Followers' proficiency

[New in NY]

Followers, for how long and with what frequency did you take lessons before you felt reasonably comfortable dancing at a milonga? - able to follow a leader you had never danced with before and with your footwork fairly neat?

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Followers, for how long and with what frequency did you take lessons before you felt reasonably comfortable dancing at a milonga? - able to follow a leader you had never danced with before and with your footwork fairly neat?

It's hard to subjectively judge one's neatness of footwork. However, very subjectively, I would say I felt like I was able to dance with virtually anyone (although it did not mean that I would want to :)) and make it look at least OK about a year and a half - two years down the road. At the time I was spending anything from 8 to 18 hours a week doind tango (lessons, practicas, practice sessions, milongas).
Hope it helps.

[Peaches]

Meh. I felt comfortable more-or-less right away. My leaders might have had a different opinion on the matter. :rolleyes:

Besides, I tend to be horribly uncomfortable in most social situations, so the additional lack of comfort from being a beginner barely registered. (And I was so head-over-heels in love with AT that I barely noticed anyhow...ignorance is bliss.)

I let leaders know I was a beginner. Sure, they probably knew anyhow, but I still told them. I figured at that point it was up to them to lead appropriate (basic, simple) things. If they tried to get fancy and I couldn't keep up...well, that reflects worse on them than it does on a beginning follower.

IMO, to wait until you're "good enough" just gives you time to build up the fear in your head. Go, have a good time. So you're just starting and you suck? So what? You're a beginner...you're supposed to suck! Enjoy it! (Before you can't really use the beginner excuse to cover poor technique and you have to really take responsibility for it! :) )

[Zoopsia59]

Followers, for how long and with what frequency did you take lessons before you felt reasonably comfortable dancing at a milonga? - able to follow a leader you had never danced with before and with your footwork fairly neat?

I don't think I can answer that... I was dancing at a milonga with my teacher very early on. I struggled with many of the other leaders though. However, the better leaders didn't dance with me, so....

I think I was probably reasonably ok before I felt MYSELF that I was ok. I actually did ok with some strangers in NYC while I was still struggling in dances with local leaders. I finally took a few privates with the teacher who was the more popular teacher here, and told him I wanted to be able to follow better... not jut follow someone well only after dancing with them 10 times.

He told me that I actually was a very good follower, and that if I was having trouble with the people I was dancing with, it wasn't me. (part of me wanted to say... "then its YOU, because they're all YOUR students!" but that wouldn't be fair)

Amazingly, as soon as I got independent validation, I relaxed and my following was better even with those local leaders that I'd struggled with.

Part of the problem all along was the quality of their lead. Combine that with the fact that they were dancing primarily nuevo open embrace and I had been taught primarily in milonguero CE... well... the process took awhile. Even after dancing in open, I still had to work on controlling my balance in changing embraces... I tended to automatically go into to much lean in close which made opening very difficult.

I'd say my biggest obstacle was my confidence. Even now I get nervous sometimes and worry that a leader will not enjoy our dance. However this is often due less to the quality of the leader and more to the 'judgmental vibe" I get from him or from his reputation.

And sometimes what happens when I dance with a total stranger is that I have no expectations, and I'm relaxed... then when I realize he's really good, I start to worry and the 2nd dance in the tanda gets stiffer as we go and I have to make an effort to remind myself that I'm NOT chopped liver and that I CAN do this and do it well. Then the rest of the tanda goes well. :rolleyes:

I think the point is that I had issues beyond learning the dance. I think this is true for many people although it varies what their issues are and how they overcome them, and how long that takes. (I also had a great deal of trouble learning to trust the leader to keep me safe while I was blind to what was gonna happen behind me)

So how long? Well, when I get to the point of feeling I can follow most anyone and be neat with my feet and go to milongas where I don't know anyone without being nervous... I'll let you know! :)

[Peaches]

I don't think I can answer that... I was dancing at a milonga with my teacher very early on. I struggled with many of the other leaders though. However, the better leaders didn't dance with me, so....

I think I was probably reasonably ok before I felt MYSELF that I was ok. I actually did ok with some strangers in NYC while I was still struggling in dances with local leaders. I finally took a few privates with the teacher who was the more popular teacher here, and told him I wanted to be able to follow better... not jut follow someone well only after dancing with them 10 times.

He told me that I actually was a very good follower, and that if I was having trouble with the people I was dancing with, it wasn't me.

Amazingly, as soon as I got independent validation, I relaxed and my following was better even with those local leaders that I'd struggled with.

But part of the problem all along was the quality of their lead. Combine that with the fact that they were dancing primarily open embrace and I had been taught primarily on CE... well... the process took awhile.

I'd say my biggest obstacle was my confidence. Even now I get nervous sometimes and worry that a leader will not enjoy our dance.

And sometimes what happens when I dance with a total stranger is that I have no expectations, and I'm relaxed... then when I realize he's really good, I start to worry and the 2nd dance in the tanda gets stiffer as we go and I have to make an effort to remind myself that I'm NOT chopped liver and that I CAN do this and do it well. Then the rest of the tanda goes well. :rolleyes:

I think the point is that I had issues beyond learning the dance. I think this is true for many people although it varies what their issues are and how they overcome them, and how long that takes. (I also had a great deal of trouble learning to trust the leader to keep me safe while I was blind to what was gonna happen behind me)

So how long? Well, when I get to the point of feeling I can follow most anyone and be neat with my feet and go to milongas where I don't know anyone without being nervous... I'll let you know! :)Bingo.

[Mladenac]

Followers, for how long and with what frequency did you take lessons before you felt reasonably comfortable dancing at a milonga? - able to follow a leader you had never danced with before and with your footwork fairly neat?

I know that I shouln't write here since I am a leader. :eek:

Some followers are great immediately cause they are comfortable with their bodies and are not afraid of new men.

I danced with some follower that dance by heart after quite long time (2-3yrs).
They have the same teachers that I have. They missed sth during the lessons.

What you asked is clearly depending on the person.
But what I noticed for followers is 6-12 months of dancing to feel comfortable and to follow majority of elements that they are led.

That period depends on person and how that person was taught.
Sometimes it takes much longer.

[ant]

Followers, for how long and with what frequency did you take lessons before you felt reasonably comfortable dancing at a milonga? - able to follow a leader you had never danced with before and with your footwork fairly neat?

I am probabally nearer to a beginner level leader than most other guys on this forum. As far as I am concerned I am happy to dance with any follower that can

- distinguish my lead between a step and a pivot after we have done a step and
- go with what they feel rather than what they think

As far as I can tell most of the practise you get from AT is within the dance itself. So the sooner you are able to get get out there and dance the more you will learn.

[mkjohnson]

umm.. pretty much what Peaches and Zoopsia said. It really depends if you mean "comfortable" at the milongas - pretty much within a month, and "competent" at the milongas - which still varies by night.

I started dancing in the milongas after about 3 weeks, but I was dancing between 15-20 hours a week. I now dance between 12-15 hours a week. But being comfortable going to a milonga and attempting to dance is different than being comfortable with my dancing. It's been a bit over a year - and some nights I'm totally comfortable dancing with strangers and confident that I'll "get" their leads. Other nights it all falls apart and I feel like I'm back at square one. It just depends.

I've had "advanced" (for whatever that term is worth - dancing for many years, in this case) leaders tell me I'm very natural and skilled, and follow well. I've had different "advanced" leaders tell me I'm doing all sorts of things wrong. *shrug* Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Everyone can tell me I'm awesome, I can even feel pretty awesome about myself (I'll send a memo if that every happens), and still have a craptastic-was-that-a-cross-lead-I-just-missed dance with someone. That life (and tango).

[Mladenac]

Sometimes it's crappy night or crappy leader

[New in NY]

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. I should clarify that I am not avoiding milongas until I feel entirely proficient (I have been to a few), I am simply curious at what point in their practice others felt competent. I have been studying AT for about a year and a half with weekly group lessons and privates with my husband an average of 2x/month for the past several months. We go to practicas or practice at home an average of about 5 hours a week, so I guess significantly less than several of you. (Wow! Everyone's passion for the dance is wonderful.) I have no dance background and no aptitude for dance (not being self-deprecating, it is what it is), but so far I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.

[Zoopsia59]

I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.

I think that's probably because there is more consistency between leaders in ballroom. If there are 2 AT teachers in your area, you are likley to have 2 very different styles being taught. If you have 12 ballroom teachers, you are still going to have only 2 styles being taught (american and international) with maybe some variations based on whether the teachers are actually all qualified.

Ballroom is just more standardized, and there are more people doing it most places. So you're going to run into more good leaders, and the good leaders are going to be more similar to one another than the good tango leaders (who are fewer to begin with) There is also more chance that other ballroom dancers learned the same steps that you did at the same level, so even if you are dancing with someone at your level, they will match up to you better than someone at your level in AT.

NYC (if that's where you are) has a very large AT community, but also has many teachers all emphasizing different things and teaching different styles. In some ways that's good.. but in others, it can make the learning curve much steeper.

[New in NY]

I think that's probably because there is more consistency between leaders in ballroom. Thank you, this makes perfect sense and comforts me a bit! And yes, I take lessons in Manhattan.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Great topic. I enjoyed reading everyone's responses.

I would also like to add that dancing and practicing Argentine tango mostly with one person (especially if that person is a beginner, like yourself) not equals dancing and practicing with several people of different levels. I believe that regularly following leaders who are good and confident in their skills, who know what they are doing contributes greatly to followers development and confidence.

But not to worry, as everyone said, in any case your personal mileage may vary depending on many factors. As long as you are trying to make the best out of your particular situation, working on your progress, everything is going fine.

[dchester]

All I'll say is that pretty much every follower picked this stuff up a lot quicker than I did.

(but then again, a lot of leaders did too.)

:headwall:

[AndaBien]

...
I would also like to add that dancing and practicing Argentine tango mostly with one person (especially if that person is a beginner, like yourself) not equals dancing and practicing with several people of different levels. I believe that regularly following leaders who are good and confident in their skills, who know what they are doing contributes greatly to followers development and confidence.
...

I agree. Much of what followers need to learn is how to dance with the great variety of leaders found at milongas, and that comes mainly from long experience on the dance floor. It's easy to become habituated to leaders who you are familiar with.

[Zoopsia59]

All I'll say is that pretty much every follower picked this stuff up a lot quicker than I did.

(but then again, a lot of leaders did too.)

:headwall:

Nah... we just fake it better, since we already have experience at that. ;)

[Dave Bailey]

Nah... we just fake it better, since we already have experience at that. ;)
Interestingly, I just today wrote an article about that (http://www.learningtango.com/Improvers/FailureToLead.html), using the same metaphor...

[dchester]

Interestingly, I just today wrote an article about that (http://www.learningtango.com/Improvers/FailureToLead.html), using the same metaphor...
What's a girl to do, when she knows what the leader is trying to do, but he's not actually leading it - he's either leading it weakly, or leading it wrong?
Not that anyone asked me, but I thought I'd get some spirited debate going.

:twisted:

If the follower knows what he is trying to lead, didn't he (in some way) communicate the step, or lead it? Granted, it may not have been lead well. But if she understood it, shouldn't she just do the step, unless there is a safety issue (pain, collision, etc.), or something like that?

[Zoopsia59]

Not that anyone asked me, but I thought I'd get some spirited debate going.

:twisted:

If the follower knows what he is trying to lead, didn't he (in some way) communicate the step, or lead it? Granted, it may not have been lead well. But if she understood it, shouldn't she just do the step, unless there is a safety issue (pain, collision, etc.), or something like that?

That depends on HOW she knows what he was trying to lead...

If you are social dancing and he struggles a little in general, that's one thing... sure... help him out. You can't exactly not follow ANYTHING because the leader hasn't perfected his overall leading ability. Consider the level he's at and cut him a little slack...

BTW - guys in that situation seem to know they are struggling and are aware they need to improve, and yet they often also appreciate it when you DON"T just follow anything no matter how badly they led it because they can't judge where they are going wrong... I've actually had leaders THANK me for refusing to follow something if it was led wrong (because then they can really feel where I am vs where they wanted me) and when I'm trying to lead, I tell the followers not to do anything if I didn't lead it right. I think it helps a leader more to simply either do what his lead felt like (even when you know its NOT what he meant) or do nothing at all, than it is to do what you know he wanted if you have to do it awkwardly. He doesn't learn much from a follower being as awkward in her movement as he is in his.

But I think the situations where followers resent having to follow anyway are where the guy doesn't know he's struggling.. For instance:

Was it because she's had him badly lead that step that same way before so she's learned his pattern? In that case, going along will simply reinforce his bad way of leading because it works for him.

Was it because he is making a common mistake? I guess she can go along with it hoping eventually his teacher will sort it out, but if he's getting results on the dance floor, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to accept his teacher's correction on something that he doesn't "need" to fix. He'll more likely concentrate his efforts on things that he's not getting away with or that are new and exciting.

Is it because its obvious what he expects even though he hasn't led anything (such as positioning her, then sticking his leg somewhere, and then doing nothing at all while waiting for her to gancho that leg even though he hasn't led a gancho AT ALL)
See previous statement about common mistakes.

Was it because he tells her? I think we all know what she should do about THAT!

What happens is that a leader consistently makes certain specific mistakes and we followers get tired of accomodating them when he never improves on it over time. In that case, I'd suspect that having the followers going along with it is a big part of why he never improves it. So you're not really doing him a favor by just doing the step.

So I guess it comes down to weighing the short and long term benefits to both partners...

Will it impede his learning by convincing him that he's right and if an occasional follower doesn't do it, SHE'S wrong?
Or will it make it easier for him to get over the early fears of getting out dancing and motivate him to improve?

Will executing the move anyway require her to sacrifice some of HER proper technique because the position is all wrong? Or can she do it easily, knowing he'll recognize that she's helping him out and appreciate that?

Who benefits? Who loses? Now? Later?

[Angel HI]

Originally Posted by New in NY http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=775763#post775763)
I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.
I think that's probably because there is more consistency between leaders in ballroom.I'm surorised that no one has mentioned that BR/Latin, etc are mostly (unfortunately) pattern based, and, to some degree, a follow will know the pattern or usual move (ex: how many times have you been turned out from a basic, say cha, and not danced crossover?). AT simply isn't the same.

[Dave Bailey]

If the follower knows what he is trying to lead, didn't he (in some way) communicate the step, or lead it?
You can communicate something without leading it.

The obvious example is when a leader says the old classic "You're supposed to [insert step here]...". That's communication, but it's not leading. If you have to tell the follower what she's "supposed to" do, you've failed to lead properly.

[newbie]

Followers, for how long and with what frequency did you take lessons before you felt reasonably comfortable dancing at a milonga? - able to follow a leader you had never danced with before and with your footwork fairly neat?

My first partner needed two days. Then she stopped taking classes and just kept going to milongas, dancing with any leader ranging from nearly-advanced to pro.

[New in NY]

My first partner needed two days. Then she stopped taking classes and just kept going to milongas, dancing with any leader ranging from nearly-advanced to pro.
That's pretty amazing. Was she perhaps already an advanced follower in other forms of dance?

[Dave Bailey]

Oh, and:

That depends on HOW she knows what he was trying to lead...

If you are social dancing and he struggles a little in general, that's one thing... sure... help him out. You can't exactly not follow ANYTHING because the leader hasn't perfected his overall leading ability. Consider the level he's at and cut him a little slack...

Yes, that's the way I see it also.

But I think the situations where followers resent having to follow anyway are where the guy doesn't know he's struggling..
I agree again.

In fact, I like this whole post - can I re-write the article and use it / quote from it?

[Dave Bailey]

Originally Posted by New in NY http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=775763#post775763)
I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.
I'm surorised that no one has mentioned that BR/Latin, etc are mostly (unfortunately) pattern based, and, to some degree, a follow will know the pattern or usual move (ex: how many times have you been turned out from a basic, say cha, and not danced crossover?). AT simply isn't the same.
I assumed that was covered by the "even if I am being led steps I do not know" bit of the post.

[Mario7]

As far as I can tell most of the practise you get from AT is within the dance itself. So the sooner you are able to get get out there and dance the more you will learn.
I'm finding this factoid to be very true.:rocker:

[Mario7]

Nah... we just fake it better, since we already have experience at that. ;)
That's scarey..:-? ...but honest.

[Zoopsia59]

Originally Posted by New in NY http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=775763#post775763)
I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.
I'm surorised that no one has mentioned that BR/Latin, etc are mostly (unfortunately) pattern based, and, to some degree, a follow will know the pattern or usual move (ex: how many times have you been turned out from a basic, say cha, and not danced crossover?). AT simply isn't the same.

I didn't want to make that assumption because it seems as ballroom gets more advanced, it become more lead/follow based? I expected to get flamed if I said "ballroom is about step patterns". I follow ballroom decently, but only took lessons to the intermediate'ish level and even that only in certain dances, so I really can't speak to what it's like for advanced dancers (and since I do it so seldom now, I don't recognize that one thing "typically" follows another)

However, in the beginning it seems to be very much about patterns and the patterns are fairly standardized in teaching everywhere. I think its the standardization that really makes it easier to dance with a variety of people early on.

[newbie]

Was she perhaps already an advanced follower in other forms of dance?

She was advanced in be-bop.