Contracts -- Yes or No?

[pygmalion]

I know what you're thinking. I can't believe she went there! :shock: :lol: But yes, I've decided to go there. It's easy to be fearless when you're hiding behind relative computer anonymity. LOL.

What do you think of dance lesson contracts? Do they serve a useful purpose? What are the advantages and disadvantages, from the dancer's perspective or teacher's perspective? And where did they come from, anyway?

Thoughts, anyone?

[mamboqueen]

Well, I work in the legal field, so I'm generally disinclined to sign contracts because the standard forms are usually so completely one-sided, and most places won't let you negotiate and/or mark it up (mostly because the people having you sign aren't trained to do so). If they are adamant about signing a contract, and I was just beginning with a studio, I would tell them I wanted to try them out before signing a contract. IF they are good and reputable, they would allow you to do that (unless of course, franchises as a practice don't permit this). But, it would be saying a whole lot if they didn't let you try it before you buy it!

And ask youself what the contract does for you? Is getting a lower rate your only upside? If so, there are tons of studios that will give you a discount by buying in bulk that don't make you sign anything. I would, of course, ask up front if something were to happen in your life that changed your circumstances, would they refund the money? It seems to me if you pre-pay for something and don't get it, you should be refunded (perhaps with a price adjustment to raise the price since you aren't taking as many lessons).

In any event, after that long-winded diatribe, my answer is "no." If you do sign a contract, I urge you to read it. Most people don't, and it can come back to bite you!

[DanceMentor]

As a dance instructor, there is a delicate balance between getting commitment from the student vs. hard selling.

If you want to become a good dancer it is important to remain committed, and come to class even on days you don't feel confident. If you work through the challenges, things get easier.

I have often been disappointed to see students who quit too soon when I know they would have been great, but they somehow got discouraged early in their lessons.

So for the above reasons, I support having at least a short term contract...for the benefit of the student (NOT me!). Dancing actually represents a small part of my income, and I prefer students who REALLY enjoy dancing and want being there. If that is not the case, then I really am not motivated just because they are paying me.

[ShyDancer]

Dont like them.


You cant force someone into enjoying dance, If you enjoy it , you will be back regardless of wether you have a contract or not.
A contract would keep people who arent really into it in class and if they dont enjoy it they wont be doing as well as someone who is throwing their all into learning.

Id prefer people to be there because they want (or need- like me :lol: ) to be there because they love to dance, not because they signed a contract and are obliged to be there.


I can see the view from a studio wanting to ensure a regular cash flow, but I feel there efforts would be better spent working out ways to make sure that beginners are having fun and wanting to return of their own accord.

[DanceMentor]

I understand your point, Shydancer, but do you think people sometimes quit thinking "I can't dance", "I have no rhythm", etc.?

I say this because I have had students actually thank me for pushing them to continue. It's not all about money. Commitment (all and of itself) can be an important part of learning any skill, and it certainly helps to have people who encourage you along the way.

Is there anything wrong with a 10 lesson contract? 5 lesson?
How do you draw the line?

(now if we are talking about more than 20, I don't really support it, except in exceptional cases)

[pygmalion]

I can see the view from a studio wanting to ensure a regular cash flow, but I feel there efforts would be better spent working out ways to make sure that beginners are having fun and wanting to return of their own accord.

Not trying to be difficult, here, but what's wrong with cash flow? Not for franchises, per se, but for dance teachers who work there? I've seen teachers who were friends of mine really benefit from the commission and bonus checks that come with those contracts. I'm not suggesting that long-term, overlapping, or high-pressure contracts are a good thing. They stink, IMHO! :x But reliable income is a necessity for dance teachers, and contracts can help to provide that.

Just another perspective. 8)

[mamboqueen]

Well, let me ask you a question.

Would you sign a lease for an apartment for one year that you were bound to, if you could find the equivalent or better, on a month-to-month rental basis? To me, there has to be a very big incentive to sign a contract when there is direct competition that doesn't require it?

[pygmalion]

I'm not saying contracts are a good thing. As a matter of fact, I plan never to sign another one. I'm pointing out that the dance teacher's perspective may be different, and still justified.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. Not a single independent studio that I know of has those long term contracts. So it appears that a dance studio can run successfully without them. Hmm ...

[robin]

OK, I'm really intrigued now... How do these studios actually work? What are the contracts for? Is it like a club membership? Or more like a bulk-sale? Do you get discounts? Also, am i right in understanding that these contracts are for private lessons as well as classes?

In germany i've seen "contracts" for a course of group lessons, e.g. it's an eight week course with 1 1/2 hours a week that goes through the bronze syllabus ballroom and it might cost $100 or so, private lessons were the exception rather than the norm at social studios and usually were booked as a one-off.

In the UK, at least for competitive dancing, you tend to informally book lessons with teachers and pay them after the lesson. I think social dancing is generally taught in classes, either paid for in blocks of a couple of weeks (like germany) or on the door (that's what universities tend to do).

My only experience on the organising side is that i was club president of a university club and we found that taking money on the door worked fine, encouraged a lot of people to give it a go and kept us on our toes to keep it attractive so that people would come back! Usually not a problem, dancing is addictive, no contracts needed ;). It's actually surprisingly easy to run a profitable dance club, even though we got no support from the university and had 2 full-time professional teachers...

Robin

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I'm not qualified to give a legal description, but, basically, it's a written, legally binding agreement between a student and a studio that the student will purchase and use so many lessons over a designated period of time. The studios encourage payment up front, but there are alternative time payment arrangment made sometimes as well.

In their defense, I've known people use them as a means of budgeting their dance expenditures (i.e. so many dollars per month, rather than a twice-yearly lump sum.) I've also seen one gentleman who had paid his contract up front be able to keep dancing for a full year while he was unemployed.

In the against column, read the small print very carefully. The contracts I signed depreciated lessons rapidly. So, if you agreed to, say, 50 lessons within a year, but a month later decided to cancel the contract, you would get no money back, because the lessons had been devalued. Pretty sneaky, I thought. Getting out of those contracts is very difficult, and many studios encourage students to buy overlapping contracts (i.e. buy 50 more lessons now, in the middle of an existing contract, because there's a sales promotion going.)


There are clearly at least two sides, both with some pros and cons.

Incidentally, at an independent studio, I also entered into verbal "contracts" which were much more to my liking. In these, like DM suggested, you agreed up front to a small number of lessons -- in this case, ten. For paying up front, you got a 10% discount. A win-win, I thought.

[little zephyr]

i don't like the idea of contracts. the only advantage i see to them is the financial one that guarantees the studio makes money whether or not the lessons are actually taken.

that said, i do believe there are a number of advantages to getting students to purchase 'packages' of private lessons (provided, as another member mentioned, the packages aren't for huge numbers of lessons). for a student to buy a package of 5, 10 or 20 lessons shows that they are enjoying the time they spend dancing, and that they see a value from the lessons they are taking. it also shows their level of commitment, how 'into it' they are, and to some extent, what level of dancing they aspire to. based on this, i believe that getting a student to commit to taking a number of lessons (rather than just one at a time) makes it easier for the teacher to teach them, and allows the student more quality instruction. if a teacher knows a student will only be around for a few lessons, depending on the circumstances, they may be reluctant to get too technical/involved for fear of leaving the student confused, or teach techniques and principles that will require alot of time to explain, and more time to practice and to develop. on the other hand, if a teacher knows a student is going to be around for, say, 10 or more lessons, they can deduce that the student likes what they are doing, and has the drive to be a really good dancer. with that in mind, the teacher can feel free to introduce more complex or involved techniques, knowing the student will be with them for a while, and they will have time to work on the techniques and develop them. so in a sense, imo, the more lessons a student signs up for, the more freedom it gives the teacher to really 'teach' them, instead of just trying to give them a quick fix or some simple step patterns.

my studio sells 5, 10, and 20 lesson packages, with the price per hour declining the more lessons the student commits to. they don't require that the entire package be paid in advance, just as long as students don't get behind on payments, and money is refunded for lessons not taken. there has been a very positive response to this approach, and people who have taken lessons other places often find the 'no contracts' idea *******ing.

in short, i believe a person who really wants to learn to dance doesn't need a contract (non-refundable purchase) to ensure their commitment. for those who decide they don't want to learn, a contract won't keep them there, and personally, if i were teaching, i wouldn't want students to come to lessons just because they feel like they have to.

just my two cents...

[KevinL]

Depending on how you look at it, weekly group lessons that you pay for in advance might be considered a "contract". Around here group lessons generally cost $40 for four weeks, if you pay up front. If you pay every week there is usually an extra dollar or so added to the cost. This kind of "contract" ensures that the teacher knows they will earn enough for the whole month to make the classes worthwhile, but also encourages the student to come each week since they have already paid for the classes.

As far as private lessons, I don't know how anyone elses does it locaally, but I give discounts for blocks of 5 or 10 lessons, with refunds for unused lessons. The refunds are prorated based on if they actually completed a set though. If someone buys 5 lessons for $275 and only uses 4 of them I charge them at my regular hourly rate of $60 and only refund $35 for the unused lesson.

Also in the contract it says that if the student cancels the lesson with less than 24 hours that I can still charge them for the lesson. I've often had to turn people down for lessons because I don't have time to teach them because all my open slots are booked. If someone then cancels at the last minute those other students have lost their chance for no good reason. I haven't actually done this yet, but it is a clause in the "contract".

Kevin

[mamboqueen]

Kevin,

Everything you just said is the way it should be done.

I have no problem with having to pay $x/8 week session (ours go by the month) for group classes, so that the instructors can ensure it is worth their while to conduct the classes. Students shouldn't really expect to pay $10/lesson and end up getting a private if no one else shows up (although it's a *nice* thing if it happens to ya!).

[virginiadancegirl]

Depending on how you look at it, weekly group lessons that you pay for in advance might be considered a "contract". Around here group lessons generally cost $40 for four weeks, if you pay up front. If you pay every week there is usually an extra dollar or so added to the cost. This kind of "contract" ensures that the teacher knows they will earn enough for the whole month to make the classes worthwhile, but also encourages the student to come each week since they have already paid for the classes.

As far as private lessons, I don't know how anyone elses does it locaally, but I give discounts for blocks of 5 or 10 lessons, with refunds for unused lessons. The refunds are prorated based on if they actually completed a set though. If someone buys 5 lessons for $275 and only uses 4 of them I charge them at my regular hourly rate of $60 and only refund $35 for the unused lesson.

Also in the contract it says that if the student cancels the lesson with less than 24 hours that I can still charge them for the lesson. I've often had to turn people down for lessons because I don't have time to teach them because all my open slots are booked. If someone then cancels at the last minute those other students have lost their chance for no good reason. I haven't actually done this yet, but it is a clause in the "contract".

Kevin

Are you an independent yourself, work for an independent studio, or what??

I'm curious, and then will post my opinions based on that ! :lol:

[KevinL]

Are you an independent yourself, work for an independent studio, or what??

I'm curious, and then will post my opinions based on that ! :lol:

As far as I can tell there are only one or two permanent partner dance studios in Vermont, although there are several dance studios that cater to the youth market and teach ballet/ tap/ modern/ jazz. They are not associated with any chain school, as far as I can tell.

I am an independent teacher, although I would like to consider myself an independent studio. I can't legitimately do that, though, since I don't maintain a physical space and "only" rent space from halls and social clubs to teach my classes and hold dances, and I don't have any employees.

Why would my independentness matter for your post?

Kevin

[virginiadancegirl]

Because I, too, am sort of an independent.
I am technically my partner's only "employee", and though we don't have a full-time space as yet, we are working on finding one.

I do not believe in contracts, but I believe pre-payment is a different animal altogether. We do not do contracts at all...but do occasionally run specials offering students a discount for "bulk" lesson purchases in advance. I am one who does not believe in contracts, as in at least some underlying way, it seems like a way to "bully" people into continuing something that they may not want to continue.

I was wondering about your answer prior to posting, because some people who are/were affiliated with "cahin" schools are very....ummmm...vocal about their opinions....

I like to stick my toe in the water before jumping head first in with alligators......
:D

[Chris Stratton]

The if you will "contract" I did have for a while was essentially a 'standing private' appointment with a local coach. It was really only a verbal agreement that I would have a lesson at that time each week unless one of us specifically cancelled, but came with a bit of an understanding that I'd have to use the time almost every week in order to keep that schedule priority. In fact, the way I first got a reserved slot was that a friend who had it was looking for someone to use his time a few weeks when he couldn't, then he later ended mostly dropping that competitive style.

Actual payment was handled one lesson at a time.

I think though that this met the needs for predictability and advanced planning of both sides pretty well. It was of course essentially unenforceable, but since no one really wants to burn bridges with any established member of a local dance community, the actual 'damages' that would accrue from either party failing to hold up their side would far exceed the 1, maybe 2 lesson fees they'd be able to recover through any formal enforcement action.

[twodance]

Since the 1970's contracts have been required by the FTC in the dance business. However each state has their own 'Blue Sky' laws. In the state of Ohio anything sold over $300.00 has to be written up on a contract. The contracts where introduced to protect the student from bad studios. Somewhere along the line people have gotten the tables turned on the subject. They are in place to protect the student, not the owner. At my studio we do not use contracts because my students pay by the week. For anything over $300.00 such as a competition we write up a contract.

[dancin_feet]

I have no problem with contracts at my studio. Yes they can lock you in for lessons for a long time, but you can cancel the contract by paying a cancellation fee. It's the risk you run when you sign any contract whether it be a mortgage, contract with a telephone company, anything. Contracts are a part of life.

At our studio if you are contracted for a private and group lesson once a week, your private lesson is booked in at the same time, and no-one can take that time from you (unless by agreement between both you and your instructor). Even if you have to cancel one week, the rest of your contract is still intact so the time slot is yours. Also for groups, if the number of people falls below the minimum required for a group (I think at the moment it is either 2 or 3) they are contracted to provide you that group, so you can in all liklihood get a private lesson. A lot of my South American group classes were private lessons because I was contracted for groups, but no-one other than me showed up! :twisted:

[Chris Stratton]

Contracts can be written to protect whoever the lawyer writing them is hired to protect. Sometimes that actually can both parties... but a lot of preprinted ones are pretty heavily one-sided.

It does sound like twodance's studio has the right idea - getting into contracts only for something like a comp where there's no way to avoid a substantial advance comittiment.

In fairness, I also think we have to admit that the studios with yellow-pages adds have to deal with a far more varied spectrum of student interest and reliabilty than the more prestigious and competition-oriented studios do. Students who buy lessons without the prompting of the hard sell are also perhaps more likely to follow through on things of their own accord (excepting those who exhibit a persistent yet not really malicious flakiness).

[Laura]

Personally, I won't ever sign another contract. Why? Because the ones I've signed in the past have has such provisos as that I would not socialize with my instructor and that the studio has the right to change my instructor at any time.

I'm an adult and aren't looking for a boyfriend or a buddy, so having to sign a non-fraternization clause is insulting to me. I went to my teacher's wedding last year, which would not have been allowed under the standard studio non-fraternization contract. It's nice having my teacher's home and cell phone numbers, it makes it easier for us to reschedule lessons when needed. Similarly, I choose to take lessons with my particular teacher, and don't want anyone changing him out from underneath me.

I pre-pay for lessons 10 at a time, and get a slight price break because of this. That's plenty good for me. I don't need incentive to keep dancing, I just need to have my teacher be there at our appointed times every week. This has worked well for me for the past 7 years.

[robin]

For anything over $300.00 such as a competition we write up a contract.

Wow, what do you get for a $300+ competition? Does that include accommodation/food/flights/etc? Just the entry for the competition surely can't be that much!

[pygmalion]

Oh Robin! You are such a good straight man. :) No offense intended. You just ask the perfect questions in these threads.

Would someone care to explain how the entries for comps work? Am/Am, Pro, and Pro/Am? And how the pricing structure works, with some typical costs?

My short answer is that $300 is quite a feasible charge, without anything else included, Robin.

Long answer, anyone?

[dave_aw]

I think Robin, like myself, is just shocked and stunned at the vast fees that you guys consider completely normal. I can have an hour's private lesson with a former latin world champion for just 30 pounds per hour (which is apparently around $55 at todays rates). She doesn't ask for any contracts, I just book when I want and pay. Ok, some of the really top teachers over here might charge as much as 45 pounds for 45 minutes (so thats $110 for an hour), but they are training the current world champions so thats probably fair!

The thing is, these people are incredibly high -evel. When we read about relatively inexperienced teachers in the USA not only charging massive rates per lesson but also demanding extra fees, contracts etc. we can hardly believe what we're reading.

Robin told me that he read somewhere on here that someone reckoned it would cost them something like $40,000 to get to gold standard. That is absolutely outrageous. You could probably do it a *lot* cheaper by flying to the UK, staying in a reasonable hotel and taking groups of lessons while here. No contracts, no hidden fees.

Oh an incidentally shoes and dresses are much cheaper over here too! I think you folks need to organise a rebellion to get more value-for-money over there! :D

[robin]

I'm just trying to find out how the whole scene works in the US. I currently live in the UK and typical entry fees are 10 pounds ($20)/person, a bit less for collegiate comps and a bit more for some of the high-profile events (maybe 20 pounds/person), but certainly not 100s. This normally is a flat charge, regardless of how many events you enter...

I hadn't thought of having to pay your dance-partner, as pro-am doesn't exist in the UK as far as I know... but surely as an amateur couple you wouldn't pay a $300 entry fee?

[Chris Stratton]

The high numbers you are seeing quoted are for pro-am, the 'dance with you r teacher' approach to not only training, but competition. In that case, you are paying not only entry fees, but also paying your 'partner' per dance, plus a chunk of their arifaire and lodging, sometimes even lost income from teaching they miss. I've heard of people spending more on one competition than I spend in an entire year.

It sounds just as increadible to budget minded US amateur-amateur competitors as it does to those overseas. US amateurs don't have quite the variety of high level coaches to choose from, but we do have some good people and aren't paying them all that much more. Plus some of your big names like the Hilliers, Chris & Hazel, etc do come over from time to time, and what we have to pay to study with them is within a fair travel premium of what you have to pay...

Competitor-oriented events in the US are typically charging around $40-50 a person, with the college comps (starting to be some of the best attended local/regional events) charging adults sometimes as little as $30. Many of the pro-am oriented competitions still charge amateur couples quite a bit - it used to be that you had to buy a ticket to get into the ballroom, in addition to your entry fee. But several of those events are streamlining things now - the Yankee Classic this weekend is $100/couple all inclusive for Sunday (though you still have to buy a ticket if you want to watch other sessions, such as Chris & Hazel's show on Saturday).

[robin]

Thanks Chris,

those amounts sound eminently more sensible! I was starting to think you have to be a multi-millionaire to compete in the US... Are the worlds of amateur and Pro-Am very separate in the US then?

Anyway, I've been to the Intercontinental Dance Festival in Florida twice, and was very impressed with some of the US and Canadian coaches, my particular favourites were Timothy and Michelle Mason (in 2002) and Alain Doucet & Annike Jolicoeur (this year), and it seems that quite a few of the top pros now live and teach in the US... but I guess "in the US" can still mean a 2000 mile journey ;).

Are you going to be able to see Chris and Hazel's show? I was absolutely stunned the first time I saw them live, absolutely amazing. They're also really nice guys and came over for a long chat with us after their show at a local ball... (We were about 15 students at a ball with an average age of 70 or so), one of the girls even ended up doing some social dancing with Chris ...

[Purr]

I'm responding from my pro/am competition experience.

First, there are the pro/am entry fees. Typical fees I've seen are $25 for a freestyle entry, $40 for a multi-dance entry, $50 for a solo, and $60 for a scholarship; however, I've seen fees much higher. Fees will vary depending on the competition, and they go to go to the organizer.

Second, there are the teacher's fees. The teacher should charge an fee per entry, depending on the type of entry. My experience has been $10 per freestyle entry, and higher charges for the other types of entries. Also, the teacher should charge a fee per day, for being at the competition. This fee is to balance the lost income for lessons taught if the teacher were at the studio, instead of the competition.

Third, there are the accommodation fees. Competitions generally offer a package(s), which includes the hotel room, meals, and entry fees to the ballroom. Package prices that I've seen vary depending on what's offered. Each student pays their own accommodation expenses. Additionally, the student pays for the teacher's expenses. If several students are going with a teacher, those expenses may be split accordingly.

Fourth, there are travel expenses, such as air fare to a competition. Each student pays for their own travel expenses. And, the student pays (or splits) the teacher's expenses as well.

There are numerous other expenses associated with a competition as well. For the competitor, there's the dresses, accessories, and shoes. If the competitor gets their hair/makeup done at a competition, it's an additional expense. And then there are additional expenses for photos and videos, if the competitor chooses to purchase them. And, let's not forget all the extra lessons, and possibly coaching, getting ready for the competition.

Going to a competition can be quite a costly undertaking. A rough estimate is that I spent around $4,000 for my last competition. Additionally, I spent an additional $1,000 in ancillary expenses (coaching and extra lessons) in the 2 months prior to the competition.

Am I sorry I went? No. I placed well, and in some events, particularily smooth, my performance was a personal best. I had a great time. And, it was a definate learning experience. 8)

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, I have a standing-room ticket to the show. I had lessons with Hazel in March, but this will be the first time I've seen them dance.

As for pro-am and am-am being seperate, there are a lot of people who do only one, and overlap can be small. But there are also some people who do both and serve to tie things together. Most US pros have at least a few pro-am students (the money is just too good to pass up, and it really can be a positive experience for all involved when it works well) so you do often enounter and interact with people from the other side of the house at studios and in group classes.

[dave_aw]

Going to a competition can be quite a costly undertaking. A rough estimate is that I spent around $4,000 for my last competition. Additionally, I spent an additional $1,000 in ancillary expenses (coaching and extra lessons) in the 2 months prior to the competition.


:shock:

I could enter about 30 competitions for that! The absolute most expensive competitions I ever entered was Blackpool. This involved travelling up on a Sunday and back on the following Thursday.

£30 in fuel to travel
£80 in accomodation
£80 in food & drink
£60 for tickets
£10 for cosmetic bits and bobs
£20 for assorted other things, programmes etc.

total: £280

Average competition I go to:

£20 in fuel
£10 entry cost
£20 preparation - tanning/hair etc.

total: £50

(double these figures for dollars, approximately)

Taking into account buying all costumes and lessons etc. I think its probably reasonable to say that competing ProAm in the states is around 10 times more expensive than dancing amateur in the UK. Personally I doubt that anyone improves faster doing ProAm than they do doing Am...

The only reason not to do Am that I can see is that finding a partner is difficult, but that aside, it still sounds outrageously expensive!

[pygmalion]

The entry fees vary by how the comp is set up, at least from what I've seen on various comp web sites -- some charge by the heat, while some have package deals, where you get so many entries for a price, as Chris mentioned. I've seen per-heat expenses from about $15 to about $25 per heat. But pro-am dancers pay a mark-up per heat. Most comps have a web site with costs published, although many withhold the cost of pro-am as a courtesy to the pros. They publish a wholesale package to dance pros, who mark-up and then promote comps to their students.

Purr gave a pretty good run-down on pro-am expenses.

Incidentally, there's another thread on this somewhere, but pro-am dancers are paying hundreds to even thousands of dollars to enter comps, because they're paying teachers to dance with them. That doesn't come cheap. The pro-am comp I was in last fall cost me roughly $700 for entries alone -- $35 per heat times the 20 heats I danced. I'll have to pull out my old checks -- I don't remember what the studio fee was, but it was hundreds of dollars. And I got off quite cheaply, compared to some folks I've talked with. Why do you think I'm looking for an amateur partner.

And, from what I've inferred from this board, collegiate comps are considerably less expensive than publicly promoted events, even for amateur couples. Is that true? A question for anyone who's done both?

[pygmalion]

It was $1495 -- $795 for the studio/teacher's fee/$700 for entries. A bargain. :roll: It actually was discounted, because that teacher had lower prices when multiple students entered. If I had been going it alone, It would have cost me twice as much.

[Chris Stratton]

And, from what I've inferred from this board, collegiate comps are considerably less expensive than publicly promoted events, even for amateur couples. Is that true? A question for anyone who's done both?

Actually, most college hosted comps now are publically promoted events for amateur couples. They just don't have large advertising budgets so a lot of the promotion is putting up posters and buying program adds... at other college hosted comps.

The three non-collegiate comps we did this spring were MAC (The northeast USABDA regional), USISTD's Eastern US Championships, and the Spring Fling USABDA comp at the Battista's studio. All were I think between $40-50 person for a reasonable number of entries. (MAC for example has a hard limit of four levels * styles, as larger college comps like MIT are also having to impose) . The big expense difference between these and college comps was actually that their sanctions required registering as a competitor with USABDA or the NDCA - other than that it was often much the same pool of judges and competitors that you'd find in a collegiate comp held in that location.

There have been times when I actually thought a weekend with a comp cost less than one without, because the comp might prompt us to cancel a lesson or two.

[Purr]

It was $1495 -- $795 for the studio/teacher's fee/$700 for entries. A bargain. :roll: It actually was discounted, because that teacher had lower prices when multiple students entered. If I had been going it alone, It would have cost me twice as much.

Well, $700 is what I could expect for 20 entries at $35 per entry.

If/when I enter another competition, I want an complete accounting of expenses. I should have been a bean counter. :wink:

[pygmalion]

Hey. If they're YOUR beans, you have every right to count them. :wink: 8) And I agree with you. What runs up the price for pro-am is all the add-ons. First, the teacher/studio's mark-up, whatever that is. Then, hotel fees, travel expenses, the teacher's time and expenses ... It adds up into big bucks before you know it.


Actually, let me add another nuance. Check out some of the individual comp web sites. Sometimes, what makes a comp expensive is the comp itself. Not all comps are priced the same, so shop around.

[tasche]

Well, let me ask you a question.

Would you sign a lease for an apartment for one year that you were bound to, if you could find the equivalent or better, on a month-to-month rental basis? To me, there has to be a very big incentive to sign a contract when there is direct competition that doesn't require it?

But in the case of an apartment lease having a yearlong contract actually protects the tenant as well as the landlord as they can't be kicked out withou reasonable cause. In a month to month lease it can be terminated with only 30 days notice.

Not sure if a dance contract provides any protection to the student

[mamboqueen]

You are right, Tasche. And actually, even without a lease, tenants appear to have more rights than landlords. Probably not a good analogy on my part.

My basic comment on the whole contract issue is that they are drafted by some lawyer to protect the franchise/studio and are not tailored to each student's needs. The students probably can't have changes made, nor would most probably think to ask to.

[Kitty]

Hey. If they're YOUR beans, you have every right to count them. :wink: 8) And I agree with you. What runs up the price for pro-am is all the add-ons. First, the teacher/studio's mark-up, whatever that is. Then, hotel fees, travel expenses, the teacher's time and expenses ... It adds up into big bucks before you know it.

Teachers' time is expensive.

But with the rest of your statement I disagree. When our team went to MIT we had to pay travel expenses, and hotel, too. So it is not what makes pro-am particularly expensive.
It is the way of life that makes it expensive. We had 3 persons in each room, while most pro-am people probably each get a separate room. We drive our own cars to comps, or rent a mini bus, and drive it ourselves, that cuts costs a lot too. Just collegiate people are ready to put up with inconviniences... We didn't pick an expensive hotel either... And when we are on a trip we don't mind eating at a McDonald's.

[mamboqueen]

Okay, Kitty....we cram 2-4 people in a room at our pro/am comps and since any McDonalds meal will automatically size us out of our dresses, we have to order an expensive lo-cal, lo-fat, lo-carb meals, our food budget is also considerably higher.

[Chris Stratton]

OH YEAH?

We're so cheap we take the $10 chinatown bus and crash on each other's floors!

;-)

More seriously, I think one of the things that drives the expense of pro-am comps up even higher that it has to be is that there is often a lot of pressure to stay at the hotel where the comp is being held rather than wherever you can get the best deal, attend an expensive banquet, etc. It's often a luxury event.

[Kitty]

Taking into account buying all costumes and lessons etc. I think its probably reasonable to say that competing ProAm in the states is around 10 times more expensive than dancing amateur in the UK. Personally I doubt that anyone improves faster doing ProAm than they do doing Am...

The only reason not to do Am that I can see is that finding a partner is difficult, but that aside, it still sounds outrageously expensive!


dancing amateur in US is cheaper too. However, probably still twice as expensive as what you described: in July I'm going to non-collegiate comp and the entry cost is 75 bucks/couple + admission to the ballroom is $30 per person...

[Angelo]

Okay, Kitty....we cram 2-4 people in a room at our pro/am comps and since any McDonalds meal will automatically size us out of our dresses, we have to order an expensive lo-cal, lo-fat, lo-carb meals, our food budget is also considerably higher.


Haven't you heard? Mcdonald's now sell's health conscious adult "happy meals" :roll:

[mamboqueen]

Angelo: I just had one. A salad with coated chicken and bacon. It was okay, but I'm not convinced it's *that* healthy. And of course, I had to swipe some of my kids' fries, so that didn't help.

So, if you're amateur and it's $75 to compete, how many dances does that get you? Do they not charge by the dance for am/am??

Gotta find me a pah-tner!

[Kitty]

Okay, Kitty....we cram 2-4 people in a room at our pro/am comps and since any McDonalds meal will automatically size us out of our dresses, we have to order an expensive lo-cal, lo-fat, lo-carb meals, our food budget is also considerably higher.

I see:-)

But don't say thats a pro-am thing...

[Kitty]

Angelo: I just had one. A salad with coated chicken and bacon. It was okay, but I'm not convinced it's *that* healthy. And of course, I had to swipe some of my kids' fries, so that didn't help.

So, if you're amateur and it's $75 to compete, how many dances does that get you? Do they not charge by the dance for am/am??

Gotta find me a pah-tner!

unlimited 2-dance events = 16 dances for $75 per couple = 8 2-dance events. sometimes they charge per dance at some comps, I heard.
At this comp 2-dance events are $30 each, or $75 per couple if you enter all of them. Only the competitive dances offered - no peabodies salsas merengues.

[Chris Stratton]

Angelo: I just had one. A salad with coated chicken and bacon. It was okay, but I'm not convinced it's *that* healthy. And of course, I had to swipe some of my kids' fries, so that didn't help.


You can get it with uncoated, grilled chicken you know... Just watch out for the dressing.


So, if you're amateur and it's $75 to compete, how many dances does that get you? Do they not charge by the dance for am/am??

For the comps I've seen offering a $100 or less per couple amatuer package that generally gets you as many entries as you are allowed to do period. Either effectively unlimited within the elgibility rules, or limited to say doing a maximum of 4 style/level combinations to to keep the duration of the event within bounds.

[Laura]

So, if you're amateur and it's $75 to compete, how many dances does that get you? Do they not charge by the dance for am/am??

It depends.

Most amateur competitions I've seen do not have single-dance events, except for the lowest level at some collegiate competitions. Rather, you enter a multi-dance event for your level and style. For example, our Gold Syllabus Latin event is Cha Cha, Samba, Rumba, and Jive. You have to dance all four, one right after the other. Often there are enough dancers so that you have to dance multiple rounds...so for your entry fee for just one event you might end up dancing 8 or 12 dances!

Some competitions have an "all you can dance" pricing policy, some have an "your fees include entering X events policy, extra events cost Y," and some have a per-event pricing policy. Still, the prices come out very small as compared to Pro/Am! (By the way, I'm one of the people who does both Pro/Am and Amateur, and have been doing combinations of the two for about seven years now.)

[Kitty]

For the comps I've seen offering a $100 or less per couple amatuer package that generally gets you as many entries as you are allowed to do period. Either effectively unlimited within the elgibility rules, or limited to say doing a maximum of 4 style/level combinations to to keep the duration of the event within bounds.

exactly!

[mamboqueen]

Wow. I probably didn't need to feel the pain of those low prices!

Welcome back, Laura. Hope you enjoyed your trip.

Out of curiosity, why do you do both?

[Laura]

Because I enjoy it.

I started doing Pro/Am about seven years ago, and during the ensuing time have had a variety of amateur partners also. The amateurs come and go -- people quit dancing, or get busy at their jobs and take breaks, or move away, or get injured and have to take off nearly a year -- but my Pro/Am teacher has been constant all this time.

I don't spent a lot of money on Pro/Am, I've figured out how over the years to get the most for my money and so have never ever paid the kind of astronomical costs to compete that you sometimes seem bandied about. I'm fortunate in that my teacher is an independent and is always completely up front with me about what the prices are. Other than his own per-dance fees, he charges the competition's "list" price for entries and tickets (no mark-up), and we split his airfare and hotel amongst all the students he travels with. I live in an area with a lot of local competitions, so I usually only travel out-of-town once or twice per year anyway.

[robin]

Well, $700 is what I could expect for 20 entries at $35 per entry.

Sorry if I seem particularly ignorant, but how can you enter 20 events in one competitions? I don't think I've ever entered more than 4 events in one comp (two levels at both ballroom and latin), though I guess you could do 8 if you wanted to do american style as well as international, but 20? Or do they just repeat events seeing you have to travel so far?

Also, 20 events is a lot of dancing! If you do well and make the final in each you would typically dance QF+SF+F = 3 rounds x 5 dances = 15 dances x 20 events = 300 dances or 8+ hours of actual competing! Even spread over a couple of days that's a lot of dancing!!!

While I'm at it with stupid question: On the "Yankee Classic" website there appear to be 14 different levels in Pro/Am, as well as 12 age classes, for each of modern/latin/smooth/rhythm. Do all of these events really take place? That's like 600+ events... There must be a lot of dancers, and I can't see how you can fit 600 events in 4 days, especially when there's still amateur and professional events on top!

I really hope i can make it to a comp in the US sometime, it sounds very interesting, and I like the idea of having a 4-day long festival... most events in the UK are single day, presumably because it's easy to travel almost anywhere in the country in a few hours...

[Laura]

In Pro/Am the events are usually one-dance contests, except for Scholarship events and so-called Championships, which are multi-dance events. It's quite rare that you have enough people for a semi-final in the one-dance contests, and I've only ever been in quarter-finals at at one competition, so in general if a Pro/Am dancer is entered 20 events, she (or he) will dance just 20 dances.

As far the plethora of age/ability levels, all of them are offered but many have no entries. There's not really that many dancers, if you go to enough of these things you see the same people over and over again. Most of the time that I was competing in Pro/Am Standard I danced against the same three or four ladies everywhere I went. The one exception to all of this is in the aforementioned Scholarship events, where the age and sex and ability sub-levels are collapsed such that there is but one Silver Pro/Am Standard Scholarship event, for example. In these events you get a lot more people, and semi-finals are common, and quarter-finals are not rare (when the economy is good).

[tasche]

Alot of the time several events are danced in the same heat about 2-3 events per heat. That cuts down the time alot and also not ever event has entries.

Its a system of trying to keep everyone happy. I would be content to be a little less happy and a little moe challanged.

[Chris Stratton]

Even in the relatively well populated world of college comps, it's really only at bronze and silver that you are likley to find a semifinal at any little comp - gold and open often turning out to be incomplete finals. At the larger ones of course bronze and silver can be 4 or more rounds and gold and each of two open divisions 3 - but that doesn't happen every weekend.

Sanctioned adult competitions tend to be very small incomplete finals in syllabus with maybe a semifinal at the higher open levels. Some of the USABDA regionals though are now quite large with a lot of college-circuit regulars filling out (and often dominating) the lower and middle divisions.

[robin]

OK, thanks for the info everyone!

I was already thinking that $35/event didn't sound bad if it included paying the teacher, but $35 for one dance sounds pretty horrendous! And if there often is no competition, why bother competing? Surely it's just an extremely expensive and short private lesson...

There are some very small comps in the UK, but the ones I've chosen to go to usually had at least a SF in intermediate, pre-champ and advanced and often a QF. Most of the time collegiate comps keep me busy enough where entries range from 100+ (Beginners, up to 7 rounds), to ~20 (Advanced, 3 rounds), with Novice and Intermediate levels in between, both in terms of standard and number of entries.

Anyway, I'd rather go out in the first round in a "proper" competition than dancing in a final with only one other couple! Wouldn't it be better to have only 3 or 4 levels and maybe only 5 age groups, so that there would be a purpose to these events? Waiting to be recalled is the most exciting (or often agonizing) point in a competition!

[Genesius Redux]

Back to the original question of the thread--contracts and their usefulness. I'm sure Pygmalion knew I couldn't resist this one once I saw it.

Those contracts they ask you to sign aren't worth the spit it takes to hold them in a crumpled wad!

Dance studios can't obligate you contractually to continue to take lessons from them. You're not buying a car, you don't have anything in your possession, and if you haven't taken the lessons you've paid for, they're obligated to refund your money, whatever you may have signed.

There ain't a contract in the world that can't be challenged. Including the Constitution. That's the basis of our system of government.

As one person observed--was it Mamboqueen?--the only a contract could presumably do is give you a cheaper rate for lessons. If then you paid up front and decided to stop, the only thing they could really do is hold you accountable for the full cost of the lessons if you didn't sign the contract.

Right now the owner of the dance studio where I started is having his butt hoisted up on a pole just because he's tried to be high-handed with students whose money he should have refunded. And I am cheering his demise from the bottom of my soul.

My teacher goes lesson by lesson. She gives me her own discount for a five lesson package, and I'm sure if I could afford more she'd come up with another deal for that. I try to make sure that every month at least I hand her a check for five lessons, so that she knows she can count on me. There have been months when I couldn't, and she herself was the first person to tell me to take care of other needs first (she's even told me to call her if things got tight and I needed dinner).

That's a relationship that's based on trust and accountability. After that, could I ever listen to some smarmy greasy-moustached car salesman pitch me a package. Simple answer--"Take your package and shove it so that the tip is poking right up into your esophagus."

Contracts! Marry Freddy! Ha!

[pygmalion]

Yes. I suspected you'd have your say, GR. The clause depreciating lessons really needs to be taken to court. I doubt that would stand up to scrutiny.

And Yay! I'm glad your former studio's manager is being hoisted on his own petard. Live by the sword; die by the sword.

[pygmalion]

(By the way, I'm one of the people who does both Pro/Am and Amateur, and have been doing combinations of the two for about seven years now.)

Do you recommend that? I'm toying with the idea. Seems like the best of both worlds.

[Laura]

Wouldn't it be better to have only 3 or 4 levels and maybe only 5 age groups, so that there would be a purpose to these events? Waiting to be recalled is the most exciting (or often agonizing) point in a competition!

You're making the mistake of applying logic to a situation that is based on maximizing profit to the organizers and teachers. :-)

[pygmalion]

Amen to that, Laura. :? :lol:

[Laura]

Do you recommend that? I'm toying with the idea. Seems like the best of both worlds.

I recommend it if you truly enjoy dancing in competitions with your teacher and if you also find an amateur partner who doesn't mind that you do it. I've never actually met anyone who minded, but it's always good to talk about it rather than assuming that the partner doesn't have an opinion. I especially recommend it if you do a style with your teacher that you don't do with your amateur partner -- that way the partnerships are adjuncts to each other, and it also solves the problem of you really wanting to do a certain style but your amateur partner not wanting to do it.

Eventually you might want to scale back on the Pro/Am and focus on the amateur partnership...that's one of those things that you'll just know when you're ready for it.

[Genesius Redux]

Yes. I suspected you'd have your say, GR. The clause depreciating lessons really needs to be taken to court. I doubt that would stand up to scrutiny.

Being done, right now, in Tennessee. If you ever need to be in touch with an attorney who has fought this fight, even if in another state, I can put you in touch.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, GR. As usual, you're there in support of a friend. Hugs. :friend:

[Chris Stratton]

Wouldn't it be better to have only 3 or 4 levels and maybe only 5 age groups, so that there would be a purpose to these events? Waiting to be recalled is the most exciting (or often agonizing) point in a competition!

You're making the mistake of applying logic to a situation that is based on maximizing profit to the organizers and teachers. :-)

While that's often a major factor, it's not the only driving cause. One of the more legitimate reasons often given for having a lot of fine-grained category distinctions is to solve the problem of a teacher who has two students more or less at the same level. Amateur couples often do end up dancing against the friends we train next to, but with pro-am the teacher can't very well clone himself!

[pygmalion]

Yes. That is a legitimate reason for all the categories. Often, it does help. However, there are other cases in which one student uses the loopholes to do hundreds of entries in one comp, enriching the pro quite a bit in the process.

[Purr]

Well, $700 is what I could expect for 20 entries at $35 per entry.

Sorry if I seem particularly ignorant, but how can you enter 20 events in one competitions?

The entries I'm referring to are freestyle (single dance) entries, not multi-dance or scholarship entries. A typical freestyle heat last about 1 1/2 minutes. And the levels/age groups I've entered typically have not had enough (more than 8) competitors to warrant multiple rounds of dancing.

I don't think 20 entries is all that much.

[pygmalion]

Yes. They were single dance events. And no, twenty isn't nearly enough dancing for an all-day comp.

[Purr]

Yes. They were single dance events. And no, twenty isn't nearly enough dancing for an all-day comp.

I agree. If I'm going to go to a competition again, I'm going to enter enough events to make it worth my while to go. All I've done has been freestyle entries.

[Kitty]

Yes. They were single dance events. And no, twenty isn't nearly enough dancing for an all-day comp.

It is very much enough at collegiate comps where there are multile rounds. Because then it means like 60 dances (+ costume changes in between + cheering for your friends).

[Chris Stratton]

"and you should already have amazing stamina because we're going to enter
everything in sight"

[robin]

I don't think 20 entries is all that much.

Over hear any "normal" event is at least 3, but usually 4 or 5 dances and at least 3 rounds... in which case 20 entries would be a lot ;). I can see how it's not much if you only get to dance for a minute and half...

Some comps (including all national ranking events) now are also doing a repechage in the first round. Basically if you are trying to go from 40 to 24 you recall 12 and the remaining 28 dance again for the last 12 places. As a results everyone gets to dance at least twice, and the judges get a second chance to look at the couples as well. I think this is a very good format!