Are a lot of male instructors bad leaders?

[wiseman]

I know this may possibly be a silly question, but I’ve been receiving quite a bit of comments from my mom lately. She takes private lessons with this male instructor and she said he’s an excellent leader. Very strong and clear, she claims. But whenever she dances with other instructors at parties, she complains they’re too light and there’s no connection. And she clams she can’t feel their lead and therefore, she messes up a lot. Mind you, my mom very rarely social dances. But during the few times she does, she says a few instructors are very good in leading her, while a lot of others are too light. Therefore, some of those “light” leaders can’t lead her well enough to make her look like a pro, like some other leaders can do with beginners.

It kind of puzzles me that she has these complaints. I’m sure these instructors have been social dancing for many years. Is it true that there are a lot of male dance instructors who are bad at leading? Or is it just my mom’s lack of experience?

[waltzgirl]

It sounds to me like she isn't experienced enough to "read" a light lead. If a follower is sufficiently responsive, it's possible to follow the merest suggestion of movement, provided the suggestion is made clearly and with the right parts of the body. The best lead I've ever danced with is so light that I can't really feel it at all; he's so expert at knowing where my weight is and in which split second to give the slightest lead to direct my weight where it needs to be. It's almost spooky to dance with him.

It sounds like her instructor has accustomed her to a heavy lead. I think she's a beginner, right? A lot of beginner followers are actually too dependent on their leaders; I know I was. My pro put up with it at first while he focused on other things, then we had a long period where the focus was on me dancing my own part in response to light leads, then we went back to (and still continually work on) strengthening and refining the connection. So her teacher may just be a heavy lead, or he may be focusing on other things right now and will adjust her connection and response to leads later on.

There's another factor with instructors at socials. Often a social is at the end of long day of teaching, and they're tired and in energy saving mode. If they sense a woman is looking to be muscled into her movement, they may just lighten up and keep it simple to keep from having to work that hard.

[Warren J. Dew]

Most male instructors are good leaders, especially with their own students. Some are not so good about teaching their students to be good followers. I think the latter issue may be affecting your mother.

[opendoor]

..whenever she dances with other instructors at parties, she complains they’re too light and there’s no connection...

I know this, alas it´s a common phenomenon: it shows disregard, indifference, or slackness. They could have done better, I´m sure!

[waltzgirl]

There's another factor as well. Anyone who dances primarily with only one other person gets very accustomed to that person's particular kind of lead and adapts her following to it (and vice versa, if the partners are both amateurs). If she rarely social dances, then she hasn't had much experience with the fact that every combination of bodies connects a bit differently, every leader is different, and how to adjust to different kinds of leads. So she dances well with leaders who lead similarly to her instructor, but doesn't know how to adjust to those who lead differently.

[suburbaknght]

The other commenters put it very well. It sounds like there are several issues here and her situation is likely a combination of them:

A) It's possible that your mother's instructor has focused on other areas of her dancing and has temporarily neglected lead and follow.

B) It's possible that your mother's instructor is an inexperienced teacher who is unclear how to teach the follower's role and has subsequently been leading her too heavy throughout her lessons.

C) It's possible that the other teachers are stuck up snobs or are inexperienced at social dancing and can't adjust their lead for your mother's level.

D) It's possible that your mother is too used to only dancing with one partner and doesn't know how to adjust her following for any other types of leaders.

I would recommend she discuss the situation with her current instructor, then book a few lessons (2-3) with different instructors so she can practice following different leaders without the pressure of a party.

[wiseman]

This is exactly why I’m not a big fan of private classes. They are excellent in the beginning when learning how to dance correctly, but in terms of leading and following, it doesn’t really get you anywhere. When I used to take private classes back in the summer, it was great at first. I was learning the steps at a fast rate. But then when I started dancing regularly with my instructor during the lesson, she always followed everything perfectly. Then she would reply, “Very good. That was perfect!!” I tried them out at socials, some with students and some with instructors…..not so perfect. Complete mess, to be honest.

I like going to group classes now because it gives me a chance to dance with different kinds of followers. And I’ve practiced with different partners regularly. And because of that, things have improved significantly since the first time I social danced. Not perfect, but MUCH better than it was 4 months ago when I first began to social dance.

Now, learning to lead is significantly different than learning to follow. But both skills require one thing….experience. A leader dancing with the same follower all the time and vice versa is not going to improve your leading and following skills.

So, I tend to agree that it’s possibly my mom’s lack of experience. If she had a problem with one or two instructors, I can see that. But when she claims that only a couple of them are “good” leaders while the rest of them are too light and unclear, something is not right.

[waltzgirl]

Actually, I suspect that most of them are fine leaders, and one or two of them are heavy leaders. But she's only used to and comfortable with the heavy leaders.

Besides, if she wants to social dance, she'll need to learn to adjust to regular leaders who are a lot worse than just about any instructor on earth! If social dancing is a goal for her, she should discuss the situation with her instructor. He might be able to give her different kinds of leads to help her learn to adjust.

Really, how does a beginner conclude that, if she can't dance with most of the instructors, it's those instructors who are bad, and not possibly something lacking in her dancing at this stage? It's fine to have a preference for a certain type of lead, but to jump to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't give it to you is "bad" seems a tad arrogant for someone with limited experience.

[wiseman]

It's fine to have a preference for a certain type of lead, but to jump to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't give it to you is "bad" seems a tad arrogant for someone with limited experience.

I have to agree. With her limited experience, she even told me several times that she's a good dancer provided that she dances with a good leader. :headwall:

[nucat78]

I know of at least one instructor who "pulls" inexperienced follows around when social dancing. They do marvelous things on the floor but the lady is not following, she's being herded.

YMMV.

[MidwestDancingGuy]

I know of at least one instructor who "pulls" inexperienced follows around when social dancing. They do marvelous things on the floor but the lady is not following, she's being herded.

YMMV.

"Wait, you mean this isn't the dancer herding apprenticeship class? :shock: :confused: I'm sorry, I must have the wrong address."

[fascination]

I think the initial question has alot of false options to begin with...and I think it is never wise to try to evaluate someone elses' dance experience...but most people, men and women, dance best with the person with whom they most often dance, instructor, spouse, whatever...and if they are not regularly in the practice of dancing with others, they will prefer what they get from the person with whom they are most accustomed...their success with others has most to do with how often they dance with others...not with the skill of their particular pro or regular partner

[wiseman]

It's fine if she says she prefers dancing with her instructor. But the reason I'm asking this question is because I'm wondering why she concludes that the instructors are "bad" leaders just because the lead is significantly different than her private instructor. She literally told me they were bad.

[danceronice]

It's fine if she says she prefers dancing with her instructor. But the reason I'm asking this question is because I'm wondering why she concludes that the instructors are "bad" leaders just because the lead is significantly different than her private instructor. She literally told me they were bad.

Because she doesn't have the experience or skill level to truly judge but is used to an instructor providing a very strong lead for whatever reason and therefore she assumes her instructor's right and the others are wrong. While that's possible, it's highly unlikely. Waltzgirl and Warren are most likely right.

And it depends on your experience. To me, group classes are useless for learning to follow unless all the leads in the class are substantially more advanced than the follows. I spent quite a lot of time with my first real instructor learning how to follow, as, the way he teaches, he felt it was more important for me to learn how to create a frame, stay in it, and give him something to lead, whether I had the routine memorized or not. It took some adjusting to adapt to Latin Pro, who has a much lighter lead and prefers I know the routine first, then worry about following him but having learned to follow from a very firm lead has actually helped. I honestly didn't realize how much I could 'hear' from his softer lead until OSB, where we wound up in heavy traffic several times and i didn't even have to think about going with him. Which is probably what Rhythm Pro was aiming for spending that much time on my learning to follow in the first place, despite coming at it from a different angle. I could have assumed LP was a 'bad' or 'wrong' lead because his lead doesn't feel like RP's, but I'd be wrong--they're focusing on different aspects of my dancing (and I'd like to think LP doesn't feel he needs to focus so much on my basic following skills!)

[wiseman]

I know of at least one instructor who "pulls" inexperienced follows around when social dancing. They do marvelous things on the floor but the lady is not following, she's being herded.

YMMV.

When instructors dance with a beginner follower, they usually do one of two things:

-Keep the dance at her level. This means that the dance remains simple and basic.

OR

-Drag her around so she looks like a pro on the dance floor.

Most instructors I’ve seen do the former.

[Larinda McRaven]

If he is dragging her around I really doubt she looks like a pro... Pros don't need to be dragged but are able to dance with the slightest whisper of a lead and take care of themselves.

[toothlesstiger]

[FONT=Verdana]This is exactly why I’m not a big fan of private classes. They are excellent in the beginning when learning how to dance correctly, but in terms of leading and following, it doesn’t really get you anywhere. When I used to take private classes back in the summer, it was great at first. I was learning the steps at a fast rate. But then when I started dancing regularly with my instructor during the lesson, she always followed everything perfectly. Then she would reply, “Very good. That was perfect!!” I tried them out at socials, some with students and some with instructors…..not so perfect.
My experience was different. I preferred to learn the figures in group class, learn to lead in private lessons, and (the critical piece) practice leading in group classes and social dances. I still use group classes as an opportunity to practice technique.

As to your mom's opinion and experience, if she can follow some leaders, but not others, I would modify some of the statements made already to say that some instructors are not able to lead her. It sounds like your mom has quite some confidence in her own following abilities.

[toothlesstiger]

I could have assumed LP was a 'bad' or 'wrong' lead because his lead doesn't feel like RP's, but I'd be wrong--they're focusing on different aspects of my dancing (and I'd like to think LP doesn't feel he needs to focus so much on my basic following skills!)

I don't know if your Rhythm Pro was focused on competition or social dancing. I have found that where the goal is competition, little to no attention is given to lead and follow, all the focus is on individual technique and choreography. Lead and follow comes later as a byproduct, it seems. As a result, I find it more challenging to dance socially with ladies that are learning from competition-focused pros. Not so bad in standard, but very tough in latin sometimes, when the only contact I have is through the hands.

[wiseman]

OK, I just had an interesting chat with my mom to clarify what exactly was her issue with those instructors that were leading her. These are the problems that she said....

1) No compression whatsoever. Her private instructor emphasizes to her the importance for the leader and follower maintain compression during the entire dance. Those male instructors that danced with her lacked the compression that her private instructor has. Never heard of this from any of my instructors, so I don't know anything about this. So, I'll leave that for the experts here to comment on.

2) Lack of moves. When these male instructors were dancing with her, her steps were getting all corrupted. So, they had to keep the dance simple and basic until she can get back on track. My mom didn't like the dance to be simple. She wanted the leaders to lead her into fancy moves while her steps were corrupted. She claimed that she's the kind of person that gets more confused if you keep the dance too simple. Had those instructors led her through more complex moves, she would've been able to get back on track. She claims her private instructor is very good at that. Her steps get corrupted, but he keeps on moving to complex stuff and she catches up eventually.

I asked my mom why her steps were corrupted in the first place. I question why she doesn't buy dance music and practice her basics on a daily basis. She said she doesn't need to because so long as the man is a good leader, she could do anything on the dance floor.

I don't know what the pros on this site have to say about my mom, but I personally think with that attitude, she's headed down a very wrong path, IMHO.

[Steve Pastor]

No compression whatsoever. Her private instructor emphasizes to her the importance for the leader and follower maintain compression during the entire dance. Those male instructors that danced with her lacked the compression that her private instructor has.

Other than how tightly the man holds the woman with his right hand/arm, it takes both partners to create "compression", which is a resistance to the lead.

She said she doesn't need to because so long as the man is a good leader, she could do anything on the dance floor.

A good follower can do things that she "doesn't know how to do" (ie patterns or "moves") if she follows some very basic rules. Mastering those basics, however, takes a whole lotta time and effort. However, most of us will tell you that most women who make this statement have little credibility.
I'm going to agree with your assessment of where your mom is going.

[Larinda McRaven]

I have found that where the goal is competition, little to no attention is given to lead and follow, all the focus is on individual technique and choreography. Lead and follow comes later as a byproduct, it seems. As a result, I find it more challenging to dance socially with ladies that are learning from competition-focused pros. Not so bad in standard, but very tough in latin sometimes, when the only contact I have is through the hands.

agreed

[danceronice]

I don't know if your Rhythm Pro was focused on competition or social dancing. I have found that where the goal is competition, little to no attention is given to lead and follow, all the focus is on individual technique and choreography. Lead and follow comes later as a byproduct, it seems. As a result, I find it more challenging to dance socially with ladies that are learning from competition-focused pros. Not so bad in standard, but very tough in latin sometimes, when the only contact I have is through the hands.

All competitive (pro-am.) I don't social dance if I can find an excuse not to. One reason I don't like social dancing is I never know what I"m going to get as far as leads go.

[nucat78]

All competitive (pro-am.) I don't social dance if I can find an excuse not to. One reason I don't like social dancing is I never know what I"m going to get as far as leads go.

Interesting. I've heard some (comp. and non-comp.) intermediate to advanced leaders say the same thing regarding followers at socials.

But perhaps that's another thread if it hasn't been discussed already. :eyebrow:

[Bailamosdance]

There are a lot of good points being made here. I agree that you can dismiss out of hand most of the 'If he is a good leader I can dance well - I just follow' folks due to the obvious fact that it is partner dancing and not herding (very funny lol). This manifests itself when the follow eventually takes a private and is asked to move themselves. Relearning movement after years of clumping around is disheartening to say the least and makes many followers give up and go back to social dance, usually saying to me 'What's the use? Nobody I dance with does it that way'. It's sorta sad really since many of these follows have a great feel for music and would probably learn how to dance easily.

And I always face an uphill battle when discussing this with social dancers who equate familiarity with quality - doing the same thing poorly with someone else repetitively eventually makes the movement that is well crafted seen alien or wrong. And the beginner who makes an assessment of your dancing after 3 months on the floor.

[Ray Sison]

Some of the female dancers that I know complain about being led with too much arm--including by beginning male instructors. But students and instructors have to start somewhere...

:cool:

[wiseman]

Not to defend my mom, but part of the problem was her private instructor has been highly praising her dancing. He says to her, "I'm not saying this to make you feel good, but you're a excellent follower. I really mean it."

Highly praising students is not really a smart move and sadly, I find it VERY common. It's either to sales pitch or to make the student feel good about themselves. Sure, it helps make them feel good, but it does nothing to motivate them to do better. I find that the best instructors I've had are the ones that don't praise me, but are constantly correcting me.

[danceronice]

That's more an issue of knowing your target market. It's a hard call--from teaching both adults and kids in learn to skate, the adults at least cared more about feeling competent than technical accuracy. These were adult beginner rec skaters, so the equivalent of casual social dancers. They aren't going to keep coming back to an instructor who is reminding them of the stuff they don't know or are doing wrong. They want to hear "Good job!" not "Now you need to work on..." Adult-start anything students can be very touchy, and it's unusual when you find one who wants to really get nitpicked apart.

[Ray Sison]

That's more an issue of knowing your target market. It's a hard call--from teaching both adults and kids in learn to skate, the adults at least cared more about feeling competent than technical accuracy. These were adult beginner rec skaters, so the equivalent of casual social dancers. They aren't going to keep coming back to an instructor who is reminding them of the stuff they don't know or are doing wrong. They want to hear "Good job!" not "Now you need to work on..." Adult-start anything students can be very touchy, and it's unusual when you find one who wants to really get nitpicked apart.


Myself, I respond to the balance of the two, as a student. As a teacher in other subjects, I am inclined to use velvet gloves...

[toothlesstiger]

As a teacher in other subjects, I would use a variation of the redirection that one uses on kids. ;-) "That's excellent, now let's move on to this aspect..."

[Ray Sison]

As a teacher in other subjects, I would use a variation of the redirection that one uses on kids. ;-) "That's excellent, now let's move on to this aspect..."

That's very well said...

[wiseman]

That's more an issue of knowing your target market. It's a hard call--from teaching both adults and kids in learn to skate, the adults at least cared more about feeling competent than technical accuracy. These were adult beginner rec skaters, so the equivalent of casual social dancers. They aren't going to keep coming back to an instructor who is reminding them of the stuff they don't know or are doing wrong. They want to hear "Good job!" not "Now you need to work on..." Adult-start anything students can be very touchy, and it's unusual when you find one who wants to really get nitpicked apart.

But because her teacher keeps saying "good job," she feels there's no need to practice. She's like, "My teacher says I'm good and never said I needed practice. So why do I need to practice." So, she feels that all she needs is a good leader and she's good to go.

As a leader, I have to learn to be creative on the dance floor in order to keep the dance interesting, I need to know how to establish a connection with different types of followers, I need to make sure the follower feels comfortable, and I need to make sure my leading is clear enough for the follower to follow. It would help a great deal in the leading process if the follower, at least, knew their basics. If they need time to learn it, that's fine. But when a follower keeps saying, "I don't need practice. I just need a good leader," then I'm sorry to say that she will most likely not improve anytime soon.

[jennyisdancing]

But when a follower keeps saying, "I don't need practice. I just need a good leader," then I'm sorry to say that she will most likely not improve anytime soon.

As a follower I hate it when ladies say that. We all need practice, no matter which role we do. Yes, it's true that with a really good leader, I can do some moves that I am not familiar with. But I won't know how to execute the moves 100% to make them look the best or feel the best.

[Ray Sison]

As a follower I hate it when ladies say that. We all need practice, no matter which role we do. Yes, it's true that with a really good leader, I can do some moves that I am not familiar with. But I won't know how to execute the moves 100% to make them look the best or feel the best.

Yes. And when my teacher occasionally leads me, to help me feel what it's like to be led well or badly, I feel something of what it is like to be a follower. And it makes me appeciate the skill of good female dancers...

[wiseman]

As a follower I hate it when ladies say that. We all need practice, no matter which role we do. Yes, it's true that with a really good leader, I can do some moves that I am not familiar with. But I won't know how to execute the moves 100% to make them look the best or feel the best.

Yeah, and it breaks my heart that my own mother is like this. Most of the women I dance with at socials and at lessons put a lot of effort into their dancing. And I think it's great that they work hard at it. We all have to. So, the amount of "I just need a good leader" type of women is rather small. So, it's sad that my mom happens to be one of the few women that are like that.

[fascination]

well...while I have always been very intense about my own practice, not everyone has the same goals...not everyone walks into a studio to be the best dancer that they can be...and not everyone has the courage to practice alone or even knows how to do so in a productive way...it doens't make them wrong...they simply have different goals...if she continues to feel frustrated with social leads, she will probably either stick to privates and do less social events or she will learn that she has some work to do...we can't make others be where we want them to be in their own journey...

[Ray Sison]

Yeah, and it breaks my heart that my own mother is like this. Most of the women I dance with at socials and at lessons put a lot of effort into their dancing. And I think it's great that they work hard at it. We all have to. So, the amount of "I just need a good leader" type of women is rather small. So, it's sad that my mom happens to be one of the few women that are like that.


But mom just wants to have fun. You obviously care about her, so if she is enjoying herself, she's fine...

[wiseman]

But mom just wants to have fun. You obviously care about her, so if she is enjoying herself, she's fine...

She only enjoys dancing with the instructors who are "good" leaders. Several others, she claimed that she hated the dance because the lead from several of the instructors were so poor. So, my mom mostly gets frustrated after a dance because it rarely turns out the way she wants it to.

[Ray Sison]

She only enjoys dancing with the instructors who are "good" leaders. Several others, she claimed that she hated the dance because the lead from several of the instructors were so poor. So, my mom mostly gets frustrated after a dance because it rarely turns out the way she wants it to.


Oh wow, that's too bad. I think it's cool that your mom is into dancing. It's great to see your parents or grandparents staying active...

So hats off to your mom, and she's lucky she has such a caring son...

[nucat78]

If I were cynical, I'd question whether her instructor is setting her up to dance only with him. Steady cash flow...

OTOH, I know at least two followers who refuse to dance with anybody but their studio owner and that is, according to them, because there are very few leads at that studio who are up to their skill level.

Botom line is that it's a shame your mom can't just enjoy herself at a social.

[danceronice]

But because her teacher keeps saying "good job," she feels there's no need to practice. She's like, "My teacher says I'm good and never said I needed practice. So why do I need to practice." So, she feels that all she needs is a good leader.

But the point is, if he said, "Your frame is weak, you need to practice foot speed, you aren't using the floor effectively, you have to stretch through your body more," etc., would your mother start practicing three hours a day or would she say "He must be a terrible teacher if I do everything wrong, I'm going to go to someone else?" With adult beginner skaters who really just wanted to get around public sessions or pond skating feeling confident and maybe be able to skate backwards or glide on one foot, if I get after them with power drills and edge work and such, they're not going to sign up for a second session. I have to get past that yeah, I want to pass USFS tests so I'm willing to drill moves in the field and spend twenty minutes working on back power pulls, but they're not.

Heck, I've been on the other side--I butted heads about training styles with a friend who's a Novice-level eventer, takes major lessons every week, her horse has a chiro, she plots out her year's campaign well in advance. I'm happy if my horse goes reasonably forward and jumps safely. If he's not stylish, I can live with that. I ride two or three times a week. I don't lesson. We have different goals--neither is right or wrong and our methods aren't right or wrong, they're just different.

I like positive reinforcement as much as the next person. I get wanting to hear the good and not the bad. Since I want to compete, I don't have the luxury. If I just wanted to go out and feel like a diva on the dance floor at socials, I might be okay with being like your mom and being content with that style of teaching.

[waltzgirl]

But the problem with wiseman's mom is that she isn't enjoying the results of her approach. What she's doing is like if you said, if only I had a better horse, I would be able to ride just like my friend (without doing anything else). She's not recognizing that her experience is the result of the choice she is making about how she chooses to dance.

[Ray Sison]

I'm more emotionally fragile than many people, so I have responded to being somewhat coddled. But I have a appreciated a balance of this with constructive criticism and being corrected when needed. People are different though, with different goals.

I've kept coming back to coaching as long as I never lost sight of my dancing as something I do for fun and fulfillment. And I too like positive reinforcement--and when I'm in positions of leadership it's my style as well, with velvet gloves...

[Ray Sison]

But the problem with wiseman's mom is that she isn't enjoying the results of her approach. What she's doing is like if you said, if only I had a better horse, I would be able to ride just like my friend (without doing anything else). She's not recognizing that her experience is the result of the choice she is making about how she chooses to dance.

Great point...

[pygmalion]

I don't think it's simple. And I don't think it's limited to male instructors. I've seen female instructors back lead a time or two, in my day. *grin*

*My opinion only* Unless you''re taking lessons from a competitive and/or high level coach, your instructor is possibly walking a very fine line -- between teaching you to dance and coddling your ego. In a lot of cases, they're trying to balance making you look good, feel good about yourself, and keep you coming back.

Can you imagine what that must be like, especially given that some people start dancing for emotional reasons, anyway. So now you have students who are (in some cases -- not all) seeking emotional fulfillment from their dance lessons, with (in some cases-- not all) fragile egos and big check books. *Sheesh* Can you say no win situation?

[Ray Sison]

Also points well taken. It is complex.

[wiseman]

But the point is, if he said, "Your frame is weak, you need to practice foot speed, you aren't using the floor effectively, you have to stretch through your body more," etc., would your mother start practicing three hours a day or would she say "He must be a terrible teacher if I do everything wrong, I'm going to go to someone else?"

It's working for me. My previous dance studio did nothing but praise me. After 4 months of going there, I learned the hard way at socials that my leading was awful. A couple of months ago, I switched to a much better studio where instructors praise less and correct more often. While I admit, it was annoying at first, it's helping me immensely. Now, I don't want to be taught any other way. It's not the most fun way to be taught, I admit, but you learn more effectively and faster that way.

[Ray Sison]

It's working for me. My previous dance studio did nothing but praise me. After 4 months of going there, I learned the hard way at socials that my leading was awful. A couple of months ago, I switched to a much better studio where instructors praise less and correct more often. While I admit, it was annoying at first, it helped me immensely. Now, I don't want to be taught any other way. It's not the most fun way to be taught, I admit, but you learn more effectively and faster that way.

Yeah, I do have one coach like this now, and I am seeing a lot of things in a different light...

[pygmalion]

Been there. Done something similar.

But what I've seen is that not everybody wants the challenge of that type of dance instruction. I have friends who still go to the exact same dance studio I started at ten (?) eleven (?) years ago and have jolly good fun, even though nobody makes demands on them or their quality of dancing.

What they want is different than what I want, and that's okay.

Just my $0.02. :cool:

[wooh]

And some people don't want to learn "more effectively" or "faster." They might say they do, but they want to be coddled.
Personally, I find that I need a bit of coddling. I respond better to critique if there's at least a bit of coddling. If I took a lesson with Larinda, I'd probably run out of the studio crying as soon as she hit me with one of her noodles.
Did I learn a lot from my last instructor? Yes. But I was miserable a lot of the time. I'm at a point in my life where if I'm going to put some work into something, I want to enjoy it. So I need a little coddling, even if it means I learn a bit slower. So my current instructor is so perfect for me, she's an expert at the sandwiching of tough critique in between positive encouragement. So I can learn at a decent pace, while still enjoying myself.

[suburbaknght]

She said she doesn't need to because so long as the man is a good leader, she could do anything on the dance floor.

I don't know what the pros on this site have to say about my mom, but I personally think with that attitude, she's headed down a very wrong path, IMHO.
To backtrack a bit, there are two issues at hand: what you consider problems with your mother's dancing and what she considers problems with her dancing.

Many dancers simply enjoy the process of taking lessons and have no desire to compete, perform, or even social dance. These dancers are fine with only dancing with one person (their instructor). If your mother is in that category, so long as she knows she's headed down that path, there is no problem.

On the other hand, if she wants to be an excellent dancer, to be popular at socials, or has aspirations to compete or perform, she needs to change her attitude. Here's how I'd respond:

Her: "So long as the man is a good leader, I can do anything on the dance floor."

Response: "That's true, but what happens when the dancer isn't a good leader? Now I don't want to tell you how to do your lessons, but you know that I care about you and want you to get the most out of your dancing that you can. If you tell me that you only want to dance with your instructor, then there's no problem; you've found what you need and I'm happy for you. On the other hand, if you want to be the kind of dancer you've always told me you admired, the woman who can dance with anyone and make him look good rather than rely on him making you look good, I'd encourage you to take some extra lessons to work on lead and follow. Now I know how intimidating it can be because I went through that same process myself, so I'd be happy to take those lessons with you so we can practice together."

[wiseman]

Many dancers simply enjoy the process of taking lessons and have no desire to compete, perform, or even social dance. These dancers are fine with only dancing with one person (their instructor). If your mother is in that category, so long as she knows she's headed down that path, there is no problem.

On the other hand, if she wants to be an excellent dancer, to be popular at socials, or has aspirations to compete or perform, she needs to change her attitude. Here's how I'd respond:

Her: "So long as the man is a good leader, I can do anything on the dance floor."

Response: "That's true, but what happens when the dancer isn't a good leader? Now I don't want to tell you how to do your lessons, but you know that I care about you and want you to get the most out of your dancing that you can. If you tell me that you only want to dance with your instructor, then there's no problem; you've found what you need and I'm happy for you. On the other hand, if you want to be the kind of dancer you've always told me you admired, the woman who can dance with anyone and make him look good rather than rely on him making you look good, I'd encourage you to take some extra lessons to work on lead and follow. Now I know how intimidating it can be because I went through that same process myself, so I'd be happy to take those lessons with you so we can practice together."

She's learning to dance so she can dance with my dad and be able to dance with the few men that ask her at occasional parties. She did mention the other day that she would like to ask her private instructor to perform with her one day because she claims she dances so well with him.

I think I see the issue here. From what my mom is telling me, she seems to do rather well when dancing with her private instructor. But when she dances with others, her dancing doesn't turn out so great. So she's probably thinking, "If I can dance with my own instructor, I must be a good dancer! If I can't dance with these others, it's obvious they're not doing their part correctly." I don't think she understands that each leader she dances with is different and doesn't necessarily mean they're bad.

[suburbaknght]

I think I see the issue here. From what my mom is telling me, she seems to do rather well when dancing with her private instructor. But when she dances with others, her dancing doesn't turn out so great. So she's probably thinking, "If I can dance with my own instructor, I must be a good dancer! If I can't dance with these others, it's obvious they're not doing their part correctly." I don't think she understands that each leader she dances with is different and doesn't necessarily mean they're bad.
I suspect you're right. It doesn't mean she's right but it's actually a very approachable viewpoint.

"I know you love dancing with [your instructor] but you can't expect Dad or the other dancers at the party to dance with you like a pro. Maybe in future lessons you could ask him to teach you to dance with other types of leaders so that you can dance with those other people."

[danceronice]

It's working for me. My previous dance studio did nothing but praise me. After 4 months of going there, I learned the hard way at socials that my leading was awful. A couple of months ago, I switched to a much better studio where instructors praise less and correct more often. While I admit, it was annoying at first, it's helping me immensely. Now, I don't want to be taught any other way. It's not the most fun way to be taught, I admit, but you learn more effectively and faster that way.

Okay, but THAT'S YOU. Not your mom. What you want and what she wants are totally different things.

And I don't know that, from the sound of it, she isn't enjoying it to some degree--she gets to feel like she's good and it's them, not her. You would need to to do what suburbaknight suggests, figure out what she actually wants and if she is sabotaging herself gently suggest where she might change things.

Walzgirl--it's not a matter of having a better horse, it's a question of goals. I could probably make my horse into an eventer, and I sure could get him running barrels faster than we are (what he actually seems inclined to do) if I wanted to get on the fast-track, 'science' method of schooling and training. But, btdt got the bad joints to prove it and I'm just not in a huge hurry to show again. Since I bought the horse and ride for my own enjoyment, I'm not going to kill myself, even if that's the 'serious' thing to do. (Bearing in mind, I'm a very good rider with twenty-some years experience. I am at a point I can get away with that without ruining a horse. Not something I would suggest for someone who knows nothing about them.) I'm doing the riding equivalent of social dancing.

[Ray Sison]

At any rate, wiseman, you bring up a lot of interesting issues since you've joined the forum. Thanks...

[nucat78]

I have friends who still go to the exact same dance studio I started at ten (?) eleven (?) years ago and have jolly good fun, even though nobody makes demands on them or their quality of dancing.

Uhhh, yeah. DP and I switched to a more comp-oriented studio while several of the ppl we started with have gone 100% Argentine. There are still some ppl at the old place who are quite content there though.

[fascination]

But the problem with wiseman's mom is that she isn't enjoying the results of her approach. What she's doing is like if you said, if only I had a better horse, I would be able to ride just like my friend (without doing anything else). She's not recognizing that her experience is the result of the choice she is making about how she chooses to dance.
correct...but it is still her responsibility to identify that and to do something or nothing about it...I mean hey, I don't get to dance with a lead as good as my pro ever anywhere else either......someday she will learn to deal with that...or be disappointed most of the time

[waltzgirl]

Walzgirl--it's not a matter of having a better horse, it's a question of goals. I could probably make my horse into an eventer, and I sure could get him running barrels faster than we are (what he actually seems inclined to do) if I wanted to get on the fast-track, 'science' method of schooling and training. But, btdt got the bad joints to prove it and I'm just not in a huge hurry to show again. Since I bought the horse and ride for my own enjoyment, I'm not going to kill myself, even if that's the 'serious' thing to do. (Bearing in mind, I'm a very good rider with twenty-some years experience. I am at a point I can get away with that without ruining a horse. Not something I would suggest for someone who knows nothing about them.) I'm doing the riding equivalent of social dancing.

That was my point! The difference between you and w's mom is that you understand that your current way of riding is the result of the approach you're choosing to take, and you're happy with both the choice and the results. She doesn't and isn't.

[fascination]

I am not sure that anyone understands how that is going to unfold at first...they experience the dis-satisfaction and they begin to probe how to fix it if they feel sufficiently frustrated

[fascination]

and it is an exceedingly rare day that a parent is going to view their child who is nearly equally new to the arena to be a sound advisor

[wiseman]

and it is an exceedingly rare day that a parent is going to view their child who is nearly equally new to the arena to be a sound advisor

Yeah, exactly. And also because my parents have been going for lessons longer than me....since I was a kid, in fact. But they've been going on and off all those years, which is why they aren't exactly professional dancers. Like they would go for a month or two and stop going for a year or two.....and with little to no practice. So, me (the son), who has only been going for lessons for 7 months consistently isn't expected to know a little thing or two. It's unbelievable to them. And I don't blame them. But those instructors she's dancing with have most likely been dancing much longer than she has. So, for her to criticize their lead and say she hates dancing with them, there's definitely an issue somewhere.

[wiseman]

At any rate, wiseman, you bring up a lot of interesting issues since you've joined the forum. Thanks...

lol, well I run into a lot of interesting situations. :)

And this question I really felt the need to ask because I'm not a follower, so I will never know how well these instructors lead....unless I start learning to follow, which I don't plan on doing anytime soon. :D

So, I was interested in hearing what the followers here had to say.

[Warren J. Dew]

Yeah, and it breaks my heart that my own mother is like this. Most of the women I dance with at socials and at lessons put a lot of effort into their dancing. And I think it's great that they work hard at it. We all have to. So, the amount of "I just need a good leader" type of women is rather small. So, it's sad that my mom happens to be one of the few women that are like that.
I don't know that the proportion of such women is all that small. They just don't show up at social dances because they won't have a good time dancing with other leaders, and they don't think they need the practice either.

With adult beginner skaters who really just wanted to get around public sessions or pond skating feeling confident and maybe be able to skate backwards or glide on one foot, if I get after them with power drills and edge work and such, they're not going to sign up for a second session.
While there's some validity to that, I think wiseman's mom is more like a skating student who has to hang on to his instructor, and when his instructor isn't there blames the ice for falling down. A good instructor will at least teach the student to skate without hanging on, rather than letting them hang on forever.

[wiseman]

I don't know that the proportion of such women is all that small. They just don't show up at social dances because they won't have a good time dancing with other leaders, and they don't think they need the practice either.

Good point!!

[danceronice]

That was my point! The difference between you and w's mom is that you understand that your current way of riding is the result of the approach you're choosing to take, and you're happy with both the choice and the results. She doesn't and isn't.

Well, my point with mentioning that was just in the case of horses, my friend's worry was valid--nothing terrible will happen if someone never learns to dance properly, whereas if I screw up the horse, best-case scenario he has to be sold to a pro who can fix it, worst-case he ends up on a French dinner plate via a Canadian slaughterhouse (if he's fortunate and doesn't get shipped to Mexico.) I have a basis for not doing that, plus lucked into a horse with a brain worth his weight in gold--if I wanted to sell I'd have ten offers tomorrow. Likewise, I'm a bit of a martinet teaching riding but not skating because short of a freak accident, you're unlikely to die learning skating or dance, while in riding you can die just going to catch them in the pasture. You may or may not get hurt learning to social dance, while if you take up riding in any seriousness, you will be hurt and the question will just be how severely. I'm lucky, I'm not dead or permanently maimed after as long as I've been doing it (back back, torn ligaments, possibly some hairline fractures, nothing serious). With dancing, really, nothing HORRIBLE will happen if you just putz around.

And from the sound of it, wiseman's mom has been doing this for a really long time. She's NOT as much a newbie as he is, and I think fasc makes a really good point, too--it's hard for some, maybe even most, parents, to listen to their kid. Even when said kid has a point.