Exercises For A Stiff Upper Half

[Vince A]

I had some Pro-Am practice sessions this past weekend, and I videotaped all the dances.
I'll watch them over and over until they are memorized, then do them until the muscle memory kicks in.

I know that we are our own worst critics when it comes to watching a video of ourselves, but my upper body seems very stiff - too much Waltz? - and my right arm seems out of sync with the rest of my body.

I want to be smooth and flowing with soft arms in, say NC2S, maybe somewhat more dynamic in Cha Cha, and very expressive in WCS and ECS.

The Waltz and my other dances are OK.

Does anyone have any exercises, or suggestions for things that I can practice, maybe in front of a mirror, etc?

[msc]

First of all your upper body really shouldn't be stiff in waltz, but that leads to a very long story of swing and sway and stretched vs. stiff and leading from the center,so I'll just stop there.

I was stiff as a brick when I started less than 4 years ago, and now I have a great deal of upper body flexibility. I improved through repition, just always trying to make the ribs lead the hips in the latin dances (including WCS, to a lesser extent.) I also tend to shift my ribs around while listening to the radio in the car ... interestingly enough, Michael Kiehm suggests the same.

[DanceMentor]

In Latin, as you settle into your right hip, let your left shoulder blade settle back. As you settle into your left hip let your right shoulder blade settle back. After a while you can start to have a figure 8 motion with your shoulders just like the hips (but opposite). The shoulder movement should be lss pronounced than the hips.

In smooth, watch out for the right shoulder coming forward too much. Remember you are allowed to bend at the right elbow joint to open the lady into promenade just as she is allowed to bend at the left shoulder joint. Also remember that, just like in Latin, you are going to have one side of the rib cage stretching. For example, when you are developing step 2 of the twinkle the left side is growing.

[Vince A]

msc/DM:

Thanks . . . what I'm reading is do "rib isolations" . . . practice them, the use them in a contra-body movement??? I'm sitting here banging out these words, and "shifting the ribs" at the same time. I'll heed the words!

I've seen quite a few articles on just this very thing. Guess I'll download them to add what you said.

Thanks again.

[msc]

Good man, vince. Once you can shift and roll your ribcage, that opens the door to all the intricate shaping in Latin and Standard. It also vastly increases both the power and control of your lead.

One more thing (well, there's a lot of other dtails, but this one is good to know from the start)... when you move the ribs, always think of moving the bottom rib.

[SDsalsaguy]

One more thing (well, there's a lot of other dtails, but this one is good to know from the start)... when you move the ribs, always think of moving the bottom rib.

Excellent point msc! – otherwise one ends up tending to move the shoulders, which is exactly what you're trying not to do in Latin!

[DanceMentor]

Another point about the ribs:
If you are thinking of stretching the left side, DO NOT think of shrinking the right side (another cause for too much shoulder movement).

[SDsalsaguy]

Another point about the ribs:
If you are thinking of stretching the left side, DO NOT think of shrinking the right side (another cause for too much shoulder movement).

Too true! In fact think about stretching the right side and just stretching the left side even more!

[Vince A]

WOW! Thanks to all three of you . . .

I tried it at my desk, then went into the bathroom to see what it looked like in the mirror. I got a few looks, but what the hey???

Keeping in mind, what all three of you wrote . . . "I LOOK GOOD." I even noticed that my hips were doing something different and that my straight leg/bent leg took on a somewhat different look. I was probably a little more over my lead foot???

Can't wait until it gets even better . . . msc . . . 4 years???

Why didn't any of my instructors tell me this? Are they too busy teaching me the basics and routines?

[msc]

msc . . . 4 years???

Ummmm ... could you repeat the question?

Why didn't any of my instructors tell me this? Are they too busy teaching me the basics and routines?

Depends on the teacher. A lot of this stuff is Int'l Latin technique, which is not necessarily well understood or respected on the WCS/country scene. Even those who understand may feel uncomfortable teaching these techniques, especially since most guys take to this stuff like toddlers take to green veggies.

[Vince A]

msc wrote:

I was stiff as a brick when I started less than 4 years ago, and now I have a great deal of upper body flexibility.

This is what I was jokingly referring to.

OK. So now I know I'll never be taught this by an instructor, but will have to get via the "Net???"

I've been at it all day. I can feel the stretch more than I ever could have imagined!

Again . . . thanks.

[SDsalsaguy]

Why didn't any of my instructors tell me this? Are they too busy teaching me the basics and routines?

Hey Vince, glad its helping! msc is right, much of this is Latin technique...but, the stretch one side and the other side more is actually international ballroom technique more then anything else (although it does, of course, aply to Latin shaping as well).

As far as why you haven't been taught it, I don't know...

As for myself, I have all of this stuff in my head but will have an interesting time, to say the very least, trying to aply it now that I'm re-starting ballroom...

[Vince A]

SDsalsaguy,
It is most definitely helping . . . and as far as "much of this is a Latin technique . . .

I do Swing, some Latin, some Ballroom, and Country. I had some privates last night and noticed, just by doing somewhat more R or L stretching, my lead in the 2 Step now comes more from my center/rib cage in comparison to using an arm and turning my shoulder - or forcing a contrabody stretch! I assume that the Waltz would benefit, but haven't had that practice yet this week!

Obviously, the Cha Cha will, and it is my second favorite dance. NC2S should use it. WCS, ECS, Triple 2, and Triple Step . . . I'm not sure, but I will find out!

My next private is Thursday. I forgot to ask her last night "why she isn't teaching it." I know she does do it . . . I've noticed it before, but was unsure how to accomplish it.

I'm just starting ballroom and don't have it my head. But I will. I certainly see the benefits of it, and am convinced that it is "a must do type of thing."

[SDsalsaguy]

Hey Vince,

Hmmm, I wonder if there are some phenomena whereby teachers are: (A) too unaware themselves, (B) teach it, or (C) take it too for granted?

I say this because I could imagine an instructor who does something themselves but doesn't really think about, or maybe even realize, that they are doing so, accordingly, neglect to teach it. At least this one dynamic, if indeed in play, would relate back to the thread about the possible disconnect between good dancing and good teaching, i.e. you don't go to someone to whom everything comes naturally if it doesn't come at all naturally to you, etc.

Anyway, just a thought...

[Vince A]

Ditto on the Hmmmm, SD . . .

It is probably a little of A, B, and C.

I think that just maybe these things are what is taught as we approach mid-to-upper divisions, levels, etc. Our Pros, or teachers may use it to insure that edge over our competition . . . or maybe they believe that as we are growing in our dance, that getting the basics, learning the routines, competing on the floor without too many mistakes IS enough . . . and too keep us competing and/or coming back for more! Then all that is left is the real fine tuning . . . possibly the differences between local competitiors and State competitors and finally World or International competitors.

I really don't want to believe it to be this way, so I'll pick A and C. I would hope that we would be taught those things first, right along with CBPM, centering, the foot positions, etc.

I think I'm back to Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm . . .

[msc]

I still have to go with answer (D), which is that most guys just don't want to learn this stuff. SD, you've surely seen enough competitions, how many US National Finalist men dance their ribs and back strongly (I realize this is changing with the Russian/Slavic wave?)

[SDsalsaguy]

I still have to go with answer (D), which is that most guys just don't want to learn this stuff. SD, you've surely seen enough competitions, how many US National Finalist men dance their ribs and back strongly (I realize this is changing with the Russian/Slavic wave?)
Different issue, the question was why this wasn't taught – lack of execution is a different matter then lack of informational transmission, no?

[WCSgal]

Well, I might get blasted for this....I am amateur in ballroom and so forth, but for me.....jazz dancing and belly dancing....that really helps stiffness and isolations. I was taught isolations early in my dance years, and I have practiced in front of the mirror alot...I feel dumb at times, but when I DO it on the floor, the crowd doesn't think it is dumb. Belly dancing really helps use lots of muscles....that is my story and I am sticking to it! just my opinion....

[SDsalsaguy]

Well, I might get blasted for this....I am amateur in ballroom and so forth, but for me.....jazz dancing and belly dancing....that really helps stiffness and isolations. I was taught isolations early in my dance years, and I have practiced in front of the mirror alot...I feel dumb at times, but when I DO it on the floor, the crowd doesn't think it is dumb. Belly dancing really helps use lots of muscles....that is my story and I am sticking to it! just my opinion....

Why would you get "blasted" for such a statement?

Jazz is definitely among the best of the best dance forms regarding isolations. And, while I have no personal experience with belly dancing, I could easily see where this would be of assistance in a similar manner. As best I can understand the forms I would still contend that, overall, jazz would be more universally applicable and beneficial but, by definition, any form of bodily mastery can only be a boon to any other such activity.

[msc]

Different issue, the question was why this wasn't taught

I think it depends on the context. If the subject is Int'l Latin, then sure the teacher should go ahead and teach rib/hip action, but even still, I don't know if that will hold many guys' attention, just based on empirical evidence. In WCS/Country, you rarely see much of that kind of stuff, and almost none among the guys. Usually that world is dominated by patterns and such, and not strength/smoothness/character of movement.

[WCSgal]

Oh, sometimes I know how these conversations can get too disagreeable and this one is right and this one is wrong...but I think anything that helps YOU (and me) look better, dance better, feel better, must be good, it releases all those good endorphins and dancing IS social for most of us, more competitive for some (I like to compete to have a GOOD time!) But I tell you, bellly dancing is something that is amazing for a great waistline and ribs, etc (especially after children!)

I enjoy reading about the other viewers and their opinions and statements from dances that I am not so proficient in (lack of practice and time), but it helps me when I am asked by those other dancers that I have some info...I do have a great ballroom dance friend (we are partners on a swing team) and we actually look great....he still is ballroom, but with a little TUG ( :lol: ) I think we might be able to pull off a swing routine....we shall see!

[dancergal]

I just wanted to comment on this subject. In taking our first private from a different Pro this last weekend, she actually told this same thing to my partner. She said he needed more "middle body movement" and less shoulders. She told him to practice moving his rib cage in front of a mirror. When we took privates from a different Pro, he told us that he only gives us what we are ready to learn in our skill level. So if we're are still trying to master footwork, he doesn't want to overload us with style and body movement until we are ready for it.

[Vince A]

Ok . . . last night, I asked my Pro why she didn't teach this . . .

She replied "I do teach it to her students who need it."

She paid me a compliment, saying that "you do it naturally, and I don't have to work on that with you. Although, in time I will learn to do it more, as I need to lead much more with my center." Which to me is "use those ribs!"

I guess, now that I am aware of it, and what I have read from msc and SD, I will practice much more in front of mirror.

Thanks to all who contributed to this topic. I have gleened a great deal of info.

[borikensalsero]

Just adding to what everyone else mentioned...

Here are a few things that I tell people when they want to add movement to their upper body.

Work on flexibility by:

1- Moving your stomach area back and forth, side to side, and eventually roll it in circles. Concentrate on the middle of your stomach if you need help finding a center point. Do this standing straight with a slight bend of the knees, Then do it bending the knees to almost a squat. Lastly if you want added difficulty do it while bending your knees to a squat position then up again. You might look crazy but it will help loosen your ribcage, back, and stomach muscles. Streching a lot helps as well. If you can't do it by squating down and up while moving the stomach, don't worry about it. The first two are enough.

2- Bring your chin to your chest then let your shoulders drop, then follow them with your spinal-cord, follow the shoulders slowly. Notice that your back begins to arch following the shoulders. Do that until you've reached maximum bend, then do the same going up to a straight position. Do it a couple of times. Remember to always allow the shoulders to hang enabling the back muscles to do all the work.

Hope it helps a bit.

[Vince A]

Just adding to what everyone else mentioned...

Here are a few things that I tell people when they want to add movement to their upper body.

Work on flexibility by:

1- Moving your stomach area back and forth, side to side, and eventually roll it in circles. Concentrate on the middle of your stomach if you need help finding a center point. Do this standing straight with a slight bend of the knees, Then do it bending the knees to almost a squat. Lastly if you want added difficulty do it while bending your knees to a squat position then up again. You might look crazy but it will help loosen your ribcage, back, and stomach muscles. Streching a lot helps as well. If you can't do it by squating down and up while moving the stomach, don't worry about it. The first two are enough.

2- Bring your chin to your chest then let your shoulders drop, then follow them with your spinal-cord, follow the shoulders slowly. Notice that your back begins to arch following the shoulders. Do that until you've reached maximum bend, then do the same going up to a straight position. Do it a couple of times. Remember to always allow the shoulders to hang enabling the back muscles to do all the work.

Hope it helps a bit.
I printed this out . . will give it a try when I'm able to get to it at home on the practice floor! I really appreciate the advice . . .

Thanks you,
Vince

[borikensalsero]

Just adding to what everyone else mentioned...

Here are a few things that I tell people when they want to add movement to their upper body.

Work on flexibility by:

1- Moving your stomach area back and forth, side to side, and eventually roll it in circles. Concentrate on the middle of your stomach if you need help finding a center point. Do this standing straight with a slight bend of the knees, Then do it bending the knees to almost a squat. Lastly if you want added difficulty do it while bending your knees to a squat position then up again. You might look crazy but it will help loosen your ribcage, back, and stomach muscles. Streching a lot helps as well. If you can't do it by squating down and up while moving the stomach, don't worry about it. The first two are enough.

2- Bring your chin to your chest then let your shoulders drop, then follow them with your spinal-cord, follow the shoulders slowly. Notice that your back begins to arch following the shoulders. Do that until you've reached maximum bend, then do the same going up to a straight position. Do it a couple of times. Remember to always allow the shoulders to hang enabling the back muscles to do all the work.

Hope it helps a bit.
I printed this out . . will give it a try when I'm able to get to it at home on the practice floor! I really appreciate the advice . . .

Thanks you,
Vince

You are very welcome... Don't get discouraged by the new movements, or lack of success. The moves will seem foreign at first but when you get it down, you'll love it. :D

[Vince A]

I'll let you know how it works!!! :D

[pygmalion]

This is a great topic. Thanks for bringing it back to life, borikensalsero.

I must be one of the lucky ones, because, during my first lesson with my current coach, we talked about these very things. And of course, watching him and me side-by-side in the mirror is enough to keep me aware. He's SO good at this stuff, and I look "stiff as a board" next to him. Much better than last year, though.

Still, the descriptions that all of you have written out will help me practice more effectively.

Thanks.

[Vince A]

This is a great topic. Thanks for bringing it back to life, borikensalsero.

I must be one of the lucky ones, because, during my first lesson with my current coach, we talked about these very things. And of course, watching him and me side-by-side in the mirror is enough to keep me aware. He's SO good at this stuff, and I look "stiff as a board" next to him. Much better than last year, though.

Still, the descriptions that all of you have written out will help me practice more effectively.

Thanks.
Hiya Jenn,
With all the help that I've received here from fellow dancers, etc., I've improved bunches. I cannot wait to get back on the floor (hopefully this weekend) and get some videos of the vast improvement over last year!

The help on this site has contributed so much to my dancing.

[pygmalion]

Thanks to you, too, Vince. You've definitely passed it on, and helped lots of others, me especially. You should see how good my ripples are getting!


Thanks.

Jenn

[DanceMentor]

Moving your stomach area back and forth, side to side, and eventually roll it in circles.

I had one teacher tell me that many of the top pros actually 'pulse' their solar plexus to cha-cha-cha, one pulse for each cha. I tried to do it myseld, but all I could do was laugh. Has anyone every heard this or is it a myth?

[borikensalsero]

This is a great topic. Thanks for bringing it back to life, borikensalsero.

I must be one of the lucky ones, because, during my first lesson with my current coach, we talked about these very things. And of course, watching him and me side-by-side in the mirror is enough to keep me aware. He's SO good at this stuff, and I look "stiff as a board" next to him. Much better than last year, though.

Still, the descriptions that all of you have written out will help me practice more effectively.

Thanks.

You are very welcome pygmalion. I love reading the enthusiasm you guys write with. I get goose bumps from reading your posts. It makes me want to go out and dance the night away... :D The thank you is all mine.

[Vince A]

Just adding to what everyone else mentioned...

Here are a few things that I tell people when they want to add movement to their upper body.

Work on flexibility by:

1- Moving your stomach area back and forth, side to side, and eventually roll it in circles. Concentrate on the middle of your stomach if you need help finding a center point. Do this standing straight with a slight bend of the knees, Then do it bending the knees to almost a squat. Lastly if you want added difficulty do it while bending your knees to a squat position then up again. You might look crazy but it will help loosen your ribcage, back, and stomach muscles. Streching a lot helps as well. If you can't do it by squating down and up while moving the stomach, don't worry about it. The first two are enough.

2- Bring your chin to your chest then let your shoulders drop, then follow them with your spinal-cord, follow the shoulders slowly. Notice that your back begins to arch following the shoulders. Do that until you've reached maximum bend, then do the same going up to a straight position. Do it a couple of times. Remember to always allow the shoulders to hang enabling the back muscles to do all the work.

Hope it helps a bit.
My wife says I "look terribly funny," especially in the squatted position.

But wanted you to know that I'm trying to do it . . .

[Vince A]

I had one teacher tell me that many of the top pros actually 'pulse' their solar plexus to cha-cha-cha, one pulse for each cha. I tried to do it myseld, but all I could do was laugh. Has anyone every heard this or is it a myth?
This is true!

I had one lesson on this three weeks ago in San Jose. It is very difficult and to me, it looks silly on a male.

We have a Pro from Southern CA, who does this better than anyone that I've seen do it, coming to the studio this weekend for privates. She does it all the way through a full count of 1, 2, 3, 4, & 1 . . . :shock:

I am going to ask her to show me how to do it. Just for grins . . .

It does look good when others are doing it, but on me . . . nah!!!

[borikensalsero]

Just adding to what everyone else mentioned...

Here are a few things that I tell people when they want to add movement to their upper body.

Work on flexibility by:

1- Moving your stomach area back and forth, side to side, and eventually roll it in circles. Concentrate on the middle of your stomach if you need help finding a center point. Do this standing straight with a slight bend of the knees, Then do it bending the knees to almost a squat. Lastly if you want added difficulty do it while bending your knees to a squat position then up again. You might look crazy but it will help loosen your ribcage, back, and stomach muscles. Streching a lot helps as well. If you can't do it by squating down and up while moving the stomach, don't worry about it. The first two are enough.

2- Bring your chin to your chest then let your shoulders drop, then follow them with your spinal-cord, follow the shoulders slowly. Notice that your back begins to arch following the shoulders. Do that until you've reached maximum bend, then do the same going up to a straight position. Do it a couple of times. Remember to always allow the shoulders to hang enabling the back muscles to do all the work.

Hope it helps a bit.
My wife says I "look terribly funny," especially in the squatted position.

But wanted you to know that I'm trying to do it . . .

lol... She must be getting a good laugh. My instructor actually had me doing it in front of the class. I looked so funny, I actually lost my balance when I tried squating down and moving my upper body. Had I been a shy person I wouldn't have shown up to the next few classes. It's a good thing she actually looks good doing it because otherwise I would have never done it. :oops:

[Vince A]

I know what you mean when you say " lost my balance." It is difficult to do at first.

At first???

STILL!

[borikensalsero]

I know what you mean when you say " lost my balance." It is difficult to do at first.

At first???

STILL!

lol... You can try not going down all the way to a squat. I go all the way down because at times I get pretty low dancing salsa and don't want my upper half looking stiff.

[Vince A]

I'll keep "this" in mind!!!

Thanks again . . .

[borikensalsero]

I'll keep "this" in mind!!!

Thanks again . . .

Vince,
I just took a poll here at work and asked them to do what you are doing, then asked them to concentrate first in the mid-stomach, then on the lower rib-cage. My coworkers had an easier time moving concentration on the lower rib-cage than they did in mid-stomach. I feel them the same... Just thougth I'd let you know, maybe that will help you out.

Javier

[Vince A]

Javier, the stomach isolations were twice as hard as the rib ones. I agree with your co-workers . . . the ribs are much easier!

I have other exercises that J. Paul and others have sent me, and now adding your exercises to my workouts . . . WOW!

As we get older, this area tends to stiffen up because our neck muscles are no longer loose. So, when we turn, we turn our whole upper body. In everyday movements and on the dance floor! We can still do neck exercises, but we still look stiff. Doing all of these exercises, especially the rib and stomach ones, really loosen up the upper body.

Since May, my dancing has gone to the top. I cannot express how much it has changed . . . my appreciative thanks to all of you.

These exercises hsould be in the Beginner's Forum if and when it takes off!

[pygmalion]

When, not if. And yes, I think some including basic exercises is a great idea for beginners.

[borikensalsero]

Javier, the stomach isolations were twice as hard as the rib ones. I agree with your co-workers . . . the ribs are much easier!

I have other exercises that J. Paul and others have sent me, and now adding your exercises to my workouts . . . WOW!

As we get older, this area tends to stiffen up because our neck muscles are no longer loose. So, when we turn, we turn our whole upper body. In everyday movements and on the dance floor! We can still do neck exercises, but we still look stiff. Doing all of these exercises, especially the rib and stomach ones, really loosen up the upper body.

Since May, my dancing has gone to the top. I cannot express how much it has changed . . . my appreciative thanks to all of you.

These exercises hsould be in the Beginner's Forum if and when it takes off!

Great :D :D I'm glad to hear the rib concentration is much easier :D :D . Now, maybe your wife won't laugh at you, and balancing becomes easier. I'm so happy for you that your dancing has taken off. It is such a great feeling when you get out there and you spend your time loving the dance, instead of fighting with your body and mind to dance halfway decent. Just imagine how much fun you'll be having next may!

Yes, YES!! Upper half excersises should be a must not only for the begginer forum but in all classes. I was so disappointed when I changed studios and learned that my first instructor completely neglected to ever suggest exercises nor stress movement on the upper half of my body. My Arms and head motion was always stressed but never any attention to the torso. :cry:

Vince, I have only been in this site for a couple of weeks. And I can't begin to tell you the unbelievable amout of excelent information I read every day. I'm truly shocked!!! All Dancers should make it a must to become members of Dance-Forums.

[Vince A]

I sent a PM to the person who is getting the Beginner's Forum together, so that she might possibly add this to it! She agreed!

And, yes, I agree, it needs to also be added at a future date for everyone. You certainly brought out something that is so very true . . . all of my private lessons concentrated on where my head, arms, or feet should be, and very, very little on the torso. I may have been doing it correctly for the level of dance that I was doing, for me not to be corrected. But not according to the videos of myself that I saw!!!

This site IS amazing isn't it? Sometimes there is so much information that all I get done is reading this stuff!

Just keep putting the word out , and maybe many of those dancers will become a member. Why not? It's free, and the info is so worthwhile!

[SDsalsaguy]

Just keep putting the word out , and maybe many of those dancers will become a member. Why not? It's free, and the info is so worthwhile!
That's actually a good and real question Vince. Did everyone here sign up immediately? If not, how long was the dealy and why did you then join when you did? It's also free to just be a guest, so clearly there's more to it then that....

[Vince A]

I think that just getting them to check us out will win them over. Goota come up with something to get them beyond the "guest" point!

The site offers so much . . .

It is so hard to get the point across that you can improve your dancing just by reading something! Talk about low-cost private lessons!

It does happen an it has happened!

[SDsalsaguy]

Fair enough...but you can also read all the information here for free, so the question remains, what more is there to being a member that the guests are missing and/or missing out on?

[Vince A]

A ha . . . you sank in that time!

For me, it was the ability to login and be a part of the disussions. I did have something to offer and knew what most were talking about.

And some of the things that I read about, I wanted to learn more, so there was no choice . . . join or not be able to add my 2 cents . . .

[borikensalsero]

Fair enough...but you can also read all the information here for free, so the question remains, what more is there to being a member that the guests are missing and/or missing out on?

I saw salsa as on of the forums and I was all over it like flies on...

Well, interesting question...

Non-Members are missing.
1- The Humbleness of the members.
2- Members willingness to help.
3- No sexual material irrelevant to the topics.
4- NO SEXUAL MATERIAL, did I mention this already?
5- This site isn't a meat market.
6- Not only do we get to share our thoughts but learn about the passion other dancers share with you.
7- Everyone makes you feel like you are part of a family. My licenese is soon to read as my name, borikenSalsero Dance Forums.
8- Interchanging ideas, debating at a mature level.
9- Exposure to other dances which haven't been part of your life.
10- Love for DANCE!!! :mrgreen:

And...... workday? what workday? Is it 5PM already? :shock:

[pygmalion]

I signed up immediately, but it was coincidental. There was an active topic on the table that I felt I could contribute something to, the first time I logged in. Really, if I had taken time to browse around before jumping in, I might have felt intimidated. But I didn't know who I was dealing with, so I just threw my two cents worth in there.

And, incidentally, I didn't start really participating super actively until a new member came in with a dance/emotional question. The way everybody jumped in to rally around that person just won me over. When I read some of the responses in that thread, I thought ,"this is a group of super-nice, super-helpful and caring people. I'm in!"

That's when I really jumped in.

[Vince A]

603 posts . . . I'll say you jumped in!

We are fortunate to have you here with us . . .

Vince

[SDsalsaguy]

603 posts . . . I'll say you jumped in!

We are fortunate to have you here with us . . .

Vince

thats why she won the "Rapid Rise to Royalty Award!"...and why she deserves to keep it, even with the new ranking system :D

[Vince A]

I'll down a Margarita or two to that!!!

[d nice]

In WCS/Country, you rarely see much of that kind of stuff, and almost none among the guys. Usually that world is dominated by patterns and such, and not strength/smoothness/character of movement.

Well in the case of WCS it is because it is wrong. *shrug* you have the ability to change the flavor and character of a dance up to a point, but the motion being discussed here is actually contrary to the kind of movement wcs is all about.

The idea that wcs is pattern dominated and not strength/character of movement is ludicrous. You can look at any wcs champion (assuming we are talking in the competition world, though I can point out lots of amazing social dancers) who execute little in the way of intricate patterns but dominate the dance floor and competitions because of their movement while dancing.

[pygmalion]

603 posts . . . I'll say you jumped in!

We are fortunate to have you here with us . . .

Vince

thats why she won the "Rapid Rise to Royalty Award!"...and why she deserves to keep it, even with the new ranking system :D

Thanks, guys! :D :D

[d nice]

That is not to say that you shouldn't practice this kind of movement... it certainly will benefit your body awareness and improve your ability to isolate... but using it in swing is counterproductive if you are doing it in a non-ballroom style.

Personally I don't think contemporary jazz or lyrical for that fact really have much to offer for isolation... at least in comparison to latin dances, hip hop, belly dancing or vernacular jazz.

A non "dance" form that is great with flexibility and "soft strength" instead of "stiffness" is tai chi. Actually a lot of martial arts do this.

[Vince A]

The idea that wcs is pattern dominated and not strength/character of movement is ludicrous. You can look at any wcs champion (assuming we are talking in the competition world, though I can point out lots of amazing social dancers) who execute little in the way of intricate patterns but dominate the dance floor and competitions because of their movement while dancing.
d nice,
Great catch . . . I certanly didn't read it thorough the first time. Although I apprciate what they contributed for my Cha Cha and Salsa dancing!

You are so absolutely right. Good WCS dancing is not about patterns . . . IT IS pure strength/character of the movement . . . and can look absolutely breathtaking doing nothing more than the basics. Some of the best dances come from basics and hanging out there and playing for 8, 16, 24 counts - if you are counting! If you "hear" the music, even better!

Playing to the music is what it is all about, not learning and memorizing patterns, and then trying to make them fit into the music. It's better to make what you do look like it belongs to that music.

[SDsalsaguy]

Tai Chi is probably king in this department...but Aikido principles, especially those of blending weight and motion, are also very in sync with dancing as well.

[msc]

Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one, fellas.

[borikensalsero]

Tai Chi is probably king in this department...but Aikido principles, especially those of blending weight and motion, are also very in sync with dancing as well.

:shock: Imma have to stop following my brother around and making fun of him when he is doing Tai Chi and join him instead. Never did I ever think of it to help my dancing. God, that one went right over my head.

[borikensalsero]

Hey Vince,
I was at home the other day doing upper body exersices and thought of you. How is your upper half coming along?

[Vince A]

Hey Vince,
I was at home the other day doing upper body exersices and thought of you. How is your upper half coming along?
I've been doing them religiously!

Something must be working . . . I've been trying to get my back into shape after injuring a few weeks ago, and my wife and I were practicing out on our practice floor, and she said I felt different, as if my lead were coming much more from my center (and all this time I thought I had been doing that).

Anyway, she also said I was somewhat harder to follow, but she definitely could tell where I wanted her to go by just my center. She said it was something about my arms, but couldn't pinpoint it! Maybe too much arm?

It's probably me being somewhat stiffer due to the injury along with the exercises that I've been doing.

I'll try again this weekend, if not during this week!

I'll let you know!

[borikensalsero]

Hey Vince,
I was at home the other day doing upper body exersices and thought of you. How is your upper half coming along?
I've been doing them religiously!

Something must be working . . . I've been trying to get my back into shape after injuring a few weeks ago, and my wife and I were practicing out on our practice floor, and she said I felt different, as if my lead were coming much more from my center (and all this time I thought I had been doing that).

Anyway, she also said I was somewhat harder to follow, but she definitely could tell where I wanted her to go by just my center. She said it was something about my arms, but couldn't pinpoint it! Maybe too much arm?

It's probably me being somewhat stiffer due to the injury along with the exercises that I've been doing.

I'll try again this weekend, if not during this week!

I'll let you know!

Vince,
I am so excited for you man!!!

One question though, I know that for a muscle to fully and faster recover it must be exercised, but is your back to the point where exercising is beneficial and not counter-productive? Also, do you and your wife get into philosophical arguments over how things should be done on the dancefloor?