Rise on the cross??

[bordertangoman]

I've noticed recently some followers rising as they go into the cross- even experienced dancers;

is this right? what were you taught? is it necessary?

[Mladenac]

What does leader do?

Rising means stopping to me.
If a leader rises that he stops the energy of his movement.

If leader doesn't rise and follower does that I find it inappropriate.

[Peaches]

Well, first thing would be to follow the leader's movement, as Mladenac noted.

Aside from that, however--no. I wasn't taught to rise--quite the opposite. It certainly isn't necessary. I generally don't rise (unless it's to follow the leader's movement, which will pretty much always take precedence, because otherwise the whole point of following is kind of moot).

[opendoor]

..Rising means stopping to me..

Hi M, that is not true: usually an slightly upwards directed lead means: short steps (mostly in double tempo), and a downwards leading (into the ground) means: long wide steps.

OD

[Mladenac]

Hi M, that is not true: usually an slightly upwards directed lead means: short steps (mostly in double tempo), and a downwards leading (into the ground) means: long wide steps.

OD

Topic is the cross, so if I go up in the cross it means to stop.
And after that I can play with a weight change I described in some other topic.

If I go through the cross in follower's double tempo I don't rise at all.
I go from dissociation to the right to dissociation to the left in one step smoothly and we end up in the parallel system.
So the follower performs cross in the double tempo.
I described how to perform cross in CE using follower's double tempo.

I agree with you that going slightly up is leading sth in double tempo and to note that it must be initiated in preceding step that you will go in double tempo.

Rising slightly != Rising.

M

[opendoor]

Topic is the cross, ... described in some other topic ..

You are right, so back to the cross. You mentioned that other thread, and probably you will remember how difficult if not to say knotty some foristas explained the lead. But it is so easy: it´s only a change of the pacing track (you know there are 3 of them). So there is no need for rise nor fall.

(For me, I do not use a rise for a parada at all. There are other means)

[Zoopsia59]

I've noticed recently some followers rising as they go into the cross- even experienced dancers;

is this right? what were you taught? is it necessary?

If the leader rises/ lifts me or sinks/ give me downward pressure I go with what he is leading. If the leader doesn't do any of that, I incorporate no rising and falling into my tango at any time. I keep it smooth and level by how I use my knees when extending and transferring weight.

At least I try to.. maybe I do rise sometimes. Some leaders lead the cross by a lifting feeling, so if I just danced with a "lifter" I might straighten with a "non-lifter" afterwards, but it's not intentional or even something I think is desirable.

Punctuating the end of a phrase of movement or music with a general straigtening in the cross is common among leaders I know. In this case, they straighten as well. I would call this "rising". A few leaders only know how to get a follower into the cross by lifting her and pivoting her into it. They don't rise with the follower, but lift her.

The two things feel very different, but between those two options, there are quite a number of times I will end up straightening when I cross if I'm not continued through it. So I could easily end up doing it out of habit for a tanda with someone who doesn't lead that way.

Also, I am much more likely to accidentally rise (or straighten) at the cross (or an end of a phrase as punctuation) if the leader is much taller than I. It's easier to avoid the unconscious temptation to straighten up with someone my height or shorter.

A leader does not need to rise or lift to do a cross or even stop in the cross.

[Mladenac]

@OD
Yes I was talking about weight change and playing with and a few ways how to exit the cross with and with out weight change.

But I believe that this thread is about standard cross.

And I added knowledge about other ways of entering the cross which are not alike standard cross but legs are crossed.

I would say 3 in paralel and 2 in cross system, so I would say 5 of them.

@B
Because they are taught that way.
And a lot of AT is done automatically even in pairs that improvise but they got used to each other so they do it that way.

[opendoor]

it´s only a change of the pacing track (you know there are 3 of them)

Sorry, only 3 regulary tracks in X-system, 4 tracks in ||-system (extremly outsided to left and right, too)

http://www.havefunwithtango.com/CANONIC%20ELEMENTS/Canonic_gif/walking%20outside%20in%20cross.gif
(taken from w ww.havefunwithtango.com)

[AndaBien]

I've noticed recently some followers rising as they go into the cross- even experienced dancers;

is this right? what were you taught? is it necessary?

I only dance close-embrace. If my partner raises on the cross, and I haven't lead that, then it causes a slight, momentary shift to the embrace, and I would not like that.

I was not taught that way, and it's not necessary.

I think followers (leaders, too) should dance so the embrace changes as little as possible.

Peaches and Zoopsia are correct, that they should go where the leader leads them.

[v22TTC]

I've noticed recently some followers rising as they go into the cross- even experienced dancers;

is this right? what were you taught?

We're taught to rise a little as we lead the pre-cross (with an inhilation), then sink a little (with an exhalation) as the woman moves her foot back into the cross - if we want her to transfer weight to that foot (as per other thread).

is it necessary?

Not strictly, no; but yes if you want a fighting chance of a follower to cross, who's only been taught that way....

[opendoor]

There was a thread on that bobbing in VU style, was it?

Anyway, the didactics following Naviera took a clean sweep with it.

[dchester]

I might rise on a pause, or when pivoting, but I wouldn't do it strictly because of the cross. A lot of the time I keep walking through the cross (space permitting, of course).

[Dave Bailey]

Funnily enough, I covered the cross yesterday (http://www.learningtango.com/Classes/Notes-October2010.html#17October).

I've noticed recently some followers rising as they go into the cross- even experienced dancers;
I think there can be a slight lifting motion of the follower, if she lifts her foot over the other to enter the cross (and obviously sinking down when she actually finishes the movement).

I also think the leader can encourage this motion, and it can help some followers.

(Note the preponderance of caveats in those sentences)

Is this right?
Dunno. I don't think it's exactly a crime against humanity.

what were you taught?
About 15 different leads, from about 10 different teachers.

Most recently, Asta and Alberto clearly taught the "lift" method.

is it necessary?
Not in my opinion.

[Dave Bailey]

We're taught to rise a little as we lead the pre-cross (with an inhilation), then sink a little (with an exhalation) as the woman moves her foot back into the cross - if we want her to transfer weight to that foot (as per other thread).
Yes, that's the thing I was thinking of - nice explanation.

[AndaBien]

We're taught to rise a little as we lead the pre-cross (with an inhilation), then sink a little (with an exhalation) as the woman moves her foot back into the cross - if we want her to transfer weight to that foot (as per other thread). ....

IMO, trying to lead with ones breath is way off target. It seems like more of a signal than a lead. I want to lead with the movement of my body. What happens if I breath at some other point?

The only thing one needs to know about breathing is to keep doing it.

[Mladenac]

In leading into a cross I was taught that movement has a smaller impulse.
So that additional rotation and impulse should be a sign that I am leading a cross.
In addition musicality should be taken care of when to lead a cross.

I tend to do the cross on the stronger beat than other (stronger impulse involved) and exit on falling melody.

[v22TTC]

IMO, trying to lead with ones breath is way off target. It seems like more of a signal than a lead. I want to lead with the movement of my body. What happens if I breath at some other point?

The only thing one needs to know about breathing is to keep doing it.

No, you can only breathe in the cross - our dances tend to involve lots of crosses, for some reason....:p

Nah - it's a more pronounced and intentional ('mindful') breath - like Tai Chi breathing: breathe in lifts the upper body, breathe out lowers it... pretty standard and 'natural' stuff... though it's kind of optional to the lead, in a kind of 'if you want 'great technique'' kind of way (done this way).

But yeah, it is extra bells and whistles that I kind of resent having to use... but most of the people in our tiny scene have been taught by the same folks - who do this - so it really is necessary for success (with nearly every follower)....

[Mladenac]

breathing while dancing

I saw a great movie "El Otro Camino - Tango con Rodolfo Mederos"
And Rodolfo was talking about bandoneon as lungs or sth like that.

Not knowing of that I tend to breath according to the melody.

So involuntary I tend to exhale when exiting the cross. :cool:

[v22TTC]

breathing while dancing

I saw a great movie "El Otro Camino - Tango con Rodolfo Mederos"
And Rodolfo was talking about bandoneon as lungs or sth like that.

Not knowing of that I tend to breath according to the melody.

So involuntary I tend to exhale when exiting the cross. :cool:


Aye, isn't the Lunfardo for 'bandoneón' 'fuelle' (bellows)?

[Mladenac]

Aye, isn't the Lunfardo for 'bandoneón' 'fuelle' (bellows)?

yes it is, according to this page:
http://new.taringa.net/posts/info/3264609/Diccionario-Lunfardo-Espanol.html

:D

[bordertangoman]

IMO, trying to lead with ones breath is way off target. It seems like more of a signal than a lead. I want to lead with the movement of my body. What happens if I breath at some other point?

The only thing one needs to know about breathing is to keep doing it.

:lol: but I agree with the sentiment; this isnt tai chi after all.

[bordertangoman]

Thank you for all your replies;
as DB says it isnt necessary; if the leader can cross his steps with no up and down motion then the more graceful of the species ought to be able to do the same.

I can see a rise by the leader might initiate a rise in the follower, but if she does it alone its habit, and a bad one.

On Breathing: the breath to lead is a possibility but its practicality in a real time dance situation is fairly limited in my experience. Tai chi has a form which revolves around the breath; tango does not; you are going to hyperventilate every time you dance to something quick! In normal everyday walking I would average a inbreath and out-breath about every four or five steps. ( And the aim with a follower is to take her breath away! ;) )

[Dave Bailey]

IMO, trying to lead with ones breath is way off target. It seems like more of a signal than a lead. I want to lead with the movement of my body. What happens if I breath at some other point?
It's not so much the act of breathing - it's an emphasis, using your breath to move your chest to, yes, signal to the partner that Something Is Happening.

I think it's also helpful to take a deep breath in just before starting out dancing - that also works quite well as a signal.

[Peaches]

I think it's also helpful to take a deep breath in just before starting out dancing - that also works quite well as a signal.I don't know what it's signalling, but I find a deep breath while in the embrace (sort of in that initial stand there and get in sync phase) is a great way of centering myself and focusing on my partner. If I feel him doing it, I will match my deep breath to his, and that feel very connecting.

[Zoopsia59]

I think it's also helpful to take a deep breath in just before starting out dancing - that also works quite well as a signal.

That's pretty much the only time I've heard of it (or felt it) done deliberately. An inhale before movement starts and an exhale for the first step. After that, we're just breathin' to avoid passing out.

[AndaBien]

That's pretty much the only time I've heard of it (or felt it) done deliberately. An inhale before movement starts and an exhale for the first step. After that, we're just breathin' to avoid passing out.

Actually, there are times when I take a breath just for effect, but it's not a lead or indication. Sometimes I like to just walk straight on with my partner and take a deep inhalation and exhalation while I do it. Other times, after a series of quick or complicated movements, I'll just come to a full stop and take a deep breath for my partner. It usually gets her to take a deep breath also.

I only do breaths like this with partners who I feel somewhat familiar and comfortable with. Doing it with the wrong partner might make her feel a little creepy.

[JohnEm]

It's not so much the act of breathing - it's an emphasis,
using your breath to move your chest to, yes, signal to the partner
that Something Is Happening.
It's a signal alright - yep, you're alive and well.

More seriously:
I was taught and still practise that a slight lift of the torso and/or the right
arm indicates a collect - in other words a pause. Maintain that lift and
weight changes shouldn't be mistaken for sidesteps. It's subtle, invisible
to watchers but necessary if you subscribe to the view that everything
is lead. How you do the lift of course is personal and could indeed include
an inhalation to help lift simultaneously but it isn't necessary and you are
asking a lot of yourself. Best not to contrive it and just be natural.

Then a cross becomes an anti-clockwise rotation with more lift to indicate
that the free leg is intended to cross over. I've been stopped by one partner
from doing it so with some followers it works and some it doesn't.
It depends on what she has been taught I suppose.

Going back to another recent thread having lifted you now can indicate timing,
or even delay, the weight change and it really works with a responsive partner.

Please note that I've avoided the use of the word "rise". Rise to me in dancing
is rising from a flat grounded foot onto the balls of your feet which is
a very different thing. As BTM commented there is no up and down motion.

[Zoopsia59]

I was taught and still practise that a slight lift of the torso and/or the right
arm indicates a collect - in other words a pause.

Every teacher I've had teaches that the follower (and the leader too actually) should collect between steps as part of proper weight transfer technique. I've never heard that the leader needs to do anything to indicate to the follower to collect

The exception has been in the more neo/nuevo/alternative open embrace styling when the free leg might sweep more and come to neutral less. But the leaders who dance that style use other means to lead a cross besides lifting, so I suppose a lift for some of them might mean they want the follower to collect faster and get the free leg motion tight. I just haven't experienced that.

I certainly never equate collect with pause. I most likely collect in a pause, but I certainly don't ONLY collect when pausing. I collect between every step that isn't led to prevent it. Even if I am doing a more fluid nuevo'ish styling and allowing for a sweeping motion, the leg comes through collect as part of it's sweep.

[JohnEm]

Every teacher I've had teaches that the follower (and the leader too actually) should collect between steps as part of proper weight transfer technique. I've never heard that the leader needs to do anything to indicate to the follower to collect

Err . . . that's why I've posted it here.
You make your own choice though.

And yes, collecting is part of the dance for men and women,
though most men it seems should do it more. A weight change isn't
automatic. I can pause without a weight change and weight change
without movement. I'd guess that every leader can tell you of
instances when his weight change has been misinterpreted as
a side step but an upward intent makes it clear to stay put.
Release the upward intent as part of the sidestep.



I certainly never equate collect with pause. I most likely collect in a pause, but I certainly don't ONLY collect when pausing. I collect between every step that isn't led to prevent it.
I'm not sure I indicated that so I agree and the upward intent
doesn't conflict with natural collecting even in a through step.

In fact to continue I was also taught to provide a downward intent
to indicate a pause with the legs apart, for instance if the ocho
cortado is halted in the sidestep. That isn't quite so comfortable.

The point I suppose is that the lead needn't be two dimensional,
there is a third vertical dimension possible.

[newbie]

I can weight change without movement.

I certainly cannot do that, but I remember a super-hero from Marvel Comics who was able to do so by changing his molecular density. Atom was his name, I think.

[dchester]

The point I suppose is that the lead needn't be two dimensional, there is a third vertical dimension possible.
On this point, there seems to be some agreement (that the vertical dimension is possible). Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be universal agreement on what the vertical dimension is actually indicating.

For me, it is to indicate there should be no weight change (which could be for a pause or a pivot). Nothing to do with collecting.

[AndaBien]

In my mind followers always collect, unless led otherwise. If I lead a change of weight, they should go ahead and do it, then collect.

Now, I can lead them to begin a weight change and then lead them to not complete it, but that requires the additional lead.

Whenever I want my partner to remain on her weighted foot, I lead that.

[bordertangoman]

I certainly cannot do that, but I remember a super-hero from Marvel Comics who was able to do so by changing his molecular density. Atom was his name, I think.

OH that's easy.. yor molecules and atoms are spinning at random you just have to get them all to go up a the same time; levitation!

[bordertangoman]

In my mind followers always collect, unless led otherwise. If I lead a change of weight, they should go ahead and do it, then collect.

Now, I can lead them to begin a weight change and then lead them to not complete it, but that requires the additional lead.

Whenever I want my partner to remain on her weighted foot, I lead that.

Collecting????, Oh that's so yesterday!

[UKDancer]

Collecting????, Oh that's so yesterday!

Is it?

[JohnEm]

On this point, there seems to be some agreement (that the vertical dimension is possible). Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be universal agreement on what the vertical dimension is actually indicating.

For me, it is to indicate there should be no weight change (which could be for a pause or a pivot). Nothing to do with collecting.
Just for clarity's sake as you appear to misunderstand me.

The upward intent on its own doesn't indicate a weight change
but it does indicate both a collect and no movement once collected.
Maintain the upward intent and a movement of both torsos changes
weight without movement. It works for my partners, maybe it doesn't for you.

I'll go further to say it's not what you think it indicates but what it indicates
to your partner. It also has a much more interesting role in the cross
but that takes us into the vexed question of non-wiggling hips and
how one body communicates with another.

[dchester]

I certainly cannot do that, but I remember a super-hero from Marvel Comics who was able to do so by changing his molecular density. Atom was his name, I think.
I seem to recall him from DC Comics. I don't think he was much of a dancer though. He really should have gone to practica more often.

[caminito]

I think that "Supertangoman" looks a bit silly wearing his Y fronts outside his trousers.

[Zoopsia59]

The upward intent on its own doesn't indicate a weight change
but it does indicate both a collect and no movement once collected.
Maintain the upward intent and a movement of both torsos changes
weight without movement. It works for my partners, maybe it doesn't for you.

I'll go further to say it's not what you think it indicates but what it indicates
to your partner. It also has a much more interesting role in the cross
but that takes us into the vexed question of non-wiggling hips and
how one body communicates with another.

Now i"m totally confused. It seems to me you are trying to NOT speak about it's role in the cross, but rising/lifting/whatever in the cross is the thread topic, so why avoid elaborating on its role in the cross?

[JohnEm]

Now i"m totally confused. It seems to me you are trying to NOT speak about it's role in the cross, but rising/lifting/whatever in the cross is the thread topic, so why avoid elaborating on its role in the cross?
Well I have mentioned it here:

Then a cross becomes an anti-clockwise rotation with more lift to indicate
that the free leg is intended to cross over. I've been stopped by one partner
from doing it so with some followers it works and some it doesn't.
It depends on what she has been taught I suppose.

Going back to another recent thread having lifted you now can indicate timing,
or even delay, the weight change and it really works with a responsive partner.
So as you've "asked" I'll elaborate!

Firstly I'm talking about in the embrace, in-line "heart to heart".
The amount of lean isn't critical but a chest to chest connection is.

Both partners need to be tall and toned with the core engaged plus still hips/pelvis
so a lead from the man's chest is conveyed via the lady's torso through
the hips to the free, unweighted leg. A man with a loose body cannot
project intention and a ladies loose body absorbs or muffles the reception
and transmission any such intention.

Provided this connection and communication exists an extra upward intention
as the cross is completed will indicate the free foot/leg to lift and cross over
the standing foot. She may even feel as if her foot has actually been lifted.
If the upward intent is maintained the lady shouldn't even be tempted
to weight change until some, but not all if you are staying in place,
of that uplift is removed.

As far as I know this is the only way a weight change in the cross can be lead
or delayed. With this technique with the right partner this can be lead:

K2NMLzhrfzU

See the stopped crosses at about 45 seconds.
Plus the beautiful standing cross at about 1 minute
and a very slow cross at just beyond the 2 minute mark.

This video ticks all the boxes for me, leadership, controlled responsiveness
from Chan's partner, musicality and a favourite piece by one of my
favourite tango orchestras. Oh dear, I'll have to watch it again now!

Ok I have now(!) and it's worth pointing out that she executes what
I can only call a slow "deep cross" at about 2mins 10/12secs. Visually
she conveys the idea of her foot being lifted deep into the cross.
While I was taught up and down leads the girls were taught to cross
with definition by placing the crossing foot such that the toes of both feet
were in line.

You will then find that dropping your weight onto the landing foot will
actually release the previously weighted right foot and you can clearly
see that in the video. And of course someone who does that allows the
weight change to be withheld by the upward intent.

Whew! Back to where I started with three dimensional leading.

[v22TTC]

Re: Breathing intentionally/consciously - not sure why the resistance: it's a pretty core fundamental in many disciplines, and will improve your performance in everything from painting, through shooting, to weight training... Tango isn't an exception.

JohnEm: Again, I'm grateful to you for explaining something that we sort of do (in theory) but was never gone into fully - the all-important 'why?' - re: lifting and sinking. Makes more sense now, and I like that extra component to the lead-style!:D

Generally: I now get some of the comments I've read recently, I think... do some folks here collect at the end of the step, rather than at the beginning of the next one?

[AndaBien]

...do some folks here collect at the end of the step, rather than at the beginning of the next one?

An individual step involves moving from one location to another, and collecting at that location. (As always, unless led otherwise). Any turning to prepare for the next step should be done with a well-collected axis.

[v22TTC]

An individual step involves moving from one location to another, and collecting at that location. (As always, unless led otherwise). Any turning to prepare for the next step should be done with a well-collected axis.

Cool - that explains a lot that I wasn't quite getting (especially with the other cross thread).:)

We tend to collect as the first part of the next step... gotta love ol' ideosyncratic Tango!:cool:

[AndaBien]

...We tend to collect as the first part of the next step... gotta love ol' ideosyncratic Tango!

Sounds like you are referring to generic Latin styling, and no, tango isn't danced that way.

[JohnEm]

Cool - that explains a lot that I wasn't quite getting (especially with the other cross thread).:)

We tend to collect as the first part of the next step... gotta love ol' ideosyncratic Tango!:cool:

Not so sure about Tango being that idiosyncratic but teaching sure can be :confused:
and very inconsistent whereas the tango that I strive for - and I suspect
you too - does depend on consistent technique. It's that consistency that
then enables the improvisation so the unpredictability is within known limits
for dancing socially with different partners. It's the mix of styles and teaching
which largely is resulting in its seeming perversity and the difficulty
of dancing with everyone at milongas. We are dancing different dialects.

That said, I agree with AndaBien. Collecting helps enable a stable axis
of both man and woman. Open ochos are step, collect, pivot, wait.

In fact I like a description I was given very early on that the lady
should regard each half of the step separately, an opening and then
a closing to a collect. Even when walking the closing leg slows down
towards the collect so it's available to pause or sidestep and then
accelerates away towards the foot's landing on the beat.
This principle helps avoid the "racing leg" syndrome.

I think you'll also find Rick McGarrey (or Alej) on Tango and Chaos
describes the principle.

[bordertangoman]

Is it?

No, I was joking, but there are a lot of other possibilities...

[Zoopsia59]

Even when walking the closing leg slows down
towards the collect so it's available to pause or sidestep and then
accelerates away towards the foot's landing on the beat.
This principle helps avoid the "racing leg" syndrome.


I wonder if leaders attempting lead this change of pace of the follower's free leg is why with some leaders I feel there's a lag in the weight transfer that leaves me stuck. I feel the intention to a step, I start the step, I get my weight almost there, then the leader stops giving me forward intention so that I don't have my weight on both feet, but I can't quite finish getting over my new standing leg unless I "lead" him to move me. It's like I have been told to take the step but then can't QUITE get my weight solid over the new leg.

I only have this issue with a couple of leaders, but it is a constant problem I have walking with them. ie: not a specific change or alternate movement, but a way they walk on EVERY forward step. I wonder if they just can't feel that my weight isn't transferred yet? I would consider that I am reaching too far, but I am reaching based on how much they move me. Then they stop just short of that.

These leaders dance CE, but without any apilado. I give them forward pressure, but don't feel a lot from them to start and then its completely gone at a certain point in the movement. If I press any more forward, I'll fall over, so it's not that I'm pulling away from them (and if that were the case, I would be having that problem more consistently with many leaders)

Now that you've written this, I am wondering if they are trying to create/force this change of momentum i my free leg. If they are, then the timing is not right because it is awkward for me to complete my weight transfer, but it isn't just a "slowing in the middle". It is a "stop too soon".

[AndaBien]

@Zoopia: from your description, it sounds as though these leaders must have an uneven walk forward, to give you a strong impetuous but not a strong completion. I imagine them lunging on each individual step.

[JohnEm]

I wonder if leaders attempting lead this change of pace of the follower's free leg is why with some leaders I feel there's a lag in the weight transfer that leaves me stuck. I feel the intention to a step, I start the step, I get my weight almost there, then the leader stops giving me forward intention so that I don't have my weight on both feet, but I can't quite finish getting over my new standing leg unless I "lead" him to move me. It's like I have been told to take the step but then can't QUITE get my weight solid over the new leg.

I only have this issue with a couple of leaders, but it is a constant problem I have walking with them. ie: not a specific change or alternate movement, but a way they walk on EVERY forward step. I wonder if they just can't feel that my weight isn't transferred yet? I would consider that I am reaching too far, but I am reaching based on how much they move me. Then they stop just short of that.

These leaders dance CE, but without any apilado. I give them forward pressure, but don't feel a lot from them to start and then its completely gone at a certain point in the movement. If I press any more forward, I'll fall over, so it's not that I'm pulling away from them (and if that were the case, I would be having that problem more consistently with many leaders)

Now that you've written this, I am wondering if they are trying to create/force this change of momentum i my free leg. If they are, then the timing is not right because it is awkward for me to complete my weight transfer, but it isn't just a "slowing in the middle". It is a "stop too soon".
Like AndaBien, trying to answer this puts me in the realm of speculation
though I can't quite envisage the lunge and pause motion that he does,
not from your description anyway.

But first there's no guesswork in saying that the leader doesn't lead the
pace of the free leg, that really is your part. I was trying to emphasise
the idea of collecting as part of the walk as a slowing down to the vertical
position along the weight-bearing leg ready to stop (though an uplift helps
gives notice of that intention), step sideways or accelerate away again
having continued to travel through.

Speculating, your difficulty seems more like a lack of intention and commitment
from your problematic leaders. Maybe they require more core tone, better posture
and balance plus confident projection etc., etc. It could that be your forward force
is literally tipping them slightly backwards just as you are trying to move
your weight over your new standing leg. Maybe they are either not committing
to the step enough or they aren't providing consistent forward intent. Or both.

You know that I talk about walking forward into floor - I do that because
my personal experience is that developing it solved all the strange problems
of the dynamics of walking with a partner facing you chest to chest. It helps
both partners to continuously create new axes with confidence and surety.

I can only hope this helps.

[v22TTC]

AndaBien and JohnEm: I've had a ponder about this... I think the main difference is more conceptual than practical; the main practical difference being that I have to lead things (collections) that your followers do automatically. I would, of course lead a collect (and wait for her to be steady) before leading a pivot etc.

Dunno - it's more down to where we are measuring from: Assuming that we're walking to the same music, hitting the floor on the strong beats, I step (as in move and transfer weight) on the beat and that step (and count of the music) is finished, then I collect (at the weak beat) and step again; so it's beat to beat where steps happen, conceptually, for me.

You'd seem to be doing exactly the same thing (to an observer), but conceptually you consider your steps to finish on the weak beat, since a post-weight-transfer collection is part of the step? So your complete steps are really weak beat to weak beat, where mine are strong beat to strong beat, even though we're stepping and collecting at exactly the same points in the music?

Is that right?

[Peaches]

I wonder if leaders attempting lead this change of pace of the follower's free leg is why with some leaders I feel there's a lag in the weight transfer that leaves me stuck. I feel the intention to a step, I start the step, I get my weight almost there, then the leader stops giving me forward intention so that I don't have my weight on both feet, but I can't quite finish getting over my new standing leg unless I "lead" him to move me. It's like I have been told to take the step but then can't QUITE get my weight solid over the new leg.

I only have this issue with a couple of leaders, but it is a constant problem I have walking with them. ie: not a specific change or alternate movement, but a way they walk on EVERY forward step. I wonder if they just can't feel that my weight isn't transferred yet? I would consider that I am reaching too far, but I am reaching based on how much they move me. Then they stop just short of that.

These leaders dance CE, but without any apilado. I give them forward pressure, but don't feel a lot from them to start and then its completely gone at a certain point in the movement. If I press any more forward, I'll fall over, so it's not that I'm pulling away from them (and if that were the case, I would be having that problem more consistently with many leaders)

Now that you've written this, I am wondering if they are trying to create/force this change of momentum i my free leg. If they are, then the timing is not right because it is awkward for me to complete my weight transfer, but it isn't just a "slowing in the middle". It is a "stop too soon".
OMG! You mean it's not just me?!?! I have been trying to figure out how to deal with this for ages it seems like!

Holy crap. This is a serious revelation for me.

[JohnEm]

AndaBien and JohnEm: I've had a ponder about this... I think the main difference is more conceptual than practical; the main practical difference being that I have to lead things (collections) that your followers do automatically. I would, of course lead a collect (and wait for her to be steady) before leading a pivot etc.

Dunno - it's more down to where we are measuring from: Assuming that we're walking to the same music, hitting the floor on the strong beats, I step (as in move and transfer weight) on the beat and that step (and count of the music) is finished, then I collect (at the weak beat) and step again; so it's beat to beat where steps happen, conceptually, for me.

You'd seem to be doing exactly the same thing (to an observer), but conceptually you consider your steps to finish on the weak beat, since a post-weight-transfer collection is part of the step? So your complete steps are really weak beat to weak beat, where mine are strong beat to strong beat, even though we're stepping and collecting at exactly the same points in the music?

Is that right?
Perhaps now it's getting to the point of over-analysis.

I have never consciously thought of steps starting and ending
though I do remember in my foxtrot days a moment of revelation
when I discovered that ballroom teaching regards a step being from
standing to standing whereas I was regarding it being from landing
to landing. Explained a lot about how I could never understand the
timing of quicks and slows. Not that teacher ever explained it, had
to buy a book to find that out.

In tango it was explained to me that steps should be regarded
in two halves which I've covered earlier. And as you are thinking
so mechanically (no criticism intended) perhaps you should indeed
positively change your thinking to that. As you say, the result is
the same movement at the same point but it might help you
to be able to improvise in the future.

[JohnEm]

OMG! You mean it's not just me?!?!
I have been trying to figure out how to deal with this for ages it seems like!
This is a serious revelation for me.
As a mere male perhaps I should fear to tread further!

It does seem though that perhaps you should both experiment
with walking differently with such leaders. From Zoopsia's explanation
she feels she is reaching back in response to the pace leader is indicating
but because of whatever inconsistent intention he is providing that
intent and drive disappears leaving her marooned.

Perhaps one answer is to curtail the backstep so that you are not relying
on a consistency of motion to help place you over your leg but you retain
total control of that. In fact I remember the girls being taught by one
teacher that they should not rely on their leader to place them over
their leg but are responsible for that themselves. Not that I think either
of you are doing that, in this case you receiving erratic signals.

That might make you feel heavy though so the only other solution
to a variable forward leader's intent is to remove some of your own
forward intent and be more vertical. These leaders may be more
comfortable that way and so might you be with them.

Leaders do experience lack of forward connection from followers and
all sorts of accommodations are necessary at times.

[Peaches]

I was just more shocked that someone else had encountered the same issue as me. However...It does seem though that perhaps you should both experiment with walking differently with such leaders. Yep, that's pretty much the way I've been able to deal with it...just as you've said:

Perhaps one answer is to curtail the backstep [...snip...]and be more vertical. Yeah, this is what I end up doing. And it sucks. I appreciate that there are all kinds of ways that the leaders have to accomodate the followers, but this is surely a two-way street. The only thing I've found that works with these leaders (short of losing my balance, leaning overly much on them, etc.) is to take shorter steps and, if not break the connection by dancing open, then weaken it to the point where close embrace is just pointless.

What seems to happen with some leaders is that they don't seem very in control of where their own weight is. They may start out with their weight forward over the ball of the foot/instep...but it's like when they start walking their weight shifts back to over their heels. And, yes, just that small shift can make a difference...particularly if you're dancing with a lot of forward intention/shared weight. Then they arrive at their next step, but the follower is left in an extremely awkward in-between place. That's my theory based on what I've felt anyway.

That said, it is NOT
relying on a consistency of motion to help place you over your leg

remove some of your own forward intent and be more vertical. These leaders may be more comfortable that way and so might you be with them.Ugh. So few guys around here it seems really dance with a good embrace with forward intention at all anyway. It's so rare to find I guy I can really establish that very "heavy" connection with, which I love. Most of the time they back off it. Sigh. I don't even care about apilado, just some pressure and presence in the embrace. And...yet...they won't dance open. There have been times where I just want to yell or put up a sign: "Men, if you're afraid of, or otherwise don't like, the boobies...just dance open!" :D

Of course, I'll accomodate. But it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it all the time. :rolleyes:

[JohnEm]

As we pretty much understand each other I'll ignore the minor differences.

However:

What seems to happen with some leaders is that they don't seem very in control of where their own weight is. They may start out with their weight forward over the ball of the foot/instep...but it's like when they start walking their weight shifts back to over their heels. And, yes, just that small shift can make a difference...particularly if you're dancing with a lot of forward intention/shared weight. Then they arrive at their next step, but the follower is left in an extremely awkward in-between place. That's my theory based on what I've felt anyway.
This has triggered some further thought about . . . . . . . shoes!!!

I've written elsewhere about the significance of heel height for forward
projection and stability but not about the dynamic effect of an effective
heel height and the consequences of a low heel.

People seem to dance in all sorts of shoes without much regard or appreciation
of what's needed. And they seem to be sold in much the same way.
If the heel height is too low the leader's weight will be biased back when standing
or moving weight forward makes the heels go light, probably weightless,
and stability in the stance is lost. Walk in such shoes and tipping/moving forward
is possible if a little unstable but when the weight is landed, the heel isn't
where it should be so the leader's weight could indeed sink onto the heel
under the follower's forward intention and destroy the leader's.
It could be the effect Zoopsia is feeling.

In my case a good friend and tango partner used to tell me about a hesitation
she felt but never was able to exactly tell me what it was. Another felt an
improvement when I solved the shoe dilemma and was able to connect
firmly with the floor. Perhaps this has something to do with it?

Your example of the weight shifting back onto their heels at the start of the walk
is a classic example of the heel not being as high as it should be. Care is needed
as my early experiments resulted in heels that were too high and you end up
sort of oddly trying to walk over your heel. This ain't easy!

It's not surprising that men use all sorts of different shoes, they are never
told and it takes a lot of (over?) analysis to get to this understanding.
Shoes of all sorts of weird shapes and constructions are sold/bought.
I looked at three different designs of Darcos shoes recently, every one
was different, only one possibly suitable in my eyes for tango. They
couldn't all be right as they were all so different. The most weird was an
eye-appealing black and red. The sole arched as normal from the heel
but at the point of contact of the sole the table/ground, it was bent
sharply upwards at about 20/25% as if shooting for the sky.
Not sure it was suitable for a foot never mind Tango!

I know this doesn't help directly but have a look yourself at those
leaders' feet and stance next time you're sat watching.
News of your views would be welcome.

Meanwhile I have been thinking of posting an article to gather up
these shoe posts as there is so little information about.
I may give this some more thought in time.

[v22TTC]

JohnEm: I have a few thoughts/questions about the collection thing, but for now, I think that it is a great idea to collect your posts with your shoes insights - I have some questions about this and don't want this to be all over the place in other threads.

Your earlier posts were in the 'Man's Walk: Porteños and Panthers' thread, on pages 5 and 6, if this helps to save you a job.:)

[v22TTC]

JohnEm: Me being me, I literally can't comprehend what 'over-analysis' means, in terms of the learning/programming, rather than the doing: I derive a great deal of my all-important confidence from as-thorough-as-possible deep understanding... I feel less likely to be taken by surprise as I'm dancing from the heart/soul... like I can only relax and let myself go if I feel that my back's been previously covered, earlier, by me.

So, thank you for your parenthetical qualification, in the earlier post.:)

If we can use the term 'step' to denote the move/weight transfer: How does the concept of step-then-auto-collect ('open-then-close') offer greater improvisation ability than collect-then-step ('close-then-open')?

I hope that it's clear that I'm not getting into a ''my' way is better', defensive thing here [or ever!]; but it seems to me that step-then-auto-collect offers less ability to improvise and is less the 'everything is led' TA-ideal (the follower has to catch your exceptional 'don't collect' lead, or she will auto-do-something)... and is 'less musical', since every complete step straddles the phrase/count at its end, with its weak beat auto-collect.

What am I missing/not getting about this? I suspect that this is actually very important, and will likely trip me up if I can ever get out and dance with others from other scenes....

[v22TTC]

Well, while it's quiet... sorry JohnEm:-

Since there are no suitable dance-shoe shops near me, I have to keep shooting into the dark when it comes to dance shoes, with mail-order (without too much luck...).

Re: The Darcos you mentioned, would the Porteño 4s on page 1 of their 'Tango shoes' be the right shape?

Again, I totally agree about the relevance of the shoes, and am so glad that you called my attention to this: one of those real 'epiphany' moments.

My problem is that in bare feet/slippers I honestly can stand/step exactly properly (weight on ball around 60-70%, heel around 30-40% and practically nothing on the toes, body straight and leaning forwards); but in shoes, the rigidity of the sole coupled with an even slight upturn at the toe has me tipping forwards onto the toes, heels mostly off the deck, which then has me having to lean back to compensate. As you say, this may well be happening with Zoops' and Peaches' problem leaders too....

It seems that I have to choose between arch-support, having found a shoe with absolutely no sole upturn at the toe, and wedge-modified heel (as you mentioned in the other thread); or have a very flexible sole that won't fight against what I can do naturally... a jazz shoe or something (and I never seem to have needed arch support anyway...).

Would that sound about right?

[AndaBien]

JohnEm: Me being me, I literally can't comprehend what 'over-analysis' means, in terms of the learning/programming, rather than the doing: I derive a great deal of my all-important confidence from as-thorough-as-possible deep understanding... I feel less likely to be taken by surprise as I'm dancing from the heart/soul... like I can only relax and let myself go if I feel that my back's been previously covered, earlier, by me.

...If we can use the term 'step' to denote the move/weight transfer: How does the concept of step-then-auto-collect ('open-then-close') offer greater improvisation ability than collect-then-step ('close-then-open')? ...

If I may intercede, I consider dancing to be a right-brain activity, while analysis is a left-brain activity. To approach dancing via the analytical brain is okay, if it's helpful, but eventually you have to go away from your left-brain thinking and begin using your right-brain. I think some people over analyze because they are not comfortable using their right-brain. In that case, the analyzing becomes a hindrance to their learning.

Regarding shoes, for men, I don't think it's all that important. A skillful dancer will not be hindered by their shoes. I've seen many beginners be overly concerned about their shoes, and later on they just don't think about it anymore. Just find something that is comfortable, with a leather sole.

[bastet]

Peaches and Zoopsia- It's not just you. I get this on occasion with leaders who don't know where their weight is....or who don't understand how holding it in a different place affects their followers.

So this:

"Yeah, this is what I end up doing. And it sucks. I appreciate that there are all kinds of ways that the leaders have to accomodate the followers, but this is surely a two-way street. The only thing I've found that works with these leaders (short of losing my balance, leaning overly much on them, etc.) is to take shorter steps and, if not break the connection by dancing open, then weaken it to the point where close embrace is just pointless.

What seems to happen with some leaders is that they don't seem very in control of where their own weight is. They may start out with their weight forward over the ball of the foot/instep...but it's like when they start walking their weight shifts back to over their heels. And, yes, just that small shift can make a difference...particularly if you're dancing with a lot of forward intention/shared weight. Then they arrive at their next step, but the follower is left in an extremely awkward in-between place. That's my theory based on what I've felt anyway."

One of my instructors (who trained with Gavito so does lots of apilado) always points out to the leaders that they have not completed a step until they have made sure that they lady is where she needs to be weight wise (so back over the balls of their feet).

Still, just to know this doesn't help me much in real life and I just end up doing as you do with these leads and dance in open. Close embrace, much less apilado is pretty pointless.

[JohnEm]

Well, while it's quiet... sorry JohnEm:-

Since there are no suitable dance-shoe shops near me, I have to keep shooting into the dark when it comes to dance shoes, with mail-order (without too much luck...).

Re: The Darcos you mentioned, would the Porteño 4s on page 1 of their 'Tango shoes' be the right shape?
Well visually they look as if they might be ok but experience says I cannot recommend
buying in this way. Unfortunately there is no simple side on view either.
Pictures never tell the whole story.


My problem is that in bare feet/slippers I honestly can stand/step exactly properly (weight on ball around 60-70%, heel around 30-40% and practically nothing on the toes, body straight and leaning forwards); but in shoes, the rigidity of the sole coupled with an even slight upturn at the toe has me tipping forwards onto the toes, heels mostly off the deck, which then has me having to lean back to compensate.
Yes indeed, regardless of what AndaBien thinks.

Unless you have a unique body with its mass differently distributed(!)
I think you're kidding yourself about standing in bare feet. It may feel as if
you are leaning forward but look in a full height mirror and see what you see.
You may be compensating in your upper body. Be toned and lean forward
as if you are imitating a pillar (or The Leaning Tower of Pisa?) and your heels
will go light. Then sit your heels on some magazines to imitate a heel; see
and feel the difference. Been there, done all this. Sad isn't it?

It seems that I have to choose between arch-support, having found a shoe with absolutely no sole upturn at the toe, and wedge-modified heel (as you mentioned in the other thread); or have a very flexible sole that won't fight against what I can do naturally... a jazz shoe or something (and I never seem to have needed arch support anyway...).
Would that sound about right?
Afraid not! I see people in all sorts of shoes and just don't think they are right.
It's normal that different dances require different shoes. Argentine Tango
perversely is a walking dance, an oxymoron if ever there was one.
Strangely too, it comes from Argentina! So I always wonder what BsAs shoes
were like in the 40s and 50s. It seems the milongueros used normal outdoor
shoes, and why not for a walking dance? So would their normal heels be higher
than ours? It's quite possible as this weight forward stance is similar in all
Latin dances (I know, I know, Tango isn't regarded as one) though
they have different dance actions.

I've danced Tango in Freed dance trainers with heel packed high inside
as an experiment and in an extensively modified moccasin type shoe freely
available to buy at many events and to everyone watching they seem normal.
But they aren't. You cannot tell what has been changed looking from the outside.
You have to be wearing them. And it's not unknown for teachers to modify
shoes they've bought, I've heard them say so, even to a shoe seller.

If you must buy a shoe unseen which I don't recommend, I'd suggest you start
with a 3cm heel. Take into account your foot width as the last thing you want
is a squeezed foot, you need it flat inside the shoe to be able to use the toes
to aid balance. And you want the minimum of shoe extending beyond your toes
and a sole that is stable underfoot. My moccasin shoes are dreadful in that regard
so this again is from personal knowledge. You cannot reliably meet these criteria
from a web page.

And now I've probably given you even more to think about!

[JohnEm]

One of my instructors (who trained with Gavito so does lots of apilado) always points out to the leaders that they have not completed a step until they have made sure that they lady is where she needs to be weight wise (so back over the balls of their feet).
That is such a good point that every leader should know.
Only one teacher so far has ever pointed that out.
Thanks for reminding me and stating it.

The man isn't responsible for putting the lady on her axis
but is responsible for making sure she is in the correct place
to do that herself and has the time to do so.

[JohnEm]

If we can use the term 'step' to denote the move/weight transfer: How does the concept of step-then-auto-collect ('open-then-close') offer greater improvisation ability than collect-then-step ('close-then-open')?
I'm not advocating either though I must admit that my vision of what
you meant originally is not what is obvious now.

It's interesting (if only to me while everyone else reading is getting bored)
that as a beginner/learner your concept of a step is exactly the same as
mine was. Dance timing doesn't regard this layman's view so here is
my eureka explanation from Alex Moore's "Ballroom Dancing".

Step. This usually refers to one movement of the foot, although from a
"time value"point of view this is incorrect. In the case of a walk forward
or backward, for instance, the time value of the step is not completed
until the moving foot is drawn up to the foot supporting the weight,
ready to commence another step.

Do you understand that? No? OK, it doesn't matter, forget it for tango.
The milongueros never would have thought in those terms and as far as
I can tell we don't need to either.

I'm not suggesting either foot landing to foot landing as you seem to prefer
to envisage it or collect to collect as it's envisaged for timing purposes
in say ballroom tango. I'm recommending you eliminate any thought of either
and regard each half of a full step as an entity in its own right.

From standing on axis move free leg to land foot on (strong) beat one - first half/entity
Transfer weight & close/collect unweighted leg on (weaker) beat two - second half/entity.

And so on. Magic - no confusion at all!

Except, all of this talk, your talk, is potentially confusing your head.
And even my words here are compounding that confusion.

It's even better to not think at all about steps and feet even though actual
stepping and landing on the beat is the aim. So though I've talked about
steps above and moving the free leg better still is to think and act in terms
of moving your body forward timed in such a way that your free leg is
compelled to move to the position of the next axis to land on the beat.
In other words, do yourself what the ladies have to practise. Body moves
first followed by leg.

And that is quite enough of that!

[Peaches]

LOL. See, guys? We ladies are not just being crazy by being so obsessed by shoes! They're important! ;-)

[Peaches]

On a more serious note--I see you guys complaining about shoes that are either too stiff, or don't have enough heel, or various other issues. Have you not run across split-soled shoes with heels, or latin-esque shoes with heels and a nice flexible sole? Or have you tried them and found them not to work?

[bordertangoman]

LOL. See, guys? We ladies are not just being crazy by being so obsessed by shoes! They're important! ;-)

save money, just paint your feet black, guys; everyone's looking at her CiFs anyway.

in the heyday of tango shoes were made out of cardboard* (the Grimes choice)





*obscure joke for Pratchett fans

[Peaches]

*obscure joke for Pratchett fans
LOL. Nicely done, sir! (Where's a "like" button around here when you need one!)

[JohnEm]

LOL. See, guys? We ladies are not just being crazy by being so obsessed by shoes! They're important! :wink:
Yes - but I have only a choice of one pair of shoes that really work.

On a more serious note--I see you guys complaining about shoes that are either too stiff, or don't have enough heel, or various other issues. Have you not run across split-soled shoes with heels, or latin-esque shoes with heels and a nice flexible sole? Or have you tried them and found them not to work?
I've tried them all. Some shoes bought from BsAs via ebay (bad early mistake)
were badly made, worse fitting and far too stiff.

The necessary bendability can be in the sole unit or provided by being split
in two parts. I've no particular preference. If I wanted a street shoe that
was danceable I'd want a split sole shoe and they are available in BsAs.

[Peaches]

Yes - but I have only a choice of one pair of shoes that really work.And now you understand why we go for multiple pairs of shoes which are identical but for the color! :D

[JohnEm]

And now you understand why we go for multiple pairs of shoes which are identical but for the color! :D
LoL!!!!
Thanks Peaches, I do! But I don't think I'd look half as good as you
in a fetching pair of black shoes with shiny red heels.

[Mosca Negra]

This is an amazingly pedantic discussion. Should one rise on the cross? Really! A follower should be able to do whatever she or he would like to do within the context of the lead and the music.

The rare leader who allows the follower the luxury of time at the cross provides the opportunity for the follower to embellish in anyway she so desires. The best leaders understand the importance of allowing a follower time and the concept of relinquishing the lead to the follower.

Unfortunately, many leaders will dance through the cross in an effort to maintain the beat like a humane metronome. Then there are those leaders who vary the beat in a most unpredictable sequence and in those circumstances it is all a follower can do to complete the cross before being pushed rearwards in a tangle that could not in the least be described by those watching the floor as an elegant transition.

[bordertangoman]

This is an amazingly pedantic discussion. Should one rise on the cross? Really! A follower should be able to do whatever she or he would like to do within the context of the lead and the music.

.

no that's modern jive.....

[Me]

Rise in tango? Really?

Come on, guys. :)

[v22TTC]

Rise in tango? Really?

Come on, guys. :)

What do you mean?

[bordertangoman]

What do you mean?

maybe she was being naughty?

[Me]

BTM. ;)

I mean to say, it's wrong.

If I'm in a really close embrace and the guy uses a body lift (not a squeeze) to "make room" for me to cross, I will go with it, but a rise is something I never initiate. Never. Oh, and this action never comes from my feet unless the guy is pulling me beyond my range of motion. (Yeah, I'm short.)

You have that whole stylistic dynamic often seen in nuevo and more open embraces where you get that elasticity thing going, contrasts in level-changes... but it is not something the lady "should" be doing on her own... and it looks really stupid if she does this while social dancing in closed embrace. You get this head bobbing effect as the lady bounces up and down in the hold.

And now that I've sufficiently ticked off half the board (probably) *vanishes in a puff of ninja smoke*

[bordertangoman]

could do with a ninja smoke myself.......

[Ampster]

On a more serious note--I see you guys complaining about shoes that are either too stiff, or don't have enough heel, or various other issues. Have you not run across split-soled shoes with heels, or latin-esque shoes with heels and a nice flexible sole? Or have you tried them and found them not to work?

I wear boots to tango... It's all how you adapt the available equipment at hand :bouncy:

[pwpulto]

The general rule in tango is: the hight of the center of gravity is related to the size of the steps. When you stop the knees would be straight. When you take large steps the knees would have considerable bending. So do you rise at the cross? You would only do that if you wanted to take a pause at the cross (which one usually doesn't do). Otherwise the hight of the center of gravity would be dictated by the size of the surrounding steps.

Regards,

PW

[bordertangoman]

The general rule in tango is: the hight of the center of gravity is related to the size of the steps. When you stop the knees would be straight. When you take large steps the knees would have considerable bending. So do you rise at the cross? You would only do that if you wanted to take a pause at the cross (which one usually doesn't do). Otherwise the hight of the center of gravity would be dictated by the size of the surrounding steps.

Regards,

PW

goodness. this sounds like a cross between newton's laws of motion and the offside rule.

There must be some unknown factor that makes women believe that they should rise on the cross, like if I catch my toes with my heel its going to be painful, or I have to do a weight change here so I'll helpt it along with a bit of liftoff

[tangogo-dancer]

When guided, I do rise sometimes because it is just not easy for me to cross without twisting my pelvis. Most of the men I've seen seem to struggle with that.
goodness. this sounds like a cross between newton's laws of motion and the offside rule.Haha!