Dancing with teachers at a milonga

[Captain Jep]

Quick question : How many people here rarely dance with teachers at a milonga? Especially if there's a good pool of social dancers available in your area?

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Quick question : How many people here rarely dance with teachers at a milonga? Especially if there's a good pool of social dancers available in your area?

You mean their teachers or instructors in general?
There are teachers I never dance with. Others, all the time.

[Zoopsia59]

Quick question : How many people here rarely dance with teachers at a milonga? Especially if there's a good pool of social dancers available in your area?

There's not a good pool of social dancers here. It's a rather small community. But I'd always welcome a chance to dance with a good teacher, no matter how many people are present.

Another question might be... how many teachers (here on DF or in your community) dance with students?

I know teachers who never dance with their students, teachers who make a point of always dancing with their students, visiting guest artists who don't dance at the milonga at all (except their demo), those who dance with locals they know from the classes or workshops, etc, etc.

My difficulty is when former students ask me to dance, but I find dancing with them unpleasant and I feel their abilities have decreased rather than increased. I don't want to bad mouth any of their current instructors, but I also don't want to dance with them automatically the way I did when they were taking lessons from me. It's an awkward transition.

[Peaches]

My difficulty is when former students ask me to dance, but I find dancing with them unpleasant and I feel their abilities have decreased rather than increased. I don't want to bad mouth any of their current instructors, but I also don't want to dance with them automatically the way I did when they were taking lessons from me. It's an awkward transition.And this is exactly why I will never ask a teacher, but especially not my (now former) teacher(s) to dance. Ever. I know my ability has declined since I stopped taking lessons (and dancing as frequently), but more than that I won't impose. If they, or any other teacher, asks me then I will accept most happily...but I won't impose.

Same rationale as regards asking better dancers to dance with me, in a way.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I don't know about your situation, in our neck of the woods somebody being a "teacher" does not mean he is a better dancer than I am (or even a decent tango dancer at all). Some local instructors are in my permanent DND list because they are plain horrible. But personally I do not ask anyone in milongas anyways, I let the leaders do the asking.

[Zoopsia59]

And this is exactly why I will never ask a teacher, but especially not my (now former) teacher(s) to dance. Ever. I know my ability has declined since I stopped taking lessons (and dancing as frequently)

I will dance with someone who used to take lessons and stopped for various reasons like financial or schedule constraints. It's the ones who dropped me and now take regularly from someone else that I don't know how to deal with. Especially if the person has gotten more painful (literally) to follow. (Only leaders are the problem) It's too small a community with way too many extra followers for me to easily turn someone down without it being obvious or an issue. I can only claim to be resting so many times. I've been trying to do the "avoid" thing to prevent it thus far.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I will dance with someone who used to take lessons and stopped for various reasons like financial or schedule constraints. It's the ones who dropped me and now take regularly from someone else that I don't know how to deal with. Especially if the person has gotten more painful (literally) to follow. (Only leaders are the problem) It's too small a community with way too many extra followers for me to easily turn someone down without it being obvious or an issue. I can only claim to be resting so many times. I've been trying to do the "avoid" thing to prevent it thus far.

Zoopsia, maybe you should start confronting the issue, at least in the most flagrant cases? Firstly, you are not having fun dancing with bad leaders (or hiding from them instead of enjoying yourself in peace), and secondly, the community does not grow and develop if the dancers do not improve. I have seen milongas and whole communities where walking horrors outnumbered sensible dancers and forced them to leave one by one.
I know it is easier said than done. I also use the avoidance tactic quite often.

[Peaches]

I will dance with someone who used to take lessons and stopped for various reasons like financial or schedule constraints. It's the ones who dropped me and now take regularly from someone else that I don't know how to deal with. Especially if the person has gotten more painful (literally) to follow. (Only leaders are the problem) It's too small a community with way too many extra followers for me to easily turn someone down without it being obvious or an issue. I can only claim to be resting so many times. I've been trying to do the "avoid" thing to prevent it thus far.
I should have been more clear...

The declining ability aspect bothers me in general, but it's not the main reason. Mostly, I won't ask because I don't want to put them on the spot...for whatever reason. I expect them to be dancing with me when I'm paying them to (in a lesson), but when it's their free time as much as mine it is entirely their decision who they choose to dance with. If they don't want to dance with me on their off time, it is absolutely fine and I'm not going to force the issue or hold it against them. I don't want them to feel that they "have to" dance with me or else offend me (or, when I was taking lessons, risk losing a student)...or feel like I'm expecting special treatment because I pay for some of their time.

[Captain Jep]

I should have been more clear...

The declining ability aspect bothers me in general, but it's not the main reason. Mostly, I won't ask because I don't want to put them on the spot...for whatever reason. I expect them to be dancing with me when I'm paying them to (in a lesson), but when it's their free time as much as mine it is entirely their decision who they choose to dance with. If they don't want to dance with me on their off time, it is absolutely fine and I'm not going to force the issue or hold it against them. I don't want them to feel that they "have to" dance with me or else offend me (or, when I was taking lessons, risk losing a student)...or feel like I'm expecting special treatment because I pay for some of their time.

Fair enough. It's obviously a minefield. And do you actually therefore tend to hide away at milongas? For example, by sitting near the DJ or in some relatively inaccessible spot?

And a related question : do you think that these ex students generally "expect" you to dance with them? ie they paid you good money and that that entitles them to a "warranty period" (lol) on their dancing?

[Captain Jep]

You mean their teachers or instructors in general?
There are teachers I never dance with. Others, all the time.

This is where I'd like to get to. I want to dance with people I like. Whether they're teachers or not.

All too often though I feel that dancing with a teacher is just too much bother. Many of them seem to hide away at milongas so that you have to publically cross the floor and ask them to dance - face to face. Or they're so busy that I havent had a chance to get to know them as people. Either way they're strangers. Contrast that to asking someone I know who is both charming and happy to dance.

I am worried though that I'm rationalising things. Trouble is, teachers usually have great dance partners. And part of me thinks/ knows that I'm never going to be as good as their regular partner.

Something I should have got over - after all these years of dancing. But I fear it's something that still bothers me.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

This is where I'd like to get to. I want to dance with people I like. Whether they're teachers or not.

All too often though I feel that dancing with a teacher is just too much bother. Many of them seem to hide away at milongas so that you have to publically cross the floor and ask them to dance - face to face. Or they're so busy that I havent had a chance to get to know them as people. Either way they're strangers. Contrast that to asking someone I know who is both charming and happy to dance.

I am worried though that I'm rationalising things. Trouble is, teachers usually have great dance partners. And part of me thinks/ knows that I'm never going to be as good as their regular partner.

Something I should have got over - after all these years of dancing. But I fear it's something that still bothers me.

What I think it comes down to, at times teachers go to a milonga to milonguear, meaning to dance, socialize and enjoy themselves as anyone else would. Other times they go to a milonga to network, to do business, to attract students etc. And, of course, sometimes they do all of the above at once. In what proportion, depends on a night of the week, a particular milonga, or a specific person.
Instructor or not, to me it is just an another milonga goer. If he is a good dancer and a pleasant person, a welcome addition to the crowd and a potential for a nice tanda. But if he is there to schmooze (or whatever) rather than to dance, nothing wrong with that, either.

[mshedgehog]

Quick question : How many people here rarely dance with teachers at a milonga? Especially if there's a good pool of social dancers available in your area?

Hmm. Thinking about it, I really can't say there's a rule. I wouldn't say it's rare.

[Peaches]

Fair enough. It's obviously a minefield. And do you actually therefore tend to hide away at milongas? For example, by sitting near the DJ or in some relatively inaccessible spot?

And a related question : do you think that these ex students generally "expect" you to dance with them? ie they paid you good money and that that entitles them to a "warranty period" (lol) on their dancing?No, I don't tend to hide. I'm pretty unnoticeable enough (quiet, shy, have a knack for "disappearing" from a group or crowd) as it is. Anyhow, it's not that I seek to hide or not dance with them. If asked, I will happily dance with my former teacher...or other teachers...or pretty much anyone. I just won't ask them to dance with me. Being a girl, not being the one to ask is a luxury I happily take advantage of.

I don't know about other ex students, but speaking for myself...no, there isn't expectation. Hope, definitely. I don't think it's so much a warranty period sort of thing, but a teacher can be an important person in a student's life...which can lead to warm feelings towards the teacher, and a certain closeness (not talking about inappropriateness, just platonic). Even if those feelings aren't mutual, which is OK, they are there and they are real. It's kind of natural to want to dance with that person again.

[bordertangoman]

This is where I'd like to get to. I want to dance with people I like. Whether they're teachers or not.

All too often though I feel that dancing with a teacher is just too much bother. Many of them seem to hide away at milongas so that you have to publically cross the floor and ask them to dance - face to face. Or they're so busy that I havent had a chance to get to know them as people. Either way they're strangers. Contrast that to asking someone I know who is both charming and happy to dance.

I am worried though that I'm rationalising things. Trouble is, teachers usually have great dance partners. And part of me thinks/ knows that I'm never going to be as good as their regular partner.

Something I should have got over - after all these years of dancing. But I fear it's something that still bothers me.

There are one or two teachers who i chose not to dance with, because they dance too much with their partner and are lousy social dancers, not naming any names, but in my experience its worth crossing the floor to ask, and risk being declined. I think being a visiting teacher is probably quite boring inbetween the times they are teaching so no harm being sociable..

I had one of my best dances ever with a visting teacher and I got the feeling that she enjoyed it too. she said Muy Bien at the end of the tanda and had a beaming smile. After that the couple did dance a lot more with people so sometimes I think sometimes ice needs breaking, possibly more so in smaller communities.

It is always easier to ask someone you know, but then I think there is a skill to hosting and introducing people to each other especially if they're visitors.

I also danced with Maria Solero without realising she was a teacher. I had that feeling of having got into a Ferrari by accident, instead of my own car.

[Captain Jep]

I also danced with Maria Solero without realising she was a teacher. I had that feeling of having got into a Ferrari by accident, instead of my own car.

I had that feeling a few times when I was in BsAs. When I danced with people who I also didnt realise were teachers. It made it sweeter that they only admitted they were when I questioned them directly.

I really need to get over this hangup ... :cool:

[Zoopsia59]

I had that feeling a few times when I was in BsAs. When I danced with people who I also didnt realise were teachers. It made it sweeter that they only admitted they were when I questioned them directly.

I really need to get over this hangup ... :cool:

I asked a stranger at our local practica to dance one time thinking he was a newbie. Turns out he was the teacher/organizer of a major US city's festival and tango group. I only found out later, but we had the most divine CE dance which came as a total surprise since so few people around here at the time even TRIED CE, much less did it well.

[tangomonkey]

At my level I would not (knowingly) ask a teacher to dance. During group class I enjoy dancing with my teacher, but in "real life", ie. at a milonga, no way I'd ask her. I would be uncomfortable and too self-conscious to make the dance anything but awkward.

[tangobro]

Quick question : How many people here rarely dance with teachers at a milonga? Especially if there's a good pool of social dancers available in your area?

quick answer - very rarely. The times it's happpened I did not realize they were teachers until afterward.

[joegrohens]

Some teachers, especially if they are old, have a policy of not dancing with students at the milongas, because once they start, everyone wants to dance with them. And that can sometimes mean a lot of wear and tear, and is a risk if they are on teaching tour or performing.

I think sometimes when you are new to the dance you don't know how much strain can be put on the body by an inexperienced partner. Multiply that by 'everyone' and it can take its toll. I have known teachers to get injured from dancing with students. I took one to the emergency room for cortizone shots in the middle of the night.

If you wait for the male teacher to do the inviting, instead of asking, then he will dance with students if he wants to, and sit it out if he doesn't.

If you try to catch the eye of the female teacher and you can't, she will do what she wants. If they aren't dancing, and they don't take your cabeceo, leave them alone.

The dance teachers who hide in a corner are probably trying to avoid being verbally asked to dance by every dancer in the place.

I think that if you accept that social enjoyment is the reason for being at the milonga, then the teacher will dance for his or her own pleasure, not to help younger dancers learn how to dance.

....

Anecdote:

An Argentine man was giving workshops in our town. Afterwards, at the dance, he wasn't dancing, just chatting with people. One of the local ladies went up to him and ask him to dance.

He answered her: "In Argentina, the women do not ask the men to dance."

She smiled and replied: "Oh, OK. Would you like to ask me to dance then?"

He laughed and asked her to dance.

[Captain Jep]

Well I must admit.. I'm still confused. In my experience most teachers do sit away in a corner. I assume that they dont want to dance. Then the next thing I know is that someone has gone up to ask them directly and they're off onto the floor.And they appear to be enjoying themselves..

I do miss one thing from Argentina. Which is that the women there are actually looking out for the cabaceo. Here it's the exception and not the rule. And that I think applies to teachers as much as anyone else.

Maybe I expect a higher standard of behaviour from those who are teachers. And am not getting it. (It could be of course that they are deliberately avoiding my cabaceo .. but that's another thing ... :cool: )

[AndaBien]

Cap Jep, you're discussing teachers as thought they are a singular item, which they aren't. There is no answer to what all teachers want to do. I think if you treat any teacher the same way you'd treat anyone else, you'll do fine. If they look like they're interested in dancing, give it a shot. If they don't want to dance, I think you'll be able to realize that.

[AndaBien]

I only consider myself to be a teacher when I'm in class. Otherwise I'm just a dancer. Unless teachers have an agreement with their sponsor to show up at milongas and make themselves available, maybe those teachers don't consider themselves to be working outside of the classes.

[bastet]

I only consider myself to be a teacher when I'm in class. Otherwise I'm just a dancer.

Where's the heart icon when you need it? :kissme:

[Captain Jep]

Where's the heart icon when you need it? :kissme:

yes, exactly!! :D

[Steve Pastor]

Mi Corazon perdido en ti?

http://www.cmt.com/videos/brooks-dunn/26268/my-heart-is-lost-to-you.jhtml

[LoveTango]

I should have been more clear...

The declining ability aspect bothers me in general, but it's not the main reason. Mostly, I won't ask because I don't want to put them on the spot...for whatever reason. I expect them to be dancing with me when I'm paying them to (in a lesson), but when it's their free time as much as mine it is entirely their decision who they choose to dance with. If they don't want to dance with me on their off time, it is absolutely fine and I'm not going to force the issue or hold it against them. I don't want them to feel that they "have to" dance with me or else offend me (or, when I was taking lessons, risk losing a student)...or feel like I'm expecting special treatment because I pay for some of their time.

I feel the same.

[Angel HI]

I agree, as well. And, Ditto the following....I only consider myself to be a teacher when I'm in class. Otherwise I'm just a dancer..

[pascal]

Here we have so many teachers, and so many people starting to teach after three years of tango, that if you find yourself dancing with someone who is just near upper-intermediate, then you are most probably dancing with a teacher.

[opendoor]

Well said, may I add this: Here in Hamburg we are usually joking, we´ve got more tango teachers than tango folks :)

[bordertangoman]

Well said, may I add this: Here in Hamburg we are usually joking, we´ve got more tango teachers than tango folks :)

I'm sure there's a proverb which exemplifies this, but my mind forgets.....

[opendoor]

.. think it got to do with indians and sheep, doesn´t it?

[Captain Jep]

too many cooks and not enough Hamburgers?? ;)

[opendoor]

too many cooks and not enough Hamburgers :rocker:

baaah, that´s corny


cheers, by the way !

[Captain Jep]

baaah, that´s corny


cheers, by the way !

lol

Well there is a phrase "too many cooks in the kitchen". So I wasnt being completely irrelevant.

Cheers to you ... how's the bando repair going btw?

[opendoor]

I know... Finally I was faced some difficulties I could not fix. So I handed it over to Rocco Boness (a luthier and brilliant player in the city of Oldenburg). The box is overhauled and tuned now, which actually was quiet expensive. But now it is up to me to practise. (I shifted it to my next holidays :( )

[Zoopsia59]

too many cooks and not enough Hamburgers?? ;)

too many hamburgers, not enough cheese.

[dchester]

too many hamburgers, not enough cheese.
And what about the bacon?

[Zoopsia59]

And what about the bacon?

while we're at it, what's for dessert?

[AndaBien]

And what about the bacon?

The four "B"s of masculine cooking: beer, bacon, butter and there better be cheese.

[Zoopsia59]

The four "B"s of masculine cooking: beer, bacon, butter and there better be cheese.

take out the beer and you can cook for me anytime!

[opendoor]

crazy :D

[Captain Jep]

yep .. what a bunch of nutters .. :)

[Angel HI]

I'm sure there's a proverb which exemplifies this, but my mind forgets.....I believe it starts with, "Those who can't do...."

[dchester]

yep .. what a bunch of nutters .. :)
Don't be hating. It's not my fault you don't know how to make a good burger.

(no wonder you can't get teachers to dance with you)

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[UKDancer]

good + burger - a contradiction in terms? ;)

[Captain Jep]

Don't be hating. It's not my fault you don't know how to make a good burger.

(no wonder you can't get teachers to dance with you)

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

make+burger? I just eat them.

At least I dont smell of hamburger when I'm dancing with the lay-dies ...

:rolleyes: