Dancing and drinking

[MacMoto]

One of the most common problems cited as the reason when a dance venue stops holding dance nights is poor bar takings. Dancers just don't drink enough to keep club owners happy.

What is your usual drinking pattern when you go out for dancing? Why? Your thoughts?

[Purr]

I usually drink bottled water at clubs. I can't drink and dance - alcohol just makes me too lethargic and sleepy. And soft drinks have too much sugar in them.

[Sagitta]

No drinking. Cannot afford it. :( Also cannot dance and drink -- physically incapable of doing so.

[squirrel]

I usually drink beer... and so do most of my friends here... but not hard stuff... soft drinks or beer (and not too much beer... 'cause there goes the spinning ability!)

[foursquare]

Typical night:

Start with a couple martinis for courage, have a smoke, then go dance. Order something to eat, switch to beer for further courage, chat with the bartender. Dance, drink, smoke, dance, drink, smoke, repeat as needed.
Walk out with $40 - $60 tab (that's for two of us.) Tip well. Sneer at the people ordering A SINGLE BOTTLE OF WATER FOR THE NIGHT.

foursquare

[Flat Shoes]

Depends on where I am. I seldom dance at clubs, mostly it's events held by the scene itself. And on these eventes there are usually no bars, but lots of free water.

If I am at a place with a bar, I usually buy one or two soft drinks or ask for water. If water is free, I tip.

I seldom combine alcohol with dancing. It might be a glass or two of wine, or a couple of beer with the food, if I'm eating right before dancing. In general I try to avoid having an alcohol smelling breath.

[virginiadancegirl]

Depends on where I am and who I'm with....

Out with students - a drink or two, then flavored water or sodas.

Just out for a fun evening with my partner - a couple of drinks. Enough to loosen up sometimes, but not enough to affect my dancing....

[Pacion]

I am pretty much a non-drinker. Never liked the taste of beer or other alcohol and ocassionally, might have a glass of wine but not much. Probably because of a low tolerance, my body tends to feel the alcohol in wine very quickly. So, I stick to the soft drinks/water when dancing.

[salsachinita]

Generally I am a non-drinker, but I love my cowboy shots when the waitress carries them out on a tray for $5 a pop!

Bottle water or free water would be my usual drinks. Otherwise one Midori & Lemonade will do me for the night. Cocktails are for special occasions or when I absolutely need to drink for one reason or another :roll: !

Sangria is my choice if there's food.

All these from a so-called non-drinker :lol: .....so I've voted "other"!

[Sabor]

on a dance night, usually its 3 drinks, in that order..

1 beer (beginning of night)
1 soft drink (middle)
1 bottle of water (end)

[Genesius Redux]

I figure, let the newbies do all the drinking--and the visitors. I can't afford to blow a lot of money on drinks, and I'd rather keep sucking down bottled water while I'm dancing. Would I drink if I were practicing martial arts? I don't think so....

One exception--at my salsa venue, they have happy hour there from 8 until 10. If I'm in a certain mood, and I feel more like sitting around and watching, then I'll order the tequila shots--2 for $4. Line up like 8 early in the evening, and have a blast!

FYI--The eight shots are there so I can persuade my friends to drink with me; I don't down all eight, even in the course of a whole evening! :wink:

[Pacion]

FYI--The eight shots are there so I can persuade my friends to drink with me; I don't down all eight, even in the course of a whole evening! :wink:

Thanks for the clarification :wink: :lol:

[foursquare]

I figure, let the newbies do all the drinking--and the visitors. I can't afford to blow a lot of money on drinks, and I'd rather keep sucking down bottled water while I'm dancing. Would I drink if I were practicing martial arts? I don't think so....

I don't think your local martial arts establishment is banking their bottom line on bar sales (at least not that I'm aware of :wink: )

Here's the problem, at least as I see it from experience in my area. The bars and restaurants that host and have hosted weekly dances are in the business of selling food and alcohol, not providing dance space. Their hope is that if you bring in a crowd, at least a portion of that crowd is going to be eating and drinking. If they're not, what is the benefit to the bar/restaurant of continuing to provide the dance space? They lose money providing staff, the staff is pissed off and doesn't want to work for little or no tips, and the newbs and guests can't possibly be asked or relied on to take up the slack eating-and-drinking-wise.

I've seen two establishments close their doors to dancing in the less-than-a-year I've been doing it, and just for the reasons stated above. Pretty soon your left with studio dancing, and while there's nothing wrong with that, you're not going to have a very public face on the dancing to bring in the new people.

IMNSHO.

foursquare
(Maybe a bigger cover at the door? But I've seen that fail too... few people showed because few dancers would pay it.)

[DWise1]

Actually, my drinking habits vary according to the type of venue.

We have some dance clubs here that do not serve alcohol and that offer free water; they make their money from charging admission and do not run any kind of concession stand. In that case, I bring my own bottle of water and then refill the bottle periodically. Same thing in classes. Of course, I defer immediately to those who have to suck their water out of those tiny dixie cups; I tell them it's going to take me much longer to charge my bottle than they their cup.

We also have a couple Lindy nights during the week at a restaurant/bar. Since I can stay no more than a couple hours, I'll drink some water before going in, order a coke from the bar about half-way through, and drink some more water when I get back to my car.

I have had a beer a couple times, but with a meal. I started out with the attitude that there's so much for me to think about on the dance floor and that I need all my wits about me totally unimpaired by alcohol (my wits already have a big hurdle to get over just by tagging along with me) and, although I'm maybe now starting to get to point where alcohol wouldn't have as significant an effect on my dancing as at first, I still prefer to go alcohol-free.


The concern about losing a dance night because of poor patronage of the bar is very real. They used to have a WCS night at the same restaurant/bar as our Lindy nights, but it was discontinued because the establishment wasn't making money on it; in other words, poor patronage of the bar. I read somewhere that, even though alcoholic drinks cost more than soft drinks, the profit margin on soft drinks is much greater so you're actually not being cheep by buying a coke instead of booze. I don't know whether the place charges for water (I think I've seen some bottled water being sold) nor what the profit margin is on water.

And don't forget to tip. The owner is going to ask the waitresses about how the dance nights are working out.

[Vince A]

Hmmmmmmm . . . interesting thread . . . keep it going!

I am interested in this pon a personal basis, as a frien and I are contemplating opening up a dance place . . . WCS, ECS, Lindy, NC2S, Cha Cha, Salsa . . . maybe others if requested.

Strictly a "dress up place" . . . classy . . . no cover charge (to start) . . . killer sound system . . . kinda of a retro-disco look . . . AND . . .

NO alcohol . . . yet our holdup is knowing the fact that was mentioned above . . . no alcohol served and the general public won't come! Or come back, whichever!

We are toying with the idea of a "water bar" - trying to get specific waters on tap . . . making up some of our own "water drinks" that could taste similar to the alcohol equivalent. Then we will try to get every bottled water and have it on hand . . . and keep the stock according to popularity.

Anyone have any good ideas - on anything???

[salsachinita]

How about a freshly squeezed juice bar, with all sorts of fruit cocktail options...? I would sooooooo kill for one of those at my salsa venues!

[MacMoto]

Here's the problem, at least as I see it from experience in my area. The bars and restaurants that host and have hosted weekly dances are in the business of selling food and alcohol, not providing dance space. Their hope is that if you bring in a crowd, at least a portion of that crowd is going to be eating and drinking. If they're not, what is the benefit to the bar/restaurant of continuing to provide the dance space? They lose money providing staff, the staff is pissed off and doesn't want to work for little or no tips, and the newbs and guests can't possibly be asked or relied on to take up the slack eating-and-drinking-wise.
This is why I've raised this subject. There's been a debate about finding venues for salsa on the Salsaholics (http://www.salsaholics.co.uk/frames.html) message board, and the problem basically is that salsa doesn't attract the drinking crowd. An established Friday salsa night in Edinburgh has recently become a "latin night", mainly playing merengue and Spanish chart music, because of this problem. Not that the club owner has anything against salseros, but he's got a business to run and can't afford to keep losing money.

I'm a water drinker who, like many of you, cannot dance with alcohol in me, and although I hate to see dance venues disappear, I can't do much more than buying bottled water instead of free tap water. Another problem is that salseros often travel from out of town to these venues, which means they have to drive. Dancers and alcohol just don't seem to mix...

Vince's idea of a classy dance paradise sounds great to us dancers, of course, but would it be economically viable?

[Vince A]

I like the juice idea . . . having blenders handy to make "Orange Julius-type" drinks and other blended juice drinks????

Mac . . . your statement regarding economic viability is the exact reason that it is not open yet. I don't want to do the cover charge, but to make some profits to cover at least the DJ, it may be necessary.

We plan on a large floor, no food, no snacks (for now - who knows what we may do in the future?). We also will not make it hot in there to make everyone drink more - we will A/C it!

I appreciate the ideas! I cannot visit all the good dance places to get their good ideas, but I am visiting many of them in CA.

[mellody43]

90% of the time I drink water. I may have one or two alcoholic drinks over the course of a long night.

The last time I drank a lot at an event (Oscar d'Leon concert) -- I overdid it -- and the night is a bit of a blur, sadly! Bleh! I usually avoid that situation ...

Melissa

[tj]

Sneer at the people ordering A SINGLE BOTTLE OF WATER FOR THE NIGHT.

foursquare

Lol! That would be me...
:roll:

(sometimes I'll splurge and get a 2nd bottle of water, lol!)

[mellody43]

Sneer at the people ordering A SINGLE BOTTLE OF WATER FOR THE NIGHT.

foursquare

Lol! That would be me...
:roll:

(sometimes I'll splurge and get a 2nd bottle of water, lol!)

hehe, me too. And if the water is free, I'm all for it. Sometimes I'll get water with lemon or lime at the bar -- nothing is more *******ing!

Melissa

[dancin_feet]

It really all depends on what is happening on the night. If it is a dancing party, I'll stick to water or soft drink. If it is a social night of dinner and maybe a bit of dancing thrown in on the side, then I'll go the alcoholic, but not too many, maybe one or two. Never want to have to turn down a dance because I can't stand up properly! :D

[pygmalion]

One glass of red wine, which I nurse ... unless it's my fave low-class hangout, in which case the wine is BAD! Either way, diet coke and bottled water. Mostly bottled water.

[jon]

Hmmmmmmm . . . interesting thread . . . keep it going!

I am interested in this pon a personal basis, as a frien and I are contemplating opening up a dance place . . . WCS, ECS, Lindy, NC2S, Cha Cha, Salsa . . . maybe others if requested.

Strictly a "dress up place" . . . classy . . . no cover charge (to start) . . . killer sound system . . . kinda of a retro-disco look . . . AND . . .

NO alcohol . . . yet our holdup is knowing the fact that was mentioned above . . . no alcohol served and the general public won't come! Or come back, whichever!

About 8 years ago someone tried opening up a dance club in Raleigh targeted at ballroom dancers. Something like what you describe: a real club atmosphere, multiple dance floors, nice decor, etc.

Got maybe 100 people at the grand opening. Closed a month later because they were going broke. Reopened as a hip-hop club, and stayed that way.

There seem to be only a couple kinds of longterm successful dance venues: bars that attract significant drinking crowds who pay the bills, like country and salsa bars, where the really serious dancers are tolerated for the ambience / entertainment value. Dance studios. And non-profit volunteer run dance societies that rent cheap space somewhere and rely on free labor to fill in the gaps.

[foursquare]

Sneer at the people ordering A SINGLE BOTTLE OF WATER FOR THE NIGHT.

foursquare

Lol! That would be me...
:roll:

(sometimes I'll splurge and get a 2nd bottle of water, lol!)

hehe, me too. And if the water is free, I'm all for it. Sometimes I'll get water with lemon or lime at the bar -- nothing is more *******ing!

Melissa

Yes, yes, all very amusing. In a dance-studio atmosphere, at a special event, that one bottle of water is fine. Those venues are making their money at the door. But when you're at a bar or restaurant that is making dance space available once or twice a week, it's a different story.

It doesn't take long for a manager or owner to figure out that bringing 40 or 50 dancers in the door and grossing a couple hundred dollars for that night (before ANY overhead) is not in the best interest of that bar or restaurant. And there goes another dance spot down the drain. You can enjoy your *******ing water and lime at home watching TV thinking about how maybe you should have ordered at least an appetizer once in awhile.

foursquare
(Used to dance at a local microbrew built in a great old warehouse. They provided space every other Sunday. The second level had a huge original wood floor that was GREAT to dance on. Large bar at one end. Used to draw 30, 40 people. I learned from chatting with the bartender that if I ordered 3 beers during the course of the night, I was consistantly HALF the entire bar take that night. Guess what? We don't dance there no mo. The place either leaves the second floor closed and saves more money than they made on us, or sticks a band up there and makes a mint.)

[Sagitta]

I can see where you are coming from foursquare. Fortunately in my area enough people do buy food and drinks at the dances that we who cannot afford to do so don't cause places to shut us out. :)

[foursquare]

I can see where you are coming from foursquare. Fortunately in my area enough people do buy food and drinks at the dances that we who cannot afford to do so don't cause places to shut us out. :)

That's a good thing. My previous post was probably a bit hotter than I intended, but it really irks me when I like dancing at a place and they cut off that dancing because it isn't profitable to them. I'm going to start wearing a t-shirt that says "Skip a Lesson, Buy Some Cheese Sticks. The Dance You Save May Be Your Own."

The studio dances, to me, are a little sterile and lacking in atmosphere. And to see the places that offer dancing without mirrors on the walls and with a nice big bar in the corner dwindling because of lack of support drives me nuts.

foursquare
(Nothing wrong with studios, of course. But they're in the business of teaching dance, not providing ambiance.)

[Vince A]

About 8 years ago someone tried opening up a dance club in Raleigh targeted at ballroom dancers. Something like what you describe: a real club atmosphere, multiple dance floors, nice decor, etc.

Got maybe 100 people at the grand opening. Closed a month later because they were going broke. Reopened as a hip-hop club, and stayed that way.

There seem to be only a couple kinds of longterm successful dance venues: bars that attract significant drinking crowds who pay the bills, like country and salsa bars, where the really serious dancers are tolerated for the ambience / entertainment value. Dance studios. And non-profit volunteer run dance societies that rent cheap space somewhere and rely on free labor to fill in the gaps.
I hear you jon . . . thanks . . .I've done my homework, and posts like yours kind of cements some of the things that I've discovered. THe other reason we have not opened a place yet!

The other side . . . the very young crowd is the age group that does most of the drinking; less 30 and up age groups are drinking less due to the societal impacts and the cost of DWIs; clubs are getting out of hand with drinking and fights - many are getting tired of this atmosphere.

Other thoughts: I'd love to do a comedy/sports night . . . I'd also plan to have a "blues" jam night for musicians (although many of them are drinkers, and I won't have a liquor license) - I already have this in another place and it's a very big success for about a year now, albeit, that place has beer, wine, and food!

Dancing would only be two nights per week . . . lessons and classes on Sundays?????????

Thanks for the input . . . I took it very serously.

[mellody43]

I can see where you are coming from foursquare. Fortunately in my area enough people do buy food and drinks at the dances that we who cannot afford to do so don't cause places to shut us out. :)

That's a good thing. My previous post was probably a bit hotter than I intended, but it really irks me when I like dancing at a place and they cut off that dancing because it isn't profitable to them. I'm going to start wearing a t-shirt that says "Skip a Lesson, Buy Some Cheese Sticks. The Dance You Save May Be Your Own."

The studio dances, to me, are a little sterile and lacking in atmosphere. And to see the places that offer dancing without mirrors on the walls and with a nice big bar in the corner dwindling because of lack of support drives me nuts.

foursquare
(Nothing wrong with studios, of course. But they're in the business of teaching dance, not providing ambiance.)

I agree with you foursquare. The long-standing venues here in Seattle stick around mainly because they are multifunctional. A few are restaurants/bars (Rock Salt, China Harbor, Beso del Sol) ... one is a full on dance/music venue all the time, so has a variety of events several times a week (Century Ballroom -- they also will do private events). They can charge very low covers for DJd events ($5-7), and only a little bit more for live bands (@ $10 unless they are big names like Gran Combo) -- I am grateful to have the opportunity to dance many times a week and not blow my budget on covers, and that there is no drink minimum. I realize it comes at a price though. However, almost NO clubs in town cater exclusively to one kind of music/dance, and almost all have other ways of bringing in the bucks.

[DWise1]

Other thoughts: I'd love to do a comedy/sports night . . . I'd also plan to have a "blues" jam night for musicians (although many of them are drinkers, and I won't have a liquor license) - I already have this in another place and it's a very big success for about a year now, albeit, that place has beer, wine, and food!
You'd have to double-check on this, but from what I've been told by the owner of a dance club without a liquor license is that that means that she cannot serve alcohol, not that individuals cannot bring in their own and serve themselves. I also know that liquor laws vary from state to state (and from county to county in some states), but we're both in California if I'm not mistaken so what I was told should apply, assuming that her interpretation was correct.

Though of course that opens up the other question of whether you want to allow everyone to bring in alcohol.

Another thought/concern:
One family with teenage boys participates in our Lindy class. Our main Lindy venue is a local restaurant/bar which is out of the question for them because of its 18+ age limit. The other Lindy venue is a ballroom that doesn't sell any drinks and has free water; they can go to that venue as a family.

What would the legal impact be on age limits if customers were allowed to bring in their own alcohol?

[Vince A]

DWise1,
Sorry if it sounded as though I would propose alcohol . . . it's quite the opposite . . . NO ALCOHOL. I was referring to our other place in the foothills that does have a liquor license, and we do get around the age requirements because we also serve food - a restaurant! Yep, we have kids sitting there drinking sodas while their parents are sucking down a draft! The kids, of course, cannot enter the bar area . . .

The palce that I'd like to open would only have water - every brand availab;e, with the exception of any bottled water from France any brands that are outrageously expensive! I'm also toying with the blended juices too . . .

Thanks for the input! It IS appreciated . . .

[DWise1]

DWise1,
Sorry if it sounded as though I would propose alcohol . . . it's quite the opposite . . . NO ALCOHOL. I was referring to our other place in the foothills that does have a liquor license, and we do get around the age requirements because we also serve food - a restaurant! Yep, we have kids sitting there drinking sodas while their parents are sucking down a draft! The kids, of course, cannot enter the bar area . . .

The palce that I'd like to open would only have water - every brand availab;e, with the exception of any bottled water from France any brands that are outrageously expensive! I'm also toying with the blended juices too . . .

Thanks for the input! It IS appreciated . . .
The 18+ venue has the dance floor in the bar area. Actually the whole place is one long bar with dining booths in one area.

A plus with the blended juices is that they can help some people get their blood sugar back up. The alternative I've seen is a snack table with fruits, crackers, cheeze, etc.

[Laura]

I can't drink and dance. The last time I tried it I ended up on my butt on the floor, very embarassed. I had had two kamikazes and this guy was spinning me around and around and around and I lost my balance and fell flat on my ass.

Okay, I should have just drunk beer. I would be more than happy to alternate beer and bottled water or beer and diet coke at a dance venue that had a bar. I'd also be more than happy to spring for decent snacks.

[pygmalion]

kamikaze's? :shock: No wonder you fell down. One of those babies would have me out like a light. I stick with wine. Much gentler on the ... butt. :wink: :lol: No falling down, I mean.

[tj]

Yes, yes, all very amusing. In a dance-studio atmosphere, at a special event, that one bottle of water is fine. Those venues are making their money at the door. But when you're at a bar or restaurant that is making dance space available once or twice a week, it's a different story.

It doesn't take long for a manager or owner to figure out that bringing 40 or 50 dancers in the door and grossing a couple hundred dollars for that night (before ANY overhead) is not in the best interest of that bar or restaurant. And there goes another dance spot down the drain. You can enjoy your *******ing water and lime at home watching TV thinking about how maybe you should have ordered at least an appetizer once in awhile.


Well, honestly you're right, but even if Melissa and I turned into a couple of lushes, it wouldn't change the rest of the dancers.

What usually happens is that each club will close, and a new place elsewhere in town opens up. Been that way for years, and I don't see it changing.

[Sagitta]

If I like a dance I encourage others to come and dance. I've seen many people at dance venues who have come because of my enouragement and have become paying regulars. I like to consider that as part of my contribution to the owners revenues. :wink: :)

[MacMoto]

A recent discussion on the SalsaMAFIA site about salsa dancers not spending money on drinks...

http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1045

[bjp22tango]

The thing that keeps me out of bars that offer dancing is not the need to purchase food/drinks, but the fact that most of them are the only legal smoking venue in town, so every nicotine addict heads there. I lived my childhood with chainsmokers and I don't go ANYWHERE anymore that there is smoking. It's a shame because one local bar always brings in excellent blues bands that are great to dance WC Swing to, but I can't stand the cloud.....

[cocodrilo]

When I go out to clubs, whether it be salsa or a "disco" in Europe, I drink. If I am dancing a lot, I drink less. If I am dancing strictly latin(non- ballroom latin), then I stick to one kind of drink(usually beer or vodka tonic) and also drink plenty of water during the course of the evening. Since most of the parties I go to are put on by my friends, and I love to drink, I support them by buying drinks at the venues. They do likewise at my parties! The clubs are hurting bigtime in Japan at the salsa gigs as nobody buys any alcohol(most of which is provided free to the hosts by Bacardi et al in lieu of advertising.)! And it costs an incredible amount of money to sponsor these large gigs. There is not much the sponsors can do about it. :(

[cocodrilo]

To bjb22tango-
I'm right there on that smoking note! Hate the smoke, the danger of lit fags on the dance floor, and having to fumigate every article of clothing when I get home(this applies to bars and not just clubs in Japan, where EVERYONE is puffing away!)... :evil:

[Sakura]

I'm gonna have to jump on the bandwagon here for smoking.

Once I'm actually of age to get into clubs, I wouldn't want to go anywhere where there was *tons* of smoking. I'm asthmatic and I don't like smoke anyway, so I wouldn't want to deal with that. And as Cocodrilo mentioned, it's a pain to get smoke smells out of your clothes after you've gone to a place where many people are smoking!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

PS-As a note for anyone who didn't/doesn't know, a "fag" is a cigarette. I just thought I'd throw this tidbit out, as I didn't used to know that. Besides our stupid American slang meaning, I knew a "fag" to be a bundle of sticks. So! Learning new words today on DF! :D

[SDsalsaguy]

I love California! Smoking is banned in all bars & nightclubs!!! 8) 8) 8) (with exceptions made only for approriately licensed cigar bars)

[DancingMommy]

Other thoughts: I'd love to do a comedy/sports night . . . I'd also plan to have a "blues" jam night for musicians (although many of them are drinkers, and I won't have a liquor license) - I already have this in another place and it's a very big success for about a year now, albeit, that place has beer, wine, and food!

Dancing would only be two nights per week . . . lessons and classes on Sundays?????????

Do you need a liqour license for BYOB? Perhaps that would work well for your Blues Jam night?

[cocodrilo]

Isn't smoking banned in ALL US states now? Sure was when I was in Kauai, Hawaii 2 years ago! Darn that was nice to go to a fantastic restaurant & not gag on secondhand smoke!

Sakura, I like the club scene more than the 100% salsa scene, but the smoky atmosphere of the former is a drag(no pun intended). :x

I live in the most expensive country in the world, where everything is at least DOUBLE the price of things in the USA, yet a pack of cigarettes is only $2.30. :evil:

[jon]

Isn't smoking banned in ALL US states now?

No, and it will be an awfully long time before it happens in tobacco states like North Carolina and Virginia. Maybe in 20-30 years. Also most of the existing bans are narrowly drawn to protect employees in workplaces, although there are starting to be some efforts to extend the bans to places like beaches.

I'm of mixed feelings about this. Personally it's great because I am mildly allergic to tobacco. But this is only happening because smokng has become socially less acceptable and fewer people do it. If the same methodology were applied to similarly risky, but harder to identify habits like eating a poor diet, it would be rejected as infringing on personal liberty.

All in all I'd rather the government not get in the habit of these kinds of regulations, even though I benefit greatly from this particular one.

[cocodrilo]

Maybe they should have special smoking areas and special booths for eaters of junk food in all public establishments. :lol: No, seriously,I agree with you about the personal liberties issue and believe the gov't. has some really draconian concepts pertaining to the control of certain substances...Now as our nation risks more, healthwise, from obesity than from the dangers of tobacco, they're giong to have to create some anti-twinkie laws or something... :shock:

[pygmalion]

I have no idea what I said in this thread before, and I'm much too lazy to go back and read the whole thing. That said, I have to raise a flag. Did you notice that almost equal numbers of dancers drink free water as drink bottled water? And very few drink alcohol?

Listen, folks, if you don't buy something at these venues, they're going to go out of business and you won't have anywhere to dance. Think about it. You don't have to drink. Buy a platter of hot wings, for Pete's sake. But if you go and drink water from the fountain, it's a pretty good bet you'll be looking for a new dancespot ... and soon. :?

[cocodrilo]

At a 5-hour latin party, I will buy up to 6 drinks and drink as much as 2 liters of water! (Some places give you water free from the bar. I tend to sweat a lot, so sometimes I resort to bringing my own at places where it's OK to do that). I'm doing my best to support club owners/party sponsors while enjoying myself at the same time! :D

[Sakura]

Isn't smoking banned in ALL US states now? Sure was when I was in Kauai, Hawaii 2 years ago! Darn that was nice to go to a fantastic restaurant & not gag on secondhand smoke!

Sakura, I like the club scene more than the 100% salsa scene, but the smoky atmosphere of the former is a drag(no pun intended). :x

I live in the most expensive country in the world, where everything is at least DOUBLE the price of things in the USA, yet a pack of cigarettes is only $2.30. :evil:

1. It is nice, isn't it? 8) (Although, not for smokers, I suppose...)

2. Great pun, intended or not. :wink: :roll:

3. Sadly ironic, isn't it? Although, is that double in converted prices (from the yen to US dollars), or is just the price in yen doubled?

SK :kitty:

[cocodrilo]

A pack o' cigarettes is from 250-300 yen here, depending on the brand. This is the only thing cheaper than the US here!!!In fact, It's less than HALF price! Guess that the largest tobacco conglomerate, JT(Japan Tobacco) strongly supporting the gov't. has a lot to do with it. Kinda like guns in the states... :evil:

[tsb]

Typical night:

Start with a couple martinis for courage, have a smoke, then go dance. Order something to eat, switch to beer for further courage, chat with the bartender. Dance, drink, smoke, dance, drink, smoke, repeat as needed.
Walk out with $40 - $60 tab (that's for two of us.) Tip well. Sneer at the people ordering A SINGLE BOTTLE OF WATER FOR THE NIGHT.

foursquare

if you can afford to drop $150-300/week dancing 3-6 nights (i'm assuming you gotta do laundry sometime) more power to you. but i doubt that most dancers can or would want to; few people can consume 3-4 (or more) drinks in an evening w/o adversely affecting both judgement & motor skills (if you wouldn't want the person driving would you want them on a dance floor with you - or worse - be your partner?).

if the place doesn't charge cover, then yeah, a couple of beverages to support the place is in order. but as i prefer alcohol free venues, the only time i'd go to a place with a liquor license is when there's a band i really want to hear and in that case there usually a cover charge. call it $15 for cover and parking, throw in a couple of bottles of water (at a minimum $3.50 a pop) and i've spent $20-25.

[cocodrilo]

True, tsb, a lot of the folks here come just to DANCE and that is cool, but as a producer of dance parties I just have to say this;
Since these people aren't dropping any money on drinks(be it booze or cola), we have to charge a higher admission. Why? Because the venues expect to make money from selling drinks, and when they realize they are not doing so at our salsa parties, are hitting us up for more cash. We try to keep our overhead as low as possible(i.e. having buddies dj for us for practically pennies, purchasing our own sound system, etc) and we try to please everyone, meaning we usually go home at the end of the night in the red, which is definitely not intended if one owns his or her own club!
As I have experienced it, a night of salsa in Japan is a helluva lot cheaper than a night of partying(dinner, drinks, karaoke, more drinks, ramen at 2:00am for example) where one can easily spend $200-$300! (I know, I know, everyone's going to now say "Like hell am I ever going to Japan! :lol: )

[tsb]

True, tsb, a lot of the folks here come just to DANCE and that is cool, but as a producer of dance parties I just have to say this;
Since these people aren't dropping any money on drinks(be it booze or cola), we have to charge a higher admission. Why? Because the venues expect to make money from selling drinks, and when they realize they are not doing so at our salsa parties, are hitting us up for more cash. We try to keep our overhead as low as possible(i.e. having buddies dj for us for practically pennies, purchasing our own sound system, etc) and we try to please everyone, meaning we usually go home at the end of the night in the red, which is definitely not intended if one owns his or her own club!
As I have experienced it, a night of salsa in Japan is a helluva lot cheaper than a night of partying(dinner, drinks, karaoke, more drinks, ramen at 2:00am for example) where one can easily spend $200-$300! (I know, I know, everyone's going to now say "Like hell am I ever going to Japan! :lol: )

some places include the price of a couple of drinks into the cover & then give them a couple of tickets to redeem at the bar. i don't know if that'll work there but you might want to consider that - and if they don't redeem their tickets they've still paid.

[MacMoto]

As I have experienced it, a night of salsa in Japan is a helluva lot cheaper than a night of partying(dinner, drinks, karaoke, more drinks, ramen at 2:00am for example) where one can easily spend $200-$300! (I know, I know, everyone's going to now say "Like hell am I ever going to Japan! :lol: )
Yes, but food in Japan is soooo good it's worth it! 8)
I take your point that a salsa night is a very cheap option in an expensive place like Japan. Here too, I expect to spend a lot more money going out with non-dancing friends than in a typical night of dancing. I know should drink a lot more (I'm talking soft drinks/bottled water), not just to support clubs but just for the common sense of rehydration... I tend not to go to the bar as often as I should because it means having to miss a couple of songs -- it's the long queue that puts me off. I know it's silly, but what if the DJ decides to play my favourite song when I'm waiting at the bar to be served!? :lol:

[jon]

Listen, folks, if you don't buy something at these venues, they're going to go out of business and you won't have anywhere to dance.

The salsamafia thread linked earlier totally nailed this topic. What you say is true, but it's equally true that most people who've been dancing for any length of time already know this, and aren't going to change their behavior. Why? Because in most situations there are other dance options with different business models, and human nature tends to keep to the same behavior patterns until forced to change.

I'd lay money that in 20 years, this topic will come up just as it does today, just as it did around 1990 when I started dancing, and probably just as it did in the 1920s when the swing era was getting started. Times may change but human nature doesn't.

[squirrel]

I drink beer and water... :) I don't want the venue to go to the smithereens... it's the only one we have!

[cl5814]

There is a saying in our dancing community that, "real dancers don't drink (alcohol)".
Dance venues where you have alcohol served tends to get a lot of "social" (chat only, no dancing) crowd. Dance venues with no smoking or alcohol tends to attract more dancers, serious dancers. I think some finger food (seasonal fruit trays from grocery store tends to be very popular ) and water like everybody else is saying is a good policy for a serious dance venue.

[squirrel]

:) for Romanians, no alcohol and cigarettes is bad! We wouldn't go to such a venue (most of us)! It has to have at least one of the above! And alcohol is more important that cigarettes...

[Sakura]

A pack o' cigarettes is from 250-300 yen here, depending on the brand. This is the only thing cheaper than the US here!!!In fact, It's less than HALF price! Guess that the largest tobacco conglomerate, JT(Japan Tobacco) strongly supporting the gov't. has a lot to do with it. Kinda like guns in the states... :evil:

Yup! Government support *always* plays into it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Although, I don't think guns here in the States is a good example anymore... The Democrats and Liberals are out to get us Gun-Lovers... (No offence to the Democrats and Liberals here on DF! Right now, I'm sharing some of their views! Just leave our Guns alone!! :cry: :cry: )

Nope! I'm still gonna come to Japan! ...I just have to ask my parents for a bigger allowance... :twisted: :lol:

SK :kitty:

[DancePoet]

A few things:

1. Somehow I voted and don't know how? What a bummer! Now the poll is slightly skewed and I haven't truelly voted. Is there a way to give me a second chance?

2. I tend to dance at studios and events. Therefore I tend to drink water, juice, and Gatorade. I really enjoy a glass of wine and this certainly happens at events other then the dance studio. If I was at a different place that serves beer, I might have one, but more likely would order ginger ale all night. Definitely, might splurge on something to eat for me and whomever else came with me.

3. Smoking being banned in public places is the way to go. I won't dance where there is smoke.

4. I'm a Democrat, and I'm pro-gun. I don't mind someone expressing their views, but becareful knocking people's political affiliations.

[pygmalion]

SK is all of fifteen (or is it fourteen?) DancePoet. Her stance on political affiliation and gun control, while heartfelt, might not be tempered with experience.


Two: Um... Let's stay away from hot button issues, okay? Just in case you don't know what I mean... I mean gun control, the Middle East politics or war, abortion, religion in any guise, anything like that ... That's what I mean by hot buttons. Those things are certainly interesting topics of conversation among trusting friends, but they often deteriorate into unnecessary conflict in contexts like this one, and sometimes even among close friends. So why risk it? Plus, talking DANCE is what Dance Forums is about. If you have guns at home or if you don't, doesn't make much difference here. If you dance? Now, that's a different situation entirely. 8)

[jon]

SK is all of fifteen (or is it fourteen?) DancePoet. Her stance on political affiliation and gun control, while heartfelt, might not be tempered with experience.

In contrast to the tempered, well-reasoned, respectful debate on these topics that goes on between, say, our adult elected representatives?

[DancePoet]

Pygmalion:

I was aware of Sakura's age. And she did use the words "no offense" which I took to mean she was trying to cover herself, which was quite good. However, I also wanted to share the idea that all Democrats are not necessarily anti-gun. And I did choose the word "becareful" as a cautionary piece of advice, no insult intended.

Perhaps the second item/paragraph was directed more in general then to a specific person?

Respectfully,
Dancepoet

[tsb]

potential controversy and it didn't involve me. i must be slipping.

[squirrel]

I agree wiht pygmalion... dance goes beyond race, skin colour, political views, height, weight and religion... who cares if I read Dostoievski and somebody else reads nothing but magazines...? certainly not the guys I dance with every night... my weight doesn't matter, the colour of my hair is unimportant... so is the fact that I am caucasian... :) I certainly don't care about the above when I dance...
Are you a good dancer? Are you nice and friendly and polite? Are you dancing to the beat? Do you know Salsa/Bachata?Merengue?Rueda?Street cha cha/Grinding? You're my partner for this song... you don't know the above? Well... then maybe you wanna show me a few steps from Waltz... I've never tried foxtrot... swing sounds interesting... AT is fascinating!
I love dancing and I love music and I love good food and good wine and sunshine and beaches and snow and rain and lovemaking... and above all I adore Salsa!
Wanna develop the subject?

[SDsalsaguy]

Heya DancePoet…yes, how I read it Pygmalion's second paragraph was a general comment.

I assume that no one meant anything to be problematic, but I also agree with Pygmalion's point…the DF is not the place for typically divisive issues. As per the Dance Forum Guidelines, "All dance related topics are welcome…"

Thanks, everyone, for helping keep these forums a positive and productive community.

—Jonathan

[jon]

I love dancing and I love music and I love good food

I was very sad when the last Nepalese restaurant within a reasonable distance closed a few years ago :-(. Wonderful stuff, resembling Indian but with a greater emphasis on complex flavors over spicyness.

[pygmalion]

Pygmalion:

I was aware of Sakura's age. And she did use the words "no offense" which I took to mean she was trying to cover herself, which was quite good. However, I also wanted to share the idea that all Democrats are not necessarily anti-gun. And I did choose the word "becareful" as a cautionary piece of advice, no insult intended.

Perhaps the second item/paragraph was directed more in general then to a specific person?

Respectfully,
Dancepoet

Understood, Dance Poet. I certainly meant no offense to you. And yes, my second paragraph was a general note, not directed at either you or SK, but a general statement. I was pointing out that political debate can be divisive, even in a setting where people know and trust each other.

And, while I love political debate and have some of that duality you allude to in my own political views, I just don't think my political views are pertinent to discussions in DF. Talking about dance can get ... um ... heated all on its own. Why add politics to the mix? :wink:

[pygmalion]

SK is all of fifteen (or is it fourteen?) DancePoet. Her stance on political affiliation and gun control, while heartfelt, might not be tempered with experience.

In contrast to the tempered, well-reasoned, respectful debate on these topics that goes on between, say, our adult elected representatives?

Touche. :lol:

[pygmalion]

All righty then. Back to the topic. I've heard that the new salsa club that's two miles from my house is already struggling. It opened about five months ago, and it's struggling. Good salsa dancing four or five nights a week, good DJ's, an occasional live band, a full menu, free dance classes in the early evening. But nobody's drinking. At least, not enough to keep the place afloat. Alcohol is where the profit margin is.

I wonder if there's a business model that can make a non-alcohol dance establishment successful. Hmm. :?

[DancePoet]

Pygmalion: Thank you! The topics you mention fall within the realm of people's personal values on how society is governed, meaning how decisions are made by some for others. This certainly can be more devisive then most, and it makes sense to tread carefully, if at all. It seems we understand eachother and I am thankful.

SD: Pointing to the Dance Forum Guidelines was very appropriate.

Squirrel: Your post was super! Even poetic! :)

[hepcat]

I only drink water when I'm dancing. I used to only drink free water as I did when I was back in Boston, but upon realizing that the swing scene is too small here in Santa Fe to keep a venue due to lack of drinking, I started buying bottled water. Back in Boston, there were enough newbies (like 90%) to take care of that for me, although they also charged $12 cover at this one place that was always the best when I was there (and apparently is no longer running).

Luckily, there's a charity venue here that holds both a weekly and monthly dance and all the money goes to local school's music programs. They have a water fountain, so I'm all set!

[Doug]

I do not mind paying for the dance floor, the DJ, the band, whatever. But I don't drink nearly enough to cover costs. Proposed alternative approach for club owners: Charge a $5 - $20 cover - whatever it takes to cover costs - and give out 1-4 (Free?) drink tickets per person, exchangable for alcohol, water, pepsi - whatever. That way the people who don't dance (much) still get something for their cover, and those who do dance support the venue without having to drink if that is not their thing.

[Chris Stratton]

I wonder if there's a business model that can make a non-alcohol dance establishment successful. Hmm. :?

Probably. But any location licensed for alcohol is probably going to be more expensive than a comparable one that is not, since it is useable for a variety of heavier on the alcohol, lighter on the dancing events.

Someone looking to hold dances without relying on alcohol income might want to keep that in mind when seeking a building - or if renting space just for the events, look into church, school, community, municipal, etc halls that might be available for a non-alcohol event.

[hepcat]

I wonder if there's a business model that can make a non-alcohol dance establishment successful. Hmm. :?

I've often wondered about that myself. The question is, what will dancers pay for? What will they buy? Many say they have no money, but if the right product was out there (i.e. dance shoes), they'll buy it. They could charge for water, but many will start bringing their own. You also don't want to scare away people who can't afford a lot, so you need something that people can either choose to pay for or not, yet still be there to dance, so a cover charge may not be the answer. I'm afraid of what it would do to the attendance here especially.

Honestly, I can't think of anything that would open the wallets of dancers at a dance event. Maybe CDs, dance lessons each night (that you can opt to take via a small fee), some sort of clothing. None of those things have re-buy potential like alcohol does. They're not sold in quantity. I don't think there is a solution to this other than a large cover or else some sort of organization that's willing to fund it. Wait, what about a club with monthly dues that go toward the rental of a place? That would probably cost a lot more than any one scene could support, so maybe something that spans multiple dance scenes. For example, the place that I attend which donates its money to local school music programs is run by a group called the "Fraternal Order of Oddfellows and Rebekahs". They host a different kind of dance almost every night of the week there. Maybe something akin to that would work. I assume they have fund raisers and that sort of thing. I imagine you could even form some sort of dance troupe and put on performances and charge money to see it.

However all that requires a lot of effort and organization. I don't think there's a simple solution.

[Chris Stratton]

Why not just try to make the events less expensive to run?

[tsb]

Why not just try to make the events less expensive to run?

and the first bit of overhead to go: a decent floor? :oops:

seriously, i imagine that the fixed costs make up the most of the expense - which means a place with a decent sized floor suitably contructed.

[pygmalion]

The way a lot of the local dance promoters get around this is to rent existing floor space for dances. Seems to work pretty well for ballroom and swing, which don't necessarily require the club atmosphere. Salsa? Most people want a club, and that's where the drinking/non-drinking issue comes in. :?

[tsb]

in my experience people who are renting floor space usually aren't doing it to make beaucoup bucks in profit - & the rental is still the major expense, besides liability insurance, assuming that it's not a dance studio one is renting...