Dancing with beginners in close embrace [Archive]

Mario7

06-07-2010, 07:34 AM

Madahlia

06-07-2010, 08:19 AM

.......and so hardly controversial.

No. Of course not. Quite.

I would have found close embrace to be deeply, profoundly alarming if it had been my first experience of AT. Even worse if it was my first experience of partner dance. Even now, with unfamiliar partners it is a struggle to have to be so physically close to them, especially when there is often an element of physical effort as well.

By all means introduce it, but with great sensitivity and care, and remember that it has its own set of technical difficulties at a time when the learning is already difficult enough. There is no reason to expect a raw beginner to love CE as much as you do or have the same attitude towards it. So take care what you are inflicting on them.

dchester

06-07-2010, 08:21 AM

I would think that with a first time beginner, a practica setting would be much better than at a milonga. You'd mostly likely need to explain a few things to a new beginner, IMO.

bordertangoman

06-07-2010, 08:35 AM

What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ... Hopefully, this thread will help me begin to dance with very inexperienced dancers who have a desire for the dance.:applause:

although I am not sure exaclty what you are asking;

there are small relaxed milongas where I would dance with a near or total novice but others which if say too crowded, or too much sticklers for etiquette. ( ie snobs) but i know teachers who would discourage beginners from attending milongas until they had three months experience.

I wouldnt dance close embrace with a novice unless they had very good posture/balance and groundedness, and again taking on board whether they feel comfortable in close embrace.

if I caught you teaching on the dance floor in one of my milongas I would ask you to leave, close embrace or not. (Buenos Aires Codigo #12; No teaching at milongas)

but as DB has pointed out there are many practi-longas around...:(

Of course if you are asking this question you probably ought not to be dancing with beginners as you might put them off. I get alot of that people who say " i tried dancing tango but i had this awful experience with a man/woman who...blah blah blah..."

AndaBien

06-07-2010, 08:43 AM

Please excuse my specifying C.E. but my opinion is that beginners should begin with C.E. anyway. This opinion has even been expressed by some Nuevo teachers and so hardly controversial. I also am narrowing this down to the more experienced leader's dance with the beginning follower.
What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ... Hopefully, this thread will help me begin to dance with very inexperienced dancers who have a desire for the dance.:applause:

I no not agree that beginners should start with CE. I prefer to start them with OE, so they begin to understand basic concepts of tango while controlling and learning about their own balance/axis. Only after that do I begin teaching them apilado. This applies to classes and private lessons.

At milongas I can dance with total beginners in a CE (not apilado) and give them a decent dance using only forward/back steps, side steps and pauses. A LOT of dancing can be done with only those steps, including plenty of nuance. But, I think it takes an experienced leader to understand that, and be able to deliver.

Actually, I think a complete beginner is often easier to dance with than one who has finished an 8-week series. Total beginners have no mental concepts interferring with their ability to physically follow. After a beginner's series followers frequently are all "mental" about their dancing, and it takes them months before they get back to feeling the dance, rather than thinking it.

opendoor

06-07-2010, 10:28 AM

... my opinion is that beginners should begin with C.E. anyway. This opinion has even been expressed by some Nuevo teachers...

I do agree, so what´s the point? :cheers:

(think we do not agree about the ending, which is the open embrace, because it is by far the more demanding and intricate variant...)

Mario7

06-07-2010, 10:33 AM

....it seems that further explaination is needed...:rolleyes: (thanks to the Tango devide)
Well, I don't dance open hold. I only dance close embrace. Recently, I've found occassion (they asked) to dance with beginners at a social dance. I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

opendoor

06-07-2010, 10:51 AM

To be a missionary on the dance floor would leave a bad taste.... and would do a disservice to your ideas.

But to be authentically in your way of dancing and interpreting music is the normal way.

AndaBien

06-07-2010, 10:59 AM

... Recently, I've found occassion (they asked) to dance with beginners at a social dance. I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

It takes two to tango, but it fairly well takes a whole community, also. I don't know if you have a moral obligation, but I do think dancers should make an effort to support the community in which they dance.

I also find some personal satisfaction in helping devoted students to learn.

bordertangoman

06-07-2010, 11:01 AM

..... I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

why do you feel morally bound to do something you dont enjoy and/or cant do?

surely you are advocating traditional Argentine tango values and by this ethos no-one should attend a milonga unless they have a good eighteen months practice?

i keep shifting beginners in and out of close embrace in my classes; keeping their axis and balance has nothing to do with the embrace but their strentgth of core and their understanding of what is required to follow;(equally true of leaders)

Mladenac

06-07-2010, 11:14 AM

If a beginner is up to 1yr experience that I would dance CE.
B/C in school I attend CE is done after 3-5 months.

A lot of follower find CE at the beginning very demanding.
So putting to soon in CE is pointless.
Leaders and followers should get proper basics in OE to dance properly CE.

I don't need to offend you Mario7, but it seems that you are close minded.
Dance OE and open your mind.

I used to help beginners but I know that I am not qualified for that so I stopped and it's quite demanding for me so I'd rather dance.
Maybe I say sth about what is really noticeable and point that they look for the instructor.

JohnEm

06-07-2010, 11:55 AM

....it seems that further explanation is needed...:rolleyes: (thanks to the Tango divide)
It seems to me that tango life is (or at least was in the Golden Age)
simpler in BsAs. If you wanted to learn/dance social tango it was in the embrace.
Variations there may have been but social tango meant dancing in a hug.
If you didn't like inviting your partner to share your space and he/she
didn't like sharing similarly then you didn't learn tango. It was your choice.

In the US and Europe tango seems to be made so much more complicated with
its variations of hold and its introduction of fantasia/nuevo to the social scene,
some of which was clearly the result of argentinian show dancers responding
to the desire of people to learn what they were doing.

Well, I don't dance open hold. I only dance close embrace. Recently, I've found occasion (they asked) to dance with beginners at a social dance. I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about. Of course, I could always stay dancing only with those that I know can do it.

You surely aren't under any moral obligation to dance with beginners who
aren't learning to dance within the embrace. If you cannot accommodate
the not untypical reaction of Madahlia and dance open then beginners
from those classes are not for you. Why fret about it?

You can already see from the posts what a wide variety of opinions there are.
You've decided what you want your dance to be, be true to it and make
that the best you can. Trying to cope with the results of other teaching methods
and solutions is likely to just compromise your own dance.

So now you have yet another different opinion.

dchester

06-07-2010, 12:39 PM

A lot of follower find CE at the beginning very demanding.
So putting to soon in CE is pointless.
Leaders and followers should get proper basics in OE to dance properly CE. Does this mean that they find OE to be easier (or require less skill)?

I don't need to offend you Mario7, but it seems that you are close minded.
Dance OE and open your mind. I find this interesting. I actually agree with the first sentence, but not the second. If someone doesn't like OE, why would doing it make them more open minded? I generally don't dance with people who do OE, (unless they are a beginner, or something), because I don't enjoy it much. However, I couldn't care less if others dance in OE.

opendoor

06-07-2010, 12:47 PM

dchester

06-07-2010, 01:10 PM

I agree with you, we should not make proselytes! But, just asked, dont you find that some pieces require OE? I hate to commit myself to one style, only. I want to decide spntaneouly how to interpret the music.
I haven't (yet) found that I need to go to a true open embrace to express myself, but I can accept/understand that others might. For me, changing from more of an apilado style embrace to a Villa Urquiza style embrace is what I strive for (depending on the music and the partner).

I will admit that some followers will open up the embrace (some) when doing figures, and I certainly will accommodate their wishes, when that happens.

Mladenac

06-07-2010, 01:46 PM

Does this mean that they find OE to be easier (or require less skill)?

1. THE SKILL
It requires less skill definitely to dance basic step, ochos, parada, cross, giros.
OE
Lead is acquired by rotating torso. Follower have visual contact with chest so they can recognize what is led.
Also flaws in walking are allowed, and follower does almost normal back step. Slightly using the ribcage just to prepare a leg.
Followers receives linear lead by her left arm.
Maintaining balance is simpler, not talking about nuevo staff.
CE
Lead is completely led by torso. And full body contact is required.
Arms at beginning are only for embrace, later are used when initiating giro, or when playing with free leg.
Followers when walking backward should extend their legs up to ribcage (just bellow breasts) and when walking backwards they should use their heels to push back. Heels in CE are mandatory or to walk like you have heels.
If leader and follower does not have proper walk embrace falls apart and you have rebounds. In OE is not so important.
In CE precision of movement is accentuated.

And when it's hot it is easier to dance OE.
Some girls said that CE demands more concentration than OE.

2. THE INTIMACY
It can be quite intimidating to have CE with person you just meet if you are a beginner.
Personal space may vary in certain cultures.

I find this interesting. I actually agree with the first sentence, but not the second. If someone doesn't like OE, why would doing it make them more open minded? I generally don't dance with people who do OE, (unless they are a beginner, or something), because I don't enjoy it much. However, I couldn't care less if others dance in OE.The more he can adjust to the follower the better dancer he would be.
"If you have a hammer, every solution seems like a nail"

Mladenac

06-07-2010, 02:13 PM

Mario7

06-07-2010, 02:38 PM

BTW dancing OE and CE, with transition gives you more possibilities than just CE.

OK, I guess I need to clarify some more things..I'm a 'natural' dancer..I have always found it easy to dance...(until AT)..anyway, at the time I discovered AT, it was the music that rivetted me and the close embrace really amazed me..I felt that I had walked into the twilight zone..I was stunned, in a Fellini movie!...so, I decided to pursue this dance. Before this discovery, I was not interested in dancing at all...but found only Salsa interesting to watch.
Now, taking the above into consideration, can you see how maybe I'm just plain not interested in dancing without a close embrace? Also, open hold with a beginner, without figures and fancy steps looks dumb and feels dumb...imagine me mostly walking in open hold..do we look at our feet? ...past each other? What am I missing?...more possibilities to what? ...feel frustrated? It's my opinion that open hold dancing is to show off steps and figures, while I'm more into purring and feeling -it's a different ball game. I know that some will take issue with everything I write.
It's this kind of completely missing each other that tells me that there simply should be another forum that incorporates my dance...if 'close embrace' won't do it, maybe a 'Milonguero' forum since all the other A.T. titles seem to be usurped by 'modern' tango...even the term 'Milonguero' is now being co-opted ......
I know that no one wants to hear this arguement again and neither do I...If I don't find someway to segregate the threads that I start so that it stays relevant to my dance, I may have to quit threading...of course, lot's would like to see this occur, too.

newbie

06-07-2010, 03:30 PM

help me begin to dance with very inexperienced dancers who have a desire for the dance.

Use chloroform maybe. Or Rohypnol or something. Because beginners will struggle and keep you at range.

ant

06-07-2010, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mario7
Now, taking the above into consideration, can you see how maybe I'm just plain not interested in dancing without a close embrace? Also, open hold with a beginner, without figures and fancy steps looks dumb and feels dumb...imagine me mostly walking in open hold..do we look at our feet? ...past each other? What am I missing?...

As I understand your original question was how best to dance with complete beginners. This is a completely different issue to how you would like to dance. When I dance with a complete beginner I assume there are a number of problems that need to be overcome in order to give them and me a pleasant dance. I have found almost all beginners will not be able to walk properly, they will not be able to pivot and they will have no idea about connecting with me. If you go into a close embrace before you address these issues, firstly you may turn the follower off AT completely and secondly you may give yourself a back injury.

I think that the advise Andabien gave regarding how to dance with a complete beginner is exactly what I would do but in OE, until you have established a connection.

Originally Posted by Andabien
using only forward/back steps, side steps and pauses. A LOT of dancing can be done with only those steps,

And make sure that the follower is properly on her axis after each step before you lead the next step.

As regards where you look. Maintain your full attention within the partnership. Don't allow it to wander at all. Concentrate all your intention at the centre of the followers chest.

I also feel you may be doing all the ladies a complete disservise. I assume once again that these dances will be in a practica associated with lessons?

In my opinion you should think of the ladies only. Either attend or find out what was taught in the lessons and just practise that content with them.

I am sure you they would much happier doing this.

tanjive

06-07-2010, 05:59 PM

OK, I guess I need to clarify some more things..I'm a 'natural' dancer..I have always found it easy to dance...(until AT)..anyway, at the time I discovered AT, it was the music that rivetted me and the close embrace really amazed me..I felt that I had walked into the twilight zone..I was stunned, in a Fellini movie!...so, I decided to pursue this dance. Before this discovery, I was not interested in dancing at all...but found only Salsa interesting to watch.
Now, taking the above into consideration, can you see how maybe I'm just plain not interested in dancing without a close embrace? Also, open hold with a beginner, without figures and fancy steps looks dumb and feels dumb...imagine me mostly walking in open hold..do we look at our feet? ...past each other? What am I missing?...more possibilities to what? ...feel frustrated? It's my opinion that open hold dancing is to show off steps and figures, while I'm more into purring and feeling -it's a different ball game. I know that some will take issue with everything I write.
It's this kind of completely missing each other that tells me that there simply should be another forum that incorporates my dance...if 'close embrace' won't do it, maybe a 'Milonguero' forum since all the other A.T. titles seem to be usurped by 'modern' tango...even the term 'Milonguero' is now being co-opted ......
I know that no one wants to hear this arguement again and neither do I...If I don't find someway to segregate the threads that I start so that it stays relevant to my dance, I may have to quit threading...of course, lot's would like to see this occur, too.

Mario this is just being boring and repetitive. Stop feeling sorry that not everyone agrees exactly with you. That is the way of the world. If you want something to be discussed you have to expect there to be opinions that are not aligned to yours. Personally my favourite embrace is close. I do want the follower to ideally turn within it. They may not fit your exact standards of what CE should be.

As regards the beginner question. CE for a complete beginner is intimidating. If you are dancing for them, then it is not about what is comfortable for you. OE is easier to both lead them, and be comfortable at for follow for this level as it allows for mistakes in balance, posture delayed reactions etc. If you are feeling obliged to dance with beginners to grow your community (or just not seem to be elitist) do it to for their comfort not yours. If you can't admit it is not right for you. It is a wise person that adjusts to what is suitable then sticks to just a narrow view.

AndaBien

06-07-2010, 06:20 PM

bastet

06-07-2010, 06:31 PM

I think we are discussing CE in this thread as though we agree on what it is, but I'm pretty sure we don't.

There is CE with independent axis, which many beginners would be able to do, if they are comfortable with the physical closeness of it. There is also CE with shared balance (apilado) that I would not attempt with total beginners.

I think I mostly agree with Anda on this (both statements).

When I first started dancing, I danced close embrace with people, but the venues were very tight and it was necessary. I can't say how it felt to them, for I am quite sure I sucked, but it never put me off and some of them even still danced with me after (and still do) so I guess it can be done, at least to a limited extent.

I do agree with Anda that I wouldn't attempt apilado with a beginner. Heck, I wouldn't attempt it with anyone unless I could tell they knew how from watching them or I knew they knew how from experience with them.

Mario7

06-07-2010, 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andabien
1..using only forward/back steps, side steps and pauses. A LOT of dancing can be done with only those steps.
2...And make sure that the follower is properly on her axis after each step before you lead the next step. - Ant

OK, Many thanks! It looks like the above 2 points are THE cogent ones in reply to my question.:kissme:

Zoopsia59

06-07-2010, 08:08 PM

I also am narrowing this down to the more experienced leader's dance with the beginning follower.
What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ... Hopefully, this thread will help me begin to dance with very inexperienced dancers who have a desire for the dance.:applause:

Well, I don't dance open hold. I only dance close embrace. Recently, I've found occassion (they asked) to dance with beginners at a social dance. I guess I felt morally bound to eventually figure this out and do it... that is what my question is about.

I've read most of the first page of this thread, and I think its a darn shame that no one wants to actually answer your question. So far, its seems that the replies are all flaming you for knowing what you want to dance and wishing to use that style when dancing with beginners who might wish to dance with you.

I've no idea why this needed to become a CE vs OE thread. You asked a question and therefore you get to set the parameters of the question. Telling you that you should simply dance a different style, and insisting it has more possibilities/ potential/ nuance/ difficulties/whatever seems to me to be no different from what you got scolded for awhile back when you expressed a desire that others dance YOUR style.. :rolleyes: It hardly seems fair. If you aren't interested in OE, don't dance it and ignore people who pressure you to do it just as those who do it were instructed to ignore your insistence that CE is better.

I applaud you for being willing to dance with beginners and for caring enough about doing it well to seek answers on the best way to go about it. If they are asking you, then they clearly are already aware you are a CE dancer and I see no reason for you to worry that they will be uncomfortable with the intimacy of a CE embrace. If they didn't want to try it, they wouldn't be asking you.

I wish I could give you some specific advice, but since I am an experienced follower and a much less experienced leader, I have no perspective on what a leader should do in the reverse situation. I can tell you that I really hated it as a beginner when a leader would do something that was too advanced for me and then do it over and over until I got it. I loved it when a leader would dance in a way that made me feel beautiful and successful.

Also, anything you can do to help your partner be relaxed, or avoid doing so she won't be tense, will help.

Sorry... pretty general I know, but attitude goes a REALLY long way with me and always has.

Zoopsia59

06-07-2010, 08:21 PM

So putting to soon in CE is pointless.
Leaders and followers should get proper basics in OE to dance properly CE.

I don't need to offend you Mario7, but it seems that you are close minded.
Dance OE and open your mind.

I learned CE first and I did just fine and was able to learn it "properly". To say it is pointless seems to me to be a rather rigid (close minded) position. Its hard to objectively evaluate, but I'd say I had less trouble going from CE to OE than other followers I know who have had to do the reverse.

I'll also say that I was learning CE almost in a private lesson setting (semi-private group class of less than 6 people) and I spent more time dancing with my instructor (from whom I also took privately) than anyone else. So that may have made a difference in how easily I picked up CE.

I can't say that it was easier or harder than learning in the opposite sequence would have been because I can't go back and learn it all over again in the reverse. So there's no way to know. However, I doubt it would have been easier to do the opposite and in some ways would have made for some bad habits to unlearn and some good habits I might have been able to cheat.

Oops... my bad... I didn't want to contribute to the OE vs CE debate. I just couldn't let this comment about it being pointless go by.

Zoopsia59

06-07-2010, 08:33 PM

Heels in CE are mandatory or to walk like you have heels.

Some girls said that CE demands more concentration than OE.

If you mean high heeled shoes, then no, they aren't mandatory. Nor is walking like you have high heels on. I was taught NOT to dance like I'm wearing heels when I'm not, but to work through the foot and get my foot heel down. In fact, I've had several very skilled highly respected female teachers make me take OFF my shoes and practice backwards walking in my stockings in order to use the reach and the feet properly. If my leader is quite tall, its easier to dance in heels just because of the height difference, but few are that much taller than I and some leaders here are shorter than I. If I'm doing more lean in apilado, then the heels are better because my achilles are not very flexible.

But to say they are mandatory... no.. simply not true.

I also think OE takes more concentration because those leaders are more likely to do complicated moves. However, no matter what style is danced, you can't follow with your brain, so "concentration" is not a word I would use. It implies thinking. "Focus" is a better word, IMO. But even better is "presence". The follower must be "present" with the leader to follow him without resorting to any kind of thinking or analyzing. I find myself resorting to concentration or conscious thinking when dancing OE FAR more than CE, and it would be better if I didn't.

Zoopsia59

06-07-2010, 08:42 PM

As regards where you look. Maintain your full attention within the partnership. Don't allow it to wander at all. Concentrate all your intention at the centre of the followers chest.

I think this may be misleading... the leader should concentrate the intention of his leading to in the center of the follower's chest, but that is NOT where he should be LOOKING. He should be looking where he is going... (ie: down LOD) just as he does in CE.

dchester

06-07-2010, 08:47 PM

I've read most of the first page of this thread, and I think its a darn shame that no one wants to actually answer your question. So far, its seems that the replies are all flaming you for knowing what you want to dance and wishing to use that style when dancing with beginners who might wish to dance with you.

I've no idea why this needed to become a CE vs OE thread. You asked a question and therefore you get to set the parameters of the question. Telling you that you should simply dance a different style, and insisting it has more possibilities/ potential/ nuance/ difficulties/whatever seems to me to be no different from what you got scolded for awhile back when you expressed a desire that others dance YOUR style.. :rolleyes: It hardly seems fair. If you aren't interested in OE, don't dance it and ignore people who pressure you to do it just as those who do it were instructed to ignore your insistence that CE is better.

I applaud you for being willing to dance with beginners and for caring enough about doing it well to seek answers on the best way to go about it. If they are asking you, then they clearly are already aware you are a CE dancer and I see no reason for you to worry that they will be uncomfortable with the intimacy of a CE embrace. If they didn't want to try it, they wouldn't be asking you.

I wish I could give you some specific advice, but since I am an experienced follower and a much less experienced leader, I have no perspective on what a leader should do in the reverse situation. I can tell you that I really hated it as a beginner when a leader would do something that was too advanced for me and then do it over and over until I got it. I loved it when a leader would dance in a way that made me feel beautiful and successful.

Also, anything you can do to help your partner be relaxed, or avoid doing so she won't be tense, will help.

Sorry... pretty general I know, but attitude goes a REALLY long way with me and always has.
Since Zoopsia chimed in, I guess I will as well, especially since I agree with her.

1) Why anyone would think Mario is asking about anything other than close embrace is not clear to me, as the first sentence in the OP said C.E.

2) Of course people can successfully start off in close embrace first, as both my wife and I started with close embrace (it was the teacher who made that choice). Some teachers like to start people in OE first, and others like to start people in CE first, and as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing more than a personal preference, as I've seen competent teachers that had either preference.

3) I think his question/post is a fair and reasonable one.

Part of why I didn't post much advice, was because I just don't see anyway around explaining a few things though, which would be an issue at some milongas. Leaving that issueide, my main thoughts I already posted in another thread, but I'll repeat it here.When dancing with beginners, your leads have to be very clear, and typically, more force and/or support is needed. You have to ensure that you stay very stable. For me, it seems to work much better in close embrace, as long as the follower is comfortable with that. Simple walking (slow beats only) is a good start, although rock steps (and rock step turns) seem to be fine with beginners, even with quick steps.

With ochos, you must be clear to distinguish the pivot portion of the lead from the step portion of the lead. If she is a new beginner, then I won't lead the cross, and I'll always take the extra step when going into or coming out of cross system (like for ochos).

What you have to do, to lead beginners well, will drive some intermediate dancers nuts, so you have to be able to adapt to different dancers styles. This is why I recommend dancing with as many different people as possible.

jantango

06-07-2010, 11:09 PM

When I began serious study of tango in 1991, no one danced with me in chest-to-chest contact, so I did not know that was the way Argentines were dancing tango in Buenos Aires. I trusted what my teachers taught--afterall they were Argentines.

Then I traveled to Buenos Aires in 1996 to see for myself. I went for the purpose of dancing with Argentines. When the men wanted to hold me close, I went along with it. It felt nice. They were strangers, but we were dancing on a crowded floor. That was the way it was done. I didnt think much about it.

My early training in all those figures and embellishments was interesting. Being a dancer helped me learn quickly. But I put aside all interest in doing things with my legs and feet to surrender to the embrace. I didnt want to think about tango, I wanted to feel it.

Younger dancers want to try out all those fancy things to have fun. When you get older, you want more than fun--you want pleasure that lasts. Tango with an embrace is satisfying. And that is why I hold a partner close and surrender to him and the music. He takes care of the rest.

A few years ago a woman from the USA wrote that she wanted a lesson with a milonguero during her short visit. I arranged it. Her exposure to tango was a few classes. She went into the embrace of the milonguero and did not question it. In one hour she was dancing and following everything he did. She had no problem whatsoever.

The embrace makes the dance so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.

Mladenac

06-08-2010, 01:40 AM

@Jantango
Dancing with a experienced leader is not like with a beginner, and we both know that.
When I see beginner dancing OE they are like fish out of the water.
And when introduced to CE after a time, they find it quite demanding.
He danced with so many woman so that adjusting to her is not a problem.

@Zoopsia
When the CE was introduced the lady instructor said to ladies that they should have some form of heels.
She has been dancing for AT 7 yrs, dance teacher in Latin/standard, and had numerous group and private lesson with various AT teachers.

IME Going private with a instructor only is disastrous, unless he know how to lead and follow very well, which is very rare.

Every leader with complete stranger should gradually introduce new elements during the dance so he can determine a level of a follower.
Why OE implies more complicated moves?
With the embrace and the I can see the experience of the follower so why I would torture her with advanced movements.
I can do it in CE as well as in OE.

Everything I wrote is my subjective opinion based on my experience.
I do not have knowledge to be absolutely right.

ant

06-08-2010, 01:51 AM

I learned CE first

Would it be fair to say that you started in CE in your very first lesson?

Even the most ardent CE teachers I know start their pupils off in OE in order to introduce the concepts of walking, lead and follow and connection.

JohnEm

06-08-2010, 02:10 AM

The embrace makes the dance so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.
If only this were universally true. My experience is that there are many ladies
like Madahlia who find/found relaxing into the embrace really difficult.
One dancer has commented on Sallycat's "The Gift" post on her blog
recently about her own problems.
http://sallycatway.com/?p=2537

If only teachers would explain that the social dance is in the embrace and start
from that basis but, excluding BsAs, very few do. I have however seen a whole room,
packed with novice dancers encouraged just to hold each other and walk in the embrace.
I had a totally novice partner with me and did the same successfully.

And that is what I'd advise Mario to do and only build slowly on simple walking,
according to what response he feels. But keep all that to a practice session, not at a milonga.

Gssh

06-08-2010, 04:12 AM

Would it be fair to say that you started in CE in your very first lesson?

Even the most ardent CE teachers I know start their pupils off in OE in order to introduce the concepts of walking, lead and follow and connection.

I know several teachers who start people off in CE - and it works quite well - especially the concepts of lead, follow and connection are much easier to understand if they are not mediated by the arms. Considering how difficult it is to get the right dynamic tension in the arms that does not surprise me. n my experience if there is a problem it is with the beginning _leaders_; Followers seem to be quite comfortable with the "hug", leaders seem to feel that they would have much more control and freedom of movement if they could move her around with their arms, and they are more uncomfortable/awkward in being in close contact with somebody. In my experience total beginners are quite comfortable in close embrace if they see that it is the norm in the community. Gssh

Dave Bailey

06-08-2010, 05:07 AM

What I am trying to elicit here is a personal-experience type of posting on the specific skills and tacts that will work well with a beginning dance partner in the social dance (milonga)..in other words; without stopping to 'teach'..
Keep it simple, keep it slow. Ummm, that's pretty much it.

As for the embrace, close embrace will almost certainly not work with a total beginner who doesn't know about posture. But if she does know it, and uses it, then close is actually easier to lead her with.

I would also appreciate any distinctions made between the 'first time' beginner and the beginner who has completed their first series of classes ..
Frankly, I don't think total beginners should try milongas without any classes. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

bordertangoman

06-08-2010, 05:19 AM

Keep it simple, keep it slow. Ummm, that's pretty much it.

As for the embrace, close embrace will almost certainly not work with a total beginner who doesn't know about posture. But if she does know it, and uses it, then close is actually easier to lead her with.

Frankly, I don't think total beginners should try milongas without any classes. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

I'm sure the followers love it when you're harsh :)

I agree in principle but there's always someone who turns up with a friend or her 70 year old mother and wants a go; actually the 70 year old was rather good. I put it down to her being a Northern Lass.

Madahlia

06-08-2010, 07:36 AM

If only this were universally true. My experience is that there are many ladies
like Madahlia who find/found relaxing into the embrace really difficult.
One dancer has commented on Sallycat's "The Gift" post on her blog
recently about her own problems.
http://sallycatway.com/?p=2537

Thanks for this, JohnEm, it usually feels unmentionable to admit that I don't always enjoy CE. Shall we say, when it's good it's very, very good, but when it's bad it's horrid!
Having said that, I wish that I had been taught elements of CE from the very start. I think it's not unreasonable, for example, to teach figures using OE but to practise basic walks in CE. Then it would not have been such a shock and I wouldn't have acquired the habit of OE so thoroughly. Most teachers seem to assume that CE just happens magically but I think it requires a lot of practice, cooperation, adjustment and sheer physical compatibility to make it work most of the time, and sometimes it never will.

I have however seen a whole room,
packed with novice dancers encouraged just to hold each other and walk in the embrace. Me too, ending with a group hug! It really helped to clear the mists away from my understanding of CE. So it can be done.

dchester

06-08-2010, 08:00 AM

The embrace makes the dance so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.
The problem we have to deal with here, is that not all women want the same thing. Some women absolutely do want what you have described, but not all (probably not even half).

The concept of the follower "surrendering" to the lead does not seem to be taught by many teachers here. Some actually teach something very different, the idea of the follower being an "active participant" which (as best as I can understand it) seems to mean she will occasionally do something else other than what is lead, or "invited".

newbie

06-08-2010, 10:59 AM

so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.

Sure. Nothing will happen. Very safe. Once you've put this chain, the "anywhere" is more anywhere in a box than anywhere in the world. Now on the other side you have followers who are actually ready to learn how to follow, why do you want to reduce from the start their possibilities to 2D-tango?

Steve Pastor

06-08-2010, 11:18 AM

She went into the embrace of the milonguero and did not question it. In one hour she was dancing and following everything he did. She had no problem whatsoever.

The embrace makes the dance so easy for us. If only more men would realize that we want to feel good there and then we will follow them anywhere.

Question to Jan, and other women.

So, do you think it's a "When in Rome..." kind of thing?
I know that when I travel, I do my best to learn the local customs, and the follow them.
Based on my experience in Portland practicas, I would expect that the same women who accept the embrace to pretty much revert to USA /European behavior after a short while back home.

Steve Pastor

06-08-2010, 11:20 AM

The concept of the follower "surrendering" to the lead does not seem to be taught by many teachers here. Some actually teach something very different, the idea of the follower being an "active participant" which (as best as I can understand it) seems to mean she will occasionally do something else other than what is lead, or "invited".

Yes, indeed. They are teaching what fits in the current man/woman culture in the US.
It's interesting to note the changes in dance texts over the decades, too.

Mladenac

06-08-2010, 11:28 AM

The problem we have to deal with here, is that not all women want the same thing. Some women absolutely do want what you have described, but not all (probably not even half).

The concept of the follower "surrendering" to the lead does not seem to be taught by many teachers here. Some actually teach something very different, the idea of the follower being an "active participant" which (as best as I can understand it) seems to mean she will occasionally do something else other than what is lead, or "invited".

I mean by active that she actively listens to the music, and that she is not like a bag i.e. I do not carry her on the dance floor and of course she is always late.

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 12:40 PM

I think we are discussing CE in this thread as though we agree on what it is, but I'm pretty sure we don't.

I also don't think we are in agreement on what a "beginner" is...

a first timer?
someone who's had <4 lessons?
someone who's had 4-8 lessons?

I know people who've been dancing for quite awhile who still dance like they are in their first month or 2.

What is a beginner?
Even Mario tried to get answers based on more than one definition of "beginner" in his OP, but we continue to discuss them as though they are all the same.

Mario7

06-08-2010, 12:44 PM

When dancing with beginners, your leads have to be very clear, and typically, more force and/or support is needed. You have to ensure that you stay very stable. For me, it seems to work much better in close embrace, as long as the follower is comfortable with that. Simple walking (slow beats only) is a good start, although rock steps (and rock step turns) seem to be fine with beginners, even with quick steps.

With ochos, you must be clear to distinguish the pivot portion of the lead from the step portion of the lead. If she is a new beginner, then I won't lead the cross, and I'll always take the extra step when going into or coming out of cross system (like for ochos).

I will remember this, too. Many thanks!

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 12:51 PM

@Zoopsia
When the CE was introduced the lady instructor said to ladies that they should have some form of heels.
She has been dancing for AT 7 yrs, dance teacher in Latin/standard, and had numerous group and private lesson with various AT teachers.
.

My first reaction is.. "So?"

Maybe that sounds snide, but the resume doesn't impress me as much as maybe you intended. I've been dancing at least that long and have also had numerous group and private lessons. I also don't think experience in Latin standard is relevant.

Its EASIER in heels. That doesn't mean heels are required. The amount of lean plays a role as does the flexibility of the achilles.

And I TOTALLY disagree that one should dance with their heel off the floor when in flats. We had this discussion on another thread and the general consensus seemed to be that it is less stable/ grounded/ whatever and that leaders have a hard time feeling the follower's position and weight when she is standing on her toes. I know a few followers who dance this way when they take off their heels, but they have VERY strong feet. I wouldn't advise the average follower to dance all night with her heels off the floor.

I'll stick with the instruction given to me by Rebecca Shulman, Angeles Chanaha, Mariana Galassi. Mariella Frangenillo and others. I'm pretty sure they know what they are talking about... (even though they don't teach Latin Standard. ;) ) It works for me and improves my dancing. I've only had ONE teacher tell me to dance without putting my heels down. EVERYONE else has instructed to get them down regardless of the shoes.

This is all pretty unrelated to the OP, so if you want to discuss it further, mayb we should take it to the thread already begun for follower technique as relates to heels and toe dancing...

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 12:56 PM

I know several teachers who start people off in CE - and it works quite well - especially the concepts of lead, follow and connection are much easier to understand if they are not mediated by the arms. Considering how difficult it is to get the right dynamic tension in the arms that does not surprise me. n my experience if there is a problem it is with the beginning _leaders_; Followers seem to be quite comfortable with the "hug", leaders seem to feel that they would have much more control and freedom of movement if they could move her around with their arms, and they are more uncomfortable/awkward in being in close contact with somebody. In my experience total beginners are quite comfortable in close embrace if they see that it is the norm in the community. Gssh

Leaders are also usually worried about stepping on their partner. So its important to give them instruction on the correct way to initiate movement and to have "purposefulness" in their movement so the follower moves out of the way. I think starting them this way gets some of the "wishy-washy" out of their moves right off the bat. If they are wishy-washy, then the whole thing falls apart pretty quick.

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 12:58 PM

IME Going private with a instructor only is disastrous, unless he know how to lead and follow very well, which is very rare.

Not so rare around here. So I disagree that it is disasterous. That seems a rather extreme view.

That said, I encourage anyone I teach to take from others as well.

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 01:14 PM

Thanks for this, JohnEm, it usually feels unmentionable to admit that I don't always enjoy CE. Shall we say, when it's good it's very, very good, but when it's bad it's horrid!
Having said that, I wish that I had been taught elements of CE from the very start. I think it's not unreasonable, for example, to teach figures using OE but to practise basic walks in CE. Then it would not have been such a shock and I wouldn't have acquired the habit of OE so thoroughly. Most teachers seem to assume that CE just happens magically but I think it requires a lot of practice, cooperation, adjustment and sheer physical compatibility to make it work most of the time, and sometimes it never will..

I agree that when its bad, its horrid. Luckily, not that many leaders around here use it, and those that do are NOT horrid!

My personal view is that there are certain things one HAS to do correctly in CE that one can "fudge" in OE. So waiting too long to introduce CE allows bad tendencies to become ingrained habits that must be unlearned. I think this is why some of the dancers I know have had much more trouble going from OE to CE than I had doing the reverse. Of course, there is one bad habit that small CE women can develop, and that is not keeping their own balance as well as they should and depending too much on the leader for stability. But once they open up to OE, they have to fix this pretty darn quick.

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 01:16 PM

Now on the other side you have followers who are actually ready to learn how to follow, why do you want to reduce from the start their possibilities to 2D-tango?

Huh?
Are you suggeting that followers who do CE don't learn how to follow?

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 01:18 PM

Question to Jan, and other women.

So, do you think it's a "When in Rome..." kind of thing?
I know that when I travel, I do my best to learn the local customs, and the follow them.
Based on my experience in Portland practicas, I would expect that the same women who accept the embrace to pretty much revert to USA /European behavior after a short while back home.

I haven't traveled for tango all that much (but I have been to B'Aries) I do my best to learn as many different styles as possible. I want to dance, not sit watching. I'll dance whatever the leader leads, although I am better at some things than others simply because of the amount of time I've spent doing them.

Zoopsia59

06-08-2010, 01:19 PM

I mean by active that she actively listens to the music, and that she is not like a bag i.e. I do not carry her on the dance floor

Even a follower in simple CE should be doing this. This is not a CE vs OE thing, nor a "active participant vs surrender" thing. The follower needs to be listening to the music and also not be a dead weight regardless of style or level of "lead hijack" she is doing.

jantango

06-08-2010, 05:10 PM

The problem we have to deal with here, is that not all women want the same thing. Some women absolutely do want what you have described, but not all (probably not even half).

The concept of the follower "surrendering" to the lead does not seem to be taught by many teachers here. Some actually teach something very different, the idea of the follower being an "actime participant" which (as best as I can understand it) seems to mean she will occasionally do something else other than what is lead, or "invited".

As I wrote in another post, there are those who want to show off. That is fine when you are 30 and are able to do it. What does your wife want?

Surrendering is not taught in the USA by the majority -- steps are what people want to buy, not feeling.

Women who want to tango with Argentines in BsAs will learn to follow or spend lots of time sitting out. Word gets around about those who want to take charge.

bastet

06-08-2010, 06:09 PM

Sure. Nothing will happen. Very safe. Once you've put this chain, the "anywhere" is more anywhere in a box than anywhere in the world. Now on the other side you have followers who are actually ready to learn how to follow, why do you want to reduce from the start their possibilities to 2D-tango?

Perhaps this is another thread entirely but I guess I've always considered it to be more important that we expressing the music, not that one move is better than another at doing that. That, of course, almost automatically begs the question that one embrace is better than another if you think you can only have 3 dimensional dancing in a particular embrace or only if every move possible is available to you.

Perhaps it's just me, but I tend to think of people whom I dance with that can make a smaller set of vocabulary fill and express an entire dance if they need to and make it exciting often as better dancers than those who feel like they need a 4 page file of them to get through a song. (Type of embrace being irrelevant to my opinion here.)

AndaBien

06-08-2010, 06:27 PM

... I guess I've always considered it to be more important that we [are] expressing the music, not that one move is better than another at doing that...

Perhaps it's just me, but I tend to think of people whom I dance with that can make a smaller set of vocabulary fill and express an entire dance if they need to and make it exciting often as better dancers than those who feel like they need a 4 page file of them to get through a song...

When I was dancing in my 20s I thought the more patterns the better, but I realize now that is a mental evaluation: a bigger number is better than a smaller number. Quantity over quality. Now I understand that I can put more expression and nuance into the most simple steps. Trying to get expressive with a triple-sacada/barrida sequence is challenging. Being expressive with a side-step/pause/side-step is easier, and there are unlimited variations on that sequence.

dchester

06-08-2010, 07:06 PM

As I wrote in another post, there are those who want to show off. That is fine when you are 30 and are able to do it. What does your wife want?

Surrendering is not taught in the USA by the majority -- steps are what people want to buy, not feeling. She wants to do it all (connection sometimes, as well as fancy steps). I really don't think it has much to do with showing off, though. She's just the "free spirit" type. Sometimes she will happily do the surrender thing, but every now and then . . .

;)

She's a much better dancer than I am at this stuff, probably because she had a ballet background as a kid (either that, or I'm just not very good, so I go with the ballet excuse). I do occasionally tease her and tell her I have more rhythm than she does, though. She's actually a lot better at doing quick steps, then some people who have been doing tango for a lot longer (and younger than her). She likes dancing fast stuff with me, a lot more that others seem to. She also says that she likes vals with me the best. I guess she likes some of my turns.

BTW, she likes a lot more alternative music than I do, (I'm rather selective about what alternative stuff I like, but I really do like some of it).

ant

06-21-2010, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by ant http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=801318#post801318)
Would it be fair to say that you started in CE in your very first lesson?

Even the most ardent CE teachers I know start their pupils off in OE in order to introduce the concepts of walking, lead and follow and connection.

I know several teachers who start people off in CE - and it works quite well - especially the concepts of lead, follow and connection are much easier to understand if they are not mediated by the arms. Considering how difficult it is to get the right dynamic tension in the arms that does not surprise me. n my experience if there is a problem it is with the beginning _leaders_; Followers seem to be quite comfortable with the "hug", leaders seem to feel that they would have much more control and freedom of movement if they could move her around with their arms, and they are more uncomfortable/awkward in being in close contact with somebody. In my experience total beginners are quite comfortable in close embrace if they see that it is the norm in the community. Gssh

Hi Gssh

I met the teacher I had in mind when I made my post above and discussed your post with her.

Her response was that in an ideal world she would start teaching using CE. However in the UK she feels that in a standard beginners class most of the people attending are using 90% of their courage just to come to the class and she felt that it would be wrong to take the other 10% in the first lesson. In other countries where the issue of personal space was not so sensitive she would start in CE.

Dave Bailey

06-22-2010, 08:13 AM

Hi Gssh

I met the teacher I had in mind when I made my post above and discussed your post with her.

Her response was that in an ideal world she would start teaching using CE. However in the UK she feels that in a standard beginners class most of the people attending are using 90% of their courage just to come to the class and she felt that it would be wrong to take the other 10% in the first lesson. In other countries where the issue of personal space was not so sensitive she would start in CE.
I did an "embrace" class on Sunday - for beginners (notes here (http://www.learningtango.com/Classes/Notes-June2010.html#20June)).

I tackled this problem by simply telling them about it - about the differences, and about the challenges / benefits of both.

I then sprent 50% of the time on open embrace, and 50% on close embrace. Although I did, admittedly, start with open embrace.

I think it's reasonable to teach both, because it's reasonable to dance both, depending on the style of music you're dancing to. What's not reasonable is to ignore the "other" embrace, or to pretend that - for example - walking in open embrace is better than in close.

ant

06-22-2010, 09:06 AM

I did an "embrace" class on Sunday - for beginners (notes here (http://www.learningtango.com/Classes/Notes-June2010.html#20June)).
I then sprent 50% of the time on open embrace, and 50% on close embrace. Although I did, admittedly, start with open embrace.
What's not reasonable is to ignore the "other" embrace, or to pretend that - for example - walking in open embrace is better than in close.

From your notes this seems to be your second lesson and the approach you have adopted seems to be the same as the teacher I spoke to.

My own personal experience was that that CE was never taught or mentioned in the school where I learnt.

It will be interesting to see when you observe your students start to use CE consistantly from choice when dancing in practicas and/or milongas.

Dave Bailey

06-22-2010, 09:30 AM

From your notes this seems to be your second lesson
Yes - although the lessons are not linked, I'm deliberately keeping them as standalone. And several of the beginners on Sunday were total novices - this was their very first lesson.

It will be interesting to see when you observe your students start to use CE consistantly from choice when dancing in practicas and/or milongas.
From observation, and admittedly from a small sample of students, they seem to be very comfortable in CE when dancing with each other, but less so when dancing with people they don't know.

bordertangoman

06-22-2010, 09:48 AM

From your notes this seems to be your second lesson and the approach you have adopted seems to be the same as the teacher I spoke to.

My own personal experience was that that CE was never taught or mentioned in the school where I learnt.

It will be interesting to see when you observe your students start to use CE consistantly from choice when dancing in practicas and/or milongas.

a few years back i wouldnt have mentioned close embrace until people could actual move around a room together and do the basic stuff; I tried it a couple of times and you just got bad dancing and a lot of toes being stepped on; now I do a combination;d do the stuff first in open then when people can do it well, and balanced and not relying on eaach other then take it into close embrace, but now some of the people are bues dancers so CE is less of a deal but they still need to shift their posture forward.

Steve Pastor

06-22-2010, 10:49 AM

some of the people are bues dancers so CE is less of a deal but they still need to shift their posture forward

Kind of like ballet dancers.

Captain Jep

06-22-2010, 12:06 PM

a few years back i wouldnt have mentioned close embrace until people could actual move around a room together and do the basic stuff; I tried it a couple of times and you just got bad dancing and a lot of toes being stepped on; now I do a combination;d do the stuff first in open then when people can do it well, and balanced and not relying on eaach other then take it into close embrace, but now some of the people are bues dancers so CE is less of a deal but they still need to shift their posture forward.

Dont you think it's good though for people to get their toes stepped on?

In open embrace you can always cheat by looking at your feet. In CE you cant. The leader has to project his movement forward and the follower has to be prepared to really step out backwards. I think getting this right at the start is crucial. Because some people dont, and then they never really get it right later on.

Madahlia

06-22-2010, 04:33 PM

but now some of the people are bues dancers so CE is less of a deal but they still need to shift their posture forward.
I was a blues dancer and it was still a big deal. The tango embrace is much more intrusive, intense and personal than the play-sexy camp stuff people do in blues.

bordertangoman

06-23-2010, 03:33 AM

I was a blues dancer and it was still a big deal. The tango embrace is much more intrusive, intense and personal than the play-sexy camp stuff people do in blues.

intense possibly but intrusive, I would hope not; if the follower is not comfortable( on an emotional/psychological level) in a close embrace with me what possibility is there of a nice dance?

Madahlia

06-23-2010, 04:36 AM

intense possibly but intrusive, I would hope not; if the follower is not comfortable( on an emotional/psychological level) in a close embrace with me what possibility is there of a nice dance?

It's a prolonged cheek to cheek, chest to chest close contact. We do not normally have that kind of physical closeness with anyone except our own children or lovers. But tango demands that level of contact, often with complete strangers. How can it seem anything other than intrusive until we learn to adjust and desensitise ourselves to it?

As with the pseudosexual contact of blues dancing we toughen ourelves up so that what might otherwise be a heightened sensual/psychological experience is utterly mundane and workaday. The opposite of what the Victorians did, in fact - their repression and prudery meant that the smallest physical contact or exposure could be invested with powerful meaning.

Mario7

06-23-2010, 07:00 AM

It's a prolonged cheek to cheek, chest to chest close contact. We do not normally have that kind of physical closeness with anyone except our own children or lovers. But tango demands that level of contact, often with complete strangers. How can it seem anything other than intrusive until we learn to adjust and desensitise ourselves to it? .

This all reads very true to me. In fact, I have not yet 'desensitised' myself sufficiently and I sometimes worry that I will be 'found out'..:(:roll:
'

bordertangoman

06-23-2010, 09:19 AM

I was a blues dancer and it was still a big deal. The tango embrace is much more intrusive, intense and personal than the play-sexy camp stuff people do in blues.

I'm obviously dancing with a different crowd..but I know what you mean
but usually I'm trying to dance with the thumping thing inside the ribcage rather than the lumps outside it.

Ampster

06-23-2010, 11:39 AM

It's a prolonged cheek to cheek, chest to chest close contact. We do not normally have that kind of physical closeness with anyone except our own children or lovers. But tango demands that level of contact, often with complete strangers. How can it seem anything other than intrusive until we learn to adjust and desensitise ourselves to it?

A chronicle of my (first time) reactions to this predicament---> Click here! (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/08/first-time-i-danced-with-stranger.html)

Madahlia

06-23-2010, 01:01 PM

A chronicle of my (first time) reactions to this predicament---> Click here! (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/08/first-time-i-danced-with-stranger.html)!

Roflol! Don't even make me think about CE where another set of boobs are involved!

bordertangoman

06-23-2010, 03:16 PM

!

Roflol! Don't even make me think about CE where another set of boobs are involved!

I recall one lady in Cambridge whose boobs were always rather hot, literally. Made me wonder.........

Dave Bailey

06-24-2010, 04:12 AM

!

Roflol! Don't even make me think about CE where another set of boobs are involved!
OK, now I'm thinking about it... ;)

opendoor

06-24-2010, 04:34 AM

Had no real dance experience before I started TA. And in my second tango week at all (I am an autodidact and learned in milongas first) a huge woman stood up and told me that since I had done my first tango steps I should dance in close hold from now on. She picked me up and I felt almost paralyzed, my nose suspended somewhere between her boobs and my legs dangling somewhere in the nirvana, not to be about to do any step at all... When I was put down on earth I realy felt relieved. Dancing with beginners today I actually introduce it the soft way now: changing embrace to and fro fluently within a dance from close to open and to beginners´frame. Think it is important for a follower to learn, that the man´s shoulder is a slide. And I think it is also important to show a (female) beginner how to use the left palm when she does not want to dance that closely with someone.

bordertangoman

06-24-2010, 04:50 AM

!

Roflol! Don't even make me think about CE where another set of boobs are involved!

perhaps thats another good reason why women dont lead women in BsAs??

Madahlia

06-24-2010, 05:00 PM

perhaps thats another good reason why women dont lead women in BsAs??
Have Argentinian women got some unusual feature in the chest department that we poor European ladies do not possess?

Peaches

06-24-2010, 06:23 PM

Ampster

06-25-2010, 12:08 AM

Now thinking of the term I heard somewhere, probably here on D-F: interlocking boobies.

Gotta say, having danced with a woman leader a few times...it's kinda tricky. Boobs have something of a muffling effect on the lead. Mine are big enough...add in another girl's, and it can be kinda difficult to feel what's going on. OTOH, I've danced with women leaders who are small and slim and *ahem* not so gifted *ahem* and it's easier to feel the lead, but they also feel so...breakable. Granted it's the same as dancing with a very small, slim guy...who also just feels breakable.

(What can I say? I'm very self-conscious about my size--both boob-wise and otherwise. But it can, actually, affect how physically pleasant a dance feels.)

I actually find it harder to dance with a well endowed woman for the same reason Peaches outlines.

IMHE, they're like shock absorbers that muffle the lead. In order to compensate for that, one needs to adjust their lead to be more deliberate, very slightly longer in duration, and with a little bit more commitment.

Subliminal

06-25-2010, 01:05 AM

Have Argentinian women got some unusual feature in the chest department that we poor European ladies do not possess?

I've heard they're like magnets, on account of being so close to the south pole. You get two ladies of opposing polarity trying to dance together and things go flying everywhere.

opendoor

06-25-2010, 04:56 AM

..shock absorbers..

http://www.pitopia.de/pictures/standard/f/fotofritz/33/fotofritz_64433.jpg

Dave Bailey

06-25-2010, 05:23 AM

Have Argentinian women got some unusual feature in the chest department that we poor European ladies do not possess?
Clearly this is a topic requiring detailed study.

Possibly a government grant will be required.

Peaches

06-25-2010, 08:51 AM

I've heard they're like magnets, on account of being so close to the south pole. You get two ladies of opposing polarity trying to dance together and things go flying everywhere.
Er...wouldn't that be two women of the same polarity? Opposing polarity = attraction, no? Or do I just have a completely different metal image going on of what you meant (it's very amusing regardless).

Peaches

06-25-2010, 08:52 AM

I actually find it harder to dance with a well endowed woman for the same reason Peaches outlines.

IMHE, they're like shock absorbers that muffle the lead. In order to compensate for that, one needs to adjust their lead to be more deliberate, very slightly longer in duration, and with a little bit more commitment.Yep. I find a difference between if I'm dancing with a bra versus not, for one reason or another. The latter is definitely easier.

Subliminal

06-25-2010, 09:08 AM

Er...wouldn't that be two women of the same polarity? Opposing polarity = attraction, no? Or do I just have a completely different metal image going on of what you meant (it's very amusing regardless).

Actually, both scenarios would be amazing. :D

(But yeah, you're right. I fail at basic physics. :oops: )

Mario7

06-25-2010, 11:35 AM

Crikey, why don't all of you just grow up!:shock:

Peaches

06-25-2010, 11:47 AM

Oh, right. Humor and levity are absolutely, positively, NOT ALLOWED in the realm of tango. How silly of me to forget.

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

Boobs are a fact of life, and they are a fact of close embrace tango. Things being what they are in Western society, there's so much other emotional *stuff* that goes along with them. Learning to turn that off, or to rethink our "relationship" to them is a real part of tango, especially for a beginner; it can be difficult, both for men and women, to learn to be OK with a sort of contact that is generally frowned upon. And, there is the very real physical aspect of things, which Ampster and I had both commented on. Is it so flippin' wrong to discuss those things, and to use humor in doing so?

Oh...right..no humor allowed.