Tango snobs...

[milongadicto]

There are plenty of stories, fictitious or not, in which a character ends up becoming the person he despises at the start. Napoleon, the leading pig of Orwell's famed allegory novel Animal Farm, leads a revolt against the human masters, but by the end of the novel has become just like them, learning how to walk, sleeping on beds in rooms, and even socializing with humans. Lately, I feel a lot like Napoleon. Although I've always had a bit of snob in me (remarking to El Ingeniero at a milonga how watching a certain couple dance makes my eyes bleed - so he already knows I'm a snob, and Dr Agsol Rac probably does too...- and previously having had a reputation among beginning tangueras that I'm standoffish, hard to please, picky, arrogant, and thus difficult to dance with because they are concerned of whether I approve - none of which, I admit, is entirely false-), it's never been full blown out as it seems nowadays. My previous rather acidic and hateful post about milonga pet peeves only begins to scratch the surface.

I used to despise those people at the milonga, the ones who act as though they hold the mysterious, magical way to tango, and brush off all others not belonging to the 'clique of the illuminated' as being mere wannabes. I think there were two major turning points to my transformation to who, what I am today at a milonga. At the local festival a few months ago, I was assigned as an interpreter for Javier Rodriguez and Andrea Missé. My perception of the whole experience, from the dance, the music, the little details, and interacting in the community, was completely shaken up, and has been evolving since. The second major turning point was starting to DJ regularly at milongas. From then on I have become an incredibly judgmental *******.

At milongas where I'm not DJing, I'm sitting there listening, looking, and only dance if and only if several conditions are met: I like the music at the beginning of the tanda (I am developing a taste for the non-rhythmic music... it is rare that I dance to Rodriguez or Biagi, let alone D'Arienzo... but don't worry, I will still play enough of it when I'm DJing), I feel the energy, I spot a suitable tanguera (considering all aspects: does she have her shoes on? have I danced with her before? does this Tanturi-Campos tanda seem to be in congruence with her personality as I know her and with her mood today? Yes, I'm a prick), and I achieve cabeceo with her. Otherwise, I watch and praise some dancers while I grimace in contempt of others. If I do get to dance, I am exceedingly irritated when somebody does not follow the line of dance, and I make it as clear as possible without actually explicitly telling him and proceeding to pick a fist fight (no, I haven't gotten to that point yet... I would probably get banned from the milonga venues). I often am judging far more experienced DJs for recycling tandas or having mediocre tandas where the mood is all over the place. Next thing I know, I'll be rejecting every tanguera that verbally asks me to dance, even if she's a close friend and a great dancer. This would be very Javier Rodriguez, but he can do it because he's THE Javier Rodriguez.

Why is this happening? Is this wrong? I don't know the answers to these questions. But I think the more one gets into a hobby, the more you get a (false?) sense of entitlement, and that's where the snobbishness comes from. I used to be a 'just do it' kind of person at milongas, regardless of Buenos Aires códigos or expectations to abide by the local community customs. Now I suddenly am much more difficult to deal with in a bizarre way. Maybe nowadays I think much more about tango than I did before now that I am more involved in it. The thought of taking a break from this hobby (because that's what it is for me... for now) has crossed my mind, but it's like an alcoholic in front of an open bar told not to drink. During the World Cup, I did take a 'break', but it was mostly because the game schedule conflicted with milonga schedule, as well as to circumvent some tanguera drama. Even then, I listened to tango music all day and practiced tango walking around the apartment, much to the confused amusement of my brother. So basically, once you're in deep enough, you start acting strange and you can't quit it... I remember I asked a tanguera about what the hell was up with that guy at a milonga who is a major snob and acts like a judgmental dick (who does this remind you of?... surprise--> nowadays I get along with him). She just shrugged her shoulders and said: "he loves tango too much". I love tango. Maybe that's why.

Originally posted on my blog: http://milongaparatres.blogspot.com

I want to know people's perspectives from here since the blog doesn't get that much traffic...

[newbie]

Nothing wrong, I'd be like this if I had the nerves to say 'no' when invited by ladies with whom I don't want to dance. A beginner leader will scan for beginner followers and dance on crystal-clear music, an advanced leader will scan for advanced followers and dance on difficult music. The only problem is the beginner followers scanning for advanced leaders.
Plus you're a DJ and an interpreter, which gives you a certain status, and people will expect you to be picky.

[Madahlia]

remarking to El Ingeniero at a milonga........ I'm a snob, and Dr Agsol Rac probably does too...-
.......interpreter for Javier Rodriguez and Andrea Missé......... Hmmm, not only a self-confessed snob but a name-dropper as well, probably not much hope for you. (Thinks, should I know who the hell they are? Probably.......Oh well.)


I want to know people's perspectives from here since the blog doesn't get that much traffic...

Seriously, I really enjoyed your funny and self-deprecating post - it was a brave confession.

Can you still be a snob if you know you're a snob? Are you still a snob if you really are superior to the people around you or only if you believe you are?

It seems to me that we all have to recognise differences from others in our personal levels of achievement, both upwards and downwards, and somehow come to terms with it. There is no point in excessive pride or excessive humility.

If you have worked hard to develop your talent then that is something to be justifiably proud of - with a few provisos. You should remember how hard the journey was for you and give some help to others who are not as advanced on that journey as you. (Feel free to pick the most deserving cases.) Pay back effort that others made on your behalf on the way up. Don't use your skill and knowledge to put others down. Even if general social dancing is not to your taste compensate for your unwillingness by being polite, pleasant and non-patronising to the lower orders. Give up the grimacing and negative-remarking at milongas - people will know from your expression and body-language what you're up to and it will only reinforce unproductive thinking in yourself.

My perception of the whole experience, from the dance, the music, the little details, and interacting in the community, was completely shaken up, and has been evolving since. I would be interested in hearing more about this and in what divides one level of achievement from another, if that is what you are referring to?

[milongadicto]

I wouldn't call referring to my fellow bloggers, for the same blog, I may add, name-dropping. As for Javier and Andrea, I don't claim to be close friends to them or anything, not that it would grant me a special status or anything. I agreed to be the interpreter because I'm comfortable with the languages to be dealt with, and to get free milonga passes since I'm broke. Point is that the whole experience turned out to be way more than I expected it to be. I think you're probably joking, but I don't really get British humo(u)r, and sarcasm/tongue in cheek isn't easy to see through internet. Just clarifying anyway.
But thanks for your input. An organizer asked me if I wanted to organize a práctica at his venue, but I was initially reluctant since I don't know the first thing about organizing tango events. Now that you say it, maybe I will do it as a way to paying back the efforts others made for me before... I promise I'll try not to teach them my snobbery

[Madahlia]

I think you're probably joking, but I don't really get British humo(u)r, and sarcasm/tongue in cheek isn't easy to see through internet. Just clarifying anyway.


Yes, sorry, I was joking, or at least teasing you a little bit - the joke is partly on me if I'm ignorant of who these people are!

[dchester]

It's as simple as this. You are what you are, until you stop doing the things that make you that way. If you don't want to be a snob (which is what it sounds like to me), then you'll have to figure out how to stop doing some of the things that snobs do, and/or, start doing some of the things that snobs don't do.

My advice, try to dance with a beginner or two at every milonga, (and try really hard to make her enjoy it). Occasionally, dance with ladies who ask you. Also, try to find someone you've never danced with before, and ask her to dance.

To be honest, this transformation that you've gone through, doesn't sound very attractive or desirable (but maybe that's just me). It's sounds like you're enjoying tango less. If this is so, then you'll need to figure out what the emotional aspects of this transformation that changed you, and figure out how to get your emotional state back to where it was (or at least at a better place than it is now).

Of course, it's quite possible that I'm not understanding the true essence of what you are saying, and thus my opinions may be worth less than the two cents they usually are.

The bottom line is that you are in charge of who you are. Become who you really want to be.
:cheers:

[little hobo]

It doesn't sound like there's been any transformation.

You've just changed who you're judgemental about.

[milongadicto]

dchester, that's the thing... What I do on the surface hasn't changed much. I just try to stick to the códigos more strictly, but if somebody asks me to dance, complete beginner or ultra advanced, I will dance with her and I will do my best to act the same to a not so good dancer as I would to a good one. It's what's beneath the surface, the snob underneath that kind of flows out in not so obvious ways. It's what I think. And no matter what I do, no matter how nice the things I do are, if I'm being judgmental under the surface, that's what I am, a hypocritical snob. Bare in mind, I share this here because of the anonymity, I haven't openly discussed this other than my closest tango friends. So I have no idea if I do come across like that, or if people don't sense I have changed. Also bare in mind that I moved twice since one of the anecdotes where I tell fellow blogger El Ingeniero that my eyes hurt, for reasons unrelated to tango... so maybe community members can't see if I have changed since they don't know me that well to begin with.
Also another possibility occurred to me... Maybe the more you get into tango, the more you become porteño, who are notoriously arrogant and selfish?
I don't know... what's clear right now is that I can't see things clearly, ironically. So I'll let this steep a little while to gather my thoughts.

[Captain Jep]

Funnily enough I have recently discovered your blog - so there's one more reader for you...

DJing can do funny things to you. For a start, you're evaluating the music rather than just dancing to the next tune that comes along. Second, the more you learn about the music, the more you think to yourself "I like this composer or that composer and want to dance to it with this or that person". Rather than just being an omnivore and enjoying dancing to everything.

Maybe the best thing is to divide milongas into a) ones where you are there to DJ and b) ones where you are there to dance. Switch off your critical brain when you're dancing. It's what I attempt to do anyway. I also try not to fiddle with playlists once I've set them out. This whole "decide on the fly" thing is just not something I agree with - it keeps your critical brain engaged and stops you enjoying the actual milonga.

Otherwise ... it's OK to be a little snobby. You are there to enjoy yourself after all - not be a taxi dancer...

[dchester]

dchester, that's the thing... What I do on the surface hasn't changed much. I just try to stick to the códigos more strictly, but if somebody asks me to dance, complete beginner or ultra advanced, I will dance with her and I will do my best to act the same to a not so good dancer as I would to a good one. It's what's beneath the surface, the snob underneath that kind of flows out in not so obvious ways. It's what I think. And no matter what I do, no matter how nice the things I do are, if I'm being judgmental under the surface, that's what I am, a hypocritical snob. Bare in mind, I share this here because of the anonymity, I haven't openly discussed this other than my closest tango friends. So I have no idea if I do come across like that, or if people don't sense I have changed. Also bare in mind that I moved twice since one of the anecdotes where I tell fellow blogger El Ingeniero that my eyes hurt, for reasons unrelated to tango... so maybe community members can't see if I have changed since they don't know me that well to begin with.
Also another possibility occurred to me... Maybe the more you get into tango, the more you become porteño, who are notoriously arrogant and selfish?
I don't know... what's clear right now is that I can't see things clearly, ironically. So I'll let this steep a little while to gather my thoughts.
OK, I think I misunderstood your original post.

Everyone has bad thoughts, but it's your actions that define you, not your thoughts. You're not a snob if you're not doing what snobs do (despite what thoughts may come into your head). The fact that you know there's something wrong with it, gives evidence that you may not be the snob that you suspect you might be.

There still does seem to be an issue with your enjoyment of tango that's worth exploring, though. If you dance with beginners and are able to give them an enjoyable dance, there's nothing wrong with finding a way to take satisfaction in it, even if she didn't give you the greatest dance. Just make sure you get in some dances with the best people you can find, as well.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[bastet]

As a follower I can tell you dchester's advice is very good and reasonable. And I tell you this because your apparent attitude (as dchester said you may have thoughts, but it's the whether you may carry them out that counts) sounds so dangerously like my other half who
has "a reputation among beginning tangueras that I'm standoffish, hard to please, picky, arrogant, and thus difficult to dance with because they are concerned of whether I approve"


...that you may in the end, end up offending more than "just" beginners. Word gets around, and ladies can tell if you do have that attitude and it won't be long before it will be more than beginners whom you include in your critique and the ladies may end up avoiding you as well.

It all comes back around one day.

[Dave Bailey]

(Thinks, should I know who the hell they are? Probably.......Oh well.)
It's amazing how little I've found any need to know who The Tango Gods are. I'm not sure why some tango people have a compulsion to name-drop either.

[Madahlia]

It's amazing how little I've found any need to know who The Tango Gods are. I'm not sure why some tango people have a compulsion to name-drop either.

The Tango Gods of BsAs have very little relevance to my life. I'm as likely to be over-influenced by the Big Fish that swim in my small pond as anyone else, though.

[v22TTC]

Milongadicto: I always find it amusing that 'all opinions are equal... but some more equal than others' - even the most 'egalitarian' folks tend to find 'snobbishness' outrageous.... That's hypocrisy (well, paradox more properly...), rather than feeling one thing and doing another: Which is simply life, as a social being (however much you may not want to be, you're stuck with it...).

It's the tension between what you'd like to do and actually do do - and why - that shapes you as a human being: it can be a hard, hard path, especially if the gap between those two things is great; but it's the only path in town. [As tends to be the case when people say such things, they're actually speaking to themselves, as I am too, in this case, as it happens....]

I think it unlikely that you'd be shaped by a culture that you hadn't had significant, direct, exposure to: I know nothing of your life but unless you've spent a great deal of time in Buenos Aires (particularly when young), you'll more likely be conforming to a simulation (in the Baudrillard sense) of being a Porteño than the real thing... it smacked of being a cop-out, a little.

S'ppose the two things that you have to balance are:-

1 Ethics - since 'just be nice' doesn't seem to be cutting it for you (and there's absolutely no reason why it should!), a more academic study might be more beneficial [Kant's Categorical Imperative probably has most of what you need here];

2 Hunger for 'authenticity' (always a precious commodity in these Postmodernist times!..). OK, some folks always go 'too far' in their hobbies, 'giving their hobby a bad name' etc - buuut: Tango is also very, very, very much art. Artists are supposed to be hyper-passionate, perfectionistic screw-ups (and, in fact, aren't worth much as artists if they aren't), so you can cut yourself a little slack there - and if you can project the 'artist' persona (rather than 'stuck-up, name-dropping nobhead' persona <razz>), then others may also cut you that slack.

That will help to narrow the dissonance between feel-think and do, in a not-too socially-disastrous way... but you'd best be really, really good at Tango before you start trying any of that!

I hope you find your 'answer' (of course there won't actually be one, other than some least-unsatisfactory awkward compromise), appreciate your honesty, and genuinely wish you the best.

[Zoopsia59]

The Tango Gods of BsAs have very little relevance to my life. I'm as likely to be over-influenced by the Big Fish that swim in my small pond as anyone else, though.

I believe that Javier was Geraldine Rojas partner, wasn't he? So, not just a tango god of BA. More like one of the "names" that people typically link with someone else when they are searching You Tube videos or talking about famous people's style, or famous partnerships.

Or not so famous I guess if people haven't heard of him

Disclaimer: I've never met any of these people. I'm not name dropping, just name clarifying.

[Zoopsia59]

OK, I think I misunderstood your original post.

Everyone has bad thoughts, but it's your actions that define you, not your thoughts. You're not a snob if you're not doing what snobs do (despite what thoughts may come into your head). The fact that you know there's something wrong with it, gives evidence that you may not be the snob that you suspect you might be.



If this statement is true:

a reputation among beginning tangueras that I'm standoffish, hard to please, picky, arrogant, and thus difficult to dance with because they are concerned of whether I approve - none of which, I admit, is entirely false-), it's never been full blown out as it seems nowadays.

then he's gone beyond just thoughts, and he is exhibiting behaviors that have encouraged this reputation. Obviously, if the thoughts were staying nicely tucked away in his head, followers wouldn't feel this way.

I'd say in general, both your thoughts AND your actions define you... you don't get a pass just because you smile at someone you are internally smirking over.

I'd also say that if he already has this reputation among followers (and I agree with Bastet, that the reputation will spread beyond just beginners who might be insecure.) then his actions are affecting him (and those around him) negatively just as his thoughts might.

If you agree to dance with someone, that person should not have to spend the entire dance worrying about whether they "measure up". See thread on "what followers want", but I feel this is important for both leaders and followers.

If you dance with someone, put your energy into THEIR good time, not into judging whether they are giving YOU one or whether they measure up to your standards.

[v22TTC]

Yeah, I should also clarify: my post was more about your off-dancefloor persona: I always take it is read that a dance itself is a contract with cast-iron rules, and pristine and sacrosanct - existing on a separate plane, with no baggage allowed (I forget that other people don't view it as I do...).

Snobbishness (to your partner) on the dancefloor constitutes a broken promise/oath; and yeah, there're all kinds of despicable hells reserved for that kind of transgression [well, I hope so anyway...].

[Steve Pastor]

Why is this happening? Is this wrong?

I can relate to much of what you write, because in many ways I have the same thoughts.
The more we learn about something, the more discerning we become.

(Something of a tangent here as an example. The Lion King was in town about a month ago. I'm going to Africa for a second time, and, although I've seen the film, a production in Orlando, etc, I went to see this production. Although someone in my office gave high praise, my reaction was more subduded. Someone called me on it, and it's simple. I've seem many live musicals, etc. over the years. This production of The Lion King was one of many. If you have never been to something like this, it's much more impressive.)

The more we dance with others, the more we know what pleases us, and what doesn't. Why should you expect yourself to not act on /react to your own knowledge and preferences?

On the other hand people sometimes take "Argentine Tango" SOOOO seriously. As someone who was learning a new dance, and what turned out to be basic skills that would/could serve me well in other dances, I took it seriously.

Snob - 1. One who is convinced of and flaunts one's social superiority. 2. One who despises one's inferiors and whose condecension arises from social or intellectual pretension.

If you know for a fact that people are dancing without regard to the music, is there any pretension invovlved?

What seems to upset people, though is when you verbalize your thoughts / observations.
I've learned to pretty much keep my mouth shut, and try to not look at couples that are out of time with the music (my eyes bleed if I do!).

How do you feel about milonga?
Do you dance "canyenge" ever?
For me, those are the fun things about AT.
Maybe if you set aside some time for just having fun with your dancing?
Then maybe you will begin to accept that not everyone will be as serious or knowledgeable about AT as you are. And you'll be OK with it.

[Zoopsia59]

The more we dance with others, the more we know what pleases us, and what doesn't. Why should you expect yourself to not act on /react to your own knowledge and preferences?

Sure.

But no matter how good someone is, there is still someone else (possibly many someone elses) much better. Even if there are people at your local milonga who are can easily be criticized, would you want really great dancers showing up at your milonga and internally (or externally) smirking over how much you're doing badly?

I don't have much patience with people who blatantly ignore the LOD or do other things that create havoc, danger or injury. But there's a big difference between being critical of practices that actually affect everyone and being critical of people's dance ability.

I truly believe that everyone is doing their best. Sitting on the sides critiquing others or insisting on only dancing with people at or above one's own level is pretty selfish. None of us got where we are by ourselves. People who were above us danced with us and were generous, encouraging partners who allowed us to have fun and feel good about our development.

A respected and well liked teacher attended a milonga here after the workshops, and I am told (I didn't go) that he danced with EVERY follower present at some point in the evening. Now THAT'S generous!

Does someone need to spend the whole evening dancing with beginners? No. Does everyone have a responsibility to "pay it forward" as they improve? Absolutely.

[Madahlia]

I believe that Javier was Geraldine Rojas partner, wasn't he? So, not just a tango god of BA. More like one of the "names" that people typically link with someone else when they are searching You Tube videos or talking about famous people's style, or famous partnerships.

Or not so famous I guess if people haven't heard of him


Apparently not; I hope he doesn't lose sleep over the uncountable millions who haven't heard of him! I'm pleased to announce that I have heard of Geraldine Rojas but might well fail to recognise her if I passed her in Tesco's. Perhaps my tango progress might be faster if I'd spent many hours minutely studying her style on YouTube videos.

(Something of a tangent here as an example. The Lion King was in town about a month ago. I'm going to Africa for a second time, and, although I've seen the film, a production in Orlando, etc, I went to see this production. Although someone in my office gave high praise, my reaction was more subduded. Someone called me on it, and it's simple. I've seem many live musicals, etc. over the years. This production of The Lion King was one of many. If you have never been to something like this, it's much more impressive.)

The more we dance with others, the more we know what pleases us, and what doesn't. Why should you expect yourself to not act on /react to your own knowledge and preferences?

Absolutely. I don't see the point in acquiring skill, judgement, sensitivity, discernment or experience if they are then supposed to count for nothing and not make any difference to you.

If I dance with someone who has considerably less skill then myself I can't fail to notice it and it will affect my enjoyment of the actual dance. Most of us delight in a skilled partner, and see it as an ultimate pleasure of the whole activity of dancing, don't we?

However, the thing that makes a less-skilled dancer into a snob is how harshly we judge the less-skilled person, and whether a positive attitude is shown to other elements of the experience, which might include simple fun, sociability, helping others, etc.

So at my own pathetic little level (a medium-sized fish in a goldfish bowl, say) I would have to say I share some of the same feelings as Milongadicto (who may be as a leviathan in a mighty ocean for all I know); however, I have to be aware that as I view others, so others view me. I fail to see the point in working to get the ability to discern between varying qualities and then not exercising it. But it still doesn't excuse us from also exercising human virtues of humility and kindness.

[dchester]

Absolutely. I don't see the point in acquiring skill, judgement, sensitivity, discernment or experience if they are then supposed to count for nothing and not make any difference to you.

If I dance with someone who has considerably less skill then myself I can't fail to notice it and it will affect my enjoyment of the actual dance. Most of us delight in a skilled partner, and see it as an ultimate pleasure of the whole activity of dancing, don't we?
So based on what you are saying, it sounds like the better you get, the less people there will be that you would enjoy dancing with.

;)

[opendoor]

.. always had a bit of snob in me .... want to know people's perspectives from here...

Hi milongadicto, thanks for your upfront confession. Read it with interest and grinning to myself. Think I know you. Your kind belongs to a tango scene as the fish to the water. And AT would not be TA if you´d stay at home to night.

My concern, almost everytime I have met a tango snob in the real life, by daylight, I was disappointed: nothing left in plain clothes.

The tango community offers a bundle of rules and codigos, that help to build up a second personality. Sometimes the tango appearence is more colourful, sometimes it´s the other way round. My problem is, I am the same in either world. Always too friendly: so, one of my older threads covers friendship, courtesy, and obligatory dances..

Keep it !
OD

[bordertangoman]

There is a quote from a book whic goes along the lines

"approval or disapproval is for the benefit of the disapprover, no-one else."

We all make judgements about other people, but staying open to the fact that they might be mistaken, or that they- say a dancer-might improve. I'm a coffee snob. I wont drink instant coffee even if it means saying no thank you to a friend. I never enjoy 100% of the music any dj plays, but I rarely feel dissatisfied since there will generally be an adequate amount of music that I will enjoy dancing to. And being a dj i know you cant please everyone, so I dont aim to, I please myself first, and guage the response for future reference. And your opion of what tandas or songs work together is only that; your opinion

To judge a follower as suitable for dancing Tanturi & Campos?? The mind boggles!!
Fine the experience and skill of a dancer is important, but look at it the other way around; suppose the person you cabaceod doesnt think you're right for Tanturi and Campos (which you're probably not, how can you move to the warm creaminess of Una Emocion when you've been grumbling in your mind all evening? ;) 0

If you are only satisfied if things are a certain way...then you wont be satisfied....

being sociable and generous are values of equal value to any codigo and line of dance is as only important as floorcraft, and its necessity depends on how crowded the floor is. I see plenty of people hold up the line of dance because they are unaware of the space in front.

[Madahlia]

So based on what you are saying, it sounds like the better you get, the less people there will be that you would enjoy dancing with.

;)
I'm afraid that if dance skill is the only criterion by which to judge the experience of a dance, then, yes, I am saying that. It certainly seems to be true for the OP. But you will have noticed that were some important qualifications to my remarks - so in theory, one could be the best AT dancer in the entire universe and still take positive pleasure in dancing with a wide range of people, but probably for mainly non-dance reasons.

Hey, I'm being devil's advocate here. A skilful dancer feels good to dance with because they're, well, skilful. I want to be skilful so my partners find me good to dance with. Is there anybody here who thinks skill is unimportant?


If you are only satisfied if things are a certain way...then you wont be satisfied....It's certainly easier to cope with life if you are flexible and take what comes. But people who are highly skilled in whatever area are going to be harder to satisfy.

[Zoopsia59]

Perhaps my tango progress might be faster if I'd spent many hours minutely studying her style on YouTube videos.

I wouldn't know.

The only time I ever bother with youtube videos is when someone posts one here.

Your tango progress might be faster though if you spent time studying your OWN dancing on a video... but the last time I saw myself on a video, I just got depressed. :?

[Steve Pastor]

the better you get, the less people there will be that you would enjoy dancing with.


I have been known to advise people not to get too good for precisely this reason.
(except that I would say fewer people)

[Steve Pastor]

Nevertheless...
I always try to notice the people that aren't dancing much, or at all.
And any woman, no matter how "beginner" she is, who has a postivie attitude about wanting to get better at the dance, is someone I will offer to dance with.
Do I have an obligation to dance with them?
I would have to say no.
Is dancing with them (at least once!) the right thing to do?
Well, yeah.

Still, I've written a fair amount about the "high overhead" imposed by the tanda system. Anyone who wants to encourage more exchanging of partners should think about how much it should be promoted.
If we want "social dancing" as it's understood in the US and Europe, maybe the milonga/tanda model isn't the best fit.

[milongadicto]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've been busy with work, life, etc. so I hadn't replied.
Anyway, i made a new post on the issue... feel free to respond here or in more anonymity as Anonymous on the blog:
milongaparatres.blogspot

Victims of my snobbery, part I
In my previous post, I discussed with some detail my gradual, ongoing transformation to a tango snob. As I said, the morality (or immorality) of being a tango snob is unclear to me. But for now, I decided to embrace what I have become, in an attempt to understand the nature of the snob (or maybe it's just my excuse to be lazy and change, if you're a cynical anti-snob, which itself is, ironically, kinda snobby too). Perhaps I'm just trying to justify myself for something that might be seen as wrong, but I think, as you get in deeper into a hobby, it's inevitable to slowly become at least slightly more knowledgeable in the subject, develop stronger and stronger preferences, becoming pickier each time, and also maybe gain a little sense of entitlement given the amount of time, money, and effort invested in it. "Steve Pastor", Moderator and Feudal Lord of Dance Forums, gave me an example of his that suddenly made things clear:
"The Lion King was in town about a month ago. I'm going to Africa for a second time, and, although I've seen the film, a production in Orlando, etc, I went to see this production. Although someone in my office gave high praise, my reaction was more subdued. Someone called me on it, and it's simple. I've seem many live musicals, etc. over the years. This production of The Lion King was one of many. If you have never been to something like this, it's much more impressive."

But I digress. The point of this blog, as indicated in the title, is to directly point out who the people that irritate me at milongas are. I'm not going to include the obvious, such as people with no respect of the LOD or people who dance awfully even if they've been dancing a while. Of course, I've tried to be as decent as a self-confessed snob as possible, so I haven't been judging those who have obviously been dancing for a short time too harshly. And in the meantime, I'm just going to sit and fret over the people I will describe in a series of posts. That is, until the hypothetical day comes that I am good enough to be able to teach in order to eradicate all the things that annoy me of the tango scene, and in this way, give back to the community, as has been suggested to me. You might laud me and say that, despite my snobbishness, I still have a shred of humility left in me. But it's really an extension of my snobbery, owing to the amount of 'teachers' who have no business teaching, which seems to be proportional to the size of the tango community. Anyway, I digress again.... Without further ado, I present you:

The Escenario Barbie

I have no beef against Tango Escenario. In fact, watching the Escenario category of the Mundial is a lot of fun, especially if they fully express the drama of Pugliese, and if they can pull off Piazzolla, all power to them. But it's called Escenario because it should be saved for the stage. It is perfectly possible to do Tango Escenario on the stage, and switch back to salon/milonguero for social dancing. In fact, a couple participated in both Escenario and Salon in the Mundial, ranking 2nd and 3rd in each.

Last night, I encountered a species that I never thought I would encounter in a milonga. I'd seen her in rare occasion with her partner at a different milonga, and it was clear they were performers. A mutual friend introduced us, and my friend, in private, asked me to dance with her if it wasn't too much trouble. Apparently they are an Argentine couple who work at a local Argentine restaurant performing at shows, but for whatever reason, locals rarely ask her to dance. It became clear why (not sure if it's the same reason that others don't ask her to dance, but just to strengthen my argument, I'll imply it is, with no evidence whatsoever).

She looked pretty from a distance, but from up close, I could see the thick layers of makeup. I just thought 'oh maybe they were performing today and had to look pretty'. It was just a foreboding of things to come. As I embraced her, I have never been so convinced that somebody's boobs are not made of human tissue, but of synthetic material. It was a fitting metaphor of her tango - fake. The embrace was awfully distant. She was more concerned in looking pretty by making her legwork elegant rather than by just following, enjoying the embrace, the dance, and the music. As such, I could barely lead to a proper ocho atras without the embrace falling apart. I tried just walking, but she seemed to become bored. At every move, her torso stayed very still, hinting not so subtly that I should show her the way with the use of my hand (this became very apparent in watching her partner dance with her and other hapless women). I thought to myself "hell no, woman, my hand is for embracing you, not for moving you around like a sack of potatoes!" I guess you have to use your arms to throw your woman around in crazy saltos, ganchos, enganches, and the whole package. But yeah.... fortunately (or very unfortunately for me), I'm not yet enough of a snob, or rather I'm still an inhibited snob, so I endured the agony of the whole tandas. Di Sarli never seemed so eternally damning. From now on, every time I see them at the milonga, I'll politely say hi since we now know each other. But I'll use any excuse not to dance with her, and I will shake my head in contempt when watching them dance.

Stay tuned for the next edition of Victims of my snobbery

[Zoopsia59]

"Steve Pastor", Moderator and Feudal Lord of Dance Forums, gave me an example of his that suddenly made things clear:
"The Lion King was in town about a month ago. I'm going to Africa for a second time, and, although I've seen the film, a production in Orlando, etc, I went to see this production. Although someone in my office gave high praise, my reaction was more subdued. Someone called me on it, and it's simple. I've seem many live musicals, etc. over the years. This production of The Lion King was one of many. If you have never been to something like this, it's much more impressive."

I didn't have time to read your whole post tonight, but I think it's important to note that while Steve may have been underwhelmed by that particular production, I'm sure he still applauded at the end rather than sit there grumbling or folding his hands over his chest because it wasn't up to his standards.

There's a difference between being discerning or aware of differences in quality vs. being a snob about it in the negative sense. Maybe it just comes down to manners? Too often, tango dancers are not discerning... they are simply snobs who behave in the tango equivalent of not applauding at the end of a show that was not the best they've seen. Some even go so far as to do the equivalent of throwing rotten vegetables.

(as a side note, I actually did go see a play once that was SO bad, no one clapped during the curtain call. When I say "no one", I mean the 8 of us (or therebouts) that remained after intermission didn't clap. It was THAT bad.)

[Zoopsia59]

Still, I've written a fair amount about the "high overhead" imposed by the tanda system. Anyone who wants to encourage more exchanging of partners should think about how much it should be promoted.
If we want "social dancing" as it's understood in the US and Europe, maybe the milonga/tanda model isn't the best fit.

While dancing an entire tanda with someone who isn't so fab can be annoying, the bottom line (IMHO) is that the tanda system improves everyone's dancing ability in the community by giving people more time to settle in with a partner. Even the better dancers don't always dance their best during the first song in the tanda. If you are dancing with a total stranger, most of us (or maybe I'm alone in this?) will dance better for the 2nd piece no matter how "good" we are in general with familiar people. The less experience someone has, I think the longer it takes for them to adapt as they move from partner to partner.

To me, dancing with lesser experienced/skilled dancers is an investment in the future of the community. I don't think it's high overhead for the payoff obtained (having more dancers who are enjoyable to dance with). In a small community, if there are only a few really good dancers and they LEAVE, then the people left will be wishing they had spent a little more time nurturing those coming up.

I doubt I would enjoy milongas as much if there were no tandas and I had to find a new partner every song. People would still dance several songs in a row with their favorites, but the people who need the opportunity to dance with better dancers would get LESS of it, IMO.

[dchester]

I didn't have time to read your whole post tonight, but I think it's important to note that while Steve may have been underwhelmed by that particular production, I'm sure he still applauded at the end rather than sit there grumbling or folding his hands over his chest because it wasn't up to his standards.

There's a difference between being discerning or aware of differences in quality vs. being a snob about it in the negative sense. Maybe it just comes down to manners? Too often, tango dancers are not discerning... they are simply snobs who behave in the tango equivalent of not applauding at the end of a show that was not the best they've seen. Some even go so far as to do the equivalent of throwing rotten vegetables.

While I had the time, I just didn't have the desire to read the whole post (once I got to the part about embracing being a snob, or whatever it was). He has the right to be a snob, but I'm certainly not going to pretend that there's anything admirable about it.

[Peaches]

the tanda system improves everyone's dancing ability in the community by giving people more time to settle in with a partner. Amen, and hallelujah!

I can't think of how many times I've ended up really enjoying a tanda that started off not-so-good. I had one experience just this past weekend like that. I love tandas. Give me a song to get calm with a partner, and figure out where their strengths and weaknesses lie, and for them to figure out mine. And then things can get good.

[Madahlia]

She looked pretty from a distance, but from up close, I could see the thick layers of makeup. I just thought 'oh maybe they were performing today and had to look pretty'. It was just a foreboding of things to come. As I embraced her, I have never been so convinced that somebody's boobs are not made of human tissue, but of synthetic material. It was a fitting metaphor of her tango - fake. The embrace was awfully distant. She was more concerned in looking pretty by making her legwork elegant rather than by just following, enjoying the embrace, the dance, and the music. As such, I could barely lead to a proper ocho atras without the embrace falling apart. I tried just walking, but she seemed to become bored. At every move, her torso stayed very still, hinting not so subtly that I should show her the way with the use of my hand (this became very apparent in watching her partner dance with her and other hapless women). I thought to myself "hell no, woman, my hand is for embracing you, not for moving you around like a sack of potatoes!" I guess you have to use your arms to throw your woman around in crazy saltos, ganchos, enganches, and the whole package. But yeah.... fortunately (or very unfortunately for me), I'm not yet enough of a snob, or rather I'm still an inhibited snob, so I endured the agony of the whole tandas. Di Sarli never seemed so eternally damning. From now on, every time I see them at the milonga, I'll politely say hi since we now know each other. But I'll use any excuse not to dance with her, and I will shake my head in contempt when watching them dance.



I wonder what she was thinking about you?

She may have gone back to her partner with a rant about your deficiencies.

It's hard to know the rights and wrongs of the incident because you have related it purely from your point of view. You portray yourself as the expert and arbiter of tango taste, against whose standards the follower failed: but we all know that there can be a lot of variations in what individuals consider correct and what they expect from a partner. Not that this should excuse bad dancing in any form - but we are having to trust your word on this.

My feeling is that the attitudes of yourself and your partner were inflexible and neither of you showed that willingness to accommodate each other in the embrace, which needs to happen if a tanda between two disparate partners is to be a success. You were judgemental of her from the start and felt yourself to be a "pressed man", therefore consciously or unconsciously unwilling; you also had an unfailing belief in the correctness of your dance style versus hers and decided not to compromise. She, maybe, was irritated with you for failing to make your lead clear; perhaps she felt you were compromising her elegant legwork in some way. Who knows? But with more positive attitudes being shown on each side there probably would have been a more comfortable middle way.

Are you sure, in any case, that you were judging her purely on her dance, and not on her over-made-up and artificial looks?

I think this is an example of how snobbish attitudes create a worse dance experience for yourself rather than a better. You seem likely to repeat this kind of negative experience in various ways as time goes by, eventually poisoning your view of the dance you love. You could remedy this by accepting that there are always going to be partners with whom you don't "gel" and not attributing blame so firmly. Thereby blending high personal standards with a sense of humility.

[little hobo]

I've decided that I'm a blog snob.

So I'm not going to waste anymore of my time on such self-important, ponderous, unaware drivel.

[bordertangoman]

Amen, and hallelujah!

I can't think of how many times I've ended up really enjoying a tanda that started off not-so-good. I had one experience just this past weekend like that. I love tandas. Give me a song to get calm with a partner, and figure out where their strengths and weaknesses lie, and for them to figure out mine. And then things can get good.

I quite agree with that.. had a lovely second and third dance with a lady who was quite physically nervous on the first dance..mind you I belong to the judo school of tango*


*Judo has the fastest cardiac aceleration; since you grapple then go for a throw....

[Dave Bailey]

{ snip }
Umm, to be honest, I think it's not a good idea to copy-and-paste an entire blog entry on here - maybe better to simply link to it, and just do a quick summary as a post?

[v22TTC]

The title is a misnomer, thankfully, for now - if the lady was as you say, then she was an unpleasant type of person to dance with (unless the leader is also of a showy way), snobbery or no snobbery.

Maybe you could have accommodated her a bit more, but from my experience, probably not: perhaps you're being a bit hard on yourself in your feeling that you've embraced your snob, become 'dark' and are now causing others to be victims of this, since you seem to have done everything right here, in terms of the forms anyway....

I can't see a victim here, and nor would I consider selfish and disrespectful - and dangerous - dancers as victims, were you to 'snob' them in some way; if you chased them with a chainsaw, they've got it coming, as far as I'm concerned....

Quite simply, if you ever do make others victims, as even you (the aggressor) perceive it, then you already know that you're on the wrong path: 'victim' suggests someone undeserving of the treatment given to them - if you're using that word, knowing what it means, then you've already answered yourself.

And pretty much nobody will want to know about what you did to your victims, if victims they really were (except for sadists, obviously... which, in fact, I think is pretty much everybody... though most pretend to not be, publicly), just so you know.


Victims of my snobbery, part I
In my previous post, I discussed with some detail my gradual, ongoing transformation to a tango snob. As I said, the morality (or immorality) of being a tango snob is unclear to me. But for now, I decided to embrace what I have become, in an attempt to understand the nature of the snob (or maybe it's just my excuse to be lazy and change, if you're a cynical anti-snob, which itself is, ironically, kinda snobby too). Perhaps I'm just trying to justify myself for something that might be seen as wrong, but I think, as you get in deeper into a hobby, it's inevitable to slowly become at least slightly more knowledgeable in the subject, develop stronger and stronger preferences, becoming pickier each time, and also maybe gain a little sense of entitlement given the amount of time, money, and effort invested in it.

Few points, breaking it down:-

I'd really leave 'morality/immorality' alone and concentrate on ethics, if I were you.

It is encumbent upon you to not make a choice that may adversely affect others until the ethics are clear to you; both to minimise harm to others and to yourself (both in terms of conscience and consequences that will never go away).

Note, Nietzsche was no dummy, and it is quite possible that becoming the snob might be the most ethically right thing to do, for you - but you should be clear about this before you begin hurting others, not simply be hurting others as part of your experiment (which is cowardly, and mendacious, actually).

As I mentioned in another post to you; you have chosen a social hobby (and you repeatedly use the word 'hobby'). As I define words, 'social' trumps 'hobby' practically completely - there are plenty of solitary hobbies where you can be as picky and entitlement-enjoying as you like as you improve and invest .

You can even show off and legitimately snob all over others by winning competitions in such hobbies, since they aren't social.

But where they do become social, social trumps hobby - hobby is merely a vehicle to better fulfil your social obligations (encouraging newcomers, offering helpful advice, warmly, etc); if that's unnacceptable, then leave the social out of it.

As I mentioned, 'Art' however, is a different story - but that isn't the word that you use [though I do, when it comes to TA - it is [I]anathema to me to consider it a hobby...].

Here we can go round and round in definitions-hell; but even though it's Art (to me, not you, it seems...) - it's social-Art... which makes things interesting....

But since this doesn't seem to apply to you and your view that it's only a hobby:p, then there's no need to go into this - unless anyone else wants to....

[flyhere]

I see, and like, the point of the tanda system, allowing us to settle down with a dance partner. The etiquette is also obvious, to dance the whole tanda.

I go to a milonga where they do not have tandas, simply just one song after another. What would be the correct number of dances one should dance with a partner? Or may be not so much the "correct" thing to do, just wondering if there is a common practice.

With the first dance usually not a whole song, I would always dance a second dance, then see if the lady opts to do a third or not.

[milongadicto]

Oh don't get me wrong, people... I'm neither trying to justify my arrogant attitude nor denying that I'm being a judgmental *******... I thought it was very clear in both posts. I'm not even going to pretend it's not really cowardly from my part to express these kinds of feelings behind the mask of anonymity, where I don't really have to face any consequences unless I start threatening people.
Both on and off the dance floor, I'm admittedly a bit of a *****, but I tend to hide it most of the time. Lately it's becoming harder and harder to hide it in the tango context. I'm as much of an ******* as I've ever been, and this snobbery is partly just an extension of my character, which was kinda dormant until recently, which leads me to believe it might be a phase I'm going through. I consulted with my closest tanguero friends, and I've had mixed responses - across the spectrum of becoming generous or becoming ultra picky to the point of being a *****... I don't really know where being a sleaze ball dancing with young pretty girls who can't dance fits.
But yeah... don't get offended, because I'm not trying to tell you 'my way is right'... you can agree, share similar experiences, or preach........ and having told you my character, you can guess what I'm going to do with the advice I get ;)

[v22TTC]

"Am I a moralist?":nope: [Not anymore....]

Speaking only for myself:-

From the beginning, your honesty has been very much a saving grace (inasmuch as anything needed saving...);

You did ask for discussion (which you haven't actually done, yourself, yet), which will naturally entail (some) advice - or rather, things that might be of interest for you to consider;

It is not cowardly to discuss anything with anonymity - it is a phenomenally useful tool; discussion isn't really affecting anybody - it's when you begin to affect others that such concepts come into play (though, of course, the tone of the discussion may involve cowardice);

As it happens, I'm having a similar struggle but on a macro-level (people generally, but not Tango), so I'm interested in your mental/ethical etc journey through this... your internal journey, if you like, which I thought your first post suggested... some involved might learn something;

If it's to be no discussion but simply a list of victims and what you did to them... well, I'm not sure what you expect to get out of that, by sharing it? To be sure, at least one of the greatest pieces of literature of all time was that (though it had rather more to it, really) - maybe you can include chapters going methodically into Gotan Project and Otros Aires and how great they are, as a postmodern pastiche?...;);

Snobbishness can be fun and playful - that's what I've been doing in this thread. <Shrug....>

[spectator]

ART?
Oh for god's sake.

[SD]

Dear Mr. Milongadicto,**

Thank you for sharing your experiences in the salon, as it were. I am certain that part of the enjoyment I found in reading your post and blog entries is due to similarities to my own experience. As you have asked for peoples perspectives, I shall give you my perspective on your piece of writing.

I see several themes developing here. In brief, I see discernment - learning what it is that you like, and of course, what you don't like. I see expressiveness - "I make it as clear as possible without actually explicitly telling..." (I am quoting you to yourself here, leading up to a question I intend to pose to you later...) I see judgment - "I grimace in contempt of others..." (Quoting you again.) I see self-observation - a rare quality for sure in the tango world; it is too easy for most of us to spend all of our time looking at the reflection of ourselves in the mirror that is other peoples’ reaction to us. And perhaps I am reading something in between the lines that may or may not be there, but I suspect that perhaps you may feel some discontentment, some inkling that there might be something more to find. I should like to elaborate on each theme in turn, and I shall save the most interesting for last.

Discernment. This is a very important development. Our likes and dislikes are central to who we are as individuals. Robert Glover says "when a child begins to develop discernment we call it the terrible twos." ( I am paraphrasing from memory here,) He also notes that "differentiation is the basis of all maturity and adulthood and productive living."

Expressiveness. Having the courage to express your likes and dislikes is absolutely necessary to being the kind of person that other people can trust. If you conceal your true responses for any reason, even in an attempt to "be nice," then no one can really trust what you say. You are not really all that nice. Discernment, knowing what you want, and expressiveness combined over time produces what we call integrity. Note that what you want,or like may be very ephemeral, it may change and develop from moment to moment, it is allowing the honesty and expressiveness to flow in more and more settings with more and more people that is the growth of integrity.

Judgment. Temple Grandin insists that pigs have a NEED for some material to root around in. Mud, straw, whatever. It is part of what they do. Without it they get depressed. And she says that dogs need people or other dogs to pal around with. They need society. I say, from looking at people, they appear to have a need for hierarchy and comparisons. Without it they become lost and unsure of where they stand. Dance scenes of any sort always provide this sort of hierarchy, with a teacher or pro or contest winner gloriously at the top, and newbies at the bottom. Pretty much everyone takes part in this as soon as they have a go at something difficult and a voice pops up in their head saying "I suck at this." If you listen to that voice at all, then you are on the grid, perhaps better than some, but not as worthy of glory as another. But hey, as one of my favorite philosophers Hobbes said, "The nice thing about living the good life is, you get to be smug about it." I am quoting the tiger Hobbes who hangs around with Calvin, not the other guy. At any rate, you have worked hard and achieved some level of mastery of an art. Why not enjoy it?

Self Observation is indeed a rare quality in dancers. The second of the two best things I like about dance is the incredible sense of validation and completeness that rises up within me when I partner with a very skilled and collaborative partner and together we create something that neither could create alone. It really is like a high. I feel energized, joyful, and grateful to my partner. And I feel good about myself and what I have done. What a relief! (If only I could just see that about myself directly....)

The only caveat I would offer here is that If you go along chasing that crack hit of joy because it is the only time you really feel good then you may develop a problem. The problem being that like Narcissus, you will never get enough. Remember that Narcissus was not in love with himself; he was in love with his reflection. For we dancers, the connection and ease and musical expression we feel with our partners is a reflection of our skill and worthiness as dancers. This can be a wonderful thing to enjoy. But if we try to use it to fill in a portion of ourselves that we think we are missing, then we will be forever stuck longing for that lovely moment, our beautiful reflection.

So if I am correct in hearing a note, perhaps a chord of discontentment in you writing, then I have a question for you: What do you want to get from tango?

That question is enough. But for the rest of the audience of this forum I will ask: Do you want to separate yourself from the herd and become a king with a tiny circle of courtesans that you associate with, the rest passing by you like cattle? For many of us this is more than enough, even if we are always hungry for more. Or do you want to find connection, not just to others, but to yourself?

Another great piece of writing that I am reminded of is Chico Frumboli's Mea Culpa interview in el tanguata, which is linked to somewhere on this site...

-SD

note **MilongaDickToe??

[bordertangoman]

But for the rest of the audience of this forum I will ask: Do you want to separate yourself from the herd and become a king with a tiny circle of courtesans that you associate with, the rest passing by you like cattle? For many of us this is more than enough, even if we are always hungry for more. Or do you want to find connection, not just to others, but to yourself?


ahem, both actually.

[v22TTC]

ART?
Oh for god's sake.

You know it!:p

[Angel HI]

I have been reading and not posting, but had to come in and do some mod editing. IMHO, the best posts in the thread are
There's a difference between being discerning or aware of differences in quality vs. being a snob about it in the negative sense. Maybe it just comes down to manners? Too often, tango dancers are not discerning... they are simply snobs who behave in the tango equivalent of not applauding at the end of a show that was not the best they've seen.... because, regardless of how *******ing one's insights might be, it doesn't make them any less wrong. I think the OP is paving a unfortunate and disastrous road for himself as a social dancer, and is certainly not doing AT any good. And,...

To me, dancing with lesser experienced/skilled dancers is an investment in the future of the community. Moreso than the community, it is an greater investment in the "two" dancers; the lesser, by having the opportunity to learn from the better, and the better, by improving his/her skills by being able to dance with a lesser polished dancer.

Remember: "Everyone can dance well with a good dancer, but only a good dancer can dance well with a beginner."

[SD]

I have been reading and not posting, but had to come in and do some mod editing. IMHO, the best posts in the thread are
... because, regardless of how *******ing one's insights might be, it doesn't make them any less wrong. I think the OP is paving a unfortunate and disastrous road for himself as a social dancer, and is certainly not doing AT any good. And,...

Moreso than the community, it is an greater investment in the "two" dancers; the lesser, by having the opportunity to learn from the better, and the better, by improving his/her skills by being able to dance with a lesser polished dancer.

Remember: "Everyone can dance well with a good dancer, but only a good dancer can dance well with a beginner."
I completely agree that snobbishness is unpleasant or foolish and that the best dancers can dance well with many partners. I must disagree with the "unfortunate and disastrous road" bit. Anyone who behaves politely because they are told to do so by an authority may become a sort of very pleasant type person to be around. They may be quite sociable and sort of well liked by all to a point. But they will never become a leader. As a dancer they will always be mediocre if that, never doing anything that might make anyone uncomfortable or taking any risks... and thus never learning much new.

On the other hand, if they find in their own heart a true desire to be a gentleman and a great dancer, then they may find a path to grow beyond snobbery, and into something great. I would rather endure some childish behavior with a forecast for possible growing up than enforced leveling of noses.

(I try to remind myself of this every time I go to a milonga and witness the playground behavior of most of the males in the room....:rolleyes:

What can I say, I'm an optimist I guess.;))

[bordertangoman]

I . Anyone who behaves politely because they are told to do so by an authority may become a sort of very pleasant type person to be around. They may be quite sociable and sort of well liked by all to a point. But they will never become a leader. As a dancer they will always be mediocre if that, never doing anything that might make anyone uncomfortable or taking any risks... and thus never learning much new.


i agree with that.

[Dave Bailey]

Do you want to separate yourself from the herd and become a king with a tiny circle of courtesans
How tiny?

[bordertangoman]

How tiny?

can one courtesan make a circle?

one would do :D

[Zoopsia59]

can one courtesan make a circle?

I believe they call that a molinete'

[bordertangoman]

I believe they call that a molinete'

:D so Kings and Courtesans for 2.mins40 seconds

there's a fancy dress idea

[Angel HI]

Originally Posted by SD http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=822406#post822406)
I . Anyone who behaves politely because they are told to do so by an authority may become a sort of very pleasant type person to be around. They may be quite sociable and sort of well liked by all to a point. But they will never become a leader. As a dancer they will always be mediocre if that, never doing anything that might make anyone uncomfortable or taking any risks... and thus never learning much new.
i agree with that.I have no idea what that means. Is the poster saying that if one is not an *** then one can never be a leader? Ridiculous.

[bordertangoman]

Originally Posted by SD http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=822406#post822406)
I . Anyone who behaves politely because they are told to do so by an authority may become a sort of very pleasant type person to be around. They may be quite sociable and sort of well liked by all to a point. But they will never become a leader. As a dancer they will always be mediocre if that, never doing anything that might make anyone uncomfortable or taking any risks... and thus never learning much new.
I have no idea what that means. Is the poster saying that if one is not an *** then one can never be a leader? Ridiculous.

I understand it to mean akin to the ideas conveyed in "Being Genuine: Stop Being Nice, Start Being Real" by Thomas D'ansembourg (Author) : "In this English translation of the French bestseller, readers will learn simple, practical skills to step outside of their emotional masks to live a genuine, authentic life. Teaching everyday communication skills to respectfully express true feelings and the power of requesting wants without demands or force, readers learn how to tackle life's difficult situations and conversations with ease and even excitement. Topics include ideas and advice on how to identify feelings and needs without blaming others, honest and respectful self-expression, facing conflict with ease, and finding balance by staying connected to basic needs."

"nice" just dont cut it on the dance floor

[dchester]

Originally Posted by SD http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=822406#post822406)
I . Anyone who behaves politely because they are told to do so by an authority may become a sort of very pleasant type person to be around. They may be quite sociable and sort of well liked by all to a point. But they will never become a leader. As a dancer they will always be mediocre if that, never doing anything that might make anyone uncomfortable or taking any risks... and thus never learning much new.
I have no idea what that means. Is the poster saying that if one is not an *** then one can never be a leader? Ridiculous.
I'm with you on this one Angel.

[bordertangoman]

Originally Posted by SD http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=822406#post822406)
I . Anyone who behaves politely because they are told to do so by an authority may become a sort of very pleasant type person to be around. They may be quite sociable and sort of well liked by all to a point. But they will never become a leader. As a dancer they will always be mediocre if that, never doing anything that might make anyone uncomfortable or taking any risks... and thus never learning much new.
I have no idea what that means. Is the poster saying that if one is not an *** then one can never be a leader? Ridiculous.

i dont think *** equates to be the opposite of polite....

I know a couple of ***** who can dance well but they're unspeakable as people....

its more about being one's own man and not a puppet of rules, other people's opinions;

i think the post is pretty self explanatory, but your interpretation is off the mark.

[dchester]

i dont think *** equates to be the opposite of polite....

I know a couple of ***** who can dance well but they're unspeakable as people....

its more about being one's own man and not a puppet of rules, other people's opinions;

i think the post is pretty self explanatory, but your interpretation is off the mark.
FWIW, I know some very nice people who respect authority, and are great dancers as well. I think the statement by SD is flat wrong, but that's just my opinion.

[bordertangoman]

FWIW, I know some very nice people who respect authority, and are great dancers as well. I think the statement by SD is flat wrong, but that's just my opinion.

YES but the fact that you have an opinion suggests you have the potential that the poster referred to.. Respect is recognising another's values....

but in the uk requires teaching confidence and maybe assertiveness as much as any particular aspects of dance;
its having chutzpah, a bit of character and being a 'nodder' just doesnt work, until you as as a leader say this is what I hear and this is how I am going to dance......

[DerekWeb]

I understand it to mean akin to the ideas conveyed in "Being Genuine: Stop Being Nice, Start Being Real" by Thomas D'ansembourg (Author) : "In this English translation of the French bestseller, readers will learn simple, practical skills to step outside of their emotional masks to live a genuine, authentic life. Teaching everyday communication skills to respectfully express true feelings and the power of requesting wants without demands or force, readers learn how to tackle life's difficult situations and conversations with ease and even excitement. Topics include ideas and advice on how to identify feelings and needs without blaming others, honest and respectful self-expression, facing conflict with ease, and finding balance by staying connected to basic needs."

"nice" just dont cut it on the dance floor


The French need lessons in being direct? I thought it was cultural tradition!

[Steve Pastor]

Interesting...
First let me say that the standard "how to act in public" rules always apply for me when it comes to being on the dance floor. (Too many ATers are not taught, or don't get the lesson of "apologize when you run into, step on, kick, etc, someone else)

Regarding "being your own man", "not being a nodder", etc... when you step out from the crowd you will find that not everyone likes you, or what you are doing.

If my partners don't like what I am doing, and I continue to dance how I feel, I will most certainly end up with only those partners who like what I do. In this respect I think I will be going through phases. Or dancing only milonga or vals, or those Piazolla pieces, if I can find someone whom I think understands the changing dynamic of the music and can put it in their body.

[v22TTC]

[Clearly I'm saying all of this to myself, in response to the current discussion - hence the lecturing tone: I hope that someone else might get something useful out of it too....:)]

I'm struggling with this one myself - but the problem here seems to be the usual one of either/or (in all situations) eroding meaning.

Different problems/contexts require different tools (personae/approaches/mindsets etc); so there's three problems/contexts here:-

1 Mastering the learning of the artform (TA);

2 Carrying out the art (the social dance itself);

3 The ancillary 'stuff' surrounding the dance itself.

The tools being discussed are pretty much archetypes:-

i The 'Superman' (striving for excellence, following your own compass, living dangerously, mastering yourself etc);

ii The 'Ultimate Man' ('ultimate' meaning only 'final' in classical German - not 'best' as in English: mediocre, safe, docile, obedient, non-self-examining etc);

To which I would add:-

iii The Taoist 'Immortal' (totally in tune/harmony with the 'self'/surrounding context, non-attached to specific outcomes, going with the flow etc).

'Ultimate Man' can never achieve excellence (unless phenomenally naturally-gifted): so he has no place on the dancefloor (if excellence, rather than light-hearted fun, is desired)... but he's useful when not dancing, since he will be a non-alarming 'one of us' amongst the majority of other 'Ultimate Men' chatting small-talk and whatnot in the milonga.

"The strong have always needed to be protected from the weak", but no-one ever does this (except where high status is involved), so they must protect themselves - this persona ('Ultimate Man') does this. This isn't snobbishness: it is proactive self-defence - most 'decent, ordinary people' are relentlessly savage and dangerous the moment they are in a pack and sense an otherness (such as decency or a desire for excellence) that they can exploit/attack from complete safety ('Banality of Evil [doers]' and all that...)... put your sheep's clothing on and you'll be safer - just make sure that you don't seem too 'nice' (this is like putting your face in the scorpions' nest).

Of course, what you're really being is an 'Immortal' pretending to be an 'Ultimate Man' - just be dilligent, and make sure you don't slip up: allow no chink of excellence, nobility or enlightenment to shine through the appearance of mediocrity. Also keep in mind that mediocrity is never static: the standard must keep on ever-lowering, so you have to keep on going with that flow (until the pendulum has to swing back up... eventually...).

Amongst the milonga-'elites' (or if you are sure that you are considered to have high status: ie the 'Ultimate Men' will want to naturally defer to you), either of the other two personae will be more useful, according to their personae ('Superman' for snobs, 'Immortal' for the both talented and good-as-people ones): but be mindful that many apparent-not-'Ultimate-Men' really are! They're the very dangerous ones (especially the ones who pretend to be good-as-people... and actually believe that they are)!

'Superman' is best for mastering the art, since you'll need to step beyond the safe and familiar, challenge and break rules etc. If you also have a 'Superman' DP then lucky you - if not, then this is what you do on your own, being careful about what you apply and when and with whom on the floor. It is an approach of Power: some partners will be scared, some (most?) will want to bring the 'high and mighty' crashing down broken (unless 'he' has high status), some will find this exciting etc. Only use on the dancefloor where you're 'sure' of your partner's reaction.

'Immortal' is best for the dance itself (barring a masochistic partner), since it involves empathy/being non-judgemental, and supreme-adaptability with no attachment to preferences (so you can have a not-second-best dance, regardless of partner's choice of embrace, 'style', music-type etc). Flow like water, bend like saplings, be an empty vessel etc etc. Pure TA!:D Glide over the floor as 'one not stained by earthly dust'.

Honour is also very intrinsic to this path/persona, and there is (or should be) an unspoken but sacred contract between the partners (and fellow couples), which has to be honourably abided by completely. Since it is a useful honour it will be respected in that tiny 'otherworld' that is the dance - though honour will be furiously attacked/punished/exploited by the 'Ultimate Men' back in the 'macroworld' if you try to show that quality there (even when it's completely against their interests to do so: the programming is too deep...:().

[Peaches]

Is it just me, or is this going back to a similar debate that came up in another thread--the idea of being authentic "versus" being nice. Or however you want to phrase it.

Un-friggin'-believable. *shakes head in wonder*

[Zoopsia59]

I understand it to mean akin to the ideas conveyed in "Being Genuine: Stop Being Nice, Start Being Real" by Thomas D'ansembourg (Author) : "In this English translation of the French bestseller, readers will learn simple, practical skills to step outside of their emotional masks to live a genuine, authentic life. Teaching everyday communication skills to respectfully express true feelings and the power of requesting wants without demands or force, readers learn how to tackle life's difficult situations and conversations with ease and even excitement. Topics include ideas and advice on how to identify feelings and needs without blaming others, honest and respectful self-expression, facing conflict with ease, and finding balance by staying connected to basic needs."

"nice" just dont cut it on the dance floor

This is equating "nice" with being a doormat. No one has suggested that anyone be a doormat just to avoid being rude.

It seems to me the whole point is about having enough self-respect to honor yourself without disrespecting others.

That's not at all the same as being a snob or rude and hiding behind the claim of "discerning".

[Zoopsia59]

Is it just me, or is this going back to a similar debate that came up in another thread--the idea of being authentic "versus" being nice. Or however you want to phrase it.

Un-friggin'-believable. *shakes head in wonder*

Yes... I'm shaking my head too... it's just a repeat of the "to have decency, respect and manners means being a fake, untrue to yourself, and lacking in self-respect" debate. :rolleyes:

[SD]

Originally Posted by SD
I . Anyone who behaves politely because they are told to do so by an authority may become a sort of very pleasant type person to be around. They may be quite sociable and sort of well liked by all to a point. But they will never become a leader. As a dancer they will always be mediocre if that, never doing anything that might make anyone uncomfortable or taking any risks... and thus never learning much new.

I have no idea what that means. Is the poster saying that if one is not an *** then one can never be a leader? Ridiculous.emphasis added

Quite understandable, as the point was presented briefly, nearly to the point of flippantcy.

The important part must be gleaned by context; It concerns an individuals motivation for behavior. All of us may be happier if certain individuals restrained themselves from acting like an ass at milonga. If I were host of a milonga I might feel compelled to give certain instructions on decorum, just as if I were moderator of a discussion forum I might feel compelled to do the same. However, my experience has led me to understand the limitations of such exhortations. Hence my response to the Original Post differs a bit from yours, perhaps not in it's desired outcome, but certainly in form. You instruct, I ask a question.

.... Is the poster saying that if one is not an *** then one can never be a leader? Ridiculous.

One can be a the leader in the sense of the role on the dance floor, walking with the follower in front of him. And one can be a leader in the sense that one's presence in a place, and one's actions, are source of great reassurance to other people, and others are grateful for one's presence and seek to emulate those behaviors.

I believe that the second quality is not present in men at birth, and that the process of developing it inevitably entails making an ass of oneself at some point. First you do the thing. Then you get the courage. Anyone unwilling to risk making an ass of themselves is severely constrained in their actions.

:cool:

[dchester]

emphasis added

Quite understandable, as the point was presented briefly, nearly to the point of flippantcy.

The important part must be gleaned by context; It concerns an individuals motivation for behavior. All of us may be happier if certain individuals restrained themselves from acting like an ass at milonga. If I were host of a milonga I might feel compelled to give certain instructions on decorum, just as if I were moderator of a discussion forum I might feel compelled to do the same. However, my experience has led me to understand the limitations of such exhortations. Hence my response to the Original Post differs a bit from yours, perhaps not in it's desired outcome, but certainly in form. You instruct, I ask a question.

One can be a the leader in the sense of the role on the dance floor, walking with the follower in front of him. And one can be a leader in the sense that one's presence in a place, and one's actions, are source of great reassurance to other people, and others are grateful for one's presence and seek to emulate those behaviors.

I believe that the second quality is not present in men at birth, and that the process of developing it inevitably entails making an ass of oneself at some point. First you do the thing. Then you get the courage. Anyone unwilling to risk making an ass of themselves is severely constrained in their actions.

:cool:
The thing about the motivation for behavior, I guess don't have an issue with. I just don't think being a leader requires that you be a jerk. Also, it can depend on what type of leader we are talking about (or what he is trying to lead). Being a leader in the military, is different from being a leader in one's community, which is also different from being a leader in tango.

I'll concede that in some settings, being a leader might require that you are willing to risk looking like a jerk (or upsetting some people), but that (at least to me) is quite different from actually being a jerk.

[Zoopsia59]

one can be a leader in the sense that one's presence in a place, and one's actions, are source of great reassurance to other people, and others are grateful for one's presence and seek to emulate those behaviors.

I believe that the second quality is not present in men at birth, and that the process of developing it inevitably entails making an ass of oneself at some point.
:cool:

I disagree. I believe there are people who are natural leaders (speaking generally, not dance specific) Perhaps it is only the ones who don't have that natural ability who have to make an ass of themselves as they "learn" leadership skills.

However, people are obviously born with different strengths and talents. Leadership is one of those talents. Some people naturally inspire others to follow them, and others need to study Dale Carnegie to get any ability at all. Some people just can't do it no matter how hard they try.. it's just not part of their nature.

It's like any other natural strength or ability.

(BTW - as long as we've strayed far off topic a number of times already, there's an interesting set of books by Marcus Buckingham about focusing your energy on developing your strengths rather than trying to overcome your weaknesses... there are several "themes" in his list of strengths that are typical of successful leaders. Therefore, IMO there is such a thing as a natural tendency and ability for leadership. I suspect that the people who have to make an ass of themselves trying to develop leadership abilities are perhaps not naturally suited to leadership, as you say.. But I would go further and suggest that maybe they shouldn't be trying so hard to be something that they aren't suited for... just food for thought)

[v22TTC]

Yes... I'm shaking my head too... it's just a repeat of the "to have decency, respect and manners means being a fake, untrue to yourself, and lacking in self-respect" debate. :rolleyes:

That's not what I, for one, am saying: if you are a naturally good and polite (and generous etc) person then it is authentic to be so -you will suffer a terrible dissonance if you are not those things.

It is also possible to achieve excellence if you are such a person.

If you were in a culture that valued such qualities - or had an infinite ability to move from place to place - then it wouldn't be anything to discuss.

Buut, if you are trapped in a culture (and therefore massively outnumbered/'outpowered', with no options to keep moving to somewhere else) that only pays lip-service to the desirability of these qualities; whilst actually methodically and relentlessly attacking those with such qualities (in a completely merciless 'You lose everything!' way), just for the craic, just coz they can, just coz they watched the wrong drama on TV the night before, just as displacement... then a rational being has to perform a 'profit/loss' calculation (eventually, once the damage has become too much, and remaining options too few), and amend approach accordingly.

Then the being less polite, good, generous etc is inauthentic - but it is necessary.

The question then is: 'What is the minimum that I can walk down that road (for defensive appearances only), whilst remaining me, and causing minimal (ideally no) harm?'

It's easy to roll your eyes when you're not the one in this situation....

Again - none of this has any place whatsoever on the dancefloor itself: no room for baggage there.

[Zoopsia59]

Again - none of this has any place whatsoever on the dancefloor itself: no room for baggage there.


Then what on earth are we talking about?

[v22TTC]

Then what on earth are we talking about?

Because it has relevance to the environment surrounding the dancefloor... if we all just teleported on and off it, it wouldn't matter.

[bordertangoman]

Is it just me, or is this going back to a similar debate that came up in another thread--the idea of being authentic "versus" being nice. Or however you want to phrase it.

Un-friggin'-believable. *shakes head in wonder*

I feel sad that you dont think this is of value?

"Tango can be danced to any music that inspires
it in dancers. It is a purely subjective and personal thing, but individuals my
find tango inspiration in a variety of music genres outside the traditional
genre." I agree with this viewpoint. I would rather someone danced with feeling to a piece of music that inspires them than to a piece of music that happens to be from Argentina at a particular moment in time. That is what i regard as a person being authentic

a snob could be the opposite of this; someone who regards the Authenticity
(cultural/temporal) of the music as more important than how he or she is responds to it.

[dchester]

a snob could be the opposite of this; someone who regards the Authenticity
(cultural/temporal) of the music as more important than how he or she is responds to it.
Maybe we are not talking about the same thing. Here is a definition of snob, which is pretty close to what I was thinking of. Possibly the word has other meanings that I'm not aware of.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snob

Definition of SNOB


British : cobbler (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cobbler)
: one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors
a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste

Examples of SNOB


Most of the people in the club are snobs who look down on people who attended public schools.
Don't be such a snob.

[ant]

Originally Posted by bordertangoman http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=822812#post822812)
a snob could be the opposite of this; someone who regards the Authenticity
(cultural/temporal) of the music as more important than how he or she is responds to it.



Maybe we are not talking about the same thing. Here is a definition of snob, which is pretty close to what I was thinking of. Possibly the word has other meanings that I'm not aware of.

- one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social(ly) superior (s)
- one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior

- one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste
bold my changes


If you change the reference from "those" to "music" I think you are getting pretty close to what I understood BTM's post to mean.

[bordertangoman]

@ Dchester put the two together:



a snob could be the opposite of this; someone who regards the Authenticity
(cultural/temporal) of the music as more important than how he or she is responds to it.

ie thinks dancing to anything other than Golden Age or Gardia Vieja is inferior...


a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste

[Steve Pastor]

If you change the reference from "those" to "music" I think you are getting pretty close to what I understood BTM's post to mean.

Perhaps, but music does not perceive that it is being ignored or being thought of as inferior. People on the other hand, may perceive that they are being ignored or being thought of as inferior, even if that isn't what someone has in mind when they exhibit a certain behavior.
This is what makes the whole "snob" issue sort of "fuzzy".

[dchester]

Perhaps, but music does not perceive that it is being ignored or being thought of as inferior. People on the other hand, may perceive that they are being ignored or being thought of as inferior, even if that isn't what someone has in mind when they exhibit a certain behavior.
This is what makes the whole "snob" issue sort of "fuzzy".
Yes, that's the way I looked at it as well. Having discriminating tastes (like in music) is not at all the same as being a snob. I always thought, part of being a snob is being offensive and/or disdainful. I wonder if across the pond, the word has a more positive connotation than it has here.

[Zoopsia59]

I feel sad that you dont think this is of value?

"Tango can be danced to any music that inspires
it in dancers. It is a purely subjective and personal thing, but individuals my
find tango inspiration in a variety of music genres outside the traditional
genre." I agree with this viewpoint. I would rather someone danced with feeling to a piece of music that inspires them than to a piece of music that happens to be from Argentina at a particular moment in time. That is what i regard as a person being authentic

a snob could be the opposite of this; someone who regards the Authenticity
(cultural/temporal) of the music as more important than how he or she is responds to it.

I think you completely missed the point of Peaches post... it had to do with behavior of people towards partners, not attitude towards music. After all, that was the previous discussion that she is referencing, I believe.

[SD]

Yes, that's the way I looked at it as well. Having discriminating tastes (like in music) is not at all the same as being a snob. I always thought, part of being a snob is being offensive and/or disdainful. I wonder if across the pond, the word has a more positive connotation than it has here.

Just having discriminating tastes does not make you a snob. If you enjoy music, or food, or life in general, then you will be always curious to discover what other people like, to find new things and to share your passion by connecting with other people.

A snob does none of these things, because he really prefers to separate and distinguish himself from other people. The disdain for other people's tastes is inherent in the definition of the word snob. There has to be some value scale implied.

It doesn't matter whether it is a soccer hooligan making fun of a guy on his way to the opera, or whether it is a wine snob recoiling in disgust when a neighbor offers him a Pabst Blue Ribbon, the same emotions are at work.

If Milongadicto's blog was solely concerned with discerning his favorite tango music and favorite examples of tango and musicality, then it wouldn't be about a tango snob. If you read his latest blog post it is even more clear that the unifying and dominant theme is his disdain for other people, and anger toward them. I need not supply any quotes; he is quite explicit.

The only thing that makes it of any interest to read and not just another venom filled rant is that he is perhaps just a tiny bit conflicted, and more than a little bit dissatisfied. He doesn't like being a snob. So he may learn something from the experience. I tend to like being a snob, so it is harder for me to see my fears and insecurities that underlie the gratification I get out of feeling superior to the teeming masses.

-SD

[Zoopsia59]

If you change the reference from "those" to "music" I think you are getting pretty close to what I understood BTM's post to mean.

I also think that is what BTM was talking about... but I'm not sure that any of the rest of us are talking about that. Wasn't the initial post about being a snob towards PEOPLE who aren't good enough dancers and whether that is being a snob or being discerning?

How did it become about being preferring one sort of music over another? How can one treat music rudely? The whole idea is about how one relates to and treats PEOPLE.

[Zoopsia59]

Definition of SNOB


: one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors
a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste



Interesting to note that this is also part of the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder....

[Zoopsia59]

Perhaps, but music does not perceive that it is being ignored or being thought of as inferior. People on the other hand, may perceive that they are being ignored or being thought of as inferior, even if that isn't what someone has in mind when they exhibit a certain behavior.
This is what makes the whole "snob" issue sort of "fuzzy".

Beat me to it... the music doesn't perceive rudeness or bad manners.

[Zoopsia59]

prefers to separate and distinguish himself from other people. The disdain for other people's tastes is inherent in the definition of the word snob. There has to be some value scale implied. the unifying and dominant theme is his disdain for other people, and anger toward them.

And again, the diagnostic criteria for NPD leaps to mind. Add in the need for admiration from others, the grandiose self-view often not backed up with actual knowledge or credential, and the exaggeration to the point of outright fabrication, and you're there.

[ant]

music is being ignored or being thought of as inferior.

The way I thought of it was a snob thinks in terms of ignoring or thinking of something as inferior because of the way they look at life and do it irrespective of their true feelings. Using this as your basis you can relate the definition of snob to anything that such behavior may apply too, both animate and inanimate.


Originally Posted by Zoopsia59
How did it become about being preferring one sort of music over another? How can one treat music rudely? The whole idea is about how one relates to and treats PEOPLE.

Further back in the discussion snobbish behavior was compared to making hard decisions. Relating that to a persons behavior I felt that where a person was being guided by their true feelings, even though that may appear to snobbish behavior, it was not.
Then relating this principle to music if a persons reaction to the music they hear is due to their feeling for the music even if it appears to be snobbish it is not.
So two people hear the same piece of music and make exactly the same negetive comment that may be considered snobbish. If for one that music really was an abonimation to their ears then their behavior would not be snobbish but if the other felt that was the right thing to say, so to speak, even though they though the music was OK, then that would be snobbish.

Hence it appears to me that what was being asked was, what was the motive behind the thoughts and comments of the possible snob, rather than the actions and words per se.

[jfm]

People can do what they want. It would be nice if everyone teated everyone else with respect etc. but they don't. One can be a snob, it's one's own choice, but expecting none else to care is bit arrogant. People at my scene occasionally moan about the teachers/in crowd setting them sleves apart and only dancing with each other, but I'm not interested. Most of them don't look to be much cop anyway and I'd rather enjoy the milonga as a social occasion with dancing thrown in. Chances are not mny people have even noticed milongadicto's transformation.

[Zoopsia59]

Chances are not mny people have even noticed milongadicto's transformation.

My memory is that in one of his posts on this subject he said that they have noticed. (might have been the other thread)

[jfm]

That is only his perception and it may only be one or two people who he used to dance with. We're not getting reality here, we are getting his perception of reality. Totally different.