Ballroom dance in a hub versus the boondocks

[pygmalion]

I live in the boondocks, I admit. Meaning, I live in an area that is fairly remote from the power structure and "real" happenings in ballroom. yet, there are a couple of pros here who are seriously engaged in the ballroom "real world." So the question occurred (sp?) to me. What are the relative advantages and disadvantages, if any, of learning ballroom in a major ballroom "hub" versus somewhere far away from the ballroom epicenter?

[Chris Stratton]

Well, I think the advantages of a true 'hub' are pretty obvious - top coaches, lots of local competition, larger pool of people to look for partners in and social dance with, etc.

The downsides are a bit more subtle - I think for most mortals it would be a question of how well they can progress while nothing more than one face in the crowd. For example, are you the kind of person who has to have the most popular teacher even if they barely know your name? Or are you willing to look around and find someone respected, who can help you, and who will make your a priority of theirs? Can you deal with always being held out of the finals by local competition, always being in the shadow of others from your studio, etc? And while it's probably easier to find a partner, their's a greater risk of losing the one you have should one of the ever-present more advanced dancers break up with their partner and start to woo yours.

I don't know if the US has any true hubs besides NYC. Boston is something in between - big enough to have possiblities, but still small enough to feel very limiting.

Another factor of course to consider is where you'd rather live... Do you prefer to drive to work/store/lessons, or to take the subway, not be able to have a car, and have to rent/fly/bum rides to comps?

[Sagitta]

I live in the boondocks too and as a result my ballroom has stagnated. I don't want to spend a fortune on lessons when I don't have the opportunity to enjoy the skills that I've learned often socially. I've decided to work on those dances which I can use socially on a regular basis. That is street latin and AT. Both have regular weekly dances etc in Ithaca. I also hope to do a little swing. It is only during the academic semesters, fall and sping, that there are enough ballroom dances in our area. I'm content with this for now.

The advantage of being in the boondocks is that it can be a really friendly place, since you know the dancing regulars, instructors etc. More so then a major hub, where you are just a face in the crowd. :)

[Hank]

My experience from merely visiting hubs is that although they have a multitude of dance opportunities, I wouldn't take advantage of them on a regular basis because they are too hard to get to. If I have to commute 45 minutes from work in Manhattan to home in Queens, I'm not going to do another 45 minute commute to Brooklyn for a dance lesson. So, I would find a places in Queens to dance. All the opportunities in Jersey City, Yonkers, and Mt. Vernon might as well be on the moon because I won't go to them on a regular basis. So, for me, dancing in a hub would be no better than dancing in the boonies.

[mamboqueen]

I kind of agree with you, Hank. I live about 30-40 minutes outside of Boston, but I really wouldn't be hardpressed to go in when there are several really good places closer. Having said that, Boston is not as easy to get into for me because of the Big Dig and now with the Democratic Convention coming, it's just a nightmare.

Part of this for me is because I have a family and I can make it to my studio in less than 30 minutes, so it doesn't take quite as much time away from them.

I used to live in north Jersey and when I go back to visit next, I plan to visit the Battista studio. They look pretty good. I'd also love to go to Ed Simon's place.

[Larinda McRaven]

Most people around the country consider us "one of those NYC couples", especially those further west where all of the east coast seem to blur into one general region. However we are definatley not a NY couple. And we like it that way.

All of the teachers in NY struggle somewhat for work, even the very top echelons. But besides that, there is no privacy, the flip side to what Chris stated. Here in CT we can work and experiment and there is not another single couple or person who is "in the loop" to see us or care. The moment we walk into NY/NJ to train everyone knows who we worked with, what we worked on, and for how long, what we couldn't accomplish. One time we worked with a rather contraversial person/coach, and the moment we stepped on the floor with them, I looked around and saw all sorts of people whipping out cell phones to tattle on us. And there are world caliber couples in NYC that have told me they feel this way also, they have to try to find places to hide in order to do things without constant scrutiny.

We still need NYC and the visiting coaches that come through, and we go in a minimum of once a week, but are even more thankful that we don't work in a fishbowl.

[mamboqueen]

Excellent points, Larinda. I guess being at the level I'm at, I don't have to worry much about spys and clandestine cell phone calls. And I'm sure the jealousy, backstabbing and other petty qualities come out the higher up the ladder you are. It's too bad people can't just appreciate other people's work.

You're in Enfield, right? Weren't some of your students at A la carte? I seem to remember seeing it in the book.

[robin]

I think if you want to compete at the top level you have to be able to get to good teachers without too much hassle. But at that level "without too much hassle" could still be a 3 hour drive or so... seeing you might only go to a teacher like that once a week for 2 hours.

In the much lower spheres that I occupy, it's just nice to be able to go and watch good dancers and to have the choice between several good teachers. I live an hour's drive from london and occasionally go to watch a competition/workshop/show. Both Chris and Hazel and Tim and Jo have actually done shows at a local ball (in Oxford) which is only about 10 pounds to get in, so it's very cheap and easy to get to see some of the best dancers in the world.

But other than for inspiration i think you can develop your dancing just as well when you're out in the sticks, so long as you have one teacher that's good for you, a good partner, and a space you can practice. It's more fun when there's lots of other dancers around, but not necessary...

[etchuck]

For me, it's a question of critical mass. My area isn't exactly a hotbed of ballroom dancing, but there is enough interest in this area that we have a ballroom dance going on at least once a week. The community is small enough that at least to me no one feels too competitive and everyone seems fairly supportive. On the other hand, there are disadvantages where everyone knows your name too.

Would I want more world-class dancers in this area? Sure. I'd also love to have an English-style ballroom. But right now, I think there's still more we have to do to make this activity more prominent.

[Sagitta]

I agree with you Robin. You do only need one good teacher and a partner to practice to get good at ballroom dancing, but somehow that isn't enough for me. I need to be able to go out social dancing at least once a week, and that critical mass, as etchuck mentioned, just isn't there all year around. Unfortunately, my interest is not strong enough to help get it there.

[Chris Stratton]

Now that there are some other replies in the thread, there are a number of things I could add to my earlier post.

In terms of social dancing what you study, I'm not really sure that even in NY City one could count on being able to show up alone and get in some good standard or smooth with other people who just happen to be there. There are technically skilled people in NY who social dance of course, and you do run into them at dances, but there aren't enough of them to cover all the venues any given weekend night. So if you want to be sure of having a good time you have to coordinate with others in advance - same as out in the boonies.

If you are at the level where you have to have specifically qualified teachers, then pretty much the only way to avoid a work-lesson-home commute is to move one of your home or workplace close to where you plan to dance. From my point of view, commutes in Boston are actually a lot worse than in NY - there we'd just take the train from Queens (where my partner lived) into Manhattan, where both her work and our usual studio destination were - sure, it could take an hour, but it's not necessarily as useless time as sitting in a car is. I'm somewhat of the opion that if you have to work outside a city during the day, it may actually be better to live inside it close to your home studio, so that your car commute is against the rush and you don't have a long trip home after a late practice.

Another thing is that hubs are not monolithic. We primary trained at a well respected, but somewhat off-the-beaten-path studio in NY that provided a very supportive climate and a fair degree of privacy. I think that if we had continued and started taking lessons with bigger-ticket people elsewhere in town, we still would have spent a lot of time in the same little studio - for practice, for additional lessons, and for the peace, quiet, and support of 'home'. I'm asking myself if it really mattered if that studio was actually in Manhattan vs. two hours away, and I think my conclusion is that it did, because we were still early and tenative in a lot of things - not the least of which was our partnership. For a yet more serious couple able to accomplish substantially more independently between coachings, Larinda's approach of being at least once a week convenient to NY seems to make a lot of sense.

[Warren J. Dew]

In terms of social dancing what you study, I'm not really sure that even in NY City one could count on being able to show up alone and get in some good standard or smooth with other people who just happen to be there. There are technically skilled people in NY who social dance of course, and you do run into them at dances, but there aren't enough of them to cover all the venues any given weekend night. So if you want to be sure of having a good time you have to coordinate with others in advance - same as out in the boonies.
Interesting. This was not my experience six or eight years ago when I was partnerless and visiting NYC frequently. I was somewhat picky about which venues to go to, though.

For International Standard, I'm not actually sure anywhere other than around London actually qualifies as a hub for people who are sufficiently advanced.

[Chris Stratton]

It's certainly possible I went to the wrong places in NY and hit the Ballroom on 5th International Social on an off night. There were extra standard leaders, but if I remember correctly (and I really hope I'm not overlooking someone) my then partner was the only moderately serious standard follower there for most of the evening.

How does social dancing in Boston today compare to what it was like when you were sampling NY?

[Warren J. Dew]

Well, the places I tend to go in Boston now are much better for couples and groups than for singles. I hadn't discovered them back then - I'm not sure they existed - but they wouldn't have helped back then anyway.

[Chris Stratton]

Well, the places I tend to go in Boston now are much better for couples and groups than for singles.

That was my impression of the places we went when I was in NY too - they weren't that different from socials in Boston in this respect. Of course you never get a true picture of what it's like to show up without a partner by showing up with one...

[Kitty]

It's certainly possible I went to the wrong places in NY and hit the Ballroom on 5th International Social on an off night. There were extra standard leaders, but if I remember correctly (and I really hope I'm not overlooking someone) my then partner was the only moderately serious standard follower there for most of the evening

I went to ballroom on fifth social once and was very impressed with the quality of dancing. There were at least 4 advanced (that is way way above mine and my partner's level) standard followers there, and 4 or 5 leaders.
However, I too thought the place had problems: it was crowded so it was impossible to dance smooth and some standard dances.

[KevinL]

I live in the boondocks, I admit.

No Pygmalion, you only _think_ you live in the boondocks. Come visit Vermont sometime, and then you'll see what the Boondocks are like! In my opinion, if there is a ballroom (open more than one day a week) within an hour of where you live you are not in the boondocks yet.

Kevin

[pygmalion]

LOL! Good point, Kevin. It's all in one's perspective, I guess. :wink: :D

[Chris Stratton]

I went to ballroom on fifth social once and was very impressed with the quality of dancing. There were at least 4 advanced (that is way way above mine and my partner's level) standard followers there, and 4 or 5 leaders.
However, I too thought the place had problems: it was crowded so it was impossible to dance smooth and some standard dances.

At the risk of turning this into the classic about blind men describing an elephant, I thought the space was fine and the attendance lacking.

The studio is after all in Manhattan, and as far as I know, pillars are going to be a fact of life in any piece of suborbital real estate in that city. What I think is nice about Ballroom on 5th is that someone who is clearly a standard dancer looked at what they had to work with, and figured out how to make the best of it. As a result, what you have is an actual, complete, uninterrupted long wall to work with. That's a valuable enough asset in a dense city that the fact that it's narrower than an ideal ballroom is something I'm more than willing to live with.

[Kitty]

I went to ballroom on fifth social once and was very impressed with the quality of dancing. There were at least 4 advanced (that is way way above mine and my partner's level) standard followers there, and 4 or 5 leaders.
However, I too thought the place had problems: it was crowded so it was impossible to dance smooth and some standard dances.

At the risk of turning this into the classic about blind men describing an elephant, I thought the space was find and the attendance lacking.

I wish I went there on the same evening when you did. I'd have more space to dance, and you'd have... well... me:-) to dance with.