Dancing in close embrace... Boobs

[Ampster]

This is a segue thread from here (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=36679). The conversation took it's twists and turns, and the conversation went to chest contact. Specifically about boobs.

I think it deserves it's own thread, as it is relevant when you dance Argentine Tango in close embrace.

Here is how the thread evolved:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madahlia
It's a prolonged cheek to cheek, chest to chest close contact. We do not normally have that kind of physical closeness with anyone except our own children or lovers. But tango demands that level of contact, often with complete strangers. How can it seem anything other than intrusive until we learn to adjust and desensitise ourselves to it?
A chronicle of my (first time) reactions to this predicament---> Click here! (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/08/first-time-i-danced-with-stranger.html)

!

Roflol! Don't even make me think about CE where another set of boobs are involved!

I recall one lady in Cambridge whose boobs were always rather hot, literally. Made me wonder.........

OK, now I'm thinking about it... ;)

Had no real dance experience before I started TA. And in my second tango week at all (I am an autodidact and learned in milongas first) a huge woman stood up and told me that since I had done my first tango steps I should dance in close hold from now on. She picked me up and I felt almost paralyzed, my nose suspended somewhere between her boobs and my legs dangling somewhere in the nirvana, not to be about to do any step at all... When I was put down on earth I realy felt relieved. Dancing with beginners today I actually introduce it the soft way now: changing embrace to and fro fluently within a dance from close to open and to beginners´frame. Think it is important for a follower to learn, that the man´s shoulder is a slide. And I think it is also important to show a (female) beginner how to use the left palm when she does not want to dance that closely with someone.


Now thinking of the term I heard somewhere, probably here on D-F: interlocking boobies.

Gotta say, having danced with a woman leader a few times...it's kinda tricky. Boobs have something of a muffling effect on the lead. Mine are big enough...add in another girl's, and it can be kinda difficult to feel what's going on. OTOH, I've danced with women leaders who are small and slim and *ahem* not so gifted *ahem* and it's easier to feel the lead, but they also feel so...breakable. Granted it's the same as dancing with a very small, slim guy...who also just feels breakable.

(What can I say? I'm very self-conscious about my size--both boob-wise and otherwise. But it can, actually, affect how physically pleasant a dance feels.)


I actually find it harder to dance with a well endowed woman for the same reason Peaches outlines.

IMHE, they're like shock absorbers that muffle the lead. In order to compensate for that, one needs to adjust their lead to be more deliberate, very slightly longer in duration, and with a little bit more commitment.


I've heard they're like magnets, on account of being so close to the south pole. You get two ladies of opposing polarity trying to dance together and things go flying everywhere.



http://www.pitopia.de/pictures/standard/f/fotofritz/33/fotofritz_64433.jpg

QUOTE=Dave Bailey;806102]Clearly this is a topic requiring detailed study.

Possibly a government grant will be required.[/QUOT


Er...wouldn't that be two women of the same polarity? Opposing polarity = attraction, no? Or do I just have a completely different metal image going on of what you meant (it's very amusing regardless).


Er...wouldn't that be two women of the same polarity? Opposing polarity = attraction, no? Or do I just have a completely different metal image going on of what you meant (it's very amusing regardless).


Originally Posted by Ampster
I actually find it harder to dance with a well endowed woman for the same reason Peaches outlines.

IMHE, they're like shock absorbers that muffle the lead. In order to compensate for that, one needs to adjust their lead to be more deliberate, very slightly longer in duration, and with a little bit more commitment.Yep. I find a difference between if I'm dancing with a bra versus not, for one reason or another. The latter is definitely easier.


Crikey, why don't all of you just grow up!:shock:

Oh, right. Humor and levity are absolutely, positively, NOT ALLOWED in the realm of tango. How silly of me to forget.

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

Boobs are a fact of life, and they are a fact of close embrace tango. Things being what they are in Western society, there's so much other emotional *stuff* that goes along with them. Learning to turn that off, or to rethink our "relationship" to them is a real part of tango, especially for a beginner; it can be difficult, both for men and women, to learn to be OK with a sort of contact that is generally frowned upon. And, there is the very real physical aspect of things, which Ampster and I had both commented on. Is it so flippin' wrong to discuss those things, and to use humor in doing so?

Oh...right..no humor allowed.

Crikey, why don't all of you just grow up!:shock:

What do you mean? We are discussing a legitimate aspect of tango. most especially in close embrace. Different body makes, types, sizes, do make a difference in leading. In this case, boobs.

We are trying to keep it as light hearted as possible. I don't see a problem here.

I think this deserves a peripheral thread... I'll go start one

[Ampster]

As I stated earlier, this thread (I believe) is relevant to Argentine Tango because it really makes a difference in your leading when dancing with different women with different builds.

There is nothing malicious in this conversation, and we (Peaches and I) were trying to keep this as light hearted as possible.

[Peaches]

Personally, I find the psychology of the whole thing kinda interesting. And boobs in general, I guess, which sort of feeds into this.

I'm female. Boobs are pretty much uninteresting to me. They make my clothing look good, or not. They catch drips, they get in the way, they're sometimes uncomfortable, they're occasionally useful. But definitely not interesting, no more than my kneecap is interesting. But we're so socialized to think of them as sexual things, and most men seem to regard them as such, and taught not to let anyone touch you there, and you learn to be sorta careful about not letting them get in contact with anyone else. And you get to the point of not thinking about it much (a fact of life), but also rather surrounded with all of this...baggage.

And then you learn AT...

Suddenly all that goes out the window. Ready, set, SQUISH! Now you're pressing yourself up against total strangers, in a manner that would get you dumped by a SO in any other context...and at the same time getting back to the idea that it's no big deal. *scratches head* And it isn't...really...except it sort of is. You just deal with it like it's the elephant in the room that no one will mention and get on with life. And it does become no big deal, which is kind of like how I regard them to begin with.

Except then you start noticing that they affect how to lead (based on what you've said) and how following can feel. So back to thinking about them...but not...

Never mind the whole AT is sensual, and about the embrace, and about men and women...but don't think about those boobs!

Kind of a mind-eff.

ETA: And, also, they're really just kind of funny if you stop to think about things. And the whole situation is kind of amusing...never mind the "interlocking boobies" aspect of two girls dancing together: thinking, "What goes where, now? Lessee, if I shift a bit this way, and you shift a bit that way, then this should work. Hmmm...could stand for some readjustment, but mustn't...am in public."

[mkjohnson]

When I took lessons in apilado (more leaning in than salon and milonguero) it was with a female teacher. And every time we danced, we had that moment or two of boob-alignment issues. She's taller than I am so it wasn't uncomfortable - we 'settled in' pretty quickly. But learning apilado boobs-to-boobs was occasionally challenging, and frequently funny. Just about any time I dance with female leaders, it's a quick matter of, 'okay, who's going to go high and who's going to go low?' lol

[Ampster]

After you get over the initial shock (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/search/label/boobs). I find myself honestly, and truly desensitized to the fact that you have a stranger's boobs pressing on you.

If, after a long period of time and you still have a problem with this, then you either dance in open embrace or take up something else that does not involve body contact.

The challenge becomes technical. It has to do with the different distances and different applied pressures involved and your ability to adapt to them. In order to make your tango consistent, extensive adjustment on the leader's part needs to happen in order to lead properly, regardless of bust size.

[Peaches]

After you get over the initial shock (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/search/label/boobs). I find myself honestly, and truly desensitized to the fact that you have a stranger's boobs pressing on you.

If, after a long period of time and you still have a problem with this, then you either dance in open embrace or take up something else that does not involve body contact.

The challenge becomes technical. It has to do with the different distances and different applied pressures involved and your ability to adapt to them. In order to make your tango consistent, extensive adjustment on the leader's part needs to happen in order to lead properly, regardless of bust size.Yeah, pretty much. Now, generally, whatever. Unless I'm dancing with a girl, then practical issues become...well, and issue.

ETA: Or if I'm getting the vibe from someone that they're getting some sort of sexual kick from the embrace. That really is creepy.

[Mario7]

...Or if I'm getting the vibe from someone that they're getting some sort of sexual kick from the embrace. That really is creepy.


well, of course no one would own up to being a 'creep' would they? especially in public:rolleyes:
..let me guess, do they groan, or perhaps breathe in some deeper way? ..or worse, they've managed to disguise or supress their 'excitement'..and simply smile?:nope:
..aren't we all glad that we're not one of those 'creeps'?:D:D

[bordertangoman]

Yeah, pretty much. Now, generally, whatever. Unless I'm dancing with a girl, then practical issues become...well, and issue.

ETA: Or if I'm getting the vibe from someone that they're getting some sort of sexual kick from the embrace. That really is creepy.

a someone who did a shiatsu massage training, most of this stuff never became an issue for me since I had dealt with it long before I started dancing tango. I would say though that one's body responds but its just a case of accepting it and recognising it as no more than that and having a personal responsibility and boundary.

I had a long conversation with a friend who I found attractive and she was aware of this but she didnt mind, but another man she knew who was also attracted to her she felt really disgusted by; so I think creepiness is more complicated than at first seems. She tried to explain to me that it was because that I was "more clear".

Hence if I feel comfortable dancing in close embrace it allows a beginner to get used to it without feeling that there is any sexual subtext but i would never expect a woman to dance close if she didnt feel comfortable.

[Dave Bailey]

This is a segue thread from here (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=36679). The conversation took it's twists and turns, and the conversation went to chest contact. Specifically about boobs.
And quite right too.

One of my dance partners is a very well-endowed lady. Yes, it does affect what you can and can't do, to a point.

With her, I find I need to be much more precise in my positioning - if I'm an inch either way to the wrong side, it has a real effect, whereas it's not so important with women who have less curves.

I also find I need to be a little bit more cautious in hand placement - for example, leading her to a back anti-clockwise pivot - to avoid accidental boob touchage.

In close embrace, I think women with larger boobs need to make effort to avoid contact only at the chest level - this may mean some adjustments to posture.

There we go, a totally-serious post :)

[tido]

When I took lessons in apilado (more leaning in than salon and milonguero) it was with a female teacher. And every time we danced, we had that moment or two of boob-alignment issues. She's taller than I am so it wasn't uncomfortable - we 'settled in' pretty quickly. But learning apilado boobs-to-boobs was occasionally challenging, and frequently funny. Just about any time I dance with female leaders, it's a quick matter of, 'okay, who's going to go high and who's going to go low?' lol

That's hilarious. lol. I've never even considered/realized such an issue exists. Yes, I've been turned on by boobies before, I'm human. But you do forget about them as you keep on dancing.

[Mario7]

..But you do forget about them as you keep on dancing.
Some people never forget! :cowboy::cheers:

[plugger]

I'd never thought about this problem occurring when two women dance together, but it does seem that would complicate things. In the apilado class I attend, I've never heard boobs mentioned as a problem for anyone. To me, the embrace feels more like contact with her body generally than with a particular part. If anything, I feel somewhat embarrased that my belt overhang is the point of contact for some partners.
There is, though, this seldom discussed issue -- how to make the frequent necessary adjustments between a straight-on apilado embrace to an embrace suitable for walking inside or outside partner, and vice versa. I don't recall the subject being broached, but I separate just a little from her and slide gently sideways, so that whatever contact occurs during that adjustment is just a light brushing. Nobody's ever complained, and if she's OK, I'm OK.

[Steve Pastor]

There is, though, this seldom discussed issue -- how to make the frequent necessary adjustments between a straight-on apilado embrace to an embrace suitable for walking inside or outside partner, and vice versa. I don't recall the subject being broached

The two torsos should remain "straight-on". To do this both partners have to turn their upper bodies toward their partner. Hips and pelvis remain perpendicular to the line of dance.
This is very doable, but apparently requires a good deal of training. Way too often it doesn't happen like it's supposed to.

[Mario7]

The two torsos should remain "straight-on". To do this both partners have to turn their upper bodies toward their partner. Hips and pelvis remain perpendicular to the line of dance.
This is very doable, but apparently requires a good deal of training
Hard to believe but here is Ricardo Vidort going to parallel walking outside left, in the first 30 secs. of this video, without sliding a milimeter.:cool:

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[Peaches]

I'd never thought about this problem occurring when two women dance together, but it does seem that would complicate things. In the apilado class I attend, I've never heard boobs mentioned as a problem for anyone. To me, the embrace feels more like contact with her body generally than with a particular part. Yeah, the same thing is true for us, too. I wouldn't say it's really a problem, but if you get two girls dancing and both are ample...well, it's just something else to consider. Usually, though, we've figured out how to deal with our boobs by now. :p Not surprising that you didn't hear it mentioned in a class--it's kind of a delicate subject, and it's rare to hear issues specific to same-gendered partners dancing brought up in a typical class.

There is, though, this seldom discussed issue -- how to make the frequent necessary adjustments between a straight-on apilado embrace to an embrace suitable for walking inside or outside partner, and vice versa. I don't recall the subject being broached, but I separate just a little from her and slide gently sideways, so that whatever contact occurs during that adjustment is just a light brushing. Nobody's ever complained, and if she's OK, I'm OK.For some extreme things I've used the sliding technique. I don't think of separation, however slight, as being necessary...but that's something the leader could be doing and I don't realize it. (Sub, where are you to chime in on this?!?! Oh...right...on vacation. Damn you! :) ) Usually, though, that sort of separation and sliding doesn't come up as being necessary in apilado, because the steps being done aren't extreme enough to require it. For simple walking outside partner, I've always just used dissociation between my legs and upper body to be able to do it.

[Mario7]

http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/18decorations.htm

Here's another look at Ricardo Vidort doing the most difficult disassociation about a third of the way thru this video (he facing camera with window directly behind). Now, shot from the other side and up close, he does a few steps outside parallel left. If one wasn't watching the feet, one would never guess that something 'difficult' was being danced. Again, no sliding here...there is, however, a slightly discernable twist and slight parting of the upper torso...do you agree? And would you call his embrace a 'straight-on' close embrace? ..or even 'Apilado'? thks

[Subliminal]

Yeah, the same thing is true for us, too. I wouldn't say it's really a problem, but if you get two girls dancing and both are ample...well, it's just something else to consider. Usually, though, we've figured out how to deal with our boobs by now. :p Not surprising that you didn't hear it mentioned in a class--it's kind of a delicate subject, and it's rare to hear issues specific to same-gendered partners dancing brought up in a typical class.

For some extreme things I've used the sliding technique. I don't think of separation, however slight, as being necessary...but that's something the leader could be doing and I don't realize it. (Sub, where are you to chime in on this?!?! Oh...right...on vacation. Damn you! :) ) Usually, though, that sort of separation and sliding doesn't come up as being necessary in apilado, because the steps being done aren't extreme enough to require it. For simple walking outside partner, I've always just used dissociation between my legs and upper body to be able to do it.

HI! I only got a minute so I gotta make this quick. :)

I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule. Generally, I try disassociation first, then slide or shift as needed. Monica Paz pointed out to me in a class once that apilado doesn't have to be full on front to front. Depending on the broadness of thed leader's chest (and/or belly :D ) the follower can be slightly sideways. Or if you are walking outside, or leading the follower in a circle walk around you, it is way more comfortable for her to sideways lean a little, so her hips can face away. As always, adjustments are made to the comfort of the partners, and what may work with one person won't work with another. I think when we've danced before Peaches, there has been a little sliding. But it's usually masked in the motion of another step.

One thing my teacher pointed out to me once... there are always small adjustments done to the amount of lean you are in. Even in close with no weight sharing, if the connection is good there are dynamic moments when one's balance is dependent on one's partner.

[Subliminal]

Lol. That was supposed to be short! Oops.

[plugger]

Thanks to all of you. I was taught to maintain the full-on embrace, as Steve Pastor describes it, in brief outside walks such as a salida followed by stepping back in front of partner, or a salida that goes directly into a cruzada. But if several outside steps are taken, and especially if the dancer's bodies aren't matched well to each other, one of us may have to bend at the waist to accommodate the other.
From the Vidort video, so far as I can tell in the small window, it appears that they maintain a total chest connection. That's something to aim for. I probably should have made clear that I don't usually disengage totally to make a small adjustment, only enough so that the fabrics brush each other lightly. So far, no electrical fires.

[Dave Bailey]

Basically, it's an embrace. Dance in the embrace that's comfortable and you won't go too far wrong.

If it's not comfortable, adjust it.

[JohnEm]

I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule. Generally, I try disassociation first, then slide or shift as needed. Monica Paz pointed out to me in a class once that apilado doesn't have to be full on front to front. Depending on the broadness of thed leader's chest (and/or belly :D ) the follower can be slightly sideways. Or if you are walking outside, or leading the follower in a circle walk around you, it is way more comfortable for her to sideways lean a little, so her hips can face away. As always, adjustments are made to the comfort of the partners, and what may work with one person won't work with another. I think when we've danced before Peaches, there has been a little sliding. But it's usually masked in the motion of another step.

Hmm, I've been thinking about this one so I'll start with what I know
from personal experience. Like Mario I too have watched Ricardo Vidort
videos, with some admiration I might say. And like plugger I was taught
to release the hold and slide gently to an offset position to walk outside.

But I don't like it, it's ugly and clunky. And I was taught a similar thing
earlier in ballroom for outside movement in the quickstep and foxtrot
ending up hip to hip. It again is ungainly and leading locksteps entails
a hip displacement (I could be stronger about it). Ballroom has contra
body position and tango has disassociation to solve it so I've come to
the conclusion that such offsetting (or sliding in tango) techniques are
teaching aids to get people used to the idea but ultimately you will see
all good dancers, amateur and professional, use a twisting of the upper
body to maintain connection.

It needs to be learned and requires suppleness of the spine. So some
carrying injuries or damage may never be able to and, yes, we have to
adjust for that or recognise that some movements may not be possible.

Walking outside on the closed side of the embrace is the most difficult
and, speaking as someone who has intentionally developed the technique,
it can take a partner by surprise and she can resist. Often it's not because
a partner cannot but no-one may have done it before. A really good lady
will just follow the chest and allow it to happen.


One thing my teacher pointed out to me once... there are always small adjustments done to the amount of lean you are in. Even in close with no weight sharing, if the connection is good there are dynamic moments when one's balance is dependent on one's partner.

Yes I agree with the adjustments but not so far as balance being dependent
on your partner. In writing it's difficult to judge what you mean and maybe
you are talking about an ever so slight dependency. If I'm ever aware of
my partner's balance being dependent on me, it's already gone wrong unless
I've initiated an off-axis movement which is then the intention of course.

[Captain Jep]

Re leader walking on the outside :

Having been a follower in this position - with closed eyes - it felt really uncomfortable. Disorientating. It's not something you'd want to follow for more than one or two steps IMO.

[Peaches]

Re leader walking on the outside :

Having been a follower in this position - with closed eyes - it felt really uncomfortable. Disorientating. It's not something you'd want to follow for more than one or two steps IMO.
Eh. I think I'd have to disagree. It doesn't feel particularly different to me. I mean, yeah, there's a difference between OP and straight-on walking...but definitely not a big deal. I kinda like it.

[Zoopsia59]

Eh. I think I'd have to disagree. It doesn't feel particularly different to me. I mean, yeah, there's a difference between OP and straight-on walking...but definitely not a big deal. I kinda like it.

My impression was that CJ was talking about walking outside partner by breaking the connection and being hip to hip. If that's what he meant, then I'd say I agree with him.

If its done without changing the embrace and by using disassociation, I agree with you. But I haven't found many leaders who use a rotated torso. Most just shift me off to their right to walk outside (the ones that do that also rarely walk outside on my left... at least that's a good thing!)

As someone who was taught from day 1 that it's my job to stay in front of the leader, not his job to keep me there, its very strange to be prevented from being in front of him and makes it harder to follow. Obviously there are moves where that is intentional for a specific step, but for walking, it's just uncomfortable (psychologically and in terms of "connecting")

[Peaches]

My impression was that CJ was talking about walking outside partner by breaking the connection and being hip to hip. If that's what he meant, then I'd say I agree with him.

If its done without changing the embrace and by using disassociation, I agree with you. But I haven't found many leaders who use a rotated torso. Most just shift me off to their right to walk outside (the ones that do that also rarely walk outside on my left... at least that's a good thing!)
Ohhhhh...I hadn't read his post like that. If that's the case, though, then...yeah. Agree. Sorry, CJ.:)

[Zoopsia59]

I was taught a similar thing
earlier in ballroom for outside movement in the quickstep and foxtrot
ending up hip to hip. Ballroom has contra
body position and tango has disassociation to solve it so I've come to
the conclusion that such offsetting (or sliding in tango) techniques are
teaching aids to get people used to the idea but ultimately you will see
all good dancers, amateur and professional, use a twisting of the upper
body to maintain connection.

In my experience, those leaders who are not taught any kind of contra-body or disassociation from the beginning rarely ever "get it" later, even if you do try to show it to them. Once they have made a habit of simply shifting their partner over to the side, they can't change to another method that's actually somewhat harder. I can count on one hand (and have fingers left over) the leaders I've known who were able to break that habit and learn to maintain the original embrace/ connection when walking OP.

So my conclusion is that unless there is a physical impediment to rotating the upper body independently from the lower, it should be taught this way from the beginning. It doesn't take a LOT of disassociation to walk on the follower's right (more on the follower's left)

It also helps if followers learn how to walk backwards while disassociated so that they still travel where they're supposed to instead of diagonally. Followers are often used to having their legs move perpendicular to their shoulders when walking backwards, and if disassociated, they won't be.

I really don't see that many people who have a serious inability to position their body that way. If you look at some of the old milongueros in BA, they are hardly gymnasts. Many (most?) have pot bellies and hardly any defined waist. Yet they manage to maintain a flat-on non changing embrace and still walk OP. I know someone who has a form of arthritis that has fused most of his spine into a single bone. He wouldn't be able to do it. Other than that, I don't think any of the leaders I know CAN'T do it... they just don't. No one corrected it for them early enough for them to avoid making a habit of doing it another way.

[Captain Jep]

My impression was that CJ was talking about walking outside partner by breaking the connection and being hip to hip. If that's what he meant, then I'd say I agree with him.

If its done without changing the embrace and by using disassociation, I agree with you. But I haven't found many leaders who use a rotated torso. Most just shift me off to their right to walk outside (the ones that do that also rarely walk outside on my left... at least that's a good thing!)

As someone who was taught from day 1 that it's my job to stay in front of the leader, not his job to keep me there, its very strange to be prevented from being in front of him and makes it harder to follow. Obviously there are moves where that is intentional for a specific step, but for walking, it's just uncomfortable (psychologically and in terms of "connecting")

Yes that's how I felt. Prevented from being in front. The dissociation needs to be quite pronounced to keep connection - otherwise it feels that you're starting to slide off his chest/go side to side.

Does speed matter? The slower the outside walk the better?

Leaders are often taught a sort of "corner step" where you go outside your partner to your right/their left. You then curve round the corner and lead a cross to straighten out.

Otherwise I've done exercises where leaders practice changing from inside to outside. I've never quite understood them. Yes OK it's worth feeling the dissociation. But from a follower perspective I have found it quite disorientating. Again, probably because I want to stay in front :-?

[JohnEm]

In my experience, those leaders who are not taught any kind of contra-body or disassociation from the beginning rarely ever "get it" later, even if you do try to show it to them. Once they have made a habit of simply shifting their partner over to the side, they can't change to another method that's actually somewhat harder. I can count on one hand (and have fingers left over) the leaders I've known who were able to break that habit and learn to maintain the original embrace/ connection when walking OP.

So my conclusion is that unless there is a physical impediment to rotating the upper body independently from the lower, it should be taught this way from the beginning. It doesn't take a LOT of disassociation to walk on the follower's right (more on the follower's left)

As someone who was never taught to disassociate for outside position
and hated the resultant awkward dance I am also one the few (according
to your experience) who taught himself first in ballroom and then
mysteriously had to do the same again in Tango. I say mysteriously as
to me disassociation is one of the fundamentals of Tango.

So I totally agree Zoopsia, it should be taught from the start even if
it makes life a little more difficult early on.


It also helps if followers learn how to walk backwards while disassociated so that they still travel where they're supposed to instead of diagonally. Followers are often used to having their legs move perpendicular to their shoulders when walking backwards, and if disassociated, they won't be.

Yes followers should be taught that too as one of the impediments to
walking outside and retaining the chest connection is followers' reticence
to disassociate. I wasn't aware though that not many leaders actually
disassociate so followers resultantly get very little practice.


I really don't see that many people who have a serious inability to position their body that way. If you look at some of the old milongueros in BA, they are hardly gymnasts. Many (most?) have pot bellies and hardly any defined waist. Yet they manage to maintain a flat-on non changing embrace and still walk OP. I know someone who has a form of arthritis that has fused most of his spine into a single bone. He wouldn't be able to do it. Other than that, I don't think any of the leaders I know CAN'T do it... they just don't. No one corrected it for them early enough for them to avoid making a habit of doing it another way.

Fair comment. Though it does require a degree of muscle control and
body awareness for it to become effortlessly natural.

Looking at milonguero video they don't seem to be all equally supple.
Ricardo Vidort was apparently unusual in that he walked outside the
closed side in parallel and not just in cross basic. It is quite possible
to learn to do that gradually by starting in cross basic, increasing
the disassociation and changing from the three track walk (as per Oscar
Casas) to a two track milonguero walk.

And to bring this back on topic. Everyone should learn to do it well
as it also solves the rubbing across the boobs problem or the necessity
to relax the hold to avoid dragging the lady's clothes around her body.

[Zoopsia59]

I wasn't aware though that not many leaders actually
disassociate so followers resultantly get very little practice.

I can only speak for my locality.

Though it does require a degree of muscle control and
body awareness for it to become effortlessly natural.


Or one could make the argument that one only has to stop fighting the natural inclination to walk with disassociation of the hips and shoulders. Contra-body is how we normally walk. But for some reason, when people get to tango class, they are trying to DANCE and think that dancing is going to be the opposite of "natural" in every aspect, including walking. (I remember Tete scolding a whole calss to "just WALK!")

The place where it gets unatural is when you step outside your partner's right with your right foot, rotating your shoulders towards your partner (normal contrabody)... so far so good... then the next step gets taken without changing the shoulders which is NOT normal contra-body movement.. that's the step where a lot of people who are trying to get the disassociation get hung up.. they try to swing the shoulders back and that pulls the follower sideways.

uh... topic... boobs... yes I have them. They don't get in my way. Given their size, I doubt they get in anyone else's way either.

[JohnEm]

Or one could make the argument that one only has to stop fighting the natural inclination to walk with disassociation of the hips and shoulders. Contra-body is how we normally walk. But for some reason, when people get to tango class, they are trying to DANCE and think that dancing is going to be the opposite of "natural" in every aspect, including walking. (I remember Tete scolding a whole calss to "just WALK!")
My retort always to that comment is there's nothing natural
about walking down a room with a lady planted on your chest
while walking backwards in front of you.

But I understand too that what Tete was trying to achieve would be
to get everyone to move. So many people forget that it is a dance
of movement and Tete sure could fly around a dance floor. Sometimes
it looked as if Sylvia was a fly on a fast moving big cat but in fact when I see
a video of them it's her who was the genius in her ability to keep up with him
sometimes in no hold at all.


The place where it gets unatural is when you step outside your partner's right with your right foot, rotating your shoulders towards your partner (normal contrabody)... so far so good... then the next step gets taken without changing the shoulders which is NOT normal contra-body movement.. that's the step where a lot of people who are trying to get the disassociation get hung up.. they try to swing the shoulders back and that pulls the follower sideways.
I want to avoid an argument over semantics here.
Disassociation in Tango terms surely means that ability
to maintain the chest connection independent of the hip position.

The opposite movement of the shoulders in a normal walk is due to the
counterbalancing swing of the arms. None of that is relevant to tango
though I know of a tango teacher who teaches a stylised walk with
contra movement of the shoulders. Too affected for me I'm afraid.

Ballroom attempts to solve the descriptive problem by having two terms:
contra body position and contra body movement abbreviated to CBP and
CBM. Oh dear, now which is which? Is it CBM, oh no it's CBP this time.
Now I'm utterly confused!

[JohnEm]

uh... topic... boobs... yes I have them. They don't get in my way. Given their size, I doubt they get in anyone else's way either.

You edited it!

Now you're being modest.

[Zoopsia59]

You edited it!

Now you're being modest.

Assuming modesty on my part implies that I think bigger is better.
Not at all true!

As a similarly endowed friend says: "Who needs an extra liability in a fight?" :p

Or for that matter, an extra issue to deal with in Tango?

[Zoopsia59]

My retort always to that comment is there's nothing natural
about walking down a room with a lady planted on your chest
while walking backwards in front of you.

Well, I didn't mean that all of tango is natural or easy.. but walking is the most natural part of the dance. Actually, if the leader walks as though the lady isn't there, things usually go better. It's when he worries about stepping on her, or tries to avoid her that things get awkward.

But I understand too that what Tete was trying to achieve would be
to get everyone to move.

Actually, I think he was trying to get everyone to relax. Just WALK, not try to do some personal interpretation of a "dancing walk" that they thought would make it "correct". Loosen up and just walk.

Remember he was trying to deal with specific people who were having a specific problem in a specific workshop... it doesn't mean that his entire philosophy of tango is that its just natural walking like going down the street (that's the problem of quoting people out of context)

when I see
a video of them it's her who was the genius in her ability to keep up with him
sometimes in no hold at all.

Tete was my teacher/partner's hero, so he taught me to follow like Sylvia... ie: keep up with him even with no hold at all. It was very hard for a beginner, but GREAT training.


I want to avoid an argument over semantics here.

I agree.. I was just trying to point out that moving the hips and shoulders as a unit (ie: both forward at once) is fairly UN-natural. People sometimes try to do that as beginners though because they are stiff and thinking about "dancing" as though the definition of dancing is: "Moving in whatever way is most difficult, uncomfortable and unnatural." They are thinking so much about their feet and about how they are trying to "dance" that they forget how they normally move and start stiffening up. Then you try to get them to just rotate their shoulders a wee little bit as they step OP, and they look at you like you've asked for them to leap like superman over a tall building.

Basically, I think a lot of all this stems from simply being afraid they will step on their partner.

Either that or they want to get away from those boobs... (still trying to get myself on topic... sorry, sorry...:-?)

[JohnEm]

Well, I didn't mean that all of tango is natural or easy.. but walking is the most natural part of the dance. Actually, if the leader walks as though the lady isn't there, things usually go better. It's when he worries about stepping on her, or tries to avoid her that things get awkward.
Absolutely, all down to an ability to give intent and commit.



Actually, I think he was trying to get everyone to relax. Just WALK, not try to do some personal interpretation of a "dancing walk" that they thought would make it "correct". Loosen up and just walk.

Remember he was trying to deal with specific people who were having a specific problem in a specific workshop... it doesn't mean that his entire philosophy of tango is that its just natural walking like going down the street (that's the problem of quoting people out of context)
Point taken.



Tete was my teacher/partner's hero, so he taught me to follow like Sylvia... ie: keep up with him even with no hold at all. It was very hard for a beginner, but GREAT training.
Yes it is, and for a beginner man to provide that chest lead.
Another area where beginners learning with beginners is so difficult.

You had a great advantage there and, as you say, great training.
And I'd love to dance with you, shame about the miles
and the puddle between us.


I agree.. I was just trying to point out that moving the hips and shoulders as a unit (ie: both forward at once) is fairly UN-natural. People sometimes try to do that as beginners though because they are stiff and thinking about "dancing" as though the definition of dancing is: "Moving in whatever way is most difficult, uncomfortable and unnatural." They are thinking so much about their feet and about how they are trying to "dance" that they forget how they normally move and start stiffening up. Then you try to get them to just rotate their shoulders a wee little bit as they step OP, and they look at you like you've asked for them to leap like superman over a tall building.

We seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

But the confidence to relax yet provide the intent is quite contradictory
initially. Even though I came from other dance experience it was all
still very alien and awkward. And then of course the music is alien too.
Music, what music, is there music playing? Is that actually music?
I've got far too much going on in my head to actually dance and listen.

Blimey (as we say in some parts of the UK), and there's a pair of boobs
on my chest. I know it's normal for you but it certainly isn't for me.
It's all far too much to cope with.

See, back on topic now again.