Yankee Classic

[Warren J. Dew]

Just got back from show night.

One thing I've found over the years is that some couples look better in competition than in shows, and others look better in shows. Chris and Hazel definitely look even better in a show than they do in competition - despite having seen them in competition several times, I now realize I've never really seen how well they could dance.

In particular, Chris and Hazel look even better doing open work than they look in closed dance position. I've seen a lot of International style shows where that hasn't been true.

[Pacion]

For those on the fringes, what are their surnames please :D

[Chris Stratton]

Christopher Hawkins and Hazel Newberry

[mamboqueen]

I didn't make it.

Any results????

[Chris Stratton]

Any results????

Chris & Hazel won.

[Warren J. Dew]

I think I liked their waltz best, though the quickstep and viennese waltz were also fantastic. I liked Chris' viennese outfit the best - the one he got a girl from the audience to strip off at the end of the dance.

[pygmalion]

Strip off? :shock: :D You must, absolutely must, give details. :wink:

[mamboqueen]

how's about latin?

[Chris Stratton]

It's interesting that 12 hours later I have absolutely no memory of the waltz from Chris & Hazel's show. I think the tango was the most informative for me, because it was a much lighter look than the (for lack of a better word) Italian-style tango I mostly get to see.

I'm glad they started to foxtrot with such a classic basic sequence... I'm just upset with myself that I was watching their feet in the feather. What was I expecting to see, a tardy toe release? Granted, they were moving almost directly towards me, so some of the more interesting things would have been harder to see clearly, but I could have at least tried. I also wished I'd caught how they handled the three step. I was suprised by the degree of slowing (not quite hesitation) at the top of some steps in the foxtrot, and want to find out more about that concept. Watching live performance for details is a skill I've yet to learn... you can't rewind and frame-by-frame it like with video.

I guess my reaction is that I would have rathered see them in competition than at a show, because while a lot of the show material was enjoyable and exciting, I didn't learn as much in the way of personally applicable information from seeing them apart (although they are simply amazing dancers in excellent shape) than I did during the half of the time they were doing traditional things in hold. I don't need to be sold on the idea that this kind of dancing is fun... I want to learn how to do it. But that's just the price I pay for being too cheap to go to Blackpool this year.

[Warren J. Dew]

I believe that may have been a slower than normal foxtrot, resulting in a slightly different action on the rise.

Sounds like you were specifically looking for technique for International style figures. Me, once I saw how good their open work was, I looked at as American style. I hope that the smooth competitors that were between rounds were watching carefully too.

Latin? Oh yeah, there was latin too. Michael Malitovski and Joanna Leunis won the pro Latin.

[Chris Stratton]

It's very true that I was watching from an international technique perspective, because some of the most interesting topics to me right now have as much to do with how two bodies move together as with any other aspect of dancing.

To try to take the show as inspiration for smooth has the risk of not being able to actually execute the ideas well enough. The couple I most enjoyed in the smooth semi for what seemed like nice classic choreography with good presentation and costuming didn't make the final. While two of the couples in the final who did substantial stretches of completely closed work probably should have joined the majority in staying further apart so as not to reveal their difficulty in maintaining a stable hold. I guess in a way that means that the couples I hadn't eliminted from the top spots in my mind actually were those wearing tolerable costumes and doing relatively simple, well presented open work - which was about as close to the show as any of the smooth competitors seemed capable of approaching. (I haven't seen the full results, but apparently the judges had a rather different view of things)

[Larinda McRaven]

I saw limited bits of the show as I was helping Hazel changing her costumes in between numbers.

From the pieces I did see it was nice and clean (obviously). But to compare a show by the world champions to a round of smooth competitors barely out of the rising star catagory themselves is not entirely fair.

To try to take the show as inspiration for smooth has the risk of not being able to actually execute the ideas well enough.

The ability to have subtle choreography, or for one person to stand still for 4 meaures while your partner is away and doing something entirely far away and seperate, is not a luxury that smooth competitors have, when they are jockeying for space and attention.

I did not stay for the results of the Open but I am sure my opinion was not the same as the judges.

[Larinda McRaven]

The couple I most enjoyed in the smooth semi for what seemed like nice classic choreography with good presentation and costuming didn't make the final. While two of the couples in the final who did substantial stretches of completely closed work probably should have joined the majority in staying further apart so as not to reveal their difficulty in maintaining a stable hold.

I have a theory that if you can't present a somewhat respectble closed position then don't go there, and if you can't point your toe then you shoud leave it on the floor. Smooth affords everyone an opportunity to showcase their abilities, why anyone would constantly and for extended periods of time present choreography that showcases underdeveloped skills (relative to the level at which they compete (edited later)) is beyond me.

[Chris Stratton]

The ability to have subtle choreography, or for one person to stand still for 4 meaures while your partner is away and doing something entirely far away and seperate, is not a luxury that smooth competitors have, when they are jockeying for space and attention.

I agree some of the widely seperated stuff would have to go in a transition to a crowded floor.

But minimalist choreography - that may depend on who does it first. If a couple like Chris & Hazel were to start competing smooth, people would at least watch just because of who they are. Over time, that could change the expectations for how others seek to get attention, too. Some might see this as a rollback of recent progress in smooth - others might see it as an overdue regrounding to balance some of the more excessive current trends.

In a way, the black gowns are also a form of departure from present norms enabled by the reputation of those wearing them. But l sure hope _those_ aren't copied.

[Larinda McRaven]

Each of the black dresses were problematic not just because they were black, but because they had almost nothing in the way of ornamentation. The minimalistic approach in any color is a hard one to carry off. A black dress, if covered in stones (even jet) and with an interesting cut can stand out.

The use of black velvet is a trick of photographers. The way it absorbs the light and deadens it is what they like, so it presents a perfecty clean black background that does not reflect or compete with the subject. Black of any other fabric doesn't seem quite so dense, and therefore will look lighter (in both weight and brightness) on the floor.

[Chris Stratton]

I have a theory that if you can't present a somewhat respectble closed position then don't go there, and if you can't point your toe then you shoud leave it on the floor. Smooth affords everyone an opportunity to showcase their abilities, why anyone would constantly and for extended periods of time show qualaties that are not respectable is beyond me.

I agree with you now, though I'm not sure I would have on Friday.

Or to be more accurate, on Friday I would have said "drop everything else and fix that right now" wheras now I'm more able to acknowledge that the couples with these problems did have some valuable other traits. Traits which may be more in line with current smooth expectations.

One thing I could argue in their defense though is that unless your sole purpose in competition is to win, there is a lot to be gained learning wise by dancing the same concepts you are studying under the pressure of competition conditions. If a couple doesn't have a winning reputation to uphold, and has few students in the audience who would specifically look for and identify an issue like this, then it may make sense to treat some aspects of competition as a progress check on their training program. While in the even lower-risk case of non-championship amateur couples I'd argue that putting learning ahead of (a long shot at) winning almost always makes sense.

[Pacion]

SD on another thread:

I'd be happy to do the dinner thing Friday. And I hope that everyone else comes up and introduces themselves too! Especially in the evenings I should be easy to pick out... I'll have my camera rig with me and I'll be lurking by the edges of the floor.

So, did anyone spot this lurker :lol:

[Larinda McRaven]

on Friday I would have said "drop everything else and fix that right now"
:D :D :D


...other traits. Traits which may be more in line with current smooth expectations.
Does this entirely matter, current smooth expectations is almosty no closed hold, a measure or two maximum. Based on that assertion no one would be getting closed, good or bad, and we all would look like cirque du soliel performers...

[Larinda McRaven]

So, did anyone spot this lurker :lol:

I had a nice time meeting and chatting with SDSalsaguy, as well as seeing Chris and saying hello. I did not see or meet anyone else but I was only there for a limited time Saturday.

[DancePoet]

I met SDsalsaguy on Friday. We had a very good chat before the evenings events. I also saw him pop in and view the smooth events I was part of in the afternoon.

I took 1st in all the events I entered, but unfortunately didn't have any competition to measure myself and partner against. Kind of a bummer to spend time working towards a major comp like Yankee, but not have any competition. I'll be moving up out of the Pre bronze catagory and into Bronze the next time I compete with tango, and might even move out of foxtrot Newcomer, skip Pre-Bronze, and move into Bronze immediately. I'll likely start competing in Waltz, too.

I did achieve my three goals. I showed up very early, inorder to warm up completely, and stayed relaxed throughout my events. It was my most enjoyable competition experience despite the lack of competition.

[Warren J. Dew]

Strip off? :shock: :D You must, absolutely must, give details. :wink:
Well, at the end of the viennese waltz, Chris was talking about how he was jealous of Hazel because Hazel had some incredibly cute babe helping her change, and he didn't have anyone at all to help him. So he asked for help from the audience. Since he was wearing a fancy 17th century French influenced outfit from back when men were allowed to dress up, there was no lack of volunteers.

He couldn't find anyone quite as incredibly cute as Hazel's assistant, but he did at least find a blonde. After a brief but entertaining discussion about african wildlife management, he had her remove his lace cravat, which she twirled in the air a few times, then tossed into the audience, where several women tried to execute perfect diving catches for it. Chris' assistant then removed Chris' vest at his request. Then Chris asked her to rip his shirt off!

Uh, this is a family oriented forum, right? I think I'd better stop the description here. Let's just say that Chris was good at making the intermissions between the dances an entertaining part of the show.

[Chris Stratton]

You left out the part where he insisted she do it over with proper hip action...

[pygmalion]

That's hilarious. :lol: :lol:

[mamboqueen]

Dance Poet - Kinda stinks that you didn't have any competition; as nervous as you get about competing, it doesn't seem like a full-fledged win if you're not up against someone, but you did get some very good experience.

I'm glad I didn't compete. I heard there was a woman competing in BRONZE that had competed in GOLD previously. I'da been in a little trouble!

I also heard from a couple of people that the door people were pretty rude. Considering what people pay to be in this competition, you'd expect a little better. And the person who told me is one of the nicest, most easygoing people I know.

[Angelo]

Each of the black dresses were problematic not just because they were black, but because they had almost nothing in the way of ornamentation. The minimalistic approach in any color is a hard one to carry off. A black dress, if covered in stones (even jet) and with an interesting cut can stand out.

The use of black velvet is a trick of photographers. The way it absorbs the light and deadens it is what they like, so it presents a perfecty clean black background that does not reflect or compete with the subject. Black of any other fabric doesn't seem quite so dense, and therefore will look lighter (in both weight and brightness) on the floor.

Its funny that this topic should come up as I seem to have a sort of fetish for black ballgowns. If a lady is wearing one I will tend to watch her much more often than the other ladies even if she is not the best dancer on the floor. The black gowns didn't seem to hamper anyone's results on saturday night, as the couples who had ladies in black gowns placed first and second, if I remember the results correctly.

[Angelo]

how's about latin?

In the Pro Latin, Michael Malitowski and Joanna Leunis ran away with it. 2nd place went to Maxim Chmerkovsky and Elena Grinenko, 3rd was Andrei Gavriline and Elena Kryuchkova. Chmerkovsky/Grinenko took 2nd in all dances except rumba where they took third. Gavriline/Kryuchkova took 2nd in the Rumba

[pygmalion]

I'm glad I didn't compete. I heard there was a woman competing in BRONZE that had competed in GOLD previously. I'da been in a little trouble!


Is that allowed? HOw does that work? You just enter whatever level you want? :shock: :?

[mamboqueen]

Someone explained it here before. Something to do with who governs the competition and points being scored, etc. It's very unfortunate and demoralizing to us who struggle to put our best bronze forward only to be squashed by someone who's been dancing at a higher level for a long time. I don't know what real satisfaction a person gets out of that.

[DanceAm]

Maybe she competed Gold and got her but kicked and decided to go back to Bronze.

Competing at a higher level doesn't mean you cannot go back, but winning a level can prohibit you from competing at that level or lower again. I know Laura has said before that the point system for NDCA is very similar to USABDA so she could probably explain NDCA's rules without looking them up.

USABDA's point system is inherently slow to force individuals up and I am sure the NDCA's is as well. These are also self governed systems that can easily be abused. Scholarships at lower levels tend to bring higher level dancers back down. And many that dance down for that reason are usually within the rules. Plus, at higher levels, you may find very small heats and a win in a heat by yourself is a very hollow victory, not to mention, it really doesn't count as a proficiency point in USABDA either.

What is needed is a Central database for competitors that track the points and levels competed. I don't believe either system has one in place but many volunteers in USABDA are actively persuing this.

So what is legal and what is good sportsmanship are two different things IMHO. If someone competes at too high a level, they should be able to move down to a level where they have a chance. If someone doesn't want to wait to officially point out of a level, they are more than within their rights to move up.

I think the way the Pro's do it is rather fair with regard to Rising Star. If you win Rising Star at a comp, you can't dance Rising Star at that comp again. If you win National Rising Star Championships, you can't dance Rising Star anywhere in the US. (I am aware other rules apply as well.)

[mamboqueen]

Maybe she competed Gold and got her but kicked and decided to go back to Bronze.


Okay...there's always SILVER!!!

Now I'm really glad I didn't compete because I was going to shoot for a bronze scholarship and that, to me, is the most unfair instance of sandbagging -- where it shouldn't be allowed at all! From what I heard, there weren't enough people in some or most of the scholarship events and the people who won got trophies instead of the money. Kinda stinks.

[Laura]

I know Laura has said before that the point system for NDCA is very similar to USABDA so she could probably explain NDCA's rules without looking them up.

For Amateur couples I think it's similar, but if you're talking about Pro/Am, there is no point system in the NDCA. All there is is a "guideline" that if someone is contested and wins their event, that they not enter that level event again at that same competition in subsequent years. So, there's not even a real rule about it. The USDSC has some specific rules for that competition, but those are the only ones I know of when it comes to Pro/Am.

What is needed is a Central database for competitors that track the points and levels competed. I don't believe either system has one in place but many volunteers in USABDA are actively persuing this.

Really? I'm so glad that someone is finally working on this for USABDA!

[DanceAm]

We will see.

[Warren J. Dew]

No one has discussed the Friday results yet.

Giampierro Giannico & Ieva Pauksena won the professional standard. Their quickstep looked as good as at Blackpool; I like the fact that they use as much swingy stuff as jumpy stuff.

I saw a lot of high, tense arm lines in "World amateur" (IDSF) category, even more so among the overseas competitors than the U.S. competitors, so I don't think this is primarily a U.S. affectation. In fact, based on not seeing tense arms in the professional category, I think it's not a U.S. affectation at all.

[DancePoet]

Mamboqueen:

Yep, good experience, yet mainly because of me not being overly nervous. I felt prepared, warmed up, and maintained a relaxed attitude. The wins seemed less then what they could be against competition, and I wonder if my nervousness may have been heighten with competition. I went in figuring that since this was a big event, then competition would be likely. I was disappointed because it would be nice to have a measurement of where I was compared to others. Oh well.

[Chris Stratton]

Having your performance validated by scoring well against others in the judges' eyes feels good, but the more comps you go to the more you start to wonder how ultimately usefull any given group of judges opinions' really are. My usual fallback after I get tired of trying to understand what the results _mean_ is to evalute the video against objective standards. From that standpoint, the greatest problem of a comp like Yankee may not be the lack of competition, but rather the fact that you have to pay their official video service to tape you, rather than trade this duty with a friend. It's probably worth budgeting this expense upfront in the cost of attending the comp, because the tape at least gives you some feedback you can do something usefull with - no matter who else does or doesn't show up, and does or doesn't happen to hit upon what is important to a given set of judges.

But I won't deny that defeating the competition (especially if there is enough for multiple rounds) does feel good.

[DancePoet]

Chris:

I like your ideas. Video would be best for reviewing my efforts, yet I am aware of some of the mistakes I made even without the video.

Also, if the judges had really seen one of my six events in it's entirety they would have seen me really mess up in one of my foxtrot efforts while dancing in one corner of the floor. Probably would have warranted a 2nd place even in an uncontested event. Additionally, this experience makes me wonder how much is really being viewed and missed by the judges when they can't possibly see all couples on the floor at the same time.

I suspect that last comment shows how little I know about the judging process, and I wonder where best to learn more on how the judges do their work.

Ironically, when starting dance lessons I did not initially see myself competing, and I feel like it is not what will keep me dancing either.

[Chris Stratton]

My experience has been that many judges are apparently quite willing (especially at beginner through intermediate levels) to forgive an isolated mistake if you are able to efficiently resume dancing well. I've also found watching beginner events that it's not really that hard to see the potential in a couple that has some promising fundamental qualities, even if they are suffering from some pretty obvious temporary problems.

On competition... I figured if I was going to try dancing, I wanted to get tolerably good at it quickly... and competition training seemed the best way to do that. It sort of spiraled out of control from there ;-)

[robin]

Also, if the judges had really seen one of my six events in it's entirety they would have seen me really mess up in one of my foxtrot efforts while dancing in one corner of the floor. Probably would have warranted a 2nd place even in an uncontested event.

How can you come second if the event is uncontested? In fact, why would you even bother having an event with 1 competitor?

I was at a local comp on Sunday where the novice latin only had 1 entry. The couple was simply asked to enter a higher level (and awarded the 1st place in the novice by default as well).

[mamboqueen]

How can you come second if the event is uncontested? In fact, why would you even bother having an event with 1 competitor?



They don't *have* to give you first place if they didn't feel you danced well. I don't think a lot of judge's do that - especially to beginners; certainly wouldn't generate a lot of good will.

The competition I went to in May had TONS of uncontested events. Almost all of the gold-level dancers were uncontested. These people end up paying to do an exhibition. Why do they do it? Well, they're not going to refund your money, that's for sure. Also, I think there are people entering up until the very end.

[DanceAm]

Uncontested events are still a good way to keep yourself in the judges eye. I agree it seems like a waste of money and time. I had a comp organizer apologize to me for having to dance in an uncontested heat with a promise that she would personally make sure there would be someone else next year. I actually didn't expect much competition, but it was so close to home and so many big judges were going to be there, we went ahead and did it.

I have seen many take second in an uncontested event because they were off time. Being off time for most of a dance will usually result in a second. However, it is the man's responsiblity to keep time, so a Pro/am event with a woman student usually precludes her from getting a 2nd, because it not her fault.

[DancePoet]

Robin:

I was in an uncontested Am/Am Newcomer Cha-Cha event at a competiton earlier this year where my partner and I received a second place award for being off the beat of the music.

It does happen!