for the guys: dating & ballroom

[tbayneil]

I know too many women who dance and have boyfriends/husbands who are somewhere around the mindset of "she dances; whatever, what's on tv?" Women are allowed to post advice, though.

I am an amateur guy who takes this seriously but doesn't want to go pro, and am exiting that "dark period" where I dare not mention that I do this to anyone I date... many insecure women forget it, but there is that magical quarter-second between when women don't want to do ballroom dancing lest they be laughed at and when they want the best in the world, everyone else be damned to hell, including me. Or so I was quickly told.

That being said, now that I'm better, I'm curious... how to go about this? Things start off quickly with joint lessons, yet these include someone telling the guy everything that is wrong with him and him agreeing and passively correcting himself, which kind of disrupts the whole "STRONG MAN" attractiveness. I pay to learn, not to pick up.

That ALSO being said, most women who don't do this and don't want to put in the effort also don't want a guy paying large amounts of attention to other women. It's sick, creepy, severe jealously, and it's a crime against humanity that should be tried in front of the Hague. But, yet, first quarter of a second they try it, they want it all.

So, men, how to approach the relationship part?

I'm in a thin bracket where I live... but I wouldn't give a woman a chance who didn't like it.

PS - women out there - your pro partner compensates for your shortcomings. Very, very few pro partners lead properly and make you follow properly.... most of you are over-compesated for :)

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

I know too many women who dance and have boyfriends/husbands who are somewhere around the mindset of "she dances; whatever, what's on tv?" Women are allowed to post advice, though.

I am an amateur guy who takes this seriously but doesn't want to go pro, and am exiting that "dark period" where I dare not mention that I do this to anyone I date... many insecure women forget it, but there is that magical quarter-second between when women don't want to do ballroom dancing lest they be laughed at and when they want the best in the world, everyone else be damned to hell, including me. Or so I was quickly told.

That being said, now that I'm better, I'm curious... how to go about this? Things start off quickly with joint lessons, yet these include someone telling the guy everything that is wrong with him and him agreeing and passively correcting himself, which kind of disrupts the whole "STRONG MAN" attractiveness. I pay to learn, not to pick up.

That ALSO being said, most women who don't do this and don't want to put in the effort also don't want a guy paying large amounts of attention to other women. It's sick, creepy, severe jealously, and it's a crime against humanity that should be tried in front of the Hague. But, yet, first quarter of a second they try it, they want it all.

So, men, how to approach the relationship part?

I'm in a thin bracket where I live... but I wouldn't give a woman a chance who didn't like it.

PS - women out there - your pro partner compensates for your shortcomings. Very, very few pro partners lead properly and make you follow properly.... most of you are over-compesated for :)
I agree that male pro's over compensate as well as female pro's are known
to back lead male students as well. Can you imagine what the dance world would be like if people weren't schmoozing the students into thinking that they are better than they really are and just teach

[fascination]

tbayneil...we have an environment here of not overgeneralizing and avoiding inflammatory remarks...you have painted women in your post with some fairly broad and unflattering brushstrokes...and you are not likely to get very favorable responses that way...not only that, your post sounds wandering and venting rather than asking a very particular question...and I would suggest that all of that has much more to do with your relationship woes than does being an Am guy...please do take the time to read our guidelines and endeavor to take the tone on this forum to heart...as it can be a very warm place under those circumstances....and welcome

[fascination]

I agree that male pro's over compensate as well as female pro's are known
to back lead male students as well. Can you imagine what the dance world would be like if people weren't schmoozing the students into thinking that they are better than they really are and just teach
while this happens and I agree that some folks are looking for that and it keeps alot of folks emplyed, I think it is a gross over generalization...I for one have never been under any false illusions about when I am being helped and when I am moving on my own....and, beyond that, I don't think much of that has a thing to do with the problems this poster is facing...


as a side note;
this thread will not become a pro-am vent thread...as we have enough of those

[waltzgirl]

I don't understand what you're talking about.

Are you saying that you only want to date women who are willing to also be your dance partner? And when you find a girlfriend/dance partner, there are tensions in the relationship when you dance together?

If so, yeah, that's pretty much to be expected. It's very hard to combine those two different kinds of relationships. There have been many threads on the topic, as well as threads on problems of jealousy when one person in a romantic relationship dances and the other doesn't. Maybe one of the mods can find some for you.

P.S. Don't go there. We have had many trainwrecks (er, I mean threads) with people arguing that kind of thing about pro-am dancers. It's insulting and untrue in most cases. Feel free to browse those threads, too. I don't think anyone wants to rehash those very stale arguments.

[fascination]

were we posting simultaneously ?

[waltzgirl]

Yes. There were no responses when I wrote and posted mine.

[waltzguy]

I have read OP's post and do not clearly understand what the question or issue is. Perhaps it's my denseness in the late night.

[fascination]

I think that if three people are confused it is fairly likely that the post needs to be streamlined a bit for clarity

[biggestbox]

Dance is dance, relationships are relationships

if you like your partner or maybe even someone else's partner, ask them out for a drink, not a dance or to "practice."

[samina]

tbayneil, welcome to DF.

are you saying that you have been taking private lessons with women you are dating, that you bring them to group lessons, or just commenting on what it's like to navigate meeting women for dating in the course of group lessons? i have some experience in navigating the dance world as a single person and can comment, but am not sure what your circumstances are.

whichever the case, tread with care because the dance world is small, and perhaps even smaller where you live (i'm a recent transplant to that area from NJ where there's a heckuva lotta more dance going on and it's *still* a small dance world). i've seen how quickly sloppy dating in the dance world can complicate life, so my advice on that subject: become very clear about what you want, become very comfortable with that, and don't take any action that conflicts. what i gather from your post is that you likely have some inner/personal work to do to gain that clarity & comfort.

as for jealousy... just be clear that it's not something you wish to support and don't make a big deal out of it. some women (and some men) are very sensitive about this, and they don't need to become your project or something to rail against. just very politely don't get involved with those for whom that is an issue.

this is a tricky subject, overall, and you are not alone in being frustrated by it. we do have a number of good threads established on it, IIRC.

[Joe]

I have read OP's post and do not clearly understand what the question or issue is. Perhaps it's my denseness in the late night.
Your late night denseness must be the same as my early morning denseness!

[Lioness]

I think he's saying that he doesn't feel comfortable asking women out because as soon as they realise that he dances, they immediately assume he must want to dance with other women.

I'd say, to break it to the potential girlfriends..."Hey, by the way, I do [insert dance here]. Wanna come along to a lesson with me and try it out?"

[samina]

I'd say, to break it to the potential girlfriends..."Hey, by the way, I do [insert dance here]. Wanna come along to a lesson with me and try it out?"

using dance lessons as part of dating seems to me a very, very, very bad idea. it's the ultimate "shiting where one eats". :rolleyes:

imagine how quickly a rep someone would get in the dance community..."oop, here comes another one... i wonder how long she'll last!" and, worse, if the ladies all get hooked and stay in the community, even when the relationship doesn't take off or goes south. now all the newbs are being introduced directly into the elephant graveyard of those that came before. messsssy! :)

IME, choosing to date a dancer is best preceded with eyes wide open on both parties and some considerable discussion about how both intend to handle the situation, both during the active relationship as well as after. and that takes some knowledge and experience in both people. newbs would have no idea what they'd be getting into. and i would imagine that jealousy would be a standard issue for them to deal with, as well. that alone is a tough thing to introduce to someone who's unfamiliar with partnership social dancing.

[Lioness]

using dance lessons as part of dating seems to me a very, very, very bad idea. it's the ultimate "shiting where one eats". :rolleyes:

imagine how quickly a rep someone would get in the dance community..."oop, here comes another one... i wonder how long she'll last!" and, worse, if the ladies all get hooked and stay in the community, even when the relationship doesn't take off or goes south. now all the newbs are being introduced directly into the elephant graveyard of those that came before. messsssy! :)

IME, choosing to date a dancer is best preceded with eyes wide open on both parties and some considerable discussion about how both intend to handle the situation, both during the active relationship as well as after. and that takes some knowledge and experience in both people. newbs would have no idea what they'd be getting into. and i would imagine that jealousy would be a standard issue for them to deal with, as well. that alone is a tough thing to introduce to someone who's unfamiliar with partnership social dancing.

I guess I saw it as a possible way he could let the ladies know that it's not going to be threatening to a relationship (unless it is, in which case...)

I see the other side of it though too...he could definitely come across as flighty and in it for the girls.

I confess, though, I wasn't really sure what the OP's post actually said. I was just taking a stab in the dark.

[fascination]

my thought is that unless he cares to come back and clarify, he may just have said what he needed to say and can now let it drop...which is probably just as well :)

[jump'n'jive]

i'm sorry, i'm gonna have to ask you to repeat the question ;)

[danceronice]

Your late night denseness must be the same as my early morning denseness!

Or my mid-morning second-cup-of-coffee denseness.

Though if this were FSU, the last paragraph would mean we'd all just be breaking out the popcorn-eating smilies and waiting for the next flame war to start, because way to alienate people, OP.

[samina]

I guess I saw it as a possible way he could let the ladies know that it's not going to be threatening to a relationship
good point, lioness. and you're right...it could very well be a threatening influence. ;)

[Piggles]

...you have painted women in your post with some fairly broad and unflattering brushstrokes...and you are not likely to get very favorable responses that way...

Phew! It's not just me; I could feel those pregnancy-related hormones kicking into high gear. :)

[3wishes]

Tbayneil askes the gents how to go about.....yet in the 3rd paragraph is a clear statement of "pay to learn" "not to pick up". While I have years of untangling political jargon and bureaucratic ease - there are so many vague implied broad statements, directed at the potential follows and the quarter second of time - possibly pertaining only to the follows Tbayneil has actually danced with or exposed to - that the direction of his question in terms of what do the gents do at this given point in time -leaves one wondering - why the question in the first place. Especially if your paying to learn and not pick up.

[ash_sk8s]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was very confused as to what the question was...

[fascination]

Or my mid-morning second-cup-of-coffee denseness.

Though if this were FSU, the last paragraph would mean we'd all just be breaking out the popcorn-eating smilies and waiting for the next flame war to start, because way to alienate people, OP.
nah...we aren't going to do that to a new member...and I am fairly certain he feels uncomfortable enough about it at this juncture...so I am thinking it would be lovely if we just let it go...since he has :)

[Joe]

using dance lessons as part of dating seems to me a very, very, very bad idea. it's the ultimate "shiting where one eats". :rolleyes:

How did this not get caught by the filters? :confused:

[davedove]

And yet you hear stories all the time about how people met at a social. Plus, what about all the professionals who first met as competitive dance partners.

Still, I suspect these people didn't go dancing with that in mind, but rather the relationship just happened.

[j_alexandra]

How did this not get caught by the filters? :confused:

Probably b/c of the misspelling?

[Joe]

Yeah but "Livshitz" always got filtered.

Edit: Weird. I guess not any more.

[fascination]

perhaps the filter had not had enough coffee that morning....am sure sam will take greater care next time :)

[ash_sk8s]

Or my mid-morning second-cup-of-coffee denseness.

Though if this were FSU, the last paragraph would mean we'd all just be breaking out the popcorn-eating smilies and waiting for the next flame war to start, because way to alienate people, OP.

That's for sure. FSU is crazy.

[waltzgirl]

What is FSU?

[Warren J. Dew]

So, men, how to approach the relationship part?

Clearly, from the rest of the responses to this thread, it's impossible for men to simultaneously dance and have a relationship; you must give up on one or the other.

Personally, though, I'm happily married to someone I introduced to ballroom, so it must have been possible at one time. What worked for me was first to get good enough that I could lead a woman who had never danced before through basic material, then take her out to social dances not connected to any studio.

If she gets good enough and interested enough, it can become an activity that you do together.

[samina]

Probably b/c of the misspelling?

not misspelling, britishism. clearly the filters don't speak brit. ;)

i've always gathered that the northern UK "shite" didn't have the obscenity of its US counterpart, not unlike how the word "fanny" is utterly benign stateside but quite vulgar across the pond. mebbe i've been mistaken, but a dictionary.com reference seems to agree with me: "now a jocular or slightly euphemistic variant, formerly a dialectal variant".

/linquistic hijack :)

[samina]

Clearly, from the rest of the responses to this thread, it's impossible for men to simultaneously dance and have a relationship; you must give up on one or the other.

i certainly have suggested no such thing.

[fascination]

I think most people didn't understand the question well enough to make that sort of declaration

[danceronice]

Yes, I still am not sure where the OP was going with it.

Waltzgirl--FSU=Figure Skating Universe and their forums. While it's certainly not a free-for-all it's definitely not as tightly moderated. Also, people tend to spend the off-season rehashing the same arguments over and over, and by same old I mean like the thread that recently turned into a rehash of the 1998 Ladies' program.

We have a smilie over there that's a smilie eating popcorn--that's when a thread's either a wreck, or we're going to get some good rumors!

[Joe]

Florida State University!

[j_alexandra]

We have a smilie over there that's a smilie eating popcorn--that's when a thread's either a wreck, or we're going to get some good rumors!

and123 had that smilie here. I always got a kick out of it.

[CANI]

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Holleigh-berri/popcorn.gif It is a great one!

[HopefulNaiive]

I actually do understand the original question, at least I think so. It appears that tbayneil considers himself as a high level dancer, almost ready to go pro. There was nothing said about pro-am, but his problem is that once he starts dating women who are new to dancing, they (women) immediately want to try dancing as well, which is natural, I think. The issue becomes clear when women fall in love with dancing (also natural), start taking lessons with tbayneil, and soon realize that he is much better dancer than they would ever be. It seems that women then start feel uncomfortable in the relationship, because they want to be worshiped (as dancers), and tbayneil can't provide that being an honest guy who can't worship something that doesn't deserve being worshiped, so the relationship falls apart. He is asking advice on how to keep the relationship going in this situation.

Once again, this is just my interpretation of the original post.

[waltzgirl]

I actually do understand the original question, at least I think so. It appears that tbayneil considers himself as a high level dancer, almost ready to go pro. There was nothing said about pro-am, but his problem is that once he starts dating women who are new to dancing, they (women) immediately want to try dancing as well, which is natural, I think. The issue becomes clear when women fall in love with dancing (also natural), start taking lessons with tbayneil, and soon realize that he is much better dancer than they would ever be. It seems that women then start feel uncomfortable in the relationship, because they want to be worshiped (as dancers), and tbayneil can't provide that being an honest guy who can't worship something that doesn't deserve being worshiped, so the relationship falls apart. He is asking advice on how to keep the relationship going in this situation.

Once again, this is just my interpretation of the original post.


Well, if you are right, then the answer is obvious: don't do that! OP is just asksing for trouble if he assumes the role of instructor to his girlfriends. If someone he is dating wants to learn to dance, send her to a good instructor and dance with her at socials the way you would (should) dance with any beginner--simply, generously, and non-critically.

[danceronice]

I actually do understand the original question, at least I think so. It appears that tbayneil considers himself as a high level dancer, almost ready to go pro. There was nothing said about pro-am, but his problem is that once he starts dating women who are new to dancing, they (women) immediately want to try dancing as well, which is natural, I think. The issue becomes clear when women fall in love with dancing (also natural), start taking lessons with tbayneil, and soon realize that he is much better dancer than they would ever be. It seems that women then start feel uncomfortable in the relationship, because they want to be worshiped (as dancers), and tbayneil can't provide that being an honest guy who can't worship something that doesn't deserve being worshiped, so the relationship falls apart. He is asking advice on how to keep the relationship going in this situation.

Once again, this is just my interpretation of the original post.



PS - women out there - your pro partner compensates for your shortcomings. Very, very few pro partners lead properly and make you follow properly.... most of you are over-compesated for

So he was either commenting on am women dancing with pros (pro/am) or female pros. Either way, an uncomplimentary statement. Especially phrasing it in such a way to target the ladies at DF.

Your interpretation, he doesn't come off that well either. I don't know many women who want to be "worshiped" for their dance ability. Or guys who are "honest" with the women they date by saying "Yeah, I'm good, you're not, and the men who dance are allowing for your inadequacies." At least not men who want to be dating her for long.

Unless he comes back and clarifies I don't think we know what he meant by any of it.

[Warren J. Dew]

I actually do understand the original question, at least I think so. It appears that tbayneil considers himself as a high level dancer, almost ready to go pro. There was nothing said about pro-am, but his problem is that once he starts dating women who are new to dancing, they (women) immediately want to try dancing as well, which is natural, I think. The issue becomes clear when women fall in love with dancing (also natural), start taking lessons with tbayneil, and soon realize that he is much better dancer than they would ever be. It seems that women then start feel uncomfortable in the relationship, because they want to be worshiped (as dancers), and tbayneil can't provide that being an honest guy who can't worship something that doesn't deserve being worshiped, so the relationship falls apart. He is asking advice on how to keep the relationship going in this situation.

So if that's your interpretation, how about giving some useful advice for that situation?

Well, if you are right, then the answer is obvious: don't do that! OP is just asksing for trouble if he assumes the role of instructor to his girlfriends. If someone he is dating wants to learn to dance, send her to a good instructor and dance with her at socials the way you would (should) dance with any beginner--simply, generously, and non-critically.

That wouldn't solve the problem of letting her feel worshipped, in HopefulNaiive's interpretation.

[waltzguy]

Too many interpretations and misunderstandings going on in this whole thread.

[atk]

Too many interpretations and misunderstandings going on in this whole thread.


Agreed. It might be helpful if the OP were to chime in and clarify his concerns...

[wonderwoman]

Its intimidating as a non-dancer to date someone who dances. I dated three pro ballroom dancers before I ever started to learn myself. They weren't interested in teaching me and I was too underconfident anyway. Then you get to hearing about their exes who are also pro.... Then you get to hearing about pros who fall for and marry their students.

Add to the perceived high level of competition for their attention the perceived difference in grace or coolness or charisma or whatever qualities non-dancers sometimes automatically grant to someone who can dance well. Straight away you're thought of as out of someones league just because of a hobby that you have.

Then, for us girls, even if we date a non-dancer, he thinks to impress us he needs to learn. He doesn't want to take lessons, he wants you to teach him. He feels bad when you say you can't, even though truthfully its because you just don't know how to lead/do the man's parts. So now he has something like performance anxiety or feels like you have no chemistry together.

Sorry, very bitter today.