Close Embrace Clinic... A quandry of embraces

[Mario7]

I figure that I cannot go much further without choosing/committing to an embrace... please, jot down the pluses and minuses that you see for each of these two which are the only ones that I am considering.... mil gracias! :p
..ps-oh and please venture a name of both if it's possible. thks

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G9Nh4yPDG6c&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G9Nh4yPDG6c&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_JGwTcJJZ1I&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_JGwTcJJZ1I&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Mladenac]

It seems that you are still meandering through the vast field of the embrace.

I wrote it several times:

Pick up the one that is the most popular in your tango community.
I hope that you have a proper tango school for learning tango.
And when a foreigner comes adjust a little.

[AndaBien]

...Pick up the one that is the most popular in your tango community...

There is good reason to use this suggestion. Also, dance the embrace that you enjoy the most.

What difference does it make what it's called? All embraces are different anyway. "God made the animals: man made the species".

[opendoor]

Hi Mario, you look at the embrace from a point of view outside, and I think your embrace will already look very well. But this is only half the battle. If a really good following teacher comes around, have a private lesson with her and ask for the inner view (i.e. her feeling within the embrace). Only my suggestion.

Concerning the two vids: I would prefer Oscar y Georgina´s style. I had a workshop with Masci in my hometown, and I do not respond to him.

[Madahlia]

I don't think i would enjoy having to dance in the posture of the follower in the first example. I think it would be very painful in the lower back after a short while. The lady in the video has a very supple lower back, so she can respond well to the unnatural position, and it looks sexy and appealing, but nevertheless, I think it is an abuse of her body to be forced into that position.

The follower in the second example has a more relaxed, natural and comfortable posture in the embrace but somehow the dance seems to lack vitality, not sure why.

Can you tell us what you see as the major features of each embrace that you would be choosing between?

[JohnEm]

There is good reason to use this suggestion. Also, dance the embrace that you enjoy the most.

What difference does it make what it's called? All embraces are different anyway. "God made the animals: man made the species".

And I'm mystified now why you keep asking these questions.
Apart from the fact that I don't particularly like either, you must decide
for yourself. More than once you must have heard it said, or read, that
you should make tango your own.

Similarly you've clearly stated previously you're aiming for apilado, the
in line, heart to heart, chest to chest embrace. If that's what you want
then read/look and learn from Tango and Chaos. Neither Rick McGarrey's
words nor anyone's words here can make you dance, well or badly.

Only you can do that and you've shown an ability in the past to contradict
and ignore the consistent advice you'd requested and been given. So
choose a goal, preferably one you genuinely feel is achievable, and
get on with it.

[Mario7]

I don't think i would enjoy having to dance in the posture of the follower in the first example. I think it would be very painful in the lower back after a short while. The lady in the video has a very supple lower back, so she can respond well to the unnatural position, and it looks sexy and appealing, but nevertheless, I think it is an abuse of her body to be forced into that position.
The follower in the second example has a more relaxed, natural and comfortable posture in the embrace but somehow the dance seems to lack vitality, not sure why.
Can you tell us what you see as the major features of each embrace that you would be choosing between?
Yes, this I've come to see, too. Thank you very much. The first dance/embrace is more a performance style and the woman would have to practiced it a lot to be so adept. How about this one for a more doable one..also, I don't have a tango community (4 people?) unfortunately and I am preparing myself for B'aires!
My 'problem' is that I danced last night with a woman and she said 'give me more space to do that move'...which meant to open up to do a simple ocho cortado.. I told her 'no' that 'I won't break the connection'...ok, please let this political incorrectness go by and look instead at my problem..even my late practice partner was asking for 'more space' or to 'open up'...I told her that all the other guys will open up for her giros but I won't and in that way she will be able to do both....just pretend that somehow I'm a nice guy..the question is; am I correct on the technique??:confused: So, I'm trying to see if there is an embrace that will do it all...or almost all. I don't want to break the heart connection, it is the only way that I can experience tango bliss.:p And so, if the offset embrace will give the woman the room she needs..AND keep my connection, I really don't know, not having hardly any experience with the offset nor the 'V'. So, I'm mining your experiences ...thks

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/orgGazxNz64&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/orgGazxNz64&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Gssh]

[quote=Mario7;789339]...I told her 'no' that 'I won't break the connection'...ok, please let this political incorrectness go and see that this is my problem..the question is; am I correct on the technique??[\quote]

I am probably not the best person to give advice on just doing close embrace - my current preference is pure closed embrace, but i spent years during fluid embrace and open embrace and no embrace and even flirted a while with pulpo style leading with the legs (never got good at that :( - i really like the options he is playing with). Your approach is quite alien to me - in my experience doing a ocho cortado (and for that matter a giro) without opening up at all is very difficult for both the leader and follower, and it helped me personally a lot that i had explored them quite a bit while opening up - it is not easier to do them well that way, but the consequences of doing them badly are much more manageable and sometimes not even noticable.

Based on this experience my advice would be to open up - once you have completely debugged the opened up version you will be able to close it, and your followers won't even notice that you are not opening up anymore. Additionally i find it a bit questionable to just say "no" when the person you are dancing with requests something from you - she is your practive partner because as a leader we need the input from the follower to understand how something feels to her (in the best case she is able to lead, and let us feel how something feels, or another leader can show how a move should feel - there are a lot of things i never understood until somebody lead me, or, alternatively when i was able to feel what somebodies body was actually doing by having my hands on another leaders back and hip while they were leading something). If she feels it does not work the reality is that it does not work that way. Yes, your technique is wrong. And you are not going to be able to find what is wrong by simply insisting that it is not wrong - maybe it is just a tiny bit more dissociation that is needed, maybe your angle is a bit off, maybe you are a millisecond late or early - a good teacher can help you figure this out, but when working alone your best bet is to get some version working (by openign up, by using a different preamble, whatever), and then perfect that, meditate on it, tighten it up and modify it till it looks the way you want.

A lot of tango is in my experience about cultivating awareness of ones own and ones partners body. The prime example is for me always sacadas - they are almost impossible to lead when one starts off, and they become really, really trivial when a certain level of the awareness of the walk and the geometry of the embrace has sunk into ones subconsciousness. Pushing a move that does not work does in my experience not help - perfecting things that work opens up these new options naturally. Is is like playing MoO - there is a techtree, and one has to follow the branches :)

YMMV, 2cents, and all that
Gssh

[dchester]

I can't help you on this one. My embrace changes, depending on who I'm dancing with and what we are doing.

[AndaBien]

Mario, I would say the video you posted shows a V-embrace. Here is what I call Apilado: it's Cacho Dante, from whom I learned it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk

He does a couple of forward ochos at about 2:18. They are not ochos cortado, but it makes no difference. It is not necessary to open the embrace to do this movement.

I don't know why your partners would ask for more space. You do need to have enough room between yours and your partner's feet for her foot to pass through, but that is about where your feet are, not about the embrace.

[opendoor]

..won't break the connection

An embrace cannot brake at all, so it must be something else !

[JohnEm]

My 'problem' is that I danced last night with a woman and she said 'give me more space to do that move'...which meant to open up to do a simple ocho cortado.. I told her 'no' that 'I won't break the connection'...ok, please let this political incorrectness go by and look instead at my problem..even my late practice partner was asking for 'more space' or to 'open up'...I told her that all the other guys will open up for her giros but I won't and in that way she will be able to do both....just pretend that somehow I'm a nice guy..the question is; am I correct on the technique??:confused: So, I'm trying to see if there is an embrace that will do it all...or almost all. I don't want to break the heart connection, it is the only way that I can experience tango bliss.:p And so, if the offset embrace will give the woman the room she needs..AND keep my connection, I really don't know, not having hardly any experience with the offset nor the 'V'. So, I'm mining your experiences ...thks

The brief answer is dchester's.

You can prefer the embrace, you can prefer not to break the connection,
you can prefer to dance only with those partners who follow your chest
wherever it goes but it doesn't sound as if you have sufficient choice of partners.

You cannot contain someone who doesn't want to stay connected throughout
the dance. You cannot clamp her to your chest holding her there against
her will. The embrace is encouraging not controlling.

Ladies who want to break away for the giro need to be let go -
they'll come back to the embrace. If you want to stop them wanting to
break away then treat the giro as series of lead steps - forward crossing,
side step, back crossing, side step etc to the rhythm.
Some will still want to run off into a giro - so let them.

Neither the offset nor the V will sort this problem.
The problem is you and her. So work it out.

I am probably not the best person to give advice on just doing close embrace - my current preference is pure closed embrace, but i spent years during fluid embrace and open embrace and no embrace and even flirted a while with pulpo style leading with the legs (never got good at that :( - i really like the options he is playing with). Your approach is quite alien to me - in my experience doing a ocho cortado (and for that matter a giro) without opening up at all is very difficult for both the leader and follower, and it helped me personally a lot that i had explored them quite a bit while opening up - it is not easier to do them well that way, but the consequences of doing them badly are much more manageable and sometimes not even noticable.
And to make the point (again) of making your own mind up,
here is an opinion I don't agree with.

Ocho Cortados definitely are a close embrace movement. It's a signature
sequence of milongueros - only if you dance with a partner who has not
been taught a rotating cross do you have to open out (and release her
you should) as she interprets that movement incorrectly as an invitation
to a forward ocho instead of following your chest and allowing her free leg
to cross.

If she only knows the forward pivot, side step, back pivot, back step,
side step Giro you no choice but to let her go. She's probably got used
to the idea that the Giro is hers so let her get on with it.
Keep her loosely cradled and all will be well.

A lot of tango is in my experience about cultivating awareness of ones own and ones partners body. The prime example is for me always sacadas - they are almost impossible to lead when one starts off, and they become really, really trivial when a certain level of the awareness of the walk and the geometry of the embrace has sunk into ones subconsciousness. Pushing a move that does not work does in my experience not help - perfecting things that work opens up these new options naturally.Gssh

Without a doubt there's a lot of good sense here though.

[Mario7]

Mario, I would say the video you posted shows a V-embrace. Here is what I call Apilado: it's Cacho Dante, from whom I learned it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk
.
Hey dude, you just did me a BIG favor!.. That is one of my favorite videos and seeing it again now is seeing it at just the right time..THAT is my embrace. mil gracias:p

[Mario7]

The problem is you and her. So work it out..
I'm noticing that I like the social dance but I don't particularly like to dance socially.. it looks like I will only be dancing with those few woman (when I find them) who don't make me downgrade my dance. At this point that's the way it's best for me.

[Zoopsia59]

I don't think i would enjoy having to dance in the posture of the follower in the first example. I think it would be very painful in the lower back after a short while. The lady in the video has a very supple lower back, so she can respond well to the unnatural position, and it looks sexy and appealing, but nevertheless, I think it is an abuse of her body to be forced into that position.

I agree with what you say about the follower's posture, BUT....

I have had lessons with Oscar, and I assure you it was one of the most comfortable embraces I've been in and a totally enjoyable experience. In no way was I "forced" into the posture that Georgina is using.

The leader does not determine how much the follower tilts her pelvis, arches her back, nor which part of her body she presses with unless he pulls her rigidly into him... which Oscar does NOT, I promise... just the opposite... he scolded my partner for holding me too rigidly. Oscar's embrace feels soft but secure, never constrictive.

I suspect that Georgina (whom I have never met) uses this posture because it works for her or is natural for the way her body is built, NOT because Oscar requires it or forces it on her. If you watch the very beginning of the video, she has this sway in her lower back even when walking to him (you get only a brief glimpse) He made no corrections to me about being more like that when I took my lessons. We worked in a more milonguero embrace, rather than this much offset, but I doubt he would feel that different in another embrace.

If you watch the video and watch HIM, can you see anything he is doing that would prevent a follower from holding her pelvis and lower back differently? I can't... nor did I use that posture when dancing with him.

[Zoopsia59]

The first dance/embrace is more a performance style and the woman would have to practiced it a lot to be so adept.

Please see my previous post about this video.

And by the way... everyone has to practice a lot to be adept regardless of style. But I will say that Oscar is very easy to follow! In fact, just dancing with him and realizing I was better than I thought gave me a huge boost of confidence!

(not to take anything away from Georgina... She's light years ahead of me!)

[Zoopsia59]

she said 'give me more space to do that move'...which meant to open up to do a simple ocho cortado.. I told her 'no' that 'I won't break the connection'...ok, please let this political incorrectness go by and look instead at my problem..even my late practice partner was asking for 'more space' or to 'open up'...I told her that all the other guys will open up for her giros but I won't and in that way she will be able to do both....just pretend that somehow I'm a nice guy..the question is; am I correct on the technique??:confused: So, I'm trying to see if there is an embrace that will do it all...or almost all.

We've talked about this before... you do NOT need to open up to do ocho cortado, ochos, or molinete's. The follower DOES need to know how to do crossing ohos to make it work in a non-flexible embrace.

Whether your technique in doing them is correct is not something we can know without seeing you. But you are correct in that opening is not required. That doesn't mean howeer, that you are doing them properly for a non-flexible embrace, and its likely that your follower doesn't know how to do them in a cross-back style.

[Zoopsia59]

- in my experience doing a ocho cortado (and for that matter a giro) without opening up at all is very difficult for both the leader and follower, and it helped me personally a lot that i had explored them quite a bit while opening up - it is not easier to do them well that way, but the consequences of doing them badly are much more manageable and sometimes not even noticable.

Based on this experience my advice would be to open up - once you have completely debugged the opened up version you will be able to close it, and your followers won't even notice that you are not opening up anymore.
Gssh

This is rare, but I disagree with Gssh.

Its not that difficult if you and the follower know how to do it in non-flexible CE. Its pretty awkward if you don't.

I also disagree that you can close the embrace and still have followers do it. If they don't know how to make their ochos cross rather than pivot, they're always going to be asking for more space.

I'm talking about the sort of embrace where the woman's arm is draped around the leader's neck with his neck in the crook of her elbow. There is almost NO ability for the follower to pivot her body for an ocho in that embrace. Nor is it practical to slide in and out of the embrace. However, all those moves (ochos, ocho cortado, and molinete) are still possible. (and pretty easy once you know how)

[Ampster]

We've talked about this before... you do NOT need to open up to do ocho cortado, ochos, or molinete's. The follower DOES need to know how to do crossing ohos to make it work in a non-flexible embrace.


Yes, I'm with Zoops. This true, very, very true.

[LittleLight]

Zoopsia: So Oscar and Georgina will be teaching in my town in a few months' time. Looks like I'd better book the workshop now then. :)

Gsssh: Just out of interest. Upthread (sorry, I've been told by the moderators that as a newbie I can't quote) you mention "leading with the legs". I've never heard of this. Could you give an example or a name I can google of someone who this?

[Mario7]

And I'm mystified now why you keep asking these questions.
.. and you've shown an ability in the past to contradict
and ignore the consistent advice you'd requested and been given.
this is spoken like a harsh parent. .. at this stage of my development (and it's still fun) I hear the words and I hear them again and when I'm ready to really understand them, they have a BIG effect.:D

[dchester]

Mario, I'll give you one additional thing to consider. Your question asks about what is possible, but another variable has to do with preferences.

Like has already been stated, it is possible to do the ocho cortado without opening up the embrace (your preference). It is also possible to do it while opening up the embrace (her preference).

Both ways are possible, but you have different preferences. If you accept that, then it comes down to how do you (the leader) decide what you are going to do, when you are dancing with someone who has a different preference from you.

The options that I can think of (right now) are:


Accomodate her wishes.
Maybe compromise somewhat.
Lead so that she has no choice but to do exactly what you want.
Just end it and say Thank You.


The only problem that I run into, is that my first assumption (when something doesn't go as expected), is that my lead wasn't clear enough. It sometimes takes me a little time to figure out, that she simply doesn't want to do it exactly like I am leading it. Once I do figure that out, then I'll try either the first or second options that I listed.

After the tanda, you can decide if (and when) you want to dance with her again.

One thing I try to focus more on is what I can do well with any given follower, rather than just what we don't do so well. No offense intended, but your strategy would seem to greatly limit who you will be dancing with. While that might seem OK right now, your preferences might change a bit, down the road.

[bastet]

This is rare, but I disagree with Gssh.

Its not that difficult if you and the follower know how to do it in non-flexible CE. Its pretty awkward if you don't.

I also disagree that you can close the embrace and still have followers do it. If they don't know how to make their ochos cross rather than pivot, they're always going to be asking for more space.

I'm talking about the sort of embrace where the woman's arm is draped around the leader's neck with his neck in the crook of her elbow. There is almost NO ability for the follower to pivot her body for an ocho in that embrace. Nor is it practical to slide in and out of the embrace. However, all those moves (ochos, ocho cortado, and molinete) are still possible. (and pretty easy once you know how)

Totally agree here. It's quite natural to do what I call "square" (non pivoting) versus "rolling" (pivoted) movements in a very close embrace but you still have learn the techniques for it and unless it's done well, it is quite unnerving to be asked to slide in and out of this position for the follower.

[bastet]

We've talked about this before... you do NOT need to open up to do ocho cortado, ochos, or molinete's. The follower DOES need to know how to do crossing ohos to make it work in a non-flexible embrace.

Whether your technique in doing them is correct is not something we can know without seeing you. But you are correct in that opening is not required. That doesn't mean howeer, that you are doing them properly for a non-flexible embrace, and its likely that your follower doesn't know how to do them in a cross-back style.


all true...going to where a knowledgeable teacher can actually see you dancing is about the only way to sort it out.

[bordertangoman]

I figure that I cannot go much further without choosing/committing to an embrace... please, jot down the pluses and minuses that you see for each of these two which are the only ones that I am considering.... mil gracias! :p
..ps-oh and please venture a name of both if it's possible.

Go for quality;

Alejandro made two suggestions to me;

which I endeavour to stick to

1. Be present in the arm ( its too easy either to be an Arnie lock and load position so she's held in a, albeit masculine, vice or let your arm be light and vacuous)

2. Pause and reconnect a couple of times in the dance; this helps one and there are natural breathing spaces if you want them in the music.

Quit worrying about position; unless its interfering with your dance;
its hard to say why your ocho cortado's aren't working; the space needs to be created at foot level and the woman should be able to thread her crossing foot through;

maybe you can experiment with her...

[bastet]

Mario, I would say the video you posted shows a V-embrace. Here is what I call Apilado: it's Cacho Dante, from whom I learned it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgWMs0rAcJk

He does a couple of forward ochos at about 2:18. They are not ochos cortado, but it makes no difference. It is not necessary to open the embrace to do this movement.

I don't know why your partners would ask for more space. You do need to have enough room between yours and your partner's feet for her foot to pass through, but that is about where your feet are, not about the embrace.


This is also very true. you don't have to break an embrace to do a rolling pivot, but the lead absolute has to have his weight in the right place (feet out of the way) or she can't make the requested movements whether it's rolling or non rolling, she just trips over his feet at that point....best covered in a lesson is usually my suggestion.

[Zoopsia59]

Zoopsia: So Oscar and Georgina will be teaching in my town in a few months' time. Looks like I'd better book the workshop now then. :)


I have no idea what they teach in a workshop. My lessons were private with Oscar only (with my partner) and it was before he started dancing with Georgina I think. My partner knew him because Oscar used to dance with Veronica Salmeron in Baires and he had lessons with both of them.

Oscar is a very personable guy though, and if he is anything like his "private lesson self" in a workshop, I would expect the workshop to be pleasant and informative. If they came to my area, I would most likely take the workshop, or try to schedule another lesson with him. The style and embrace they use in that video is not particularly my goal, but he is versatile. The stuff he worked on with us concerning connecting through movement and breathing would be applicable to almost any embrace.

[Mario7]

The stuff he worked on with us concerning connecting through movement and breathing would be applicable to almost any embrace.

hmmm, what is this thing about breathing? It's mentioned a lot but no one gives any description that I have seen. When do you inhale, when do you exhale? Is it like working out; exhale on the exertion?

[Mario7]

..ok lots of good advice in this thread many thanks. The woman did do an ocho cortado without breaking the embrace, later in the next dance, and so maybe I was right.
I do get intimidated by this particular floor (a stage in front of an audience of diners) and other factors there...and so, maybe I neglected my lean..I will, in the future, pay more attention to going into my lean and maintaining it thruout...the advice about keeping feet out of the way and leg-room is what I'm going to focus on.

[AndaBien]

hmmm, what is this thing about breathing? It's mentioned a lot but no one gives any description that I have seen. When do you inhale, when do you exhale? Is it like working out; exhale on the exertion?

It's just plain ol' breathing. Sometimes people tend to hold their breath when they dance. Try taking a deep, slow inhale and exhale while you are walking with your partner. Sometimes your partner will also take a breath when she feels you do it.

[Zoopsia59]

It's just plain ol' breathing. Sometimes people tend to hold their breath when they dance. Try taking a deep, slow inhale and exhale while you are walking with your partner. Sometimes your partner will also take a breath when she feels you do it.

Oscar talked about the breathing of the couple being like the expansion and contraction of the bandoneon. He encouraged my partner to use breathing with the movement to help me feel when he was going to move, especially for the very first step. An inhalation sends a "get ready" message, and the exhalation occurs with the movement.

Naturally, you can't make this happen for every movement and every breath. Its for slower dancing and pauses as well as an exercise in moving together when practicing connection.

[bastet]

Oscar talked about the breathing of the couple being like the expansion and contraction of the bandoneon. He encouraged my partner to use breathing with the movement to help me feel when he was going to move, especially for the very first step. An inhalation sends a "get ready" message, and the exhalation occurs with the movement.

Naturally, you can't make this happen for every movement and every breath. Its for slower dancing and pauses as well as an exercise in moving together when practicing connection.


One of the teachers I work with now uses that a lot and it can be quite useful and he has a "magic" embrace too. :)

[Subliminal]

My teacher also uses breathing. She actually taught it to me first as a way of indicating changes in rhythm, such as a syncopated step. :)

[JohnEm]

Oscar talked about the breathing of the couple being like the expansion and contraction of the bandoneon. He encouraged my partner to use breathing with the movement to help me feel when he was going to move, especially for the very first step. An inhalation sends a "get ready" message, and the exhalation occurs with the movement.

Naturally, you can't make this happen for every movement and every breath. Its for slower dancing and pauses as well as an exercise in moving together when practicing connection.

Oh don't teachers have some weird ideas.

I don't breathe like a bandoneon and certainly don't want to sound like one.
And why make it so complicated, if I want your chest to move I move
my chest - simple. Shouldn't the teacher be teaching followers to be
always ready and ready for the unexpected too? So why another signal?
And to make it work you probably have synchronise breathing to the music.
Not saying it can't be done - but teaching it?

Occasionally as an emphasis I see the point but that is very individual.
And finally, I see the possibility of inducing breathing together is a consequence
of the physical chest connection not a cause of the connection, though under
some circumstances it could reinforce it.

It's much more important to ensure dancers breathe naturally (it's somehow
better than not breathing at all) so they can relax into the dance rather
than teach something so contrived. There's more than enough to cope with.

[bordertangoman]

Oh don't teachers have some weird ideas.

I don't breathe like a bandoneon and certainly don't want to sound like one.
And why make it so complicated, if I want your chest to move I move
my chest - simple. Shouldn't the teacher be teaching followers to be
always ready and ready for the unexpected too? So why another signal?
And to make it work you probably have synchronise breathing to the music.
Not saying it can't be done - but teaching it?

Occasionally as an emphasis I see the point but that is very individual.
And finally, I see the possibility of inducing breathing together is a consequence
of the physical chest connection not a cause of the connection, though under
some circumstances it could reinforce it.

It's much more important to ensure dancers breathe naturally (it's somehow
better than not breathing at all) so they can relax into the dance rather
than teach something so contrived. There's more than enough to cope with.


oh course along with breathing you have to synchronise heartbeats

[Dave Bailey]

Oh don't teachers have some weird ideas.
Actually, I've been taught the "inhale to signal" thing. It sort of works, at least as a starting point. It's all part of preparing yourself and your partner to move.

[tangobro]

Oh don't teachers have some weird ideas.

I don't breathe like a bandoneon and certainly don't want to sound like one.


This was mentioned in another thread:
http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?p=772217#post772217


I've had several teachers use that example - for breathing, for the embrace, for varying the dynamic of the dance. I don't think it was literal. I kind of thought it was a common metaphor amongst tangueros 'cause of the allusion to the song "Igual que un Bandoneon" (the same as a bandoneon).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxN4CWMHEPU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxN4CWMHEPU)

So - yes I've been taught (as part of the lead) to use the taking of a breath at the beginning of the movement to help indicate the change of dynamic, and that taking a breath as you begin to dance each musical phrase helps the dance. <Not that you hold your breath in between phrases>.

[Peaches]

The issue of breathing as it relates to dancing (and music) is one that fascinates me.

With the caveat that I can't remember my teacher(s) ever discussing it, and that I've never had a lesson with any of the people discussed in the thread, I'd like to offer my take on the idea of using breathing to signal.

I would highly doubt that any of the teachers meant (in saying to use the breath to help signal a lead of some sort) anything along the lines of "When I breathe *like this* it means *do that*." That doesn't make a damn lick of sense, IMO, and is completely antithetical to the notion of leading and following in AT...and somehow I would guess that the teachers being talked about have a bit of a clue in this regard.

However, if you take it out of the realm of the strictly literal interpretation, I believe it begins to make more sense. The act of inhaling, and how you do it, can change how you hold yourself and how you will move when you exhale...which can translate to your partner. A long, slow drawing-in of breath gives a feeling like tension building. It's a feeling of drawing up, and drawing in. Holding that breath for a second holds that tension; it creates a feeling of expectancy, of anticipation. Exhaling brings a release and relaxation. These are things that your partner can pick up on, and can help with the expression of music. Light, quick breaths bring more of a feeling of, well, lightness and quickness...which can be good for an entirely different sort of feeling.

If your breathing compliments your leading, instead of counteracting it, it can become very powerful. And if your partner is in tune with your feeling and your leading, it can be possible that you begin breathing at the same time. Not always, but at key moments. That, IMO, is a very deep connection. But if you're doing slow movement and panting...it's kind of distracting. It's not signaling anything, per se, but it's jarring.

Perhaps this is not what various teachers meant. I hardly mean to be putting words or concepts in their mouths. But it's the way that using breathing to complement leading and movement makes sense to me. YMMV.

[Subliminal]

That's a good interpretation! Yes, it's not something huge and obvious. It can be very subtle. So subtle a follower might feel the difference in the lead, but not consciously know it's coming from the breathing.

[Zoopsia59]

Oh don't teachers have some weird ideas.

I don't breathe like a bandoneon and certainly don't want to sound like one.
And why make it so complicated, if I want your chest to move I move
my chest - simple. Shouldn't the teacher be teaching followers to be
always ready and ready for the unexpected too? So why another signal?
And to make it work you probably have synchronise breathing to the music.
Not saying it can't be done - but teaching it?

Occasionally as an emphasis I see the point but that is very individual.
And finally, I see the possibility of inducing breathing together is a consequence
of the physical chest connection not a cause of the connection, though under
some circumstances it could reinforce it.

It's much more important to ensure dancers breathe naturally (it's somehow
better than not breathing at all) so they can relax into the dance rather
than teach something so contrived. There's more than enough to cope with.

You forget that these were PRIVATE lessons. It was an analogy to help my partner with his rather abrupt movement. Its possible that Oscar has never mentioned this to any other dancers but us. (unlikely, but possible) I hardly claimed it was his fallback teaching method that he expects of everyone who crosses his path and he spends 1/2 of a workshop talking esoterically.

As a tool and metaphor to help my partner smooth out his lead, it was genius. Expansion and contraction of movement (not the embrace, itself) are useful elements for a smooth and musical dance. It's fairly natural to coordinate the expansion and contraction of breathing with those movements, but if someone doesn't make use of the principle in their movement or their breathing, the whole dance feels stiff and jerky.

Disparage away if you like, but I think you missed the point.

[DerekWeb]

If you practice Tai Chi Chuan for many years, you will find your breathing and movements harmonize. I can readily believe the same can happen after many years of AT.

[Mario7]

It's just plain ol' breathing. Sometimes people tend to hold their breath when they dance. Try taking a deep, slow inhale and exhale while you are walking with your partner. Sometimes your partner will also take a breath when she feels you do it.
Yes, indeed before I read the rest...I noticed (months ago) that I could hold my breath for almost half the dance! hee hee...then later I noticed that the woman's breathing was a sign that she liked the dance...{A slow inhale exhale with a lost look on the face.}:kissme:

[Mario7]

An inhalation sends a "get ready" message, and the exhalation occurs with the movement..
Right, like lifting weights.

[JohnEm]

You forget that these were PRIVATE lessons. It was an analogy to help my partner with his rather abrupt movement. Its possible that Oscar has never mentioned this to any other dancers but us. (unlikely, but possible) I hardly claimed it was his fallback teaching method that he expects of everyone who crosses his path and he spends 1/2 of a workshop talking esoterically.

As a tool and metaphor to help my partner smooth out his lead, it was genius. Expansion and contraction of movement (not the embrace, itself) are useful elements for a smooth and musical dance. It's fairly natural to coordinate the expansion and contraction of breathing with those movements, but if someone doesn't make use of the principle in their movement or their breathing, the whole dance feels stiff and jerky.

I love it when people move the goalposts!

Making someone conscious of their intrusive breathing is a very
different situation from your fist post. Hopefully that helped to make
your partner more aware of the need to breathe in synchronicity
with the dance. His problem was the opposite of the one which gets
teachers saying "and breathe" when someone isn't.

Disparage away if you like, but I think you missed the point.

Well no, actually. Your original point was the one I rather disagreed with. Like this one -
Actually, I've been taught the "inhale to signal" thing. It sort of works, at least as a starting point. It's all part of preparing yourself and your partner to move.
- though the preparation part can be useful.

As in many things, it's a question of degree. Someone gets or is given
an idea and then it gets extended until it is given an importance way
beyond reason.

Peaches has given a very good explanation - as I said it's personal,
individual and not contrived. In other words you don't use your breathing
to give a signal but breathing can influence your signals and the
atmosphere of your dance. It can be intrusive and disruptive,
as in the case of Zoopsia's partner, or complementary and engaging
as per Peaches.

[Zoopsia59]

I love it when people move the goalposts!

Making someone conscious of their intrusive breathing is a very
different situation from your fist post.


In the same post that I first mentioned the breathing, I also mentioned that these were private lessons... any teacher worth their salt tailors the lesson to the needs of the individual. You made assumptions about the placement of the goalposts being an esoteric teaching method applicable to anyone and everyone. I never said that at all. I said that what he was talking about to us could be applicable to more than one EMBRACE.

My partner's breathing is not the reason for his abrupt movement, but a conscious approach to breathing would be one possible way to address the issue.

[JohnEm]

In the same post that I first mentioned the breathing, I also mentioned that these were private lessons... any teacher worth their salt tailors the lesson to the needs of the individual. You made assumptions about the placement of the goalposts being an esoteric teaching method applicable to anyone and everyone. I never said that at all. I said that what he was talking about to us could be applicable to more than one EMBRACE.

My partner's breathing is not the reason for his abrupt movement, but a conscious approach to breathing would be one possible way to address the issue.

Turns out that the first post I responded to was actually your second
and you made no reference there to private lessons. So while accepting
and agreeing that point, I don't change a word of my comments
about your actual second post.

Shall we leave it there Zoopsia?

[Zoopsia59]

Shall we leave it there Zoopsia?

So you can have the last word? ;)

[JohnEm]

So you can have the last word? ;)

Well that will be a miracle!!!!:lol: