the Veloz & Yolanda studios in 1949; I joined the same branch as Jean Phelps only a month after she went through their teacher's training course of six weeks, six hours a day, six days a week. Many independent studio owners are former chain studio trained, as I was. However, There are too many untrained teachers running lose, so a student has to be judicious about picking a teacher from a dance hall just because they dance well. The best way to judge any teacher's ability is by the students they turn out.
Fred Astaire and Veloz & Yolanda studios in the 1950's did turn out more stylized graceful dancers then the Arthur Murray Studios in L.A. I haven't seen an Arthur Murray contests on TV for a few years, but when I did view them, I had difficulty identifying the differences in their styling for individual ballroom dances. If it wasn't for the music or the costumes all their moves and executions and styling were so similar that the individual dances lost much of their unique character and mood.
Great thread, Salsaguy!

SDsalsaguy

07-22-2003, 03:42 PM

MissAlyssa, I do have to say that the enthusiasm was, indeed, great!

At the same time though, many—if not the majority—of the “instructors” would have been wiped off the floor by a large percentage of the open level amateurs. So, for those students who enjoy the atmosphere and camaraderie provided within the franchise setting, I think they’re getting just what they want. For students who are trying to develop a certain quality of movement though, I think they need to be very careful within the franchise system (which is not, of course, to say that any such thing is in any way guaranteed in independent studios either).

FYI, this same prompt has generated some responses you may be interested in over in my yahoo group, www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Ballroom_Life/.

07-22-2003, 06:58 PM

Very nice post, SD, I always was shown and held that if you're looking to take lessons in any form of dance that the best learning comes from a variety of teachers and methods of teaching.

-FF

Panthra

07-23-2003, 01:47 AM

Oooh anthropology. My future major. :D

My experience with the world of dance franchises has been limited and I plan to keep it that way. When it comes to ballroom things seem to be split down the middle. You've got the social and competitve and most of the time the two just don't seem to overlap.

Being more interested in the competitive aspect I find that anyone I want to take lessons with is affiliated with an independent studio. The chains are more focused on the everday social dancer and from what I've seen exclusively teach American style. I've read the franchises try to keep people from going beyond their network, hence one motive for exclusive competitions.

I'm dancing at a "former" Arthur Murray's (only in name it seems, except for that one teacher who makes it worth it) and paying up front for 10 privates and 10 groups set me on edge. All my other lesson programs were payed in installments. I don't know if that's significant or not, but it was another difference I noticed.

Yeah... so those are my observations, who knows though.

SDsalsaguy

07-23-2003, 02:06 AM

Oooh anthropology. My future major. :D

Really? What branch of anthropology are you interested in? FYI, feel free to be in touch if I can ever help out!

—Jonathan

MissAlyssa

07-24-2003, 11:55 AM

SDsalsaguy

07-24-2003, 12:07 PM

Panthra,
I'm not quite sure why paying up front "pissed you off" but from an instructor's standpoint I'd like to share why I feel paying up front is a positive thing. Think of it this way, you have a lesson at 5 o'clock and you show up at 4:55 so you have time to put on your shoes etc before your lesson. At 5 o'clock I walk up and let you know that you have no more lessons paid for at the moment. Instead of starting a lesson on time you have to go and pay for a few more lessons, taking 10 minutes out of a lesson (on your time) that would otherwise have been taken care of. Furthermore, the higher the program you are enrolled in, the more fun and exciting things we can teach you during your lessons. Let me tell you, I'd rather be teaching you style, technique, or cool patterns during your lesson rather than watch you do the rumba box step for 30 minutes and for excitement throwing in an UA turn lol :D

MissAlyssa, I think the point is that if the product is really of value, it will sell itself, i.e. the student will sign up for lessons of their own initiative, not be required to make an up front commitment. Every top instructor I have seen in the U.S. and Europe receives payment on the completion of the lesson without issue…

Part of the discrepancy may also be that you are viewing this only as a franchise insider…in most independent schools there is no such thing as “you haven’t purchased that yet.” I’m not entirely sure why, but it seems that the business model that the franchises are based on quantify and qualify the value of their program from a choreographic standpoint. Dance is a skill and, as such, even a rumba box can be taught at levels that only the vast minority of franchise instructors (albeit many independent instructors as well) would be able to match…

Taita

07-25-2003, 04:35 PM

Hello everyone,

This is my first post. I hope you enjoy it. A bit about myself...
I currently take lessons at both independent and a franchise studio. I have taken lessons from several schools in this franchise for years. Let me see if I can share some of experience with them...

I would describe my experience as very positive. The ones I go to do not exclusively teach just the American style, but also offer an international syllabus (or is it syllabi for plural...). While I do see a tendency to try and 'sell' newcomers I don't see the same tendency at many independent studios too. I have also found that it's easy to characterize an entire franchise based on the experience had at a single school. I have visited many schools from the same franchise and found them to be pretty much self-owned and managed. Some are well run operations where a pleasant experience is assured and morale is high with both the staff and the students. Others are badly mismanaged where the staff feels little better than slaves and the atmosphere seems a bit too workmanlike. As each studio is independently owned and managed, I have never had difficulty negotiating a fair rates for my lessons. In terms of instruction.... I tend to believe it all comes down to two things: the teacher and the student. Sometimes I find people paying outrageous sums of money to learn from barely qualified teachers. Sometimes I find people who pay top dollar to work with the same teachers I work with and never really learn anything. When I objectively look at those situations, it always strikes me that the student has a role and responsibility in this too that is not often met. When I go for my lessons, I am blessed to be able to learn from some of the world's best dancers and I prepare by practicing beforehand, being warmed up, and paying close attention. All this at a price that is comparable to what I would find at the independent studios I also take lessons at.

For me, lessons are not cheap, but time is even more expensive. One outstanding, expensive lesson every couple of weeks, is often worth more than mediocre, cheap lessons taken everyday. I have always found quality of instruction to be paramount. I have also found that it is possible to find that instruction at franchise studios. Franchise studios do play an important role and many do a good job of providing value to it's customers. One should definitely not shy away from franchises when looking for instruction. However, I have seen a few that seem a bit.... shall we say, mismanaged.... and I can see how easily one can form an impression of an entire franchise based on an experience at a single school. It is far more useful to judge each situation on it's own merits and make decisions based on what is best for you.

SDsalsaguy

07-25-2003, 05:50 PM

Welcome to the forums Taita! (And, FYI, I did enjoy your post :D)

You bring up an excellent point regarding student responsibilities as well. Walking in for a lesson “just on time” and/or not having practiced since the last lesson are just some of the things that some students do that undermine the value of their lessons.

On the issue of value, you also point out the valuable point (sorry, couldn’t help myself) that price is not synonymous with value. Aside from the fact that a higher quality lesson will get you further faster, there are some things you will never get—no matter how much time and money you invest—from even an infinite number of lower quality lessons. As such, the quality of the lesson needs to be factored in as much as the price and, despite larger social pressures to the contrary, price should not be conflated with value.

Two factors relevant to this value factoring that have been brought up in the Ballroom Life (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ballroom_Life/) yahoo group are (1) “extras,” and (2) portability. For the price of lessons the franchises include group classes and practice parties so, if you utilize these services, then a higher priced lesson can, indeed, be of greater value (assuming, of course, comparable quality of teaching). This phenomena, in turn, tends to function as an element of diminishing returns since most studios do not have group classes/events that are geared towards higher and higher level dancers. (Again, the specifics of any given establishment could vary, but as a rule of thumb, this is, indeed, the case.) As far as portability, for those who can and do make use of such, there is something to be said for the franchises in that one can join in group classes and parties, and even take an exchange private lesson, throughout the system at no additional cost.

Returning to Taita’s point, however, I think that prioritizing one’s objectives is one place where students need to be careful. If social dance is what is wanted, then franchises are—by and large—among the very best choices. For more quality based dancing then it becomes essential to evaluate the individual establishments available. While there certainly are quality dancers and instructors available within the franchise systems, I watched multiple franchise professionals competing last weekend who would be easily beaten in novice level amateur events.

Black Sheep

07-26-2003, 12:50 AM

Taita,
I taught at a Veloz and Yolanda franchise studio and have had several teachers and franchise owners as friends and I categorically agree with your description of the 'good, the bad and the ugly' of both Independents and Franchise Chain studios. Readers would be wise to follow your sage advice.
Black Sheep

luvandliv2dance

07-26-2003, 02:17 AM

Hi, I was at the Costa Mesa event also and found your post very interesting. :D

SDsalsaguy

07-26-2003, 03:45 AM

Hi, I was at the Costa Mesa event also and found your post very interesting. :D

Welcome to the forums luvandliv2dance! (I love the ID by the way!)

I'm glad you found my post interesting. If I may ask, however, what was your impression of the event and in what capacity were you there? Please do feel free to disagree with anything I have said, as I am well aware that my frame of reference and perspective is only that—mine. I started this thread due to a genuine interested in other people’s perceptions and opinions on the matter.

Again, welcome to the forums!

—Jonathan

Taita

07-29-2003, 04:22 PM

Thank you for the welcome everyone!

SD..... I'm glad you enjoyed my post. If you are referring to the same franchise I'm thinking of, then I have to say that your experience with them is similar to my experience with them. In my area, this chain only teaches from their own American Style syllabus and subsequently, their focus is purely social. I agree with your point on 'extras' as their rates are outrageously higher than anyone else's. This is justified by the inclusion of extras like group classes which tend to be of questionable value as you advance. Tell me, was their competition competitive? Last time I checked, their competition was focused on pro-am and the students never actually competed against each other as each heat was essentially a 'proficiency' where every student was judged individually (I have never heard of anyone scoring lower than a 95/100 -- even the lady who tripped and fell). In addition to the above, I would daresay I too know many amateurs who were more fundamentally sound in their dance technique than any of the professionals I have seen from there (Note: I will say a friend of mine was once a competitive partner to a teacher at another studio from that franchise and they always did well in professional competition. This same couple was once allowed to compete at one of their franchise competitions. To the organizer's dismay, they proceeded to totally embarrass every other 'professional' couple by running away with the win. LOL, even the photos that were taken show judges unable to stop watching them! Needless to say, they were not invited back). In my opinion, this particular franchise offers the worst value from what I've seen so far. They do offer a good social outlet, that does appear a bit inbred as I generally do not see their students at other social dance events except when they go as a group. However, I do enjoy their company and occassionally crash their parties(they don't dance as well, but.... there are some cute girls in that place! :wink: ).

BlackSheep.... Thank you for your insight, I'm glad to get verification from someone on the 'inside'. Thanks again for your compliment, I know many who would hesitate to call my opinions 'sage advice'! :P

Panthra

07-29-2003, 11:13 PM

Panthra,
I'm not quite sure why paying up front "pissed you off"

MissAlyssa, please don't put words in my mouth. In rereading my post I said it "put me on edge" and by this I hardly meant pissed off. I meant extremely nervous. I don't know about you, but putting $1,000 down up front is a big deal for me considering the amount of money. I want to be sure that the studio will uphold their end of the bargain. I've always paid in installments which I find to make a lot more sense for both the teacher and I.

Say my current instructor left the studio and I still had 2 or 3 lessons. The only reason I take lessons there is for him, he is geared toward competition and is by far the best dancer there. I am literally better than all the other teachers there simply because my focus is competitve and theirs is social. I highly doubt the studio is going to give me the money back for those left over lessons, so where does that leave me? Now *that* would piss me off. :p

I've never had to pay up front, my instructors have always taken care of administrative stuff after the lesson, whether it has been payed for or not.

SD - Cultural anthropology here. :D You? And I just got a book you might be interested in written by an anthropologist and classically trained dancer called Paper Tangos. She studies the whole culture of the tango, it sounds really fascinating. (I forgot the author and I don't have the book in front of me.)

Taita, great posts, I really enjoyed reading them!

SDsalsaguy

07-30-2003, 12:51 AM

Hi Taita….

If you are referring to the same franchise I'm thinking of
:?: Ummm, sorry, maybe I’m just being obtuse at the moment, but I’m unclear about this…both the event I started this thread in reference to and my own personal studio experience are, I had thought, noted as being in reference to Arthur Murray. Maybe the lack of clarity comes from my labeling the thread “Franchise Experiences”?

Anyway, to respond to your question, yes, there actually was competition, i.e., multiple people at the same levels who actually were marked relative to each other. Now certainly there were any number of uncontested entries, but that is also true of the vast majority of independent events as well these days. As an aside, I am not sure if my perception of this is accurate but, at least at first blush, it seems to me that I see more FADS students competing at independent (i.e. NDCA) competitions then I do AMI students. Anyone else have an impression on this? (By the way, I loved your story about your friend and his partner.)

Panthra…given your post I would say that you have good reason to be nervous. Unless I am mistaken, franchise contracts actually include (in the proverbial “small print”) a clause specifying that the contract is with the franchise and not with a particular instructor...and that other instructors can be assigned to a given contract.

As for the academic thing, I’m actually doing my Ph.D. in psychological anthropology—a specialized sub-filed within sociocultural anthropology that tends to focus on the permeable border between culture and personality. As for the book you mention, its written by Julie Taylor and was first published in 1998, by Duke University Press.

luvandliv2dance…looking forward to any comments you may care to offer, especially as someone who was at the event which originally prompted this thread.

—Jonathan

Taita

07-30-2003, 04:44 PM

Hi Jonathan

Ummm, sorry, maybe I’m just being obtuse at the moment, but I’m unclear about this…both the event I started this thread in reference to and my own personal studio experience are, I had thought, noted as being in reference to Arthur Murray. Maybe the lack of clarity comes from my labeling the thread “Franchise Experiences”?

My mistake, I simply did not read your post carefully enough. I also did not wish to offend anyone by naming names. Ironically, AMI is the franchise I was thinking about. It is good to know AMI students do have the opportunity to compete against one another. As far as independent competitions, it does seem to me that I see more FADS students competing at these things than AMI students. As a matter of fact, I don't think I have ever seen an AMI student competing at an independent venue! Can anyone verify this? As far as amateur couples, I do tend to notice the vast majority of them train at independent studios. At first glance, this would suggest that independent studios tend to encourage amateur competition much more than franchises. (BTW, to put icing on the story, my friend was a teacher at an FADS at the time. The AMI organizers knew this. I'm sure they loved giving their first place award to him :wink: ).

Panthra,

Thank you for sharing your experiences, I am glad that you are enjoying my posts. Having years of experience dealing with franchises, you may want to check the fine print on the lesson contract. As far as I know, a studio must refund any unpaid lessons if the student requests it. no questions asked. I have also known of instances where independent studios have honored lesson contracts from other studios (what happens here is one studio will simply purchase the contract from another studio). Also, do not be afraid to make a good business decision for yourself, even if you are afraid it may offend someone. I have in the past refused to take lessons from a teacher who I felt wasn't worth the price of the lessons. Personally, I liked this particular coach, but I didn't feel her teaching style would help me learn as much from her. By word and by action, I made it clear that my decision to not take lessons with her was a business decision, not a personal one. My decision was respected and no animosity ever came of it. In fact, I believe it lead to more respectful dealings from this studio and a higher level of instruction once they realized that I am not afraid of going elsewhere. Also, be clear on your goals. Is your goal to learn from your current instructor? or to become a better dancer? Is it possible that you are needlessly trapping yourself? You may find that you have more options than you believe are available.

P.S. I took the time to check out your blog. Great pictures!

P.P.S. Upon further examination of your blog, it appears that we share a coach! :o

SDsalsaguy

07-30-2003, 04:51 PM

As far as I know, a studio must refund any unpaid lessons if the student requests it. no questions asked.
To the best of my knowledge there is no over-arching requirement to this effect but, rather, that the pertinent regulations and laws vary from state to state. Here is some information provided by the Fereral Trade Commission regarding dance studios back in '92:

Facts for Consumers from the Federal Trade Commission
Dance Studios -- November 1992

Although dance lessons may offer opportunities for fun, entertainment, and companionship, they also may be more expensive than planned, especially if you do not know how to protect yourself against some dance studio sales practices. For example, beware of:
· Signing long-term contracts and prepaying thousands of dollars for dance lessons or clubs that you may be unable to complete or cancel;
· Signing additional contracts before the current one expires;
· Making large prepayments to studios that may be unable to give refunds should they suddenly close or go bankrupt.

In an effort to make consumers aware of certain sales practices used by some dance studios, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has prepared this brochure. It also suggests ways in which you can protect yourself.

Sales Techniques:

If you are thinking about or are already taking dance lessons, you should understand the sales techniques that some dance studios may use to persuade you to take lessons, or to take additional lessons.

Relay Salesmanship:
Some studio instructors use the technique of relay salesmanship (consecutive sales talks by more than one representative in a single day) to try to persuade students to buy lessons or buy more lessons. This tactic may put you under heavy pressure to sign a contract, encouraging you to buy lessons you may later realize you do not want or cannot afford.

Overlapping Contracts:
Some studio instructors try to convince their students during lesson time to sign additional contracts before completing the current lessons. In some instances, you may unwittingly be buying additional lessons that extend beyond your interest, your physical fitness, or even your life expectancy.

High-pressure Sales:
Some studio instructors, using high-pressure sales tactics, exploit student emotions or personal vulnerabilities to oversell lessons. Sometimes, when students refuse to buy additional prepaid lessons, instructors will neglect them in classes, embarrass them in public, or transfer them to a less skilled instructor.

Precautions:

Awareness about the possible use of these sales techniques can help you avoid potential problems. In addition, you may avoid some potential problems if you comparison shop for dance lessons.

Finally, before signing or renewing a contract for dance lessons, consider taking the following measures.

Pay in advance for only a certain number of lessons to see if you like them. You may get a discount if you make a large prepayment on a long-term contract, but it will have little value if later you are unable to take the classes, you want to cancel them, or the studio closes before your lessons are completed. At this time, only a few states require studios to post bonds to protect consumers' prepayments.

Insist that the following items are clearly stated in writing:
· any oral promises;
· the cost per hour of private and group lessons;
· your cancellation and refund rights; (These are important in case you change your mind about lessons, move, or become ill.)
· any prepayment protections, if required by state law.

You can ask about these important items when you comparison shop.

Do not sign a contract immediately, especially if you have concerns about the stability of the studio or are asked to prepay a large amount of money for a lifetime membership, an exclusive club membership, or dance cruise offer. Take time to think about the matter and talk it over with a friend, a family member, or an attorney. Even if your contract offers you a refund or cancellation option, you may be unable to get your money back if the studio closes or its refund check bounces. Prepay only as much as you can afford to lose if the studio closes.

As an additional precaution, you might wish to contact your local or state consumer protection office to learn what rights you may have under local or state law with regard to maximum costs for contracts, cancellation and refund rights, studio bonding requirements, and a "cooling off" period, which may give you a few days to reconsider your decision after you sign your contract. Also, by contacting your local Better Business Bureau office, you may be able to learn if there are any current complaints registered against the dance studio you are considering.

Complaints:

If you have a problem with a dance studio and cannot resolve it, send a letter describing your complaint to your local or state consumer protection agency and your local Better Business Bureau. (Check your phone directory for addresses.) Also, send a copy of your letter to: Correspondence Branch, Federal Trade Commission, Washington, D.C. 20580. Although the FTC generally cannot intervene in individual disputes, the information you provide may indicate a pattern of possible law violations requiring action by the Commission.

DanceMentor

07-30-2003, 05:07 PM

I know the state of Florida has some pretty strict regulations regarding dance studios.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone kept a record of studios that have been featured on television because of their unethical practices?

I once tried to help a lady at a certain franchise location. She pretty much spent $60,000 in one year. Her husband had taken care of the finances, and when he passed away, she was pretty clueless. They had her taking two lessons per day and each lesson was taught by 2 teaches, so she was paying for 4 lessons per day. There were times when they would raise their voice and semi-jokingly, semi-threateningly tell her she had better give them more money if she knew what was good for her. She was lonely and sad and the dance lessons were the drug. Now she is living on Social Security and has nearly nothing left.

There ARE studios like this out there. Usually, it's the elderly that are at the greatest risk.

DanceMentor

07-30-2003, 05:09 PM

Facts for Consumers from the Federal Trade Commission
Dance Studios -- November 1992

Good find, SDsalsaguy! :D

SDsalsaguy

07-31-2003, 01:02 AM

Hmmm, apparently California, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Virginia, Washington and Wisconsin regulate the offer and sale of franchises....anyone know the nature of these regulations?

SDsalsaguy

07-31-2003, 01:05 AM

Here's some background information on AMI as provided by their website.

HISTORY

As America's second oldest franchise oganization, Arthur Murray International, Inc. is known around the world as a prominent entertainment company with franchises located throughout the United states, Canada and Puerto Rico, Europe, the Middle-East, Japan, South Africa and Australia. With the beginning of a new millennium, social dancing is again a significant part of popular culture for all generations. Today the Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studios continue a tradition of more than 88 years in teaching the world to dance. The history of the Arthur Murray Franchised Dance studios began in 1912 with a man named Arthur Murray, an American symbol of entrepreneurial success and social dancing. Murray was among the first to use advertising techniques considered cutting edge at the time. His concept of selling dance lessons by mail, one step at a time, took the use of direct mail to a new level.

Murray's creative use of print advertising attracted national attention as did his business acumen. In March of 1920, using students from Georgia Tech, Murray arranged to have music transmitted to a group of his dance students a few miles away. This was the world's first radio broadcast of live dance music for dancing. Prior to World War II, Arthur Murray teachers were a regular part of every first-class steamship cruise and during the Thirties, the studios introduced such dances to the public as the "Lambeth Walk" and "The Big Apple." In fact it was "The Big Apple" that launched Mr. Murray's one studio into the largest chain of dance studios in the world today. In 1938 the first official opening of a franchised dance school occurred in Minneapolis, Minnesota. In 1942 singer Betty Hutton with the Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra recorded the big hit song "Arthur Murray Taught Me Dancing In A Hurry" for the movie "The Fleet's In" and by 1946 there were 72 Arthur Murray Dance Studios across America.

Arthur Murray was the first to realize the growing popularity of the Latin dances in America during the 1950's. Many conventions were held in Cuba during that time to give Arthur Murray dance trainers first-hand knowledge of the hot new Latin styles and moves that were in vogue and becoming popular. In July 1950, Mr. Murray purchased five fifteen-minute television spots on CBS and persuaded his wife Kathryn to do the teaching. Before the third show, Arthur bought a half-hour summer series on ABC. The show was called the "Arthur Murray Dance Party." By May 1952, the Murray's had televised almost 100 programs. Their TV ratings climbed and in the summer of 1952 they signed with their first sponsor, General Foods. Millions of viewers all over the United States fell in love with the show and flocked to the Arthur Murray Studios throughout the country. This highly popular show ran for twelve years on national television.

When Arthur and Kathryn Murray retired in 1964, a group of franchisees purchased the company and brought a fresh new spirit and leadership to it. Under its new leadership, the Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studios has kept pace with the rapidly changing "youth culture" and continues today to flourish as the world's largest dance instruction organization. Arthur Murray dance teachers can be found not only in the studios, but on the movie sets in Hollywood; backstage on Broadway; and partnering with major entertainers to promote the music that the world dances to. Whenever a movie involves dance, it's a good bet that AMI has been involved in some way, shape or form. Such movies as Dirty Dancing, Dirty Dancing II, Dance With Me, Beautician And The Beast, Flash Dance, An American President, True Lies, Saturday Night Fever and Scent Of A Woman are some of the films which have used Arthur Murray instructors to either teach a dance to the stars and/or dance in the film.

The Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studio's name appears regularly in major national magazines that include Vogue, Martha Stuart Wedding, Smithsonian, Sports Illustrated, Woman's Day and more. Wherever advertisers want to reach consumers with a message of romance, intimacy or just plain fun, you'll see dancing, from the Gap' now famous Khaki Swing commercials to dancing M&M's and gas pumps. Arthur Murray International's commitment to dance goes even further, with senior management heavily involved in the world of professional and amateur competitive dance, known as DanceSport. Many of Arthur Murray's officials have contributed to bringing competitive ballroom to the forefront as an Olympic Sport.

All Arthur Murray franchised Dance Studios are independently owned and operated by individuals who started as dance instructors and worked their way up to the executive level. By the time they are qualified to purchase a franchise, they have experienced every phase of studio operations, from teaching and supervising to marketing and managing. It is possible for an ambitious person to advance to a top executive job and become eligible to be a franchisee within just a few years. Building from within has kept the studio system strong, with franchisees that are committed to the Spirit of Excellence which is the hallmark of the entire Arthur Murray system. Currently there are approximately 180 Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studios worldwide.

AMI also has this to say in its FAQ section:
How qualified will my instructor be?
All of our dance experts must complete a most arduous training regimen. They are experienced on the dance floor and knowledgable in all techniques to help you master today's popular dances. Rest assured the teachers selected for you are the best in the business.

Taita

07-31-2003, 04:39 PM

Thanks for the info Jonathan,

It's good to know the official FTC rules on this matter. As always, one should not be afraid to make sound business decisions for yourself. Dancing is supposed to be fun. I'd hate to see someone lose their love of dance because of a poor business decision. The AMI background is useful too. Did you take lessons at an AMI? What brought you to the aforementioned AMI event? As far as franchise restrictions, I'm not aware of the specifics of these states. However, it is my understanding (just from chatting with a manager of an FADS) that there is a limit to how many lessons in advance they are allowed to sell someone. I'm not sure if this is a company rule or a state regulation. Anybody know for sure?

SDsalsaguy

07-31-2003, 11:31 PM

Hi Taita…as per my original post in this thread I did, in fact, start at an AMI studio. I was actually looking for a place to learn salsa and, at that time, didn’t know any better. :(

As far as the aforementioned AMI event, I was there for my research. I’m wrapping up my primary fieldwork phase this fall and realized that, although I’d visited several franchise studios (including both AMI and FADS), I hadn’t been to a franchise event yet so had wanted to make sure and include that as well.

DanceMentor

07-31-2003, 11:45 PM

Taita,

I'm pretty sure this varies by state. I know Florida, for example, has stricter regulations than other states. I'll try to remember to ask a studio owner (I talk them every day) to see what they have to say.

SDsalsaguy

08-01-2003, 12:05 AM

I'm pretty sure this varies by state. I know Florida, for example, has stricter regulations than other states.

Yes, this came about as a result of legal actions having been pursued against a number of studios that took particularly reprehensible advantage of any number of elderly students.

Spitfire

08-01-2003, 01:43 AM

I've never been to a Fred Astaire and once took a group class from Arthur Murrays; both of which are no longer in town.

Back when I was first learning to dance over 20 years ago one of the other students told me that they had gone to one of the two I don't recall which, but when there was a dance they could only use what they were taught at that studio and not anything learned outside of it. :o

DanceMentor

08-01-2003, 01:48 PM

I spoke with a FADS state director and he told me there is a federal law capping contracts at $7500. He told me that people still sell more than this, especially in Florida.

MissAlyssa

08-01-2003, 02:24 PM

Panthra,
I'm not quite sure why paying up front "pissed you off"

MissAlyssa, please don't put words in my mouth. In rereading my post I said it "put me on edge" and by this I hardly meant pissed off. I meant extremely nervous. I don't know about you, but putting $1,000 down up front is a big deal for me considering the amount of money. I want to be sure that the studio will uphold their end of the bargain. I've always paid in installments which I find to make a lot more sense for both the teacher and I.

Say my current instructor left the studio and I still had 2 or 3 lessons. The only reason I take lessons there is for him, he is geared toward competition and is by far the best dancer there. I am literally better than all the other teachers there simply because my focus is competitve and theirs is social. I highly doubt the studio is going to give me the money back for those left over lessons, so where does that leave me? Now *that* would piss me off. :p

I've never had to pay up front, my instructors have always taken care of administrative stuff after the lesson, whether it has been payed for or not.

Panthra,
Clearly a missunderstanding. You can only get SO much out of what someone types and frankly, I missinterpreted your statement.

DanceMentor

08-01-2003, 02:33 PM

In support of the programs that franchises sell, I will say that programs can really help a student to stay committed. Also, many studios offer payment plans. Even though you commit to a certain amount of money, you are making payments, and it's pretty easy to get out of the contract if the services have not been rendered.

SDsalsaguy

08-01-2003, 04:17 PM

it's pretty easy to get out of the contract if the services have not been rendered. This is entirely dependent upon the franchisee! Some actually have ethical business practices and understand that, in the long run, good business involves customer satisfaction even of a student who wants to leave. I, myself, however, was given a very hard time in this regard and was not allowed such an out…and I know of several others with like experiences!

Many (most?) franchisees do, of course, understand this and conduct themselves accordingly. And, as some of the posts in this thread have pointed out, the value of the franchise programs can be quite good when group classes and parties are taken into consideration—especially earlier on in one’s dancing “career.” Also, and I really do want to stress this, the enthusiasm and camaraderie that I have seen at studio events is unmatched by any USABDA or NDCA event (although I would put the college circuit in the same boat).

The problem is that franchisees (not that they are unique in this regard) often want it both ways—they want the name recognition of their franchise without the concomitant “used-car-sales” smarminess also being associated with them as the results of an unscrupulous minority. One key element then is that the franchises need to do a better job of self-policing such that the few do not continue to discredit the reputations of the ethical majority. The problem, however, remains apparent in the Teflon-esque claim of “it depends on the franchisee” when still claiming only the benefits of franchise systems.

Note, for instance, this comment:
I spoke with a FADS state director and he told me there is a federal law capping contracts at $7500. He told me that people still sell more than this, especially in Florida. Breaches of federal regulations are known, yet the problem remains!

SDsalsaguy

08-01-2003, 05:19 PM

You can only get SO much out of what someone types and frankly, I missinterpreted your statement.
A good point for us all to remember MissAlyssa! Thanks for the reminder! Also nice to "see" you again :D

MissAlyssa

08-02-2003, 04:39 PM

B. Smith

08-08-2003, 01:27 PM

In the registration process it says that "slanderous" claims would be a bad thing, yet I notice that several posters say "the chain" or "the franchise." Why not spit it out? Say it out loud or zip it. This forum/thread seems to be leaning towards a few other s from other sites. Ones that anonomously ripped AMI and FADS without recourse. Yes, I am FADS. Yes, I am offended by anonomous mud slinging.
I do agree that some franchisees are better business people than others, some are better dancers than others. However, we do have to follow legal guidelines that independents do not. Including sales limits and the "terrible" contracts. So many independents brag about no contracts. Big deal, we have to use them. I would use them even if I did not have a franchise. They make everything clear. The students know what they're getting from beginning to end. They also end the " you're my favorite student" discount. This one pays "x" and that one pays"2x." Everyone can compare and see they are all being treated well.
Last thought: treat the franchises with a bit of respect. We have helped spread the ballroom bug for over 50 years. Many of the top competitors would not be where they are had they not started with AMI or FADS. And we will be here a long, long time.
B.

B. Smith

08-08-2003, 01:29 PM

Sorry for the typos and misspellings.
B.

DanceMentor

08-08-2003, 01:56 PM

Hi B. Smith,

I'm glad you've joined the discussion, keeping this from becoming one-sided. You make some great points. Let me put some of them into my own words:
1. Franchises have been a major force in bringing ballroom dancing to the masses.
2. A contract also makes certain promises to the student to help keep the studio honest.
3. Just because some frachises aren't well run, that doesn't make all franchises bad. And folks, there are some awesome franchise studios out there!
4. In the US, I would be willing to bet that at least 75% the top competitors received training at a franchise.

B. Smith, people are not required to reveal their identity, but they may if they wish. Concerning liability, there have been cases of people being sued for making posts on forums. However, the forums themselves have been protected from liabilty in recent court judgements.

I think it's okay for someone to say something like, "I felt I was misled at an Arthur Murray studio", but not "The Arthur Murray Studio at 123 Main Street is running a scam on every student that walks through the door." If we noticed such a post that was specific to one studio, it would be edited or deleted.

Once again, I want to emphasize there are some wonderful Fred Astaire and Arthur Murray studios out there and there are also some terrible fly-by-night independant studios out there.

SDsalsaguy

08-08-2003, 02:27 PM

B. Smith...welcome to the forums and thank you for contributing to this thread.

As I have tried to point out in my various posts, the franchises (both AMI and FADS) include both good and bad--just like anything in life! If you have additional points regarding what you perceive as benefits or advantages of FADS (or franchises in general) then please feel free to add those to our discussion. I, for one, would welcome such contributions.

On the issue of contracts, it should also be pointed out that the term is not a singular, monolithic referent. For one, not all contracts are created equal. I have visited franchise studios where the price per unit remains constant regardless of the number of units purchased and others with discounts for larger purchases. I'm not making a judgment call on this, but just pointing out that even the term "contract" has some variability involved as well. It should also be kept in mind that there are any numbers of independent schools who work on a contract basis as well--this is far from the unique purview of the chain schools.

Finally, as a point of clarification, I have been saying "franchise/franchises" in order to keep the thread open to input from all, not just those from one chain, so if that generalization was taken in the wrong way I do apologize.

(FYI, I did look on the FADS website for a history comparable to the one provided by AMI but, unfortunately, none such was available. Do you know of anything to this effect that could be shared?)

DanceMentor

08-08-2003, 02:34 PM

What is a singular, monolithic referent?

Sounds like something out of 2001 a Space Oddysey. :tongue:
(sorry to get off topic)

SDsalsaguy

08-08-2003, 02:47 PM

What is a singular, monolithic referent?

Sounds like something out of 2001 a Space Oddysey. :tongue:
(sorry to get off topic)

Sorry for slipping into "academese" (I'm grading some make-up finals at the moment, so that just sort of slipped out I guess). I was trying to point out that the term "contract," as it was being used here, did not just mean one large thing but, rather, actually included a range of related concepts and practices.

pygmalion

09-09-2003, 10:41 AM

Here's a little more perspective on the franchise thing. Bear in mind that my experience is limited to one franchise, and one independent studio, so the observations I make may not be representative of everything out there.

At the franchise studio I attended, I ran into a very proprietary attitude from instructors, particularly since I was one of their best customers. My first instructor claimed me as "his" student and got very testy at the very suggestion I might want to take lessons with anyone else, whether for women's styling, or to broaden my knowledge of dances he didn't know.

Also at the same studio, students who had the most junior of teachers were charged the same rate as those taking lessons with the most experienced instructors, which I find to be ridiculous. $100 an hour for a teacher who just started dancing six weeks ago and just completed training? Absurd, but that's how they did it.

Also, be cautious about the "extras" making dance lessons a better value. Not necessarily. Do the math, if you're taking multiple lessons per week. The "value" of group lessons and practice parties diminishes quickly when spread over two or more lessons per week.

msc

09-09-2003, 07:09 PM

It sort of depends on your level too. The more advanced you become, the more value you'll get out of lessons with advanced instructors. I kind of hate to say this, but I probably learn more in an hour from my current instructor than I've learned in 20 with previous ones. Even if they're more expensive, they're worth it. $100 usually buys an hour from a really good instructor around here, and there are many fairly experienced instructors whose time can be purchased at around the $50-$65 /hr range, depending on the dance.

pygmalion

09-09-2003, 07:53 PM

Hey msc,

Same experience here. My early lessons were fun, but had very little value, comparatively speaking. Now, I take far fewer lessons, but learn much more. Who would have thought?

SDsalsaguy

09-09-2003, 08:52 PM

Yup...price and value are two discrete things! They overlap at times, but that doesn't make them synonymous.

DanceMentor

10-09-2003, 01:40 PM

...and it's always good to get references from outside sources.

pygmalion

10-11-2003, 12:45 PM

True. References are a good way to make sure you're getting quality and value. And also make sure you know your own goals. Social dance and exhibition style dance are two different things, so before choosing a studio (or as soon as you can), decide what you want. This will prevent misunderstandings and disappointments.

MissAlyssa

10-11-2003, 05:15 PM

I'd like to note that FADS doesn't have binding contracts, they have simple agreements that can be terminated at any time with no excuses.

smoothdancingirl

10-12-2003, 06:12 AM

As you may notice...the majority of professional teachers (and I mean people that do this for their full time job) are not from the US. Most the people in our profession working here in the are from Europe. Hence all the Slavic sounding names. Anyway ballroom dancing has not been in the past something that children are trained to do in the US. Although this trend is currently changing. And most of the children taking dance are studying ballet, jazz, modern, etc. So that leaves a huge gap when studios are looking for new teachers. They are forced then to either import or train new teachers. Most opt to train people that have a dance background in another form of dance. I personally fell into this catagory. I have been dancing since the age of three, but didn't start training in ballroom until I was 22. So of course their are many professionals like myself that had to start competing some time and some where. I was thankful that when I did start competing that the the franchise I worked for offered a division for new professionals. It really helped build my confidence and helped me become a better teacher. Believe me if I would have had to start competing in Rising Star my first comp I probably would have never started at all. It is not only intimidating to dance against some of those fabulous dancers, but it also takes a certain amount of floor craft. And floor craft unfortunately is something you can only learn by actually dancing on the competition floor. And believe me social parties are like a walk in the park compared to competition. Also some smaller competitions don't offer Rising Star events only Open. And the small independent competitions are the ones you try to tackle after the comfort of your franchise comps. For example the first independent comp I ever competed at only had Open catagory for professionals. My partner and I were dancing right away against some of the top ranked pros like Ben and Shalene Archer. Nerve racking!

pygmalion

10-12-2003, 08:42 AM

There's another post under articles, I think, that you may want to comment on as well. I think it's called the future of dancesport, or something like that. It talks about potentially changing the rules so that competitors are categorized by dance experience, rather then being given the somewhat arbitrary titles of amateur or professional depending on whether they're being paid, the way things are now.

pygmalion

10-12-2003, 08:44 AM

Anyway ballroom dancing has not been in the past something that children are trained to do in the US. Although this trend is currently changing. And most of the children taking dance are studying ballet, jazz, modern, etc. So that leaves a huge gap when studios are looking for new teachers.

I've noticed that, as well. It's a totally different world in Europe and other places, where children are trained in ballroom practically from when they can walk. Not like here, where people start as young (or not-so-young :lol: ) adults.

I wonder why that is?

pygmalion

10-12-2003, 08:46 AM

So of course their are many professionals like myself that had to start competing some time and some where. I was thankful that when I did start competing that the the franchise I worked for offered a division for new professionals. It really helped build my confidence and helped me become a better teacher. Believe me if I would have had to start competing in Rising Star my first comp I probably would have never started at all. It is not only intimidating to dance against some of those fabulous dancers, but it also takes a certain amount of floor craft. And floor craft unfortunately is something you can only learn by actually dancing on the competition floor. And believe me social parties are like a walk in the park compared to competition. Also some smaller competitions don't offer Rising Star events only Open. And the small independent competitions are the ones you try to tackle after the comfort of your franchise comps. For example the first independent comp I ever competed at only had Open catagory for professionals. My partner and I were dancing right away against some of the top ranked pros like Ben and Shalene Archer. Nerve racking!

As soon as I can think of a way to pose the question, I'll set up a thread where you can share some of your competition experiences with us.

By the way, yay! I'm glad you're here. Welcome to the forums. :D

MissAlyssa

10-12-2003, 06:30 PM

SDsalsaguy

10-12-2003, 07:53 PM

Fair enough... certainly the franchise system provides an excellent entry point, training, and competitive experience for those who haven't been dancing for years already. And having a "starting-out" category is fine for helping out with floor experience, etc. Basically then the question becomes how, in any way, does having such beginning pro events benefit anyone but the new instructors, i.e. the consumers/students? More specifically, two questions come to mind:

(1) Even if a "beginner" event, why not still have a full division, i.e. 4/5 dances, like the independent comp rising star division? As pointed out in another thread dancing and teaching dance are two different, albeit highly related, skills. So, while I recognize that a great teacher may not be a great competitor, I still wonder if someone should be presenting themselves as a competing professional if they are dancing the equivalent of an amateur pre-novice, open event (2 dances).

(2) Why should this "floorcraft training" essentially be subsidized by students? The prize money for these events are coming from additional padding added to student prices. If we're talking a full rising star or open professional event then I can see it...but to watch "professional competitors" do the aforementioned two dance event?

pygmalion

10-12-2003, 08:00 PM

Okay, so I'm jaundiced. But I think that this system is designed to primarily benefit the dance studios and/or the new teachers. (Edit: by "this system" I meant the franchise studio system. I was not talking about dance competitions, which are a different issue, in my mind) The students, for the most part, pay the costs, with few benefits. Why do the students go along with it? For the most part, because they don't know better and/or there are no better alternatives. * shrug* What can I say? I've had some pretty bad experiences with otherwise nice people who were turned into self-serving salesmen by the franchise studio system. :?

MissAlyssa

10-12-2003, 11:50 PM

wow, that really sucks that you had that experience Jenn. I promise not all of us franchised instructors are predators.

pygmalion

10-13-2003, 01:53 AM

Yes, I know, MissAlyssa. No matter where you go in life, there are good people and bad. Dance instructors are no different. *shrug* What can you do but beware, but stay open-minded.

smoothdancingirl

10-13-2003, 08:59 AM

Basically then the question becomes how, in any way, does having such beginning pro events benefit anyone but the new instructors, i.e. the consumers/students?

The more I know and can do the more my students will benefit. (Keep in mind I have been dancing since I was three. So while I had inexperience in ballroom I had years and a degree in classical dance. Many of the techniques & so forth do overlap. )

More specifically, two questions come to mind:

(1) Even if a "beginner" event, why not still have a full division, i.e. 4/5 dances, like the independent comp rising star division? As pointed out in another thread dancing and teaching dance are two different, albeit highly related, skills. So, while I recognize that a great teacher may not be a great competitor, I still wonder if someone should be presenting themselves as a competing professional if they are dancing the equivalent of an amateur pre-novice, open event (2 dances).
They also did have a rising star event and open. However I will tell you preparing two dances is a lot easier than four. Also in the future champion events you don't need a gown and tux. Both as you know are very expensive. This event is only for teachers who have been in the business for less than a 1 1/2 yr. or less. That means you have to find a compatible partner and get two routines together in 1 1/2 yr. That's almost impossible. I was in the business for three years before I found my current partner and it took us another two years before we had all our choreography and ready to perform it.

(2) Why should this "floorcraft training" essentially be subsidized by students? The prize money for these events are coming from additional padding added to student prices. If we're talking a full rising star or open professional event then I can see it...but to watch "professional competitors" do the aforementioned two dance event?

You don't have to take students to compete professionally at any competition. In fact most comps I go to I don't take students. But when I was a new teacher competing in future champions division I was there with a newcomer student, so was my former dance partner. Plus professional routines are much more difficult than even some Gold students routines. So the floorcraft is a lot more challenging than fwd-fwd-sd-together! :)

pygmalion

10-13-2003, 09:39 AM

wow, that really sucks that you had that experience Jenn. I promise not all of us franchised instructors are predators.

Now that I've had a little time to reflect on this, MissAlyssa, I'll reply again. I've had nine dance teachers so far. Two of them, coincidentally at a franchise, were snakes. :evil: The other seven, six franchise and one independent, are all very nice people.

The difference between the independent and franchise teachers, is that the franchise people are under much more pressure to make sales, and they're given training and scripts and coaching in how to make sales.

My independent instructor can make his own rules and can live by his own conscience, which appears to say give the students good training at a fair price -- no pressure. I'm sure, if he were still working at a franchise, which he did for years, the story might be different. Not because he wanted it that way, but because he was pressured into making it that way.

Here's my overall take, say what you will. Most, if not all, dance teachers have one agenda, the same agenda as the rest of us mere mortals. They want to use what they know to make a decent living. And that's fair. They deserve to make a decent living.

The problems start when people, dance teachers or otherwise, use the need to make a living as an excuse for indirect, or high pressure, or deceptive tactics. And I'm sure you find that in franchises and out. *shrug*

pygmalion

10-13-2003, 10:24 AM

SDsalsaguy

10-13-2003, 11:50 AM

(2) Why should this "floorcraft training" essentially be subsidized by students? The prize money for these events are coming from additional padding added to student prices. If we're talking a full rising star or open professional event then I can see it...but to watch "professional competitors" do the aforementioned two dance event?

You don't have to take students to compete professionally at any competition. In fact most comps I go to I don't take students. But when I was a new teacher competing in future champions division I was there with a newcomer student, so was my former dance partner. Plus professional routines are much more difficult than even some Gold students routines. So the floorcraft is a lot more challenging than fwd-fwd-sd-together! :)
Hmmm, let me be clearer. Even if you don't take students with you when you are competing professionally, where does the pro prize money come from? From extra padding added to other students’ packages to offset this expenditure.

pygmalion

10-13-2003, 02:22 PM

SDsalsaguy

10-13-2003, 09:56 PM

I like the R&D metaphor Jenn. Hadn't thought of it that way before...hmmm, must go ponder...

pygmalion

10-20-2003, 10:12 AM

Here's my take on this, SD. Bear in mind I'm biased, because I have a great instructor who works hard to keep prices low, so the "padding" is minimal. ( Thanks, guy. You know who you are. :D )

To me, this is like the old R&D argument. Everybody wants the new improved product but nobody wants to pay the development costs. (Sorry. Years in Bell Labs -- what can I say?)

Here's the thing. If my instructor is an experienced competitor, I benefit. If there are lots of competitions that I can enter, I benefit. If world class dancers and judges see me dance and critique me, I benefit. The only way to make those things happen, that I can see, is to provide some sort of incentive to make it worth people's effort to sponsor or to enter these competitions. I know, at least for smaller competitions, the purses aren't that big, but at least there is some incentive. These are my thoughts.

Please correct me, because I'm sure don't have the whole picture. :? Anyone?

I didn't mean to kill the conversation here. I was hoping that someone would come back with things they've seen done or out-of-the box suggestions to improve the current situation. Things like corporate sponsorships, or entry scholarships for juniors, or for people who demonstrate financial need. Or caps on allowable mark-ups studios can charge, or recommended price guidelines. Come on, folks, let's think about it. :D

DennisBeach

10-21-2003, 12:39 AM

Me and my wife decided to try ballroom dancing about 3.5 years ago. We went to a Fred Astaire studio after seeing an introductory offer in the newspaper. We quickly discovered, we liked ballroom dancing and have continued with the studio ever since. We have tried a few group lessons and found we do not like group lessons, we also do not learned a fraction as much as we do in our 2 hours at the studio every 3 weeks. We have had quite a few different instructors, since they do move around a lot, particularily with 4 studios in Milwaukee. Teachers have ranged from good to excellent. All have been extremely nice. Taking 2 lessons every 3 weeks, we are not a big source of revenue for them, but they treat us extremely well.

Our objective is purely social dancing. They originally tried to talk us into showcases and competitions, but that is not our area of interest. Once it was clear, what our objectives were, they have been very supportive of our goals. We are rather frugal ( cheap ), so we really have to be convinced of the value, to spend the money for lessons at a major franchise. But we felt that FADS is the best value for our investment.

We practise at least once a week and go dancing once a week. Even though we only take lessons every 3 weeks, we are progressed way beyond our expectations.

The studio also tries to match the teachers to the students. As we have progressed, the capabilities of the teachers they assign to us, has went up. We currently have one teacher, who is awsome at technique and has really helped us improve extensively in 6 months he has worked with us.

They but us in what they call the amalgamated program or something like that, that allows them to work with us at different levels in each dance, based on our progress in that dance.

There organization is very beneficial, when a teacher leaves, the new teacher just needs to review our book to see where we are at. They also pick the patterns that we will be able to use on a rather crowded dance floor. We have been very please with FADS and would recommend them to any who wants get into social or competitive ballroom dancing.

SDsalsaguy

10-21-2003, 03:12 AM

Hi Dennis, and welcome to the forums!

Thanks for sharing your perspective as a very satisfied customer. I'm glad to hear that your experiences have been so positive, that your goals have been accepted and respected, and that you and your wife have met with such enjoyment and success. :D

Out of curiosity, what actually drew you are your wife to try ballroom? What was it that grabbed you once you tried it?

And, again, welcome to the forums!

pygmalion

10-21-2003, 05:19 AM

Hi Dennis! :D Welcome to the forums. :D

Yes, from what I've heard, many people are very happy with their experience at Fred Astaire studios. Enjoy the studio, and, more importantly, enjoy the dancing.

Welcome to the forums. :D

Jenn

DennisBeach

10-21-2003, 07:54 PM

Thanks for the welcome. When we started, I thought we would learn a little and maybe going dance once every couple of months. I did not think we would like it enough to drive 50 plus miles to dance every week. We keep hearing, we need to exercise. In my opinion the key to actually doing that, is finding something we enjoy, that provides good exercise. Ballroom dance really covers that for us. It also puts the courtship back in the marraige, which is something that we should never lose.

The people at the studio seem to really enjoy helping people get into something that provides enjoyment and excellent exercise.

pygmalion

11-29-2003, 06:55 PM

Here's an interesting article which summarizes one person's view of the relative advantages and disadvantages of lessons at a franchise studio.

http://www.friendsofdance.com/advantages_of_a_major_chain_stud.htm

pygmalion

11-29-2003, 08:58 PM

Another good article here, which bgreaks down what a new student can expect from taking lessons at a typical dance studio -- enlightening stuff, here.

http://www.friendsofdance.com/what_to_expect_from_any_dance_st.htm

DancingMommy

12-04-2003, 11:31 AM

Here's some background information on AMI as provided by their website.

AMI also has this to say in its FAQ section:
How qualified will my instructor be?
All of our dance experts must complete a most arduous training regimen. They are experienced on the dance floor and knowledgable in all techniques to help you master today's popular dances. Rest assured the teachers selected for you are the best in the business.

This makes me laugh out loud. Really. On the inside. I started dancing at an Arthur Murray franchise in Atlanta (got good training from the owner - but the other teachers were a different story).

I ended up *teaching* if you can believe it not too long after that - a twist of fate really - both in Atlanta and in Orlando. And then I ended up "retiring" permanently from teaching due to a serious back injury.

I now dance am with my husband (when I'm not pregnant, lol). We train with Rick Elliott at Longwood Independant Studio in Longwood, FL.

I can say this with assurance... Not all franchises are equal and not all independant studios are equal. If I compared the independant I worked at in Orlando (owned/operated by a former AMI franchisee and former partner of the owner of the AMI in Atlanta that I began at) to the studio we currently train at, there is NO comparison whatsoever. Of course, comparing Rick to "the other guy" is apples and oranges considering that Rick is a former Blackpool Finalist (as a junior) and is currently ranked with his new partner in Am Smooth. The "other guy" last competed in the 60s (I think). Go figure.

I'll say this for the AMI owner in Atlanta, the woman KNOWS how to teach. And she knows how to run a business. I only wish it hadn't cost so much for lessons. :-)

DancingMommy

12-04-2003, 11:38 AM

I spoke with a FADS state director and he told me there is a federal law capping contracts at $7500. He told me that people still sell more than this, especially in Florida.

There are some pretty stiff regs here in FLA regarding the sale of contracts, etc. I know for a fact, that a studio has to have like a minimum of $15,000 bond if they sell contracts.

The law basically revolves around this dollar amount: you collect more than $200 tuition at one time, you have to have a bond and a contract with super-specific wording regarding refunds etc. That's why there are a SLEW of independants here and not that many franchises/"typical" studios.

In fact, most "studios" are pretty much run "like franchises" but without benefit of the network of coaches etc. These particular studios really suck as far as their teachers and the quality of their students' learning.

That being said, I'm aware that NDCA has passed a ruling that all registered pros have to get "certified" through a member org by a certain date, or their NDCA membership will not be renewed. I'm hoping that will alleviate *some* of the bad teacher problem we have down here (at least as far as comps are concerned). Hopeful, but not really expecting it to do much.

That in itself was one reason why I quit teaching (along with the back injury). I knew there was NO way on earth I could get certified before the deadline in all 10 dances/9 dances. Currently, we're just working on our standard routines and getting ready for our first am comp.

DancingMommy

12-04-2003, 11:53 AM

I didn't mean to kill the conversation here. I was hoping that someone would come back with things they've seen done or out-of-the box suggestions to improve the current situation. Things like corporate sponsorships, or entry scholarships for juniors, or for people who demonstrate financial need. Or caps on allowable mark-ups studios can charge, or recommended price guidelines. Come on, folks, let's think about it. :D

Here's the deal... Up until now, competitions in general have been <ahem> difficult to know about unless you were "in the know" or had a contact that was. Now, with the advent of places like AccessDance where comps list everything on the website - including order forms, etc and *prices*!!! Even an average joe can go about ordering tickets etc without paying the usual markup that studios charge. Also, organizers are starting to offer "local" or "no room" packages for attendees who could otherwise make alternate arrangements for food and lodging that are more budget-wise.

I'm all for mark-up caps on the prices that the organizers charge. Or better yet, let there be competitors "at large" who choose to compete without a studio affiliation. I know that AMs can do that...

Also, I have had a formula worked out for some time that actually limits the amount that an AM in a Pro/Am would have to pay. It's pretty complicated but it works, lol. :-) It is predicated of course, on whether or not the Pro is already attending a comp and how many other students are attending with said Pro. I don't think most AMs like to be baby-sat (as one of my former employers called it) like some studio owners think they do. If you are going there to dance, then do that. It isn't a freaking Disney World Vacation after all. I mean if you go to Disney World, do you expect Mickey to shuttle you around and be your tour guide? Heck no.

</end rant>

DanceMentor

12-04-2003, 12:12 PM

If you are going there to dance, then do that. It isn't a freaking Disney World Vacation after all. I mean if you go to Disney World, do you expect Mickey to shuttle you around and be your tour guide? Heck no.

ROTFLMAO :lol:

SDsalsaguy

12-04-2003, 02:36 PM

Ok DancingMommy, but but now tell us how you really feel! :lol: :lol: :lol:

DancingMommy

12-04-2003, 03:42 PM

Ok DancingMommy, but but now tell us how you really feel! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you *really* want to know??? Cuz I can GO ON AND ON on that one....

I've seen both sides of the fence on this one and I do have an opinion. :wink:

OK, so here's the magic formula for keeping comp costs reasonable for the student.....

1. Determine number of students attending
2. Count number of entries/student
3. Determine what days each student will be competing
4. Is the pro going to compete with a pro partner?

if "yes", and the pro heats are danced on the same day as same of the heats as any of the students, delete that day as a teacher expense or at minimum only charge for the actual time you will be focused on your students. You'll be there anyway and it isn't fair to charge students for time that you are using to pursue your goals as a pro.

if "no" or "yes" and the pro heats are NOT danced on the same day as same of the heats as any of the students, add that day as a teacher expense.

5. Determine which packages/travel arrangements work best for which students. If a student is only competing on one day, then don't have them buy more package than they need. They'll thank you for it!

Sometimes (especially at local comps) students are only going for a few hours and don't care to get all the "stuff" - programs, etc. and don't need a hotel. I know for us at Sunshine State in '01, we actually got our hotel using the Florida Resident discount. It ended up being CHEAPER than the comp rate. :-) And never underestimate the power of places like expedia.com.

Here is the most complicated example I can come up with:

You have 4 students going to a comp that lasts 3 days.
Your students are competing all 3 days, but only 1 is competing the full 3 days, one is competing 2 days & the other 2 are competing 1 day.
You are competing with your pro partner on 2 of those days.
You are one very busy pro!

On a grid it looks like this:

Day 1 Day 2 Day 3
Student 1 Student 1 Student 1
Student 2 Student 2
Student 3 Student 3
Student 4
Pro Comp Pro Comp

Student 1 is not dancing that many entries, but they are spread out.
Student 2 is dancing a ton of one-dance events as well as scholarships.
Student 3 is dancing scholarships and solo exhibitions.
Student 4 is only dancing one dance events.
You (the pro) are dancing rising star one day and open the next.

How to split "expenses":
Day one should be split evenly by 3 since there are 3 students.
Day two should be split evenly by 5 since there are 3 students and you and partner will be there competing anyway.
Day three should be split evenly by 4 since there are 2 students and you and partner will be there competing anyway.

Only on day one should the pro in question think about getting reimbursed for food or hotel since they would already be there in the first place for days 2 & 3. Days 2 & 3 are deductible business expenses for the pro.

Students should be responsible for their own food/lodging if *not* on a package. Pros shouldn't mark up the package prices as they are already large enough as it is. If you want to charge something, charge for the actual time that you will be with the students dancing with them (IE: per entry surcharge). A typical reaonable surcharge per entry would be about $10. After all, how much do you get paid for an hour lesson? Say $60/hr. How long are you dancing that one entry? Maybe 2 minutes? Figure that you have on deck time, practice time, whatever, you can't charge a whole day's pay to every student who is going. They *will* compare notes.

For students going as spectators, don't even think about upcharging!!! Shame on you if you do! My husband ran into this once. The studio wanted to charge him $700 for one night accomodation including spectating NOT including food. He said NO WAY! I know for a fact that other teachers at the same studio were offering the same "deal" for $500. Shame shame shame.

I know this is long and probably doesn't make any sense, but I have a spreadsheet somewhere from when I used to teach... Maybe if I can find it, I'll post it...

pygmalion

12-05-2003, 08:58 AM

In fact, most "studios" are pretty much run "like franchises" but without benefit of the network of coaches etc. These particular studios really suck as far as their teachers and the quality of their students' learning.

That being said, I'm aware that NDCA has passed a ruling that all registered pros have to get "certified" through a member org by a certain date, or their NDCA membership will not be renewed. I'm hoping that will alleviate *some* of the bad teacher problem we have down here (at least as far as comps are concerned). Hopeful, but not really expecting it to do much.

Fortunately, not all independent studios are run like franchises, at least in terms of the contracts, etc. I'm currently studying at two independent studios in Orlando, and it's a totally different story there. Fortunately, because my trust of dance teachers was spread pretty thin after my franchise experiences.

Also, did you know that AMI and FADS are both NDCA-approved member organizations? So they can basically certify their own teachers from within. So, as you say, some of thebad teacher problem can be eliminated, but some will likely remain. :(

pygmalion

12-05-2003, 09:01 AM

[Here's the deal... Up until now, competitions in general have been <ahem> difficult to know about unless you were "in the know" or had a contact that was. Now, with the advent of places like AccessDance where comps list everything on the website - including order forms, etc and *prices*!!! Even an average joe can go about ordering tickets etc without paying the usual markup that studios charge. Also, organizers are starting to offer "local" or "no room" packages for attendees who could otherwise make alternate arrangements for food and lodging that are more budget-wise.

Oh Dancing Mommy. I'm going to love having you around! :D Yes, and dancesportcomps.com is another place to get that sort of information. Some promoters are more forthcoming with information than others, though. Some have prices and everything listed, some, you have to be a registered pro to access the information -- so it's go through a pro, or you're out of luck.

DancingMommy

12-05-2003, 09:14 AM

Some have prices and everything listed, some, you have to be a registered pro to access the information -- so it's go through a pro, or you're out of luck.

Or "former pro" - hint hint. 8)

FYI, I still get all the info from most of the comps going on (even though I don't *ask* for it). It's the only direct mail I like, LOL.

Anyone want comp info, come to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :P

twodance

01-01-2004, 03:47 AM

Boy a lot of opinions on this topic !!
I used to work for AMI as a manager. my wife used to work at FADS. Now we own an independent studio. Most of the independent owners started at one of the franchises. So there is not really any difference between the two. Both have to follow the same laws. The ballroom industry was regulated by the FTC in the 1970's, due to unethical practices by the franchises. This is where the contracts came from. No school is doing you a favor by having you sign a contract... it's the law.
In the state of Ohio the legal limit for dance lessons is 200 lessons or $12,000.00 which ever comes first. These are known as 'Blue Sky 'laws and change from state to state. In Ill. the limit I belive is only $3000.00 so the limit varies a lot. In Ohio any thing sold over $300.00 has to be on a contract. My best advice is don't be a victim. Know the law, call your Att. General's office in your state for your laws and if the studio has any backgroud of unfavorable business practices.

twodance

01-01-2004, 03:56 AM

To get info. about any competition simply write or e-mail the organizer and tell them you are an Ameteur couple. They will send you the entire package cost and all. Things have changed over the years and the information is there if you want it. (If you tell them are part of a studio they will send the info. to the studio)

pygmalion

01-01-2004, 10:32 AM

Yes. This topic generated a lot of discussion, didn't it? 8)

The vast majority of the independent studios here offer lessons on a pay-as-you-go basis, with no contracts at all, just personal commitments. That seems to work very well. Only the franchise studios still do the long term contracts, and the contracts do seem to be weighted in favor of the studios, rather than the students.

dreamalways

02-07-2004, 09:36 PM

dreamalways

02-07-2004, 09:42 PM

Just looked back up at posts and saw TwoDance said to contact organizers.

Anyone with any info on this i'd appreciate hearing what a AM event runs on the average, for example the Dance-O-Ramas.

I have been quoted a average price of $2,500.00 and that is without airfare.

How does that sound to anyone from the franchise world?

SDsalsaguy

02-07-2004, 09:53 PM

Hi dream always.... I've never competed within the franchise system so can't speak to how typical that price sounds. As far as I can tell, however, the prices for most *in franchise* events probably isn't subject to all that much fluctuation. This doesn't, of course, mean that there isn't a lot of mark up in the prices, just that your studio probably isn't too much different from any others.

Just my $.02...

tango

02-08-2004, 01:00 PM

The franchise events are significantly more than other events. At my franchise studio a competition runs about $3500CDN ($2500US). Non franchise events are much cheaper (about $800 depending on many things) and here is why:

1. With the franchises you have to bring along all the instructors, so you're paying their way (hotel room, travel, salary, food, etc.) The reason all the staff go along is that it's a training session for them. Non-franchise events you don't have to pay for someone else's rooms and meals, just yours.

2. You're stuck with them...i.e. you get a hotel room for 3 or so days and and you eat, dance and socialize with them. There's no time for anything else. Also, since it's sold as a package picking your room and own meals is out of the question. Non-franchise you can pick your own hotel and eat where you choose.

3. I'm not sure of the cost of 'heats' but in non-franchise you pick your own and generally it's $10 to $20 per heat. With franchises you never know the cost but I've heard it runs $40 to $80 per heat. This may be specific to Pro-Am couples.

4. Also, the higher costs represent the judges fees. The last comp I attended they had: Cher Rutherford, Alain Doucet and Anik Jolicoeur (Canadian Champs), Jean Marc Generoux and France Mousseau. They judged and did some showcase performances for the two nights. These people don't come cheap so you pay with an increased entrance fee.

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 01:16 PM

Hmm. That $2500 sounds about right. I paid less than half of that, but mine was a one-day comp, with no hotel stay required, and involved only one pro, so there was no overhead for all the teachers involved.

Actually, DancingMommy may have more good input on the actual costs, since she has access to the pro-only wholesale package info. And the cost to the student may vary from studio to studio, tango. The dance pros get a wholesaler's package and calculate their own markup. Some of the horror stories I've heard lead me to believe that the markup can be much higher at some studios than at others, so make sure you're working with people you trust.

Do you have a particular comp in mind, tango?

tango

02-08-2004, 01:48 PM

The franchise comps are only available to students at the franchise. They're actually quite small (there's only six franchise's in the province) so I think the markup is slightly higher, but not unreasonable for two people. They do take care of you though... they haul your suitecases to the rooms, get you for dinner, provide free drinks, act like your friend and generally make sure you have a good time.

The non-franchise event was the Falls Premier Ball in Niagra Falls, Ontario (http://www.fallspremierball.com). I didn't attend, I was busy getting married. It's more reasonable for budget minded people since you can pick and choose your lodgings and where to eat, etc. etc.

I have a partner so I don't need to bring along a pro and their rental fees, which is nice, but I would also like to have a coach for these events.

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 01:58 PM

Okay, this link is hitting the nail on the head.

I am very unhappy with my AM studio because I believe the owner is marking competitions up too much. But, how do I find this out?

I think it was DancingMommy (thanks for all your rant!!!) that said to contact the organizers. Can that be done for an AM event too? Will they give me (a little amateur) that info? I'm thinking probably not.

Hi dreamalways! I'm not sure how I missed this earlier. As an amateur, you probably can't get the information you want directly. Most comp promoters keep that info secret, as a courtesy to the dance pros. Your best bet is to befriend a pro and get a look at the wholesaler package.

And are you talking about in-franchise comps, or publicly promoted comps that are attended by people at your franchise studio. If it's a within-franchise comp you're talking about, I doubt you'll ever get the info you want.

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 02:03 PM

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 02:36 PM

dreamalways

02-08-2004, 04:33 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I think I may try and find a amateur partner and attend some of the comps that are not sponsored by AMI.

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 04:38 PM

I'm looking into this myself, dreamalways. From what I understand, it's a lot less expensive to enter as an amateur, because you don't have to pay for the pro's time spent.

Here's an interesting side note: My current coach told me the other day, "I'd love to dance pro-am with you, but I really encourage you to attend the dance activities. Maybe you can find an amateur partner." That's how I knew he was a good and honest guy. :wink:

dreamalways

02-08-2004, 04:44 PM

Here's an interesting side note: My current coach told me the other day, "I'd love to dance pro-am with you, but I really encourage you to attend the dance activities. Maybe you can find an amateur partner." That's how I knew he was a good and honest guy. :wink:

I agree that your coach is being good and honest with you. I believe my situation is calling me to change directions and do things differently this coming year. Thanks for the feedback.

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 04:55 PM

Good luck dreamalways. Let us know how things go for you. 8) :)

dreamalways

02-08-2004, 05:04 PM

I will let you know, in the meantime I am going to do a LOT of reading here in dance-forums. So much good reading and helpful information I'm finding here.

Good luck to you too pygmalion. :D

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 05:05 PM

:D :D :D Thanks, and it's Jenn, to my friends. :wink: 8)

pygmalion

02-08-2004, 05:18 PM

SDsalsaguy

02-08-2004, 08:03 PM

Oh yeah, and one thing I forgot, dreamalways. The website is not complete, just yet, but once it gets up, I suggest you take a look at dancesportcomps.com They have a state by state listing of dance competitions, so you can plan your own agenda without being dependent on a dance pro to tell you what's coming to your area.
Also keep in mind that most independent comps have their own websites which do include pricing information... which makes it really easy to see for yourself exactly what expenses are entailed. :wink:

pygmalion

02-09-2004, 09:39 AM

True. Many do provide information, and some lock out lowly non-pros. Who knows why the promoters make these decisions.*shrug* Either way, I've found dancesportcomps.com very helpful because it usually has the web sites and contact information of the independent comps listed, and you can go get the information for yourself.

pygmalion

02-10-2004, 10:18 AM

Just to not get topics scrambled, I'm going to post more stuff on getting independent comp information in the "How do comps work" thread. Then we can leave this thread for people to discuss strictly franchise related stuff. Okay? :?

Genesius Redux

04-10-2004, 10:34 PM

A number of people have mentioned that they only recently started dancing and had questions about costs and options, so I thought I'd try to resurrect this thread!

Cheers,

Genesius

pygmalion

04-11-2004, 06:23 PM

This is a good, but controversial, thread, GR. People (myself included :oops: :lol: ) tend to be passionately on one side of the argument or the other.

twodance

04-11-2004, 09:57 PM

Okay. I just googled dance-o-rama. It's a two or three day, within-franchise, AMI, competition. I seriously doubt you're going to get any inside info from the organizers. The best you can hope for is to get the low down from members of a discussion forum like this one. I wish I could help, but I have no experience with AMI. Sorry.
Ok. The AMI studios are broken down into 6 regions. Each region can have it's own dance o rama. These are usually organized by the franchisse's. These cannot be more than 3 days long. The wholesale cost changes because of the venue. But an average of $500.00 -$900.00 p.p. is about right. Then each studio puts their markup on the package. This is to cover the cost of teachers package and loss of teaching time. Each studio can markup as much as they want since every studio is independantly owned and operated. Arthur Murray International does not own any studios. :wink: Each owner simply pays a fee to use the Arthur Murray name. The AMI superrama is put on by AMI. and is without a doubt one of the best run competitions I have attended ( and I usually attend around 15 a year). These tend to be almost a week long if you get the earky arrival package. Because the dance o rama's are a closed event ie. only open to AM students you will not be able to get a price list from AMI. But their is no reason you shouldn't be able to see the wholesale price from AMI that your franchissee has. This way you see if you are getting a fair price or paying too much. At my studio my students see the wholesale list on packages and entries. They know how much of a pro fee I charge and all of this is printed out for them for each comp. we attend.

twodance

04-11-2004, 10:15 PM

Now on the pro side of things. If you showed up at work and your boss told you that you had to go out of town for a week and you had to pay for your own airfare, hotel, food and misc. costs. Then told you he was not going to pay you since you would be out for the week. Would you go?When we attend a competition with our students our studio is closed. So we charge pro fee for being there with our students. Just like any job. But I have seen a lot of people abuse this fee to the extreme. Since the lessons we teach are regulated by the FTC there are rules. But on competition cost there are no rules hence the abuse. People spending 4-5 times more than they should be. Just a look at Dancesport comps.com, Dancesportsuperbowl.com to name a couple gives you the links to every competition in the U.S. Most of these have the price list on their web sites. If the pricew you are paying seems too much, do some research !!

pygmalion

04-12-2004, 05:51 PM

Yes, twodance!

I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that they're on a dance lesson/session/comp, but their teacher is working.

SDsalsaguy

04-12-2004, 09:04 PM

I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that they're on a dance lesson/session/comp, but their teacher is working.
This can be hard to keep track of when some instructors take a brand new studnet to an event, leave them in the hotel room, and go off to spend hours and hours socializing with their own friends. Certainly the vast majority of instructors do nothing of this sort, and certainly those few who do don't only come from the ranks of the franchises.

dancin_feet

04-12-2004, 09:15 PM

Now you folks have me thinking again. What's the value of these Dance-o-ramas? Are they respected in the competitive dance world? Or are they just an activity that is recognized within a particular franchise?

The franchise I was once affilaited with had periodic studio to studio "competitions," but they were more fun events than anything else. I didn't view them as actual competitive experience, at all.

Thoughts, anyone?

We have regular dance competition days, but you are competing against yourself because the scores are calculated according to how many lessons you've had. They are included in the price of private lessons so the day is actually free if you want to enter. I agree, they are more fun than anything else, but as I'm not really interested in competing at the moment, it's fine for me. For me all the elements are there, the opportunity to grade yourself, show off, control nerves, etc. Just not the overly competitive atmosphere.

There is also a yearly national competition, which they are in the midst of trying to get me to attend. As you have to pay your own way, there is no way I can justify $700 - $800 to go and maybe get a trophy out of it. Pretty expensive trophy!!! :shock: :wink: In the greater scheme of things, it really means nothing.

SDsalsaguy

04-12-2004, 09:44 PM

dancin_feet

04-12-2004, 09:57 PM

There is also a yearly national competition, which they are in the midst of trying to get me to attend. As you have to pay your own way, there is no way I can justify $700 - $800 to go and maybe get a trophy out of it. Pretty expensive trophy!!! :shock: :wink: In the greater scheme of things, it really means nothing.
You're right dancin_feet, that would be one mighty expensive trophy! :shock:

I, however, will be happy to sell you one for the bargain price of only $350! :D

Even that's a bit much for me at the moment, I'm afraid, but thanks for the offer! :wink: I may go next year, hopefully I'll be a bit more financial then.

SDsalsaguy

04-12-2004, 10:36 PM

dancin_feet

04-12-2004, 10:57 PM

OK, just for you I'll make the special, only-if you-sign-up-today, offer of a trophy for the unherad of price of only $200!!!! :shock: :shock: :D :D

Foil and chocolate buddy, foil and chocolate!! :D :D

SDsalsaguy

04-12-2004, 11:25 PM

Foil and chocolate buddy, foil and chocolate!! :D :D
Sorry d_f, but my chocolate covered coffee beans have long been promised to anothe DFite... :lol:

SDsalsaguy

04-15-2004, 07:25 PM

I just wanted to point out this new thread about substitute teachers (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3210) as it mentions Franchises and practices several times.

dragon3085

04-15-2004, 08:16 PM

I've been with AM for 4 years now and so long as my instructor stays I will stay as well so long as I can afford it. I will say this, 1. Our studio does not seem typical of other AM studios, and 2. there is a difference between the teaching and the managment staff. The managment should get on their knees and kiss the feet of the instructor because they are the only reason we stay.

samba ajr

04-16-2004, 12:34 AM

I'm planning on going to the New York City DanceArama next month. Anyone else?

I was planning on going to an independent comp next weekend, but as other students dropped out, my price went up (I would have been the only one there with my pro). I decided to skip that and put the money into DanceArama. (I'm still going to go [to Stardust] for dinner and the show, and take my Mom for her Mother's Day gift! And my pro will still be joining us--pretty good deal!)

Anyway--I did look at the website for the independent comp. The dance entries were about $30-35 each. OK. My pro quoted me $50 each. I nodded my head and didn't let on. I do understand that he needs to be compensated for his time. I do believe that if I pressed the issue, he'd actually lower my price. In fact, since I'm the one at the studio who goes to nearly every event, he tried to reduce my costs for the independent comp.

I guess i need to get myself an amateur partner so we can go to the "lower priced" comps! Any takers? :wink:

Kitty

04-16-2004, 03:17 AM

I guess i need to get myself an amateur partner so we can go to the "lower priced" comps! Any takers? :wink:

And also you'd be more in charge of your own dancing and can put together you own cute routines and can practice for free, lessons are half price (the other half is paid by your partner)...

SDsalsaguy

04-24-2004, 02:43 PM

Here's a new, related thread from Larinda that may be of interest. Her actual question had to do with closed vs. open studio systems, but a lot of comments have been made regarding franchises in this context :arrow: independant or employeed, which is more honest (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3333)

LatinDancer006

09-28-2006, 02:51 PM

Welcome to the forums Taita! (And, FYI, I did enjoy your post :D)

On the issue of value, you also point out the valuable point (sorry, couldn’t help myself) that price is not synonymous with value. Aside from the fact that a higher quality lesson will get you further faster, there are some things you will never get—no matter how much time and money you invest—from even an infinite number of lower quality lessons. As such, the quality of the lesson needs to be factored in as much as the price and, despite larger social pressures to the contrary, price should not be conflated with value.

:confused: Price does not equal/conflated to value? Well, okay maybe with a product like jewlery. I can understand that owners attach sentimental values and emotions with a piece of jewlery that might make it more valuable to them than the fair market price. But with service, price is a gauge of the value(quality) of the service offered. So, I don't know where you're going with this. Yes most of the independents don't offer group classes and socials with their program; you'd have to pay for that separately. You're not comparing apples with apples here. To do that, you have to total the cost of a private lesson and a group class and a social which still is slightly less than the price of one lesson at a franchise.