what is pro-am dancing ?

[jerseydancer]

I am am/am dancer, and we were considering trying pro/am dancing. My understanding about pro/am was that it is an opportunity to try dancing on a higher level, and a good chance to improve personal dancing skills.

In my research, I am starting to discover lets' say some surprising information about pro/am dancing, and the whole business of pro/am dancing starting to feel like just a very expensive "Walmart" like dance factory:

1. Most likely I will have the same routine as all the students that my pro is dancing with

2. I would have to pay a set amount of fee, no matter, if I dance 5 or 15 events (there is seems to be a minimum amount, so even if the competition does not offer 15 dances in my category, i still would have top pay my pro for a set amount of dances)

3. In addition i would have to pay the studio for every dance that I am dancing with the pro

4. I may not be able to dance in all the comps that I would want to, because my pro may have multiple students at the same level

5. I will not be able to practice with my pro as much as I practice with my am partner, because my pro may have many conflicts in his schedule, and that would be also extremely expensive

So, what are pro/am dancing benefits? Do we really have any benefits doing that instead or in addition to am/am dancing? Are we going to just spend tremendous amount of money for a chance to show up in few comps with the pro, and may be we better spend the same amount of money on more lessons as a couple? Does the pro/am dancing just for follow/leads that cannot find (specifically it is probably hard to find dancing men in this country) or do not want to deal with am dance partner?

[jerseydancer]

I also thought that one of benefits of pro/am competing would be no drama, but it does not look like that based on many posts in this forum

[danceronice]

Oh, this is gonna be a train wreck REALLY fast.

Personally, I'd only stop doing pro-am if I were good enough to turn pro (and as I'm far too old to be competitive that would be only if I decided to teach.) I am never going to deal with someone else's learning curve.

To the numbered points:

1. Probably to some degree. If your pro is from a studio where he has a lot of students, it's a lot easier on him if he's got five bronze Rhythm ladies ata competition to only remember ONE routine (and know it well enough that he can adapt it on the fly, recall it with minimal prompting, etc.) Sometimes, pros tweak routines for students (even down to bronze--I do one figure differently in cha cha, for example, as we tried something for a showcase, he liked it, he left it in). It depends on how they do business.

2. That's entirely up to the studio and their billing process. My Boston studio, we pay X amount per dance plus a small processing fee. That's it. Indiana studio, as has been explained so far, I pay a single day fee (and if I"m only dancing Friday, that's the only day I pay for even if it's Ohio and a week long), cover my own entry fees, and pay them a small fee per dance. There are some places where you cover entry fees, your pro's hotel and transportation or meals or something, or there's a big package that covers the whole weekend--it really depends on their business model and what works for them.

3. See above. Also, if you decide to do that, I'd be careful about saying things like "using my pro for [this dance.]" He's not a rental car or a taxi dancer, at least not the ones worth taking from.

4. Also true. I've rarely had a problem with single heats (okay, my Rhythm pro at least didn't have a lot of ladies in A Bronze--sometimes being the youngest and the lowest level pays off.) Most pro/am comps have a LOT of them at a wide variety of levels (newcomer, pre-bronze, int bronze, full bronze, etc) because a lot of pros have multiple students and it behooves a competition to accommodate as many as possible. When it comes to combined-age events so far, my experience has been if there's a conflict my pros have done first-come first-served. I think it's only been an issue maybe once and in that case, the other student asked first. So I did a few more single heats.

5. That's true. Remember, it's not practice, usually. It's a lesson. Even the students with championship titles are still students.

Pro/am is not about YOU dancing on a higher level necessarily, unless you're one of the unbalanced am/am partnerships we have threads about where someone is 'bringing up' a partner. It's more about first, making a LOT easier to dance and compete, especially if you're a follow, because suitable partners don't just grow on trees. Second, it's a chance to compete with someone who is a LOT better than you. Let's face it, I'm not going to find an am partner who could finish in the top twenty at Blackpool, never mind finals. And it's about taking lots of lessons (unless you ARE just hiring a taxi dancer, but you really can't get away with that and win these days.)

And it also does mean you get to ditch the lame costume rules for sylabus USADance has. Seriously, if I have to take the tiny rhinestone buckle off to do pre-bronze and a scarf is against the rules, forget it.

[jerseydancer]

Thank you danceronice. My apologies for improper use of word "using". I meant no disrespect.

[kckc]

I am am/am dancer, and we were considering trying pro/am dancing. My understanding about pro/am was that it is an opportunity to try dancing on a higher level, and a good chance to improve personal dancing skills.

In my research, I am starting to discover lets' say some surprising information about pro/am dancing, and the whole business of pro/am dancing starting to feel like just a very expensive "Walmart" like dance factory:

1. Most likely I will have the same routine as all the students that my pro is dancing with
2. I would have to pay a set amount of fee, no matter, if I dance 5 or 15 events (there is seems to be a minimum amount, so even if the competition does not offer 15 dances in my category, i still would have top pay my pro for a set amount of dances)
3. In addition i would have to pay the studio for every dance that I am using my pro for

4. I may not be able to dance in all the comps that I would want to, because my pro may have multiple students at the same level

5. I will not be able to practice with my pro as much as I practice with my am partner, because my pro may have many conflicts in his schedule, and that would be also extremely expensive

So, what are pro/am dancing benefits? Do we really have any benefits doing that instead or in addition to am/am dancing? Are we going to just spend tremendous amount of money for a chance to show up in few comps with the pro, and may be we better spend the same amount of money on more lessons as a couple? Does the pro/am dancing just for follow/leads that cannot find (specifically it is probably hard to find dancing men in this country) or do not want to deal with am dance partner?

(In my experience)

1. Yes, all the dancers at the same level have the same dance, with minor variations thrown in depending on personal strengths or weaknesses.
2. I think it varies among pros. My pro charges a fee per dance and then splits his other fees among all of his dancers (he usually has 10-15 at a comp).
3. Don't know what that means. I don't belong to a chain, is that where that may happen?
4. Yes, this may happen, however, my pro will arrange the dancers up or down within a level if necessary to try to accomodate everyone. Though if someone is dancing 30 heats, that may eat up a lot of room to maneuver everyone else.
5. Yep, expensive as h*%%. I've made a lot of sacrifices to do it and I only do one, maybe 2 comps/year, plus a few showcase events. Some pros do go social dancing once in a while, where you might be able to squeeze in a few dances.

Why do I do it? I love the challenge of a top-level dancer, and he is a sweetie, not to mention the perfect size for me, and the lack of available partners certainly does factor in.

[danceronice]

Oh, I forgot another thing inspired by the threads about partners lately: I will happily take correction from my pros. I won't take it from someone of my own skill level and I'll resent hearing it. Pro-am, there's no fuzziness, he's the boss, I'm the student, I'm paying for his expert opinion.

And to the poll question--I'd only take an am partnership where my partner was better than me. That makes no sense for an am so I might as well do pro-am and get what I want out of it.

[3wishes]

I am am/am dancer, and we were considering trying pro/am dancing. You've mentioned "we were considering" as in your current am partner is considering pro/am as well? Much like the posters above - I take private lessons from my "pro" who is correct technique driven so his student is not executing the dance with wrong information. I agree with several in that - I would not take lessons from another amateur (although I've danced am/am) who was at my level or below - I would resent it and I have resented it in the past. I pay my pro for his/her knowledge and teaching. Now, as for competition - there is drama anywhere you want to find it. Some pros - charge a simply flat fee, others who are known as "independents" and not associated with a studio do not charge a studio fee, others do not charge a "mark up" on a package that the organizer sells the studio or you, still other pros will charge per dance, per recall in scholarship and other odds and ends.. There's a difference if your wanting to dance as a pro/am for coaching/lessons/individual attention or attention as a couple - vs competing pro/am. I'm sure - your going to receive a wide variety of response to your post.

[GGinrhinestones]

I am am/am dancer, and we were considering trying pro/am dancing. My understanding about pro/am was that it is an opportunity to try dancing on a higher level, and a good chance to improve personal dancing skills.

In my research, I am starting to discover lets' say some surprising information about pro/am dancing, and the whole business of pro/am dancing starting to feel like just a very expensive "Walmart" like dance factory:

1. Most likely I will have the same routine as all the students that my pro is dancing with

2. I would have to pay a set amount of fee, no matter, if I dance 5 or 15 events (there is seems to be a minimum amount, so even if the competition does not offer 15 dances in my category, i still would have top pay my pro for a set amount of dances)

3. In addition i would have to pay the studio for every dance that I am dancing with the pro

4. I may not be able to dance in all the comps that I would want to, because my pro may have multiple students at the same level

5. I will not be able to practice with my pro as much as I practice with my am partner, because my pro may have many conflicts in his schedule, and that would be also extremely expensive

So, what are pro/am dancing benefits? Do we really have any benefits doing that instead or in addition to am/am dancing? Are we going to just spend tremendous amount of money for a chance to show up in few comps with the pro, and may be we better spend the same amount of money on more lessons as a couple? Does the pro/am dancing just for follow/leads that cannot find (specifically it is probably hard to find dancing men in this country) or do not want to deal with am dance partner?

I have been dancing pro/am since I started dancing. I'm far enough along now, and have been to enough comps, to know I wouldn't have it any other way. Sure, it has its pitfalls (money being the biggest), but there is NO WAY I would be where I am now if I had done it any other way.

1. Yes, I dance the same routines with my pro as all of his other students, with some minor variations depending on skill level and/or physical limitations.

2. This is probably highly dependent on the instructor and the studio. I pay my pro (an independent instructor) for each dance, and his other fees get split among all of the students at the comp.

3. The studio does not get a cut. This is probably specific to the studio - I would guess it is specific to chain studios. In my particular situation, I would really question paying a fee to the studio.

4. What comps, levels, or dances you dance in is, as my pro tells me, his job to manage based on his student load, the number of students attending, the specifics of the comp, the skill levels of his students, etc. Yes, it is possible. It's not likely to be that much of an issue.

5. As others have stated, "practicing" with your pro isn't practice. It is lessons. Practice is on your own - but you don't need a partner to practice.

I would encourage you to look up a recent thread on pro/am dancing - someone (can't remember who off the top of my head) made a very good statement that pro/am has really become it's own thing. It is not am/am dancing. Neither is it competition dancing for people who can't find partners. I know plenty of people who compete in both, because the benefits, and the competition, are different in each. Yes, it is incredibly expensive, but worth every penny.

[jerseydancer]

And it also does mean you get to ditch the lame costume rules for sylabus USADance has. Seriously, if I have to take the tiny rhinestone buckle off to do pre-bronze and a scarf is against the rules, forget it. this is not a problem for us, we are in senior category, so the costume rules do not apply

[jerseydancer]

Oh, I forgot another thing inspired by the threads about partners lately: I will happily take correction from my pros. I won't take it from someone of my own skill level and I'll resent hearing it. Pro-am, there's no fuzziness, he's the boss, I'm the student, I'm paying for his expert opinion.

And to the poll question--I'd only take an am partnership where my partner was better than me. That makes no sense for an am so I might as well do pro-am and get what I want out of it. this is the benefit for sure:)

[jerseydancer]

I am am/am dancer, and we were considering trying pro/am dancing. You've mentioned "we were considering" as in your current am partner is considering pro/am as well? Much like the posters above - I take private lessons from my "pro" who is correct technique driven so his student is not executing the dance with wrong information. I agree with several in that - I would not take lessons from another amateur (although I've danced am/am) who was at my level or below - I would resent it and I have resented it in the past. I pay my pro for his/her knowledge and teaching. Now, as for competition - there is drama anywhere you want to find it. Some pros - charge a simply flat fee, others who are known as "independents" and not associated with a studio do not charge a studio fee, others do not charge a "mark up" on a package that the organizer sells the studio or you, still other pros will charge per dance, per recall in scholarship and other odds and ends.. There's a difference if your wanting to dance as a pro/am for coaching/lessons/individual attention or attention as a couple - vs competing pro/am. I'm sure - your going to receive a wide variety of response to your post. yes. my dance partner would like to try it as well. we take personal lessons with our coaches, as well as lessons as a couple. would actually competing with them add more benefits to improve our current level. my partner and I dance at the same level. none needs to catch the other...

[ChaChaMama]

I am am/am dancer, and we were considering trying pro/am dancing. My understanding about pro/am was that it is an opportunity to try dancing on a higher level, and a good chance to improve personal dancing skills.

In my research, I am starting to discover lets' say some surprising information about pro/am dancing, and the whole business of pro/am dancing starting to feel like just a very expensive "Walmart" like dance factory:

1. Most likely I will have the same routine as all the students that my pro is dancing with

2. I would have to pay a set amount of fee, no matter, if I dance 5 or 15 events (there is seems to be a minimum amount, so even if the competition does not offer 15 dances in my category, i still would have top pay my pro for a set amount of dances)

3. In addition i would have to pay the studio for every dance that I am dancing with the pro

4. I may not be able to dance in all the comps that I would want to, because my pro may have multiple students at the same level

5. I will not be able to practice with my pro as much as I practice with my am partner, because my pro may have many conflicts in his schedule, and that would be also extremely expensive

So, what are pro/am dancing benefits? Do we really have any benefits doing that instead or in addition to am/am dancing? Are we going to just spend tremendous amount of money for a chance to show up in few comps with the pro, and may be we better spend the same amount of money on more lessons as a couple? Does the pro/am dancing just for follow/leads that cannot find (specifically it is probably hard to find dancing men in this country) or do not want to deal with am dance partner?


I do both, and really, really like doing both.
-Doing pro-am, I get to dance with an OSB semi-finalist, someone whose dance career I have followed since he was an amateur. I think he has the talent and charisma to go very far, and it is a thrill to be able to learn from and dance with him.
Speaking just for myself, I would not dance pro-am with just anybody. The right opportunity came along and I decided to try it.

-Doing am, I get to dance with my spouse, and I get to participate in USA Dance comps. It is more affordable, the comps tend to run on time (ahem!), the ballroom tends to be more energized. Additionally, $1000-2000 goes REALLY far at USA Dance comps, like front row, VIP seats; sometimes you can even sponsor a youth scholarship without breaking the budget.

To the questions above:

1. My routines are not 100% identical to my pro's other students at a similar level, but they are similar. There is some customization. Also, if we are debuting a routine we have only barely started working on, we are not above taking out a bit that is still rocky, with the thought of restoring it later. It's not that we give up on me ever learning how to do X, but we recognize that I am not doing X at a competent level yet.

2. The grammar of this sentence confuses me a bit, but I think the question is "Do you have to pay the same amount no matter how many dances you actually dance?" If that is the question, the answer is NO, not with MOST PROS. A minority do a flat rate. Most will use one of the following pricing policies:

-A per dance fee.

-A per dance fee + a share of travel expenses.

-A per dance fee + a share of travel expenses + a pro fee (which will be flat).

-A per dance fee + a share of travel expenses + a pro fee + a package (which may or may not be marked up from what the comp is charging).

Without going into specifics, YES, it is cheaper for me personally if I dance, say, 5 single dances and a scholarship than if I dance 15 single dances and a scholarship.

TWO ADDITIONAL NOTES:
A. A per dance fee alone is not necessarily cheaper than a per dance fee plus a share of travel expenses. It really depends what that per dance fee is!

B. I would try to avoid (or negotiate with) places that require you to take the package. At many comps, the package is not such a stellar deal, and sometimes it locks you in to meal times that are incompatible with your dance schedule.

3. Some places you may have to pay the studio, but this is not universal.

4. True, you may not be able to dance all the comps you want to--or at least not ALL the events at EXACTLY the age group and level you would prefer at EVERY comp you would want to.

This is actually NOT a huge problem. There are probably NDCA comps 48 weekends a year. Unless you are very rich, you will probably be able to afford to a seriously single-digit number of these. The comps TRY to maximize the number of students who can participate by having a boatload of levels, like pre-silver, intermediate silver, full silver, open silver. Sometimes there are even more breakdowns than that.

Now, it is true, sometimes a student will want to be piggy and snap up ALL the levels of, say, bronze and silver for a popular age group. But ideally, you can NEGOTIATE and SHARE. Another alternative is to dance a younger age category, which is legal by most comps' rules.

Probably the hardest element of all this is scholarships, because there are fewer categories there. But even with these NEGOTIATION and SHARING can make everyone happy. Ideally, you will befriend your teacher's other students and say "I will happily give you first dibs on events at Highly Desirable Comp 1 if I can have Highly Desirable Comp 2."

First come, first served is another possibility, as someone pointed out upthread, and different pros no doubt have their own policies.

5. True, I cannot practice with my teacher as much as I can practice with my spouse. I mean, I probably could if I were the next J. K. Rowling, but failing that, no. But I do indeed practice on my own.

Hope this helps.

[fascination]

answer for me = all of thee above...there is not an eager pool of am males who want to dance with a 45 year old woman...so, I pay a reasonable fee to dance with an awesome man who has no mercy...he knows what i want and he makes sure that i have every chance to get there....I am very very happy to have that...would I love to have the amatuer partner of my dreams?...sure...but reb is across the country and I'd never measure up :)

[reb]

:bouncy:

[fascination]

:)....

[Warren J. Dew]

we take personal lessons with our coaches, as well as lessons as a couple. would actually competing with them add more benefits to improve our current level. my partner and I dance at the same level. none needs to catch the other...

If I understand you, you are already competing with a well matched amateur partner, and you both take pro-am lessons with your coaches. In that case, pro-am competition is unlikely to help your dancing. You've already got amateur competitions for feedback, and you do your learning in lessons.

[tanya_the_dancer]

1. Most likely I will have the same routine as all the students that my pro is dancing with

Sort of, although it varies depending on traffic or whatever feels right that day. I have very vague idea of what my routines are (I primarily do smooth and standard).


2. I would have to pay a set amount of fee, no matter, if I dance 5 or 15 events (there is seems to be a minimum amount, so even if the competition does not offer 15 dances in my category, i still would have top pay my pro for a set amount of dances)

Depends. I pay flat fee per day and the expenses. The latter is split with his other students, so it's better for me when there is more of us to share.

3. In addition i would have to pay the studio for every dance that I am dancing with the pro

With independent, you probably don't.

4. I may not be able to dance in all the comps that I would want to, because my pro may have multiple students at the same level

Again, depends on how many he has. In my case, he has one other lady doing my level, but she is older, so there is no conflict. The only problem could be if there were no age categories for scholarships, but in this case we'd have to figure out who does what. Since we all have known each other for several years, I'm sure we'd be able to sort it out.

5. I will not be able to practice with my pro as much as I practice with my am partner, because my pro may have many conflicts in his schedule, and that would be also extremely expensive

That's why we learn how and what to practice alone.


So, what are pro/am dancing benefits? Does the pro/am dancing just for follow/leads that cannot find (specifically it is probably hard to find dancing men in this country) or do not want to deal with am dance partner?

The benefit is that I get to work on my own dancing, and improve unaffected by someone else's learning curve. When I first started dancing (with my husband, just for social side of it), I did not make a whole lot of progress until I started to take lessons on my own with competitive goals in mind.

I recently considered asking someone (guy who does pro-am with his teacher) to practice together, but I think I'll scrap the idea because it has too many negatives and not enough positives.

[DL]

Oh, I forgot another thing inspired by the threads about partners lately: I will happily take correction from my pros. I won't take it from someone of my own skill level and I'll resent hearing it. Pro-am, there's no fuzziness, he's the boss, I'm the student, I'm paying for his expert opinion.

And to the poll question--I'd only take an am partnership where my partner was better than me. That makes no sense for an am so I might as well do pro-am and get what I want out of it.

Maybe I should just keep out of this thread but...

I was about to say that in my am partnership we don't correct each other, but actually it's not true. Example: We dance mostly standard. She and I each sometimes have a bad habit of dropping a shoulder towards a hip when we should be keeping our torsos stretched. We both know that's a big no-no. If either of us notices it in either of us, we point it out. It's not teaching, nor even criticism -- it's just observation. I will be honest: at times it bugs me, and bugs me all the more when I know she's right. IMV, every one of those times is a real opportunity for personal growth. Moreover, I feel a real obligation to hold up my end of the partnership, there.

As for skill level, I think too much is made of this on the am side. Were I not partnered, level would not be in my top three considerations for choosing a partner.

As for lessons, I take some on my own, and we take some as a couple. I think my dancing benefits both ways.

[jerseydancer]

If I understand you, you are already competing with a well matched amateur partner, and you both take pro-am lessons with your coaches. In that case, pro-am competition is unlikely to help your dancing. You've already got amateur competitions for feedback, and you do your learning in lessons. looks like you have summarized it well. Could actually competing too much with a pro hurt am leader or am follower? when we dance with our teachers during the lesson everything comes so easy, so if we both compete with a pro, could we loose the balance in am/am partnership?

BTW, practicing standard alone does not sound that much fun. and how useful could that be?

[Josh]

BTW, practicing standard alone does not sound that much fun. and how useful could that be?

Can't speak to the fun, but to the usefulness--very useful, if it is done with a specific focus. Not that it will replace or be as helpful as dancing with someone, but it's a great opportunity to focus on self, which is where the problem usually lies, and not worry about the person dancing in front of you.

[Chris Stratton]

looks like you have summarized it well. Could actually competing too much with a pro hurt am leader or am follower? when we dance with our teachers during the lesson everything comes so easy, so if we both compete with a pro, could we loose the balance in am/am partnership?

Yes, there is a very real risk. When a teacher substitutes into the partnership, the point remains to. assist something being developed in the partnership.

But when competing with the teacher becomes a goal, you are likely to each embark on private projects with your teachers that your partner won't (and quite often shouldn't) be in a position to support when you dance together. Some of that will simply be to take advantage of the pro's capability, but some will also be that pro-am can (not always, but easily) become a bit over-the-top with certain aspects of dancing ending up out of natural proportion to others.

[jerseydancer]

Can't speak to the fun, but to the usefulness--very useful, if it is done with a specific focus. Not that it will replace or be as helpful as dancing with someone, but it's a great opportunity to focus on self, which is where the problem usually lies, and not worry about the person dancing in front of you. when i dance alone everything is perfect, the problems start when the partner is on the way:)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I also thought that one of benefits of pro/am competing would be no drama, but it does not look like that based on many posts in this forum
I think there's going to be a bit of bias. People tend to post more about the dramatic stuff as they seek advice/help, whether in pro/am or am/am. It's a bit more rare for people to have time to sit down and share about the positive experiences - like: Best stories of pros at comps (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=20116). :)

[latingal]

Alot of your questions have been answered in other posts, thought I might add one other idea. Pro-am is also good if your am/am partnership is unequal and (if you are the more highly skilled) you wish to push your learning and competing to a higher level. Some of us are not spring chickens and we wish to push ourselves as far as we can with the time we have.

[Lioness]

Best stories of pros at comps (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=20116). :)

Haha! Awesome thread

[laylamah]

5. As others have stated, "practicing" with your pro isn't practice. It is lessons. Practice is on your own - but you don't need a partner to practice.

This isn't always true for me. Sometimes I pay my coach to do precisely that - coach instead of teach. If he's already shown me how to do something, but I'm not quite executing it correctly, I'll ask him to watch me dance it alone several times, and pick on it from a distance. He'll tell me what to change, and I'll try it again. At least until it's at the point where I'm doing it well enough to not be learning a bad habit by practicing it alone the way I'm doing it. There's nothing worse than learning and having to unlearn bad habits!

[laylamah]

but some will also be that pro-am can (not always, but easily) become a bit over-the-top with certain aspects of dancing ending up out of natural proportion to others.

Can you give examples?

[Chris Stratton]

Can you give examples?

The classic ones are over shaping and over reaching of the moving leg.

Both are attempts to make the dancing appear more than the actual skills can support. With a very physically strong and grounded partner they can be sort of tolerable, and maybe even useful in a field where most others are doing the same. But they are extremely disabling when dancing with a partner of comparable skill. The overshaping puts the direction of the lady's balance too far back, pulling her partner forward off of the secure stance he needs to lead. And the over reaching of the leg tends to mean the feet often land in places that the body weight will not be able to pass over. Comparable issues of lack of guiding concern for the practicality of one's habits for another can be seen in a number of the male students as well, such as incomplete and unsuitable leads and action sizes.

The primary reason these are somewhat identified with pro/am is not that they can't start to develop in am/am, but that am/am partnerships can rarely survive them. Or at least rarely survive them with enough remaining capacity to substantially advance the overt effect of the dancing, so they don't become habits reinforced by an apparent success.

[danceronice]

This isn't always true for me. Sometimes I pay my coach to do precisely that - coach instead of teach. If he's already shown me how to do something, but I'm not quite executing it correctly, I'll ask him to watch me dance it alone several times, and pick on it from a distance. He'll tell me what to change, and I'll try it again. At least until it's at the point where I'm doing it well enough to not be learning a bad habit by practicing it alone the way I'm doing it. There's nothing worse than learning and having to unlearn bad habits!

That's still a lesson and he's still teaching, and you're still paying. The point is more you can't just go dance with the pro whenever without paying for it (which people used to am/am might resent, but it is, after all, his JOB, not his hobby.)

OT about practicing Standard alone--to me it's the worst of the four in that respect because it's inherently a contact sport. If you're at all super-sensitive to how something feels, practicing it alone and then practicing with a partner can really mess with your head. I could see the limitations on practicing together in pro/am being an issue if that were the case, but for someone doing pro/am and am/am it might not be as big a deal.

[tanya_the_dancer]

As for skill level, I think too much is made of this on the am side. Were I not partnered, level would not be in my top three considerations for choosing a partner.

I find it a bit ironic that the guys would always say how level is not a priority for them when choosing a partner, when it is easier for a leader to get a follower up to speed than the other way around.

[toothlesstiger]

From where I sit, in all the amateur partnerships I have been following, the lady is a better dancer than the man. If a lady wants to compete, she can either dance pro-am, or she has to (a) find a partner, (b) probably be limited in her results by her partner.

There is no standard for how pros charge their students for pro-ams. And the comps have created a boatload of pro-am categories specifically to allow a single pro to dance with many students at similar levels. For a local comp, my instructor has no minimum, and charges the same as the entry fee per dance. (That means $35/dance at the one coming up.) Their fellow pros in the same studio have different fee structures.

Pro-am is where the money is for a pro. Apparently some pros will dance 400 dances in a weekend comp. At a modest $35 per dance, that's $14k for a weekend. Plus all the private lessons getting ready for a comp. And I am not begrudging them that. If you're in it for the money, ballroom dance is probably not the right career choice.

[Piggles]

Hi JerseyDancer,

I hope my previous thread about closed/open routines didn't disillusion you about pro/am competition. I've turned down partners because I did not feel we were a good fit for each other (goals, age, ability, etc). If the right partner came along, I'd start doing am/am, but I wouldn't stop doing pro/am until I was confident the am/am relationship would work. The advantage of pro/am is that it allows me to dance at my highest ability without needing to compensate for a partner's flaws (ie, it's *all* about me). :)

With respect to comp fees, each studio/business is different. Currently I only pay for my pro's expenses when I compete, and these are shared with his other students. He has made the decision not to take on new competitive students who are in the same age/level as his existing comp students to avoid comp conflicts. Similarly, he and his wife offer a very high level of personal support and time to their students at no expense beyond the cost of the lessons.

Finally, it doesn't bother me that I dance the same routines as his other ladies - I'm not good enough that it makes a difference. :) Instead, he encourages his students to personalize their routines in terms of how the student interprets the step, style, music, timing, etc. So each of us do look very different on the floor.

To conclude, pro/am is right for some while am/am is right for others. If possible, why not try both?

[DL]

I find it a bit ironic that the guys would always say how level is not a priority for them when choosing a partner, when it is easier for a leader to get a follower up to speed than the other way around.

Suppose I were not partnered.

Prospective partners might suppose that my willingness to enter a partnership with them would depend most heavily on how good they are. If they were to suppose this they would be wrong.

Maybe you're unhappy at some perceived unfairness here. At any rate, only as an aside was I pointing out this (individual) male perspective on partnering for the edification of ladies who might wonder how gents look at this. My real point was that I think I could find plenty of things to work on in my own dancing with partners of quite varied experience levels.

Personally, I think a single litmus test based on level (however you measure that) would be incapable of measuring all the qualities that I value in a partner.

[NUdancer]

That's still a lesson and he's still teaching, and you're still paying. The point is more you can't just go dance with the pro whenever without paying for it (which people used to am/am might resent, but it is, after all, his JOB, not his hobby.)

OT about practicing Standard alone--to me it's the worst of the four in that respect because it's inherently a contact sport. If you're at all super-sensitive to how something feels, practicing it alone and then practicing with a partner can really mess with your head. I could see the limitations on practicing together in pro/am being an issue if that were the case, but for someone doing pro/am and am/am it might not be as big a deal.

I've found practicing alone to be extremely beneficial to my dancing. When you're in an am/am partnership, usually whatever practice time you can find is spent dancing together (unless you have very mis-matched schedules).

When you practice on your own, you start to recognize how much you rely on your partner for balance, movement, strength, etc. You can take things slowly and focus on improving those weaknesses that your partner might usually be compensating for. This is not to say practicing on your own all the time is great - it is, after all, a partner dance! But I found that my solo practices made me a much stronger dancer when I finally did get together with a partner.

[danceronice]

I've found practicing alone to be extremely beneficial to my dancing. When you're in an am/am partnership, usually whatever practice time you can find is spent dancing together (unless you have very mis-matched schedules).

When you practice on your own, you start to recognize how much you rely on your partner for balance, movement, strength, etc. You can take things slowly and focus on improving those weaknesses that your partner might usually be compensating for. This is not to say practicing on your own all the time is great - it is, after all, a partner dance! But I found that my solo practices made me a much stronger dancer when I finally did get together with a partner.

:rolleyes:

(I wish we had the green eye-roll smilie, it's not smiling while it does it.)

Did I say that practicing alone was bad? I said that for SOME PEOPLE (ie me) who are very senstive to how a thing feels to do it, practicing alone IN STANDARD is very difficult because it does not feel like dancing with a partner, because IN STANDARD there is always another center of gravity, which is a sensation impossible to recreate alone, while in the OTHER three divisions, there are always elements done entirely apart and they feel the same whether you practice alone or together. Now, for a visual learner or a verbal learner (iow, someone for whom watching videos, reading the books, or being talked at for ten minutes is more than the colossal waste of time it is for me in learning a physical activity) possibly it is not as disorienting to switch from alone to with a partner. For me, practicing STANDARD alone means I essentially have to relearn and redo how I do everything once I'm in contact with another person. The sensation is that different.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Suppose I were not partnered.

Prospective partners might suppose that my willingness to enter a partnership with them would depend most heavily on how good they are. If they were to suppose this they would be wrong.

Maybe you're unhappy at some perceived unfairness here. At any rate, only as an aside was I pointing out this (individual) male perspective on partnering for the edification of ladies who might wonder how gents look at this. My real point was that I think I could find plenty of things to work on in my own dancing with partners of quite varied experience levels.

Personally, I think a single litmus test based on level (however you measure that) would be incapable of measuring all the qualities that I value in a partner.

It's easier for the guy when he has more skill than the lady does and it is easier for the lady to improve when the guy is considerably better than she is, so she'll reduce the skill gap quicker. I have no idea how fast or slow a guy can close the skill gap if he is dancing with a considerably better lady, but who is still not as good as a teacher, so she can't compensate for his issues as efficiently as a teacher could. But my guess is that it's not as fast as for a lady in the same situation - otherwise guys doing pro-am would improve a lot faster, especially if they're dancing with really good teachers.

So basically what I see is that you consider something unimportant, but it is easier for you as a man to overcome it, than it is for a lady dealing with the same thing. And that's what I find ironic. It would be like if something was easy or natural for me, and I said "oh it's not that important" to a person for whom it is just the opposite - it's not easy or natural for them, so they have to think about that something more and are less likely to consider it unimportant.

[jerseydancer]

i have the same feeling about practicing Standard as danceronice. i have different balance dancing alone versus dancing in a couple. also i think for a leader in Standard practicing alone may be more beneficial than for the follower, a big part of my dancing Standard as follower is feeling what my lead is planning to do next and react appropriately.

[DL]

...

I'll just say that I personally disagree with any suggestion that nothing can be accomplished without a markedly more experienced partner.

My partner and I started practicing together with virtually no previous experience, and we have learned steadily at a rate with which we're both satisfied for several years now.

I'd like to leave it at that from my side, without getting into better/worse approaches to learning dancing, pro-am/am-am trade-offs, who has it easier/harder, etc.

[Warren J. Dew]

BTW, practicing standard alone does not sound that much fun. and how useful could that be?

Chris said most of what I would have said on your first set of questions, so I'll just give you my answer on this part.

Practicing alone can be quite useful for ingraining technical actions - as they say, "practice makes permanent". If your toe releases are bad, for example, but you can do a good one if you concentrate on it, then practicing alone can be a way of making that into a habit.

That said, it isn't a complete solution, as it's difficult to practice following, or even leading, alone.

[jerseydancer]

Practicing alone can be quite useful for ingraining technical actions - as they say, "practice makes permanent". If your toe releases are bad, for example, but you can do a good one if you concentrate on it, then practicing alone can be a way of making that into a habit.

very good suggestion, thank you

[Larinda McRaven]

If I understand you, you are already competing with a well matched amateur partner, and you both take pro-am lessons with your coaches. In that case, pro-am competition is unlikely to help your dancing. You've already got amateur competitions for feedback, and you do your learning in lessons.

got to say de-nay-no my brother... :)

I have several couples who dance as am-am together and the boys dance also pro-am with me. They all love it because while competing with me they get to feel something different on the competition floor. There are things that his am partner cannot do for him, and no amount of studio-lesson time with me can prepare someone for all of the traps and pitfalls of a real competition floor. Dancing with me he can see how quickly it is possible to change and make decisions. My mind is working over time while I compete and I highly encourage all of the boys, as soon as we get off the floor, to consider what just happened, and how they can then replicate that for themselves. And it just is never going to happen with that amount of intensity or necessity in the studio.

[Chris Stratton]

Their amateur partners won't let them deviate from routine?

[DL]

Their amateur partners won't let them deviate from routine?

Some time ago I danced with a top pro in a social venue. It was a foxtrot on a relatively small floor that was quite crowded with couples dancing bronze american foxtrot. I was set to dance likewise, so I could control the floorcraft better, but she was intent on continuity footwork and we danced silver smooth (in closed hold) for the whole song. And, they were big and fast-moving continuity steps.

There's simply no way that, at the time (nor perhaps today), I could have done that with a partner in my peer group. I would have hit somebody trying, indeed probably several somebodys. She didn't exactly backlead, but she knew what my only correct choice for the next step was before I did, and she was ready to follow it before I finished working it out for myself. I don't think I could have gained that sort of experience any other way, and it did open my eyes to new possibilities.

[Chris Stratton]

Only correct choice?

[DL]

Only correct choice?

Constrained by crowd, room size, the speed and size of the steps we were taking, and staying on beat, yes. Or at least, the only choice I could perceive even in retrospect. At several points I would have, on my own, concluded there were zero choices meeting those constraints, and broken stride, switched to SSQQ, stopped to wait for a measure, or the like.

[Chris Stratton]

If there is one proper moving choice there are almost always several. But I'd be more appreciative of a partner for whom hovering or moving smaller are also options.

[DL]

If there is one proper moving choice there are almost always several. But I'd be more appreciative of a partner for whom hovering or moving smaller are also options.

I refuse to be drawn in to this. Let me simply rephrase and say that I gained a perspective into floorcraft in that situation that was beyond my individual ability at the time, that I doubt I could have gotten another way.

[Larinda McRaven]

Thank you DL, that is precisely what I meant.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm sorry to see that people believe amateur ladies are not in a position to enable a leader's learning. Such beliefs are usually self fulfilling, but fortunately so are their opposites.

[danceronice]

I'm sorry to see that people believe amateur ladies are not in a position to enable a leader's learning.

And that isn't what DL or Larinda said. Nowhere in there was an absolute statement that leaders cannot learn anything from dancing with amateur women.

[DL]

I'm sorry to see that people believe amateur ladies are not in a position to enable a leader's learning. Such beliefs are usually self fulfilling, but fortunately so are their opposites.

Have you read all of my replies in this thread?

[Warren J. Dew]

And that isn't what DL or Larinda said. Nowhere in there was an absolute statement that leaders cannot learn anything from dancing with amateur women.

Nor did Chris make an absolute statement. "There are things his amateur partner cannot do for him" implies to me that, well, there are things the leader can't learn while dancing with the lady who is his amateur partner, which is pretty much what Chris said.

Obviously I don't know about those specific cases, but in general I'm certainly willing to believe that there are some amateur ladies who, for example, don't follow well enough for the leader to gain confidence in his floorcraft. I do question whether that's the original poster's situation, and I also wonder if a better approach for the amateur partnership in that situation wouldn't be for the lady to work on her following ability.

[Chris Stratton]

Have you read all of my replies in this thread?

Yes.


Let me simply rephrase and say that I gained a perspective into floorcraft in that situation that was beyond my individual ability at the time, that I doubt I could have gotten another way.

Have you danced with an amateur lady who has the balance and control to enable a range of options for you?

Have you posed yourself alone in various places in the room, brainstormed your options, and then made an effort during relaxed practice to incorporate them into your subconscious vocabulary?

[NUdancer]

Chris said most of what I would have said on your first set of questions, so I'll just give you my answer on this part.

Practicing alone can be quite useful for ingraining technical actions - as they say, "practice makes permanent". If your toe releases are bad, for example, but you can do a good one if you concentrate on it, then practicing alone can be a way of making that into a habit.

That said, it isn't a complete solution, as it's difficult to practice following, or even leading, alone.

Warren, you said this much more eloquently and simply than I did :)

[DL]

Yes.

Have you danced with an amateur lady who has the balance and control to enable a range of options for you?

I have danced with a wide variety of pro and amateur ladies across a broad spectrum of experience levels.

I sense (wrongly?) an implication in your recent comments that in your view I'm somehow arguing that I can't learn by dancing with amateur ladies. For the record, I'm saying nothing of the sort. In fact, I've already stated in this thread that I've had experience to the contrary.

Larinda pointed out a specific way in which a relatively inexperienced leader might learn something from a very experienced follower. I've experienced first hand exactly the case she describes. The lady with whom I had that experience certainly is capable of providing "a range of options". The point is that she had floorcraft skills decidedly superior to my own, and was able to give me a notion of what it's like to have and use that skill set.

There's no contradiction there. I just see a lot of ways to learn from dancing with different people.

[DL]

Have you posed yourself alone in various places in the room, brainstormed your options, and then made an effort during relaxed practice to incorporate them into your subconscious vocabulary?


Certainly, but nonetheless I discern skill significantly greater than mine, in that and other areas, among those of my partners who have spent 20 or 30 years doing that sort of thing full time. A small few of them are even able to teach me a bit about it during the space of a single dance, provided I'm paying attention.

[LaWa]

I miss a poll option "I dance am/am because I have no other option". That is the case in many European countries.

[Chris Stratton]

I miss a poll option "I dance am/am because I have no other option". That is the case in many European countries.

There actually is a comparable dynamic to some top pro/am teams going on in places without a category reserved for it, typically an amateur or pro competitor retired from their own ascent, dancing with a student, registered in either pro or amateur over 35.

[Chris Stratton]

Certainly, but nonetheless I discern skill significantly greater than mine, in that and other areas, among those of my partners who have spent 20 or 30 years doing that sort of thing full time. A small few of them are even able to teach me a bit about it during the space of a single dance, provided I'm paying attention.

This is somewhat more nuanced than the previous claim of something that you could not have gotten in any other way.

I'm not going to say that one can't learn some useful things fairly quickly in a pro/am context, because obviously that does happen.

But I am going to observe that it often has the effect of raising ones requirements of a partner faster than one's potential contributions to a partner.

[danceronice]

Nor did Chris make an absolute statement. "There are things his amateur partner cannot do for him" implies to me that, well, there are things the leader can't learn while dancing with the lady who is his amateur partner, which is pretty much what Chris said.


I'm sorry to see that people believe amateur ladies are not in a position to enable a leader's learning.

That's an absolute statement. Implying that DL said that am gentlemen can never learn from am ladies, which isn't what he meant.

[Chris Stratton]

Would it be clearer if I had said "fully enable" ?

[DL]

I vote we let this go. I think I've been successful in communicating at least the gist of my meaning.

[ChaChaMama]

I vote we let this go. I think I've been successful in communicating at least the gist of my meaning.

I vote the same OR that this "debate" spin off into its own thread.

***
Further reflection: I don't think there is necessarily anything technical that I get out of pro-am competing that I couldn't get out of pro-am/solo lessons where I get to dance with the teacher. I do, however, think that working on our pro-am routines A) bring up a lot of problem issues that I would want to work on anyway, and B) gives us a goal to work toward.

So I think the pro-am lessons have been very beneficial to my am-am dancing. The pro-am competing is a FUN ADDITION to my dance life.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I vote the same OR that this "debate" spin off into its own thread.

***
Further reflection: I don't think there is necessarily anything technical that I get out of pro-am competing that I couldn't get out of pro-am/solo lessons where I get to dance with the teacher. I do, however, think that working on our pro-am routines A) bring up a lot of problem issues that I would want to work on anyway, and B) gives us a goal to work toward.

So I think the pro-am lessons have been very beneficial to my am-am dancing. The pro-am competing is a FUN ADDITION to my dance life.

We can take the tangent up here:

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=34544

I personally feel that taking lessons by myself and competing allowed me to improve further and more efficiently than I could have done in am-am partnership with a person who was roughly at the same skill level I was 6 years ago in the same amount of time. If I just took lessons, but didn't compete, I'm not sure if I would have had taken my dancing as far as I did, because, like I said elsewhere, I can survive our dance socials without any difficulties and if that was my goal, I achieved it a while ago.

[Larinda McRaven]

I'm sorry to see that people believe amateur ladies are not in a position to enable a leader's learning. Such beliefs are usually self fulfilling, but fortunately so are their opposites.

No... what you could learn from dancing with a professional competitor and levels higher than your current partner is different that what you would learn dancing with your current am partner....

Have you posed yourself alone in various places in the room, brainstormed your options, and then made an effort during relaxed practice to incorporate them into your subconscious vocabulary?

We are not talking about improving the art of dancing (alone in a room contemplating the releasing your toe a thousand times over) but improving the art of competing .... which has elements that can only be improved ... in a competition. My students improve and have epiphanies during a weekend of competing far more valuable and extensive that they will ever get in a studio debating the theory of which turn might be better suited to which possible interruption at perhaps a certain point in the choreography at various locations along a wall.

So understanding that principle, which I think no one here can really debate... it can be said:
You learn different things in the studio than you do on the comp floor.

And it is a very easy statement to agree to that :
You will learn different things from a partner that is at a higher level than yourself than from a partner that is equal to your skill level.

[Larinda McRaven]

I will not split this thread. It actually is right on target. "What is Pro-Am Dancing"

but I might rename it to "What is it to Dance With Someone Better Than Yourself"

[Larinda McRaven]

I am going to take a VERY EXTREME case here and lay it out. And I mean absolutely NO OFFENSE to any of the individuals named as I skew the labels a tiny bit.

Arunas used to Dance With Edita. They were a damn fine amateur couple.

Arunas is now dancing "pro-am" with Katusha and became a wdc world champion. Edita is now dancing "pro-am" with Mirko and has became a wdc world finalist and ipdsc world champion.

If you were to put them back together as an amateur couple... would their results (removing any thought or debate of politics) be better than they were a few years back?

Would their learning curve have risen by dancing with Professional World Champions (pro-am)... even though in their own right they were Champions (amateur)?

Will their dancing benefit by doing "pro-am"?

[samina]

arunas danced pro-am events with katusha, and edita danced pro-am events with mirko?

[Larinda McRaven]

oh lord.... no.

that was just my way of saying he danced with a pro who was bestter than his amateur partner.

I knew that post was going to get me in trouble. :)

[Chris Stratton]

No... what you could learn from dancing with a professional competitor and levels higher than your current partner is different that what you would learn dancing with your current am partner....

Yes, it is different, because its a different mix of job requirements. If one is simply looking for an experience in its own right, it makes sense.

But if one is looking to build skills for future work in an equitable partnership, it really doesn't, because the skills tend not to get built in balanced proportions, and the pace of capability not keep up with the requirements it places on a partner.

Using pro/am to get ahead in the am/am scene sounds like a good idea, but tends to work only in rarely exceptional cases. Even if pro/am were perfectly transferable education, there would still be the reality that the pool of potential partners to pick and grow together with gets smaller at increasing level, not larger. For someone with the eventual goal of an equitable partnership, that money is usually better spent buying a greater amount of training and experience within one, if its at all possible to arrange.

Its easy to make a sales pitch for pro/am as a way to get ahead, but ultimately the biographies of the overwhelming majority of amateur and professional competitors make it clear that there is no skill required in an equitable partnership which cannot be effectively grown within the limitations of one. Especially when one remembers what the most critical enabling skill of a partnership dance competitor really is.

[Lioness]

So, uh, I take it this is a touchy subject with a lot of people...

[Chris Stratton]

Arunas is now dancing "pro-am" with Katusha

Wake me up when your spaceship is within a few light years of earth

If you were to put them back together as an amateur couple... would their results (removing any thought or debate of politics) be better than they were a few years back?

If they had stayed together and the partnership were healthy, they would probably be in the top three of the pro.

[Larinda McRaven]

Chris when you teach... do you not TOUCH your students? Do you not give them your body to feel, to transfer knowledge, as if by osmosis? That is pro-am. A teacher lending their body for the benefit of a student. Otherwise when you have your classes you would just sit in a chair in the corner and bark commands.

[Larinda McRaven]

Wake me up when your spaceship is within a few light years of earth
I stated at the beginning of that post that I was skewing the respective labels of the situation. labels I assigned.


I have not taken the opportunity to take personal jabs at you although they are a plenty. I am requesting nicely that you do not towards me. I don't think it is wise to do so personally or for the fact that you are addressing a mod.

[DL]

Its easy to make a sales pitch for pro/am as a way to get ahead

I can say that I learned something by dancing with a highly accomplished/experienced dancer without arguing that pro/am is a way to get ahead (whatever that means).

[Chris Stratton]

Chris when you teach... do you not TOUCH your students? Do you not give them your body to feel, to transfer knowledge, as if by osmosis? That is pro-am. A teacher lending their body for the benefit of a student.

Yes, I do. And as a result I've seen a degree of the potential problem from the perspective of being its cause, too.

I had a student who was doing really well building the kinds of core technique that makes a partnership physically practical. And for a while it seemed she was managing to set up a tryout a week, with a series of guys any of whom I would have enjoyed coaching her in partnership with. But she had basically filled her ballroom time/budget with solo work and was unwilling to make any of the compromises needed to create a partnership and gain a more complete experience.

Do I believe theres a role for some work with a teacher? Yes, I do. But I think its more effective in the big picture when done close to the context of a partnership application.

[samina]

oh lord.... no.

that was just my way of saying he danced with a pro who was bestter than his amateur partner.

I knew that post was going to get me in trouble. :)

ah, gotcha. okay, that's like luca being in the vicinity of 96th in the world starting to dance with lorraine who was 3rd. i can think of a number of other examples like this, where established pros started dancing with promising ams and quickly found their way into the finals together.

dancing with someone better than you is a powerful thing, if you have checked your ego at the door and are in maximal-learning-mode and are in a state of readiness for rapid improvement.

[Lioness]

While not a pro-am dancer, I have danced with DP and with teacher, and there is a marked difference.

With DP, we are more used to the way we move, and thus can dance more 'together'. We are very tuned in to each other's movements. However, if I had spent a couple of years taking lessons with a pro, it is likely that the same will happen.

With DT, it's easier to dance steps correctly. He already knows the leads, knows the best way to lead a step to make the follower respond in the way she is meant to. DP is still developing that. As such, when dancing with DT, it's easier to dance the step correctly. With DP, I'm sort of fudging bits to make up for what he's not quite doing (I don't at all mean to imply that I do nothing wrong...I do almost everything wrong)

So, right now, I could dance with DT and DP, and the dancing would be easier and better to watch with DT. If DP and I continue to work together and continue to improve our technique and connection, then our dancing will also be easy and nice to watch.

[Larinda McRaven]

So, uh, I take it this is a touchy subject with a lot of people...

Welcome to the lions den :)

[Lioness]

Oh, and do excuse my earlier post...it's 1.30am here and I'm not thinking too coherently.

[DL]

Do I believe theres a role for some work with a teacher? Yes, I do. But I think its more effective in the big picture when done close to the context of a partnership application.


I could agree with that. If there are things one might learn from the very experienced, things one might learn from the totally inexperienced, and things one might learn from peers -- surely one ought not to dismiss any of those learning opportunities out of hand.

Incidentally, I think the converse of your statement also turns out to be true: partnerships are more effective when a teacher is involved.

[Chris Stratton]

Incidentally, I think the converse of your statement also turns out to be true: partnerships are more effective when a teacher is involved.

Of course. The problem is with the difference between short term and long term if one faces a choice between the teacher and partner.

[Meagan]

I don't really see why this has all gotten so contentious...it seems to me that half the time its been almost two different questions of what can be learned and what is the best way to improve your amateur status (for lack of a better word).

To me these aren't the same things, as I can't imagine everyone on here has the same goals or for that matter learns the same way. And we already certainly know from many posts that not everyone has the same partnership opportunities available.

I'd also imagine any real answer to that second question would change at least a little bit depending on whether those participating in pro-am were already a part of their own working am-am couple v. someone who did pro-am only and then made a switch to am-am...

[ChaChaMama]

I personally feel that taking lessons by myself and competing allowed me to improve further and more efficiently than I could have done in am-am partnership with a person who was roughly at the same skill level I was 6 years ago in the same amount of time. If I just took lessons, but didn't compete, I'm not sure if I would have had taken my dancing as far as I did, because, like I said elsewhere, I can survive our dance socials without any difficulties and if that was my goal, I achieved it a while ago.

If you go back to the OP, though, I think the question isn't

-does an individual advance further if she competes in JUST a pro-am partnership than she would if she competed in JUST an am-am partnership?

but rather

-does an individual who ALREADY competes am-am and plans to CONTINUE competing am-am benefit from adding pro-am?

My personal experience suggests to me the answer is YES, but I recognize my experience is not universal.

Btw, I would by no means suggest that dancing both is problem free. For example, when dancing with my teacher, he wants to lead every component of a figure. I do not get that same kind of highly articulate lead from my am partner, and would drive him crazy if I stood still and refused to move waiting for it. If we were pre-champ/champ ams, it might be different, but we're silver.

I still think it's beneficial. And being able to adjust to different leads is part of being a follow.

[Chris Stratton]

I stated at the beginning of that post that I was skewing the respective labels of the situation. labels I assigned.

Labels that are absurd in light of the record of where top amateurs end up upon turning pro in their partnerships.

[Chris Stratton]

-does an individual who ALREADY competes am-am and plans to CONTINUE competing am-am benefit from adding pro-am?
-does an individual who ALREADY competes am-am and plans to CONTINUE competing am-am benefit from adding pro-am?

I would caution even more strongly where there's an existing partnership to risk stressing (especially if its a tolerably effective one built on top of a marriage), than when one is only running the risk of offering mismatched expectations vs. contributions to a theoretical partner yet to be identified.

For example, when dancing with my teacher, he wants to lead every component of a figure. I do not get that same kind of highly articulate lead from my am partner, and would drive him crazy if I stood still and refused to move waiting for it. If we were pre-champ/champ ams, it might be different, but we're silver.

Wouldn't it be a better use of money to address this, and anything you might be doing to complicate it, rather than get you used to what he isn't ready to provide? (Practically adressing this: posture and foot support for both, leader knowing exactly what he's trying to get follower to do, follower drilling reflexes for all required actions, couple practicing a variety of confusingly similar figures off routine to gain awareness of the differences)

And being able to adjust to different leads is part of being a follow.

Yes, but you don't have to invest in competing with them to do it. Arguably you would get more of that from dancing shallowly with a number of collegues and teachers than deeply with one teacher.

[Warren J. Dew]

ah, gotcha. okay, that's like luca being in the vicinity of 96th in the world starting to dance with lorraine who was 3rd. i can think of a number of other examples like this, where established pros started dancing with promising ams and quickly found their way into the finals together.

Not to pick on you, Samina, but could everyone investigate their examples a bit more carefully before using them?

Luca was 4th with Amanda Owen. Lorraine was 2nd with Andrew Sinkinson. When they switched partners, Andrew and Amanda immediately slotted in at 2nd and Luca and Lorraine immediately slotted in 4th. It was only over the course of a number of years that Luca and Lorraine worked their way up to 1st.

The situation with Arunas and Edita is similar. They were in the same league as the partners they switched to. None of these cases were substantially more asymmetrical than one commonly finds in typical partnerships. In the case of Arunas and Katusha, it's not even clear which one was the stronger partner going in, since their placement together was better than either had done with their respective former partners.

Is it possible for a very good pro to drag a much weaker pro into the top ranks? Well, Andrew Sinkinson did do that with an American partner one year, barely making the final at Blackpool. However, it's unclear how much that partner's dancing benefited in the long run; certainly she never came close to that competitive accomplishment with any other partner.

[Meagan]

I think this may go back to not everyone having the same goals or learning the same way...

Besides CCM has mentioned (and anyone who has met her knows) she likes to have fun and if that's its purpose it can be just as valid for her :)

[Warren J. Dew]

If you go back to the OP, though, I think the question isn't

-does an individual advance further if she competes in JUST a pro-am partnership than she would if she competed in JUST an am-am partnership?

but rather

-does an individual who ALREADY competes am-am and plans to CONTINUE competing am-am benefit from adding pro-am?

That's how I interpret the original post as well, with the additional caveat that the question only concerns adding pro-am competition over and above pro-am lessons.

I definitely agree with you that people seem to be switching to the former question instead.

I do think some of the confusion comes from several missing options for answering the poll.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Btw, I would by no means suggest that dancing both is problem free. For example, when dancing with my teacher, he wants to lead every component of a figure. I do not get that same kind of highly articulate lead from my am partner, and would drive him crazy if I stood still and refused to move waiting for it. If we were pre-champ/champ ams, it might be different, but we're silver.


That's one reason why I'm hesitant about getting into a practice partnership with a guy doing bronze. I know I will not get same lead quality from him that I get from my teacher, in fact I probably won't get same lead quality from him as from some silver guys I know, and hence I am not sure what I can possibly get out of this kind of partnership.

[ChaChaMama]

That's one reason why I'm hesitant about getting into a practice partnership with a guy doing bronze. I know I will not get same lead quality from him that I get from my teacher, in fact I probably won't get same lead quality from him as from some silver guys I know, and hence I am not sure what I can possibly get out of this kind of partnership.

I see where you are coming from.

On the other hand, if you were talking about an am competitive partnership, I would encourage you to go for it!

USA Dance comps are FANTASTIC, and that's a whole second world that opens up if you have both kinds of partnerships. :)

[Chris Stratton]

That's one reason why I'm hesitant about getting into a practice partnership with a guy doing bronze. I know I will not get same lead quality from him that I get from my teacher, in fact I probably won't get same lead quality from him as from some silver guys I know, and hence I am not sure what I can possibly get out of this kind of partnership.

That depends if by practice partnership you mean something of limited future. If you are talking about now, I think the question would be if you can get exercise, enjoyment, and an opportunity to practice using important fundamentals under less than ideal circumstances. Yes, not the most captivating offering.

(Also should add, much more important than it sounds: by taking part in a partnership you advertise yourself as partnerable)

If it could have a future though, I think the question would be if he is someone you imagine you eventually could grow with, and if you both are going to be able to maintain an opening for that in your lives.

The longer I have been dancing, the more I have come to believe that a good partnership is about the right combination of people, more than the right combination of experience.

[ChaChaMama]

I would caution even more strongly where there's an existing partnership to risk stressing (especially if its a tolerably effective one built on top of a marriage), than when one is only running the risk of offering mismatched expectations vs. contributions to a theoretical partner yet to be identified.



Wouldn't it be a better use of money to address this, and anything you might be doing to complicate it, rather than get you used to what he isn't ready to provide? (Practically adressing this: posture and foot support for both, leader knowing exactly what he's trying to get follower to do, follower drilling reflexes for all required actions, couple practicing a variety of confusingly similar figures off routine to gain awareness of the differences)



Yes, but you don't have to invest in competing with them to do it. Arguably you would get more of that from dancing shallowly with a number of collegues and teachers than deeply with one teacher.

Advice noted. And I'm almost sure I made the same point about how I don't have to invest in competing in an earlier post. In case my earlier post wasn't clear on this point, I fully admit that I do not have to spend my money this way. I do it because I THINK IT IS FUN.
My money, my decision, yes?
I'm generally pretty level-headed and disciplined about money. I'm allowed to have a little fun. If it stops being fun, I'll stop doing it.

***

As of yesterday (Bastille Day), I have 20 years experience being married. My dance partnership is what it is and I'm grateful to have a spouse who is willing to dance with me some of the time. :)

[Chris Stratton]

While its not precisely your point, I would be the first to agree that sometimes a partnership needs a window of time in which concerns and dreams are usefully distracted from the pace of progress of the facts on the ground.

[Meagan]

Congrats (again) on 20 years CCM!! Sounds like a pretty solid dance partnership to me ;) Whatever you're doing seems to be working...including the fun haha

[DL]

Wouldn't it be a better use of money to[...]


I can't think of any question that starts out this way that has one right answer for all people.

[barrefly]

My daughter did great in a pro am comp she did some months back, but in her am-am comp she did this weekend, she went down in flames. Her event was the first night and the rest of the weekend she hung out with the other dancers. She apparently discovered something about the young adult latin dance world. Win or lose, everyone is still fun to hang out with. LOL

This experience seems to have had a great impact on her/us. She is acting differently and seems to be much more comfortable with her dance and is beginning to take ownership of it. I guess that a good dancer doesn't just have to be in control of their body, but of their mind as well.

She is going to San Fran. for a comp in a few weeks just with her partner and friends.
I wonder if I will be able to recognize her when she gets back?

[Chris Stratton]

There is a lot to be said for having a peer group.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I see where you are coming from.

On the other hand, if you were talking about an am competitive partnership, I would encourage you to go for it!

USA Dance comps are FANTASTIC, and that's a whole second world that opens up if you have both kinds of partnerships. :)

Congrats on your anniversary!

I'm sure that USA Dance comps are fun to do, but they're all so far from our hometown. The ones I consider within driving distance are 7 hours away, everything else we'd have to fly to. Given that, I don't think an am competitive partnership is a viable option here.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm sure that USA Dance comps are fun to do, but they're all so far from our hometown. The ones I consider within driving distance are 7 hours away, everything else we'd have to fly to. Given that, I don't think an am competitive partnership is a viable option here.

There is indeed a huge chicken and egg problem.

It probably is more cost effective to train and transport the right amateur partnership...

...but identifying it without a nurturing local adult amateur community may be difficult.

[danceronice]

There is indeed a huge chicken and egg problem.

It probably is more cost effective to train and transport the right amateur partnership...

...but identifying it without a nurturing local adult amateur community may be difficult.

And, again, assuming that is WHAT YOU WANT.

I personally don't see the point of wasting time and money on competitions where I have to reach a certain level before I can wear what I want, having to take whatever I can get as far as partners are concerned, tolerate with someone else's learning curve (I already ride a green horse, I have no desire to put up with a green dance partner) and try and find a competition somewhere vaguely in the vicinty. If you are in NY, I'm sure that's easy. If you're in the central Midwest, not so much. And if you are never going to reach a particularly high level, never mind turn pro, why spend the time, effort, money and stress trying to find a partner who'll only add time and problems to your own progress and you to theirs?

As I'm the one paying, I don't want to waste time on someone else's issues. If the absolutely perfect partner in terms of height, build, age, temperament and experience came along, I might think about it. I am not going to putz around with someone who isn't any of those in the meantime when I could be entirely focused on my progress with a pro whom I'm paying to focus on me. Why add to the frustration?

Now, if I were the age of barrefly's daughter, dancing since I could tie my shoes, etc and had a reasonable expectation of doing this full-time, that would be another story. I'm not. I have a better chance of making the Open Hunter finals at Devon than I do of ever making it out of a single round in Blackpool (read: slightly better than zero, but not much.) So why take the most efficient route to enjoying myself?

[Chris Stratton]

1) It's not easy in NY, because there's little organization beyond the young adult demographic. Sure, there is great coaching to escalate to, but there is no ground level factory for adult amateurs here either.

2) I would hesitate to assume that you could not with determined effort make the first callback at Blackpool, even in standard ;-}. It is primarily about forming a workable partnership, finding a coach with the needed information, and being willing to do what they ask. None of those things are easy, but all are possible.

[wooh]

I would hesitate to assume that you could not with determined effort make the first callback at Blackpool, even in standard ;-}. It is primarily about forming a workable partnership, finding a coach with the needed information, and being willing to do what they ask. None of those things are easy, but all are possible.

You base this theory on how many of your finals at Blackpool?

[Chris Stratton]

You base this theory on how many of your finals at Blackpool?

I believe we were talking about the first recall, which is to be bluntly honest about it, largely about removing those with the more obvious unresolved issues. It was pretty easy to figure out from the balcony who was and wasn't going to survive that one.

So, if you get a good working partnership, clean up the major issues, and go for it, you should be able to earn a recall.

[tanya_the_dancer]

That depends if by practice partnership you mean something of limited future. If you are talking about now, I think the question would be if you can get exercise, enjoyment, and an opportunity to practice using important fundamentals under less than ideal circumstances. Yes, not the most captivating offering.

(Also should add, much more important than it sounds: by taking part in a partnership you advertise yourself as partnerable)

If it could have a future though, I think the question would be if he is someone you imagine you eventually could grow with, and if you both are going to be able to maintain an opening for that in your lives.

The longer I have been dancing, the more I have come to believe that a good partnership is about the right combination of people, more than the right combination of experience.

I have a bit of a problem with the implication in your first paragraph that without a partnership, a person cannot practice. I do an average of 75-90 minutes of solo practice on days when I do not have lessons. It's definitely exercise and it's definitely useful for my dancing. Just because I'm doing it solo, it doesn't count?

It would be nice to convert some of this time into practice with a person who can capably lead me through things, so that I can work on some things related to following, but can it happen under the circumstances I described?

[Chris Stratton]

Well, the risk of doing things alone (for either role) is that you don't get feedback when you do something uncomfortable or impractical for two bodies.

[wooh]

So, if you get a good working partnership, clean up the major issues, and go for it, you should be able to earn a recall.
And you base this theory on the experience of how many times you've been recalled at Blackpool?

[Chris Stratton]

And you base this theory on the experience of how many times you've been recalled at Blackpool?

I base it on having judged that round from the balcony, and finding that the judges on the floor were in agreement about which of the couples I was following to recall.

On what do you base your opposition?

[fascination]

are we on topic?...innocent question (though I never liked the original one to begin with---at least not as it is titled on the thread...the poll question makes a bit more sense)...because it doesn't seem like we are...but I am tired and not very bright :)

[Chris Stratton]

Legitimate question. My point was basically that moderate success in an amateur partnership is more about ability to stay jointly focused on a task long enough to achieve the desired result, than anything else. And secondly that some things aren't nearly as farfetched as the lack of knowing people attempting them would suggest.

[fascination]

fair enough...though I don't see moderate success in pro/am to be much different

[barrefly]

I believe we were talking about the first recall, which is to be bluntly honest about it, largely about removing those with the more obvious unresolved issues. It was pretty easy to figure out from the balcony who was and wasn't going to survive that one.
I must say Chris,...I love they way you phrase it..."...which is to be bluntly honest about it, largely about removing those with the more obvious unresolved issues."

I guess that a dancers potential can sometimes be deterimined by if they can "resolve" those unresolved issues. LOL

P.S. I just learned about "recalls". I really like the way that works. It doesn't add insult to dancers that don't make recall.

[Purr]

That is pro-am. A teacher lending their body for the benefit of a student. Otherwise when you have your classes you would just sit in a chair in the corner and bark commands. (Emphasis)

I had a good laugh when I read this statement, becuase I've had it happen in lessons, mostly with smooth and standard. The situation happens to correct whatever technique problem I've got going (could be any number of things). Pro says if I can't dance it by myself, then I can't dance it with him. After a fashion, meaning whenever I start to get a clue, we'll pick up again.

No comment on the rest of the thread, other than it has been an interesting read, especially the view of the am/am leads that posted.

[fascination]

I find that a great deal of my lessons involve dancing alone...not alot of pro donating/lending his body to the cause around here :)....but this is probably because I am a brute and neither one of them (past or present) have been into injury

[Chris Stratton]

I consider having another tolerably capable body quite useful as a reference for the two-body-problem nature of the task, unless one is working to reprogram very clearly defined habits.

A teacher's body can be useful to illustrate an idea beyond just words.

Uniquely, a teacher's body can sometimes be used to help a student experience something they are still short of being physically able to do alone, for example to meter out a student's descent into a fuller and more aligned posture lowering than they can yet achieve alone, or to help sustain balance.

[fascination]

I consider having another tolerably capable body quite useful as a reference for the two-body-problem nature of the task, unless one is working to reprogram very clearly defined habits.

A teacher's body can be useful to illustrate an idea beyond just words.

Uniquely, a teacher's body can sometimes be used to help a student experience something they are still short of being physically able to do alone, for example to meter out a student's descent into a fuller and more aligned posture lowering than they can yet achieve alone, or to help sustain balance.
or it can prevent a student fro realizing what they aren't achieving on their own

[Chris Stratton]

or it can prevent a student fro realizing what they aren't achieving on their own

This tends to depend on how it is used, and if there are other comparably deep attempts to evaluate (partnership or solo, vs some random person at the social)

There's also an interesting effect that can happen on occasion, where a strong reaction to the "being carried around" stereotype can lead to trying to do counterproductively more than one's job.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I consider having another tolerably capable body quite useful as a reference for the two-body-problem nature of the task, unless one is working to reprogram very clearly defined habits.

You can always work around that issue. There is always something you can practice, even when you're not trying to reprogram prior habits. And the concept of "tolerable" varies for different people.

You do have a point that while we pro-am dancers are improving our dancing on our own, someone else is not improving together with us, so the pool of skilled potential partners is not increasing. And I agree, it is a chicken-egg situation - if you don't have a large enough pool, you can't build up partnerships, and you can't have a pool of potential partners without having some people get to a certain capability point first. But that is only a big point if one's goal is to eventually compete am-am. Mine isn't.

[fascination]

This tends to depend on how it is used, and if there are other comparably deep attempts to evaluate (partnership or solo, vs some random person at the social)

There's also an interesting effect that can happen on occasion, where a strong reaction to the "being carried around" stereotype can lead to trying to do counterproductively more than one's job.or the person assessing the dancing (since we are talking pro/am here) is a competant pro with a superb capacity to provide appropriate feedback and assess the situation quite well