Question about ECS music..

[love2swing]

I notice a lot of songs that I have downloaded as East Coast Swing music are listed in a lot of places as good songs to Jive to. Are ECS music and Jive music basically interchangable, or am I missing something? Thanks!

[Sagitta]

I don't know too much about swing, but I was under the impression that ECS music tends to be lower tempo music then jive. The way one dances the two seems to me to be a reflection of the tempo differences. I guess a really fast ECS song can be a slow jive? :? :)

Lets see what the experts say. :wink: :)

[jon]

I don't know too much about swing, but I was under the impression that ECS music tends to be lower tempo music then jive.

I'd generally agree, based on such Jive music as I've heard in the US, which isn't much. But the problem with the question as phrased is that "ECS" is a very vague label. What you hear for it at ballroom venues is often 50s vocals in a moderate and limited tempo range, but it is danced to a very broad range of music and tempos by other folks outside the ballroom context. When I started dancing our local swing club was booking mostly blues and Western Swing bands, for example.

[pygmalion]

jon is right. In a social setting, people dance ECS to a lot of different tempos of music, so it's hard to say what "ECS music" really is.

I'll see if I can find the regulation tempos for each in ballroom competition dancing. Those are clearly defined, and I'm pretty sure jive is faster than ECS. It's in the USABDA rule book, I think.

[pygmalion]

Okay, so here are the tempi in measures per minute. Jive is WAY faster than regulation ECS. (The rest of the dances are listed as well. I just pulled the dances of interest.)



Dances MPM


International Jive 44

American East Coast Swing 34-36

[jdavidb]

Is "That's Alright Mama" by Elvis a Jive tune? Would Jive be an ideal 50's representation dance?

[pygmalion]

Don't know for sure. I'm not much of an Elvis fan (there're only two Elvis songs I like LOL)

But here's a page I found, which has recommendations of jive music. Maybe this list will help you get a feel for it.

http://ballroomdancemusic.info/MyPicks/Jive.htm

[Genesius Redux]

You know what I hate? How they sometimes slow down the music to get it into the parameters of regulation tempo. Puts it in a different key and everything!

People should dance to the music the artist recorded for gosh sake, and competitions should use music that's already at the appropriate tempo!

[Sagitta]

That drives me crazy too R, especially when I know the song. I want to go faster or slower, but the song just isn't right because it has been artifically fixed. :headwall:

[pygmalion]

You know what I hate? How they sometimes slow down the music to get it into the parameters of regulation tempo. Puts it in a different key and everything!


You crack me up, but that's a good observation. I knew I was in trouble, samba-wise, when Shakira started sounding like Lou Rawls. :shock: Uh. Can you say, not ready to do that step yet? :oops: :lol:

[etchuck]

I notice a lot of songs that I have downloaded as East Coast Swing music are listed in a lot of places as good songs to Jive to. Are ECS music and Jive music basically interchangable, or am I missing something? Thanks!

Actually, if you are a hardcore ECS/lindy dancer, there is a major difference. ECS/lindy music has more of a jazz/big band influence, while ballroom jive does not require that element musically. "Wake me up before you go-go" by Wham, most lindy people will refuse to dance to it, while I personally enjoy doing ECS or jive to it. Ditto that with quickstep vs. lindy.

The speed aspect is also important, as it has already been discussed.

[jdavidb]

"Wake me up before you go-go"

Do the jitterbug

[pygmalion]

I notice a lot of songs that I have downloaded as East Coast Swing music are listed in a lot of places as good songs to Jive to. Are ECS music and Jive music basically interchangable, or am I missing something? Thanks!

Actually, if you are a hardcore ECS/lindy dancer, there is a major difference. ECS/lindy music has more of a jazz/big band influence, while ballroom jive does not require that element musically. "Wake me up before you go-go" by Wham, most lindy people will refuse to dance to it, while I personally enjoy doing ECS or jive to it. Ditto that with quickstep vs. lindy.

The speed aspect is also important, as it has already been discussed.

Yup. Lindy dancers are very particular about what they'll dance to. ECS, not so much. Maybe it's the franchise influence? :roll: :wink: Edit: and are you talking about the infamous swung versus unswung music? Hmm. I wonder if there are any good articles out there that sum it up. Must google. 8)

[etchuck]

Well, I certainly don't know if there are any articles about it. Just my own personal observations among people here.

The ballroomers tend to play a lot of "swing" music that really is more like Carolina shag (which given where I am, it's not a surprise). But I go to a true swing dance, I hear more jazz/big-band style music. I'm not sure why the ballroomers insist on not playing "real swing music."

[pygmalion]

Or, conversely, one could ask why swing dancers insist on defining "swing" music so narrowly. :wink: :lol: A lot depends on your perspective, not? :)

[Jmatthew]

music that doesn't swing isn't swing. :P

if the eights don't swing, it's not swing music. there's a lot of music that's amusing to Lindy to that doesn't technically swing, but that doesn't make it "swing" music. :)

[Sagitta]

music that doesn't swing isn't swing. :P

if the eights don't swing, it's not swing music. there's a lot of music that's amusing to Lindy to that doesn't technically swing, but that doesn't make it "swing" music. :)

I completely agree. I can salsa to just about any 4/4 music but that does not make it salsa music. This applies to any music. :)

[Doug]

The triples in Lindy (and in Balboa) are syncopated, not in duple rhythm like in cha-cha. I find it extremely unfun to dance a swing dance with swung footwork to music that does not swing (think waltzing to a foxtrot). Fortunately, a huge amount of jazz, not just big band but a lot that gets played at your local jazz club, swings.

pygmalion - That is why swing dancers are so particular that their music be jazz, or perhaps blues which has a shuffle rhythm and sometimes even swings.

[pygmalion]

I find it extremely unfun to dance a swing dance with swung footwork to music that does not swing (think waltzing to a foxtrot). Good analogy. Makes sense to me. The difference, though, is that waltz and foxtrot are in two different time signatures. Swung and unswung music are the same time signature and often use the same rhythms. It could even be the exact same music, as written. One is interpreted differently than the other, so you can feel it "swing." That may be the only difference.


I understand the concept of swung versus unswung, I think. I just don't understand the need to put other people down. Dance to what you like. No problem. But the fact that somebody else is dancing to what they like doesn't make them untutored or ignorant. They just have a different view. The world's big enough for everybody. 8)

[Sagitta]

I also agree with this. Yesterday night at folk dance this lady was telling me about how she had never partner danced and I was sharing with her my philosophy. As long as you and your partner are having a good time and you don't cause floor problems for others, go for it. The fact that you are dancing in a way that isn't normally done to the music being played is irrelevant. :)

[etchuck]

The musicology/technical aspect (as it has been explained to me):

I'm going to compare foxtrot music to swing music. Granted, it's a generalization but it happens that way. I like to lindy to foxtrot music when I feel it's proper... plus sometimes I think some of the best foxtrots come from the jazz/big band era too. But I digress.

Foxtrot music is 4/4 rhythm in which the downbeat (strongest beat) usually hits on the 1 and 3. Swing/Jive music if 4/4 rhythm in which the downbeat (or at least a strong beat) usually hits on the 2 and 4.

I like to play music which people can do a lot of different things. WCS/Cha-cha is a remarkable example (Smooth by Santana, I've heard as a WCS and as a cha-cha at other dances). Lindy/foxtrot also goes into potentially interchangeable in my book, depending on the dancer.

[Doug]

I understand the concept of swung versus unswung, I think. I just don't understand the need to put other people down. Dance to what you like. No problem. But the fact that somebody else is dancing to what they like doesn't make them untutored or ignorant. They just have a different view. The world's big enough for everybody. 8)

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that I was putting anyone down. And I certainly didn't say that anyone was ignorant because they don't dance to my music of choice. I simpliy said that I personally found it unfun to dance swung footwork to nonswinging music, not that it was "wrong". I know that a number of others dance swing dances to Rock 'n Roll and have a great time. I commented to you specifically only because you had raised the issue of how narrowly some swing dancers defined swinging music.

The data that I was trying to provide, and perhaps not known to all on the forum, was that the triples in both Lindy & Balboa, but especially Lindy, are indeed swung.

And that was actually the point of the comparison to waltzing to a foxtrot. The point that I was trying to make is that it is not just that the music is not styistically "correct", but moreover that the timing of music in duple rhythm does not align with the timing of the dance if you are swinging your triples. No big deal. But it does explain why Lindy Hoppers are generally so pickey about their music. And that question, it seemed to me, had been raised but perhaps not fully answered.

And don't even get me started on Balboa. I DJ nationally at Balboa events and "acceptable" bal music must not only swing, but must also have a drive/pulse that is very difficult to quantify, but heaven help you if you spin a tune without the proper feeling!

[pygmalion]

Sorry. I didn't think you were putting anyone down, but lots of folks do. You've probably read through some swing boards out there, as I have, and you've heard some of the things that get said. :(

Actually, I do appreciate the clarification in terms of lindy and balboa, especially. That helps me understand where others may be coming from better. 8) And you're right. Waltz just doesn't fit foxtrot. Square peg; round hole. Maybe I should learn something about balboa and its music, so I can hear the difference between :"square" and "round."

[etchuck]

I have nothing against balboa, and some people around here are really getting into it. There was an all-balboa weekend in my old digs of Cleveland, and apparently a lot of people had a great time.

If you want to think music, think quickstep tempo, place a couple chest-to-chest, and dance really close. I doubt that's the only set of steps you do in bal, but that's the basic step. If done right, the footwork is really cool to watch, but then again... for me so is quickstep.

Regardless, I'm going to need some time to get into balboa as a dance. That and a partner. ;)

[Doug]

...snip... You've probably read through some swing boards out there, as I have, and you've heard some of the things that get said. :(

We are sorta off topic here, but I do know what you mean. Many of the Lindy Hoppers are 20-somethings, and many of those still possess the fitness, abilities and arrogance of youth.

In my case, my goal is to dance adequately well with my wife to music that I enjoy in a manner consistant with my middle-aged body, and to have a great time while doing so. I am in no position to be critical of other's dance or music choices! In fact, I am often somewhat jealous of the abilities of those I see dancing differently than I and to music other than mine. You will probably never know how many times I have viewed "The Tango Lesson" nor long I tried to look like a latin dancer before I simply decided "This is too hard!!"

[pygmalion]

...snip... You've probably read through some swing boards out there, as I have, and you've heard some of the things that get said. :(

We are sorta off topic here, but I do know what you mean. Many of the Lindy Hoppers are 20-somethings, and many of those still possess the fitness, abilities and arrogance of youth.



LOL! That leaves me out. I'm actually more fit now than I was in my twenties, but the arrogance I've left behind. And the abilities I've traded in for "experience." :shock: :lol: :lol:

[d nice]

Defining swing "narrowly"? Come now, surely defining music by ensuring it actually has the musical structure the music style and dance style were named after is not a narrow definition. That is like saying well bolero music is good to salsa to or why don't people rhumba to merengue, they are all "latin" after all. :D

The rhythm is important, if you aren't swinging your steps you aren't doing the dance right, if the music doesn't swing then you are forced to either abondon the number one defining element of a dance, its rhythm, or you ignore the music... since the point of dancing is to dance to/with/express the music... well that doesn't really make much sense either does it?

[d nice]

NO, it is wrong, no hedging, no sparing of people's feelings. It is wrong. Does that mean they can't have fun? Nope. Does that mean that they need someone to come up and correct them? Hell NO. Does that mean they are doing the dance right? Again, no.

Dancing a swing dance without swinging, is as wrong as dancing off beat to the music.

[Jmatthew]

Good analogy. Makes sense to me. The difference, though, is that waltz and foxtrot are in two different time signatures. Swung and unswung music are the same time signature and often use the same rhythms. It could even be the exact same music, as written. One is interpreted differently than the other, so you can feel it "swing." That may be the only difference.

This actually happens a lot. There's lots and lots of jazz/swing numbers that are identical except for one band makes it swing, and the other doesn't.

I know this is slightly off topic, but someone else brought it up, so it's there fault...

Balboa Music... my feel for it is that the difference between the odd and even beats in good Bal music is less musically different than the odd and even beats in swing...i.e. the "high" note is less "higher" than the low note (to the point of almost but not quite being indiscernable in balboa...)

Am I on track? We don't have any amazing Balboa dancers around here, let alone Balboa DJ's, but that seems to be the stuff people bal too... :) Frankly as long as people are dancing to it I'm happy, but my compulsive perfectionist side wants to know if the theory is on target or not... :)

[pygmalion]

Here's a cool article on this topic. It calls the bands like Glenn Miller, etc, "sweet" bands and the bands like Jimmy Luncefort, etc, "swing" bands or "hot" bands. The article also talks about distinctions between the different types of big bands, and alludes to the fact that many in the general public made no distinction. Many people, even then, when this music was contemporary, called them all swing bands. It's interesting, the stuff you learn in google.

http://www.smallsjazz.com/swing/index.shtml

As a totally irrelevant aside, it seems I was raised listening to some of the best. My mom used to play some serious big band music all the time I was growing up. It never occured to me I'd ever hear the name Jimmy Luncefort again. :roll: 8)

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and according to that article, another confusing element is that the "sweet" bands played some jazz. And the "swing" bands played some ballads and other non-swinging tunes. So the line was pretty fuzzy for your average Joe. :?

[bjp22tango]

That drives me crazy too R, especially when I know the song. I want to go faster or slower, but the song just isn't right because it has been artifically fixed. :headwall:

This isn't just with tempo adjusting DJ's. Try getting excited about having a fast dance to a live band, only to find out they have adjusted the tempo down about 50%. It just about kills you. Your body wants to move to the tempo it KNOWS it should be dancing to, only to have to dance like moving through water :shock: :evil: ARGHHHHH

[pygmalion]

I hate that, too. Bands adjust tempos in either direction, but you're right. They often slow things down. (Maybe so the guitarist can keep up with those difficult riffs? :twisted: )