Proficiency Point Rules: The Mystery!

[Kitty]

As it has been pointed out, many people have their own interpretation of USABDA eligibility rules.
Who knows what are the actual rules for accumulating points? And are they the same for USABDA and YCN?

[pygmalion]

Thanks for asking, kitty. I was wondering. :)

[Chris Stratton]

From the USABDA rulebook:

4.5.2.1. A CLASSIFICATION PROFICIENCY POINT is awarded to Amateur Athletes at Recognized Competitions who either:

a) Place first in their current classification if a semi-final was danced.

b) Place first, second or third in any higher proficiency level of the same age group and style if a semi-final was danced.

c) Danced in the finals of any higher proficiency level of the same age group and style if a quarter-final was danced.

Under the USABDA system, you place out of a level once you have accumulated 3 points in it. Somewhere else it mentions that you also place out of a level by winning it at USABDA Nationals - ie, Nationals is worth 3 points. "Recognized Competition" currently means anything with a USABDA or NDCA sanction - unsanctioned college comps don't count.
Given the frequent lack of semifinals, people accumulate USABDA points _very_ slowly.

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YCN/NECN or collegiate points are a fairly different system. Here you can dance in a level until you earn 7 points, but they are easier to get.

from memory:

a) if a semifinal was danced, 1st place gets you 3 points, 2nd place 2 points, and 3rd place one point

b) if a quarterfinal was danced, 4-6th places also earn you 1 point.

c) Points earned in one level are worth twice as much in the next level down, and 7 points in every level below that. So earning one point in gold counts as 2 in silver, and 7 in bronze.

d) Regardless of all these details, if you have placed out of a level under the USABDA/NDCA system you are not allowed to dance that level under the collegiate system either.

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Here's where it gets complicated:

Collegiate points are generally calculated based on the results of all the organized but unsanctioned college comps someone has entered. Many people have also done USABDA or NDCA adult comps, and there is a disagreement about how to handle that. The people USABDA appointed to advise YCN say that 1 USABDA point should translate as 1 YCN point. But a lot of the collegiate teams (who as comp organizers hold the only real power) think that makes no sense as it's a lot harder to earn points at an adult comp than at a collegiate one. Instead, for the purposes of elgibiliity at something like the MIT comp, you have to calculate collegiate points for your USABDA and NDCA placings as if they had been collegiate comps (so, first gets you 3 points, not 1).

Hang on, we're not done yet:

There are also a few collegiate competitions, such as Harvard and sometimes BU, which base elgibility decisions on USABDA/NDCA points, rather than collegiate points. But because these competitions are not sanctioned by either of those bodies, they cannot award points under that system. So you could theoretically win a category every year at Harvard and never place out of it. Despite the fact that these comps don't look at collegiate points, the other collegiate comps consider placing at them to award collegiate points.

[Laura]

Chris has got the situation covered, but let me just add one tiny thing: not all USABDA competitions are point-granting. My club runs three per year that are "club level." We run them under USABDA rules, but we don't have a sanction to grant points. We purposely have these small, low key comps so as to give people a training ground for moving on to higher levels of competition.

I believe that a point-granting competition in USABDA is required to state somewhere in their promotional and registration materials that it is in fact a point-granting event.

One more thing: I keep running into people who mistakenly think that they can't move up until they've earned the three points. That is not true at all. You can dance at any higher level you want. The points are just there to make people who have achieved something on a lower level move on up. You don't have to start at Bronze, you don't have to work your way up through the syllabus levels. It's all up to you, your partner, and hopefully your coach will have some good input too.

[Chris Stratton]

Hmm, would a New England collegiate comp consider NorCal's club competition to award collegiate points????

(The decision on something like this is made by the comp that one is trying to determine elgibility for, though the way the comps being examined characterize themselves would be a factor)

[Laura]

In my opinion Chris, they should not. So come out here in January and visit us (that's when our next non-point-granting comp is). Or come in November, for our first-ever California State Amateur DanceSport Championships :-) It's open to all comers, as far as I know. (It grants points, though.)

[pygmalion]

Holy cow! With all due respect, no wonder there's an occasional dispute. Those are some long and complicated rules. :?

[Kitty]

What about this one, it always gets me confused:

If a person places in one of the dances, does it grant as many points under YCN as winning a multidance event?

So if I place third in bronse cha-cha, and then rumba, and then jive at the same comp, would I earn three times as many points as if I placed in a tree-dance event cha/rumba/jive?

[Chris Stratton]

Under both collegiate and adult systems you track points in each dance individually.

So for example, you get 2nd at a collegiate comp in bronze rumba with a semifinal, you get 2 points in rumba and none in anything else.

The next weekend, you win a chacha/rumba event at another college comp with a semi. That gets you 3 points in both cha and rumba. So you now have 5 in rumba and 3 in cha.

The next weekend you get 2nd in a rumba/jive event, for two points each.
Now you have 7 points in rumba and can no longer dance that at bronze, 3 points in cha, and 2 in jive. You can continue to dance bronze cha and jive, but you cannot enter a multi-dance bronze event that includes rumba. Some comps might let you enter rumba at silver and the others at bronze, wheras some might only have multi-dance events or some other situation that would force you to do all your latin dances at silver.

[Kitty]

ok, thanks Chris.

I just remember a girl who entered newcomer for one smooth dance and bronse for another smooth dance and silver for something standard telling me that she hasn't been dancing that particular smooth dance until 2 months ago, she is dancing that other smooth dance for a year, and she won the standard one in bronze at several comps. That didn't seem right.

So theoretically one could dance gold 4-dance and bronze paso?

[Chris Stratton]

Some comps have level-split rules that say that you cannot dance in more than two adjacent levels. Under USABDA rules this applies only within a style and only with the same partner - but at some collegiate comps it would apply between standard and smooth or even standard and latin, even with different partners.

The time limits on some collegiate categories also vary in their definition. At New England comps it's usually global - counting from the first competition-oriented lesson in any of the 19 dances and applying to all the others. In NY, it appears to be treated per style.

[Laura]

So theoretically one could dance gold 4-dance and bronze paso?

Yes, one could have a bronze paso and be in gold in the other four dances.

[DanceAm]

Another discrepancy is age levels. In a situation I witnessed, a couple won Novice (in USABDA this is the first level of open) in age level A, (19 and over). They also won Senior 1, (35 and over) 3 times. The "A" age level point also moves to Senior 1 but Senior 1 points don't go down. So this couple actually had 1 point in Novice A and 4 points in Senior 1.

With the overwhelming amount of points, this couple danced at Nationals and won Novice Senior 1 and had a total of 7 points. (Remember that Nationals technically counts as 3 points.)

With this obvious Monopoly on Novice Senior 1, they were blocking other couples from getting points, so there was a bottleneck forming.

The other problem in American Rhythm Championship and Pre-Championship levels, not many proficiency points get awarded because of so few semi-finals being danced. So there is a situation where comp after comp and regional after regional, the same couples win both levels. I like how the NDCA says you can't dance at the same level at the same comp where you had previously won that level.

[Chris Stratton]

So this couple actually had 1 point in Novice A and 4 points in Senior 1.

With the overwhelming amount of points, this couple danced at Nationals and won Novice Senior 1 and had a total of 7 points.

Huh? How did they dance a senior 1 novice when the already had 4 points in it????

Or was this a "they said, you said" problem that's not actually about the rules, but about the evidence upon which to enforce them?

I like how the NDCA says you can't dance at the same level at the same comp where you had previously won that level.

Unless someone can find another statement of this in the NDCA rule book, the actual policy appears to be:

1) not an actual NDCA rule, but a recommendation that an organizer declare a local rule
2) pro/am only
3) still only applies with a semifinal:


Recommendation for Organizers: Any Pro/Am Student Dancer winning at a level (Intermediate Bronze for example) may not enter that level again at that competition, provided a semi-final was danced.

[Laura]

Ohhh, I really think this has changed over the years and that the recommendation used to say that if the event was merely contested and you win that you shouldn't dance that level at that comp the next year.

Well, I could be remembering wrong, but I really seem to recall that it used to not be specific to semi-final for Pro/Am.

[Chris Stratton]

Well because it's not actually a global NDCA rule but rather a recommendation that an orginzer make a rule for their comp, it's entirely possible that a given organizer could enact a version without the semifinal requirement.

[DanceAm]

Huh? How did they dance a senior 1 novice when the already had 4 points in it????

Or was this a "they said, you said" problem that's not actually about the rules, but about the evidence upon which to enforce them?


Remember, the comp officials, USABDA or anyone else is not responsible to track your points. The competitors must keep track of their own points. This Honor system works until it doesn't, just like the rythm method for birth control.

We (other couples in the heat) proved it afterward. We checked the rules and checked past results and provided the documentation to the USABDA eligibility chairman, (along with protests from the other couples). If you look at the results for Nationals last year you will see how the results were edited. We had no way to prove it at Nationals and when I tried to bring it to the officials attention, all he did was ask the couple if they were sure of the proficiency points they had. They said something like they didn't have 3 points yet.

Now the complete story started before Nationals where my wife asked them if they knew how many proficiency points they had at the previos comp. The lady of the couple said that "he" watches those things. My wife and I knew that they had at least 3, but didn't want to come out and tell them. From now on I won't be so bashful.

What is sort of funny is we had someone come to us asking about how many points we had, I could honestly say how many I had and I know where they are when I got them and what I am still eligible for.

[Chris Stratton]

Okay, so it was an issue of lack of available documentation in the timeframe in which the organizer had to make a decision. They aren't allowed to deny an elgible couple, and you can always DQ someone after the fact, but you can't retroactively put them back into an event.

The answer seems not to be to change the rules, but rather to do something like requiring all sanctioned competitions to submit an official list of placings back to USABDA, which could be collected and put on line, sent on CD to organizers of sanctioned comps, whatever.

Also, as competitor lists are starting to show up online ahead of time, it really does make sense for each of us to scan our events for people who jump out as not belonging there, and collect documentation if need be. Obviously this doesn't work so well with people you have never heard of before.

[marykomatsu]

With the overwhelming amount of points, this couple had a total of 7 points. (Remember that Nationals technically counts as 3 points.)
I am not sure about this. I know if you win Nationals in a given level, you are not allowed to dance that level again - at USABDA events.

However, that is not the same as getting 3 points.

Let's take an example where a couple enters Novice at Nationals and goes in with zero points, gets lucky and wins it. Indeed, they cannot dance Novice at any USABDA events any more. However, from the point of view of NDCA, all the couple has is one win, so one point.
They are free to carry on in Novice til they pick up the next 2 points.

Doesn't this seem plausible?

[Laura]

Sounds very plausible, Mary.

[DanceAm]

Mary,

I understand exactly what you are saying. However, doesn't the NDCA rule book say something about winning a National Championship precludes you from dancing at that level again? (except for championship level of course.)

[marykomatsu]

I looked thru the NDCA book today and can find no restrictions arising from winning a national championship. So, I guess the NDCA doesn't change things if a person wins their level in USABDA Nationals. This does make sense really, considering the NDCA now have their own Nationals from which they announce their version of 'elite' dancers, i.e. the ones who are allowed to teach. They do not go by USABDA's list anymore.

All of this particularly confused the "who can teach?" discussion which is too much to take on anyway. The answer is that many, many in Champ teach, from the Quarterfinal onwards.

I just got, and assume most of you all got, a email from NDCA again remarking that only their 6 couples from Latin and Standard finals in Utah are allowed to teach. Of course, I see all kinds of people out there teaching. It doesn't bother me too much, as long as they are competing at Champion level. The top of Champ is really a bunch of pre-pros anyway, so I don't see much difference...

[Chris Stratton]

I don't think the whole teaching dispute has much to do with proficiency points at all.

It is funny though how both NDCA and USABDA like to pretend they are the only game in town. People permitted to teach by USABDA and not by NDCA can simply not go to NDCA comps... (dancing at USABDA, overseas, and at least until amateur is defined in that context collegiate events)

Expect USABDA to counter the NDCA reminder shortly by reminding everyone that theirs are the only "Nationals"

[DanceAm]

Expect USABDA to counter the NDCA reminder shortly by reminding everyone that theirs are the only "Nationals"

Really, you think they could at least re-word it.

I dance both NDCA and USABDA in American Rhythm. I will be lucky to get a semi-final in Championship USABDA. But at NDCA comps, I look forward to having at least one other couple on the floor. The NDCA usually gives out much nicer trophies and they are a lot easier to get. It seems to me that we are the only couple in American Rhythm currently dancing both sides.

[marykomatsu]

Proficiency points and eligibility to teach do not go together. However, the differences between NDCA and USABDA in how both these attributes are awarded is illustrative of the confusion caused by having 2 organizations with markedly different rules.

Small wonder people have trouble figuring out how many points they have. Make the finals with a semi (above your level), you have a point in NDCA. But if you got 4th in that same final, you don't have a point from USABDA. Got that? Who can teach? - depends who you ask. Win Nationals - yeah, you can still dance your level - at NDCA. Win NDCA Nationals at your level, you can do whatever you want.

I have a spreadsheet with all the results from every comp we have done, along with accumulated proficiency points. I did this for my own records, but it is handy to have if anyone ever challenged us (never has happened). Thinking about it, I could see where one could need 2 spreadsheets, one for USABDA, one for NDCA. It is quite possible to be eligible for different levels simultaneously between the 2 organizations.

[Chris Stratton]

So it looks like there are two differences:

USABDA - winning our nationals places you out of the level

NDCA - making the final of the next level up earns you a point with just a semi; under usabda you have to get 2nd or 3rd with a semi, or final with a quarter

I actually could see this as being important - under NDCA rules, if 8 couples show up for a championship event, it must be run as a semi. A marginal pre-champ couple could conceivable pick up a pre-champ point just by beating two couples who had no business being there for the 6th spot in the champ final. Wheras under the USABDA (and also collegiate) system, you have to place at least in the top half of the field, and usually the top 3rd before there is any chance of getting points.

[marykomatsu]

Exactly so.

If you dance a group of ill attended NDCA comps, you can get booted out of your level even though you are really not at all ready for the next level.

I find it interesting that NDCA makes it much easier to get "kicked up" than USABDA does.

The remedy for the problem is only to dance the big comps when you are dancing "up" from your level. That way if you get a point, you know you deserve it.

[Chris Stratton]

Wow... just realized if there'd been one more couple at the USISTD comp this past spring I'd have a pre-champ point! (Or maybe not, strictly speaking it's unclear if we should actually have been allowed to dance silver, gold, and then skip up a level to the open scholarship event)

[Warren J. Dew]

I find it interesting that NDCA makes it much easier to get "kicked up" than USABDA does.
The "point making a final (even from just 8)" rule is probably just copied from USABDA rules a few years back. You could probably suggest that it be changed....

Just to make things more complicated, those old points were grandfathered by USABDA when USABDA changed to the 'top three or quarterfinal' rule.