Mambo versus Salsa

[Dennis Simmons]

Hello Dancers!
Please, bear with me as I make my points of clarification:


Salsa sucks when compared to Mambo.

Occasionally I do come across an authentic Mambo dancer . . . But, when I try dancing to the Salsa rhythm, the dance loses the excitement; and it becomes bland, it's like eating a burrito without salsa.

Whether or not salsa actually does suck is still somewhat open to question. Having conducted a mambo workshop, I can say for a certainty that anyone who learns the dance timings of rumba (that is to say, dancing on the claves of rumba) will find salsa dance timing a far less satisfying experience. Mambo and its sister form of rumba, the Cuban son, are more elegant, both in look and feel, than salsa. Even today, when I see young Puerto Ricans in the island, good dancers, dancing salsa, I can’t help but think what a shame it is that they will most likely never know mambo, as just a change of dance timing can transform good dancers into extraordinary dance teams.

My introduction to latin dance came on the west coast and, accordingly, the dance timing that I learned first was salsa. Salsa, by the way, is the invention of Puerto Ricans in the Bronx, who, after the withering of Cuban musical influences in New York (late 1950s – early 1960s), dressed the rhythm of plena (pleh-nah), from the musical and dance experience of their culture, in the trappings of Cuban music. Salsa reigns supreme on the west coast, as there is very little Cuban influence there, while the population of Central and South Americans swelled beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s. One of the most popular forms of music and dance in those south of the border areas is cumbia (koom-beeyah). While cumbia is quite different musically from the plena of Puerto Rico, it has the same rhythmic structure and, not surprisingly, the same dance timing. It is no accident that Colombianos and others with cumbia in their musical heritage have taken to salsa like fish take to water.

The rhythms of rumba (rrroom-bah) were imported into Haiti and Cuba in the 18th and 19th centuries. They are based on African traditions of pantheistic ceremony. While African religious ceremonial dances are known, they were performed only by men. Secular or social dancing between men and women was unknown in Africa until that idea was brought there from Europe. The term “rumba”, by the way, comes from the Bantu-Congolese word “lumba”, meaning to “get down” or to affirm. Because Cubans are famous for their confusion over “Ls” and “Rs”, we are left with the term rumba. Cuba, at the turn of the 20th century witnessed the secularization of rumba in the form of the changui (chahn-gwee), a predecessor of the Cuban son (sohn) and other popular forms of Cuban music that we know today, including variations of son known as guajira (wah-hee-rrrah), guaracha (wah-rrrah-chah), and guaguanco (wah-wahn-koh), as well as mambo (mahm-boh) and its cousin, the son montuno (sohn mohn-toon-oh). The changui was the dominion of the lower-class population of former slaves. It emerged as their answer to the Cuban danzon (dahn-sohn), the popular music and dance of the European elite in Cuba. The precursor of the danson, the French contradanza (kohn-tra-dahn-sah), was brought to Cuba in the middle 19th century by French refugees fleeing from the Haitian uprising. The French got it from the English, where it was known simply as the “country dance”. Not being much given to the English language, they heard it as “contradanza” (referring to dancing in opposition or facing each other).

In the first half of the 20th century, Cuba rapidly became a playground for the eastern seaboard of the United States. In the evenings, tourists danced to danzones played in the hotels by musical aggregations known as charangas (chah-rrrahn-gahss). The charanga was composed principally of classical instruments (violin, cello, base violin, piano, flute, clarinet, timbale, and, on occasion, saxophone) played by trained musicians, many of whom also played in the Havana symphony orchestra. By day, these same tourists were charmed by the lively rhythms of street-musician “conjuntos” (kohn-hoon-tohss) playing accordion, tres (trehss – a double-stringed guitar-like instrument tuned in thirds), trumpet, and a panoply of African percussive instruments. As you can imagine, tourists were soon requesting those more up-tempo rhythms for their evening’s entertainment. As a result of that popular social pressure for fusion of the two musical genres, a “montuno” (a sequence of repetitive up-tempo musical riffs cycling on an eight-count pattern) was tacked on at the end of the danzon. That ending musical interlude came to be known as the “mambo”, after the title of a piece composed by Orestes Lopez (the older brother of legendary Cuban bass violinist Israel “Cachao” Lopez) and first aired on Havana radio in 1939. Hence, danzon-mambo was born (although in Cuba it was generally known as danzon-moderno). In time, dancers urged musicians to drop the danzon altogether and to just play the mambo. In the late 1930s – early 1940s, the leading exponent of mambo was the legendary charanga of flautist Antonio Arcano (Ahrrr-kahn-yoh), which he dubbed “La Primera Maravilla del Siglo” (the first marvel of the century), more generally known by Cubans as simply Arcano y sus Maravillas (Arcano and his marvels). And marvelous they were, arguably the greatest assemblage of musicians on the planet – ever. Included in that group were the brothers Lopez, Orestes and Israel. In that same era, the undisputed leader of the conjunto style of music was the legendary band leader, composer, and master of the Cuban tres, Arsenio Rodriguez. He, too, incorporated the montuno into a musical style that he made famous, the son montuno (with the same rhythmic structure as mambo played by a charanga). Because what was happening in New York in the 1940s was big band sound, with its emphasis on horns and percussion, it was the son montuno of Arsenio Rodriguez that exploded onto the latin music and dance scene in that place and time. It is this musical genre that is today known in the United States as mambo. Thus, only the name “mambo” made the 90-mile crossing from Cuba. The original mambo (which I prefer for its amazing rhythmic syncopations) stayed behind.

The four principal latin dance timings are mambo (including son montuno), son (including guaguanco, guajira, and guaracha), salsa, and cha cha. While there are six claves (clah-vehss – drum syncopations based on an eight-count musical refrain composed of two measures of music in 4/4 time) associated with the pantheistic ceremonial music of Africa known generally as rumba, there are only two dance timings that are used for dancing to the popular music that has come to us from that religious ceremonial tradition. In the parlance of ballroom dance, those two dance timings are the “quick quick slow” version of rumba (the dance timing used for dancing to a mambo or to a son montuno) and the “slow quick quick” version of rumba (the dance timing used for dancing to a son, guaguanco, guajira, or guaracha). I like to refer to these two dance timings simply as mambo and son, respectively. The dance timing for cha cha is only a minor variation of mambo dance timing, wherein two quick steps (the “cha cha”) replace the mambo transitions of counts 4 and 8 of the eight-count (two-measure) musical refrain. Those of you who are interested in a detailed explanation of each of the four principal latin dance timings can bring up my thread “Latin Dance Timings” in this forum, or, if you let me know of your interest, I can send to you, as an e-mail attachment, a convenient chart in Word 6.0 format.


In one regard, I have to completely disagree with you. Dancing on the 1 beat has developed as a result of changes in the music. Mambo and Salsa are not the same thing. You might want to try searching on the word "Clave" or "Clave rhythm". Salsa has certainly changed, and along with it the dance has changed. Even New York style salsa dancers dance on the one beat. The only difference is they "break" on the 2. They are still pausing on 4. Everywhere you go these days, nearly everybody pauses on 4.

Yes, as you can see from the foregoing discussion, mambo and salsa have completely different musical origins, as well as distinct dance timings. I would also point out that the “pause” to which you refer is not really a pause (that is to say, where motion stops), but a transition between musical counts, wherein the foot is moving to step on the musical count immediately following the transition count. This transition is necessitated by the fact that three steps are taken in each four counts of music and it applies to all of the principal latin dance timings except cha cha, in which two quick steps ( the “cha cha”) replace the transition. You are correct in stating that that the transition counts for both salsa and mambo are counts 4 and 8 of the 8-count musical refrain. Again, regardless of dance timing, if the motion of dance is stopped during transition counts, the dance takes on a markedly choppy, awkward and generally unaesthetic appearance. This is most noticeable among novice dancers of salsa, owing to the structure of that particular dance timing.


I've checked with a friend of mine who was teaching for Arthur Murray’s back in the 1950's and he says that the standard was for Mambo to break on the 2, as in 2-3-4-(hold 1).

Yes, Art brought this simplified “two steps in four musical counts” version of mambo from Cuba to New York, either because he did not understand the dance himself, or because he felt that he could not easily teach it to his students (I don’t know which). At any rate, as a club dancer, I have always regarded as tragedy the fact that this completely contrived artifact has been proffered as “mambo” within ballroom dance circles over the past 50 years. I can assure you that Art’s “mambo” has never been seen in Cuba! The real thing (three steps in four musical counts), in the parlance of ballroom dance, is nothing more (or less) than a high octane version of “quick quick slow” rumba.


I learned Salsa before I learned Mambo so Mambo is difficult for me to follow because of the breaking on the 2. Now I have started to learn my Mambo steps in Salsa rhythm so that I can learn the steps w/o having to think (haha what a shame) and then dance it in Mambo timing when I get the hang of the steps. :] So much controversy over how it's all supposed to be done which doesn't matter unless you are either teaching or competing.

I also learned salsa dance timing first. However, I was fortunate to learn mambo from Eddie Torres in New York. I tell salsa-literate newcomers to mambo that their salsa background might put them at a disadvantage, as it is not an uncommon experience to have to “unlearn” salsa in order to learn mambo (I know I did). Anyway, it appears that you are exactly the person I need to translate salsa routines to mambo.

[DanceMentor]

I'm a little curious about the third step on beat 4 (and 8) of the Mambo. In my experience, it's more of a side step in Mambo, while in LA style salsa it's more of a progressive forward and back step. Could we say that Mambo has more of a sideward motion than salsa? Or are there other salsa styles that incorporate this side step?

[SDsalsaguy]

I can say for a certainty that anyone who learns the dance timings of rumba (that is to say, dancing on the claves of rumba) will find salsa dance timing a far less satisfying experience.
:shock: That's almost like saying that everyone who's tried cherries won’t find blueberries as satisfying!

Mambo and its sister form of rumba, the Cuban son, are more elegant, both in look and feel, than salsa.
I'm sorry, but "are more elegant"? Honestly, that's an aesthetic judgment…and you are certainly entitled to your own tastes and preferences, but just as with anything in life, there is never just one way that is the "right" one. Indeed, there will always be personal taste and preference….and that’s part of what makes club/street style dancing so rich!

[Black Sheep]

Dennis Simmons,
I just had to congratulate you on your excellent Commentary on 'Mambo vs. Salsa', and thank you for the education. It is *******ing to read informative, well stated dissertations.
My Commentary of July 1st may not add anything except that my love for the Mambo music and dance motivated me to recall my less erudite treatment of the subject. It is reproduced here:
"Music has a strong influence on dance moods and styles. Most of today's popular Swing music does not grab me as a good Lindy Hop mood. And today's Salsa music does not create the mood for my old time Mambo, but I did not know why until one of my students, Venus Arabayan, who has been studying Ballroom dancing as my protégé for only three months, gave me the solution to this Salsa Mambo confusion that has been buzzing in my mind since 1999 when I first experienced Salsa music and dancing for the first time in my life at Jim Myron's Grand Ballroom in L.A. At that time, I witnessed some 1,500 Salsa dancers gyrating to what sounded to me at the time like Mambo music, but there was something significantly different that I couldn't put my finger on until just last week, 4 years later, when I was introducing Venus and Mundo Arabayan to the Mambo.
I had bought a Salsa CD for the lesson, and within an hour after showing this couple the difference styles of both Mambo and Salsa, they individually kept having trouble holding 4&1 beats and breaking on 2 in the Mambo style. This went on for a couple of records. Finally this 16 year old who had started dancing only three months ago, turns to me and says,"Mr. Joe, this Salsa music is too fast for us to hold the 4&1." I stopped, looked at her and listened to the music for a phrase or two and suddenly it dawned on me and I replied, "Venus you are right!" That is why even I was even having trouble holding 4&1 and breaking on 2. The tempo was so fast, all I had time for was to count 1, 2, 3 before the next measure of music came up.
Then I realized how significantly music influenced the style of dancing, thanks to Venus' astute musical sense. 'Words of wisdom from the mouths of babes often come'. Venus is 16 years old, definitly a babe! and definitely a lady, but I thought that adage kind of fit the situation. After listening to some Salsa CD's and some Tito Puente and Cal Tjader Mambos, I realized it was not only the tempo (speed) of the music but also the different instrumentation of the Mambo music that was different. And so I more clearly understood why Swing dancers are not dancing the smooth style of the Savoy Lindy of the 1950's, and the Salsa dancers are not dancing the innovative style of the Puerto Rican Mambo of the 1950's.
It is the Tempo and Instrumentation that is the Key to producing that sound that grabs a dancer. That's why Glenn Miller was so successful; he knew exactly the Tempo and Instruments he needed to produce that smooth harmonious sound to grab the dancers.
Mambo Instruments: piano, vibes, congas, bass, bongos, timbales, sax.
Salsa Instruments: I admit I do not know enough about Salsa music to designate the instruments that give Salsa that Salsa sound. Maybe some of you Salsa musicians can give us the musical tools that make the Salsa swing."

Black Sheep

[Dennis Simmons]

I'm a little curious about the third step on beat 4 (and 8) of the Mambo. In my experience, it's more of a side step in Mambo, while in LA style salsa it's more of a progressive forward and back step. Could we say that Mambo has more of a sideward motion than salsa? Or are there other salsa styles that incorporate this side step?

Counts 4 and 8 are the mambo transitions, so that no step is taken on them. On count 4 the man's right foot is moving forward (in the air) to step on count 5 (the woman's left foot is, of course, moving backward on that count). The basic step pattern of all four principal latin dances that I have described is forward / back (no step to the side). Now, you can dance all four to the left or to the right, using the same basic step pattern (except, of course, the steps are then taken to the side rather than forward and back).
It occurs to me that perhaps you are thinking of the classical rumba step patterns for both the "quick quick slow" (breaking counts 2 and 6) and "slow quick quick" (breaking counts 3 and 7) versions of rumba, wherein the man does step to the side with his right foot on count 5. The tempo of early rumba pieces was leisurely and conducive to this lilting side to side motion. The tempo of modern-day mambo does not allow that luxury.

[Dennis Simmons]

I can say for a certainty that anyone who learns the dance timings of rumba (that is to say, dancing on the claves of rumba) will find salsa dance timing a far less satisfying experience.
:shock: That's almost like saying that everyone who's tried cherries won’t find blueberries as satisfying!

Mambo and its sister form of rumba, the Cuban son, are more elegant, both in look and feel, than salsa.
I'm sorry, but "are more elegant"? Honestly, that's an aesthetic judgment…and you are certainly entitled to your own tastes and preferences, but just as with anything in life, there is never just one way that is the "right" one. Indeed, there will always be personal taste and preference….and that’s part of what makes club/street style dancing so rich!

Well, try those cherries. I know that you will like them! And, you have only to gain and nothing to lose by doing so, right? If Eddie still has his mambo workshop happening in New York, that would be the one. For my money, he is the leading exponent of mambo in the world today.

[Dennis Simmons]

I just had to congratulate you on your excellent Commentary on 'Mambo vs. Salsa' . . .

Well, thanks for that! I have had a long love affair with cuban music and dance.

Teaching Swing with the music turned off, is like teaching swimming in an empty swimming pool.

I think I know what you mean. Dance is the means by which I give expression to what I am feeling in the music. Therefore, my emphasis has always been on teaching rhythm, with step patterns secondary. While the ability to use a variety of routines does keep it interesting, if memorizing steps were the main thing, I never would have bothered.

[Black Sheep]

Dennis,
What you are espousing for Mambo, I am trying to do for the Lindy. Only when you have been on both sides of the tracks can you make an empirical judgment! Without that background your decisions are metaphysical, based on faith supported by nebulous concepts espoused by meaningful wannabees but nonetheless metaphyisicists.
Black Sheep

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
When first learning the Mambo, it is easier to use that side step on the 'One count.
In Cha Cha which has the same rhythmic breaks as in Mambo, the three side steps are executed on the 4 & 1 counts, counted 'Cha Cha Cha and with the break forward or backward on the Two count.
Eventually those side steps in Mambo can be substituted for many variations of foot or body moves.
By the way, When I said , " Salsa Sucks when compared to Mambo", I could have used a more moderate word...but then who would have noticed!

Black Sheep

[salsarhythms]

I hope no one gets offended here, but here goes
anyway...

This topic always gets me...Izzy Sanabria (known as
"Mr. Salsa") said it best...there will always be so-called
"experts" preaching about what salsa is and where
it came from...

Bottom line is this:

This whole mambo vs. salsa makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER...

Why do I say this?

Well, instead of being like the rest of the crowd
and giving you second-hand information, I'll give you
the chance to get it straight from the source...

Mr. Salsa himself, Izzy Sanabria who was in the middle
of this entire thing...

Mr. Salsa says the following: (Chances are you had no idea
about what you're about to read...)

Click here to see what Mr. Salsa himself, Izzy Sanabria has to say... (http://www.salsamagazine.com/generic5.html;$sessionid$TV0L4DYAAAOH3TZENUFXBMWPE RWRJPX0)

[youngsta]

Bottom line is this:

This whole mambo vs. salsa makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER...

I swear if I hear someone try to make the argument again I'm gonna just scream! They're both great. I love them both. One fits my style more, but doesn't keep me from dancing the other. Just Dance!

[salsarhythms]

Hey Youngsta...

Check out the article I referenced above...you'll see that
in reality the following statement is true:

Salsa=Mambo=Salsa=Mambo

They do not come from different musical roots...they
are one and the same...it's just a term that was coined
to produce interest...

Same music, same artists playing it, just a different
name for it...

Mambo Vs. Salsa does not make sense because there's
no such thing!! =)

The dances may vary now, but that's because like any
other art form, it is constantly evolving...however, mambo
salsa = same thing...

[borikensalsero]

Can't help but to noticed that ever since I got into the dance scene and began meeting California dancers they all refered to salsa and mambo dancing as different dances. I was like whattt? Until I learned what they meant. Today as I read posts I can't help but to notice how we refer to salsa and mambo as two different dances still, although the moves, the steps, the counts, the dips, and so on are all the same for each, something of which we in NYCity care very little to do. BTW... We don't step on the 4 nor the 8. We skip over them in our way to 1 and 5... We dance 1,2,3 5,6,7 as opposed to the old 2,3,4 6,7,8 style.

After a few years of research and countless hours of talks with Nydia Ocasio amongst many in NY City I began to comprehend why people mention salsa and mambo distinctively...

Looking back in History, mambo, from day one was danced on1. The cowbell was so easily audible that people would step on it to dance. Not until dancers began to notice that the Son Montuno tempo of dancing on2 could be applied to mambo did they begin to dance Mambo on2. Although mambo was danced to some extent on2, its wide spread popularity only caused it to be danced on1 until NY City dancers made the on2 very popular for dancing mambo then salsa. When the music genus known as salsa took off, alot of NY City dancers began using the on2 style to dance Salsa. Salsa is a street beat, with wild descargas and usually socio-political issues from el barrio lifestyle. Mambo is more of a montuno music, as well as more reserved, fancier to a sense and a bit more "classy".

Dancing is all about taste, it doesn't matter what beat you dance to as long as you love it. Regardless of what I like or how much I like it, I doesn't mean that you will too. I can only speak of my expiriences and feelings not yours....

[borikensalsero]

Hey Youngsta...

Check out the article I referenced above...you'll see that
in reality the following statement is true:

Salsa=Mambo=Salsa=Mambo

They do not come from different musical roots...they
are one and the same...it's just a term that was coined
to produce interest...

Same music, same artists playing it, just a different
name for it...

Mambo Vs. Salsa does not make sense because there's
no such thing!! =)

The dances may vary now, but that's because like any
other art form, it is constantly evolving...however, mambo
salsa = same thing...

Hello SalsaSkills... Willie Colon, Johnny Pacheco, Hector Lavoe, etc can stand as witness that Mambo and Salsa although from the same tree they are not the same branch...

[borikensalsero]

Hey Youngsta...

Check out the article I referenced above...you'll see that
in reality the following statement is true:

Salsa=Mambo=Salsa=Mambo

They do not come from different musical roots...they
are one and the same...it's just a term that was coined
to produce interest...

Same music, same artists playing it, just a different
name for it...

Mambo Vs. Salsa does not make sense because there's
no such thing!! =)

The dances may vary now, but that's because like any
other art form, it is constantly evolving...however, mambo
salsa = same thing...

Hello SalsaSkills... Willie Colon, Johnny Pacheco, Hector Lavoe, etc can stand as witness that Mambo and Salsa although from the same tree they are not from the same branch...

So sorry... Meant to say they are not the same branch instead of from the same branch... my appologies

[salsarhythms]

One thing to note in the article is that many artists were
against this term "Salsa".

It's understandable of course, no one likes to see their
art form being categorized as something else...

Yes there are many different ways to dance to the
music, and I usually like to leave that up to interpretation.

I was raised in the bronx, so to me I never even knew
that these types of arguments were going on...however
in my opinion there is no difference...it was simply a
term that was used to create a buzz by a very creative
promoter...

[salsarhythms]

By the way borinken, where in NY are you from?

And yes, we skip 4 and 8...

1,2,3 5,6,7

[youngsta]

Hey Youngsta...

Check out the article I referenced above...you'll see that
in reality the following statement is true:

Salsa=Mambo=Salsa=Mambo

They do not come from different musical roots...they
are one and the same...it's just a term that was coined
to produce interest...

Same music, same artists playing it, just a different
name for it...

Mambo Vs. Salsa does not make sense because there's
no such thing!! =)

The dances may vary now, but that's because like any
other art form, it is constantly evolving...however, mambo
salsa = same thing...
I know this salsarhythms, but I've seen this argument before and usually in this case the person equates salsa=on1 and mambo=on2 (la clave). The same on1/on2 argument dressed in different clothes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I thought he was doing.

[salsarhythms]

Hey Youngsta...

I think there are two things we're mixing here...

On 1, On 2, rueda...those are just styles of dance...
as far as the music is concerned there is no distinction...

I see your point, to me, what I got from Izzy was that
it was basically the same music, he just promoted it
as Salsa through the Fania label so that it would get
more recognition from the press...

I just think that there is no difference...yes different styles
evolve in different ways, but it still has the same foundation.

My thing with referencing this article was that...=)

Know what I mean?? Or is this becoming too crazy... :D

I know it is for me simply because of the sheer volume
of thoughts and opinions on the subject...

[Dennis Simmons]

This topic always gets me...Izzy Sanabria (known as "Mr. Salsa") said it best...there will always be so-called "experts" preaching about what salsa is and where it came from...

What salsa is and where it came from are well-documented facts about which “preaching” is hardly relevant. You might want to take a look at Vernon Boggs interview of Izzy conducted August 22, 1991 and printed in the November 1991 issue of Latin Beat magazine. You will also find in that issue my article entitled “Mambo versus Salsa”. In the course of his interview, Mr. Boggs asked: “Are we justified, Mr. Sanabria, in referring to Los Van Van, Irakere, Adalberto (Alvarez) y su Son, Roberto Faz, Aragon, etc. . . as playing salsa music?” Izzy’s reply: “It might be an insult to do that.”

Let me state the matter more clearly. Ignorance of other cultures is no license to trash them, regardless of one’s propensity for making a buck. The musical and dance heritage of Cuba is unquestionably the richest of any culture throughout history. Puertorriquenos and others of non-Cuban extraction are notoriously lacking in their knowledge and appreciation of that heritage, with the notable exception of people like Tito Puente, Larry Harlow, Henry Fiol, musicologists Max Salazar and Vernon Boggs, and, more recently, Ry Cooder, who are among the relatively few that have troubled to educate themselves about it.

This whole mambo vs. salsa makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER...

Perhaps it makes no sense to the uninformed, but let me assure you that musical forms based on the claves of rumba are entirely different from the music originated by Puertorriquenos living in the Bronx in the late 1960s within the musical void created by a fabulously enlightened policy toward Cuba that is still with us today, as are the dance timings used to dance to those very distinct musical genres.

Cuban musicians of that era, like Machito and Mongo Santamaria, were quick to point out that distinction. Unfortunately, in stating that many of Fania’s finest were playing their interpretation of Cuban music “badly”, they failed to succinctly explain the distinction, which is that salsa has its rhythmic emphasis on counts 1 and 5 of the 8-count musical refrain, just as does the plena of Puerto Rico and, completely coincidentally, the cumbia of central and south America. It should not come as too much of a surprise that, left to their own devices, Puertorriquenos in New York fell back on their musical heritage, dressing it in the trappings of Cuban music, but without the musical essence of that music.

As I have detailed in my thread “Latin Dance Timings” in this forum, the dance timings for mambo and son Cubano (“son”, by the way, is Cuban shorthand for baile del salon, i.e., parlor dance) are quite distinct from the dance timing for salsa and they have an entirely different look and feel.

Of course, my different take on this matter might simply come down to the difference in perspective of one who has an abiding appreciation for latin music and dance as opposed to the perspective of someone who wants to sell something.

[youngsta]

:lol: Yeah I'm confused too. He's talking about the music?

[Dennis Simmons]

Hey Youngsta...

Check out the article I referenced above...you'll see that
in reality the following statement is true:

Salsa=Mambo=Salsa=Mambo

They do not come from different musical roots...they
are one and the same...it's just a term that was coined
to produce interest...

Same music, same artists playing it, just a different
name for it...

Mambo Vs. Salsa does not make sense because there's
no such thing!! =)

The dances may vary now, but that's because like any
other art form, it is constantly evolving...however, mambo
salsa = same thing...

Well, as I have explained to you in my prior post, you are full of prunes.
You do not know what you are talking about. My recommendation is that you become educated on this subject before causing yourself further embarrassment.

[salsarhythms]

Rather than point out the obvious personal attacks, I'll let
your comments stay for everyone to see...

As far as your other comments, this is why it makes no sense:

Being of Puerto Rican, and Cuban, and Dominican nationality
I will not argue of the richness of my culture. Now, to say
that the Cuban culture is the richest, well, that's a matter of
opinion.

Those same artists you speak of are the same ones who
would be against calling their music "Salsa"...not because
of the promoter who, in your words, is out to make a buck,
or because there is such a huge difference that it would be
an insult to put it in its own category...but because of one thing:

Ego's the size of countries.

Ego's so big that they will take a resonable person, and make
them say unreasonable things.

You see, salsa is what it is today because of these "out to sell
something" promoters, because of the musicians, because of
the Puerto Ricans, because of the Cubans, because of the Haitians
(Yes I said Haitians), because of the Africans...should I keep going?

Or was it that life started in Cuba?

I'm not sure about you, but it's pretty general knowledge that it
did not start in Cuba...it's bigger than Cuba, it's bigger than Puerto
Rico, however, I don't know if it's bigger than some of the
ego's surrounding this whole scene.

Sure say what you'd like, scream, shout, insult, but the fact
remains, had it not been for these promoters, chances are
that the world would not have known about Son montuno (By the
way, thanks for the definition of the word "son"...), or Bomba,
y Plena, or Guaguanco, or Abakua, or Bembe (All rhythms with
roots in Africa).

I personally could not love a culture more than my own hispanic
culutre, but I too see the negative...and one of those is the
reason why this argument is argued over and over...

Because of ego, plain and simple.

So it's not because I'm uninformed, but because in the whole scheme
of things, like I said before...

IT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER

Of course, we can always go with your way of thinking and simply
isolate every single culture and take away anything any culture
took from another culture...I wonder where'd we be...I can guarantee
you though, there'd be no such thing as Son if we did that...

[salsarhythms]

I would also like to add something here to Dennis...

I don't argue about the incredible contributions of Cuban
artists to music and dance, and in some cases you are
right in saying that many other hispanic artists may not
give proper credit to this heritage.

I can agree with you on that...

It's just that based on my own interpretation (which of
course that's all it is regardless of whose point of view
you share) there really is no such thing as salsa...it's
still very much mambo.

Again, that's my opinion...

[Dennis Simmons]

It's just that based on my own interpretation (which of course that's all it is regardless of whose point of view you share) there really is no such thing as salsa...it's still very much mambo.

Fernando,

I suppose, then, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Let me, however, point out several things. I have hardly been arguing the supremacy of one culture over another. While I happen to love the music of Puerto Rico (bomba, plena, decima, aguinaldo) and take every available opportunity to attend performances of typical music around the island, I am not tempted to throw these musical forms into the "salsa" basket. Further, because I live in the island, I happen to know that Puerto Ricans, in the main, know nothing about music that is based on African rumba. The music that derives from rumba has never been danced on counts 1 and 5 of the 8-count musical refrain, a rhythmic emphasis characteristic of plena and other genres of Puerto Rican music. Now, the apparent gap between fact and what you might hear from Puerto Ricans could be accounted for in the fact that, with the possible exception of folks in the state of Texas, they are among the most closed-minded and provincial people on the planet. Don't misunderstand me, I adore both the people and the culture of this island. But, they do have their ticks (possibly it's something in the water). It is their general view that, if they have not heard of it, either it doesn't exist or, at the minimum, it cannot possibly be worth anything. Not surprisingly, when Willie and Hector started doing their thing in the Bronx, they went with what was within their musical experience. That is why salsa is structured musically on counts 1 and 5 and has been danced, from day one, on counts 1 and 5 of the 8-count musical refrain.

Well, before laying aside this point of contention, Fernando, I will ask your indulgence in one final request. Humor me, if you will, by having a listen to some of the great contemporary music by Africans and African emigres, most notable among them Sam Mangwana ("Rumba Music"), Africando ("Baloba" and "Mandali"), and a 2003 entry from coastal Columbia that is not to be believed, Batata y Su Rumba Palenquera ("Radio Bakongo"), then tell me whether or not you find any essential difference (from a music and dance perspective) between that music and the music of New York. If you can't find these CDs locally, you can get them from Bruce at Descarga.com.

[will35]

I'm just curious. It is a big hassle to go to Cuba to find out myself. So I am asking here. How much does what the rumba people dance in the ballrooms in the United States resemble the baile(s) de salon that people dance today in Cuba? Do they teach dances there, or do they just dance? Is there some gov't program to promote, categorize, syllabize the various dances? Is there a right way and a wrong way in Cuba? Does Fidel dance to the danzon? I saw a book a few days ago by a guy who claimed to have introduced the rumba to Florida and to the United States. It had some footprint diagrams of some exercises and rumba steps. Sounded like a crock to me. Who knows?

[salsarhythms]

Dennis,

You know, I was reading your post, and when I got to the part
where you said:

"Now, the apparent gap between fact and what you might hear from Puerto Ricans could be accounted for in the fact that, with the possible exception of folks in the state of Texas, they are among the most closed-minded and provincial people on the planet."

I started to become very upset...

I then began to think about my own experiences and, surprisingly
enough, I began to settle down.

Yes they are a proud people.

And, yes, hard-headed, but...

Who isn't?

I usually don't go around making generalizations and I won't
start now.

The main reason why I started to calm down after reading that
is that at some point we have all been guilty of such stereotypes.

The Cubans say that about the Puerto Ricans.

The Puerto Ricans say that about the Cubans.

Even as I grew up in a mixture of Puerto Rican, Dominican and
Cuban family, I heard it all along....

"Oh well, titi Iris is just like that...cause she's Puerto Rican"

or

"That's what you get when you marry a Cuban"

or any number of other things...

That was the main reason why I decided to travel, and to basically be
away from all of my family. I grew absolutely sick and tired of
it. But it's still there...

I'm sure everyone who speaks like that has their reasons...but really
who's close-minded...the Puerto Ricans you speak of, or yourself
who sees things so broadly as to say something like that of an
entire culture and an entire people?

Please don't get me wrong, when I say "you", I also include everyone
who I've come across with similar attitudes...including my family.

I will get the CD's you mention, because in reading and re-reading
your posts, I have been able to take away a lot of great information
and believe me, regardless of how our opinions may differ, I thank you
for the time you have taken out and informed both myself and the
community here at Dance-Forums.

I truly feel that you are very passionate about this subject, I just
ask that comments like that be left to the privacy of your own home.

Never would I want someone to come in here and have a preconceived
notion as to who are the Puerto Ricans, or the Cubans or the
Dominicans. And I say this for the same reasons that you are living
in Puerto Rico...because they are truly beautiful people, just like
all the others in our Hispanic heritage and I just don't think that a
generalization like that would be a good thing for anyone.

[Dennis Simmons]

Fernando,

If the charge is hyperbole, then of course my plea is guilty. Obviously, there are many Puertorriquenos like yourself that don't fit that mold. Just the fact of having left the island is the mark of a broader perspective than that. My father, for example, born and raised in Ponce and an incredible natural dancer, was anything but narrow in his world view.

Still, sarcasm can be a useful tool for emphasis of a point where there is at least a modicum of truth in it. The comment was really directed at islanders who have never been away from the island and who have either not had the opportunity or have not availed themselves of the opportunity for an education. My intent is not to cast aspersions (I could catalog my own warts, but I won't trouble you with that here) but to point to the reality of life for many in this island. That in no way compromises my respect and love for the people and the culture of Puerto Rico. They are a warm, disarmingly open, and creative people who are, pound for pound, probably the greatest musicians on the planet. Nevertheless, I do take some of their opinions with a grain of salt.

[salsarhythms]

I can definately understand that, because not only have I
seen it around me...but it's in my family as well...so to a
point I understand what you mean.

Obviously, hearing that from someone you don't know about
your people, it kind of gives you a bit of a spark...which is what
I pointed out in my last post...

But all that aside...

Let's get this thing back on track...I've seen some of your posts
and have truly enjoyed them...let's come up with something else
we can disagree on...

What do you say?? :wink:

I think the Mambo Vs. Salsa thing is pretty much dead now, not
just here but everywhere else...

I'd like to see a post about other aspects of this explosion
of salsa...Where do you think it came from? The promoters, the
artists, the puertoricans, the cubans...?? (Not trying to stir up
controversy, but these are subjects I'm very interested in and would
like to see some discussions on it...)

So Dennis, Boriken, and absolutely everyone else, please, post away.

[Black Sheep]

Salsa Lovers,
I changed my mind when I said, 'Salsa sucks when compared to Mambo'.
After a few exposure to some classy Salsa dancing at the PBDA, I finally saw the beauty of salsa, and relized I was comparing oranges with apples. I would like to go on record as saying Salsa is every bit a great dance as Mambo and although there is a generic relationship to the Mambo, they are equally unique and exciting.
I have a saying, "When you are wrong, admit it and then you become right!"
Black Sheep, "Talk is Cheap, but Verification is Golden". Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[borikensalsero]

I can definately understand that, because not only have I
seen it around me...but it's in my family as well...so to a
point I understand what you mean.

Obviously, hearing that from someone you don't know about
your people, it kind of gives you a bit of a spark...which is what
I pointed out in my last post...

But all that aside...

Let's get this thing back on track...I've seen some of your posts
and have truly enjoyed them...let's come up with something else
we can disagree on...

What do you say?? :wink:

I think the Mambo Vs. Salsa thing is pretty much dead now, not
just here but everywhere else...

I'd like to see a post about other aspects of this explosion
of salsa...Where do you think it came from? The promoters, the
artists, the puertoricans, the cubans...?? (Not trying to stir up
controversy, but these are subjects I'm very interested in and would
like to see some discussions on it...)

So Dennis, Boriken, and absolutely everyone else, please, post away.


I'd like to see a post about other aspects of this explosion
of salsa...Where do you think it came from? The promoters, the
artists, the puertoricans, the cubans...?? (Not trying to stir up
controversy, but these are subjects I'm very interested in and would
like to see some discussions on it...)


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh,
There are a bunch of stories going around of where salsa came from. There is the one that musicologists have, which aside from very minor details, is the same and the ego filled 100's of stories waged by proud member of the Mambo community.

When speaking of about salsa explosion, we can't leave out the jazz muscians as well as the other ethnic groups musician's who made their living inside the NYC music scene, from the 50s to the 80s. Salsa really ins't a creation of the rican community in el Barrio, but the joined work of all the talented artists that worked out of NY City. Yes, there was a lot of talented rican artists but there was also black, jews, dominicans, etc.
First and foremost we must mention Johnny Pacheco and Jerry Masucci, why first? Because they are the creators of Fania who in turn compiled the greatest talents in NY City and rode the wave of some of the best salsa in the 70's. A lot of arguments go around speaking of salsa in the 50s and 60s, too bad the first song labled as a salsa wasn't until 68 or 69. I forget who released it, and even worse, I forget the song. Musicologist say that before salsa there was pachanga from 65 to 69, and before that was boogaloo from 60 to 65. As it is believed the closest relative of salsa is the pachanga, only because straight out of this wave of new music, salsa followed. Those are the only 3 latin beats that have been born straight out of NY City. The other lousy argument of Tito Puente calling Salsa something he puts in his food is even worse, why so? To understand we must first follow his musical background, Tito studied the classics at Juilliard School of Music. He was a music purist, he couldn't allow Mambo to turn into a wild street beat and call it salsa, so he kept calling it Mambo... Learning more about his background will yield his reasoning behind his famous sentence. To me they are different, if to you they are the same, then so be it. After all even guaguanco, guajira, son monutno sounds very close to mambo. Also remember that the term salsa was never used until after Fania at the Cheetah in 71 was way over. 2 of my instructors were actually there when this happened. Oh, the stories they have.

Now going back to the origin of salsa, I can't be a purist and say Africa, as many which to argue, only because if that was the case then there wouldn't be any type of anyone in the world but africans and we all know that isn't the case. We have all evolved to be our own group. Just as salsa did evolved to become what it is.

The first use of the clave is attributed to Cuban son. The clave beat is what holds salsa together, just as almost all latin beats. So when speaking of the roots of salsa we shouldn't look any further than Cuba as its building blocks. The Afro rhythms incorporated in what later became know as salsa also has it's roots in mainly cuban music, but also, Dominican, Rican, even columbian.

The vocals and lyrical building of salsa is Spaniard, or european if you wish. So is the count, in African music there was no count, in fact that is the reason the european 4 beats to a musical measure mold of playing music was added to latin styles. It was very difficult to add other instruments to the wild quadruple (I also forget the musical lingo for this kind of wild music which doesn't play to eurpean mold) syncopated percussion routines which many african rhythms were known for. The longest African measure is said to have 23 beats. Out of european numbers came the number rountine for dancing as well. Latin music, nor Afro-Latin dancing ever had it before.

The leading founding father of salsa is Willie Colon. Although Johnny Pacheco was the founder of la fania he was never able to ride the new wave so he decided to sit back and remake old cuban classics. He stayed with his charanga beat and added cuban songs to his repertoire.

Willie Colon is attributed with giving a chance to Lavoe, as well as Blades. Almost all great new musicians came way of Willie Colon's band. Willie is also the one who persuaded Blades to give Lavoe the song El Cantante which was originally meant for Blades to sing. The mastermind behind Fania's salsa beats is Louie Rodriguez who is said to have written over 100 songs a month during a period of time, some horrible ones as well. He is also credited with ending Salsa Dura and giving birth to the first salsa romantica album in 82, which to that date became the best selling salsa album ever. Why? Salsa music finally hit a home-run with the female latin population, something it failed to do during the hay-days of salsa dura.

Although Celia became the Queen of Salsa she isn’t a direct child of salsa. She was an already made singer when she came to the states and got involved in the scene. Ruben Blades is accredited with keeping salsa dura alive after Louie messed it up. If it wasn’t for Ruben salsa dura would have died in 82.

An unknown band to new salseros which was thought to be the one band to listen for new wild beats in the world of salsa was Los Flamboyan. A band led by Frankie Dante, who was known for trying anything and everything, plus giving the liberty of all his musicians to put their two cents into almost every song. Rumor has it that he was Black Labeled by Ralph Mercado. I must believe the rumor, I gave Ralph Mercado a ride to his apt once and we got talking about why he can’t play Frankie Dante’s stuff in his club and he was very resilient to speak about him and told me that they had their differences. Maybe I’m the one jumping to conclusions.

While salsa was growing huge in NY a group know as El Gran Combo also began playing the new beat. A more laid back version of the Salsa Dura from NY City but never the less, this new music genre catapulted the group to become the ultimate in Salsa music for the passed 40 years. This group has been the measuring stick for all other salsa bands. El gran combo was formed out-of-the disarray of Cortijos band. :shock: Cortijo’s band was popular in PR for a great beat of Bomba, and plena. Cortijo is also accredited with teaching Roena the bongos and persuading Maelo to start singing. God, I almost forgot to mention Tito Curet Alonso. In my opinion the gratest salsa song writter ever! How can one argue, with songs such as Calle Luna - Calle Sol, Juanito Alimaña, La Cura, El Periodico De Ayer, Anacaona, Las Caras Lindas....

To cut it short as not to bore you guys from all my spewing, I accredit the explosion of salsa to the living conditions of el barrio at the time. The Barrio got its chance to shine and be proud of something which was theirs. Something that would sooth their aching lives; salsa. While at Salsa Clubs in NY City, Ricans, Dominicans, Blacks, Jews, Italians were all the same. This was their one time to tell their stories through music, be at equal with the rest of NY city, and strut their lifestyle in what became main stream NY City in the 70s. And the lead runners mostly being New Yorkers made it that much great to be part of the salsa wave. Without mentioning names Fania compiled the greatest artist salsa has ever known. They are salsa, they also killed it trying to get into every new beat that formed in NY City, which turned a lot of people off. Ahhh, Tipica 73, Los Flamboyan, God, how bad do I want it to be the 70s all over again. Now, why in the world is Victor Manuel singing with Fania? I just don’t know.