what do you do when leader feels the music differently?

[borikensalsero]

Ladies, what do you do/think, when the leader totally feels the music very different than you do?

Is it a lost case? how do you enjoy the song if it happens to be your favorite and you get "stuck" with someone who just doesn't feel it anything like you do?

[vey]

Great topic Boriken! It's nice to know that leaders are pondering about this issues.

I would say that if I am dancing with a struggling beginner, I keep quet, he needs time and experience to get to the point where we can feel music together.

If I'm dancing with someone of my level (which is still a beginner but with some experience) or higher and I have not danced with this person before or danced only once or twice, I also keep quet and let them do "their thing", hoping that may be little by little we'll get there together.

If I'm dancing with one of my regular partners and "THE SONG" is playing and the guy is on a different page, FORGET IT, I start doing ceaseless hand, body and foot styling (sometimes all three similtaneoiusly :shock: :oops: :lol: ), so poor thing is forced to let me go into shines -that way I can at least express myself the way I feel the music....

[Sagitta]

Isn't a follow just supposed to follow? :?

[MacMoto]

Isn't a follow just supposed to follow? :?
Yes, and that means this you can have a frustrating dance in this sort of situation.

With leaders I have danced before, I have a reasonable idea of how they dance, so if a favourite song comes on, I go look for leaders who can give me the sort of dance I want for the song. Sometimes someone asks me before I have a chance to grab the leader I want, in which case I just go with the flow.

[ShyDancer]

Isn't a follow just supposed to follow? :?

Yup. And I do, I hate leading, or back-leading.

If I find myself in a situation where my lead isnt in tune with the music, I usually say something like "oh sorry I lost it there for a second and then count us in out loud, 8 times out of 10 it works! Otherwise I try to just ignore the music and follow him only, sure its not as enjoyable as moving with the music, but hey! Anything for a dance :wink:

[squirrel]

Well... sometimes it happens that you hear the music differently...

If I'm dancing with one of the regulars, I just try to enjoy it as much as possible and throw in some shines and styling when I get the chance...

If the guy is not used to dancing with me, it depends:
- if he's my student I challenge him by using footwork :) and styling :shock:
- if he is not among my students, I try to dance at his level :)

If I completely hate dancing with him, I refuze next time :oops: :oops:

[Lita_rulez]

Isn't a follow just supposed to follow? :?

Of course they are supposed to follow.

But hey, they are girls, you expected them to actualy make up theire mind to follow you the whole song ? http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy05.gif


http://yelims.free.fr/Pasdaccord/NonNon03.gifOf course they are going to try and get away.

But it does not matter.http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy04.gif


Since we are both the leader and the strong one http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy07.gif, if we do not want her to get away, we can allways prevent her from getting awayhttp://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy-granny01.gif


But we are also very smooth, so we can do so in such a way that she actually believes she wanted to stay (ie : keep holding her long enough so that she has time to change her mind again (say... 45 seconds ?) )



OK, seriously now...

The problem does not only apply to women ! We leaders also have favourit songs, even sacred songs, that you definitly do NOT want to spoil.

I often find my self sitting those songs through for lack of THE partner I wanted. And I will actually say "no" (very nicely, don't get me wrong, I'll usually promess to invite the girl afterwords, and will do so) to the girls that will come to me asking me to dance.

Let's take for instance "Telephone - Los Juvenes del Barrio"
The first time ever I heard it, I had just invited this beautifull girl I really like, who also happens to be a good dancer. Well I ended up falling in love with her during the song.

And for the next 3 or 4 weeks, every time this song would play, I would be dancing with a good dancer (don't ask me why, it just turned out this way) and ended up falling in love during the song.
The effect was just magical, and the connection with the dancer wonderfull.

And I'm not just saying this, it was sensed from other people looking two. One night, a friend who is not all that much into salsa came to the club for a drink. This song happened to play, and one of the dancers I love was there. We looked at each other, and joined on the dancefloor. I, of course, had a wonderfull time. At the end of the song, I went back to my friend, she looked at me and said :
"Are you guys together ? I mean, is she your girlfriend ? No ?? There was so much sensuality between you two, I would have sworn you guys were in love"
(probably one of the best compliments someone hase ever thrown my way up to this day)


Now after such a run with this song, how could I dare try and dance it with someone I do not know, or know there won't be such a magical connection during the song ? No way. I'd rather sit it out and look at the great expressiv dancers on the floor, or even close my eyes and just let the music carry me back to those dances.

OK, this happened a while ago, and I have listened to that song so much, that it has lost some of its' magic on me. I still love it, but I will now dance it with almost anyone I know (still a litle tuchy about the girls I have never danced with) but once in a while, there comes a song that has that "special meaning" for you and you absolutely do not want to ruin.

The one I actualy keep for myself nowadays is "Lady - Orquestra la Palabra".

I had the chance to dance to this song for the first time with one of the best dancer/performer I know.

I obviously had a blast, what with the great song and the great dancer, but she looked like she really enjoyed herself during the song smiling and playing with me... Really had that Titanic moment there (remember? I'm the king of the world !)

Best part is, a friend of mine who often takes pictures during social was there that night, trying out his new camera. He took a few pictures of us, 2 of wich are the best pictures ever taken of me dancing, and I do feel like the connection is apparent on those pics.
Furthermore, while playing with the camera, he recorded a small video, and for the first time, seeing myself dance didn't fill me with embarassment, a firm desire to kill myself out of shame, and a vow never to dance in public again. I actually liked what I was looking at !

So basically, this song now is a big "no no" for me. Sit this one through, go grab a drink or something, but no dancing... for a while ;)

[MacMoto]

First, (belated) welcome to DF, Lita_rulez. :D

Now after such a run with this song, how could I dare try and dance it with someone I do not know, or know there won't be such a magical connection during the song ? No way. I'd rather sit it out and look at the great expressiv dancers on the floor, or even close my eyes and just let the music carry me back to those dances.

You know, on one hand I know exactly what you mean -- when you have a song you associate with a very special dance with a favourite partner, you do feel reluctant to spoil that memory by having a bad dance to the same song. I have the same tendency. On the other hand, however, I feel that it will ultimately limit your chance of experiencing more of those special dance moments.

Dancing with someone you don't know is always about chance. You may end up with an unsatisfactory dance, or you may find a gem, even your dream dance partner... The thing is, you won't know until you dance. Okay, you may not have the same sort of dance with the new person, but you never know, you may actually like the way in which s/he dances to that song even though it's different from that special dance. I do have favourite songs I prefer to dance with favourite leaders, but I don't want to regard any song as "sacred". It's not the song that's special, it's the dance. The person who made that song special for you can probably give you a great dance experience with many other songs. And there are many dancers out there who may also be able to give you special dance memories if only you give them a chance. Your life is enriched with new discoveries when you are open to the unknown. I think dance is the same.

Best part is, a friend of mine who often takes pictures during social was there that night, trying out his new camera. He took a few pictures of us, 2 of wich are the best pictures ever taken of me dancing, and I do feel like the connection is apparent on those pics.
Post those pics, please -- share them with us! :D

[Lita_rulez]

First, (belated) welcome to DF, Lita_rulez. :D

:D

You know, on one hand I know exactly what you mean -- when you have a song you associate with a very special dance with a favourite partner, you do feel reluctant to spoil that memory by having a bad dance to the same song. I have the same tendency. On the other hand, however, I feel that it will ultimately limit your chance of experiencing more of those special dance moments.

Yup.

Agry with you totally. Keeping a song "sacred" might be my loss more than anyone elses, I am not selfcentered enough to believe otherwise.
But as much as I love discovering new partners, and I know that only by dancing with different people might I meet that "dream partner", I do believe that there are plenty of songs during one night, and to forgo one is not that much of a drop in my chances of meeting new partners.

After all, I do not danse all the songs of one evening. Sitting this one out or another one does not throw the scale out of this world.

And as I said, the magic wears off in time. Not the actual souvenir of the dance, and what you experienced (or at least, I have not been dancing long enough for that to happen) but that feeling that you don't want to spoil the song goes away.

So in my books, all that adds up to taking chances with a new partner on a diffrent song, while I have a special one in my heart.

(now I'm not saying, that should I discover a new partner on the song playing just before my special one comes along, and it is a magical moment, I'm not gona hold on to her either, don't get me wrong ;) )




Best part is, a friend of mine who often takes pictures during social was there that night, trying out his new camera. He took a few pictures of us, 2 of wich are the best pictures ever taken of me dancing, and I do feel like the connection is apparent on those pics.
Post those pics, please -- share them with us! :D

Well, I don't want to look like I'm showing off with a trophy of some kind (look, I have danced with so & so ! ) and I do not know what performers/teachers think about having their pics posted out in this forum... But since the pics are up on a friends site, I guess I might post them for a while. (besides, I'd really like to know if it also looks to you like she is enjoying this dance as much as I am, or if it's just wishfull thinking on my part)
I'll edit my post to just show a link later on.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xavier.gillot/Photos/La%20Coupole%2013-04-04/slides/IMG_5841.JPG

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xavier.gillot/Photos/La%20Coupole%2013-04-04/slides/IMG_5842.JPG

[MacMoto]

Wow, thanks for the photos! :D :D Yes, indeed she's an amazing dancer, and I can see you two are having a blast!
:banana: :banana: :banana:

[squirrel]

Is that Susana Montero...? Kinda looks like her...

[Lita_rulez]

Is that Susana Montero...? Kinda looks like her...

Yes, it is...

Not enough words in my vocabulary to say all the good I think of her, as a dancer, a teacher, a performer and a person.

[squirrel]

she's my favourite Salsera! I've never met her (hope to have the opportunity some day) but I saw some tapes of hers and God she's good!!! She is soooooooooo incredibly smooth and sexi!

I wish I danced like her! :cry: :cry: :cry:

[squirrel]

Lita... maybe we met in Paris... :)

I went there at the end of April, I think... :) went twice to La Pachanga :) I suppose you already know the club...

[Lita_rulez]

she's my favourite Salsera! I've never met her (hope to have the opportunity some day) but I saw some tapes of hers and God she's good!!! She is soooooooooo incredibly smooth and sexi!

She definitly in my top five salseras as well !! She is a great performer, a great teacher, a wonderfull dancer, but on top of that, she is one of the nicest person I have met since I started dancing.

I mean, she is such an amazing dancer, not many social dancer can claim to look as good as she does when she dances. Not many can claim to be as enjoyable to lead. Not many can claim to connect as well with their dancer. Not many can claim to have such a sens of musicality. And very few can claim to combine all of that.

And yet, so many have an attitude that, had you never seen either dance, would leed you to believe that the social dancers are performers that have better things to do with theire valuable time than dance with (let alone talk to a) total stranger, and that Susana is just a regular from the local club, that is there to have a good time, and share the emotions of dancing with others.

I was really blown away by all of that when we met in Paris for the first time, and I had the occasion to meet her again a few times (in Paris, as they came with Leon Rose to perform, and in L.A. during the West Coast Congress) and my opinion only got stronger : wonderfull person, wonderfull dancer...

(and believe me, having her say at the end of the dance "thank you, it was a wonderfull dance" is as close as you (well, I, anyways) can get from heaven on a dance floor... it actually took me a week to climb down cloud n°9 :wink: )


Lita... maybe we met in Paris... :)

I went there at the end of April, I think... :) went twice to La Pachanga :) I suppose you already know the club...

Yes, I do know the club, since basically that is where I have learned how to dance !

I used to be dancing there five nights a week but had to slow it down a bit (finances were getting tight with congresses comming up, and well, the body only can take so many "3 hour nights" before it gives...)

I am presently dancing there every monday night, and at least every other tuesday because the tuesday DJ is amongst my favourit (and one of the best on the french salsa scene, let's face it 8) ). After that, it depends on how tired I am and at what time my first meeting is scheduled on the next morning.

What nights did you come ?

[squirrel]

I went Friday and Saturday... maybe you weren't there...

This is how I met Alain (the instructor there) and some other regulars...

But next time I'm coming (probably next year), I'll contact you so that I have a fellow DFer accompanying me :)

[borikensalsero]

Isn't a follow just supposed to follow? :?

Indeed, however it doesn't mean slavery, nor emprisoment...

Emotions between two people are "best" enjoyed when they are shared. Salsa being an emotional dance leads to both parties inputs.... Which means that just as much as the leader is putting in it, the follow should put just as much. It is a 50/50 thing...

What good is it as a leader to Romance the diamonds out of carbon, if the all the girl can do is stare at you with a blank face as if the diamonds were cobble stone?

There are many ways to allow the input of a woman in a dance. We as leaders should only point direction, the follow can then feel that direction and work their magic with it. Put the emotion they feel into the dance! We can't have the guy feel all the emotion, then have the girl look like she is bouncing tennis balls off the wall, except that they splat and fall down to the ground...

No dance can every be complete if there isn't more than a physical lead and follow, there has to be, like in a mariage, the emotional (be it what it might be) reciprocal connection between both dancers. She has fun, he has fun, she feels love, he feels love, she feels flirty, he feels flirty, she looks passionate, he looks passionate...

It is a take and give relationship with equal oportunity for both, just because the leader is in control of direction, shouldn't mean, that we are back in the 50s telling a woman that she must be submissive to a man regardless of his actions, or her feelings towards what is going on... At least so I think....

When a woman allows herself to be taken, then you know you are truly leading!

[Lita_rulez]

I went Friday and Saturday... maybe you weren't there...

This is how I met Alain (the instructor there) and some other regulars...

But next time I'm coming (probably next year), I'll contact you so that I have a fellow DFer accompanying me :)

Yep, I can confirm, I was not there.
When I was going five times a week, the two days I did not go were friday and saturday :?
The problem (to me) beeing that on those days, people that usualy do not dance salsa, and can't dance (I usually call them "tourists") come over and croud the place.
The music is adapted for that particular type of clients (less salsa, more latin/pop) and they have no respect for dancers : they will come on the dance floor with drinks and cigarettes, they will stand there talking once the song is over...
This is the drawback of beeing a popular and much spoken of club : people that are not into salsa hear about it, and since "salsa" is "a la mode" they will come to the places they have heard about. That is why I would usualy flee the venue came the week end (friday and saturday nights. Sunday was great cause usually very few dancers, and basicaly, only eagre dancer to be out on a sunday night ;) )

I remember one particular night, when the club I was at was closing at 2:30. I thought "hell, it will take me haf an hour to get there and park, by that time there ought to be a lot less tourists, I still feel like dancing, let's go !"
My mistake. 3 in the morning it was still silled with tourists, no way I could have enough space on the dance floor for a decent CBL (let alone anything more than like... single turns ? yeah...) But why complain, they played 2 salsa and then regatton, latin/pop, merenge, bachata...
Well, the night was not completely lost either, I had my share of bachata for the week 8)


I have been talled lately by some regulars that this trend has changed, however, and that friday has become a very enjoyable night for slasa dancers, and that saturday is getting there as well. So I hope you have enjoyed yourself there, and, well, just know that whatever fun you had on a friday or saturday, monday ought to be (at least) 2 or 3 times better !!!

[tj]

I often find my self sitting those songs through for lack of THE partner I wanted. And I will actually say "no" (very nicely, don't get me wrong, I'll usually promess to invite the girl afterwords, and will do so) to the girls that will come to me asking me to dance.

(snip)

So basically, this song now is a big "no no" for me. Sit this one through, go grab a drink or something, but no dancing... for a while ;)

Welcome to DF, Lita.

Ok, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. :twisted:

With the large numbers of people complaining about elitism/snobbishness in the scene, you do realize that you're contributing to the problem, right? (You're likely to make her think she was wearing the wrong shirt! Lol!) (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3803&start=100)

[SDsalsaguy]

With the large numbers of people complaining about elitism/snobbishness in the scene, you do realize that you're contributing to the problem, right? (You're likely to make her think she was wearing the wrong shirt! Lol!)
I don't think this is true. It seemed like he'll politely decline dancing to that song, and then will look them up later for a different song. Sure there are some people who may get offended, but I rerally don't think that this type of action is what undergirds the elitism/snobiness that seems to run so rampant in the salsa scene. My $0.02...

[tj]

With the large numbers of people complaining about elitism/snobbishness in the scene, you do realize that you're contributing to the problem, right? (You're likely to make her think she was wearing the wrong shirt! Lol!)
I don't think this is true. It seemed like he'll politely decline dancing to that song, and then will look them up later for a different song. Sure there are some people who may get offended, but I rerally don't think that this type of action is what undergirds the elitism/snobiness that seems to run so rampant in the salsa scene. My $0.02...

Perhaps, but the act of turning her down could be the same as what he was experiencing at the LA Congress. Maybe she didn't like the song, or maybe that particular song was "special" to her. Meanwhile, he'll think it's because he's not dressed properly.

[Lita_rulez]

Welcome to DF, Lita.

Ok, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. :twisted:

With the large numbers of people complaining about elitism/snobbishness in the scene, you do realize that you're contributing to the problem, right? (You're likely to make her think she was wearing the wrong shirt! Lol!) (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3803&start=100)

Well, first of all, no 8)

OK, I'll get more specific ;)

- I am definitly not a good enough danser for anyone to believe that my refusing to dance with someone is going to be interpreted as snobbish. You need to have a certain "aura" for that to happen.

- There is a big diffrence in my eyes between "no" and "I am sorry, but I'd rather sit this one out, I have been dancing for a while now and I am a bit tired. Will you grant me the next song though ?"

- A snobbish response by essence is not only a "no" its a "no" that does not open any possibility for an eventual yes. And might even be followed by a "yes" to the guy (or girl) next to you...

- Not to forget : I did not jump to the shirt conclusion bymyself, trying to figure out what I did wrong to get so many "no". I just stated to a friend that I had not gotten so many "no" for a while now, and was puzzled by it. She pointed out to me that the way I was dressed might very well be part of the problem. (you can see on the pics however, it's not a problem for every one ;) )


With that said, although I do believe in dancing with anyone (I trully think you can learn something by dancing with a pro as well as dancing with a beginner) I do not believe in dancing with anyone anytime THEY choose to.

Couple dancing is a social activity, there needs to be an exchange for it to be pleasant to both partners. If one of the two does not feel like dancing, what is the point in doing it anyway ? As much as "no means no" for a woman, a guy should be able to refuse a dance without being pointed out as "snobbish".

What I resent on the scene (now, remember I am new to all this, be it either the salsa scene or social dancing as a whole. I had never danced anything in my whole life 2 years ago, and I have no ideas of what should and what should not be done before someone points it out to me*) is the systematic refusal certain people give without even a glance when they know it is not "one of their kind"

This is true snobbisme to me.


*by that, I mean that for instance up untill a few months ago, I did not know that dancing with the same partner for 2 dances in a row was considered a big amount of dance time. 3 times in a row is considred hugging the dancer, preventing others from dancing with her (rude) and you probably have something else in mind than just dancing.
Well that really puzzled me cause I used to go for 5 to 8 dances in a row with some partners, and the thought had never crossed my mind... I do not want to know what kind of reputation I must have had at the time :twisted:

[peachexploration]

No dance can every be complete if there isn't more than a physical lead and follow, there has to be, like in a mariage, the emotional (be it what it might be) reciprocal connection between both dancers. She has fun, he has fun, she feels love, he feels love, she feels flirty, he feels flirty, she looks passionate, he looks passionate...


Boriken, this says it all. I think alot of the time, we mainly caught up in the roles and forget to dance. And more importantly, forget to enjoy/experience the dance. This is the one thing that frustrates me the most.

So what do I do when the leader feels the music differently? I slow way down (or speed/sharpen up) and try to connect to where he is and adjust. This is not always easy or always negative because there could be so many things happening at once. Different beat, different style, etc. One of the best dances I've ever had was with a guy who was just beginning salsa one week. His moves were smooth and mine were sharp because of the music. I had to make the adjustment and slow way down to connect to where he was. It was one of the most romatic dances I've ever had. :D

[mellody43]

I pray. LOL! Just kidding.

I second a lot of what Vey said.

If someone is a beginner and tells me so -- doing what I so often did (apologizing in advance for a lack of skills/moves) -- I will just go with what he does and toss in an occasional "tip" now and again. Every guy I've done that with has really appreciated it -- it's really the approach you take -- I've had leads try and give me tips and I rather resented it because of the tone they took about it -- but other leads have been wonderful on-the-spot teachers. Anyway.

Someone who really feels the music differently than I do -- mainly a rhythmic issue (as in -- maybe he has none! d'oh!) -- I try to follow HIS rhythm even though it's very hard to me to dance 'against' the music. I find that this is often not a correctable problem for leads, and even though I may try to slow him down with a bit of resistance, or go into open breaks to do my own thing, I may be hesitant to dance with him in the future. :(

[borikensalsero]

No dance can every be complete if there isn't more than a physical lead and follow, there has to be, like in a mariage, the emotional (be it what it might be) reciprocal connection between both dancers. She has fun, he has fun, she feels love, he feels love, she feels flirty, he feels flirty, she looks passionate, he looks passionate...


Boriken, this says it all. I think alot of the time, we mainly caught up in the roles and forget to dance. And more importantly, forget to enjoy/experience the dance. This is the one thing that frustrates me the most.

So what do I do when the leader feels the music differently? I slow way down (or speed/sharpen up) and try to connect to where he is and adjust. This is not always easy or always negative because there could be so many things happening at once. Different beat, different style, etc. One of the best dances I've ever had was with a guy who was just beginning salsa one week. His moves were smooth and mine were sharp because of the music. I had to make the adjustment and slow way down to connect to where he was. It was one of the most romatic dances I've ever had. :D

The funniest part "mutual" dancing is that if we ask around about our best dance ever, it seems that those who choose, even the most of experienced dancers will pick that ONE dance that was emotionally charged. The one we never forget, the one that impacted not only our dancing but our emotions, the one that will always measure how deep into a song we got, or didn't. The dancers who have never been there will always talk about how flawless the dance was in term of technique. To get there all there need by that mutual emotional connection....

[borikensalsero]

Dancing with someone you don't know is always about chance. You may end up with an unsatisfactory dance, or you may find a gem, even your dream dance partner...

This happened to me not so long ago, and it opened my eyes to a whole new way of thinking.

This totally hot song came on, I don't remember which, for all I remember was being somewhere else with the girl. I just know that it was one of my many favorite songs.

I looked around, and looked around, I huffed and puffed chasing for one of the girls I love to dance with. There wasn't one girl available except this one lady, who I never really liked her style. But said, screw it, I'm dancing it with her!!

Boy, my mind was blown away, the reason her style was so screwed up, was because of the leads she chose to dance with. They prohibited her from expressing the music, the emotions she felt within, she was unbelievable at expressing the dance. I knew from the time I pick up my head to start the song and looked into her eyes, that we were there together, as one, for one another, feeling, thinking, seeing, the same thing. As Lita says, I fell in love there, (with the song that is and that one dance), we connected!!!

She danced like a leaf being carried by the wind. Smooth, emotionaly charged, care free, it was an angel of a dance! I couldn't believe how I had prejudge her on how far she would take the dance without first dancing with her. All my views about her dancing were from watching, but when I got a chance to dance with her, I haven't danced with many who let go as she did.

Now, when I sit and watch her dance with lead after lead, I become saddened at how they don't free her soul. I can see it on her face, she wants to go, but she isn't allowed, she tries to express her innerself, but an unsuspecting leader forbids her. She smiles, but rolls her eyes, and I, knowing that once again, the leader is the one to fault, not for not being a gentleman with the lead, but because a true gentleman, too worries about her feelings! Boy I love dancing with her!

The ecstacy of seeing a bird fly free, I can see it caged, I can feed it stroke it, caress it while in my possesion, but when I see it fly free, and gaze at me with the smile of the soul, it makes my heart swell... that is the hope I wish to pass to leaders and make followers feel...

[salsachinita]

Boriken.......... :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: !

[borikensalsero]

Boriken.......... :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: !

:oops: :oops: :oops: Thank you SalsaChinita!!

[salsachinita]

Ladies, what do you do/think, when the leader totally feels the music very different than you do?

Is it a lost case? how do you enjoy the song if it happens to be your favorite and you get "stuck" with someone who just doesn't feel it anything like you do?

At first I interpreted this as a timing difference.......but now I think it's a feeling issue :? .

Timing......while I don't believe in followers leading moves, I do my bit to influence the timing if the leader seems to be struggling. All of my hand-picked newbies have acuired a greater sense of timing/musicality over time. One of them is now teaching.........I'm sooooooo proud.

Feeling......very little you can do. You can't show people how to feel. So I look for my favourites when those songs get played.

[Genesius Redux]

Ladies, what do you do/think, when the leader totally feels the music very different than you do?

Is it a lost case? how do you enjoy the song if it happens to be your favorite and you get "stuck" with someone who just doesn't feel it anything like you do?

At first I interpreted this as a timing difference.......but now I think it's a feeling issue :? .

Timing......while I don't believe in followers leading moves, I do my bit to influence the timing if the leader seems to be struggling. All of my hand-picked newbies have acuired a greater sense of timing/musicality over time. One of them is now teaching.........I'm sooooooo proud.

Feeling......very little you can do. You can't show people how to feel. So I look for my favourites when those songs get played.

8) Exactly. And thank you, SC, for anticipating my typical cranky "let's define our terms" post and laying it out so simply and elegantly.

I had essentially the same questions about this thread. What do you do when your leader "feels the music differently"? That's a very nice way of putting it when you're talking about timing and musicality, where there are simple rights and wrongs. Either he's on the beat or he's not. I have some friends who may very well benefit from dancing with you, SC.

If it's about interpretation and styling--yeah, I agree, I don't see what the follower can do. I mean, without being explicitly rude. :wink:

[borikensalsero]

Yeap, I should have been more specific about what I meant. However, a key point to keep in mind, is that in salsa, feeling the music has nothing to do with musicality, nor steps, nor beat, it has to do about feeling the music with the heart. wayne gorbea has a song (sabor sabor) which is has parts in english. It is what salsa is all about. Feeling...

love the music guys that is what salsa is all about, it isn't about the dance, it isn't about the girls, it isn't about knowledge. It is about the feelings that make your heart pound as if lying naked for the first time next to your first love. It is feeling the pain a borken heart feels from the separation of love, when we wave good night for the evening to the last DJ spin. It is the feet itching incontrolably becaue they haven't felt the beats of mambo in 2 days. It is putting yourself second because it asks you to sooth yourself within it on this night. It is the first thing you run to when you are happy, the first when you are sad, the first when you need, the last you think of when your eyes close for the night. It is about love, it isn't about musicality, steps, patterns, spins, it is about a love whose beat causes your heart to pound harder than the stomps of a bull. It is about a love that a mother feels for her child, it is about the love that you give your life for!

Learn the teachiques of mambo, but never ever forget that you are here not because you can dance, but because you LOVE! because your love for what you are made feel hurts your heart so much that know you can't ever be this in love again!

Just love guys, love will carry your salsa world where it needs to go, nothing can replace it, you will be the best because you love!

[love2swing]

The funniest part "mutual" dancing is that if we ask around about our best dance ever, it seems that those who choose, even the most of experienced dancers will pick that ONE dance that was emotionally charged. The one we never forget, the one that impacted not only our dancing but our emotions, the one that will always measure how deep into a song we got, or didn't. The dancers who have never been there will always talk about how flawless the dance was in term of technique. To get there all there need by that mutual emotional connection....

Exactly. I'm still quite a beginner, but on Tuesday night I danced a rumba that absolutely blew me, and my lead I'm also guessing, away. I'm sure neither of us executed it perfectly, and he is much more of an advanced dancer than I am, but I could just tell it was great because I could feel the connection we had with each other and the music. In fact, when the music stopped and we came back to earth there were several people just watching us. It was the best feeling I've ever had-- while dancing of course! The bad part about this is that my lead wasn't my fiance! Oh well. He also has taken up dancing, so I think he understands. I'm so glad somebody mentioned this-- I have been longing to tell this to someone, and I have a feeling most non-dancers just wouldn't get it.

[borikensalsero]

The funniest part "mutual" dancing is that if we ask around about our best dance ever, it seems that those who choose, even the most of experienced dancers will pick that ONE dance that was emotionally charged. The one we never forget, the one that impacted not only our dancing but our emotions, the one that will always measure how deep into a song we got, or didn't. The dancers who have never been there will always talk about how flawless the dance was in term of technique. To get there all there need by that mutual emotional connection....

Exactly. I'm still quite a beginner, but on Tuesday night I danced a rumba that absolutely blew me, and my lead I'm also guessing, away. I'm sure neither of us executed it perfectly, and he is much more of an advanced dancer than I am, but I could just tell it was great because I could feel the connection we had with each other and the music. In fact, when the music stopped and we came back to earth there were several people just watching us. It was the best feeling I've ever had-- while dancing of course! The bad part about this is that my lead wasn't my fiance! Oh well. He also has taken up dancing, so I think he understands. I'm so glad somebody mentioned this-- I have been longing to tell this to someone, and I have a feeling most non-dancers just wouldn't get it.

simply beautiful love2swing, simply beautiful!!! Being caressed by the clouds while on earth is an incomparable feeling, one that swells my heart to hear you say, you've felt it!! I wish you a second, this time I hope your fiance can join you as well!!

[love2swing]

The funniest part "mutual" dancing is that if we ask around about our best dance ever, it seems that those who choose, even the most of experienced dancers will pick that ONE dance that was emotionally charged. The one we never forget, the one that impacted not only our dancing but our emotions, the one that will always measure how deep into a song we got, or didn't. The dancers who have never been there will always talk about how flawless the dance was in term of technique. To get there all there need by that mutual emotional connection....

Exactly. I'm still quite a beginner, but on Tuesday night I danced a rumba that absolutely blew me, and my lead I'm also guessing, away. I'm sure neither of us executed it perfectly, and he is much more of an advanced dancer than I am, but I could just tell it was great because I could feel the connection we had with each other and the music. In fact, when the music stopped and we came back to earth there were several people just watching us. It was the best feeling I've ever had-- while dancing of course! The bad part about this is that my lead wasn't my fiance! Oh well. He also has taken up dancing, so I think he understands. I'm so glad somebody mentioned this-- I have been longing to tell this to someone, and I have a feeling most non-dancers just wouldn't get it.

simply beautiful love2swing, simply beautiful!!! Being caressed by the clouds while on earth is an incomparable feeling, one that swells my heart to hear you say, you've felt it!! I wish you a second, this time I hope your fiance can join you as well!!

Thank you! I feel kinda sheepish because I forget I was in the salsa forum when I posted this! I hope nobody minds-- I figure every dancer loves a dance story. :D

[salsachinita]

I figure every dancer loves a dance story. :D

We do indeed!

[Kali Ma]

Wow, what an interesting question!

While I'm very much aware of the fact that my responsibility as a follower lies, mainly, in following, it is incredibly difficult sometimes to stick with it when the leader has a problem with timing... What I've noticed is that when dancing with a beginning lead, I can give him little hints about his timing (for example, if he's running ahead of the beats of the song, I can just slow down my steps a bit --he usually takes the bait); I've gotten grateful looks and thanks from many without ever having to resort to saying anything specific or preceivedly derogatory about someone's timing (smiling alot helps!). "Advanced" dancers with whom I've danced (note the quotations) haven't responded to this sort of gentle correction at all, even if they are pulling you off balance because (for example) you're not being allowed the necessary time to set up for spins. I know, I know --who's to say I should be trying to correct anyone's timing? I feel, though, that any time someone has a problem in a specific area, one is not doing him a disservice in trying to help him, as long as it's not done in a condescending manner (I'm grateful for every bit of well-meant, constructive guidance/help I've received in my brief period of dancing salsa). When I notice that the lead is not responsive to that sort of hinting, then I just relax and go with it...after all, it's just one dance among many, and I'd rather just enjoy what's there (a gentle lead, perhaps, eye-contact, smiles) than regret what's not. The last thing I want is to be in a struggle with someone whilst dancing with him.

Where style is concerned, I always attempt to match the style of the person with whom I'm dancing...I try to match my body movement to his, try to catch the mood of every wiggle and gesture. I know it goes against the conventional wisdom that states that it's the man's job to make the woman look good, but I feel that I also have that responsibility to the leader...I feel that if he's getting contiually knocked back for dances after having danced with me, I haven't done my part of the deal properly... I also want him to so enjoy having danced with me that he leaves the floor with the feeling that we've just had the best possible sort of communication with one another.

Hmm, not sure I can say what I want to say without going on for PAGES, so I'll quit here... :)

[Danish Guy]

Wellcome to the forum Kali Ma :D

(I'm grateful for every bit of well-meant, constructive guidance/help I've received in my brief period of dancing salsa)

Yeah, me too.
And I think it gives allot to grow on,
to become a better dancer.

[Sagitta]

Welcome to df Kali Mai!! I so like what you say. Keep on saying what you do. I agree that both people dancing have some sort of responsibility to do their best to make sure the other has a good time. Sometimes if you are an advanced follower with a beginner leader it may seem that you are doing a lot of helping, but that's the way it goes.

[Kali Ma]

Thank you both, Danish Guy and Sagitta! It's lovely to be here!

I had an experience yesterday evening that was a good illustration of what I mentioned before in this thread. A man asked me to dance, apologizing as he did so for being a beginner, and not as "good" as the partner with whom I'd just danced. We started dancing, and while his basic was fine, he had difficulties with timing while leading turns; he was leading them a beat or two too soon (and tensing up well beforehand), so when he raised my arm to allow for the turn, I just did a really slow rotation, so that when I'd finished we were back on beat. After I'd done this a couple times, his face broke out in this HUGE grin, and he started nodding at me, going "yeah, yeah!". He told me he'd been dancing for three months, and it seemed that no one had ever tried to help him with that specific difficulty until yesterday. His leading on the turns was notably improved afterwards (not perfect, but what is? :) ), and he seemed to be enjoying himself more (he certainly looked a lot less worried!). I'm really lucky that he was so receptive to my hint; it's so much more pleasant to dance with someone who isn't stressing out with the anticipation of things going all wonky...

[salsamale]

... Now, when I sit and watch her dance with lead after lead, I become saddened at how they don't free her soul. I can see it on her face, she wants to go, but she isn't allowed, she tries to express her innerself, but an unsuspecting leader forbids her. She smiles, but rolls her eyes, and I, knowing that once again, the leader is the one to fault, not for not being a gentleman with the lead, but because a true gentleman, too worries about her feelings! Boy I love dancing with her! ...
There is this intermediate salsera, who is a lovely follow, and it actually saddens me when I dance with her, because I know I can't give her what she deserves, and she doesn't backlead. She also has a beauty that can be intimidating and make her seem unapproachable, so she will sometimes go unasked. Eventually, I do ask her again, to dance, even though it saddens me, but it saddens me more when she is unasked.

I have noticed 2 different approaches by salseras, when they feel the music differently. There are those who will backlead, and those who won't. For now, I don't mind being backlead. It could be as simple as changing the motion of the basic, or turning a single turn into a double spin, I'll get the message, and try to open-up a little and give her more space to move and do her own thing. Not up to solo shines yet, but maybe a t-stance.

This weekend, while dancing a merengue, I had the unique experience of having my partner pull away into a heavy-metul pose, devil-sign hand-punch in the air. I sure didn't feel THAT in the music, so I smiled gamely, gave her a chance to do her solo shine, then brought her back in, into a nice closed position :).

[SDsalsaguy]

Woah, talk about digging up an oldy! :lol:

[Sabor]

Ladies, what do you do/think, when the leader totally feels the music very different than you do?

they should hairwhip them into a coma..

[yippee1999]

If by "feeling the music differently" you mean he speeds up when I might have slowed down (were I leading), or he applies moves at certain points in the song that I think "odd", I really don't have a problem with that either way. My job is to follow, so it's not like there's a "conflict", as I really don't focus on feeling the music or applying moves to it as a follower, since....well... I'm following. If I were concentrating on feeling the music...interpreting it...thinking about what moves to apply to it... I'd lose my focus on paying attention to him and his leads. If anything, I am concentrating on feeling him if you know what I mean, or feeling him feeling the music, and then just applying myself to whatever is produced from that. :--)

[BrownSkin818]

My job is to follow, so it's not like there's a "conflict", as I really don't focus on feeling the music or applying moves to it as a follower, since....well... I'm following.
:( This would make a good thread topic if it hasn't already been done.

[MacMoto]

If by "feeling the music differently" you mean he speeds up when I might have slowed down (were I leading), or he applies moves at certain points in the song that I think "odd", I really don't have a problem with that either way. My job is to follow, so it's not like there's a "conflict", as I really don't focus on feeling the music or applying moves to it as a follower, since....well... I'm following. If I were concentrating on feeling the music...interpreting it...thinking about what moves to apply to it... I'd lose my focus on paying attention to him and his leads. If anything, I am concentrating on feeling him if you know what I mean, or feeling him feeling the music, and then just applying myself to whatever is produced from that. :--)
Interesting. I must say the way I dance is greatly affected by the feel of the music, so this can be a problem for me. I usually try and choose a leader who I think would be a good match for the song (as I said before I do most of the asking when I dance), but sometimes I get it wrong. I remember one particular dance a couple of years ago. A song came on, which was one of my favourites, one of those high-energy number that drove you on. I got one of my favourite leaders up to dance, who had a high-energy, whirlwind dance style. Unfortunately, it was soon after he attended a weekender, where he obviously got some sort of inspiration to change his dance style. So this was a new him, calmer, smoother, more measured and flowing. The dance turned into a bit of a bucking bronco show (me being the bronco :roll: :lol:).

I've since relisted this guy under "smooth & cool", and he's still one of my favourites...

Of course, when I dance out of town/at congresses where I don't know anyone, I do take more of a "wait and see what this guy's like" approach. And there are tons of songs I'm quite neutral about so I can go with the leader's interpretation.

[tj]

Try a rueda where the caller isn't on 1! :shock: :shock:

[thespina13]

I've gotten less tolerant of leaders who don't feel the music at all. I try not to engage in any sort of communication with them thatw ould signal a readiness to dance, after we've danced before. I don't go out for very long at a time anymore, and when I do, I want as many good dances as I can get. It's literally painful to dance with some people. I'm not saying it's painful to dance with beginners. It IS painful to dance with people who are completely ignorant of the art of this music, and what it's saying to us, musically.

Someone who feels the music differently, however, is another creature. if he's on time, or invested in the dance and the song, I will go with the flow. It's always an eye-opener to dance with a different approach. Plus there are always moments of personal freedom... what Edie calls her "Freedom Concept". Even within the space of one single basic, you can express your personal style and appreciation of the moment and the music, and the leader cannot tear you away from it. What can he do if you slip a body roll into a cross body lead? What can he do if he holds you in a Titanic? There is so much opportunity as a follow. You are never a puppet, you are never emprisoned. The lead is only slightly more in control of the tone of the dance than you are. It is our job to take his suggestion, and polish it till it gleams and sparkles with an unexpected and delighful brilliance. You can only do that if you maintain your interpretive identity and personal enjoyment of, and connection to, the music, while still being connected and intimately receptive to the lead.

[tj]

Nicely said! :applause: :applause:

[delamusica]

Ladies, what do you do/think, when the leader totally feels the music very different than you do?

Grit my teeth and do my best to figure out their groove (if there is one). Smile and say thanks. Put them on my 1-2 dances/night list.

Sometimes you just don't click with a leader. That's ok.