Ochos Apilado

[AndaBien]

Sounds delicious, no? I’m wondering about forward ochos in close-embrace. I notice two general ways of doing them: one maintains the connection of the embrace and one requires that the connection be broken (opened).

Once I get into the embrace, I prefer to not let it break for any reason, so I lead forward ochos by moving sort of backwards relative to my partner, causing her to step forward into the space created. I do this for L or R ochos.

I see some guys lead forward ochos to followers R, by opening the embrace out and using their right elbow to more-or-less push their partners into the ocho. IMO, since this breaks the embrace, it’s less desirable. I also think it’s almost rude to lead a partner this way.

Followers, any comments?

[Temza]

I don't like breaking the embrace either. Any ocho can be done in apilado position, regardless of the leader's footwork. He can step back, side, or trade places with me - no need to open the embrace.

[Zoopsia59]

Sounds delicious, no? I’m wondering about forward ochos in close-embrace. I notice two general ways of doing them: one maintains the connection of the embrace and one requires that the connection be broken (opened).

Once I get into the embrace, I prefer to not let it break for any reason, so I lead forward ochos by moving sort of backwards relative to my partner, causing her to step forward into the space created. I do this for L or R ochos.

I see some guys lead forward ochos to followers R, by opening the embrace out and using their right elbow to more-or-less push their partners into the ocho. IMO, since this breaks the embrace, it’s less desirable. I also think it’s almost rude to lead a partner this way.

Followers, any comments?

Theoretically it should be possible to lead forward ochos in apilado just as one can lead back ones as a "crossed back" variation.

In reality, the few people I know who dance a fairly non-flexible-embrace "milonguero" apilado style don't lead forward ochos nearly as often as other people do. When they do, they typically open the embrace on one side to make room. It's used frequently as a way to pivot a follower into the cross by some. NOt so much as a sequence of several ochos at once.

IMHO (ok... maybe not so much H) forward ochos are really overused by many leaders and often taught too soon. I know of people who got (or teach) forward ochos in lesson 2. Subsequently, those people lead them with a very open embrace and extreme side to side movement with way too much arm lead. Or they travel backwards against the LOD too much.

Good for you for wanting to lead them without a change in the embrace. I know it can be done, because I've been led that way a few times. If you can figure it out, you'll be a rarity.

Also, expect quite a few followers to be totally stymied by the idea of being asked to step forward without the leader opening much space. Followers don't get much good instruction on walking right at (into) another person. Leaders have to address the weirdness of that to lead at all. Followers get away with not doing it much longer. (just as leaders get very little instruction on how to walk backwards with their pressure still forward)

[Nathan]

Theoretically it should be possible to lead forward ochos in apilado just as one can lead back ones as a "crossed back" variation.

In reality, the few people I know who dance a fairly non-flexible-embrace "milonguero" apilado style don't lead forward ochos nearly as often as other people do. When they do, they typically open the embrace on one side to make room. It's used frequently as a way to pivot a follower into the cross by some. NOt so much as a sequence of several ochos at once.

IMHO (ok... maybe not so much H) forward ochos are really overused by many leaders and often taught too soon. I know of people who got (or teach) forward ochos in lesson 2. Subsequently, those people lead them with a very open embrace and extreme side to side movement with way too much arm lead. Or they travel backwards against the LOD too much.

Good for you for wanting to lead them without a change in the embrace. I know it can be done, because I've been led that way a few times. If you can figure it out, you'll be a rarity.

Also, expect quite a few followers to be totally stymied by the idea of being asked to step forward without the leader opening much space. Followers don't get much good instruction on walking right at (into) another person. Leaders have to address the weirdness of that to lead at all. Followers get away with not doing it much longer. (just as leaders get very little instruction on how to walk backwards with their pressure still forward)

I don't lead this (close embrace linear forward ocho) very often, but it's definitely possible! It's a little like a micro-volcada, though it can be done with a shared axis or without.

As for the follower's forward steps, I think it's more a matter of leaders being unaccustomed to taking back steps (while leading forward steps) than anything the followers are doing. Unless they've practiced a lot, most leaders don't know how to cushion the connection, and they probably didn't pay attention in the early classes when the teachers were explaining to followers how to walk backwards! Add to that the counter-intuitivity of a leader moving himself before giving the lead and floorcraft issues related to walking backwards and things could quickly become unpleasant! However, if done properly, it's very easy to get just about any follower to take any number of forward steps (and feel good about it).

[Zoopsia59]

As for the follower's forward steps, I think it's more a matter of leaders being unaccustomed to taking back steps (while leading forward steps) than anything the followers are doing. Unless they've practiced a lot, most leaders don't know how to cushion the connection, and they probably didn't pay attention in the early classes when the teachers were explaining to followers how to walk backwards! Add to that the counter-intuitivity of a leader moving himself before giving the lead and floorcraft issues related to walking backwards and things could quickly become unpleasant! However, if done properly, it's very easy to get just about any follower to take any number of forward steps (and feel good about it).

Oh i totally agree with everything you say about the leaders and where problems stem from them in this. But believe me when I say that many followers are NOT accustomed to walking straight at the leader, especially as an ocho step. Yes, followers step "forward" in tango reasonably often. However with the proliferation of open embrace and flexible embrace, few are used to stepping right into the leader with the leader that close. They are used to forward steps that take them somewhat around the leader, not straight into him (except maybe that very small forward step in the dreaded 8CB)

I remember a teacher trying to show a step to a class and even the advanced follower demo'ing it with her didn't get it. She commented that she has never seen a follower do it right the first time. It was a "follower is led to sacada the leader" type thing, but the issue was the same thing... the followers are hesitant about stepping right AT the leader with him seeming to be "in the way".

Most every leader I have given a lesson to (and many I've danced with) have this hesitation in the beginning.. they just have to get over it sooner. Followers get away with not dealing with it for a longer time. You may be lucky enough to be dancing with followers who don't have this issue, but other leaders will find their mileage varies quite a bit from yours.

[opendoor]

Hi AndaBien, first somthing technical, then my opinion on it.

You do not say anything about the angle. (I will leave out fwd8s to the closed side, they require a different technique)

If you lead a fwd8 to the (subjective) left side direction, it is possible, but requires a lot of dissociation for the follower and some space (Nathan called it micro-volcada) for the leader. So, it is possible in apilado-CE. If you lead the fwd8 to the left at a lesser degree (f.i. in the ccw-molinete) it is fairly easy for you. But, if you want to lead the fwd8 ahead of you in the LOD-direction, it is (for me anyway) not possible to do it (without an opening of the hold) without breaking the followers backbone. So, in this case you have to dance liquido.

But why do you think so dogmatically about breaking the embrace? Dancing is fun, and I often dance parallel-apilado, salón-V, open, liquido, elastic, con luce, anyway everything mixed.

[bordertangoman]

But why do you think so dogmatically about breaking the embrace? Dancing is fun, and I often dance parallel-apilado, salón-V, open, liquido, elastic, con luce, anyway everything mixed.

often its the followers option; some I know will keep a body connection on my RHS but roll their torso away ( do they get nipple friction I wonder?), then back and the foot returns to a cross in front. Others will stay glued and do fat-old-lady-ochos with small twist from the hips and a lot of crossing of the leg in front. Excellent for crowded milongas, but its all elastic; i will generaly open up a bit for vals..

[AndaBien]

...If you lead a fwd8 to the (subjective) left side direction, it is possible, but requires a lot of dissociation for the follower and some space (Nathan called it micro-volcada) for the leader. So, it is possible in apilado-CE. If you lead the fwd8 to the left at a lesser degree (f.i. in the ccw-molinete) it is fairly easy for you. But, if you want to lead the fwd8 ahead of you in the LOD-direction, it is (for me anyway) not possible to do it (without an opening of the hold) without breaking the followers backbone. So, in this case you have to dance liquido.

But why do you think so dogmatically about breaking the embrace? Dancing is fun, and I often dance parallel-apilado, salón-V, open, liquido, elastic, con luce, anyway everything mixed.

@Opendoor: I was not asking for advice. I know full well how to do it, and it's not difficult at all. I was wondering why some guys seem to twist their partners around in a way that seems unrewarding, if not unpleasant. I know there could be some erotic stimulation involved, as BTM suggested, and I have no problem with that, with the right partner.

Dogmatic? It's merely my preference.

[opendoor]

@Opendoor: I was not asking for advice..

Sorry Anda, but my english is still very rough, and I do not get all that subtle implications. :notworth:

.. if not unpleasant. I know there could be some erotic stimulation involved, as BTM suggested..

Sorry for a 2nd time, but I do not understand this as well. Could you explain the movement more detailed. I have no idea what could be erotic at all. In apilado the upper bodies are fixed to one another, there is no movement at all. And hips and legs are far away from each other, on the other hand....


.. but roll their torso away.. Only bloody beginners do so? Once I danced with a beginner and, when doing 8s the buttons of my shirt and some buttons or decorations of her blouse got caught up, opend each other, and so, finally we were dancing... . We continued till the end of that piece and dance slowly in tight parallel hold to the curtain of a wardrobe, and cleared up that funny accident.
:-D

[bordertangoman]

. I know there could be some erotic stimulation involved, as BTM suggested, and I have no problem with that, with the right partner.

Dogmatic? It's merely my preference.

I made no such suggestion....tango is about erotic as jumping into a bath full of cold custard...blues or even kizomba is more erotic...and tango music..about as much as the proverbial cold shower..except Pugliese of course...

[opendoor]

..except Pugliese of course...

oh, please keep this thread free of S&M

[Zoopsia59]

Others will stay glued and do fat-old-lady-ochos

why on earth do you refer to crossing ochos as "fat old lady ochos"? People with fat thighs have more trouble with them than thinner women. Besides. they aren't just for FOL's. I am not fat, old and some might even question how much of a lady I am.

I hate to be touchy, but even using a term like "fat old lady" is pretty obnoxious even if it weren't so completely inaccurate. If there is such a thing as fat old lady ochos, they developed from the way fat old men led them, so enough with the insulting language.

[Zoopsia59]

I know full well how to do it, and it's not difficult at all. I was wondering why some guys seem to twist their partners around in a way that seems unrewarding, if not unpleasant.

Because those guys DON'T know how to do it!

Around here there is almost no instruction in apilado, milonguero, or even a proper close embrace. People THINK they are dancing CE, but it's this odd version of CE where you aren't making solid chest contact, but you're too close to your partner to be open. The connection seems to be in the follower's left armpit and inner upper arm, but it's not a V embrace either. I don't know what it is or where it came from. It used to be that folks here danced either open or closed. (mostly open) Now many of them dance this weird hybrid.

I'm not a fan. :(

[Madahlia]

Only bloody beginners do so? Once I danced with a beginner and, when doing 8s the buttons of my shirt and some buttons or decorations of her blouse got caught up, opend each other, and so, finally we were dancing... . We continued till the end of that piece and dance slowly in tight parallel hold to the curtain of a wardrobe, and cleared up that funny accident.

:-D


So, it was a kind of mutual unpeeling incident? I do hope so. I love your "rough English"!

[Madahlia]

I hate to be touchy, but even using a term like "fat old lady" is pretty obnoxious even if it weren't so completely inaccurate. If there is such a thing as fat old lady ochos, they developed from the way fat old men led them, so enough with the insulting language.

Quite so. Strange, also, how there are far more fat old men in tango than fat old women.

Around here there is almost no instruction in apilado, milonguero, or even a proper close embrace.Here, neither. I can only recall having a lesson directly centred on close embrace once.

[bordertangoman]

why on earth do you refer to crossing ochos as "fat old lady ochos"? People with fat thighs have more trouble with them than thinner women. Besides. they aren't just for FOL's. I am not fat, old and some might even question how much of a lady I am.

I hate to be touchy, but even using a term like "fat old lady" is pretty obnoxious even if it weren't so completely inaccurate. If there is such a thing as fat old lady ochos, they developed from the way fat old men led them, so enough with the insulting language.

I hate people who are touchy..and you are being overly PC. I use the term becuase a bit of humour means people will remember them, and its accurate; insofar it came from observation of dancers on youtube and the Tango Lesson., but thatnk you for saying I'm obnoxious; I aim to displease....

and I wasnt insulting you or any fat old ladies...

[Ampster]

Sounds delicious, no? I’m wondering about forward ochos in close-embrace. I notice two general ways of doing them: one maintains the connection of the embrace and one requires that the connection be broken (opened).

When I do it, it is in close embrace. I turn around making her face in the line of dance. I initiate a back ocho, interrupt it with a boleo, transitioning into front ochos. I then start moving backwards in back ochos, in synch with her front ochos. To get out of it, I lead a giro, and continue into a walk.

The milonguero close embrace is never broken. I do have to say that being able to do this necessitates being able to dissociate well.

[Zoopsia59]

I hate people who are touchy..and you are being overly PC. I use the term becuase a bit of humour means people will remember them, and its accurate; insofar it came from observation of dancers on youtube and the Tango Lesson., but thatnk you for saying I'm obnoxious; I aim to displease....

and I wasnt insulting you or any fat old ladies...

You weren't insulting me, but now you "hate" me? :rolleyes:

Apparently I wasn't the only one who thought it wasn't the best descriptor. I don't find the term to be "humorous" and I don't think it will make it any easier for someone to remember that type of ocho since they probably won't see a correlation in their dance community between weight/age and the tendency to do crossing ochos, unless they are in BA.

IME, older women as well as those with thicker legs are LESS likely to do them. They are far more comfortable rotating their entire body away from the leader (no disassociation of their shoulders to hips) and stepping directly perpendicular to their own pelvis. (not parallel to it)

Yeah... call me overly PC, but it is a misleading term at best and obnoxious at worst.. IMO.

[dchester]

But why do you think so dogmatically about breaking the embrace? Dancing is fun, and I often dance parallel-apilado, salón-V, open, liquido, elastic, con luce, anyway everything mixed.
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I thought I would chime in anyways.

It's not so much dogma, as it is a really strong preference (please don't ask me to explain the difference).
http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Basically, when a follower has the right embrace, and the song inspires you in such a way, the motivation (or maybe goal) for that dance is very different. The connection feels so good that you simply do not want to sacrifice the connection for anything else. Now with other songs (and typically other partners), your motivation will be quite different, and then you want to dance more for the "fun" or exhilaration of it. Both emotions can be very strong, but they are quite different.

Occasionally, there are some songs (very dramatic) where I'll try to emphasize one type of dancing for one passage, and then the other for another section of the song. Of course, there are some songs where I'll try to see how much of both emotions I can get at the same time, (but to be honest, if the followers embrace is good enough, the connection is what I'll go for over all else).

That's why there are people who will say that, sometimes, the dancer who does the least, may be the best dancer.

[dchester]

and I wasnt insulting you or any fat old ladies...
Well, at least you weren't trying to.

:cool:

[opendoor]

love your "rough English"
:p:p

[opendoor]

..Occasionally, there are some songs (very dramatic) where I'll try to emphasize one type of dancing for one passage, and then the other for another section of the song...

Hi dchester, so do I, but, in connection with your statement it would mean, that I dance alone at times, because I offer up the connection with my partner in favor of the flow and connection to the music...

mmmmh, makes me wonder :roll:

[JohnEm]

Because those guys DON'T know how to do it!
Oh Zoopsia, it's not just guys don't know how to do it.
Exactly because of this:

Around here there is almost no instruction in apilado, milonguero, or even a proper close embrace. People THINK they are dancing CE, but it's this odd version of CE where you aren't making solid chest contact, but you're too close to your partner to be open. The connection seems to be in the follower's left armpit and inner upper arm, but it's not a V embrace either. I don't know what it is or where it came from. It used to be that folks here danced either open or closed. (mostly open) Now many of them dance this weird hybrid. I'm not a fan. :(
And nor am I. Around here it's getting worse.
People who danced comfortably with their arm over my shoulder
and around behind the neck are being taught the horrid sandwich
my arm in a clamp hold.

Teachers and fashion I guess, and watching too much VU on UToob maybe.

We suffer the same fate about lack of embrace teaching, lack of realisation
of the role of the free leg, lack of realisation that moving around breaks
the magical yet very practical connection. I've been lectured by many a follower
about how they need room to move so inevitably I allow it but the connection
is ruined and some have no idea what that is anyway. Is it really tango?

And in forward ochos if the lady hasn't mastered disassociation she wants
to turn her whole body away. I know that's going to be the case if she decides
to end an ocho cortado with an ocho by turning away rather than following
my chest to feel the indication to cross.

We all know it takes two so all I'm saying is it's not one-sided.
What to do about it, or what can be done, is an entirely different matter.

[AndaBien]

Hmm, this topic took off like an Iranian rocket launch. Oh, well.

...Basically, when a follower has the right embrace, and the song inspires you in such a way, the motivation (or maybe goal) for that dance is very different. The connection feels so good that you simply do not want to sacrifice the connection for anything else. Now with other songs (and typically other partners), your motivation will be quite different, and then you want to dance more for the "fun" or exhilaration of it. Both emotions can be very strong, but they are quite different...

I agree with not wanting to release a connection that feels so good.

However, I don't find that an apilado connection prevents me from having fun or exhilaration. How I connect with my partner and the type of emotions expressed are two different things.

This type of connection does limit the types of steps I can do, but for me, that's no loss.

[JohnEm]

I agree with not wanting to release a connection that feels so good.

However, I don't find that an apilado connection prevents me from having fun or exhilaration. How I connect with my partner and the type of emotions expressed are two different things.

This type of connection does limit the types of steps I can do, but for me, that's no loss.
I don't understand the need to break the connection for fun either.
The most fun dance we have is the Milonga and there's no question
that it works best in the embrace. And when the mood takes me, I can
fly round the floor in the Vals on every beat which is definitely fun
with the right partner. Again, only in the embrace.

As for lack of or limitation of steps - never. Unless you mean that open
and exaggerated giros and ochos cannot happen. They are just different.
Definitely for me there are more improvisation possibilities within the embrace.

[dchester]

Hmm, this topic took off like an Iranian rocket launch. Oh, well.

I agree with not wanting to release a connection that feels so good.

However, I don't find that an apilado connection prevents me from having fun or exhilaration. How I connect with my partner and the type of emotions expressed are two different things. I'm not saying it prevents me, but rather, it makes me not want to.

This type of connection does limit the types of steps I can do, but for me, that's no loss. That's consistent with what I'm saying. With the right follower & song, I have no desire to do anything else (thus it is no loss).

FWIW, for me, the real conflict is when I have the right follower, but the wrong song.

[dchester]

Hi dchester, so do I, but, in connection with your statement it would mean, that I dance alone at times, because I offer up the connection with my partner in favor of the flow and connection to the music...

mmmmh, makes me wonder :roll:
Normally, I wouldn't ask, but your posts tend to be very good. I'm not understanding what you are trying to say, in that "it would mean that you dance alone at times". Does this mean that you would be (for lack of a better phrase) "out of sync" with your follower, or did you mean something else?

[jantango]

Oh Zoopsia, it's not just guys don't know how to do it.
Exactly because of this:

And nor am I. Around here it's getting worse.
People who danced comfortably with their arm over my shoulder
and around behind the neck are being taught the horrid sandwich
my arm in a clamp hold.

Teachers and fashion I guess, and watching too much VU on UToob maybe.

We suffer the same fate about lack of embrace teaching, lack of realisation
of the role of the free leg, lack of realisation that moving around breaks
the magical yet very practical connection. I've been lectured by many a follower
about how they need room to move so inevitably I allow it but the connection
is ruined and some have no idea what that is anyway. Is it really tango?

And in forward ochos if the lady hasn't mastered disassociation she wants
to turn her whole body away. I know that's going to be the case if she decides
to end an ocho cortado with an ocho by turning away rather than following
my chest to feel the indication to cross.

We all know it takes two so all I'm saying is it's not one-sided.
What to do about it, or what can be done, is an entirely different matter.


I agree with Zoopsia that we are seeing lots of weird hybrid forms sprouting up in tango circles. Close embrace seems to have another definition for some dancers -- close in proximity, but avoid as much physical contact as possible. The more that Argentine couples travel to teach around the world, the more hybrids of the embrace crop up. No one questions the latest fashion trends because they are new, whether they are natural or better doesn't matter. They just follow whatever their tango idols teach. Anything to avoid the old style tango.

The woman's "left arm clamp" was very popular during the Mundial de Baile this year. Those who prefer a V-position do so in order to have more freedom of movement, because the steps are more important than partner connection.

The "disociacion" trend has its purpose -- allowing the woman to wiggle her butt. It has nothing to do with tango milonguero. I learned that I should remain in front of my partner with my feet straight. The new trends allow for all kinds of hip movement to attract attention from prospective partners.

No matter which direction I'm led in ochos, my toes are pointed straight ahead, in the direction of my partner. I dance the "ocho milonguero" taking side steps with a forward cross, rather than forward steps and pivots. Can you all visualize the difference?

[opendoor]

Normally, I wouldn't ask, but your posts tend to be very good. I'm not understanding what you are trying to say, in that "it would mean that you dance alone at times". Does this mean that you would be (for lack of a better phrase) "out of sync" with your follower, or did you mean something else?

No ceremony ;) please

Not "out of sync" with my dp. But the apotheosis of the close embrace expressed by the foregoing posters, makes me wonder, why does it not have that importance for me, as it has for the majority here. I mean, if the music drives me to do some stuff I cannot do in close hold, I would break it, without question, only to express myself to the music. That is what I meant with "perhaps I dance alone at times". For me the music comes first. F.i. yesterday night: lets say about one quarter courtesy-n-obligatory dances (former dps, newcomers, friends, organizers), one quarter harmony dances in high connection and accordance with the dp and the music, one quarter lost and needless dances (nothing worked for what reason ever), and one quarter egoistic dances, I could have also danced alone (if no one would be around).

[JohnEm]

The "disociacion" trend has its purpose -- allowing the woman to wiggle her butt. It has nothing to do with tango milonguero. I learned that I should remain in front of my partner with my feet straight. The new trends allow for all kinds of hip movement to attract attention from prospective partners.

No matter which direction I'm led in ochos, my toes are pointed straight ahead, in the direction of my partner. I dance the "ocho milonguero" taking side steps with a forward cross, rather than forward steps and pivots. Can you all visualize the difference?
In my view the role of disassociation/disociation has nothing to do with
enabling a lady "to wiggle her butt". Simplifying, it is the ability to turn
the upper and lower part of body semi-independently. To a lesser
extent men need that ability too for a good connected embrace because
it provides the ability to "wind up" the torso of both partners. And it's
needed by both partners when walking outside milonguero style.

So there is no wiggling only a horizontal twist of either the upper body or
the lower body from the pelvis downwards. In my experience it's that need
to be fluid in a horizontal plane and yet engaged in the vertical one that
many find difficult if it's even explained at all. Until I pinched a little trick
from a dance partner as an exercise I didn't have the necessary control.

As for your explanation of the milonguero ocho, yes I can envisage it.
In fact Christine Denniston explains the position of ladies' feet more or
less the same way. But it is somewhat restrictive and some fluidity in
the twist of the partners can enable more movement and feel. I don't think
either are wrong, and I lead both, just subtly different within the embrace.

[bordertangoman]

Well, at least you weren't trying to.

:cool:

I should have started my post " with all due respect"

anyway its pretty much as Jantango has descibed, and I dont believe she's fat.

[opendoor]

.. dont believe she's fat.

Sorry border, how can you know ?

[bordertangoman]

Sorry border, how can you know ?

Her picture....

[Peaches]

Those who prefer a V-position do so in order to have more freedom of movement, because the steps are more important than partner connection.

The "disociacion" trend has its purpose -- allowing the woman to wiggle her butt. What a complete load of bull [poo].

A V-position is sometimes more comfortable. Sometimes it just looks better and makes following easier. There is some additional freedom of movement, but the freakin' idea that it's because "the steps are more important than partner connection" is nothing more than another bunch of biased crap.

Yes, dissociation has a purpose--allowing more freedom of movement to allow additional movements and steps to be completed. It's not about followers deliberately wanting to wiggle their butts, or about men wanting to make women wiggle their butts for the benefit of people watching.

Honestly...where in bloody hell do these crap ideas come from?

[bordertangoman]

Honestly...where in bloody hell do these crap ideas come from?



i blame fat-headed people ;)

[Peaches]

*snort* LOL.

[opendoor]

..who prefer a V-position do so in order to have more freedom of movement, because the steps are more important than partner connection.
..freakin' idea... nothing more than another bunch of biased crap..

may I add the aspect, that V-hold is for some reasons announced for people with back and spine problems (for me anyway. There must be an older thread Is Salón healthier than Milonguero style?)

[Peaches]

Yup. There are some guys out there who absolutely kill my back if I try to dance with them flat. If I angle out a bit it makes life so much better for me. I can dance a tanda without literally being in excruciating pain at th end of it.

[jfm]

A friend of mine saw Jan dancing at Lo de Celia (I think) a couple of years ago and says she looked very elegant, dancing beautiful milonguero style with a very happy looking partner. She's not a "fat old lady" either. After he told me he'd spotted her and how good she looked, we decided to give her posts to TangoL or whatever even more credence.

[bordertangoman]

A friend of mine saw Jan dancing at Lo de Celia (I think) a couple of years ago and says she looked very elegant, dancing beautiful milonguero style with a very happy looking partner. She's not a "fat old lady" either. After he told me he'd spotted her and how good she looked, we decided to give her posts to TangoL or whatever even more credence.

Talk about a pot calling a kettle black. Tango(hel)L is reknowed for being a snakepit of vipers, or were you being ironic?

[bordertangoman]

Talk about a pot calling a kettle black. Tango(hel)L is reknowed for being a snakepit of vipers, or were you being ironic?

and before anyone accusses me of insulting snakes or being snakist, may I say i very much like snakes, even fat ones, and am quite happy to handle them..

unlike one or two 'friends' who have turned out to be snakes in the grass

[v22TTC]

Talk about a pot calling a kettle black.

Gasp!:p One of the many things I find odd about our times is how adding the 'rude' word, to complete the phrase, as it originally was, reduces the likelihood of offence: it's 'pot calling the kettle 'black-a*se'.'

Though I don't think that it had an asterisk, originally....

[For your own protection, I would be mindful that people have been prosecuted for describing others as f*t, in this country... I mean 'ordinary' 'citizens' - obviously the media can use the word as much as it wants, and completely get away with it....]



unlike one or two 'friends' who have turned out to be snakes in the grass

Yup, me too: I've sacked all mine off - bunch of players. I think that them humies have had their last chance at getting close to me (except for in the two minutes forty micro-universe).

[JohnEm]

Honestly...where in bloody hell do these crap ideas come from?

Probably from rude people like you and who are restless in the embrace
and who wiggle their butts.

[jfm]

or were you being ironic?

Take out the vitriolic hyperbole and Jan's posts were vaguely in agreement with cherie's.

Anyway honestly, no sarcasm or irony, I'm told that Jan is a beautiful dancer in real life.

[bordertangoman]

Gasp!:p One of the many things I find odd about our times is how adding the 'rude' word, to complete the phrase, as it originally was, reduces the likelihood of offence: it's 'pot calling the kettle 'black-a*se'.'

Though I don't think that it had an asterisk, originally....



well I have never heard the expression used with the word arse(terisk) tacked on the end...

and I havnt called anyone here fat....

but we do have an expression after an advertising campaign here

"Does exactly what it says on the tin"

[v22TTC]

Not tacked on, but rightfully restored... quite a few fantastic old expressions use that word.

By the way, I hope you know that I didn't really care (I don't get offended on other people's behalf anymore...) - was just making some observations.

[dchester]

No ceremony ;) please

Not "out of sync" with my dp. But the apotheosis of the close embrace expressed by the foregoing posters, makes me wonder, why does it not have that importance for me, as it has for the majority here. I mean, if the music drives me to do some stuff I cannot do in close hold, I would break it, without question, only to express myself to the music. That is what I meant with "perhaps I dance alone at times". For me the music comes first. F.i. yesterday night: lets say about one quarter courtesy-n-obligatory dances (former dps, newcomers, friends, organizers), one quarter harmony dances in high connection and accordance with the dp and the music, one quarter lost and needless dances (nothing worked for what reason ever), and one quarter egoistic dances, I could have also danced alone (if no one would be around).
I suspect I'm not that far away from you. This has to do with why I'll normally wait to hear the song before asking someone to dance. For me (but maybe not everyone), some songs with make me want to go for the connection, in which case I'll prefer someone with a good embrace (and who normally won't open it).

Other songs, will make me want to do other things, so I'll seek out a partner that likes doing figures and quicker steps (like my wife). It's funny, but I've never had as good of a tango connection feeling with my wife as I've had with dozens of other followers. But with something more lively (like D'Arienzo for example), (or most vals & milongas) she's one of my favorites (as she enjoys fast turns & colgadas).

[dchester]

Talk about a pot calling a kettle black. Tango(hel)L is reknowed for being a snakepit of vipers, or were you being ironic?
Not every post on there is like that, although I'll admit that the "moderation" (if you can call it that), is very inconsistent.

I've occasionally posted there and I don't consider myself to be a viper (maybe more of a counter puncher).

[dchester]

Quite so. Strange, also, how there are far more fat old men in tango than fat old women.
Having lots of fat old men is a good thing, right?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Zoopsia59]

It's funny, but I've never had as good of a tango connection feeling with my wife as I've had with dozens of other followers.

Maybe it's the height difference?

[dchester]

Maybe it's the height difference?
It's a factor, but I have had better "connection" with a few people who are shorter than her.

[Zoopsia59]

It's a factor, but I have had better "connection" with a few people who are shorter than her.

OK, this is what I was actually thinking, but I thought I'd go with the totally not personal option first...

My experience is that it's hard to focus exclusively on the connection and the dance with my life partner. There is always so much going on in the relationship, good or bad. There are difference expectations (some of which may be subconscious)

When you dance with someone with whom you have a relationship that is ONLY about occasionally dancing tango, there's not all that other stuff going on. It's about tango. It's ONLY about tango. The ONLY think you are asking of the person is a good connection and tanda for 10 minutes or so. There's no serious fallout if it doesn't happen. You can even discuss the issues you might have had dancing with that person with other people (I don't know about you, but I never discuss problems my partner and I have in our dancing with other people in the local tango community, especially if I think they are HIS fault!)

So it actually doesn't surprise me at all that you have a better connection with people other than your wife. I think the dance partnerships that survive as life partnerships (and vice versa) long term are rare. I was having a conversatino with someone else here recently about this and he told me that he and his wife usually end up in an argument when they dance together. They each have separate regular practice partners.

[dchester]

I was having a conversatino with someone else here recently about this and he told me that he and his wife usually end up in an argument when they dance together. They each have separate regular practice partners.
Well, that may not have much to do with Tango. I argue with the wife about lots of stuff besides tango.

:argue:

[Angel HI]

When you dance with someone with whom you have a relationship that is ONLY about occasionally dancing tango, there's not all that other stuff going on.Unfortunately, the case, but unnecessary.

I think the dance partnerships that survive as life partnerships (and vice versa) long term are rare.My current partner of about 5 yrs and I have never argued about AT when dancing... and won't. (the reason is below)

I was having a conversation with someone else here recently about this and he told me that he and his wife usually end up in an argument when they dance together. They each have separate regular practice partners.This is very, very sad. One of the things that I try to instill in all of my students is 'if you are arguing, then you are not dancing. If you can argue, then you are not in the right place, mentally or emotionally, to be able to dance'. I have even stopped lessons, and sent couples home for it (b/c since they are not in the right space for learning, the lesson is worthless).