How Much Is Enough?

[UKDancer]

This isn't a trick question, or me trying to make any sort of point, but rather a serious enquiry from a relative newcomer to the AT social dancing scene.

I've been attending group classes, on or off, for about twelve months, and I've done a few workshops with visiting teachers, but I feel as though my knowledge of the dance doesn't add up to anything that I can really use confidently at a milonga.

May I ask other leaders what they think are the key skills and range of actions/moves (not choreographed figures - I'm not interested in those) that are the minimum to be able to get up and not feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?

And may I ask followers for some indication (even reassurance) over what is the minimum you are looking for from an inexperienced leader to have (in any useful sense of the word) a reasonable or satisfying dance?

I'm an advanced dancer (and teacher) in other styles: but neither in AT!

[Mladenac]

Sth depends on your basic and visiting teachers.

if you are taught to learn to lead and follower to follow you have it all after one year.
Bigger problem could be unlearning other dances.

I noticed that a lot of people need to unlearn all the skill from previous activities.
I include myself in that list.

Always initiate a move and wait a follower to response.

[opendoor]

..been attending group classes, ..and I've done a few workshops with visiting teachers, but I feel as though my knowledge of the dance doesn't add up to anything that I can really use confidently at a milonga

Hi UKD, that´s quite normal. What you learn isn´t applicable at once, but, it lays kind of a foundation or structure in your brain. Somewhen you can draw on it: mañana ;)

.. feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?

Tango is much more than moves, and skills. It is a period in ones life. Advanced women danced with me from the very beginning on, though I really couldn´t do anything but weighing to and fro. Tango is really much more than skilled dancing on the floor. It is talking (about movies, music, techniques, teachers, argentine culture, DJing, biographies, .... ) , it is spending time in a new community, it´s organizing all that DP thing, it´s really so much more than only dancing itself. By the way, for me it takes exactly 12 month anything new finds its way from the cortex, through cerebellum, into my feet!

And may I ask followers for .. the minimum you are looking for from an inexperienced leader..

Though I am a leader, what I got to hear is, a neat or serious appearance, (sometimes a good perfume), the feeling of devotion to the DP, and !! (very important) musicality.

.OD

[Mladenac]

And may I ask followers for some indication (even reassurance) over what is the minimum you are looking for from an inexperienced leader to have (in any useful sense of the word) a reasonable or satisfying dance?


Just follow the music, nothing extra you need to do.
I danced in close embrace with advanced follower who is also graduated piano.
And she didn't need any extra figures, just my comfortable embrace, and gliding along the music.
It was after my first year of dancing.

Over time you'll get more relaxed and hear more of the music.
And all the moves you learn you will find a place to use them appropriately along the music.
And you body will be able to adapt to also cause you will be more relaxed.

[Peaches]

1. Are you clean, polite and attentive?
2. Do you have a nice embrace?
3. Can you find the beat and, better yet, step on it? Or near it, even?
4. Can you walk decently?
5. Can you do a single side step in either direction, a single forward step, and a single back step in either direction? Rhythmically?

Bonus points if you can lead either a giro or a cross.

Extra special bonus points if you can combine simple walking, pauses and simple single steps in an interesting fashion that even remotely begins to correlate to the music.

[TangoTricia]

wot peaches said, in an ideal world.

for me, the minimum requirement for an enjoyable dance together is a connection to the music that I can recognise and respond to, within a comfortable embrace.

then, if you can do that, plus combine simple steps, walking and pauses in an interesting way, we are in "extra special bonus points" territory.

[UKDancer]

2. Do you have a nice embrace?

a connection to the music that I can recognise and respond to, within a comfortable embrace.

Thanks for all the comments. The embrace is troubling me a bit. What makes it 'nice' or 'comfortable'?

One of the habits I'm trying hard to break is to take anything like my 'normal' ballroom tango hold with an AT partner. I know that open embraces can be all sorts of shapes and sizes, but a BT hold assumes the followers backward poise from the waist, so that with the very forward balance of AT, I'm 'pushing' her right arm far too far. When I draw my own back, it stops being comfortable for me. It's the thing I struggle with, above all else (which is not to say that it is my only struggle!).

Otherwise, I guess I can tick the other items off the list pretty much: perhaps it is just my own insecurity that makes me feel like a complete twit every time I walk into a room full of AT dancers?

[Peaches]

A couple of ways that posture was explained to me, maybe something will stick or make sense:

Shoulders and hips--stand with your feet shoulder-width apart. Roll your shoulders back, then forward, then back, then forward. Feel where center/neutral is--that's where they should be.

Now, stand with your thumb on/above your navel and your pinky above your pubic bone. (Stay with me here, ;).) Arch your lower back as much as possible, and let your hand travel with your body so that you end up with your hand stretched as wide as possible. Imagine that you are pushing your body to arch with your hand. Now contract your hand and "pull" your pelvis up into your belly button. Tuck your tailbone under as much as possible. Arch, then tuck, then arch, then tuck. Again, feel where neutral is. That is where you should be.

Feel that your abs are toned, but soft. Feel that your shoulders should be down and relaxed, but somewhat back. Learn to realize what this feels like.

Posture--
Stand with your feet together, arms at your sides, nice and relaxed. Pelvis neutral, shoulders neutral. Now, imagine that there is a shelf above your head and you need to get something down. (If you're married or living with a SO imagine, "Honey, will you come here and get the winter blanket off the closet shelf?!" *cough* Not that I've ever done anythign like that. Anyway.) What are you going to do in that situation?

Stretch your arms up, bring your weight forward just a bit. Feel your core tighten. Feel your weight come forward toward the balls of your feet (I generally think of it somewhere between arch and ball). Feel how you want to make yourself taller, but don't take your heels off the ground. Feel the stretch, and the weight shift. Now put your arms back down to your sides, nice and relaxed and neutral.

Another image that I tend to use for myself when it comes to posture is to image there is a hook picking me up at the top of my spine/base of my skull. That hook is pulling up--making me taller, tipping me forward just a bit. My head is forward--just a bit--naturally...not pulled back, tensing my back and putting my weight back, just natural. While the hook is pulling me up and making me taller I relax, an imagine my skeleton taking all of the weight and responsibility of keeping me up. Muscles are loose and comfortable. Arms hang nicely. Tall and relaxed.

Embrace--
This is what I find hardest to describe. Imagine cradling a baby--think of how caring and gentle and protective you're going to be. Don't squish, and don't drop. I know my teacher used to use a cradling motion/postion for his right arm to describe the embrace, and his hold was very nice. To start out, keep your right arm parallel to the ground, roughly along the line of her bra strap. Cradle her with her side against your bicep, and your hand along her other side. Cradle. Don't squish, don't clamp, don't force, and don't "drop."

For your left arm...generally equally between the two of you is comfortable. At about shoulder-ish level. I don't find it comfortable if it's dropped more than that, but having it up high isn't comfy either. As you get more used to it, there are lots of different variations--bring it in closer to your bodies, holde that hand on your chest between you, all kinds of things.

Hope some of this helps!

[opendoor]

.. I'm 'pushing' her right arm far too far. When I draw my own back, it stops being comfortable for me...

Just stand upright, and let the follower find her postition instead. Your left arm may not push her right arm at all (I know there are different opinions). Think of your left arm as plastered in a cast (see below). No pressure at all, though connecting very subtly. Your arms follows the movements of your upper torso though as if there was no shoulder joint (but it must still be flexible and soft). Your right hand is behind the followers right shoulder blade so that your finger tips can reach the wire of the bra. But your right arm may not push or constrain your partner, too. It is more kind of an enclosure or fence the follower can move freely in. The position of your right arms is fixed to your torso as is your left arm. By no means hold fast onto your DP. If you want to dance in the apilado style position, let the follower build up the lean. But stand on your own axis.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/c7AV4wmdodU/0.jpg

[UKDancer]

Think of your left arm as plastered in a cast (see below).

Good grief: if my left hand was a far forward as THAT, she'd be in agony! ;)

'It's just a big hug', someone said at class a week or two back, but I hug someone with both arms, not just my right, and keeping the handclasp of LH to follower's RH in between us feels nothing like a hug! :confused:

[And Thank You to Peaches]

[jfm]

Harsh but being totally honest: IME of the UK scene, 5 years for a good dance (in milonguero style); 10 years+ for a good and satisfying dance in salon/nuevo style.
Sorry Maybe I'm just too rubbish to have nice dances with beginners yet.

[TangoTricia]

... What makes it 'nice' or 'comfortable'?

we were shown a tip in the very early days of classes, though it took quite a while for it to sink in: Point your elbow down to the ground, and keep your arms still so they only move as a result of movements of your torso/spine. There may well be a lot more to it, but this will take you a long way to not feeling un-comfortable. Think of the advantage a raised elbow gives you in arm wrestling, and avoid it in the embrace

One of the habits I'm trying hard to break is to take anything like my 'normal' ballroom tango hold with an AT partner.

I have a hunch that a lot of the instinctive aversion to BR we hear from the AT community is an unconscious response to exactly this mismatch in the embrace.

It would be fun to try out the embrace together, do you ever come south to dance?

[bordertangoman]

Harsh but being totally honest: IME of the UK scene, 5 years for a good dance (in milonguero style); 10 years+ for a good and satisfying dance in salon/nuevo style.
Sorry Maybe I'm just too rubbish to have nice dances with beginners yet.

I hope to prove you wrong with my students; already they have their moments after 4 months of classes ( and little between)

but I would agree;5 years, but its also doing to flying time. but for me 2 years was when I got grounded, and made an exponential leap; but very few good nuevo followers around, so i dont bother..

[AndaBien]

...May I ask other leaders what they think are the key skills and range of actions/moves (not choreographed figures - I'm not interested in those) that are the minimum to be able to get up and not feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?...!

Generally, I think it takes guys about two years to become competent, more to become good. If you are competent, women will be happy to dance with you. You must not think that fancy steps, or lots of them, are needed to be a good dancer. Doing basic steps musically and expressively is required, but it takes guys a long time to figure this out. A dance with very simple steps can be exquisite.

Steps needed (apilado): walking forward, center, left and right; side steps; careful ochos, fwd and bk; molinete ccw; gently rocking your partner. And, don't forget to dance plenty of pauses.

A traveling teacher and fine dancer once told me that when guys asked her to dance they usually pulled out all the stops, trying to be fancy enough for her. But she wished they would just relax and give her a nice, calm, simple dance.

Lastly, you must drop that BR styling, which you worked so hard to achieve. AT is a different dance.

[ant]

I think it all depends on whether you are leading through the chest/core or through the arms/shoulders. If you are leading though the chest I would go for it, after you have sorted out your embrace, if you leading from the arms/shoulders I wouldn't at this time.

Regarding the embrace I would suggest you get some proper tuition, I don't think you will get it right any other way.

As regards the other advice on steps, music and dropping your BT knowledge I agree with that.

[v22TTC]

May I ask other leaders what they think are the key skills and range of actions/moves (not choreographed figures - I'm not interested in those) that are the minimum to be able to get up and not feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?

And may I ask followers for some indication (even reassurance) over what is the minimum you are looking for from an inexperienced leader to have (in any useful sense of the word) a reasonable or satisfying dance?

What beautiful phrasing!:D

I would suggest, along with:-


perhaps it is just my own insecurity that makes me feel like a complete twit every time I walk into a room full of AT dancers?

That though many followers have the attitude of the answers you've received from Peaches and TangoTricia, I have heard rumours that TA can attract some rather contemptuous snobs too....:shock::p

So it's down to your personally-acceptable ratios of good to bad followers/dances/experiences: if one disdainful harridan can outweigh ten generous and compassionate women, to you, then it'll be later that you'll be ready (as per the OP).

Though it sounds like a platitude, the real answer is 'When you have enough confidence'; the sneerers are nothing but bullies (cowardly and opportunistic), and prodigious confidence is anathema to them. So, when you don't feel like a twit....

And quality of lead is pretty much all about confidence, in addition... of course, it's possible to bluff.

One of the habits I'm trying hard to break is to take anything like my 'normal' ballroom tango hold with an AT partner. I know that open embraces can be all sorts of shapes and sizes, but a BT hold assumes the followers backward poise from the waist, so that with the very forward balance of AT, I'm 'pushing' her right arm far too far. When I draw my own back, it stops being comfortable for me. It's the thing I struggle with, above all else (which is not to say that it is my only struggle!).

I think Opendoor's plaster cast example was to illustrate the general concept, not angle. I tend to imagine an iron rod going from my shoulder to my other shoulder, which becomes a sprung-steel armature running through my left arm, up into the wrist: it's not moving much, needing almost no effort to keep it in position, but it does have a little give forward and back (none side to side).

You're pretty much aiming for hands lightly together, as if in prayer - all the way up to inside the shoulder.

As is often the case, walls are handy here - stand close to the wall, put your left palm on it so the arm's comfortable, then lean onto the balls of the feet, maintaining that light pressure against the wall. If it's a smooth wall, then you can take side steps, moving the arm(ature) rigidly sideways as you do so, but always keeping the forward/back pressure (of the hand on the wall) even.

Re: Embrace/'Big hug': It's (IME/O) more a mental/emotional/intent thing than a mechanical one. As you say, mechanically, it's half a hug (can be more or less with some variations)... whilst holding hands. But in terms of intent - which is what usually mostly matters - it is a full, big hug (but mechanically less constraining for the partner than a real hug would be... unless the partner wants that).

[tangomonkey]

'It's just a big hug', someone said at class a week or two back, but I hug someone with both arms, not just my right, and keeping the handclasp of LH to follower's RH in between us feels nothing like a hug! :confused:


Here's an exercise my teachers do that helps (me) with the embrace: the leaders line up side-to-side and so do the followers, facing them. We step forward and hug each other, then withdraw our left/right arms to meet somewhere comfortably, while maintaining the hug feeling. It's a quick and effective way to experience the embrace with various body shapes and sizes.

[v22TTC]

Here's an exercise my teachers do that helps (me) with the embrace: the leaders line up side-to-side and so do the followers, facing them. We step forward and hug each other, then withdraw our left/right arms to meet somewhere comfortably, while maintaining the hug feeling. It's a quick and effective way to experience the embrace with various body shapes and sizes. [My bold]

I can just imagine that in the UK: "So, OK, step forward and hug each other."

..................."Ummm... I think I forgot to lock my car...."

"Me too - back in... 'a minute'...."

Etc....

[bordertangoman]

[My bold]

I can just imagine that in the UK: "So, OK, step forward and hug each other."

..................."Ummm... I think I forgot to lock my car...."

"Me too - back in... 'a minute'...."

Etc....

T o which "Do you feel lucky, punk. Well do ya?"

[dchester]

This isn't a trick question, or me trying to make any sort of point, but rather a serious enquiry from a relative newcomer to the AT social dancing scene.

I've been attending group classes, on or off, for about twelve months, and I've done a few workshops with visiting teachers, but I feel as though my knowledge of the dance doesn't add up to anything that I can really use confidently at a milonga.

May I ask other leaders what they think are the key skills and range of actions/moves (not choreographed figures - I'm not interested in those) that are the minimum to be able to get up and not feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?
The simplest answer for me (others may be different), is:


Have a nice embrace
Step on the beat
Wait for the lead

If you can do those things, it can be a very nice dance. Two out of three will be OK for a beginner. Of course I realize that "have a nice embrace" is rather subjective.

Another way to approach it is by steps:


walking
rock steps
ochos
giros / molinette
the cross / cruzada

The first two (walking & rock steps) are must haves, with the others being nice to have.

My two cents (if it's worth even that much).

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[UKDancer]

I'm quite encouraged by your comments. No one has suggested anything that I can't do (the embrace is a work-in-progress, though), and I think that I just have to overcome my nervousness and see what happens.

As for the "Step forward to hug" style of British behaviour, I would prefer to think in terms of meeting a loved one that I haven't seen for a while at a railway station. Ideally, we need a steam train, here, so that I can't be sure, at first, whether it is my friend/lover who has alighted from the train, because steam is obsuring the view; but as they walk down the platform towards me, we spot each other, and run to meet in a warm and spontaneous embrace. Daft, eh?

[tangomonkey]

I would prefer to think in terms of meeting a loved one that I haven't seen for a while at a railway station. Ideally, we need a steam train, here, so that I can't be sure, at first, whether it is my friend/lover who has alighted from the train, because steam is obsuring the view; but as they walk down the platform towards me, we spot each other, and run to meet in a warm and spontaneous embrace. Daft, eh?

Not so daft - similar to an image my teacher used: imagine you are greeting a friend or loved one at the airport, someone you haven't seen in a long time.

[Peaches]

Yep. I remember my first group class ever, after coming back from an intense set of privat lessons. To get used to the embrace a bit, they had everyone stand in a circle, alternating genders. We girls would turn to one side and we'd embrace with the person standing there. Then we ladies would move one slot down and hug the next person. Lather, rinse, repeat.

After a bit the teachers stopped us and did a humorous demonstration. No hugging like you're trying not to touch--bending at the waist, trying not to get close, sticking butts out. Embrace! Like this is someone you're overjoyed to see, like this is someone you want to be hugging, like you mean it.

And then we went back to hugging random strangers. LOL.

[Peaches]

Harsh but being totally honest: IME of the UK scene, 5 years for a good dance (in milonguero style); 10 years+ for a good and satisfying dance in salon/nuevo style.
Sorry Maybe I'm just too rubbish to have nice dances with beginners yet.Perhaps differing expectations? I'd say it takes several years before the tanda becomes truly good and satisfying. But if I know I'm dancing with a beginner who's just learning I adjust my expectations downward, and look to have a good dance from what they are capable of doing. Sometimes it's spectacular, mostly not. But I can appreciate what they are trying to do, and cut them slack for what they haven't achieved yet. Just so long as...well, see my first post! :)

[Peaches]

Oh yeah...a couple of other people said things in here that I wanted to second and emphasize. I'm too lazy to go back and find the actual posts, though.

#1--Keep your left elbow (you are a guy, aren't you?) pointing down instead of back.

#2--Your right hand will be in the vicinity of the wire on her bra...or at least in that direction. (YMMV, based on height and size and whatnot, but that's the idea.) Not on her lower back, not towards her spine. As a friend put it once very crassly, make like you're trying to be slick and feel up her boob!

#3--At least for now, in the beginning, forget everything you know about ballroom. I realize that you are accomplished in other forms of dance, but wipe your brain of all of that and any sorts of comparisons. Approach it like you've never stepped on a dance floor before. Later on, when it comes together and you develop it as its own dance, you'll start to see parallels and whatnot. But for now, don't.

[Ampster]

I'm quite encouraged by your comments. No one has suggested anything that I can't do (the embrace is a work-in-progress, though), and I think that I just have to overcome my nervousness and see what happens.

As for the "Step forward to hug" style of British behaviour, I would prefer to think in terms of meeting a loved one that I haven't seen for a while at a railway station. Ideally, we need a steam train, here, so that I can't be sure, at first, whether it is my friend/lover who has alighted from the train, because steam is obsuring the view; but as they walk down the platform towards me, we spot each other, and run to meet in a warm and spontaneous embrace. Daft, eh?

Not so daft - similar to an image my teacher used: imagine you are greeting a friend or loved one at the airport, someone you haven't seen in a long time.


If I may, when you dance AT, whomever you're dancing with (during the tanda) is you're loved one. Someone who is dear to you and enjoy holding close and warm.

At that moment in time, nobody else should matter to you. You're not pretending. She is the center of your world (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2010/08/movie-star-in-my-arms.html) during the tanda.

IMHO, if you're not in this mindset, then you're not dancing tango. You're just doing steps. Tango is not only a dance. It's a state of mind.

[Ampster]

Oh yeah...a couple of other people said things in here that I wanted to second and emphasize. I'm too lazy to go back and find the actual posts, though.

#1--Keep your left elbow (you are a guy, aren't you?) pointing down instead of back.

#2--Your right hand will be in the vicinity of the wire on her bra...or at least in that direction. (YMMV, based on height and size and whatnot, but that's the idea.) Not on her lower back, not towards her spine. As a friend put it once very crassly, make like you're trying to be slick and feel up her boob!

#3--At least for now, in the beginning, forget everything you know about ballroom. I realize that you are accomplished in other forms of dance, but wipe your brain of all of that and any sorts of comparisons. Approach it like you've never stepped on a dance floor before. Later on, when it comes together and you develop it as its own dance, you'll start to see parallels and whatnot. But for now, don't.


Was it this one?--> (Click here) (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=31738)

If that's the one, here's the source--> (Click here) (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/02/make-your-partner-feel-safe-smart-and.html)

[mshedgehog]

Hmm, you put the question very well. I agree with the thread so far on what the priorities are.

You are right that 'a nice embrace' is a tricky thing to identify. I think it's a difficult thing to work on in classes, and therefore you'd be right to make it a priority now. This is a thing that makes a big difference in who wants to dance with you. If you've got that and a little bit of confidence and some musical sense you are WELL on the way.

I also agree totally with your trains/planes approach. It works really well for lots of people. There is a very nice video explanation along exactly those lines here (http://mshedgehog.blogspot.com/2009/02/ent-tango-with-subtitles.html)- in French, but I have translated it down the page.

I know examples of people who have become very pleasurable and satisfying to dance with in under a year. They may have been lucky with their learning process and may well have been talented individuals to start with, but it's certainly possible.

[v22TTC]

If I may, when you dance AT, whomever you're dancing with (during the tanda) is you're loved one. Someone who is dear to you and enjoy holding close and warm.

At that moment in time, nobody else should matter to you. You're not pretending. She is the center of your world during the tanda.

IMHO, if you're not in this mindset, then you're not dancing tango. You're just doing steps. Tango is not only a dance. It's a state of mind.

I've rarely read anything concerning TA that I agree with as much as this (the sentiment, rather than all of the wording).

I tend to see the dance as an alternate-reality, the embrace being the portal... <shrug...>.

[Gssh]

I am with dchester - the key to being a enjoyable beginner is knowing how to do rocksteps.

Rocksteps allow leaders to 100% reliably a) stop in place b) turn corners and c) find the followers axis. And with these 3 things you have complete control of any situation on the dancefloor. If you get stuck in a corner - rocksteps till there is space. If somebody suddenly pops up in your path - stop walking, keep dancing by doing rocksteps. A move went horribly wrong - rocksteps till i have figured out where her axis, and my axis, and the LOD is.

Or more in the vein of what one of my friends keeps calling "that annoying tango mysticism":

It is very difficult to hide what you feel in tango, and to be enjoyable as a leader is to enjoy yourself at least somewhat, and for that one has to be the master of ones dance. If I feel that the music, and the flow of the dancfloor and the follower all together create unmanagable chaos it will not be pleasant to dance with me. If i feel inspired by the music, in control of the flow of the dancefloor, and connected with the follower it will in general be fun for her. In my experience/opinion (ymmv, and all that), it doesn't really matter all that much what i dance to in the music, what tools i use to keep up with the dancefloor, or what kind of embrace i use as long as i do it with conviction. And the easiest way of being convinced that i am doing ok is taking only the things that i am 150% sure of, and then dance a third of those. Tango people always talk about how nice simple steps are, but they are not nice because they are simple, but because we are more likely to get them at least approximately right (doing them really right is a quest for a lifetime :) ).


(a corrolary of that is that even not so good leaders who force followers through things they have no clue how to lead can be enjoyable dancers - their deep conviction that they are great and limitless confidence can be quite intoxicating - though this effect vanishes when followers figure out that there is nothing backing up that confidence, so i don't recommend going that route :) ).

Gssh

[AndaBien]

...I tend to see the dance as an alternate-reality, the embrace being the portal...

Nicely put. I like that.

[bastet]

Nicely put. I like that.

I agree, that's why nice embrace is just about my number one preference,right up there with musicality (which can be applied to the "simplest" of steps) and courtesy to the partner. (I know we've covered this extensively before.)

Embrace is a tricky thing, and I always say have the best embrace you can of the style you are dancing, and most people you dance with will be fine with it.

I also think as someone else mentioned it's best learned from someone who knows what they are doing. My suggestion is to take a few lessons on the embrace specifically when you can and I'd say the ideal would be at least some of it from women, since they are on the receiving end of what you will be doing as opposed to learning from a man would not be.

[Angel HI]

Embrace is a tricky thing, and I always say have the best embrace you can of the style you are dancing, and most people you dance with will be fine with it....

and I'd say the ideal would be at least some of it from women, since they are on the receiving end of what you will be doing as opposed to learning from a man would not be.Though I agree w/ the 1e part of the post, I understand, but might not agree totally w/ the second part. Embrace, discussed/debated/argued/dissected/preferenced ad nauseum, is a very tricky thing. The simple trick is that it is not just one thing or another, but a constantly evolving thing as the movements change. Now this is not to say that it moves/changes all over the place... ah, the trick. I use the phrase, "It breathes.", meaning that it, not only provides security for the lady, but direction, and 'allows', w/o interference, the movement to happen.

Re taking it from a woman, certainly (she can tell you what she needs to feel). However, she can not tell you how to internalize the movement in order to do it. Each has its advantages, but I would not say that bas' point of "...ideal..." really applies.

[bastet]

all of it no, but some of it, yes...i do think is ideal to get from a person who's on the receiving end. And if the lady teacher in question is also a leader, then she should also be able to tell a person how to internalize the movement.

[newbie]

what they think are the key skills and range of actions/moves (not choreographed figures - I'm not interested in those) that are the minimum to be able to get up and not feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?

It's when you feel comfortable with the navigation issues. The vocabulary (number of known elements, steps or sequences), the technique or the musicality are less important.
I once saw a guy whose interest was more in the tango followers than in the tango music. Tanned (we were in November), sunglasses in the hair (we were in November). His posture was quite unacademic (right hand very low in the back of the girl, head bent down right to cleavage). He was not really stepping with the rythm but from the outside it was almost unnoticeable because his lead was very loose and the followers were left walking in the rythm on their own. He kept inviting all the chicks one after the other and he knew only one sequence of four steps, that he was repeating endlessly, with a few walk steps in between. He was perfectly comfortable with his sequence and was able to adapt it (speed, directions, step size) to the available space he had at any moment, while keeping his dance easy-going and fluid. He was also able to do all this while smart-talking the chick with whom he was dancing.

[bordertangoman]

I agree, that's why nice embrace is just about my number one preference,right up there with musicality (which can be applied to the "simplest" of steps) and courtesy to the partner. (I know we've covered this extensively before.)

Embrace is a tricky thing, and I always say have the best embrace you can of the style you are dancing, and most people you dance with will be fine with it.

I also think as someone else mentioned it's best learned from someone who knows what they are doing. My suggestion is to take a few lessons on the embrace specifically when you can and I'd say the ideal would be at least some of it from women, since they are on the receiving end of what you will be doing as opposed to learning from a man would not be.

ah but embrace without balance & good posture is like a car with no clutch ; damn clunky!