Black Gowns (and other ways to shoot yourself in the foot)

[Chris Stratton]

Two couples in the pro smooth at Yankee had essentially black gowns.

I really have no idea how they danced, because I found them essentially unwatcheable. Maybe if there had been no one else in the room, but I found the black skirts to be just so far outside of my conception of dancing that any of the other couples would pull my attention away from them.

Also, while black velvet has a nice texture that might work in some other settings, it really does not work next to a man in wool (or wool-like) evening wear. The velvet ends up looking luxuriously deep black, but that makes the suit look flat and even faded in constrast.

I'm going to have to change my previous position: I don't care if you _are_ Karen Hilton, you still must not wear black.

For the guys, I can't say I think the extra-long and Mandarin-style jackets really help things at all. With or without arms, they still have the problem that they are either tight over the hips so that they bunch up in the lower back, or vented in which case they flop around oddly. Don't wear tails if you don't want to - but realize that the primary reason why a tailsuit is such a practical garment for dancing is not the tails, but rather that the jacket itself is short enough that it doesn't get in the way. I find it kind of odd that in the style which insists it needs more freedom of movement, we're now seeing clothing that is even more restrictive than that worn in the stuffy conservative style.

[Warren J. Dew]

On the other hand, the two black gowns did place #1 and #2 ... though I agree, if they hadn't been on a couple of the best dancers on the floor, they would have had trouble making the cut.

I will note that the problem of breaking up the line between the man and the lady is not as severe in American style, where the partners are apart much of the time.

I saw a major contrast between the tuxedo jackets in the rising star on friday versus the open on saturday. On friday, nearly all the men wore tuxedo jackets, but most looked pretty much off the rack. They often bunched up in the small of the back when the men made lines, which was unattractive.

The tuxedo jacket variants on the top men on saturday were cut looser and had vents, which allowed them to move nicely without bunching up. I didn't mind them on the top smooth couples, nor on Christopher Hawkins in the dance or two where he wore one.

I would agree with preferring a nice tailsuit. Some of the current tailsuits, that are designed to hide the man's back line, I don't consider very attractive, though.

[Laura]

My Standard coach always says that black is difficult for women in Standard: she ends up looking half again as wide as she really is because when she fades into the guy she has her body plus half of his. I probably didn't explain that very well but I'm sure you know what I mean.

That said, what about for those of us with MUCH less (or I should really say, 'more') than desirable figures? If I went out in a bright color I would look not unlike a Jelly Belly jelly bean....

[Chris Stratton]

But black is not the only non-bright color! The blue velvet gown Laura made worked well not only in her picture , but also on the Bostonian she sold it to.

My ex-partner and I did come close to the 'blending problem' with our legs on video in a few situations with the moderately dark blue lycra gown we made her, but there was a enough color difference to visually assign upper body bits to the right partner.

In contrast, the problem I had watching the black gowns at Yankee is that there just wasn't anything in the couple that filled my expectation to see a ballgown. I probably could have accepted both partners in black warmup outfits more easily than I could mentally identify these 'right shape, wrong color' objects as ballgown-clad ladies.

[pygmalion]

My Standard coach always says that black is difficult for women in Standard: she ends up looking half again as wide as she really is because when she fades into the guy she has her body plus half of his. I probably didn't explain that very well but I'm sure you know what I mean.

That said, what about for those of us with MUCH less (or I should really say, 'more') than desirable figures? If I went out in a bright color I would look not unlike a Jelly Belly jelly bean....

Are there ways to work the lines (of the garment, not the dancer) so as to have a slimming effect without having the blending-in-with-the-guy problem that dark colors might cause? I guess that may depend on the shapes of ballgowns that are in style. :? Or perhaps it's better to get a gown not quite on the cutting edge of the latest fashion, if it's more flattering to a generous figure? *shrug*

[Pacion]

I would agree with preferring a nice tailsuit. Some of the current tailsuits, that are designed to hide the man's back line, I don't consider very attractive, though.

What do you mean by "designed to hide the man's back line"? I am curious 8)

[Chris Stratton]

What do you mean by "designed to hide the man's back line"? I am curious 8)

Cut or even padded to conceal the lower back arch that might result from trying to force a particularly close contact with your partner.

I'm curious if the tailsuit from Saturday night is suspected of being a member of this class? It looked looser in back than some of the budget import (and homegrown) suits our team has, but that's hardly saying much.

(Pet peave of mine: guys who maintain lower back arch when their smooth partner is 10 feet out of contact)

[robin]

What's wrong with black? I've seen some fantastic black dresses in competitions. I've also seen some bad ones, but i've also seen bad white dresses and bad luminous yellow ones.

I think black can work very well on certain types of dancers. Of course there's a risk of "not being seen", so for a "quiet" partnership it's probably not a good idea, but I've seen people who looked incredibly classy in black (admittedly, usually with a lot of stones on the dress...).

It probably just depends on the style of the dancers. I'm pretty sure I've seen Alessandra (as in William Pino and Alessandra Bucciarelli) in a number of black dresses. While she *always* looks good I think that a black or dark or possibly red dress work really well with the kind of passion and intensity they show in their dancing. It would maybe look less good on someone who is more playful and floaty in style, where a light colour might work better ...

I can only find one picture of Alessandra in a completely black dress:
http://www.danceuniverse.co.kr/photo/photo_info.php?num=1668&type=m&go=go&dancer=pino&page=2

[Chris Stratton]

While I think the above example is a bit of a problem, it's not quite as black a dress. Not only the stones, but the open back - one of the big problems to my eyes is that she has a head, a back, and two hands - but no arms.

It's possible that the open back plays an important role in offsetting an otherwise black gown. But with a smooth couple, you will often see the lady's front in a way you wouldn't in standard, and if that's all black we're right back in classic problem territory.

[Larinda McRaven]

Each of the black dresses were problematic not just because they were black, but because they had almost nothing in the way of ornamentation. The minimalistic approach in any color is a hard one to carry off. A black dress, if covered in stones (even jet) and with an interesting cut can stand out.

The use of black velvet is a trick of photographers. The way it absorbs the light and deadens it is what they like, so it presents a perfecty clean black background that does not reflect or compete with the subject. Black of any other fabric doesn't seem quite so dense, and therefore will look lighter (in both weight and brightness) on the floor.

[Chris Stratton]

But with a a more sensible color choice, you only really notice the lack of stones when you put a simple dress next to a walking Swarovski advertisement...

Even something as simple as a red practice skirt worn over a matching leotard can often dominate a floor, especially if none of the stone bearing dresses are as well thought out.

[Warren J. Dew]

My Standard coach always says that black is difficult for women in Standard: she ends up looking half again as wide as she really is because when she fades into the guy she has her body plus half of his. I probably didn't explain that very well but I'm sure you know what I mean.
As a man, my primary objection to black dresses is how they make us men look. That effect works on us, too, you know!

Plus, they break up the same nice lines emphasized by a good tailsuit.

The one time I saw a black dress actually work in Standard, it was on the partner of a man with, frankly, an ugly leg line - a strong zigzag from belly to butt to knee to heel to toe. The black dress broke up the line, allowing them to place a couple places higher, albeit with a relatively inexperienced collegiate panel.

[Warren J. Dew]

Cut or even padded to conceal the lower back arch that might result from trying to force a particularly close contact with your partner.
Or a mid-back arch or any other distortion the gentleman may have in that area. Most tailsuits do this by being loose, and as a result, they also make the man look wider in the waist than they might.

If you watch the men on a typical Standard competition floor today, many will look heavy or even fat - sometimes to the point of pregnancy! That's because they are "belly pushing" - forcing their bellies forward to maintain contact - and the tailsuits are cut to fall straight down in the back, filling it in so they look fat instead of arched.

Chris, I'm not sure which tailsuit you mean, but I think nearly all recent tailsuits are cut this way.

[Chris Stratton]

Chris, I'm not sure which tailsuit you mean, but I think nearly all recent tailsuits are cut this way.

I would think that someone who is certain to get personal attention from any tailor he chooses patronize would receive a suit cut to fit his actual needs, rather than a standard cut with built in compensation for the compromise habits of joe average dancer.

But I do think some degree of looseness is necessary no matter what the guy's posture is like. My most recent tailsuit (which is actually almost a year old) is very form fitting - probably too form fitting as I gained pound or two after making it. The next one probably will be just enough looser that the front can 'float' a bit, rather than being for all effective purposes buckled on. Hopefully this will also solve the problem of the transition from fitted back to free-floating tails. (Actually, I was supposed to get the computer/sewing table cleared off today and start working on a mockup of the canvases for a new one... but somehow that never happened)

[DanceMentor]

I will definitely never wear a black ballgown! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Warren J. Dew]

I would think that someone who is certain to get personal attention from any tailor he chooses patronize would receive a suit cut to fit his actual needs, rather than a standard cut with built in compensation for the compromise habits of joe average dancer.
I think you may be mistaken. Based on my experience with half a dozen tailors, dance and otherwise, over the years, they generally take the attitude that they know everything and their customers know nothing about what style is best. If you want a different style, you have to go to a different tailor. Maybe they each only know how to cut for one style, I don't know.

Personally, the only tailsuits that I've seen, even on world champions, that I've liked well enough to try to find out who made them were the ones that Marcus Hilton wore. Someone told me that it was a Savile Row tailor whose suits started at $5000 - and this was over a decade ago. Even some world champions might balk at paying five times the normal price for a tailsuit, no matter how elegant it looked!

[Chris Stratton]

I think you may be mistaken. Based on my experience with half a dozen tailors, dance and otherwise, over the years, they generally take the attitude that they know everything and their customers know nothing about what style is best. If you want a different style, you have to go to a different tailor. Maybe they each only know how to cut for one style, I don't know.

But I would think that a suit cut for a slim gentleman with room for back arch would basically be the same as one cut for a guy with a bit of a belly. That would imply a standard add-on to some of the measurements. But if the client in fact kept his back fairly straight, I would think he'd complain that the suit was too big in front, and insist that it be taken in at the sides.

I seem to recall that the video on that other ballroom discussion site of someone from Ashmore measuring a client includes a comment that they probably won't need to pad the back for him, or at least not much.


Personally, the only tailsuits that I've seen, even on world champions, that I've liked well enough to try to find out who made them were the ones that Marcus Hilton wore. Someone told me that it was a Savile Row tailor whose suits started at $5000 - and this was over a decade ago. Even some world champions might balk at paying five times the normal price for a tailsuit, no matter how elegant it looked!

Interesting... perhaps he was shopping around for a while, as the suit with Hilton's name inside that I got to examine had a few labels which seemed to hint that it was made in Japan.

[Warren J. Dew]

But I would think that a suit cut for a slim gentleman with room for back arch would basically be the same as one cut for a guy with a bit of a belly. That would imply a standard add-on to some of the measurements. But if the client in fact kept his back fairly straight, I would think he'd complain that the suit was too big in front, and insist that it be taken in at the sides.

I don't. I think the distinguishing feature of that style, that Arthur Ashmore actually advertises as "hanging straight from the shoulders rather than following the line of the back," is that it's cut differently in the back, not just the front. Specifically, it does in fact hang straight down from the shoulders, rather than following the lines of the back - following the back would result in a slight concavity between shoulders and hips, even on someone standing with a perfectly straight spine with no back arch at all. Without that concavity in the back, the "straight from the shoulders" cut can't retain a concavity in the sides, either.

To put it another way, I think the response to your posited customer complaint would not be to take the suit in at the sides, but to cut it away more at the front. Taking it in at the sides would also result in concavity in the back and would be tantamount to an admission that the "straight from the shoulders" cut is wrong.

I will admit that the "hanging straight from the shoulders" cut has been very successful. While those tailsuits often look badly cut - for example if the man develops more or less back arch than when he was fitted - judges tend to be much more forgiving of bad tailsuits than of bad dancing, and those tailsuits are very good at hiding a back arch from even very experienced judges.

[Chris Stratton]

I guess I'm thinking that it should be possible to make a suit which still hangs from the shoulders, but follows the underlying body a bit more - not fitted, but not a black academic gown either.

[Pacion]

Personally, the only tailsuits that I've seen, even on world champions, that I've liked well enough to try to find out who made them were the ones that Marcus Hilton wore. Someone told me that it was a Savile Row tailor whose suits started at $5000 - and this was over a decade ago.

Yes, Savile Row is the creme of British tailoring. You can get cheaper suits on Savile Row but, they are 'off the rack' (are not often available - specific tailors - but still cost a lot) rather than made to measure. James Bond bought his suits from Savile Row too :wink: :lol:

[Angelo]

Its funny that this topic should come up as I seem to have a sort of fetish for black ballgowns. If a lady is wearing one I will tend to watch her much more often than the other ladies even if she is not the best dancer on the floor. The black gowns didn't seem to hamper anyone's results on saturday night, as the couples who had ladies in black gowns placed first and second, if I remember the results correctly.


My above fetish not withsatnding, I find that the costuming is a low prority in who I tend to watch and is a minor determinant in the couples placings. I'm sure everyone can recall some hideous outfits (just about anything with feathers) on championship dancers in every style.

[robin]

Tony Bailey of Brackley's is a former Savile Row tailor, and makes very nice tailsuits, but they don't cost $5000... Prices range from 600 pounds to 900 pounds depending on fabric (about 1100 to 1700 US $).

Arthur Ashmore is the other big name I can think of for dancesport tailors in the UK.

I think dancing tails have to be made to measure and really need the tailor to take measurements himself and have a fitting to make final adjustments. Tailsuits are always expensive and 600 pounds is the most i've ever spent on any item of clothing, but wearing a properly fitting tailor-made tail-suit is just fantastic ;).

[mamboqueen]

I have a black gown. It's pretty heavily stoned and fits me quite well. I wouldn't have preferred to buy a black gown, but finances dictated. This was a good purchase. I agree that I seemed to "blend" a little with my instructor, but it didn't reflect in the scores since I won my heats, but I will say that a nicely fit black gown looks better than someone wearing bright yellow who shouldn't be, due to age/body type, etc.

[pygmalion]

That's what I was getting at with my question about the "lines" of the garment itself. A la "What not to wear." Surely a gown that's a darker color and cut to flatter someone's figure must be better than a bright colored gown that shows every flaw. Is that wrong? :? *shrug*

[mamboqueen]

I agree, Jenn. I guess it all depends on *how* you want to stand out?? The "eeeek" effect is going to get you noticed, but probably with a few blanched faces!

I'd love to get a color/dress that is just perfect for me and draws the eye of the judges as soon as I get on the floor, but I'll just have to work on other ways of doing that. Like maybe toilet paper hanging out the bottom *LOL*

[Warren J. Dew]

I think dancing tails have to be made to measure and really need the tailor to take measurements himself and have a fitting to make final adjustments. Tailsuits are always expensive and 600 pounds is the most i've ever spent on any item of clothing, but wearing a properly fitting tailor-made tail-suit is just fantastic.
I'd argue the same is true for non-dance jackets. People complain about having to wear business suits because they're 'uncomfortable', but what they don't realize is that they're uncomfortable not because they're business suits, but because they're cut to fit some generic body that very few people actually match.

But yes, they're expensive, and to conveniently get the measurements and fitting with the tailor, one has to use a local tailor. That's really limiting in cities with only one or two tailors.

[Sania]

Like maybe toilet paper hanging out the bottom *LOL*

Reminds me of that Nicholas Cotton/Maria Hansen comic showdance routine at Ohio star a few years ago.

[mamboqueen]

Oh, did someone already beat me to it??? Always a day late and a dollar short!

[Elizabeth]

Just my $0.02 on black gowns.

Black is not automatically slimming. Read the guys post about the new cut of tailsuits and how they are making guys who arch there backs look fat, and remember that tailsuits are almost always black.

I've seen heavier women look good in gowns that were pale pink, pale yellow, champagne, teal blue, cobalt blue, bright red and even white. The things these dresses had in common were that they were cut well, with nice full skirts. I'd say that the key thing for anyone is to pick a dress that is cut in a way that will flatter your body type, an just pick colors that work with your coloring and will stand out on the floor and compliment your dancing.

No dress is going to fool anyone into thinking you're a size four when you're a size eight, or a size eight when you're a size twelve, or a size twelve when you're a size sixteen. Anyone who says differently is selling dresses.

[SDsalsaguy]

No dress is going to fool anyone into thinking you're a size four when you're a size eight, or a size eight when you're a size twelve, or a size twelve when you're a size sixteen. Anyone who says differently is selling dresses.
Just for the record, many of the more ethical dress vendors would say this exact same thing as well.

[pygmalion]

Good points, Elizabeth. Though, from time to time, one may see a heavier woman looking like a fuchsia sausage. :shock: :wink: In some instances, I have seen use of color shave a perceived dress size or two, but, as a rule, you're right. I think the cut of the garment is just as important as the color.

The other piece of it, though, is the self confidence. If a heavier woman feels more confident in a royal blue gown than, say, a canary yellow one, I vote for royal all the way.

Incidentally, I think cobalt blue is a nice compromise color. It's on the darker side, so you get that slimming effect if the cut is right. But it's fairly eye catching. It's also one of my favorite colors. LOL. It's a toss-up whether I'll go for cobalt or fuchsia for my next gown. Both look good on me, but I'll probably go with fuchsia. IF I lose an in or two off the hips by then. :wink: :lol:

[mamboqueen]

Well, the other factor is that there are people who are (....thinking of the most delicate way to state this...) color and fashion challenged. Some people may see a dress that they love, but it doesn't necessarily love them back. I notice this a lot with older women trying to wear things they just can't pull off. And believe me, at 41, it kills me that there are things I could wear just 5 years ago that I can't really wear now (unless I want to slave away at the gym every single day, and I just can't...so I have to trade off). For instance, in my last comp, there was a woman in her late 40's who was in "okay" shape, but chose a dress that was REALLY low cut in the back and it just didn't flatter her. Also, a woman wore a short latin number that was a leopard print. That's a tough one even for someone younger and in good shape. So, personally, I think it's always best to try to get an honest opinion or two, even if you may not like the answers you get.

[LilSammie89]

ok, so what about beginners? I'm told that if I dance in the next comp coming up (in 6 weeks!) I'm only allowed to wear a plain black dress... with no bling or anything, supposiedly because beginners aren't "worthy". But if all beginners are made to wear black, then it's the dancing and how you use the space that will get you noticed, so surely a better thing to learn? In other words we shouldn't rely on the dresses to get us noticed, but the routine instead. Of course I may be chatting nonsence, are we just talking about better dancers coz I'll be quiet then =)

[Katarzyna]

I finally get to wear a black gown to a comp this weekend :!: :!: :!: can't wait. I've been waiting for this for quite a while. Finally found one I liked too. Very excited :D :D :D

(True, it has some white on the sleaves and the hem but as far as I am concerned, I get to wear a black gown)

[Angelo]

ok, so what about beginners? I'm told that if I dance in the next comp coming up (in 6 weeks!) I'm only allowed to wear a plain black dress... with no bling or anything, supposiedly because beginners aren't "worthy". But if all beginners are made to wear black, then it's the dancing and how you use the space that will get you noticed, so surely a better thing to learn? In other words we shouldn't rely on the dresses to get us noticed, but the routine instead. Of course I may be chatting nonsence, are we just talking about better dancers coz I'll be quiet then =)


Don't worry. This whole thread was started last year and was based upon one person's opinion. It is by no means any kind of rule that one should not wear a black ballgown in competition. Others have worn them successfully in the past and I'm sure others will do so in the future. Possibly KatherineH or yourself for instance!

[Katarzyna]

Others have worn them successfully in the past and I'm sure others will do so in the future. Possibly KatherineH or yourself for instance!

I will try my best to wear the black dress well... (I will be changing into my orange one for the final or semis.. unless we don't make it, and then I can blame it on the dress :D )

Honestly though, I think black gowns can be really nice, and are worn pretty frequently. You can probably assume that most judges have eyes that are good enough to see the dancing, and not the gown. I think what you choose to wear is for yourself, and perhaps for the audience, not the judges. You match your look with how you want to express the dance. Although being well groomed and creating a right look might influence results a slightest bit...

Nothing can pull of an elegant look better than a black gown... IMHO.