Franchise Experiences

[SDsalsaguy]

I was just at the Arthur Murray Unique Dance-O-Rama in Costa Mesa yesterday, and I am curious about anyone’s experiences with and feelings about the ballroom franchises.

Personally I started at an Arthur Murray school but, unfortunately, the owner of that studio is one of the slimiest people I have ever met. It actually took a couple of years after I had left that studio before I would even set foot in another Arthur Murray studio. I did, however, eventually visit a couple of other Arthur Murray schools and was pleasantly surprised and impressed.

This weekend’s competition, however, was my first time seeing a franchise competition and I am still sorting out my impressions. There were definitely some elements that impressed me. The overall enthusiasm and support in the ballroom struck me as on par with what I’ve come to expect from the college circuit, but is almost entirely lacking at any other event. One thing that was particularly nice about this, aside from the general camaraderie, was the joy in dancing—both in doing it and watching it—something that seems sadly lacking in other events. Also, even though franchise events are expensive, I have to say that the decorations, catering, etc., were all really top notch—definitely at a scale that I have never seen at any independent event.

On the flipside, however, and something new to me, were the “Future Professional Champions” events. These are professional two-dance events that, to the best of my knowledge, are for instructors during their first two years (does anyone know if I got this right?). I have to say I found these events a bit shocking…someone who only competes in a two-dance event is an instructor? Of course there is the larger issue that good dancing and good instruction are not synonymous, but I think that is a different issue…

Anyway, I’m curious about anyone else’s experiences with and impressions of the franchises and franchise events…

[MissAlyssa]

Weeeell..I am biased lol. Fred Astaire all the way baby :] I'm not sure what the whole two dance instructor dancing was all about but I have to say that you hit the pros of the franchise pretty much on the head. I feel like there is a ton of support and excitement within a franchise. The studio forms a tight bond and the enthusiasm that the "employees" build definetly wears off on the students. Oh yea, and the catering and decorations are awesome :]

[msc]

I've never had a lesson, either group or private, from a major franchise studio. I started out at a start-up studio, fairly big place, then migrated to take lessons from the major ballroom studios in the area. I stayed at the start-up for quite a while, as the owner gave me some serious discounts on privates, since I "helped train his instructors." What can I say, they made for good practice partners.

I actually had three separate private instructors at one point ... one from the start-up, one from an established studio, and argentine tango ... and the tango instructor was far and away the best. The fact that she had won her country's modern (standard) championship at an early age probably helped a bit.

Now I'm soon to have a new instructor, definitely the best I've ever had, both in ability and teaching skills, so I'll have to gear it up. I'm just hopeful that I won't have to go all the way back to the beginning again ...

[MissAlyssa]

hehe, I do a lot of my training on students [they get free/discounted lessons]. it helps me and the student out. :)

[Black Sheep]

Chain studios have a definite advantage over 'most' independent studios because the advertising is shared by several franchises, and the cost of a franchise is only affordable for those who can put forth additional investment to embellish the studio in every way.
I worked for the Veloz & Yolanda studios in 1949; I joined the same branch as Jean Phelps only a month after she went through their teacher's training course of six weeks, six hours a day, six days a week. Many independent studio owners are former chain studio trained, as I was. However, There are too many untrained teachers running lose, so a student has to be judicious about picking a teacher from a dance hall just because they dance well. The best way to judge any teacher's ability is by the students they turn out.
Fred Astaire and Veloz & Yolanda studios in the 1950's did turn out more stylized graceful dancers then the Arthur Murray Studios in L.A. I haven't seen an Arthur Murray contests on TV for a few years, but when I did view them, I had difficulty identifying the differences in their styling for individual ballroom dances. If it wasn't for the music or the costumes all their moves and executions and styling were so similar that the individual dances lost much of their unique character and mood.
Great thread, Salsaguy!

[SDsalsaguy]

MissAlyssa, I do have to say that the enthusiasm was, indeed, great!

At the same time though, many—if not the majority—of the “instructors” would have been wiped off the floor by a large percentage of the open level amateurs. So, for those students who enjoy the atmosphere and camaraderie provided within the franchise setting, I think they’re getting just what they want. For students who are trying to develop a certain quality of movement though, I think they need to be very careful within the franchise system (which is not, of course, to say that any such thing is in any way guaranteed in independent studios either).

FYI, this same prompt has generated some responses you may be interested in over in my yahoo group, www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Ballroom_Life/.

Very nice post, SD, I always was shown and held that if you're looking to take lessons in any form of dance that the best learning comes from a variety of teachers and methods of teaching.

-FF

[Panthra]

Oooh anthropology. My future major. :D

My experience with the world of dance franchises has been limited and I plan to keep it that way. When it comes to ballroom things seem to be split down the middle. You've got the social and competitve and most of the time the two just don't seem to overlap.

Being more interested in the competitive aspect I find that anyone I want to take lessons with is affiliated with an independent studio. The chains are more focused on the everday social dancer and from what I've seen exclusively teach American style. I've read the franchises try to keep people from going beyond their network, hence one motive for exclusive competitions.

I'm dancing at a "former" Arthur Murray's (only in name it seems, except for that one teacher who makes it worth it) and paying up front for 10 privates and 10 groups set me on edge. All my other lesson programs were payed in installments. I don't know if that's significant or not, but it was another difference I noticed.

Yeah... so those are my observations, who knows though.

[SDsalsaguy]

Oooh anthropology. My future major. :D

Really? What branch of anthropology are you interested in? FYI, feel free to be in touch if I can ever help out!

—Jonathan

[MissAlyssa]

Panthra,
I'm not quite sure why paying up front "pissed you off" but from an instructor's standpoint I'd like to share why I feel paying up front is a positive thing. Think of it this way, you have a lesson at 5 o'clock and you show up at 4:55 so you have time to put on your shoes etc before your lesson. At 5 o'clock I walk up and let you know that you have no more lessons paid for at the moment. Instead of starting a lesson on time you have to go and pay for a few more lessons, taking 10 minutes out of a lesson (on your time) that would otherwise have been taken care of. Furthermore, the higher the program you are enrolled in, the more fun and exciting things we can teach you during your lessons. Let me tell you, I'd rather be teaching you style, technique, or cool patterns during your lesson rather than watch you do the rumba box step for 30 minutes and for excitement throwing in an UA turn lol :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Panthra,
I'm not quite sure why paying up front "pissed you off" but from an instructor's standpoint I'd like to share why I feel paying up front is a positive thing. Think of it this way, you have a lesson at 5 o'clock and you show up at 4:55 so you have time to put on your shoes etc before your lesson. At 5 o'clock I walk up and let you know that you have no more lessons paid for at the moment. Instead of starting a lesson on time you have to go and pay for a few more lessons, taking 10 minutes out of a lesson (on your time) that would otherwise have been taken care of. Furthermore, the higher the program you are enrolled in, the more fun and exciting things we can teach you during your lessons. Let me tell you, I'd rather be teaching you style, technique, or cool patterns during your lesson rather than watch you do the rumba box step for 30 minutes and for excitement throwing in an UA turn lol :D

MissAlyssa, I think the point is that if the product is really of value, it will sell itself, i.e. the student will sign up for lessons of their own initiative, not be required to make an up front commitment. Every top instructor I have seen in the U.S. and Europe receives payment on the completion of the lesson without issue…

Part of the discrepancy may also be that you are viewing this only as a franchise insider…in most independent schools there is no such thing as “you haven’t purchased that yet.” I’m not entirely sure why, but it seems that the business model that the franchises are based on quantify and qualify the value of their program from a choreographic standpoint. Dance is a skill and, as such, even a rumba box can be taught at levels that only the vast minority of franchise instructors (albeit many independent instructors as well) would be able to match…

[Taita]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post. I hope you enjoy it. A bit about myself...
I currently take lessons at both independent and a franchise studio. I have taken lessons from several schools in this franchise for years. Let me see if I can share some of experience with them...

I would describe my experience as very positive. The ones I go to do not exclusively teach just the American style, but also offer an international syllabus (or is it syllabi for plural...). While I do see a tendency to try and 'sell' newcomers I don't see the same tendency at many independent studios too. I have also found that it's easy to characterize an entire franchise based on the experience had at a single school. I have visited many schools from the same franchise and found them to be pretty much self-owned and managed. Some are well run operations where a pleasant experience is assured and morale is high with both the staff and the students. Others are badly mismanaged where the staff feels little better than slaves and the atmosphere seems a bit too workmanlike. As each studio is independently owned and managed, I have never had difficulty negotiating a fair rates for my lessons. In terms of instruction.... I tend to believe it all comes down to two things: the teacher and the student. Sometimes I find people paying outrageous sums of money to learn from barely qualified teachers. Sometimes I find people who pay top dollar to work with the same teachers I work with and never really learn anything. When I objectively look at those situations, it always strikes me that the student has a role and responsibility in this too that is not often met. When I go for my lessons, I am blessed to be able to learn from some of the world's best dancers and I prepare by practicing beforehand, being warmed up, and paying close attention. All this at a price that is comparable to what I would find at the independent studios I also take lessons at.

For me, lessons are not cheap, but time is even more expensive. One outstanding, expensive lesson every couple of weeks, is often worth more than mediocre, cheap lessons taken everyday. I have always found quality of instruction to be paramount. I have also found that it is possible to find that instruction at franchise studios. Franchise studios do play an important role and many do a good job of providing value to it's customers. One should definitely not shy away from franchises when looking for instruction. However, I have seen a few that seem a bit.... shall we say, mismanaged.... and I can see how easily one can form an impression of an entire franchise based on an experience at a single school. It is far more useful to judge each situation on it's own merits and make decisions based on what is best for you.

[SDsalsaguy]

Welcome to the forums Taita! (And, FYI, I did enjoy your post :D)

You bring up an excellent point regarding student responsibilities as well. Walking in for a lesson “just on time” and/or not having practiced since the last lesson are just some of the things that some students do that undermine the value of their lessons.

On the issue of value, you also point out the valuable point (sorry, couldn’t help myself) that price is not synonymous with value. Aside from the fact that a higher quality lesson will get you further faster, there are some things you will never get—no matter how much time and money you invest—from even an infinite number of lower quality lessons. As such, the quality of the lesson needs to be factored in as much as the price and, despite larger social pressures to the contrary, price should not be conflated with value.

Two factors relevant to this value factoring that have been brought up in the Ballroom Life (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ballroom_Life/) yahoo group are (1) “extras,” and (2) portability. For the price of lessons the franchises include group classes and practice parties so, if you utilize these services, then a higher priced lesson can, indeed, be of greater value (assuming, of course, comparable quality of teaching). This phenomena, in turn, tends to function as an element of diminishing returns since most studios do not have group classes/events that are geared towards higher and higher level dancers. (Again, the specifics of any given establishment could vary, but as a rule of thumb, this is, indeed, the case.) As far as portability, for those who can and do make use of such, there is something to be said for the franchises in that one can join in group classes and parties, and even take an exchange private lesson, throughout the system at no additional cost.

Returning to Taita’s point, however, I think that prioritizing one’s objectives is one place where students need to be careful. If social dance is what is wanted, then franchises are—by and large—among the very best choices. For more quality based dancing then it becomes essential to evaluate the individual establishments available. While there certainly are quality dancers and instructors available within the franchise systems, I watched multiple franchise professionals competing last weekend who would be easily beaten in novice level amateur events.

[Black Sheep]

Taita,
I taught at a Veloz and Yolanda franchise studio and have had several teachers and franchise owners as friends and I categorically agree with your description of the 'good, the bad and the ugly' of both Independents and Franchise Chain studios. Readers would be wise to follow your sage advice.
Black Sheep

[luvandliv2dance]

Hi, I was at the Costa Mesa event also and found your post very interesting. :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi, I was at the Costa Mesa event also and found your post very interesting. :D

Welcome to the forums luvandliv2dance! (I love the ID by the way!)

I'm glad you found my post interesting. If I may ask, however, what was your impression of the event and in what capacity were you there? Please do feel free to disagree with anything I have said, as I am well aware that my frame of reference and perspective is only that—mine. I started this thread due to a genuine interested in other people’s perceptions and opinions on the matter.

Again, welcome to the forums!

—Jonathan

[Taita]

Thank you for the welcome everyone!

SD..... I'm glad you enjoyed my post. If you are referring to the same franchise I'm thinking of, then I have to say that your experience with them is similar to my experience with them. In my area, this chain only teaches from their own American Style syllabus and subsequently, their focus is purely social. I agree with your point on 'extras' as their rates are outrageously higher than anyone else's. This is justified by the inclusion of extras like group classes which tend to be of questionable value as you advance. Tell me, was their competition competitive? Last time I checked, their competition was focused on pro-am and the students never actually competed against each other as each heat was essentially a 'proficiency' where every student was judged individually (I have never heard of anyone scoring lower than a 95/100 -- even the lady who tripped and fell). In addition to the above, I would daresay I too know many amateurs who were more fundamentally sound in their dance technique than any of the professionals I have seen from there (Note: I will say a friend of mine was once a competitive partner to a teacher at another studio from that franchise and they always did well in professional competition. This same couple was once allowed to compete at one of their franchise competitions. To the organizer's dismay, they proceeded to totally embarrass every other 'professional' couple by running away with the win. LOL, even the photos that were taken show judges unable to stop watching them! Needless to say, they were not invited back). In my opinion, this particular franchise offers the worst value from what I've seen so far. They do offer a good social outlet, that does appear a bit inbred as I generally do not see their students at other social dance events except when they go as a group. However, I do enjoy their company and occassionally crash their parties(they don't dance as well, but.... there are some cute girls in that place! :wink: ).

BlackSheep.... Thank you for your insight, I'm glad to get verification from someone on the 'inside'. Thanks again for your compliment, I know many who would hesitate to call my opinions 'sage advice'! :P

[Panthra]

Panthra,
I'm not quite sure why paying up front "pissed you off"

MissAlyssa, please don't put words in my mouth. In rereading my post I said it "put me on edge" and by this I hardly meant pissed off. I meant extremely nervous. I don't know about you, but putting $1,000 down up front is a big deal for me considering the amount of money. I want to be sure that the studio will uphold their end of the bargain. I've always paid in installments which I find to make a lot more sense for both the teacher and I.

Say my current instructor left the studio and I still had 2 or 3 lessons. The only reason I take lessons there is for him, he is geared toward competition and is by far the best dancer there. I am literally better than all the other teachers there simply because my focus is competitve and theirs is social. I highly doubt the studio is going to give me the money back for those left over lessons, so where does that leave me? Now *that* would piss me off. :p

I've never had to pay up front, my instructors have always taken care of administrative stuff after the lesson, whether it has been payed for or not.

SD - Cultural anthropology here. :D You? And I just got a book you might be interested in written by an anthropologist and classically trained dancer called Paper Tangos. She studies the whole culture of the tango, it sounds really fascinating. (I forgot the author and I don't have the book in front of me.)

Taita, great posts, I really enjoyed reading them!

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi Taita….

If you are referring to the same franchise I'm thinking of
:?: Ummm, sorry, maybe I’m just being obtuse at the moment, but I’m unclear about this…both the event I started this thread in reference to and my own personal studio experience are, I had thought, noted as being in reference to Arthur Murray. Maybe the lack of clarity comes from my labeling the thread “Franchise Experiences”?

Anyway, to respond to your question, yes, there actually was competition, i.e., multiple people at the same levels who actually were marked relative to each other. Now certainly there were any number of uncontested entries, but that is also true of the vast majority of independent events as well these days. As an aside, I am not sure if my perception of this is accurate but, at least at first blush, it seems to me that I see more FADS students competing at independent (i.e. NDCA) competitions then I do AMI students. Anyone else have an impression on this? (By the way, I loved your story about your friend and his partner.)

Panthra…given your post I would say that you have good reason to be nervous. Unless I am mistaken, franchise contracts actually include (in the proverbial “small print”) a clause specifying that the contract is with the franchise and not with a particular instructor...and that other instructors can be assigned to a given contract.

As for the academic thing, I’m actually doing my Ph.D. in psychological anthropology—a specialized sub-filed within sociocultural anthropology that tends to focus on the permeable border between culture and personality. As for the book you mention, its written by Julie Taylor and was first published in 1998, by Duke University Press.

luvandliv2dance…looking forward to any comments you may care to offer, especially as someone who was at the event which originally prompted this thread.

—Jonathan

[Taita]

Hi Jonathan

Ummm, sorry, maybe I’m just being obtuse at the moment, but I’m unclear about this…both the event I started this thread in reference to and my own personal studio experience are, I had thought, noted as being in reference to Arthur Murray. Maybe the lack of clarity comes from my labeling the thread “Franchise Experiences”?

My mistake, I simply did not read your post carefully enough. I also did not wish to offend anyone by naming names. Ironically, AMI is the franchise I was thinking about. It is good to know AMI students do have the opportunity to compete against one another. As far as independent competitions, it does seem to me that I see more FADS students competing at these things than AMI students. As a matter of fact, I don't think I have ever seen an AMI student competing at an independent venue! Can anyone verify this? As far as amateur couples, I do tend to notice the vast majority of them train at independent studios. At first glance, this would suggest that independent studios tend to encourage amateur competition much more than franchises. (BTW, to put icing on the story, my friend was a teacher at an FADS at the time. The AMI organizers knew this. I'm sure they loved giving their first place award to him :wink: ).

Panthra,

Thank you for sharing your experiences, I am glad that you are enjoying my posts. Having years of experience dealing with franchises, you may want to check the fine print on the lesson contract. As far as I know, a studio must refund any unpaid lessons if the student requests it. no questions asked. I have also known of instances where independent studios have honored lesson contracts from other studios (what happens here is one studio will simply purchase the contract from another studio). Also, do not be afraid to make a good business decision for yourself, even if you are afraid it may offend someone. I have in the past refused to take lessons from a teacher who I felt wasn't worth the price of the lessons. Personally, I liked this particular coach, but I didn't feel her teaching style would help me learn as much from her. By word and by action, I made it clear that my decision to not take lessons with her was a business decision, not a personal one. My decision was respected and no animosity ever came of it. In fact, I believe it lead to more respectful dealings from this studio and a higher level of instruction once they realized that I am not afraid of going elsewhere. Also, be clear on your goals. Is your goal to learn from your current instructor? or to become a better dancer? Is it possible that you are needlessly trapping yourself? You may find that you have more options than you believe are available.

P.S. I took the time to check out your blog. Great pictures!

P.P.S. Upon further examination of your blog, it appears that we share a coach! :o

[SDsalsaguy]

As far as I know, a studio must refund any unpaid lessons if the student requests it. no questions asked.
To the best of my knowledge there is no over-arching requirement to this effect but, rather, that the pertinent regulations and laws vary from state to state. Here is some information provided by the Fereral Trade Commission regarding dance studios back in '92:

Facts for Consumers from the Federal Trade Commission
Dance Studios -- November 1992

Although dance lessons may offer opportunities for fun, entertainment, and companionship, they also may be more expensive than planned, especially if you do not know how to protect yourself against some dance studio sales practices. For example, beware of:
· Signing long-term contracts and prepaying thousands of dollars for dance lessons or clubs that you may be unable to complete or cancel;
· Signing additional contracts before the current one expires;
· Making large prepayments to studios that may be unable to give refunds should they suddenly close or go bankrupt.

In an effort to make consumers aware of certain sales practices used by some dance studios, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has prepared this brochure. It also suggests ways in which you can protect yourself.

Sales Techniques:

If you are thinking about or are already taking dance lessons, you should understand the sales techniques that some dance studios may use to persuade you to take lessons, or to take additional lessons.

Relay Salesmanship:
Some studio instructors use the technique of relay salesmanship (consecutive sales talks by more than one representative in a single day) to try to persuade students to buy lessons or buy more lessons. This tactic may put you under heavy pressure to sign a contract, encouraging you to buy lessons you may later realize you do not want or cannot afford.

Overlapping Contracts:
Some studio instructors try to convince their students during lesson time to sign additional contracts before completing the current lessons. In some instances, you may unwittingly be buying additional lessons that extend beyond your interest, your physical fitness, or even your life expectancy.

High-pressure Sales:
Some studio instructors, using high-pressure sales tactics, exploit student emotions or personal vulnerabilities to oversell lessons. Sometimes, when students refuse to buy additional prepaid lessons, instructors will neglect them in classes, embarrass them in public, or transfer them to a less skilled instructor.

Precautions:

Awareness about the possible use of these sales techniques can help you avoid potential problems. In addition, you may avoid some potential problems if you comparison shop for dance lessons.

Finally, before signing or renewing a contract for dance lessons, consider taking the following measures.

Pay in advance for only a certain number of lessons to see if you like them. You may get a discount if you make a large prepayment on a long-term contract, but it will have little value if later you are unable to take the classes, you want to cancel them, or the studio closes before your lessons are completed. At this time, only a few states require studios to post bonds to protect consumers' prepayments.

Insist that the following items are clearly stated in writing:
· any oral promises;
· the cost per hour of private and group lessons;
· your cancellation and refund rights; (These are important in case you change your mind about lessons, move, or become ill.)
· any prepayment protections, if required by state law.

You can ask about these important items when you comparison shop.

Do not sign a contract immediately, especially if you have concerns about the stability of the studio or are asked to prepay a large amount of money for a lifetime membership, an exclusive club membership, or dance cruise offer. Take time to think about the matter and talk it over with a friend, a family member, or an attorney. Even if your contract offers you a refund or cancellation option, you may be unable to get your money back if the studio closes or its refund check bounces. Prepay only as much as you can afford to lose if the studio closes.

As an additional precaution, you might wish to contact your local or state consumer protection office to learn what rights you may have under local or state law with regard to maximum costs for contracts, cancellation and refund rights, studio bonding requirements, and a "cooling off" period, which may give you a few days to reconsider your decision after you sign your contract. Also, by contacting your local Better Business Bureau office, you may be able to learn if there are any current complaints registered against the dance studio you are considering.

Complaints:

If you have a problem with a dance studio and cannot resolve it, send a letter describing your complaint to your local or state consumer protection agency and your local Better Business Bureau. (Check your phone directory for addresses.) Also, send a copy of your letter to: Correspondence Branch, Federal Trade Commission, Washington, D.C. 20580. Although the FTC generally cannot intervene in individual disputes, the information you provide may indicate a pattern of possible law violations requiring action by the Commission.

[DanceMentor]

I know the state of Florida has some pretty strict regulations regarding dance studios.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone kept a record of studios that have been featured on television because of their unethical practices?

I once tried to help a lady at a certain franchise location. She pretty much spent $60,000 in one year. Her husband had taken care of the finances, and when he passed away, she was pretty clueless. They had her taking two lessons per day and each lesson was taught by 2 teaches, so she was paying for 4 lessons per day. There were times when they would raise their voice and semi-jokingly, semi-threateningly tell her she had better give them more money if she knew what was good for her. She was lonely and sad and the dance lessons were the drug. Now she is living on Social Security and has nearly nothing left.

There ARE studios like this out there. Usually, it's the elderly that are at the greatest risk.

[DanceMentor]

Facts for Consumers from the Federal Trade Commission
Dance Studios -- November 1992


Good find, SDsalsaguy! :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Hmmm, apparently California, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Virginia, Washington and Wisconsin regulate the offer and sale of franchises....anyone know the nature of these regulations?

[SDsalsaguy]

Here's some background information on AMI as provided by their website.

HISTORY

As America's second oldest franchise oganization, Arthur Murray International, Inc. is known around the world as a prominent entertainment company with franchises located throughout the United states, Canada and Puerto Rico, Europe, the Middle-East, Japan, South Africa and Australia. With the beginning of a new millennium, social dancing is again a significant part of popular culture for all generations. Today the Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studios continue a tradition of more than 88 years in teaching the world to dance. The history of the Arthur Murray Franchised Dance studios began in 1912 with a man named Arthur Murray, an American symbol of entrepreneurial success and social dancing. Murray was among the first to use advertising techniques considered cutting edge at the time. His concept of selling dance lessons by mail, one step at a time, took the use of direct mail to a new level.

Murray's creative use of print advertising attracted national attention as did his business acumen. In March of 1920, using students from Georgia Tech, Murray arranged to have music transmitted to a group of his dance students a few miles away. This was the world's first radio broadcast of live dance music for dancing. Prior to World War II, Arthur Murray teachers were a regular part of every first-class steamship cruise and during the Thirties, the studios introduced such dances to the public as the "Lambeth Walk" and "The Big Apple." In fact it was "The Big Apple" that launched Mr. Murray's one studio into the largest chain of dance studios in the world today. In 1938 the first official opening of a franchised dance school occurred in Minneapolis, Minnesota. In 1942 singer Betty Hutton with the Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra recorded the big hit song "Arthur Murray Taught Me Dancing In A Hurry" for the movie "The Fleet's In" and by 1946 there were 72 Arthur Murray Dance Studios across America.

Arthur Murray was the first to realize the growing popularity of the Latin dances in America during the 1950's. Many conventions were held in Cuba during that time to give Arthur Murray dance trainers first-hand knowledge of the hot new Latin styles and moves that were in vogue and becoming popular. In July 1950, Mr. Murray purchased five fifteen-minute television spots on CBS and persuaded his wife Kathryn to do the teaching. Before the third show, Arthur bought a half-hour summer series on ABC. The show was called the "Arthur Murray Dance Party." By May 1952, the Murray's had televised almost 100 programs. Their TV ratings climbed and in the summer of 1952 they signed with their first sponsor, General Foods. Millions of viewers all over the United States fell in love with the show and flocked to the Arthur Murray Studios throughout the country. This highly popular show ran for twelve years on national television.

When Arthur and Kathryn Murray retired in 1964, a group of franchisees purchased the company and brought a fresh new spirit and leadership to it. Under its new leadership, the Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studios has kept pace with the rapidly changing "youth culture" and continues today to flourish as the world's largest dance instruction organization. Arthur Murray dance teachers can be found not only in the studios, but on the movie sets in Hollywood; backstage on Broadway; and partnering with major entertainers to promote the music that the world dances to. Whenever a movie involves dance, it's a good bet that AMI has been involved in some way, shape or form. Such movies as Dirty Dancing, Dirty Dancing II, Dance With Me, Beautician And The Beast, Flash Dance, An American President, True Lies, Saturday Night Fever and Scent Of A Woman are some of the films which have used Arthur Murray instructors to either teach a dance to the stars and/or dance in the film.

The Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studio's name appears regularly in major national magazines that include Vogue, Martha Stuart Wedding, Smithsonian, Sports Illustrated, Woman's Day and more. Wherever advertisers want to reach consumers with a message of romance, intimacy or just plain fun, you'll see dancing, from the Gap' now famous Khaki Swing commercials to dancing M&M's and gas pumps. Arthur Murray International's commitment to dance goes even further, with senior management heavily involved in the world of professional and amateur competitive dance, known as DanceSport. Many of Arthur Murray's officials have contributed to bringing competitive ballroom to the forefront as an Olympic Sport.

All Arthur Murray franchised Dance Studios are independently owned and operated by individuals who started as dance instructors and worked their way up to the executive level. By the time they are qualified to purchase a franchise, they have experienced every phase of studio operations, from teaching and supervising to marketing and managing. It is possible for an ambitious person to advance to a top executive job and become eligible to be a franchisee within just a few years. Building from within has kept the studio system strong, with franchisees that are committed to the Spirit of Excellence which is the hallmark of the entire Arthur Murray system. Currently there are approximately 180 Arthur Murray Franchised Dance Studios worldwide.

AMI also has this to say in its FAQ section:
How qualified will my instructor be?
All of our dance experts must complete a most arduous training regimen. They are experienced on the dance floor and knowledgable in all techniques to help you master today's popular dances. Rest assured the teachers selected for you are the best in the business.

[Taita]

Thanks for the info Jonathan,

It's good to know the official FTC rules on this matter. As always, one should not be afraid to make sound business decisions for yourself. Dancing is supposed to be fun. I'd hate to see someone lose their love of dance because of a poor business decision. The AMI background is useful too. Did you take lessons at an AMI? What brought you to the aforementioned AMI event? As far as franchise restrictions, I'm not aware of the specifics of these states. However, it is my understanding (just from chatting with a manager of an FADS) that there is a limit to how many lessons in advance they are allowed to sell someone. I'm not sure if this is a company rule or a state regulation. Anybody know for sure?

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi Taita…as per my original post in this thread I did, in fact, start at an AMI studio. I was actually looking for a place to learn salsa and, at that time, didn’t know any better. :(

As far as the aforementioned AMI event, I was there for my research. I’m wrapping up my primary fieldwork phase this fall and realized that, although I’d visited several franchise studios (including both AMI and FADS), I hadn’t been to a franchise event yet so had wanted to make sure and include that as well.

[DanceMentor]

Taita,

I'm pretty sure this varies by state. I know Florida, for example, has stricter regulations than other states. I'll try to remember to ask a studio owner (I talk them every day) to see what they have to say.

[SDsalsaguy]

I'm pretty sure this varies by state. I know Florida, for example, has stricter regulations than other states.

Yes, this came about as a result of legal actions having been pursued against a number of studios that took particularly reprehensible advantage of any number of elderly students.

[Spitfire]

I've never been to a Fred Astaire and once took a group class from Arthur Murrays; both of which are no longer in town.

Back when I was first learning to dance over 20 years ago one of the other students told me that they had gone to one of the two I don't recall which, but when there was a dance they could only use what they were taught at that studio and not anything learned outside of it. :o

[DanceMentor]

I spoke with a FADS state director and he told me there is a federal law capping contracts at $7500. He told me that people still sell more than this, especially in Florida.

[MissAlyssa]

Panthra,
I'm not quite sure why paying up front "pissed you off"

MissAlyssa, please don't put words in my mouth. In rereading my post I said it "put me on edge" and by this I hardly meant pissed off. I meant extremely nervous. I don't know about you, but putting $1,000 down up front is a big deal for me considering the amount of money. I want to be sure that the studio will uphold their end of the bargain. I've always paid in installments which I find to make a lot more sense for both the teacher and I.

Say my current instructor left the studio and I still had 2 or 3 lessons. The only reason I take lessons there is for him, he is geared toward competition and is by far the best dancer there. I am literally better than all the other teachers there simply because my focus is competitve and theirs is social. I highly doubt the studio is going to give me the money back for those left over lessons, so where does that leave me? Now *that* would piss me off. :p

I've never had to pay up front, my instructors have always taken care of administrative stuff after the lesson, whether it has been payed for or not.


Panthra,
Clearly a missunderstanding. You can only get SO much out of what someone types and frankly, I missinterpreted your statement.

[DanceMentor]

In support of the programs that franchises sell, I will say that programs can really help a student to stay committed. Also, many studios offer payment plans. Even though you commit to a certain amount of money, you are making payments, and it's pretty easy to get out of the contract if the services have not been rendered.

[SDsalsaguy]

it's pretty easy to get out of the contract if the services have not been rendered. This is entirely dependent upon the franchisee! Some actually have ethical business practices and understand that, in the long run, good business involves customer satisfaction even of a student who wants to leave. I, myself, however, was given a very hard time in this regard and was not allowed such an out…and I know of several others with like experiences!

Many (most?) franchisees do, of course, understand this and conduct themselves accordingly. And, as some of the posts in this thread have pointed out, the value of the franchise programs can be quite good when group classes and parties are taken into consideration—especially earlier on in one’s dancing “career.” Also, and I really do want to stress this, the enthusiasm and camaraderie that I have seen at studio events is unmatched by any USABDA or NDCA event (although I would put the college circuit in the same boat).

The problem is that franchisees (not that they are unique in this regard) often want it both ways—they want the name recognition of their franchise without the concomitant “used-car-sales” smarminess also being associated with them as the results of an unscrupulous minority. One key element then is that the franchises need to do a better job of self-policing such that the few do not continue to discredit the reputations of the ethical majority. The problem, however, remains apparent in the Teflon-esque claim of “it depends on the franchisee” when still claiming only the benefits of franchise systems.

Note, for instance, this comment:
I spoke with a FADS state director and he told me there is a federal law capping contracts at $7500. He told me that people still sell more than this, especially in Florida. Breaches of federal regulations are known, yet the problem remains!

[SDsalsaguy]

You can only get SO much out of what someone types and frankly, I missinterpreted your statement.
A good point for us all to remember MissAlyssa! Thanks for the reminder! Also nice to "see" you again :D

[MissAlyssa]

You can only get SO much out of what someone types and frankly, I missinterpreted your statement.
A good point for us all to remember MissAlyssa! Thanks for the reminder! Also nice to "see" you again :D

<3 Hi SD, nice to "see" you again also! <3 :P

[B. Smith]

In the registration process it says that "slanderous" claims would be a bad thing, yet I notice that several posters say "the chain" or "the franchise." Why not spit it out? Say it out loud or zip it. This forum/thread seems to be leaning towards a few other s from other sites. Ones that anonomously ripped AMI and FADS without recourse. Yes, I am FADS. Yes, I am offended by anonomous mud slinging.
I do agree that some franchisees are better business people than others, some are better dancers than others. However, we do have to follow legal guidelines that independents do not. Including sales limits and the "terrible" contracts. So many independents brag about no contracts. Big deal, we have to use them. I would use them even if I did not have a franchise. They make everything clear. The students know what they're getting from beginning to end. They also end the " you're my favorite student" discount. This one pays "x" and that one pays"2x." Everyone can compare and see they are all being treated well.
Last thought: treat the franchises with a bit of respect. We have helped spread the ballroom bug for over 50 years. Many of the top competitors would not be where they are had they not started with AMI or FADS. And we will be here a long, long time.
B.

[B. Smith]

Sorry for the typos and misspellings.
B.

[DanceMentor]

Hi B. Smith,

I'm glad you've joined the discussion, keeping this from becoming one-sided. You make some great points. Let me put some of them into my own words:
1. Franchises have been a major force in bringing ballroom dancing to the masses.
2. A contract also makes certain promises to the student to help keep the studio honest.
3. Just because some frachises aren't well run, that doesn't make all franchises bad. And folks, there are some awesome franchise studios out there!
4. In the US, I would be willing to bet that at least 75% the top competitors received training at a franchise.

B. Smith, people are not required to reveal their identity, but they may if they wish. Concerning liability, there have been cases of people being sued for making posts on forums. However, the forums themselves have been protected from liabilty in recent court judgements.

I think it's okay for someone to say something like, "I felt I was misled at an Arthur Murray studio", but not "The Arthur Murray Studio at 123 Main Street is running a scam on every student that walks through the door." If we noticed such a post that was specific to one studio, it would be edited or deleted.

Once again, I want to emphasize there are some wonderful Fred Astaire and Arthur Murray studios out there and there are also some terrible fly-by-night independant studios out there.

[SDsalsaguy]

B. Smith...welcome to the forums and thank you for contributing to this thread.

As I have tried to point out in my various posts, the franchises (both AMI and FADS) include both good and bad--just like anything in life! If you have additional points regarding what you perceive as benefits or advantages of FADS (or franchises in general) then please feel free to add those to our discussion. I, for one, would welcome such contributions.

On the issue of contracts, it should also be pointed out that the term is not a singular, monolithic referent. For one, not all contracts are created equal. I have visited franchise studios where the price per unit remains constant regardless of the number of units purchased and others with discounts for larger purchases. I'm not making a judgment call on this, but just pointing out that even the term "contract" has some variability involved as well. It should also be kept in mind that there are any numbers of independent schools who work on a contract basis as well--this is far from the unique purview of the chain schools.

Finally, as a point of clarification, I have been saying "franchise/franchises" in order to keep the thread open to input from all, not just those from one chain, so if that generalization was taken in the wrong way I do apologize.

(FYI, I did look on the FADS website for a history comparable to the one provided by AMI but, unfortunately, none such was available. Do you know of anything to this effect that could be shared?)

[DanceMentor]

What is a singular, monolithic referent?

Sounds like something out of 2001 a Space Oddysey. :tongue:
(sorry to get off topic)

[SDsalsaguy]

What is a singular, monolithic referent?

Sounds like something out of 2001 a Space Oddysey. :tongue:
(sorry to get off topic)

Sorry for slipping into "academese" (I'm grading some make-up finals at the moment, so that just sort of slipped out I guess). I was trying to point out that the term "contract," as it was being used here, did not just mean one large thing but, rather, actually included a range of related concepts and practices.

[pygmalion]

Here's a little more perspective on the franchise thing. Bear in mind that my experience is limited to one franchise, and one independent studio, so the observations I make may not be representative of everything out there.

At the franchise studio I attended, I ran into a very proprietary attitude from instructors, particularly since I was one of their best customers. My first instructor claimed me as "his" student and got very testy at the very suggestion I might want to take lessons with anyone else, whether for women's styling, or to broaden my knowledge of dances he didn't know.

Also at the same studio, students who had the most junior of teachers were charged the same rate as those taking lessons with the most experienced instructors, which I find to be ridiculous. $100 an hour for a teacher who just started dancing six weeks ago and just completed training? Absurd, but that's how they did it.


Also, be cautious about the "extras" making dance lessons a better value. Not necessarily. Do the math, if you're taking multiple lessons per week. The "value" of group lessons and practice parties diminishes quickly when spread over two or more lessons per week.

[msc]

It sort of depends on your level too. The more advanced you become, the more value you'll get out of lessons with advanced instructors. I kind of hate to say this, but I probably learn more in an hour from my current instructor than I've learned in 20 with previous ones. Even if they're more expensive, they're worth it. $100 usually buys an hour from a really good instructor around here, and there are many fairly experienced instructors whose time can be purchased at around the $50-$65 /hr range, depending on the dance.

[pygmalion]

Hey msc,


Same experience here. My early lessons were fun, but had very little value, comparatively speaking. Now, I take far fewer lessons, but learn much more. Who would have thought?

[SDsalsaguy]

Yup...price and value are two discrete things! They overlap at times, but that doesn't make them synonymous.

[pygmalion]

It looks like the entire franchise experiences thread disappeared yesterday. :cry: I certainly can't recreate it, because it was pages long. But I can remember the conversation from yesterday.

My first post stated that franchise studios carry an extra burden of high overhead. They have to pay franchise fees, salaries for larger staffs, pay for training programs, etc. All overhead. Independent studios, on the other hand, can cut out much of that overhead, so can often afford to charge lower prices.

SDsalsaguy responded by wondering why bother going to a franchise, if they charge such high prices. What is their value.

I'm going to respond with two posts, since they are on opposite sides of the issue.

Post one:

Franchise studios offer a lot of value to their students. At least, the studio where I started did. It was a fun-loving place that made dance accessible to me and many other people. That studio and its staff got me from terrified to dancing. I really doubt that I'd be dancing today if I had started out in the "real world" of ballroom dance. Not always a friendly place. But the franchise studios work had to create an atmosphere of support and friendship. They provide ample opportunities to perform in a supportive environment. They give safe, and fun, practice parties. They provide groups classes, often multiple group classes, nightly. They have large staffs with a variety of dance backgrounds.

The only reason I left my franchise studio is because I outgrew them, from a technical perspective. If it weren't for that, I'd still be there, salesmanship nonsense and all.

Post two comes next!

[pygmalion]

On the other side of the coin, there's this. (Oops! I just thought of post three. :lol: )

Franchise studios are in the business of selling lessons, not necessarily providing their students value, nor necessarily teaching them to dance. There are some exceptional studios out there that do both, I admit.

But let me tell you a scary story that one of my former franchise teachers told me. He had been teaching about six months when the studio's medal ball came around. On the day of the medal ball, the senior male teacher from that studio got into an argument with the manager and quit. Since the medal ball was on a Friday, the following Monday, he, with a total of six months in ballroom dance, was assigned to take over all of the senior teacher's former students, some of whom had been doing social ballroom dance for fifteen or twenty years, and were at gold and supreme gold levels. :shock:

What do you call that?

[pygmalion]

Okay. Here's post three, then I'm done for now. Sorry. I have strong opinions on the franchise issue! :lol:

Here's the thing. Independent teachers have to train somewhere, and they have to make a living while they're learning to teach. Whether you agree with it or not, many now-excellent independent teachers got their beginning training at a franchise. And franchises, for the most part, do have very good training programs.

What do you think about this issue? The issue of new, inexperienced teachers being paid to teach dance? Are the students being short-changed?

[SDsalsaguy]

SDsalsaguy responded by wondering why bother going to a franchise, if they charge such high prices. What is their value.

Ooops. I'm afraid I wasn't clear if this is what you read my post as saying. :(

Rather, what I intended was to say that if -- as your first post specified -- price wasn't something working for the franchises, what were the values? Same content I admit, but a very different tone. My original post in the long thread, for instance, did recognize the atmosphere of the franchise comp., etc.

[pygmalion]

Point taken, SD. Tone is everything, and so hard to read in an electronic format. I've gotten WAY dependent on emoticons for that reason. Thanks for the clarification. :D

Jenn

[DanceMentor]

...and it's always good to get references from outside sources.

[pygmalion]

True. References are a good way to make sure you're getting quality and value. And also make sure you know your own goals. Social dance and exhibition style dance are two different things, so before choosing a studio (or as soon as you can), decide what you want. This will prevent misunderstandings and disappointments.

[MissAlyssa]

weeeeeeeeell, I have to admit that I'm biased. I remember I posted this in the other franchise thread but I'm going to reitterate (sp?).

I am currently employed as a dance instructor in a franchised studio (for those of you that don't know) and I can honestly say I LOVE IT and I agree with both sides of what Pygmalion had to say.

Side 1:
Franchises do have a very friendly and warm atmosphere (not saying that independent studios don't), in fact, my studio's motto is "the most friendliest place in town". (know what studio that is..?? :) Franchises try really hard to get new students over their fears of dancing, and try really hard to make them comfortable in their surroundings. Eventually the studio, teachers and students, become one big family where everyone knows everyone else. Franchises also have a GREAT training program that helps the teachers excell to the next level at a quick pace so everyone will be on the same level. For example, my studio is working as we speak to certify every instructor in the bronze level. I could say more but it's time for...

Side 2:
Franchises do have higher tuitions than independent studios because of mass advertising etc. This is not necissarily all bad and I'll tell you why...in a franchise setting it may be easier to socialize and dance socially with other students at your level (compared to going out to a club/bar and dancing with someone random) which gets students more comfortable with social dancing. In franchises it's true, not all teachers are trained as "technical" instructors but that's not all bad because each teacher isn't the same. Some instructors are "advanced instructors" that teach the higher level students and some (the newer teachers) are "enrollment specialists" (or whatever the titles may be named) that deal with new students. At franchises a student may have 2 or 3 instructors at any given time (if not more). This way instructor 1 can teach steps, instructor 2 can dance them with the student, and instructor 3 (usually the same sex as the student) can help them out with technique and styling. I do think that one of the franchises bad points is the "p" word..."pressure". Some franchises pressure students very hard into buying. I think this is very foul, especially if an older student is being pressured. On the contrary, advice can be mixed up with "pressure". Some instructors (like myself) want their students to dance to their full potential. They lay out a plan and advise the students on what they think the student should do to further their education.

I've said enough, my eyes are going blurry. gotta go bye :)

[MissAlyssa]

I'd like to note that FADS doesn't have binding contracts, they have simple agreements that can be terminated at any time with no excuses.

[smoothdancingirl]

As you may notice...the majority of professional teachers (and I mean people that do this for their full time job) are not from the US. Most the people in our profession working here in the are from Europe. Hence all the Slavic sounding names. Anyway ballroom dancing has not been in the past something that children are trained to do in the US. Although this trend is currently changing. And most of the children taking dance are studying ballet, jazz, modern, etc. So that leaves a huge gap when studios are looking for new teachers. They are forced then to either import or train new teachers. Most opt to train people that have a dance background in another form of dance. I personally fell into this catagory. I have been dancing since the age of three, but didn't start training in ballroom until I was 22. So of course their are many professionals like myself that had to start competing some time and some where. I was thankful that when I did start competing that the the franchise I worked for offered a division for new professionals. It really helped build my confidence and helped me become a better teacher. Believe me if I would have had to start competing in Rising Star my first comp I probably would have never started at all. It is not only intimidating to dance against some of those fabulous dancers, but it also takes a certain amount of floor craft. And floor craft unfortunately is something you can only learn by actually dancing on the competition floor. And believe me social parties are like a walk in the park compared to competition. Also some smaller competitions don't offer Rising Star events only Open. And the small independent competitions are the ones you try to tackle after the comfort of your franchise comps. For example the first independent comp I ever competed at only had Open catagory for professionals. My partner and I were dancing right away against some of the top ranked pros like Ben and Shalene Archer. Nerve racking!

[pygmalion]

There's another post under articles, I think, that you may want to comment on as well. I think it's called the future of dancesport, or something like that. It talks about potentially changing the rules so that competitors are categorized by dance experience, rather then being given the somewhat arbitrary titles of amateur or professional depending on whether they're being paid, the way things are now.

[pygmalion]

Anyway ballroom dancing has not been in the past something that children are trained to do in the US. Although this trend is currently changing. And most of the children taking dance are studying ballet, jazz, modern, etc. So that leaves a huge gap when studios are looking for new teachers.

I've noticed that, as well. It's a totally different world in Europe and other places, where children are trained in ballroom practically from when they can walk. Not like here, where people start as young (or not-so-young :lol: ) adults.

I wonder why that is?

[pygmalion]

So of course their are many professionals like myself that had to start competing some time and some where. I was thankful that when I did start competing that the the franchise I worked for offered a division for new professionals. It really helped build my confidence and helped me become a better teacher. Believe me if I would have had to start competing in Rising Star my first comp I probably would have never started at all. It is not only intimidating to dance against some of those fabulous dancers, but it also takes a certain amount of floor craft. And floor craft unfortunately is something you can only learn by actually dancing on the competition floor. And believe me social parties are like a walk in the park compared to competition. Also some smaller competitions don't offer Rising Star events only Open. And the small independent competitions are the ones you try to tackle after the comfort of your franchise comps. For example the first independent comp I ever competed at only had Open catagory for professionals. My partner and I were dancing right away against some of the top ranked pros like Ben and Shalene Archer. Nerve racking!

As soon as I can think of a way to pose the question, I'll set up a thread where you can share some of your competition experiences with us.

By the way, yay! I'm glad you're here. Welcome to the forums. :D

[MissAlyssa]

As you may notice...the majority of professional teachers (and I mean people that do this for their full time job) are not from the US. Most the people in our profession working here in the are from Europe. Hence all the Slavic sounding names. Anyway ballroom dancing has not been in the past something that children are trained to do in the US. Although this trend is currently changing. And most of the children taking dance are studying ballet, jazz, modern, etc. So that leaves a huge gap when studios are looking for new teachers. They are forced then to either import or train new teachers. Most opt to train people that have a dance background in another form of dance. I personally fell into this catagory. I have been dancing since the age of three, but didn't start training in ballroom until I was 22. So of course their are many professionals like myself that had to start competing some time and some where. I was thankful that when I did start competing that the the franchise I worked for offered a division for new professionals. It really helped build my confidence and helped me become a better teacher. Believe me if I would have had to start competing in Rising Star my first comp I probably would have never started at all. It is not only intimidating to dance against some of those fabulous dancers, but it also takes a certain amount of floor craft. And floor craft unfortunately is something you can only learn by actually dancing on the competition floor. And believe me social parties are like a walk in the park compared to competition.


AMEN!

[SDsalsaguy]

Fair enough... certainly the franchise system provides an excellent entry point, training, and competitive experience for those who haven't been dancing for years already. And having a "starting-out" category is fine for helping out with floor experience, etc. Basically then the question becomes how, in any way, does having such beginning pro events benefit anyone but the new instructors, i.e. the consumers/students? More specifically, two questions come to mind:

(1) Even if a "beginner" event, why not still have a full division, i.e. 4/5 dances, like the independent comp rising star division? As pointed out in another thread dancing and teaching dance are two different, albeit highly related, skills. So, while I recognize that a great teacher may not be a great competitor, I still wonder if someone should be presenting themselves as a competing professional if they are dancing the equivalent of an amateur pre-novice, open event (2 dances).

(2) Why should this "floorcraft training" essentially be subsidized by students? The prize money for these events are coming from additional padding added to student prices. If we're talking a full rising star or open professional event then I can see it...but to watch "professional competitors" do the aforementioned two dance event?

[pygmalion]

Okay, so I'm jaundiced. But I think that this system is designed to primarily benefit the dance studios and/or the new teachers. (Edit: by "this system" I meant the franchise studio system. I was not talking about dance competitions, which are a different issue, in my mind) The students, for the most part, pay the costs, with few benefits. Why do the students go along with it? For the most part, because they don't know better and/or there are no better alternatives. * shrug* What can I say? I've had some pretty bad experiences with otherwise nice people who were turned into self-serving salesmen by the franchise studio system. :?

[MissAlyssa]

wow, that really sucks that you had that experience Jenn. I promise not all of us franchised instructors are predators.

[pygmalion]

Yes, I know, MissAlyssa. No matter where you go in life, there are good people and bad. Dance instructors are no different. *shrug* What can you do but beware, but stay open-minded.

[smoothdancingirl]

Basically then the question becomes how, in any way, does having such beginning pro events benefit anyone but the new instructors, i.e. the consumers/students?

The more I know and can do the more my students will benefit. (Keep in mind I have been dancing since I was three. So while I had inexperience in ballroom I had years and a degree in classical dance. Many of the techniques & so forth do overlap. )

More specifically, two questions come to mind:

(1) Even if a "beginner" event, why not still have a full division, i.e. 4/5 dances, like the independent comp rising star division? As pointed out in another thread dancing and teaching dance are two different, albeit highly related, skills. So, while I recognize that a great teacher may not be a great competitor, I still wonder if someone should be presenting themselves as a competing professional if they are dancing the equivalent of an amateur pre-novice, open event (2 dances).
They also did have a rising star event and open. However I will tell you preparing two dances is a lot easier than four. Also in the future champion events you don't need a gown and tux. Both as you know are very expensive. This event is only for teachers who have been in the business for less than a 1 1/2 yr. or less. That means you have to find a compatible partner and get two routines together in 1 1/2 yr. That's almost impossible. I was in the business for three years before I found my current partner and it took us another two years before we had all our choreography and ready to perform it.

(2) Why should this "floorcraft training" essentially be subsidized by students? The prize money for these events are coming from additional padding added to student prices. If we're talking a full rising star or open professional event then I can see it...but to watch "professional competitors" do the aforementioned two dance event?

You don't have to take students to compete professionally at any competition. In fact most comps I go to I don't take students. But when I was a new teacher competing in future champions division I was there with a newcomer student, so was my former dance partner. Plus professional routines are much more difficult than even some Gold students routines. So the floorcraft is a lot more challenging than fwd-fwd-sd-together! :)

[pygmalion]

wow, that really sucks that you had that experience Jenn. I promise not all of us franchised instructors are predators.

Now that I've had a little time to reflect on this, MissAlyssa, I'll reply again. I've had nine dance teachers so far. Two of them, coincidentally at a franchise, were snakes. :evil: The other seven, six franchise and one independent, are all very nice people.

The difference between the independent and franchise teachers, is that the franchise people are under much more pressure to make sales, and they're given training and scripts and coaching in how to make sales.

My independent instructor can make his own rules and can live by his own conscience, which appears to say give the students good training at a fair price -- no pressure. I'm sure, if he were still working at a franchise, which he did for years, the story might be different. Not because he wanted it that way, but because he was pressured into making it that way.

Here's my overall take, say what you will. Most, if not all, dance teachers have one agenda, the same agenda as the rest of us mere mortals. They want to use what they know to make a decent living. And that's fair. They deserve to make a decent living.

The problems start when people, dance teachers or otherwise, use the need to make a living as an excuse for indirect, or high pressure, or deceptive tactics. And I'm sure you find that in franchises and out. *shrug*

[pygmalion]

Basically then the question becomes how, in any way, does having such beginning pro events benefit anyone but the new instructors, i.e. the consumers/students?

The more I know and can do the more my students will benefit. (Keep in mind I have been dancing since I was three. So while I had inexperience in ballroom I had years and a degree in classical dance. Many of the techniques & so forth do overlap. )


SD and smoothdancingirl, this is such great information! Especially for me, since I'm just getting started in the world of pro/am competition. I'd hate for it to get buried in the franchise thread. I'm going to start a separate thread on competition rules and regs, so you can continue the conversation. Okay? :D

Jenn

[SDsalsaguy]

(2) Why should this "floorcraft training" essentially be subsidized by students? The prize money for these events are coming from additional padding added to student prices. If we're talking a full rising star or open professional event then I can see it...but to watch "professional competitors" do the aforementioned two dance event?

You don't have to take students to compete professionally at any competition. In fact most comps I go to I don't take students. But when I was a new teacher competing in future champions division I was there with a newcomer student, so was my former dance partner. Plus professional routines are much more difficult than even some Gold students routines. So the floorcraft is a lot more challenging than fwd-fwd-sd-together! :)
Hmmm, let me be clearer. Even if you don't take students with you when you are competing professionally, where does the pro prize money come from? From extra padding added to other students’ packages to offset this expenditure.

[pygmalion]

Here's my take on this, SD. Bear in mind I'm biased, because I have a great instructor who works hard to keep prices low, so the "padding" is minimal. ( Thanks, guy. You know who you are. :D )

To me, this is like the old R&D argument. Everybody wants the new improved product but nobody wants to pay the development costs. (Sorry. Years in Bell Labs -- what can I say?)

Here's the thing. If my instructor is an experienced competitor, I benefit. If there are lots of competitions that I can enter, I benefit. If world class dancers and judges see me dance and critique me, I benefit. The only way to make those things happen, that I can see, is to provide some sort of incentive to make it worth people's effort to sponsor or to enter these competitions. I know, at least for smaller competitions, the purses aren't that big, but at least there is some incentive. These are my thoughts.

Please correct me, because I'm sure don't have the whole picture. :? Anyone?

[SDsalsaguy]

I like the R&D metaphor Jenn. Hadn't thought of it that way before...hmmm, must go ponder...

[pygmalion]

Here's my take on this, SD. Bear in mind I'm biased, because I have a great instructor who works hard to keep prices low, so the "padding" is minimal. ( Thanks, guy. You know who you are. :D )

To me, this is like the old R&D argument. Everybody wants the new improved product but nobody wants to pay the development costs. (Sorry. Years in Bell Labs -- what can I say?)

Here's the thing. If my instructor is an experienced competitor, I benefit. If there are lots of competitions that I can enter, I benefit. If world class dancers and judges see me dance and critique me, I benefit. The only way to make those things happen, that I can see, is to provide some sort of incentive to make it worth people's effort to sponsor or to enter these competitions. I know, at least for smaller competitions, the purses aren't that big, but at least there is some incentive. These are my thoughts.

Please correct me, because I'm sure don't have the whole picture. :? Anyone?

I didn't mean to kill the conversation here. I was hoping that someone would come back with things they've seen done or out-of-the box suggestions to improve the current situation. Things like corporate sponsorships, or entry scholarships for juniors, or for people who demonstrate financial need. Or caps on allowable mark-ups studios can charge, or recommended price guidelines. Come on, folks, let's think about it. :D

[DennisBeach]

Me and my wife decided to try ballroom dancing about 3.5 years ago. We went to a Fred Astaire studio after seeing an introductory offer in the newspaper. We quickly discovered, we liked ballroom dancing and have continued with the studio ever since. We have tried a few group lessons and found we do not like group lessons, we also do not learned a fraction as much as we do in our 2 hours at the studio every 3 weeks. We have had quite a few different instructors, since they do move around a lot, particularily with 4 studios in Milwaukee. Teachers have ranged from good to excellent. All have been extremely nice. Taking 2 lessons every 3 weeks, we are not a big source of revenue for them, but they treat us extremely well.

Our objective is purely social dancing. They originally tried to talk us into showcases and competitions, but that is not our area of interest. Once it was clear, what our objectives were, they have been very supportive of our goals. We are rather frugal ( cheap ), so we really have to be convinced of the value, to spend the money for lessons at a major franchise. But we felt that FADS is the best value for our investment.

We practise at least once a week and go dancing once a week. Even though we only take lessons every 3 weeks, we are progressed way beyond our expectations.

The studio also tries to match the teachers to the students. As we have progressed, the capabilities of the teachers they assign to us, has went up. We currently have one teacher, who is awsome at technique and has really helped us improve extensively in 6 months he has worked with us.

They but us in what they call the amalgamated program or something like that, that allows them to work with us at different levels in each dance, based on our progress in that dance.

There organization is very beneficial, when a teacher leaves, the new teacher just needs to review our book to see where we are at. They also pick the patterns that we will be able to use on a rather crowded dance floor. We have been very please with FADS and would recommend them to any who wants get into social or competitive ballroom dancing.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi Dennis, and welcome to the forums!

Thanks for sharing your perspective as a very satisfied customer. I'm glad to hear that your experiences have been so positive, that your goals have been accepted and respected, and that you and your wife have met with such enjoyment and success. :D

Out of curiosity, what actually drew you are your wife to try ballroom? What was it that grabbed you once you tried it?

And, again, welcome to the forums!

[pygmalion]

Hi Dennis! :D Welcome to the forums. :D

Yes, from what I've heard, many people are very happy with their experience at Fred Astaire studios. Enjoy the studio, and, more importantly, enjoy the dancing.

Welcome to the forums. :D


Jenn

[DennisBeach]

Thanks for the welcome. When we started, I thought we would learn a little and maybe going dance once every couple of months. I did not think we would like it enough to drive 50 plus miles to dance every week. We keep hearing, we need to exercise. In my opinion the key to actually doing that, is finding something we enjoy, that provides good exercise. Ballroom dance really covers that for us. It also puts the courtship back in the marraige, which is something that we should never lose.

The people at the studio seem to really enjoy helping people get into something that provides enjoyment and excellent exercise.

[pygmalion]

Here's an interesting article which summarizes one person's view of the relative advantages and disadvantages of lessons at a franchise studio.

http://www.friendsofdance.com/advantages_of_a_major_chain_stud.htm

[pygmalion]

Another good article here, which bgreaks down what a new student can expect from taking lessons at a typical dance studio -- enlightening stuff, here.

http://www.friendsofdance.com/what_to_expect_from_any_dance_st.htm

[DancingMommy]

Here's some background information on AMI as provided by their website.

AMI also has this to say in its FAQ section:
How qualified will my instructor be?
All of our dance experts must complete a most arduous training regimen. They are experienced on the dance floor and knowledgable in all techniques to help you master today's popular dances. Rest assured the teachers selected for you are the best in the business.

This makes me laugh out loud. Really. On the inside. I started dancing at an Arthur Murray franchise in Atlanta (got good training from the owner - but the other teachers were a different story).

I ended up *teaching* if you can believe it not too long after that - a twist of fate really - both in Atlanta and in Orlando. And then I ended up "retiring" permanently from teaching due to a serious back injury.

I now dance am with my husband (when I'm not pregnant, lol). We train with Rick Elliott at Longwood Independant Studio in Longwood, FL.

I can say this with assurance... Not all franchises are equal and not all independant studios are equal. If I compared the independant I worked at in Orlando (owned/operated by a former AMI franchisee and former partner of the owner of the AMI in Atlanta that I began at) to the studio we currently train at, there is NO comparison whatsoever. Of course, comparing Rick to "the other guy" is apples and oranges considering that Rick is a former Blackpool Finalist (as a junior) and is currently ranked with his new partner in Am Smooth. The "other guy" last competed in the 60s (I think). Go figure.

I'll say this for the AMI owner in Atlanta, the woman KNOWS how to teach. And she knows how to run a business. I only wish it hadn't cost so much for lessons. :-)

[DancingMommy]

I spoke with a FADS state director and he told me there is a federal law capping contracts at $7500. He told me that people still sell more than this, especially in Florida.

There are some pretty stiff regs here in FLA regarding the sale of contracts, etc. I know for a fact, that a studio has to have like a minimum of $15,000 bond if they sell contracts.

The law basically revolves around this dollar amount: you collect more than $200 tuition at one time, you have to have a bond and a contract with super-specific wording regarding refunds etc. That's why there are a SLEW of independants here and not that many franchises/"typical" studios.

In fact, most "studios" are pretty much run "like franchises" but without benefit of the network of coaches etc. These particular studios really suck as far as their teachers and the quality of their students' learning.

That being said, I'm aware that NDCA has passed a ruling that all registered pros have to get "certified" through a member org by a certain date, or their NDCA membership will not be renewed. I'm hoping that will alleviate *some* of the bad teacher problem we have down here (at least as far as comps are concerned). Hopeful, but not really expecting it to do much.

That in itself was one reason why I quit teaching (along with the back injury). I knew there was NO way on earth I could get certified before the deadline in all 10 dances/9 dances. Currently, we're just working on our standard routines and getting ready for our first am comp.

[DancingMommy]

I didn't mean to kill the conversation here. I was hoping that someone would come back with things they've seen done or out-of-the box suggestions to improve the current situation. Things like corporate sponsorships, or entry scholarships for juniors, or for people who demonstrate financial need. Or caps on allowable mark-ups studios can charge, or recommended price guidelines. Come on, folks, let's think about it. :D

Here's the deal... Up until now, competitions in general have been <ahem> difficult to know about unless you were "in the know" or had a contact that was. Now, with the advent of places like AccessDance where comps list everything on the website - including order forms, etc and *prices*!!! Even an average joe can go about ordering tickets etc without paying the usual markup that studios charge. Also, organizers are starting to offer "local" or "no room" packages for attendees who could otherwise make alternate arrangements for food and lodging that are more budget-wise.

I'm all for mark-up caps on the prices that the organizers charge. Or better yet, let there be competitors "at large" who choose to compete without a studio affiliation. I know that AMs can do that...

Also, I have had a formula worked out for some time that actually limits the amount that an AM in a Pro/Am would have to pay. It's pretty complicated but it works, lol. :-) It is predicated of course, on whether or not the Pro is already attending a comp and how many other students are attending with said Pro. I don't think most AMs like to be baby-sat (as one of my former employers called it) like some studio owners think they do. If you are going there to dance, then do that. It isn't a freaking Disney World Vacation after all. I mean if you go to Disney World, do you expect Mickey to shuttle you around and be your tour guide? Heck no.

</end rant>

[DanceMentor]

If you are going there to dance, then do that. It isn't a freaking Disney World Vacation after all. I mean if you go to Disney World, do you expect Mickey to shuttle you around and be your tour guide? Heck no.

ROTFLMAO :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

Ok DancingMommy, but but now tell us how you really feel! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[DancingMommy]

Ok DancingMommy, but but now tell us how you really feel! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you *really* want to know??? Cuz I can GO ON AND ON on that one....

I've seen both sides of the fence on this one and I do have an opinion. :wink:

OK, so here's the magic formula for keeping comp costs reasonable for the student.....

1. Determine number of students attending
2. Count number of entries/student
3. Determine what days each student will be competing
4. Is the pro going to compete with a pro partner?

if "yes", and the pro heats are danced on the same day as same of the heats as any of the students, delete that day as a teacher expense or at minimum only charge for the actual time you will be focused on your students. You'll be there anyway and it isn't fair to charge students for time that you are using to pursue your goals as a pro.

if "no" or "yes" and the pro heats are NOT danced on the same day as same of the heats as any of the students, add that day as a teacher expense.

5. Determine which packages/travel arrangements work best for which students. If a student is only competing on one day, then don't have them buy more package than they need. They'll thank you for it!

Sometimes (especially at local comps) students are only going for a few hours and don't care to get all the "stuff" - programs, etc. and don't need a hotel. I know for us at Sunshine State in '01, we actually got our hotel using the Florida Resident discount. It ended up being CHEAPER than the comp rate. :-) And never underestimate the power of places like expedia.com.

Here is the most complicated example I can come up with:

You have 4 students going to a comp that lasts 3 days.
Your students are competing all 3 days, but only 1 is competing the full 3 days, one is competing 2 days & the other 2 are competing 1 day.
You are competing with your pro partner on 2 of those days.
You are one very busy pro!

On a grid it looks like this:

Day 1 Day 2 Day 3
Student 1 Student 1 Student 1
Student 2 Student 2
Student 3 Student 3
Student 4
Pro Comp Pro Comp

Student 1 is not dancing that many entries, but they are spread out.
Student 2 is dancing a ton of one-dance events as well as scholarships.
Student 3 is dancing scholarships and solo exhibitions.
Student 4 is only dancing one dance events.
You (the pro) are dancing rising star one day and open the next.

How to split "expenses":
Day one should be split evenly by 3 since there are 3 students.
Day two should be split evenly by 5 since there are 3 students and you and partner will be there competing anyway.
Day three should be split evenly by 4 since there are 2 students and you and partner will be there competing anyway.

Only on day one should the pro in question think about getting reimbursed for food or hotel since they would already be there in the first place for days 2 & 3. Days 2 & 3 are deductible business expenses for the pro.

Students should be responsible for their own food/lodging if *not* on a package. Pros shouldn't mark up the package prices as they are already large enough as it is. If you want to charge something, charge for the actual time that you will be with the students dancing with them (IE: per entry surcharge). A typical reaonable surcharge per entry would be about $10. After all, how much do you get paid for an hour lesson? Say $60/hr. How long are you dancing that one entry? Maybe 2 minutes? Figure that you have on deck time, practice time, whatever, you can't charge a whole day's pay to every student who is going. They *will* compare notes.

For students going as spectators, don't even think about upcharging!!! Shame on you if you do! My husband ran into this once. The studio wanted to charge him $700 for one night accomodation including spectating NOT including food. He said NO WAY! I know for a fact that other teachers at the same studio were offering the same "deal" for $500. Shame shame shame.

I know this is long and probably doesn't make any sense, but I have a spreadsheet somewhere from when I used to teach... Maybe if I can find it, I'll post it...

[pygmalion]

In fact, most "studios" are pretty much run "like franchises" but without benefit of the network of coaches etc. These particular studios really suck as far as their teachers and the quality of their students' learning.

That being said, I'm aware that NDCA has passed a ruling that all registered pros have to get "certified" through a member org by a certain date, or their NDCA membership will not be renewed. I'm hoping that will alleviate *some* of the bad teacher problem we have down here (at least as far as comps are concerned). Hopeful, but not really expecting it to do much.



Fortunately, not all independent studios are run like franchises, at least in terms of the contracts, etc. I'm currently studying at two independent studios in Orlando, and it's a totally different story there. Fortunately, because my trust of dance teachers was spread pretty thin after my franchise experiences.

Also, did you know that AMI and FADS are both NDCA-approved member organizations? So they can basically certify their own teachers from within. So, as you say, some of thebad teacher problem can be eliminated, but some will likely remain. :(

[pygmalion]

[Here's the deal... Up until now, competitions in general have been <ahem> difficult to know about unless you were "in the know" or had a contact that was. Now, with the advent of places like AccessDance where comps list everything on the website - including order forms, etc and *prices*!!! Even an average joe can go about ordering tickets etc without paying the usual markup that studios charge. Also, organizers are starting to offer "local" or "no room" packages for attendees who could otherwise make alternate arrangements for food and lodging that are more budget-wise.



Oh Dancing Mommy. I'm going to love having you around! :D Yes, and dancesportcomps.com is another place to get that sort of information. Some promoters are more forthcoming with information than others, though. Some have prices and everything listed, some, you have to be a registered pro to access the information -- so it's go through a pro, or you're out of luck.

[DancingMommy]

Some have prices and everything listed, some, you have to be a registered pro to access the information -- so it's go through a pro, or you're out of luck.

Or "former pro" - hint hint. 8)

FYI, I still get all the info from most of the comps going on (even though I don't *ask* for it). It's the only direct mail I like, LOL.

Anyone want comp info, come to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :P

[twodance]

Boy a lot of opinions on this topic !!
I used to work for AMI as a manager. my wife used to work at FADS. Now we own an independent studio. Most of the independent owners started at one of the franchises. So there is not really any difference between the two. Both have to follow the same laws. The ballroom industry was regulated by the FTC in the 1970's, due to unethical practices by the franchises. This is where the contracts came from. No school is doing you a favor by having you sign a contract... it's the law.
In the state of Ohio the legal limit for dance lessons is 200 lessons or $12,000.00 which ever comes first. These are known as 'Blue Sky 'laws and change from state to state. In Ill. the limit I belive is only $3000.00 so the limit varies a lot. In Ohio any thing sold over $300.00 has to be on a contract. My best advice is don't be a victim. Know the law, call your Att. General's office in your state for your laws and if the studio has any backgroud of unfavorable business practices.

[twodance]

To get info. about any competition simply write or e-mail the organizer and tell them you are an Ameteur couple. They will send you the entire package cost and all. Things have changed over the years and the information is there if you want it. (If you tell them are part of a studio they will send the info. to the studio)

[pygmalion]

Yes. This topic generated a lot of discussion, didn't it? 8)

The vast majority of the independent studios here offer lessons on a pay-as-you-go basis, with no contracts at all, just personal commitments. That seems to work very well. Only the franchise studios still do the long term contracts, and the contracts do seem to be weighted in favor of the studios, rather than the students.

[dreamalways]

Okay, this link is hitting the nail on the head.

I am very unhappy with my AM studio because I believe the owner is marking competitions up too much. But, how do I find this out?

I think it was DancingMommy (thanks for all your rant!!!) that said to contact the organizers. Can that be done for an AM event too? Will they give me (a little amateur) that info? I'm thinking probably not.

[dreamalways]

Just looked back up at posts and saw TwoDance said to contact organizers.

Anyone with any info on this i'd appreciate hearing what a AM event runs on the average, for example the Dance-O-Ramas.

I have been quoted a average price of $2,500.00 and that is without airfare.

How does that sound to anyone from the franchise world?

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi dream always.... I've never competed within the franchise system so can't speak to how typical that price sounds. As far as I can tell, however, the prices for most *in franchise* events probably isn't subject to all that much fluctuation. This doesn't, of course, mean that there isn't a lot of mark up in the prices, just that your studio probably isn't too much different from any others.

Just my $.02...

[tango]

The franchise events are significantly more than other events. At my franchise studio a competition runs about $3500CDN ($2500US). Non franchise events are much cheaper (about $800 depending on many things) and here is why:

1. With the franchises you have to bring along all the instructors, so you're paying their way (hotel room, travel, salary, food, etc.) The reason all the staff go along is that it's a training session for them. Non-franchise events you don't have to pay for someone else's rooms and meals, just yours.

2. You're stuck with them...i.e. you get a hotel room for 3 or so days and and you eat, dance and socialize with them. There's no time for anything else. Also, since it's sold as a package picking your room and own meals is out of the question. Non-franchise you can pick your own hotel and eat where you choose.

3. I'm not sure of the cost of 'heats' but in non-franchise you pick your own and generally it's $10 to $20 per heat. With franchises you never know the cost but I've heard it runs $40 to $80 per heat. This may be specific to Pro-Am couples.

4. Also, the higher costs represent the judges fees. The last comp I attended they had: Cher Rutherford, Alain Doucet and Anik Jolicoeur (Canadian Champs), Jean Marc Generoux and France Mousseau. They judged and did some showcase performances for the two nights. These people don't come cheap so you pay with an increased entrance fee.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. That $2500 sounds about right. I paid less than half of that, but mine was a one-day comp, with no hotel stay required, and involved only one pro, so there was no overhead for all the teachers involved.

Actually, DancingMommy may have more good input on the actual costs, since she has access to the pro-only wholesale package info. And the cost to the student may vary from studio to studio, tango. The dance pros get a wholesaler's package and calculate their own markup. Some of the horror stories I've heard lead me to believe that the markup can be much higher at some studios than at others, so make sure you're working with people you trust.

Do you have a particular comp in mind, tango?

[tango]

The franchise comps are only available to students at the franchise. They're actually quite small (there's only six franchise's in the province) so I think the markup is slightly higher, but not unreasonable for two people. They do take care of you though... they haul your suitecases to the rooms, get you for dinner, provide free drinks, act like your friend and generally make sure you have a good time.

The non-franchise event was the Falls Premier Ball in Niagra Falls, Ontario (http://www.fallspremierball.com). I didn't attend, I was busy getting married. It's more reasonable for budget minded people since you can pick and choose your lodgings and where to eat, etc. etc.

I have a partner so I don't need to bring along a pro and their rental fees, which is nice, but I would also like to have a coach for these events.

[pygmalion]

Okay, this link is hitting the nail on the head.

I am very unhappy with my AM studio because I believe the owner is marking competitions up too much. But, how do I find this out?

I think it was DancingMommy (thanks for all your rant!!!) that said to contact the organizers. Can that be done for an AM event too? Will they give me (a little amateur) that info? I'm thinking probably not.

Hi dreamalways! I'm not sure how I missed this earlier. As an amateur, you probably can't get the information you want directly. Most comp promoters keep that info secret, as a courtesy to the dance pros. Your best bet is to befriend a pro and get a look at the wholesaler package.

And are you talking about in-franchise comps, or publicly promoted comps that are attended by people at your franchise studio. If it's a within-franchise comp you're talking about, I doubt you'll ever get the info you want.

[pygmalion]

Okay. I just googled dance-o-rama. It's a two or three day, within-franchise, AMI, competition. I seriously doubt you're going to get any inside info from the organizers. The best you can hope for is to get the low down from members of a discussion forum like this one. I wish I could help, but I have no experience with AMI. Sorry.

[pygmalion]

Now you folks have me thinking again. What's the value of these Dance-o-ramas? Are they respected in the competitive dance world? Or are they just an activity that is recognized within a particular franchise?

The franchise I was once affilaited with had periodic studio to studio "competitions," but they were more fun events than anything else. I didn't view them as actual competitive experience, at all.

Thoughts, anyone?

[dreamalways]

Thanks for the feedback. I think I may try and find a amateur partner and attend some of the comps that are not sponsored by AMI.

[pygmalion]

I'm looking into this myself, dreamalways. From what I understand, it's a lot less expensive to enter as an amateur, because you don't have to pay for the pro's time spent.

Here's an interesting side note: My current coach told me the other day, "I'd love to dance pro-am with you, but I really encourage you to attend the dance activities. Maybe you can find an amateur partner." That's how I knew he was a good and honest guy. :wink:

[dreamalways]

Here's an interesting side note: My current coach told me the other day, "I'd love to dance pro-am with you, but I really encourage you to attend the dance activities. Maybe you can find an amateur partner." That's how I knew he was a good and honest guy. :wink:

I agree that your coach is being good and honest with you. I believe my situation is calling me to change directions and do things differently this coming year. Thanks for the feedback.

[pygmalion]

Good luck dreamalways. Let us know how things go for you. 8) :)

[dreamalways]

I will let you know, in the meantime I am going to do a LOT of reading here in dance-forums. So much good reading and helpful information I'm finding here.

Good luck to you too pygmalion. :D

[pygmalion]

:D :D :D Thanks, and it's Jenn, to my friends. :wink: 8)

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and one thing I forgot, dreamalways. The website is not complete, just yet, but once it gets up, I suggest you take a look at dancesportcomps.com They have a state by state listing of dance competitions, so you can plan your own agenda without being dependent on a dance pro to tell you what's coming to your area.

[SDsalsaguy]

Oh yeah, and one thing I forgot, dreamalways. The website is not complete, just yet, but once it gets up, I suggest you take a look at dancesportcomps.com They have a state by state listing of dance competitions, so you can plan your own agenda without being dependent on a dance pro to tell you what's coming to your area.
Also keep in mind that most independent comps have their own websites which do include pricing information... which makes it really easy to see for yourself exactly what expenses are entailed. :wink:

[pygmalion]

True. Many do provide information, and some lock out lowly non-pros. Who knows why the promoters make these decisions.*shrug* Either way, I've found dancesportcomps.com very helpful because it usually has the web sites and contact information of the independent comps listed, and you can go get the information for yourself.

[pygmalion]

Just to not get topics scrambled, I'm going to post more stuff on getting independent comp information in the "How do comps work" thread. Then we can leave this thread for people to discuss strictly franchise related stuff. Okay? :?

[Genesius Redux]

A number of people have mentioned that they only recently started dancing and had questions about costs and options, so I thought I'd try to resurrect this thread!

Cheers,

Genesius

[pygmalion]

This is a good, but controversial, thread, GR. People (myself included :oops: :lol: ) tend to be passionately on one side of the argument or the other.

[twodance]

Okay. I just googled dance-o-rama. It's a two or three day, within-franchise, AMI, competition. I seriously doubt you're going to get any inside info from the organizers. The best you can hope for is to get the low down from members of a discussion forum like this one. I wish I could help, but I have no experience with AMI. Sorry.
Ok. The AMI studios are broken down into 6 regions. Each region can have it's own dance o rama. These are usually organized by the franchisse's. These cannot be more than 3 days long. The wholesale cost changes because of the venue. But an average of $500.00 -$900.00 p.p. is about right. Then each studio puts their markup on the package. This is to cover the cost of teachers package and loss of teaching time. Each studio can markup as much as they want since every studio is independantly owned and operated. Arthur Murray International does not own any studios. :wink: Each owner simply pays a fee to use the Arthur Murray name. The AMI superrama is put on by AMI. and is without a doubt one of the best run competitions I have attended ( and I usually attend around 15 a year). These tend to be almost a week long if you get the earky arrival package. Because the dance o rama's are a closed event ie. only open to AM students you will not be able to get a price list from AMI. But their is no reason you shouldn't be able to see the wholesale price from AMI that your franchissee has. This way you see if you are getting a fair price or paying too much. At my studio my students see the wholesale list on packages and entries. They know how much of a pro fee I charge and all of this is printed out for them for each comp. we attend.

[twodance]

Now on the pro side of things. If you showed up at work and your boss told you that you had to go out of town for a week and you had to pay for your own airfare, hotel, food and misc. costs. Then told you he was not going to pay you since you would be out for the week. Would you go?When we attend a competition with our students our studio is closed. So we charge pro fee for being there with our students. Just like any job. But I have seen a lot of people abuse this fee to the extreme. Since the lessons we teach are regulated by the FTC there are rules. But on competition cost there are no rules hence the abuse. People spending 4-5 times more than they should be. Just a look at Dancesport comps.com, Dancesportsuperbowl.com to name a couple gives you the links to every competition in the U.S. Most of these have the price list on their web sites. If the pricew you are paying seems too much, do some research !!

[pygmalion]

Yes, twodance!

I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that they're on a dance lesson/session/comp, but their teacher is working.

[SDsalsaguy]

I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that they're on a dance lesson/session/comp, but their teacher is working.
This can be hard to keep track of when some instructors take a brand new studnet to an event, leave them in the hotel room, and go off to spend hours and hours socializing with their own friends. Certainly the vast majority of instructors do nothing of this sort, and certainly those few who do don't only come from the ranks of the franchises.

[dancin_feet]

Now you folks have me thinking again. What's the value of these Dance-o-ramas? Are they respected in the competitive dance world? Or are they just an activity that is recognized within a particular franchise?

The franchise I was once affilaited with had periodic studio to studio "competitions," but they were more fun events than anything else. I didn't view them as actual competitive experience, at all.

Thoughts, anyone?

We have regular dance competition days, but you are competing against yourself because the scores are calculated according to how many lessons you've had. They are included in the price of private lessons so the day is actually free if you want to enter. I agree, they are more fun than anything else, but as I'm not really interested in competing at the moment, it's fine for me. For me all the elements are there, the opportunity to grade yourself, show off, control nerves, etc. Just not the overly competitive atmosphere.

There is also a yearly national competition, which they are in the midst of trying to get me to attend. As you have to pay your own way, there is no way I can justify $700 - $800 to go and maybe get a trophy out of it. Pretty expensive trophy!!! :shock: :wink: In the greater scheme of things, it really means nothing.

[SDsalsaguy]

There is also a yearly national competition, which they are in the midst of trying to get me to attend. As you have to pay your own way, there is no way I can justify $700 - $800 to go and maybe get a trophy out of it. Pretty expensive trophy!!! :shock: :wink: In the greater scheme of things, it really means nothing.
You're right dancin_feet, that would be one mighty expensive trophy! :shock:

I, however, will be happy to sell you one for the bargain price of only $350! :D

[dancin_feet]

There is also a yearly national competition, which they are in the midst of trying to get me to attend. As you have to pay your own way, there is no way I can justify $700 - $800 to go and maybe get a trophy out of it. Pretty expensive trophy!!! :shock: :wink: In the greater scheme of things, it really means nothing.
You're right dancin_feet, that would be one mighty expensive trophy! :shock:

I, however, will be happy to sell you one for the bargain price of only $350! :D

Even that's a bit much for me at the moment, I'm afraid, but thanks for the offer! :wink: I may go next year, hopefully I'll be a bit more financial then.

[SDsalsaguy]

There is also a yearly national competition, which they are in the midst of trying to get me to attend. As you have to pay your own way, there is no way I can justify $700 - $800 to go and maybe get a trophy out of it. Pretty expensive trophy!!! :shock: :wink: In the greater scheme of things, it really means nothing.
You're right dancin_feet, that would be one mighty expensive trophy! :shock:

I, however, will be happy to sell you one for the bargain price of only $350! :D

Even that's a bit much for me at the moment, I'm afraid, but thanks for the offer! :wink: I may go next year, hopefully I'll be a bit more financial then.
OK, just for you I'll make the special, only-if you-sign-up-today, offer of a trophy for the unherad of price of only $200!!!! :shock: :shock: :D :D

[dancin_feet]

OK, just for you I'll make the special, only-if you-sign-up-today, offer of a trophy for the unherad of price of only $200!!!! :shock: :shock: :D :D

Foil and chocolate buddy, foil and chocolate!! :D :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Foil and chocolate buddy, foil and chocolate!! :D :D
Sorry d_f, but my chocolate covered coffee beans have long been promised to anothe DFite... :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

I just wanted to point out this new thread about substitute teachers (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3210) as it mentions Franchises and practices several times.

[dragon3085]

I've been with AM for 4 years now and so long as my instructor stays I will stay as well so long as I can afford it. I will say this, 1. Our studio does not seem typical of other AM studios, and 2. there is a difference between the teaching and the managment staff. The managment should get on their knees and kiss the feet of the instructor because they are the only reason we stay.

[samba ajr]

I'm planning on going to the New York City DanceArama next month. Anyone else?

I was planning on going to an independent comp next weekend, but as other students dropped out, my price went up (I would have been the only one there with my pro). I decided to skip that and put the money into DanceArama. (I'm still going to go [to Stardust] for dinner and the show, and take my Mom for her Mother's Day gift! And my pro will still be joining us--pretty good deal!)

Anyway--I did look at the website for the independent comp. The dance entries were about $30-35 each. OK. My pro quoted me $50 each. I nodded my head and didn't let on. I do understand that he needs to be compensated for his time. I do believe that if I pressed the issue, he'd actually lower my price. In fact, since I'm the one at the studio who goes to nearly every event, he tried to reduce my costs for the independent comp.

I guess i need to get myself an amateur partner so we can go to the "lower priced" comps! Any takers? :wink:

[Kitty]

I guess i need to get myself an amateur partner so we can go to the "lower priced" comps! Any takers? :wink:

And also you'd be more in charge of your own dancing and can put together you own cute routines and can practice for free, lessons are half price (the other half is paid by your partner)...

[SDsalsaguy]

Here's a new, related thread from Larinda that may be of interest. Her actual question had to do with closed vs. open studio systems, but a lot of comments have been made regarding franchises in this context :arrow: independant or employeed, which is more honest (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3333)

[LatinDancer006]

Welcome to the forums Taita! (And, FYI, I did enjoy your post :D)


On the issue of value, you also point out the valuable point (sorry, couldn’t help myself) that price is not synonymous with value. Aside from the fact that a higher quality lesson will get you further faster, there are some things you will never get—no matter how much time and money you invest—from even an infinite number of lower quality lessons. As such, the quality of the lesson needs to be factored in as much as the price and, despite larger social pressures to the contrary, price should not be conflated with value.

:confused: Price does not equal/conflated to value? Well, okay maybe with a product like jewlery. I can understand that owners attach sentimental values and emotions with a piece of jewlery that might make it more valuable to them than the fair market price. But with service, price is a gauge of the value(quality) of the service offered. So, I don't know where you're going with this. Yes most of the independents don't offer group classes and socials with their program; you'd have to pay for that separately. You're not comparing apples with apples here. To do that, you have to total the cost of a private lesson and a group class and a social which still is slightly less than the price of one lesson at a franchise.

[fascination]

no...not in all cases...my old studio just sold to a franchise and I can tell you that most of the instructors who were there as an independent studio had far more experience and expertise as instructors...I was charged a lower rate for privates and it included the groups and socials...the rate is higher now for less on a number of counts

[chocolatchica]

I started out taking ballroom lessons at Arthur Murray and tottaly fell in love with the studio at first but the longer I was at the studio the worst it seemed to get. They taught I little too simple and slow for my taste (plus little to no technique) and it seemed as though they were trying to hold me back so I would buy more lessons. I also had a bad experiance with the owner and a teacher because it was too much gossip and drama. I think that a studio should be more proffesional about such issues and it really turned me off to Arthur Murray. Ontop of that I started raking privated with a private instructor and AM and I felt as though I was as good as or just one step away from being as good as my instructor. That didn't really help me put too much confidence in my lessons. Sorta like I was just learning whats in the book. But on the up side, they're competitions are some of the best I have ever seen or been a part of because the dancer you meet there are just awesome friendly people. They cheer you on all the way and it seemed so fun; not too competitive. I always looked forward to the competitions for sure! I think its a great way to get started in the omcpetition world. Would love to go back but I believe it about $700-$800 a month for a private a week and groups. Wayyyy to pricey for my tast and budget for that matter. Sorry Arthur Murray!

[tangotime]

I am really amazed at the number of people on the site , that have had chain school exp. Can,t make some of the comments public I would like to share , having been involved with both franchises at very high levels for many yrs . raised in the "english " system , one would think that there are vast differences in the operating approach. Many schools have pre paid class course set ups. does not happen with private lessons, but to your peril, if you cancel too often, they will tell you to find another teacher ! . The comments are so diverse in the posts and much of what is said I would agree with .I have been asked in the past, which system , if I had a choice , would I have prefered to be " schooled " in-- tough choice, for different reasons . ( p.s. for the J.Lanza poster-- worked for him on 2 occasions )

[Chris Stratton]

:confused: Price does not equal/conflated to value? Well, okay maybe with a product like jewlery. I can understand that owners attach sentimental values and emotions with a piece of jewlery that might make it more valuable to them than the fair market price. But with service, price is a gauge of the value(quality) of the service offered. So, I don't know where you're going with this. Yes most of the independents don't offer group classes and socials with their program; you'd have to pay for that separately. You're not comparing apples with apples here. To do that, you have to total the cost of a private lesson and a group class and a social which still is slightly less than the price of one lesson at a franchise.

No, price is not very well corellated with value in ballroom instruction at all. Price tends to be based on what the teacher (or their employer) thinks they can or should charge. This bears extremely little relation to the teacher's depth and accuracy of knowledge, and ability to communicate - if it bears relationship to the teacher's status at all, it is usually to their fame and position in the local hierarchy.

In comparing prices, remember that those group+private+party practices are only of value as long as the group and party are of value. For post-beginner dancers, such things are usually no longer of core educational value - some continue doing them for fun, but it is not usually worth being forced to purchase them as well to get the private lesson that you actually need. It's possible to have group activities of real value to more advanced dancers, but you need a critical mass of more advanced dancers to offer that, and its rare to be able to collect enough into one studio.

[Larinda McRaven]

it is usually to their fame and position in the local hierarchy.

very asstute. (sp?)

[DeltaVim]

very asstute. (sp?)

That's a cool one, Larinda! (It's 'astute'.)
There is a certain truism in your spelling in it, when it comes to oddities of pay scale distribution.

The market will pay what the market will bear (i.e. as little as one can get away with and still get the desired outcome); sometimes this leads to weird situations where highly intelligent and qualified people are screwed and given crap salaries (e.g. portions of academia), and people who have a higher percieved economic value get showered with money (NFL, etc).

It's somewhat weird, but it's the result of *human nature* as expressed through capitalism. If one doesn't like one's position in things, one just has to figure out how to get in a situation of more actual and percieved value.

The bigger a 'name' one has, the more bargaining power. In the end, it's all about the power to walk away from a price or situation--who needs to stay in the deal more has lower bargaining power.

[tuftufwang]

Just looked back up at posts and saw TwoDance said to contact organizers.

Anyone with any info on this i'd appreciate hearing what a AM event runs on the average, for example the Dance-O-Ramas.

I have been quoted a average price of $2,500.00 and that is without airfare.

How does that sound to anyone from the franchise world?
$2500 without airfare???!!! Goodness gracious! How many days are you competing? Does this include hotel stay? That sure sounds quite high to me? My cost usually runs between $1000 to $1500 depending on the location. Here's the breakdown (non-franchise):

my airfare - $230-$300
hotel stay (2 nts) - $250-$350
fees to instructor - $500 (he usually brings 3 students so his expenses are equally divided)
entry fees - $260-$300

On second thought, maybe your cost is a lot higher if your instructor dances with you only, which means that you have shoulder the entire cost.

[tanya_the_dancer]

$2500 without airfare???!!! Goodness gracious! How many days are you competing? Does this include hotel stay? That sure sounds quite high to me? My cost usually runs between $1000 to $1500 depending on the location. Here's the breakdown (non-franchise):

my airfare - $230-$300
hotel stay (2 nts) - $250-$350
fees to instructor - $500 (he usually brings 3 students so his expenses are equally divided)
entry fees - $260-$300

On second thought, maybe your cost is a lot higher if your instructor dances with you only, which means that you have shoulder the entire cost.

How many dances are you doing if your entry fees are only $300? My competition costs are usually around $2600, but I am doing a lot of entries, so the entry fees part is a lot bigger, last time it was $1500.

[Katarzyna]

wow, I wish I had the kind of money people spend on pro am competitions.. That's a lot of lessons.. or a REALLY NICE DRESS :)

[tuftufwang]

How many dances are you doing if your entry fees are only $300? My competition costs are usually around $2600, but I am doing a lot of entries, so the entry fees part is a lot bigger, last time it was $1500.
I usually do 5 singles and one scholarship. You may be doing a lot more entries if your fees total $1500. I think entry fees are fairly standard + or - $5-$10.

[Laura]

I usually do five entries plus the Scholarship for my division. Based on what is customary in my area, at $35 per single dance, and $110 per scholarship, and about another $40 for tickets to get student and the teacher into the ballroom, that's $325 for entry fees. Then, at $40 per dance (some local teachers charge less, some more, but that seems to be a normal rate), that's another $400 for the teacher's fee for the day. So, where I live, people can do a local comp for about $725. That's not cheap, but it is what it is. Some comps only charge $25 per entry and $95 per scholarship, and some teachers charge a $20 per dance or a $100-$200 flat fee, but some comps charge $65 per dance and some teachers charge a $1500-$5000 flat fee. It all really depends, as you can see!

Out-of-town comps that I've gone to over the years cost about the same as the local examples I gave, but of course one has to add in their travel expenses and a share of their teacher's expenses. The nice thing if a teacher has several students is not only are there more people to split the teacher's expenses with, but there are also potential roommates to help cut down on one's own hotel expenses with.

[JANATHOME]

You dont say how many entries was figured in with that $2,500 estimate. That is what is going to drive your cost up or down more than anything else.

I take lesson both from an independent instructor, and from a franchise. So, I/we do have the opportunity to compete at closed franchise comps. When we do compete at a FA event we still control our costs. We know what the entry costs are, the hotel costs, ect.... We never purchase a meal plans(very expensive). We have found that franchised comps are more expensive, but not over the top more expensive. (Again, excluded USABDA comps)

To give you an idea, last FA comp we did 22 entries and it cost us about $900. At least at this studio there is no instructor fee, it is built into the entry fee... So I guess it could be comparable to the costs that Tuf posted. Sounds to me that the $2500 includes meals, shows, ect...

[mamboqueen]

IOut-of-town comps that I've gone to over the years cost about the same as the local examples I gave, but of course one has to add in their travel expenses and a share of their teacher's expenses. The nice thing if a teacher has several students is not only are there more people to split the teacher's expenses with, but there are also potential roommates to help cut down on one's own hotel expenses with.

It really pays to fully research airfares, too. For instance, in August I got a 2-day special from Airtrain to go to Atlanta R/T for $218. A day before or a day after and it would have been $300. I'm constantly checking fares.

[Laura]

wow, I wish I had the kind of money people spend on pro am competitions.. That's a lot of lessons.. or a REALLY NICE DRESS :)
That's why I make my own dresses...the money I save by making my own goes quite a way towarkd making the rest of the dancing work financially.

[tanya_the_dancer]

You dont say how many entries was figured in with that $2,500 estimate. That is what is going to drive your cost up or down more than anything else.

I take lesson both from an independent instructor, and from a franchise. So, I/we do have the opportunity to compete at closed franchise comps. When we do compete at a FA event we still control our costs. We know what the entry costs are, the hotel costs, ect.... We never purchase a meal plans(very expensive). We have found that franchised comps are more expensive, but not over the top more expensive. (Again, excluded USABDA comps)

To give you an idea, last FA comp we did 22 entries and it cost us about $900. At least at this studio there is no instructor fee, it is built into the entry fee... So I guess it could be comparable to the costs that Tuf posted. Sounds to me that the $2500 includes meals, shows, ect...

Last time I did 26 single dances plus 2 scholarships, it was about $1000 in entry fees.

I compete in smooth/standard. I've never done franchised comps, so I don't know how they differ from pro-am comps like Heart of America, or different Starballs.

[Katarzyna]

you are a smart lady Laura :)

[Laura]

Last time I did 26 single dances plus 2 scholarships, it was about $1000 in entry fees.
I'm just curious -- why so many events? Obviously the cost per event isn't very high based on what you said, but I just never got how someone could do that many.

Well, I guess maybe it's not that many after all -- it works out to 13 single dances per scholarship. I know a lot of people who do 10 single dances per scholarship.

I do suggest, though, when people remark on how expensive Pro/Am is, that they pick one style and focus on it -- saves money on lessons, entry fees, and costumes.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I'm just curious -- why so many events? Obviously the cost per event isn't very high based on what you said, but I just never got how someone could do that many.

Well, I guess maybe it's not that many after all -- it works out to 13 single dances per scholarship. I know a lot of people who do 10 single dances per scholarship.

I do suggest, though, when people remark on how expensive Pro/Am is, that they pick one style and focus on it -- saves money on lessons, entry fees, and costumes.

I do smooth and standard, and I like to do at least 2 of each dance. My teacher charges a flat fee per day, no matter how many dances I do, so I might as well dance more.

[LatinDancer006]

$2500 without airfare???!!! Goodness gracious! How many days are you competing? Does this include hotel stay? That sure sounds quite high to me? My cost usually runs between $1000 to $1500 depending on the location. Here's the breakdown (non-franchise):

my airfare - $230-$300
hotel stay (2 nts) - $250-$350
fees to instructor - $500 (he usually brings 3 students so his expenses are equally divided)
entry fees - $260-$300

On second thought, maybe your cost is a lot higher if your instructor dances with you only, which means that you have shoulder the entire cost.

I think $2,500 was the price for the AM Dance-O-Rama in Costa Mesa in June. Though I'm not sure if that's the final figure. The price goes down as more students sign up for it. I believe that price was for an instructor who had about six amature dancers. That price pays for the instructor, entry fees for 4 dances, and dinner/show...oh yeah and the trophies/plaques too. Hotels, airfare, transportation fees, etc...are you responsibility.

[jschaab]

Number of days and number of other students attending seem to be the two major cost modifiers for me. Number of events only seems to make a substantial difference in that it can imply more days.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Just wondering one thing about franchises. I was told that sometimes franchise studios would hold a student back on low levels for as long as they can. The reason for that (again, as I was told) was that if the student is working on a high-level stuff and his (or her) teacher leaves there might be no one else qualified to work with that student. So does this sort of thing (holding back) happen often?

[tuftufwang]

Hi B. Smith,

I'm glad you've joined the discussion, keeping this from becoming one-sided. You make some great points. Let me put some of them into my own words:
1. Franchises have been a major force in bringing ballroom dancing to the masses.
2. A contract also makes certain promises to the student to help keep the studio honest.
3. Just because some frachises aren't well run, that doesn't make all franchises bad. And folks, there are some awesome franchise studios out there!
4. In the US, I would be willing to bet that at least 75% the top competitors received training at a franchise.

B. Smith, people are not required to reveal their identity, but they may if they wish. Concerning liability, there have been cases of people being sued for making posts on forums. However, the forums themselves have been protected from liabilty in recent court judgements.

I think it's okay for someone to say something like, "I felt I was misled at an Arthur Murray studio", but not "The Arthur Murray Studio at 123 Main Street is running a scam on every student that walks through the door." If we noticed such a post that was specific to one studio, it would be edited or deleted.

Once again, I want to emphasize there are some wonderful Fred Astaire and Arthur Murray studios out there and there are also some terrible fly-by-night independant studios out there.
DanceMentor,

I am slightly concerned that people participating on this forum have been sued for comments possibly ranging from slanderous to slightly negative. Not sure what was the past history that involved law suits but do you think that past incidents have limited the freedom of expression a little here? If so, it is a pity that some people are unable to share their experiences for the benefit of others who may be able to glean valuable insight from other people's stories.

DF appears to be one of the more conservative forums I've visited, which is nice in a way because you read less BS. I guess my main question is this: should people posting exercise extra caution?

[love2swing]

Just wondering one thing about franchises. I was told that sometimes franchise studios would hold a student back on low levels for as long as they can. The reason for that (again, as I was told) was that if the student is working on a high-level stuff and his (or her) teacher leaves there might be no one else qualified to work with that student. So does this sort of thing (holding back) happen often?

You can't qualify all franchises or independents into one broad category like this. I worked for a franchise studio for a number of years, just recently moving on as I had lost the passion to teach, and we never did anything like this. I have posted about my experiences in several other threads, and my franchise was a dream to work for or take lessons from. I don't think anyone would ever intentionally hold someone back, franchise or not. That's bad business all around. People will find out about it, get angry, and leave.

What I have found is that my former students, when they first start, think that if they can get their feet to stumble through the steps in a manner that sort of resembles what they are supposed to be doing, they think they have it and want to move on to bigger and better things. Well, I know that they don't have it, it doesn't look good, and that they won't be able to lead or follow it the way they do the move currently, so I have to find nice ways of saying all these things to get them to practice and do the move properly from footwork to leading, following, style, etc. Perhaps people think that if their instructors aren't teaching them the flashy moves they are being held back, when in reality it is because the instructors are trying to get the moves being taught to them to be presentable and dance-able.

[SDsalsaguy]

DanceMentor,

I am slightly concerned that people participating on this forum have been sued for comments possibly ranging from slanderous to slightly negative. Not sure what was the past history that involved law suits but do you think that past incidents have limited the freedom of expression a little here? If so, it is a pity that some people are unable to share their experiences for the benefit of others who may be able to glean valuable insight from other people's stories.

DF appears to be one of the more conservative forums I've visited, which is nice in a way because you read less BS. I guess my main question is this: should people posting exercise extra caution?
TufTuf,

No one has been sued for comments made on DF. If you look at DM's original post his comment was that people have been sued for comments made on forums, not on this forum. Part of the issue, of course, is what someone can be sued for and, in court, what the finding would be. The implication for this is that I don't think people need to be concerned about what they say, even when very negative, if it can be substantiated and backed up with specific and concrete evidence. The general thinking along these lines being that a it can't be slander, etc., if it is fact.

The implications for posting is that you can describe your own experience -- positive or negative -- as long as it is done respectfully and without making defamatory declarations. As always the purpose of the DF is to provide quality information about dance, and this includes negative reviews as well as positive ones, and not just to gossip. I think that if people use that as a guideline, they should be able to post whatever they want without too much concern (although I am not a lawyer and in no way claim to be qualified to offer legal advice).

Hope that helps, at least a bit,

Jonathan

[SDsalsaguy]

You can't qualify all franchises or independents into one broad category like this. I worked for a franchise studio for a number of years, just recently moving on as I had lost the passion to teach, and we never did anything like this. I have posted about my experiences in several other threads, and my franchise was a dream to work for or take lessons from. I don't think anyone would ever intentionally hold someone back, franchise or not. That's bad business all around. People will find out about it, get angry, and leave.
I'll have to agree and disagree with you here l2s. As far as agreeing, I couldn't agree more that franchises & independents cannot just be considered as uniform categories. I've been to a franchise studio that I consider the best run and with the gretest value of any studio I've seen, just as I've also been to a franchise studio (same franchise by the way) that I consider the most unethical of any studio I've ever seen. In the same vein, I haven't seen a single practice in a franchise studio--good or bad--that I haven't seen the counterpart to in an independent studio.

As far as disagreeing, my personal experience and my interview data suggest that students do, at times, get deliberately held back. This isn;t at all franchises and, in fact, I think it is just as common at all studios with staff (vs. independent) instructors, franchise or not. So no, I don't think this is a franchise practice per se, but yes, it does happen in franchise studios.

[Chris Stratton]

In the US, I would be willing to bet that at least 75% the top competitors received training at a franchise.

Well you are wrong in terms of any meaningful training... today well over half of the top few rounds of competitors come from a short list of independent studios in New York City and its NJ suburbs...

Also, when strong competitors or competition trainers are based out of franchises, their efforts in that direction tend to be entirely independent of the franchise program - as far as they are concerned for their noteworthy activities, it's just an available floor to teach or practice on. Similarly, strong competition efforts in independent studios usually bear only distant connection to any group or walk-in programs offered in that location.

[SDsalsaguy]

Well you are wrong in terms of any meaningful training... today well over half of the top few rounds of competitors come from a handful of independent studios in New York City and its NJ suburbs...
True, but if we look at the typical judging panels in the US, then yes, many have franchise related backgrounds.

[tanya_the_dancer]

As far as disagreeing, my personal experience and my interview data suggest that students do, at times, get deliberately held back. This isn;t at all franchises and, in fact, I think it is just as common at all studios with staff (vs. independent) instructors, franchise or not. So no, I don't think this is a franchise practice per se, but yes, it does happen in franchise studios.

Maybe that's what it is. I heard the comment about holding back from a pro btw. My personal experience involves (in that order) independent teacher, not-so-good studio, independent again (I followed my teacher when he left the not-so-good one) and a really good one.

[SDsalsaguy]

Maybe that's what it is. I heard the comment about holding back from a pro btw. My personal experience involves (in that order) independent teacher, not-so-good studio, independent again (I followed my teacher when he left the not-so-good one) and a really good one.
Yes, I've been told it as a student and during my research from pros as well.

As a student I was told by one teacher that I couldn;t take "x" group class since I hadn't purchased that level package yet. Note, not because I wasn't ready or at the right level! :roll:

More to the point though, I've done interviews with pros who have told me that there managers have been upset with them for giving the student too much information... not too much as in too much for the student to take in/their level, but too much as in "what are you going to do when you run out of stuff to teach them" (as quoted to me in an interview).

[Chris Stratton]

True, but if we look at the typical judging panels in the US, then yes, many have franchise related backgrounds.

In terms of training, this is generally true only in reflecting practices from the past (though most of your big names then ventured overseas for their real training) In terms of business, many do own franchise studios, yes, because the pros cannot concentrate in a few cities the way the amateur & pro competitors do, and the majority of business across the country is franchise-style if not literally franchises.

[SDsalsaguy]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these people are simply products of the franchise systems, but many of the top people today (as in coaches and judges) who grew up in the US first got started with ballroom through the franchises. That's just a simple matter of history and, to discount it, ignores a major contribution that did take place.

[Laura]

Just wondering one thing about franchises. I was told that sometimes franchise studios would hold a student back on low levels for as long as they can. The reason for that (again, as I was told) was that if the student is working on a high-level stuff and his (or her) teacher leaves there might be no one else qualified to work with that student. So does this sort of thing (holding back) happen often?
I've heard this story, but the opposite happened to me. I was dancing Bronze at a franchise with a *very* good teacher (went on to become an NDCA national pro champion). He left the studio, and they switched me to someone new (who went on to become an NDCA national rising star champion). When they switched me, they told the new teacher that he would be teaching me Gold. I don't know their reasons for this....I quit dancing shortly thereafter for 3 1/2 years, and when I came back I started all over again at Bronze, and it took me quite some time before I was really a Gold level dancer. So, based on that, I feel that when the old franchise said to move me up that it was just a "social promotion" and didn't really mean I was at that or ready for that level.

[Laura]

Perhaps people think that if their instructors aren't teaching them the flashy moves they are being held back, when in reality it is because the instructors are trying to get the moves being taught to them to be presentable and dance-able.
I totally agree with you on this. I can imagine that many people go through a "the steps make the dancer" phase at one time or another when they are a beginner -- for some people that phase is very short, and lasts a lesson or two. For others, it lasts a lot longer, and leads to claims of being "held back."

[saludas]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these people are simply products of the franchise systems, but many of the top people today (as in coaches and judges) who grew up in the US first got started with ballroom through the franchises. That's just a simple matter of history and, to discount it, ignores a major contribution that did take place.


It's a matter of economics, not dance quality - franchises offer jobs.

[SDsalsaguy]

It's a matter of economics, not dance quality - franchises offer jobs.
Yes, they do. And without those jobs many of today's coaches and judges would have never made a life out of ballroom dancing.

[Paul F]

I have been reading this forum off and on for some time. All very interesting. This thread especially.
I was actually contacted by the Fred Astaire organisation a few weeks ago to ask if I had ever considered training and working in the States (New England area) - I currently live and dance in London, UK. At first I just dismissed it as I knew nothing about the company or indeed the region.

The trouble is I then went and started thinking !

I have been dancing in multiple disciplines for about 10 years now with about 5 years training and competing in standard and latin. I have been teaching dance (swing+salsa) for about 2 and a half years to classes ranging from 1 to 600 people. The reason I started thinking is because I genuinely enjoy teaching. I get so much from it. Couple that with the fact that dance is pretty much all I do, although I do have a day job, it started to sound tempting.

The trouble is it is such a huge move. Firstly I would have to take a pretty drastic pay cut to teach for them. I know you cannot do strict comparisons between economies as there are so many factors to consider but their base, guaranteed pay is minimal. (not counting tax I would be about $650 per week worse off on base pay alone). They do suggest you can escalate that quite quickly but even so its worrying. I am perfectly willing to take a pay cut if it means doing something I love but is it wise? Unfortunately I have not been able to find out the rules about how you increase your pay.

Secondly, it looks like I would be tied into a contract of 12:30pm until 10pm Monday to Friday. That would pretty much eliminate some of the other benefits I would like with moving to the states i.e. I dance a lot of West Coast Swing. This would be the ideal opportunity to get lots more WCS events in without having to spend a fortune travelling over from the UK for coaching. Finishing at 10pm would mean, during the week, I wouldnt be able to do much at all.

I guess the reason I am writing this is to see if anyone can convince me it is the right thing to do. I really want to do it but without knowing important things like how much income tax you pay, how expensive it is to live there etc. it is such an impossible decision. I cant seem to get a straight answer to these questions online.
I like the idea of a franchised chain. Many people may not but I have worked for one before and the balance of independance and head office backup is a powerful combination. I understand these companies target beginner/intermediate dancers as thats where the money is but I dont mind that. The sheer joy I have seen on peoples faces when they discover something like dance is worth it's weight in gold. It would also be a great benefit if I ever wanted to run a studio in the future as far as I can see.

I just dont know. I don’t suppose there is anyone on here i could possibly talk to via private messages that may have experience in this is there?

Sorry to bother you all with my situation.

[mamboqueen]

You're not bothering anyone, Paul.

I can't speak to how to make your mind up about money vs. doing something you truly love to do (although my inclination is to do what makes you happy).

New England, depending on where you go, is a fairly expensive part of the country to live in, housing-wise, car insurance-wise, tax-wise. Maybe you could hook up with some other teachers that are already here? They'd probably be your best resource for the expense involved in the transition.

You can pretty much count on Uncle Sam taking about 30% of your pay. You may get some back, depending on deductions, but that's generally what you're looking at.

[Chris Stratton]

Paul, the thing to keep in mind is that the franchise systems aren't uniform at all. What really matters is the person running the specific studio you end up working at - you would need to interview with them before making your decision, and be sure that anything you sign specifies that is where you will be working. Also think about what the real bargain in the contract is... it seems like you are already have a lot of training, so chances are what is being offered is immigration/work permission papers, in return for some period of commitment on your part? If you are serious about this, I'd highly recommend making a research trip before making a decision - ideally you will want to talk to "imports" both hosted by studios, and also those working more independently. Also, if you plan to be a active as a professional competitor at a high level, you'll need to think about where you will go for coaching. Travel to the studio of one of the handful of international-class coaches in the US? Back to England a few times a year? The expense and opportunities of that need to be factored in too.

[mamboqueen]

And fwiw, good male teachers are in HIGH demand in New England. Like really *HIGH*

[little_mouse]

Paul, since you would be moving from one continent to another, don't forget to factor in the cost of all the new electrical stuff you'll need. Are they making a contribution towards that? New shaver, new stereo, new coffee maker, new tv, new power adapters for everything, and so much more...

[mamboqueen]

Paul, since you would be moving from one continent to another, don't forget to factor in the cost of all the new electrical stuff you'll need. Are they making a contribution towards that? New shaver, new stereo, new coffee maker, new tv, new power adapters for everything, and so much more...

Don't adaptors work?

[little_mouse]

Depends on the voltage of the equipment. If it's old stuff, may not work. Also, DVD/VHS players would be land specific (PAL vs. NTSC)

[tangotime]

Guess i am probably the only one who has gone thru the same " system " and, done exactly what you are contemplating, thats reading this post . 20 plus yrs in the u.k. system before i made the same choice.Was the best thing I ever did for my dance career. Will not bore you with all the details,; suffice it to say, it will provide you with more scope and opportunity in more areas than I can begin to tell you about ( apart from the dance side ) I think I know which school you are considering , as they are always looking for staff. If you put aside the immediate reduction in pay, you will, all things being equal, do quite well financially . the standard of living , is so much higher and half as cheap !! I spent over 40yrs in the amer. dance community, chain and independant . You will not be the first, and you will not be the last of a long line. remember, if you dont like like it , that plane flys both ways !!

[tanya_the_dancer]

Paul, since you would be moving from one continent to another, don't forget to factor in the cost of all the new electrical stuff you'll need. Are they making a contribution towards that? New shaver, new stereo, new coffee maker, new tv, new power adapters for everything, and so much more...

All of this electrical stuff is so cheap, it's not worth moving it across the Atlantic. You'd be better off selling it there and buying new appliances here.

[gingerbread]

how long woulkd the contract be for? One year? ARe you sure they won't make you work week-ends by attending parties. Can you find out howmuch you get for private lessons? If it's just one year, you should bite the bullet because you you are known youi can leave for an independent studio in the area and make "real" money. But yes, yoiu should come and meet the head of the stuio first. Of course they will be charming, that's their job, and that may not tell you anything, but if you hang around and observe for a day, maybe you'll sense if the other teachers are happy or not.
If they get you working papers, it's an adventure. why NOT do it? If you don't like it, you can always go back. Will you be looking for a partner to compete with or are you only interested in a teaching career?

[pygmalion]

I wondered about the immigration part of it? FA and AMI sponsor their teachers with the INS? Just curious. :cool:

[tangotime]

all work permits are secured by franchisee, and contracts are usually for one yr. Plus they will put you into an appart. for one month and guarantee you a base salary plus air fare ( one way ) s.o.p.

[Me]

Mississippi state law prohibits studios from selling dance packages beyond a very low cap level. I can't get any details, but from what I've heard, some BAD BAD STUFF went down in our state with some very crookedly run franchise schools about ten or fifteen years ago. It was… SO BAD, that the state made laws specific to ballroom schools regarding what they can charge.

The result of this is, of course, we have no franchise schools in our state. It has really killed the growth of ballroom in this area. Nobody wants to teach here! The people who do teach here are, for the most part, terrible, as they have no competition. (We do have some very talented individuals in the Gulfport/Biloxi area.) The only professional we have within a 100 mile radius of our city has made it his business to sue all certified professionals south of our city. Nobody has stopped him.

I’m very bummed. If a franchise were free to open in this area, it would have the muscle to fight any trouble this private business would give it.

Anyway, I'll never understand why Mississippi instituted that law. Could it have been THAT bad? I think if people are stupid enough to gamble away their entire life's earnings at the casinos in Gulfport and Biloxi, they should be equally free to blow it all on dance lessons. Rather than sit on a chair and drink free watered down booze and breathe in second hand cigarette smoke, they could be... DANCING!

[pygmalion]

Florida, where I used to live, had similar laws. From what I've heard, the stuff that happened was, as you say, BAD. In capital letters.

There's an old, old (like three years old) thread that spells some of it out, but, for the life of me, I'll never remember what it was called. Hmm. :?

[tanya_the_dancer]

Mississippi state law prohibits studios from selling dance packages beyond a very low cap level. I can't get any details, but from what I've heard, some BAD BAD STUFF went down in our state with some very crookedly run franchise schools about ten or fifteen years ago. It was… SO BAD, that the state made laws specific to ballroom schools regarding what they can charge.

The result of this is, of course, we have no franchise schools in our state. It has really killed the growth of ballroom in this area. Nobody wants to teach here! The people who do teach here are, for the most part, terrible, as they have no competition. (We do have some very talented individuals in the Gulfport/Biloxi area.) The only professional we have within a 100 mile radius of our city has made it his business to sue all certified professionals south of our city. Nobody has stopped him.

I’m very bummed. If a franchise were free to open in this area, it would have the muscle to fight any trouble this private business would give it.

Anyway, I'll never understand why Mississippi instituted that law. Could it have been THAT bad? I think if people are stupid enough to gamble away their entire life's earnings at the casinos in Gulfport and Biloxi, they should be equally free to blow it all on dance lessons. Rather than sit on a chair and drink free watered down booze and breathe in second hand cigarette smoke, they could be... DANCING!

I heard something similar about Chicago area. A friend of mine used to live there 15-20 years ago when it all happened. Basically what she told me and how I understood it, is that some studios were targeting seniors and were selling such large packages to them that there was no way those people could possibly use all those lessons before they died. She said there was a huge scandal, well publicized, and as a result of it a lot of studios in Chicago area closed.

[pygmalion]

And, IIRC, there are actual Federal Trade Commission guidelines for dance studios as a result. They're here, in DF, somewhere. The things that are prohibited in the FTC document give a pretty good idea of some of the tactics that were used back then, IIRC.

But again, it's an old, old thread. Probably quicker to just google and find it again.

[SPratt74]

This is such an interesting thread. I for one pulled this up under the search engine last week. I couldn't find it again. I don't know if someone pulled it up or not, but thanks! I wanted to finish reading the responses!

[Chris Stratton]

Mississippi state law prohibits studios from selling dance packages beyond a very low cap level. I can't get any details, but from what I've heard, some BAD BAD STUFF went down in our state with some very crookedly run franchise schools about ten or fifteen years ago. It was… SO BAD, that the state made laws specific to ballroom schools regarding what they can charge.

The result of this is, of course, we have no franchise schools in our state. It has really killed the growth of ballroom in this area. Nobody wants to teach here! The people who do teach here are, for the most part, terrible, as they have no competition.

I would think that such laws would only keep away the disreputable businesses, and to some extent the dancing as entertainment businesses, but not high skilled teachers offering dancing as serious study (who don't tend to offer very large packages if they offer them at all). Something else must be keeping them away.

Could be that such approaches to ballroom need some ambient support from the presence of a larger dance world, less reputable parts and all. (A depressing conclusion if it's true)

Or, it could be that such teachers gravitate towards major cultural cities with an international flavor - and specifically the flavor of parts of the world where ballroom is a bigger deal. (Which is only a useful discovery if moving is an option)

[tanya_the_dancer]

I would think that such laws would only keep away the disreputable businesses, and to some extent the dancing as entertainment businesses, but not high skilled teachers offering dancing as serious study (who don't tend to offer very large packages if they offer them at all). Something else must be keeping them away.

Could be that such approaches to ballroom need some ambient support from the presence of a larger dance world, less reputable parts and all. (A depressing conclusion if it's true)

Or, it could be that such teachers gravitate towards major cultural cities with an international flavor - and specifically the flavor of parts of the world where ballroom is a bigger deal. (Which is only a useful discovery if moving is an option)

Your depressing conclusion is probably right. Think about it this way. In the area where you take lessons, how many people are really serious ballroom students, in terms of percentage of local dancing population? And how many more are the one-lesson-per-week couples? The latter ones are the ones who are the critical mass and they're also the ones attracted to nice studios and packages. So if the state laws make it difficult to open a nice studio and sell packages to the critical mass, then there will be no place where skilled teachers can teach serious students, especially in less populated areas like Mississippi, where there not as many people interested in dance as in places like NYC.

[Chris Stratton]

The competitively interesting teachers do not depend on the ability to sell packages, or in a place like NYC even on studios that rely on package sales. The question would then be if some of their students who are also teachers depend on package sales. I think in reality the competitive part of the NY scene is funded by having a student population who is interested enough to buy without heavy salesmanship - competitors, and social students from ethnic communities that stereotypically have money to spend and enough interest not to need to be sold on the idea. That is a presumably unique feature of large cities with specific cultural flavors.

[tanya_the_dancer]

The competitively interesting teachers do not depend on the ability to sell packages, or in a place like NYC even on studios that rely on package sales. The question would then be if some of their students who are also teachers depend on package sales. I think in reality the competitive part of the NY scene is funded by having a student population who is interested enough to buy without heavy salesmanship - competitors, and social students from ethnic communities that stereotypically have money to spend and enough interest not to need to be sold on the idea. That is a presumably unique feature of large cities with specific cultural flavors.

Unfortunately NYC is not in sync with the rest of the country.

[Chris Stratton]

Unfortunately NYC is not in sync with the rest of the country.

Unfortunately for ballroom dancing the rest of the country is not in sync with NYC.

What I mean is that NYC (and to some degree a few other cities) has the sort of dance options it has because it can support them. A location that can't won't - it's not about the laws, its about having enough interested people close enough together. And even in a city this big, the competitive dance world is very small.

[Paul F]

how long woulkd the contract be for? One year? ARe you sure they won't make you work week-ends by attending parties. Can you find out howmuch you get for private lessons? If it's just one year, you should bite the bullet because you you are known youi can leave for an independent studio in the area and make "real" money. But yes, yoiu should come and meet the head of the stuio first. Of course they will be charming, that's their job, and that may not tell you anything, but if you hang around and observe for a day, maybe you'll sense if the other teachers are happy or not.
If they get you working papers, it's an adventure. why NOT do it? If you don't like it, you can always go back. Will you be looking for a partner to compete with or are you only interested in a teaching career?

I want to thank everyone for responding to my post.

It looks like I may give it a go. Im going to come over, hopefully end of November, to meet studio owners and teachers.
They do sort out the work permits and provide accommodation for a few months which is good. The pay does start off low but it does sound like you can inrease it quite quickly if you are successful in retaining students. As for being tied into weekends, I would hope not as I have other dancing I would like to do but I assume there will be events etc. on at weekends.

I suppose, at the end of the day, if it didnt work out I could always go back to my job in IT.

All in all its very exciting.

[mamboqueen]

I want to thank everyone for responding to my post.

It looks like I may give it a go. Im going to come over, hopefully end of November, to meet studio owners and teachers.
They do sort out the work permits and provide accommodation for a few months which is good. The pay does start off low but it does sound like you can inrease it quite quickly if you are successful in retaining students. As for being tied into weekends, I would hope not as I have other dancing I would like to do but I assume there will be events etc. on at weekends.

I suppose, at the end of the day, if it didnt work out I could always go back to my job in IT.

All in all its very exciting.

Hey - congrats! Please keep us posted on your progress here. And you probably wouldn't have problems finding an IT job here if the dance teacher thing didn't pan out, but I'm guessing it will :)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Unfortunately for ballroom dancing the rest of the country is not in sync with NYC.

What I mean is that NYC (and to some degree a few other cities) has the sort of dance options it has because it can support them. A location that can't won't - it's not about the laws, its about having enough interested people close enough together. And even in a city this big, the competitive dance world is very small.

Hey Chris, I'm just wondering about one thing. Do you have any idea how big dance world is in NYC. I wonder if the percentage of total population holds. For example as far as I know, St. Louis (1.1 ml people or so) has a ballroom dancer organization which is about 400 people big. Our town is about 10 times smaller and its ballroom community is proportionally smaller - about 40 people. So, NYC has about 8 ml people, right? Is its ballroom community about 8 times that of St. Louis?

[misswaltz]

Very nice post, SD, I always was shown and held that if you're looking to take lessons in any form of dance that the best learning comes from a variety of teachers and methods of teaching.

-FF

I agree with this statement that the best learning comes from a variety of teachers and methods.

I started salsa in clubs then ended up in a franchised studio, Fred Astaire, which was and still is great because they introduced me to many dances and things I would never have been introduced to otherwise. They also provide a means for practicing those elements with someone which isn't always available in independent studios. However, within the first few lessons my teacher seemed really put off when I mentioned other studios and since then I don't mention any other studio....just too scared too. However I have, since starting at Fred Astaire, explored and had private lessons with other instructors at other private studios. It was only in this way that I learnt that there is an American style and International style of ballroom dance. It was from one of these independent studio teachers that I learnt about the pulse in samba and other little details in Viennese waltz that Fred Astaire, for whatever reason, chose not to show me at that time dispite the questions I asked.

It's been a year now at Fred Astaire and they are a wonderful bunch and teach what they know wonderfully on their schedule but I find that if I want questions answered or if I'm curious about something, I have to go elsewhere to get my answers addressed otherwise Fred Astaire takes their time and my money, before getting around the addressing my questions.

I've recently asked them about Lindy Hop and while they claim to teach it they're teaching me something that's....well, it's just not Lindy Hop. I know this because I've taken some group lessons in Lindy Hop from a private place and have been to the local swing society dances and Fred Astaire's Lindy Hop just isn't the same. It's still fun though! :p

[tangotime]

[quote=misswaltz;452661]I agree with this statement that the best learning comes from a variety of teachers and methods.

Interesting perspective,

A world class coach, reknowned for his own and his students successes . was diametrically opposed to the idea of more than one teacher / coach.

His name ? -- Len Scrivener . His reasons are many fold , and I suppose when you are at that level, his statement may be difficult to disagree with .

Len had a system in place, which produced numerous champions. His wife Nellie, took all the beginners and Len worked with the competitive students.

There are of course, other top flight teachers, that have similar reputations for developing their own " stable " of champs.

Have witnessed this " tandem " teaching , with other world class couples . It seems to work very well .
.
I am not of course making reference to world class coaches that visit for a day . Quite obviously, if you are not in a market where top level instruction is available on a daily basis , then yes, take advantage of those that pass thru.

I do realise , there are many differing viewpoints ( particularly at comp. level ) to be heard. I also believe that can lead to a lot of confusion and indecision .

[fascination]

I went back all the way to th OP here and I want to be careful in how I say this b/c I don't in anyway mean to overgeneralize b/c I don't think this is exclusive to franchises, though I am sure that the decorating budget certainly does....but as far as enthusiasm goes, I would have to say that my observation would be that most dancers who are new, or have never been challenged to take their dancing to the next level...are very very enthusiatic and it is a joy to watch but I find that it is rarely retained once a dancer has more difficult tasks to execute, whether or not that is the reason that there is more enjoyment at a franchise comp or not isn't something I can speak to...but I know that the only comp at which I had that much enthusiam was the one wherein I thought I had my pattern in order and I looked good and that was all there was all there was to worry about and I thought I was fabulous...I would liken it to a honeymoon... while it was great, I really had no idea what really needed to happen next....I am grateful for this thread as it is a reminder to me of what to try to retain about why I dance....certainly, I have far more to be excited about now than I did when I actually had that sort of enthusiasm

[Joe]

However, within the first few lessons my teacher seemed really put off when I mentioned other studios
Not surprising...

[fascination]

I would run from any studio that couldn't handle my getting educated on my options....if you have a good product you don't need to keep your students in the dark...franchise or not

[LucyDiamond]

I would run from any studio that couldn't handle my getting educated on my options....if you have a good product you don't need to keep your students in the dark...franchise or not
I agree totally. From the start of my dancing, I have always studied with more than one teacher (this has nothing to do with Franchises) and all my teachers know this about me. It seems that no matter who I take lessons from, I always learn something from that teacher and I love learning. Right now, I'm studying with 2 teachers which I found (through trial and error) is about right for me. There was a time when I was studying with 3 (while also taking tap group lessons) and I get myself so confused I had to drop one, which was something I did NOT like doing because I liked all my teachers at the time. Another good thing, for me, that has evolved from taking lessons with so many people is that I'm still in contact with all the teacher's I've studied with and can go back to any of them should thing not work out with my current teachers.

[etp777]

Definitely shy away from any studio that can't bear mention of other studios (the only studio I hesitate to mention at mine is the other new FA, as owners hired away best teacher from my studio to manage that new one :) ).

But personally, misswaltz, what caused more concern in your post, at least to me, was the fact that you don't feel you can have questions answered at your studio. I can see, in a business sense, why one studio might not want to talk about other studios. They're competitors. Don't agree with it, but can understand it. But if you're not getting questions answered, then FA, either that studio as a whole (not the chain, I love my FA ;) ), or your teacher in particular, is not doing their job. You're paying them not just to walk you through a syllabus, but to answer questions. There's no way you can improve and really learn without asking questions. I'll ask a question in the middle of teacher and I dancing and she'll either answer as we continue to dance, or if necessary, we'll stop right there in middle of what we're doing so she can demonstrate, or more fully answer, whatever. Of course, i do try to ask the questions when they're appropriate (asked about the FA bronze 2 yesterday while I was in middle of doing it), and sometimes she might say she'll answer it in a fwe minutes, if she was jsut in middle of correcting something, but the questions are always answered, and she's always willing to spend time reexplaining if I didn't get answer first time. That's true of all of the teachers at my studio, with one possible exception, and I think that should always be true of any type of lessons, dance, martial arts, whatever.

[Tesa]

Hi everybody :D

I notice the last post in this thread was in 2007, so I hope I can still get some input. First of all, I'm so excited to have found this forum. As a newcomer to ballroom dancing, I had a million questions and luckily this forum answered many of them. I've only been dancing for a month, at my local AM studio where I took the introductory package (4 private lessons, 2 group lessons, 2 parties). Needless to say, I fell in love with gliding across that beautiful polished floor and feel that it is one of my life callings (unfortunately I'm one of those overly passionate people who want to excel in everything...) ;). After my introductory package, I had the "talk" with my instructor where the next step, the social ease package, felt like a bucket of ice water. I was a bit dumbfounded at the time at the astronomical price (yes, I'm a starving student like many out there trying to somehow live life on a dime).

From reading the many opinions on this forum, I gathered that franchises are on average more expensive than independent studios and that each franchise varies in terms of the quality of instruction. So how much is too much? And what is the best course of action for a beginner in ballroom dancing? I am a perfectionist by nature and would like to compete eventually. The deal I was offered at AM was composed of dance units (one unit = one private plus all group lessons and parties), with one unit setting me back at around $140.00. They prefer I prepay a minimum of 10 units in advance. I guess I should have asked at the time how much the private lessons are alone, and is it worth taking only private lessons and foregoing the group ones... Also, if you take 2 private lessons a week, does that mean that your group lessons and parties only last as long as your private ones?

Sigh, I guess I'm a bit confused as to what I should do and if it's possible to lower the price at all. The other thing that peeved me a bit was trying to get information on other franchise studios in the area. I called FA and asked them how much their private lessons cost. The lady on the phone just wouldn't give me a straight answer and insisted that I should come in for my free lesson at the end of which I could discuss a "plan" with my instructor. Is this standard practice?

Lastly, how do I go about finding a good independent studio? And does the independent studio offer any sort of social party equivalent or is it strictly private lessons with your instructor? How do I know if my instructor is qualified? I'm a bit squeamish about asking them for their qualifications... On a side note, my instructor at AM is great, but I'm not nearly experienced enough to be able to tell the difference between a great instructor and an exceptional one. Is it just trial and error?

Thanks so much for any tips and comments!

Cheers:),
Tesa.

[dancinrina]

I just wanted to ask what people's opinions were on chain ballroom dancing schools like Arthur Murray, etc. Personally, I had a horrific experience with them and would like to know what more seasoned dancers think.

[etp777]

I know there are many people with strong opinions due to similar bad experiences, but that's also true of independent studios. There's no one answer, as every studio is unique, whether it's a chain school or an independent. I am extremely happy with my studio, which is an FA, but I also am not really impressed with several other studios in region (one FA, one AM, and one independent). And then there are altneratively a ton of other great studios I've dealt with, independent and FA (I've only ever been to the one AM, so can't judge any others). So it's really a matter of judging individual studios, just like judging individual teachers.

[fascination]

welcome to DF ...we have many many threads on this...if you care to peruse them they will provide you with a wealth of info...a summation would be that no one chain studio is like another...a fair number of folks have felt they were pricey and didn't like the way they operated, but quite a few others have expressed satisfaction... for the particulars, do a search using words like "chain studio"

[nucat78]

+1.

Some people love chains, others hate 'em. Everyone's situation is unique. I have an indy studio that I would never voluntarily leave, but I've never even been inside a chain.

[Easy]

It always depends on who's running it and who teaches there. They can be great or they can be mediocre. One downside is...you take lessons at a studio and you could be marrying the chain. They have pressure on them to attend a certain amount of chain events per year. This could result in them choosing what's best for them as opposed to what's best for you. Also, before I left the chain gang in 2001, their entry fees were close to double the price of most independent competitions. On the positive side, most chain teachers are very well trained in dance and in service :)

It wouldn't hurt to try a chain studio, and see for yourself what the experience is like. You can't take everyone's opinion...we all have different tastes. One person's heaven is another person's hell.


If you like burgers, you can always stop at a McDonald's for a quick fill, but if you have the time wouldn't you seek out the tastiest one served the way you like it in an atmoshpere you enjoy? It might be McDonald's, but you actually have to do some exploring.

[DanceMentor]

Chain studios often have a more organized program, from the syllabus, to the training program, to events with other studios in the chain. There are definitely some good chain studios, but it is very true that many have reported bad experiences, so you just have to do your research the best you can.

One problem that I often see with chains is there is somewhat of a maximum salary that is possible for the instructors in order for the business model to work. For example, maybe the students pay $80/hour for lessons, and the studio can afford a max salary of $45/hour.

Independent instructors have no maximum, and they get a greater percentage of the student's payment. For example, maybe the student pays $75, and the instructor earns $60 after paying $15 for the floor space. Also, the independent instructor can raise prices as demand increases. What you won't always get is a glamorous studio with great parties, and trips, etc. You will more likely just be buying the private instruction.

Chain and closed studios sometimes offer a better community structure, and many people like this aspect. Independent and open studios usually offer a higher level of instruction, but may lack the glamour and organization. So much can depend on the desires of the student.

[Standarddancer]

I've got a chance to read a contract between a chain studio and a foreign dancer teacher - very scary, they say they only pay something like $10 per hour for starting salary and they require minimum working hours to be at least 30 per week? maybe this contract is an outdated version a few years ago?

although they do say miminum garantee of salary to be $300 per week regardless if the teacher is booked or not, but $300 a week is like nothing...

they also restrict which dance competitions the dance teacher will compete for the coming year and all the required show dance for studios stated in the contract.

[tangotime]

I've got a chance to read a contract between a chain studio and a foreign dancer teacher - very scary, they say they only pay something like $10 per hour for starting salary and they require minimum working hours to be at least 30 per week? maybe this contract is an outdated version a few years ago?

although they do say miminum garantee of salary to be $300 per week regardless if the teacher is booked or not, but $300 a week is like nothing...

they also restrict which dance competitions the dance teacher will compete for the coming year and all the required show dance for studios stated in the contract.




Again.... it depends upon the studio... they are independantly owned, and have certain guidelines to follow.. pay structure is not normally one of them .
I do believe, however, by that hrly rate quoted, it is probably out of date ( I was paying that 25 yrs ago ! )

[L-Jay]

I've always disliked the 'hard-sell' to students. It seems like chains have a bad reputation of this but there are also independent studios who run like a chain and are focused on selling.

I understand the need for a studio to have students commit to programs but I don't agree with taking advantage of students who don't really have the money to pay so much. I've been to some selling studios and they tend to use a lot of 'used car seller' tactics to make their sales. I'm not saying that everyone does this - but practically all of the 'private lesson' chain-type studios that I've been in are 'hard-sellers'.

Back in Oz in the 90s there was a 1:7 ratio of paying teachers. The teacher would get $10 dollars from every lesson and the studio would get $70. Of course the teachers had a base of $200 - but you would have to teach 20 lessons a week for you to earn over your base. Crazy. Last I heard (5 years ago) the base rate had gone up to $350....lol.

[tangotime]

Crazy. Last I heard (5 years ago) the base rate had gone up to $350....lol.



Heres some perspective.. the one good side that seems to have escaped most ?.. they provide an entry into the profession for young adults, generally without any cost involved .

I cant even begin to count the world class dancers that evolved from chain schools, that, may NEVER have happened , if a fee for training was required .

As I have said, in the past I,ve worked for both " chains ", and yes , some were more than questionable ( primarily the management side ) .

One can only say.. speak as you find

[QPO]

Yes I agree with all the comments, you have to try before you buy. The only thing with Chain ones that I know of is that you have to buy a series of lessons at some considerable cost. Where as the local studios you pay when you go and not for a 10 week block. You have to do what makes you happy and want to dance.

[L-Jay]

Heres some perspective.. the one good side that seems to have escaped most ?.. they provide an entry into the profession for young adults, generally without any cost involved .

I cant even begin to count the world class dancers that evolved from chain schools, that, may NEVER have happened , if a fee for training was required .

As I have said, in the past I,ve worked for both " chains ", and yes , some were more than questionable ( primarily the management side ) .

One can only say.. speak as you find

Yes - however, it does mean that only 'young adults' can do this - most people older or who have family responsibility do not have a chance of learning to become a fulltime teacher at a chain studio because of the low wage. 40+ hours a week on below minimum wage makes it very difficult. The only people who seem to support their families are the managers and owners. So if you are not a young adult its near impossible to start a career in the profession with a chain.

[wooh]

Yes - however, it does mean that only 'young adults' can do this - most people older or who have family responsibility do not have a chance of learning to become a fulltime teacher at a chain studio because of the low wage. 40+ hours a week on below minimum wage makes it very difficult. The only people who seem to support their families are the managers and owners. So if you are not a young adult its near impossible to start a career in the profession with a chain.

I don't see it as a bad thing that you have to start on the bottom rungs of the ladder with it. After all, you do get a career training doing it. I make ok money in my line of work, but I have student loans to pay off. And $350 a week is better than I made working full-time while I went to school. It's certainly not worse than most other entry-level jobs requiring no previous experience.

[Joe]

I think you miss L-Jay's point. It's not that it's bad starting pay for someone fresh into the workforce. It's bad starting pay when you're not fresh into the workforce.

[tangotime]

Yes - however, it does mean that only 'young adults' can do this..
Not true

- most people older or who have family responsibility do not have a chance of learning to become a fulltime teacher at a chain studio because of the low wage...
There are many schools who have taken on " older " potential teachers, in fact, one of the Fla schools in which I coached, prefered them ! They usually become part time evening only people ,which is when one needs the capacity to handle the " traffic ". A win -win situation for both


40+ hours a week on below minimum wage makes it very difficult. The only people who seem to support their families are the managers and owners.

You are not allowed by law ( in the states ) to employ anyone below the min. wage. and you seem to ignore the fact that they have a guaranteed income, which is far beyond min. requirements ( in most schools ) until they are self sufficient .There are also sundry other supplements to their income within the studio confines .

So if you are not a young adult its near impossible to start a career in the profession with a chain.

Again.. as I stated .. not true.. its simply an individual choice based upon their abilty to sustain themselves UNTIL they are capable of producing sufficient income to suit THEIR needs .I cannot begin to tell you how many I personally have trained , that have gone on to excellent futures in the profession.

You seem to be under the impression that my profession is solely based upon the ability to "out " earn other comparable professions.
If that is ones motivation, then you should not enter same. ( actually, there is a chain school currently offering a $ 30,000 a yr teaching position.. do you know how many americans earn way below that ?? )

[wooh]

I think you miss L-Jay's point. It's not that it's bad starting pay for someone fresh into the workforce. It's bad starting pay when you're not fresh into the workforce.

That goes along with changing careers. If I decided I wanted to be a chef at the age of 40, they aren't going to pay me like they'd pay a chef with 20 years experience. Why should I expect different if I decide to become a dance instructor.

[Joe]

If you decide (by choice) to become a chef at 40 with a family to feed, your family should probably expect some very lean times.

[dancinrina]

I can completely appreciate the fact that the instructors don't get treated well but I was just very unhappy with the way that 2 different chain studios delt with me. First of all, they completely turned my boyfriend off of dancing - we came in, both of us, for an evaluation and "dance lesson" which basically turned out to be a sales pitch where they completely ignored my boyfriend and concentrated on me dishing out close to $500 a month to "get back in shape to compete" - which wasn't my goal at all. And the funny part is, when I asked them if there was anything cheaper that I could do, they said that there is, but it won't do me any good. To which I replied that I was a college student and couldn't afford to pay that much (that's about half of what I make a month and I still need to pay rent and bills). The "instructor's" reply was, and I qoute - "well maybe you should think about not comming back to dancing at all if you don't have the money to". The other studio was very similar in their dealings with me - they basically told me to get out after I said that I wasn't looking to spend that much money. Now, I know that lessons, especially private lessons are how professionals make money, but whatever happened to comeradery and empathy? I mean, when I used to do ballet, the school worked with me to figure out a payment plan and schedule that would work for me because they knew how important this was to me and a private ballroom studio I'm currently attending did the same. So, why couldn't a chain school do that? It made me feel like they couldn't care less about dancing and only wanted my money. :confused:

[wooh]

If you decide (by choice) to become a chef at 40 with a family to feed, your family should probably expect some very lean times.

As your family should expect if you decide (by choice) to become a dance instructor at 40.

[tangotime]

.


So, why couldn't a chain school do that? :confused:

You must have run into 2 schools that certainly do not represent the " norm ". And , as I said, there are some questionable ones .

Pretty much all schools will do " cartwheels " to assist you in a suitable financial arrangement..

[tangotime]

If you decide (by choice) to become a chef at 40 with a family to feed, your family should probably expect some very lean times.




AND some very lean meat !! ...:rolleyes:

[L-Jay]

I don't see it as a bad thing that you have to start on the bottom rungs of the ladder with it. After all, you do get a career training doing it. I make ok money in my line of work, but I have student loans to pay off. And $350 a week is better than I made working full-time while I went to school. It's certainly not worse than most other entry-level jobs requiring no previous experience.

Well, when you consider that the rest of the 'entry' level workers are getting the standard Federal Minimum weekly Wage rate of $543.78. - then yeah - you can see that it is not good when dance instructors only get $350 per week.

[L-Jay]

Not true


( actually, there is a chain school currently offering a $ 30,000 a yr teaching position.. do you know how many americans earn way below that ?? )


Ooops - well, I have been talking about Australian dollars - (until recently) you could get more for American dollars than Australian. I can not comment about the States but I have been commenting about the chain style studios in Australia.

[etp777]

I think we need to remember that we have posters from all over the world here, and that federal minimum wage is NOT the same everywhere. Current US federal minimum wage, where a lot of people are posting from, and comparing to, is $5.85, or $234/week. Then of course there are states that have their own higher wage, like here where it's $7.75 or $310/week. So looking at teither of those, $350 is definitely more than minimum wage. But for posters like L-Jay in Australian dollars,a nd others various places, the number $350 may not even reach poverty levels, much less minimum wage.

Of course, that doesn't even take into account cost of living differences even in areas of same country. Heh, or even just within a state.

[chica latina]

I don't like chain studios.... they seem too business oriented and some dont even have the quality instruction for the prices they charge...

[Larinda McRaven]

So do many independants I run into.

[L-Jay]

I can completely appreciate the fact that the instructors don't get treated well but I was just very unhappy with the way that 2 different chain studios delt with me. First of all, they completely turned my boyfriend off of dancing - we came in, both of us, for an evaluation and "dance lesson" which basically turned out to be a sales pitch where they completely ignored my boyfriend and concentrated on me dishing out close to $500 a month to "get back in shape to compete" - which wasn't my goal at all. And the funny part is, when I asked them if there was anything cheaper that I could do, they said that there is, but it won't do me any good. To which I replied that I was a college student and couldn't afford to pay that much (that's about half of what I make a month and I still need to pay rent and bills). The "instructor's" reply was, and I qoute - "well maybe you should think about not comming back to dancing at all if you don't have the money to". The other studio was very similar in their dealings with me - they basically told me to get out after I said that I wasn't looking to spend that much money. Now, I know that lessons, especially private lessons are how professionals make money, but whatever happened to comeradery and empathy? I mean, when I used to do ballet, the school worked with me to figure out a payment plan and schedule that would work for me because they knew how important this was to me and a private ballroom studio I'm currently attending did the same. So, why couldn't a chain school do that? It made me feel like they couldn't care less about dancing and only wanted my money. :confused:


This situation is so common it's not funny. I started out being a teacher in a chain studio and the things that I saw happen there would send chills up my spine. I had one student - a kind dear old man who needed a friend more than he needed dancing. He had bought a 6 lesson package. My manager was so 'hard-core' with me to sell him on another 30 lesson program but I just knew this student didn't have the money. I just kept trying to divert my manager (it was a little hard coz we had 'selling' meetings every week). I thought the situation had gone away but then I noticed the old man was booked in again. I found out my manager had pulled him into the studio when I wasn't there and sold him on the 30 lesson package - the student later told me he cashed in his life insurrance to get the money. I was so furious and felt so sorry for the student. I knew he bought those lessons so he could learn dance from me but I had to quit - my heart couldn't take it anymore.

A lot of emotions play when 'buying' dance - unfortunately some studios take advantage. But of course, not all studios are like this - we just got to make sure that the bad ones don't get the better of us. ;)

[etp777]

Pretty much any business where you ahve someone working at least partially on commission you face the likelihood of the hard sell/used car salesman tactics/pushy salespeople. Doesn't excuse it, and happy that I don't have that issue at my studio, and they're happy to work around what I can afford, but it's certainly always going to be a problem in any business model like that.

[Gorme]

It made me feel like they couldn't care less about dancing and only wanted my money. :confused:

You had a bad sampling of dance studios. It is true that they only wanted your money, but like any business, the customer must be treated with respect. If you don't have the money to buy the lessons they wanted to sell (usually 25), they could have arrange a way to introduce you to lessons at a lower amount. Some places promote a tiny amount of lessons at a discounted rate to hopefully get you interested in shelling out more cash when those lessons are up. Wherever you go, unless it's a college team, this kind of activity will require substantial income to support it.

[Throwaway Overshare]

If a studio is trying to sell you 25 lessons, the primary emphasis of their thoughts is on business rather than on dancing. If you want to be their customer, fine.

But if you want to be their student, find someone more dance-oriented. If you are dealing directly with an experienced teacher, they probably won't want to sell you a package of lessons right away, because they may not want to commit that much of their own time to you until they are sure working together will be a good idea. But in a studio setting they go ahead and sell because they can always assign you to whichever teacher is short on students if you turn out not be serious enough for their better teachers to spend time on.

[the_thunderbird52]

I just wanted to ask what people's opinions were on chain ballroom dancing schools like Arthur Murray, etc. Personally, I had a horrific experience with them and would like to know what more seasoned dancers think.

I've had mixed experiences. I find the instructors in many chain studios to be more like "used car salesmen". They try selling all the instruction they can. However, I have been to some chain studios that are much more professional, and care more about quality than quantity. The same could be said for independent studios. I have had the same mixed experiences with them as well.

I think the bottom line is this. You have to find a studio that provides instructors and an atmosphere that fit your personal style. I don't believe any one studio is a perfect fit for everyone.

What I do, is attend their "open dance" parties. It is usually there that i get a feel for the kind of people and instructors in the studio. I can then make a better decision on whether to proceed with some sort of "introductory lesson" or not.

My advise is to have some fun - attend some dance parties, and feel out the different studios in your area.

[Tinydancergirl]

If a studio is trying to sell you 25 lessons, the primary emphasis of their thoughts is on business rather than on dancing. If you want to be their customer, fine.

But if you want to be their student, find someone more dance-oriented. If you are dealing directly with an experienced teacher, they probably won't want to sell you a package of lessons right away, because they may not want to commit that much of their own time to you until they are sure working together will be a good idea. But in a studio setting they go ahead and sell because they can always assign you to whichever teacher is short on students if you turn out not be serious enough for their better teachers to spend time on.

The sad thing, is that so many European dancer teachers, who work for a chain, DESPISE having to hard sell dance lessons. They see it as demeaning, they are here to teach, not to sell, and resent chain owners pressuring them to sell, sell, sell. I have seen outright altercations between owner and intructor, and believe me, it's not pretty.

[Tinydancergirl]

I don't like chain studios.... they seem too business oriented and some dont even have the quality instruction for the prices they charge...

Too, too true. And sad. I have seen top notch world class instructors hired at the chain studios along with out-of shape newbies instructors and the price for a dance lesson is the same! Crazy!:rolleyes:
Tinydancergirl

[the_thunderbird52]

I've seen advertizements by chain studios that say:

"We need instructors. If you don't know how to dance, we'll teach you, then you can teach others."

I personally know of some "instructors" who were hired this way, and they were on the floor teaching in a week.

[Throwaway Overshare]

The sad thing, is that so many European dancer teachers, who work for a chain, DESPISE having to hard sell dance lessons. They see it as demeaning, they are here to teach, not to sell, and resent chain owners pressuring them to sell, sell, sell. I have seen outright altercations between owner and intructor, and believe me, it's not pretty.

This is the fundamental problem in studying with a teacher who is under the control of someone else.

If you cannot trust the teacher's individual judgment, you should probably not study with them. If you can trust it, you don't want an uninvolved third party interfering in your relationship with them.

[Tinydancergirl]

I've seen advertizements by chain studios that say:

"We need instructors. If you don't know how to dance, we'll teach you, then you can teach others."

I personally know of some "instructors" who were hired this way, and they were on the floor teaching in a week.

Get this. Too funny. I was watching a chain showcase a while ago and happened to notice the newly hired and trained teacher talking to his partner throughout the dance. I thought, aw, how cute, he's whispering encouragements, since it was her first time. Imaging my horror, as they danced in my direction and I was able to see what he was actually doing! Counting! Outloud! And it wasn't for her benefit, it was for his! And she paid good money for this? Sheesh! :rolleyes:

[Standarddancer]

The sad thing, is that so many European dancer teachers, who work for a chain, DESPISE having to hard sell dance lessons. They see it as demeaning, they are here to teach, not to sell, and resent chain owners pressuring them to sell, sell, sell. I have seen outright altercations between owner and intructor, and believe me, it's not pretty.

They've got no choice but to follow studio policy, also usually chain studio sponsoring foreign teachers for work visa and paying outrageous legal fee for the foreign dancers to work legally in States; usually there are severe penalty the dance teacher has to pay back to studio for breaking contract and enforceable by law...

I know someone who teaches in a distinguished chain studio, but not happy mainly because of studio do not allow her travel to compete or travel to go coaching lessons, also no great coaching in that area but she signed contract for 3 years, if she quit before contract expires, she'll pay financial reimbursement of $5000 or more...sad...

[Larinda McRaven]

I personally know of some "instructors" who were hired this way, and they were on the floor teaching in a week.

Like Me!

[Merrylegs]

Like Me!


Yes, but you are certainly the exception to the perception.

[fascination]

and FTR...that practice is not exclusive to chains

[Larinda McRaven]

Yes, but you are certainly the exception to the perception.

I dunno know about that
(Hi by the way!)

Most Teachers who are over 35 and are American started that way... which is just about everybody of that generation, Dustin, Marianne, Hamilton, Janelle Maranto, the Panetellos, Taylor, Powers, Klosses, Murphy, Sadano, Hillarys, .... just look back in our history to see who. And almost all of them were raised in the chain system. It is only currently that we have the Eastern European influx that teachers are former dancers that then become teachers.

I am one of a smaller and smaller circle of people, but certainly not an alone or an exception. Most everyone who started about my time or there after was quickly overwhelmed by the EE dancers. I somehow made it through. I was at an independant studio that ran identiacal to a chain. But I went to get my own coaching outside the studio because what was inside was very poor information.

[etp777]

Panetellos still are, or at least definitley still heavily attached to FA. WHich is fine with me, love having the three of them around, and actually looking forward to AAC this week because I assume one or all of them will be there. :) Though yes, aware their daughter isn't included on list you gave.

[Larinda McRaven]

Their daughter doesn't quite fit the description above of chains hiring "no experience neccessary" teachers. She grew up in the studio, transitioning to a teacher was a natural thing. She was not hired off the street with no prior experience.

She is actually a good example of finding quality teachers inside a chain.

[etp777]

Agreed.

[dancinrina]

I understand that many greats started off in the chain school system, but, no offense, this was years ago. This was the same time that my friend's dad became an engineer straight out of highschool without ever getting a college degree. I think things are a little different now. It seems that money is the word of the day.

[Merrylegs]

This was the same time that my friend's dad became an engineer straight out of highschool without ever getting a college degree.

I sure don't want to inside any building he designed!

[dancinrina]

I sure don't want to inside any building he designed!

You'd be surprised... and obviously he didn't just become and engineer overnight - I meant that he had no formal education but was taken on and trained on the job.

[Easy]

I have some teachers from another country. I started them out with a guarantee of at least $400 per teacher per week...whether they were busy or not. It may not seem like a lot to you, but I have overhead. Besides $1600 a month is a lot to shell out when the return is way in the future...plus the fact that I paid for the lawyer and visa fees. Since I have 2, it was costing me $3200 a month plus taxes, insurance, etc. Where was the money coming from?.....my profit! I carried them for several months and allowed them basically to choose when they wanted to take the money earned once it was more than their guarantee, but they are great and loyal teachers. Everyone loves them, and I love them like my kids, so the investment was worth it.

Now they make more than their guarantee, but it at least gave them a start. Money doesn't grow on trees, and it costs each studio owner differently to run their studio. My teachers can make up to 30 % of what they're bringing in...if I pay them anymore than that, then I'm paying more than my profit margin....in short, I'd close. I'll not let that happen.

Anyhow, BOT, find what you like no matter where it is, and you'll work out the rest :)

[Sunshines Partner]

Their daughter doesn't quite fit the description above of chains hiring "no experience neccessary" teachers. She grew up in the studio, transitioning to a teacher was a natural thing. She was not hired off the street with no prior experience.

She is actually a good example of finding quality teachers inside a chain.

You are correct Christina does not fit that example but dancers like Jose DeCamps and Fabian Sanchez do.

[Merrylegs]

You'd be surprised... and obviously he didn't just become and engineer overnight - I meant that he had no formal education but was taken on and trained on the job.

Isn't this the way of life? Job skills (engineering, dance teacher or otherwise) are not inherent in us. Everyone receives training, everyone.

[tangotime]

Everyone receives training, everyone.


I think more appropriately.... SHOULD ( not to mention the quality )

[Joe]

and FTR...that practice is not exclusive to chains
...or ballroom.

[fascination]

yep...

[Larinda McRaven]

You are correct Christina does not fit that example but dancers like Jose DeCamps and Fabian Sanchez do.

Yes there are beautiful examples everywhere of people that walk in off the street, start a teacher training program with no clue what lies in front of them... et viola!

It is not an exception really, we have just become so enamoured/blinded by the glamour/intrigue of a foreign dancer/teacher that we ignore our own and their abilities and opportunities. And since most people in America start dancing later in life, we automatically exclude them from the pool of potentially good teachers/dancers. And then it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I believe Tangotime said it several posts back that it is our own fault and we started it years ago by believing that if you weren't English you couldn't teach or dance either.

[Laura]

And since most people in America start dancing later in life, we automatically exclude them from the pool of potentially good teachers/dancers.
I have a theory related to this...two of my teachers learned to dance as adults, and they are VERY GOOD at explaining things to adults because they know what it is like to learn that way. Kids tend to learn by copying and just going for it, adults tend to be more analytical and self-conscious and want to understand "how" and "why." So, based on my experience, learning to dance as an Adult can actually be an asset to a teacher -- they seem to better understand and remember what it's like to struggle through learning something, and can be very supportive and empathetic about it.

[Standarddancer]

Kids tend to learn by copying and just going for it, adults tend to be more analytical and self-conscious and want to understand "how" and "why."

hey, this sounds familiar, a top pro standard lady had mentioned this, she mentioned very different method of teaching kids than adults with analytical skill...that's so true...