Crossing over from ballroom to Tango [Archive]

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 09:28 AM

I would say that the biggest single issue is that the conventional way in which Ballroom is usually taught creates an expectation that tango can work in the same way, or can be learned in the same way - but it can't.

That reality sets up tensions: dancers who, quite rightly, don't think they are beginners (they are not beginning dancers, they just don't dance tango yet) struggle to work out what is going on, and what is different. They have no reference point from which to judge what, from their existing experience, is of value, and can be taken along on the journey (which is much more than tango dancers would lead you to believe), and what could most usefully be 'put aside'.

Unfortunately, tango teachers, and their communities are very ill-equipped to help them in the crossover. Lots are, frankly, failed ballroom dancers themselves (judging by the bizzare things they say and write about something they have obviously not mastered), but even where that is not so, they don't have the overview that a wider perspective could bring, to help a newcomer make the transition. They say stunningly unhelpful things like 'Forget everything you know: this is completely different', but when questioned about what they actually mean by that ludicrous statement cannot give you a coherent answer.

The biggest single difference between the dance genres could be said to be the settled technique and standardisation of one, and the almost total absence of agreement about anything in the other. This freedom is one of the wonderful things about tango, but it is also a real problem to many, particularly those with false preconceptions about tango, or those looking for clarity and certainty and finding none.

It isn't just that the teachers can't agree among themselves (and they certainly can't), but because of the nature of the dance, which is personal to each and owned by none, everyone is an expert. And, boy, they are happy to share! If you can keep to yourself that you come from the ballroom world for your first few classes, so much the better. It gets a bit tedious when everyone in the class (including the novices who only came for the first time last week) queue up to tell you what's what. I can't imagine why anyone would find that helpful.

There are other directions in which to cross over - and frequently a steeper learning curve. Tango is simple (as someone else said on another thread here earlier today), but not necessarily easy. The same is true of Ballroom. I always have my new beginners dancing basic (but authentic) simple movements in not one, but three, contrasting styles, and to music, in their very first class. Then we spend a lot of time getting better at it.

Tango is like that (although I don't think anyone would take on tango, vals and milonga in one go, in week one), and you can be dancing tango, simply, but for real, in about an hour. Then you spend a lot of time getting better at it.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 09:44 AM

... and then the impolite habit to turn the face away.

That's not really fair. It is the norm in some other styles, and politeness doesn't enter into it, other than in your perception. It's the job of their teacher to gently put them right.

I´m no expert with BR but as far as I know there are definitely differences between standard BR and latin. And I think there are also differences in hold, posture and moves between international BR and american style. And country, folk and swing dances have their own styles, too.

There are, arguably, far greater differences between the very varied dance styles that most tango dancers put together as 'Ballroom', than there are between, say Ballroom Tango and AT. The crossover from one to another between that group can be far harder than to either switch to AT as a preferred style, or to add it to the family.

You only have to look at the competitive world of dance sport to see that only a small proportion tackle both Ballroom & Latin - it's usually one or the other, if they want to attain a really high standard at all. The ones that genuinely do both with equal skill and musicality are rare, and they are dancers on a different plane from most of us.

Ampster

01-03-2011, 10:51 AM

I'm a ballroom cross-over. Here's an old post from my blog that might help:

A layman's guide to the different types of tango (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/01/laymans-guide-to-different-types-of.html)

I also have have other articles there that chronicles how I transitioned from BR to where I am in Tango right now. Have a read, it might help.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 11:09 AM

Have a read, it might help.

I don't think that there is much chance of many people crossing over from the BR tango that you describe. Words fail me, which is probably just as well!

ant

01-03-2011, 12:31 PM

Posture, frame, where their weight is over their feet, .....how they connect/follow/lead

Generally agree but I think the posture for leaders is not as marked as for followers and maybe not so different and many of the princilpes for leading and following are similar, although there are some important differences.

how they hear the music, how they to move to the music,

I am not so sure about this aspect other than to think of the obvious that the music is different.

...people seem to come into it from ballroom and don't consider themselves as complete and utter beginners. They think they know what they're doing but just need a bit of a different style and some new vocabulary

In many respects I think this is the biggest hurdle to overcome and inpart rreinforced by the overlap of some similarities as mentioned above.

ant

01-03-2011, 12:33 PM

I suspect that many (most?) BR teachers approach teaching AT as they do ballroom and therein lies many problems in crossing over. Our former BR guy seems to focus on patterns with very little emphasis on technique.

If you are taught using BR principles of patterns rather than the foundations required in AT for improvisation you are going to hit lots of problems.

ant

01-03-2011, 12:39 PM

If you consider that argentine tango is not another ballroom dance, but a very different dance that you have to learn from the beginnig...

I think the above is very good advice.

I would lock away my BR knowledge and as my understading of AT increases then begin to fuse the bits of BR knowledge I have into this foundation I am building up. What is the timeframe for this? I suspect anything from 1 - 3 years.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 12:48 PM

I am not so sure about this aspect other than to think of the obvious that the music is different. YMMV, but IME it is blatantly obvious that BR dancers seem to think of/hear the music differently. Aside from the music itself being differently.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 12:56 PM

... but IME it is blatantly obvious that BR dancers seem to think of/hear the music differently.

In what way? How can you know?

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 01:13 PM

My ballroom experience is much more limited than my AT experience, but I have had ballroom students in our tango classes. Typically the ballroom dancers I have worked with or talked to about AT are NOT at the most advanced levels. They are casual social dancers in ballroom, not people who compete or do testing level.

I haven't noticed any advanced ballroom dancers here spending more than just a little bit of time at AT. Their schedules don't allow for it. The one or two that I've ever seen try to take up AT get frustrated at being newbies again after investing so much time in becoming advanced dancers. I won't speculate on whether they think they know more or whether they just find it difficult to struggle so much at this point in their dance life. Typically they quit tango before getting very far.

So that means that the people I see have some ideas that they have to put aside about posture and such, but it's not so ingrained that they can't do it. The ones who are very good ballroom dancers do have more trouble with the "falling backward" issue.

Music:

If they had ballroom tango, the difference in the rhythm might throw some people off, because they'll want to think of the ballroom tango music being analogous, and actually Fox Trot music would work better.

However, I think the difference that I've noticed (in myself for sure) is that since they are at a lower level of ballroom, they are still in the "counting the rhythm" stage. Even if they don't have to count it anymore for their various ballroom dances, they still are in the habit of dancing strict rhythm patterns. (Advanced ballroom dancers don't seem to adhere to them in the same way? Just what I've observed... maybe I'm wrong.)

Anyway, that means that they want "the rhythm" that they're supposed to dance to AT and the idea that they can play with it is sorta a shock. It almost gives them too little parameter. The idea that they can pick their quicks and slows leaves them too many options in some ways as beginners and they end up often not dancing with the music at all.

I don't know if that's what Peaches meant by hearing the music differently, but it's what I've noticed. The way ballroom and AT dancers use music is VERY different... I wouldn't go so far as to say one uses rhythm more and the other uses melody more, but there is certainly less importance of maintaining a specific rhythm pattern in AT, and that affects the way people listen to and dance to the music. IME. YMMV.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 01:16 PM

It's hard to describe...

Speaking purely as a follower, BR guys seem to think in terms of/dance to just the beats in the music. It's like they don't think of the smaller elements in terms of things to dance to. Steps seem to come in blocks, which correspond to blocks of beats and not necessarily musical phrases. Things tend to come out as glide-glide-glide-glide-STOP and do a giro or some other stationary figure. It's like there is a lack of understanding that a step can be, in and of itself, an expression of the music.

I'm sorry, I don't know how better to describe it.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 01:28 PM

A lot of the ballroom dancers I know aren't comfortable with music that changes. They want a strong beat with a strict tempo that never varies, and they don't generally get the concept of playing with the music. One of the things I LOVE about AT is that we get so much fun, interesting music...and the leads dance to it! And, like, when the music changes, we change how we dance! What a concept. :D

The posture did take me a couple of nights to fix, and although I'm doing better with it, I'm sure it can improve. One problem I have, I think, is that I keep my legs too tight--toned. When the man leads something...I don't know any of the names, but there's one where he takes a couple of quick steps to build momentum and that stops and sort of sends his energy through you so your leg kicks up behind you. I always miss it, because I think I need to relax more. I always recognize it just a little too late, about the time my leg should have already responded. If that makes sense.

There is one guy here who teaches AT like a ballroom dance. Luckily, my DH and I have friends in the AT world, so we knew before we started that it's different from anything we've done before (he's strictly WCS--another dance that is very different from the similar dance done in ballroom). We'd been told not to take lessons from this guy, and the other night we got a good visual as to why. We saw what we presumed was a couple who took from him, although we can't be sure, they definitely danced the way he teaches: everything they did was based on the academic 8, with no real connection or musicality. They stuck out like a sore thumb, and that is NOT the AT we want to do.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 01:36 PM

Uh...what you're describing is (I think, based on the description) a linear back boleo. IMO, if you're being taught that already...find another teacher.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 01:40 PM

Uh...what you're describing is (I think, based on the description) a linear back boleo. IMO, if you're being taught that already...find another teacher.

I'm not. It's when I'm being led at a practica/milonga.

ant

01-03-2011, 01:42 PM

Music:
However, I think the difference that I've noticed (in myself for sure) is that since they are at a lower level of ballroom, they are still in the "counting the rhythm" stage.
Anyway, that means that they want "the rhythm" that they're supposed to dance to AT and the idea that they can play with it is sorta a shock. It almost gives them too little parameter. The idea that they can pick their quicks and slows leaves them too many options in some ways as beginners and they end up often not dancing with the music at all.

Originally psoted by Peaches Speaking purely as a follower, BR guys seem to think in terms of/dance to just the beats in the music. It's like they don't think of the smaller elements in terms of things to dance to. Steps seem to come in blocks, which correspond to blocks of beats and not necessarily musical phrases. Things tend to come out as glide-glide-glide-glide-STOP and do a giro or some other stationary figure. It's like there is a lack of understanding that a step can be, in and of itself, an expression of the music.

I can understand where you are both coming from with the above but,

We are talking about a person new to AT crossing over from BR.

I would suggest that the nuances of AT music would not be an issue at this stage.

It may become a problem as they progress if they want to hold on to their musical training in BR. On the other hand their musical training in BR also gives them an ear for individual beats and may counter and may even be more of an advantage in the long run.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 01:58 PM

Eh. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point: I don't think it's ever to early to start thinking about the nuances of the music.

As an aside, though, I realize what the original point of the thread is...but I was responding to a specific question asked of me. Shrug.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 02:00 PM

I'm not. It's when I'm being led at a practica/milonga.
Ah. My misunderstanding.

ant

01-03-2011, 02:07 PM

Eh. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point: I don't think it's ever to early to start thinking about the nuances of the music.

I agree but I would suggest that it takes time and learning to get to the sort of level of understanding of the music you are suggesting.

As an aside, though, I realize what the original point of the thread is...but I was responding to a specific question asked of me. Shrug

The question was asked within the context of the OP.

chanchan

01-03-2011, 02:08 PM

Eh. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point: I don't think it's ever to early to start thinking about the nuances of the music.

Do you think that a beginner who can't even hear and follow the beat, could really think to nuances of the music?

Peaches

01-03-2011, 02:15 PM

Yes. It doesn't take musical or dance training to listen to music and say what it sounds like--happy, sad, sharp, soft, romantic, angry. It doesn't take training to hear the music, think of how it makes you feel, and think of how you would change your body to project that.

I'm not saying that it could be executed by a beginner, just that I don't think it's ever too early (OK, almost never too early) to start bringing up those ideas, and to get a beginner to start thinking about those sorts of things.

As an aside, I'm years in--with some ballroom before that, and both formal and informal musical training since birth--and I don't ever even hear the beat when I dance AT. It's just not one of those things I listen to. Ever. I actually have to stop and revert to counting if I'm going to pay attention to the beat.

Ampster

01-03-2011, 02:39 PM

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 02:45 PM

I'm sorry to go back to an earlier post, but it is pertinent to what followed:

My ballroom experience is much more limited than my AT experience, but I have had ballroom students in our tango classes. Typically the ballroom dancers I have worked with or talked to about AT are NOT at the most advanced levels. They are casual social dancers in ballroom, not people who compete or do testing level.

This is a very important point. Many perceptions of BR held by tango dancers are based on experience of inexperienced, casual or unskilled dancers who happen to be BR dancers. They are making the error (lets be generous and say innocently), that the fault/deficiency lies in the 'competing' genre. Generally, it doesn't, in my view.

I haven't noticed any advanced ballroom dancers here spending more than just a little bit of time at AT. Their schedules don't allow for it. The one or two that I've ever seen try to take up AT get frustrated at being newbies again after investing so much time in becoming advanced dancers. I won't speculate on whether they think they know more or whether they just find it difficult to struggle so much at this point in their dance life. Typically they quit tango before getting very far.

This is fair comment. It is frustrating to start with, and it is difficult to find time to put in the work that anyone would need to become more than basically competent in a dance such as AT. If they quit early, it's not necessarily because their background means that they are so compromised that they cannot master the dance, but simply that the reward is too small for the required effort, if they can make it at all. I teach five evenings a week. It is hard work to make time to do more, given that I have to practise, train and prepare for my own classes and instruction. I may give up AT in the end, just because I know that something has to give, and that AT doesn't pay the rent.

So that means that the people I see have some ideas that they have to put aside about posture and such, but it's not so ingrained that they can't do it. The ones who are very good ballroom dancers do have more trouble with the "falling backward" issue.

What 'falling backward' issue? Any competent BR dancer knows perfectly well that a forward balance is required at all times (leader & follower). Just about the only exception is the BR heel turn action, but then only for a fraction of a moment, and the turn starts on the BoF, and ends on the T. Perhaps it is the same issue of them being not very good dancers: perhaps they don't know, don't care, or have been badly taught, that they have crap posture. It's nothing to do with BR technique, but it gets trotted out again and again. If anyone would dispute this point, please cite the published text of any reputable dance organisation in support of their contention: after all, BR technique is standardised and there for all to see. We don't stand on our heels. Ever.

Music:

If they had ballroom tango, the difference in the rhythm might throw some people off, because they'll want to think of the ballroom tango music being analogous, and actually Fox Trot music would work better.

However, I think the difference that I've noticed (in myself for sure) is that since they are at a lower level of ballroom, they are still in the "counting the rhythm" stage. Even if they don't have to count it anymore for their various ballroom dances, they still are in the habit of dancing strict rhythm patterns. (Advanced ballroom dancers don't seem to adhere to them in the same way? Just what I've observed... maybe I'm wrong.)

Advanced dancers in any genre don't dance the same way as beginners, and that is as true in AT as any other genre. BR music is characterised by strict tempo and often fairly fixed phrasing, and often with a very clear percussive beat. This suits the structure of the dances, where standardisation leads to knowing, in advance, just how many beats a particular figure or amalgamation requires. It wouldn't work, otherwise.

Lots of experienced dancers can bring a real degree of flexibility and musicality to their interpretation of the rhythm, though, but in ways that are appropriate to what they are dancing. There's no reason to think that they would be the same ways that we bring musicality to AT. Many casual social dancers, though, can barely hear a beat when it is being banged out on a snare drum, but that is their shortcoming, it isn't ingrained through their experience of BR.

Anyway, that means that they want "the rhythm" that they're supposed to dance to AT and the idea that they can play with it is sorta a shock. It almost gives them too little parameter. The idea that they can pick their quicks and slows leaves them too many options in some ways as beginners and they end up often not dancing with the music at all.

Most beginners feel most comfortable with simple rhythmic music: Di Sarli or D'Arienzo, and who would blame them? Learning that they can choose their own 'quicks' and 'slows', within the constraints of what is playing may come as a surprise, and the ability to do it with any real musicality doesn't necessarily come easily, but this is true for everyone, coming to AT for the first time. I don't think existing exposure to BR music is in any way counterproductive. If nothing else, it teaches you to discern the pulse of the music, and most 'vanilla' BR dancers never progress much beyond that, and dance the sequences they were taught. That's their loss, but it's not their fault.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 02:46 PM

Uh...what you're describing is (I think, based on the description) a linear back boleo. IMO, if you're being taught that already...find another teacher.

Yeah, I'm with Peaches on this one.. I don't know if you have a choice of other teachers, but back linear boleos are dangerous on the dance floor. They could be a good exercise for knowing that you need to relax more, but they have limited use out social dancing. I've been doing AT for quite awhile now and I actually stiffen up when I feel someone lead these because there are only a couple of people I trust to lead them when it is safe for me to let my leg fly. There are SO many other things you can do in AT, that these should be almost completely eliminated from your social dance and saved for demos or times when you are pretty much alone on the floor.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 02:50 PM

Yeah, I'm with Peaches on this one.. I don't know if you have a choice of other teachers, but back linear boleos are dangerous on the dance floor. They could be a good exercise for knowing that you need to relax more, but they have limited use out social dancing. I've been doing AT for quite awhile now and I actually stiffen up when I feel someone lead these because there are only a couple of people I trust to lead them when it is safe for me to let my leg fly. There are SO many other things you can do in AT, that these should be almost completely eliminated from your social dance and saved for demos or times when you are pretty much alone on the floor.

Once again: this is when I'm being led. Not in class.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 02:50 PM

I'm not. It's when I'm being led at a practica/milonga.

Oh... that's too bad... I hope the people leading you in them are advanced enough to be able to judge the amount of space you have to execute them given that their view is foreshortened. They also need to be able to gauge whether someone will be stepping INTO the space you need for your leg.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 02:54 PM

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 02:55 PM

Oh... that's too bad... I hope the people leading you in them are advanced enough to be able to judge the amount of space you have to execute them given that their view is foreshortened. They also need to be able to gauge whether someone will be stepping INTO the space you need for your leg.

In the times that I've been led in it and when I've seen it led, I've never seen anyone get kicked. In fact, one studio I go to does a lot of kicks and very acrobatic/athletic movements on the dance floor that some people don't approve of. I'm sure there have been accidents, but I haven't seen anyone get kicked yet. Granted, my experience is limited.

But, in any case, I can't control what the leader does. I can only trust him not to crash me into anyone and to do my best with what he leads me into. The point of my post was supposed to be about relaxing my legs, not the merits (or lack thereof) of that particular movement.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 02:57 PM

What 'falling backward' issue? Any competent BR dancer knows perfectly well that a forward balance is required at all times (leader & follower). Just about the only exception is the BR heel turn action, but then only for a fraction of a moment, and the turn starts on the BoF, and ends on the T. Perhaps it is the same issue of them being not very good dancers: perhaps they don't know, don't care, or have been badly taught, that they have crap posture. It's nothing to do with BR technique, but it gets trotted out again and again. If anyone would dispute this point, please cite the published text of any reputable dance organisation in support of their contention: after all, BR technique is standardised and there for all to see. We don't stand on our heels. Ever.I could be wrong (Zoo, please correct me if I'm putting incorrect words in your mouth.), but I don't think that's what Zoo meant when she used the phrase "falling backward" or some such.

From what I gather (have been told, repeatedly, from BR dancers trying/dabbling with AT, and AT dancers dancing with said dabblers), BR dancers don't dance "toward" or "into" their partner the same way that AT dancers do. I'm speaking specifically about followers here. I've heard/read a lot that in BR a large emphasis is on the follower moving "away" from the leader to create space for him to move into. That sort of thing, in AT, I have been told creates the sensation of the follower "falling away from" or "falling backward" from the leader. It breaks connection.

Is that what you were getting at, Zoo?

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 02:58 PM

Eureka! I just remembered the other point I had wanted to make (pages and pages ago) but had forgotten.

Based on conversations with various people, it would seem that what is "signal" versus what is "noise" between AT and BR are, in some respects, completely opposite. The biggest thing that comes to mind, for me as a follower, is the man's weight changes. As regards AT...I don't care. I don't feel his weight changes, and I ignore whatever it is that he his doing with his feet. He could be dancing a jig or a polka for all I care and it wouldn't matter; all that matters to me is what weight change he leads me to do. Similarly, when it came to dancing (*cough*) ballroom, I couldn't ever feel the man's weight change...because I'd been so trained to ignore them. To me, his weight changes were "noise" and not "signal."

I have, likewise, heard the opposite is true for various BR dancers who have tried AT--that they couldn't/had a hard time wrapping their mind/body around the idea of ignoring the man's weight changes. It made being on separate feet a bit...er...tricky.

Ah--very good point. I sometimes wonder if I'm doing what the man wants, when I feel him doing something different or syncopating when I'm not.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 02:59 PM

Yup. Stand on whatever foot he tells you to...and then ignore everything else! :D

Subliminal

01-03-2011, 03:02 PM

To the OP:

I pretty much will dance with anyone, including BR people dipping their feet into AT. There are a couple things I've noticed:

1. BR followers can have trouble recognizing that it's ok to be in cross system, and will sometimes switch their feet on their own. AT followers learn early on what it feels like to be on the same foot as the leader, and will ignore it.
2. BR followers will often feel the need to keep going once started, building up more momentum than is needed. You can avoid this by making each step deliberate, and understanding that changes of direction happen often in tango.

That's all I can think of right now. You might not notice these things happening because a good leader can correct for them. Or you might not have these problems at all, I am generalizing from experience. :-)

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 03:03 PM

I can understand where you are both coming from with the above but,
We are talking about a person new to AT crossing over from BR.
I would suggest that the nuances of AT music would not be an issue at this stage..

If you think I am talking about the nuances of the music, then you aren't understanding where I'm coming from.

I'm talking about the basic concept (and it is VERY basic and something that comes up pretty early on) that there is NO set rhythm pattern to dance continuously in the vein of "Slow,Slow,Quick,Quick" (like Fox Trot) or "step,step,chachacha", or "Slow,Slow,TangGoClose" or "Slow,Quick,Quick" (rhumba) etc.

(forgive if my writing of these rhythms is incorrect... as I said, my BR experience is limited)

This entire concept of a set rhythm pattern to be danced for the whole piece is simply non-existent in AT. It's not unusual for BR dancers (especially those who are at the beginner-intermediate stage) to ASK for the rhythm pattern.

A separate issue is that often people, regardless of their specific background in other dances, have trouble finding the beat in some of the Argentine music. If they've never heard it before, the unfamiliar instruments combined with the fact that the rhythm isn't played by a percussion or bass instrument often leaves them unable to find a rhythm at all.

I have had more than one student who simply COULD NOT find the beat. I thought it was related to their ability to hear beats in music until I put on other types of music to test them and they clapped out the beat just fine, (but got lost again when I switched back to the Argentine music.) This problem was usually improved when they bought some CD's and started listening to them outside of class to become more comfortable with the sound.

I would not consider the beat to be a "nuance" of music.

dchester

01-03-2011, 03:03 PM

What 'falling backward' issue? Any competent BR dancer knows perfectly well that a forward balance is required at all times (leader & follower). Just about the only exception is the BR heel turn action, but then only for a fraction of a moment, and the turn starts on the BoF, and ends on the T. Perhaps it is the same issue of them being not very good dancers: perhaps they don't know, don't care, or have been badly taught, that they have crap posture. It's nothing to do with BR technique, but it gets trotted out again and again. If anyone would dispute this point, please cite the published text of any reputable dance organisation in support of their contention: after all, BR technique is standardised and there for all to see. We don't stand on our heels. Ever.
It's not about what they are doing with their feet, but more about what they are doing with their head and upper body. The first time I experienced a follower with this type of "embrace", it made me feel like she didn't want to be dancing with me (and I kept thinking, she should have just said no if she didn't want to dance with me).

The really strange thing (for me) was that at the end of the tanda, she was very complimentary and said she'd like to dance another tanda. That led me to asking about her embrace, and that's how I learned she had a BR background. Since then, whenever I've felt a follower leaning away (sort of like their back and head curves away from me), I've asked if they did BR, and the answer has always been yes.

I don't have a link or document or anything like what you appear to be asking for, but it's my personal experience (which granted may not have much value to anyone else).

Subliminal

01-03-2011, 03:03 PM

Dammit Peach, you posted while I was thinking out my reply. :-D

Subliminal

01-03-2011, 03:05 PM

Yes, dchester, I've noticed the pulling away thing too!

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 03:05 PM

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 03:05 PM

Eureka! I just remembered the other point I had wanted to make (pages and pages ago) but had forgotten.

Based on conversations with various people, it would seem that what is "signal" versus what is "noise" between AT and BR are, in some respects, completely opposite. The biggest thing that comes to mind, for me as a follower, is the man's weight changes. As regards AT...I don't care. I don't feel his weight changes, and I ignore whatever it is that he his doing with his feet. He could be dancing a jig or a polka for all I care and it wouldn't matter; all that matters to me is what weight change he leads me to do. Similarly, when it came to dancing (*cough*) ballroom, I couldn't ever feel the man's weight change...because I'd been so trained to ignore them. To me, his weight changes were "noise" and not "signal."

I have, likewise, heard the opposite is true for various BR dancers who have tried AT--that they couldn't/had a hard time wrapping their mind/body around the idea of ignoring the man's weight changes. It made being on separate feet a bit...er...tricky.

Oh yes, this is a real issue in making the change. In BR, nearly all steps requiring a weight change will have both partners change together. They have no real need to be aware of the others movement, in the sense that the timing of the step is given (from the pulse of the music), and they both knew that it was required. In AT, I have found (as a leader) needing to develop the control and awareness to be 'responsible' for my followers weight changes, independently of my own, the biggest single challenge I have encountered.

Subliminal

01-03-2011, 03:10 PM

I have found I can overlead a BR follower to stay on the foot I want. Almost like sending a reasurrance through the connection that what we're doing is a 'step' and it's ok. But it can be taxing to dance an entire tanda like that.

Subliminal

01-03-2011, 03:12 PM

Good answer! Thank you!

You're welcome, and good luck with your lessons. :-)

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 03:17 PM

This entire concept of a set rhythm pattern to be danced for the whole piece is simply non-existent in AT. It's not unusual for BR dancers (especially those who are at the beginner-intermediate stage) to ASK for the rhythm pattern.

They are almost bound to have that preconception, based on their experience, and it is surely for their teacher, very early on, to explain what is going on.

My experience, at my first AT classes, was that the teacher said that there was no fixed rhythm, and that you could move any time you wanted and with any rhythm you liked. I'm certain that he didn't intend to be taken at face value, but one leader did just that, and started wondering off across the floor with absolute disregard for the music that was playing.

I hope that the teacher meant that while the music 'usually' has a fairly straightforward pulse, the division or doubling of that pulse into steps, or pauses was the dancers' choice, and that particular characteristic tango movements, such as some version of an 8CB could be danced with one movement per beat (all slows), or very commonly have a SSSQQ pattern to the cross (if the phrasing allowed). He always danced that movement with that timing (regardless of the music, actually), but never described what he was doing in those terms, and I suspect, he wasn't actually aware of just how formulaic was the pattern he was demonstrating.

The poor BR dancer would have understood perfectly well had the class danced the 8CB through on more than one rhythmic pattern, to illustrate the flexibility, but perhaps a tango dancer wouldn't see how that would be a valuable stepping stone to understanding the freedom.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 03:19 PM

In the times that I've been led in it and when I've seen it led, I've never seen anyone get kicked. In fact, one studio I go to does a lot of kicks and very acrobatic/athletic movements on the dance floor that some people don't approve of. I'm sure there have been accidents, but I haven't seen anyone get kicked yet. Granted, my experience is limited.

But, in any case, I can't control what the leader does. I can only trust him not to crash me into anyone and to do my best with what he leads me into.

Eventually you'll see people getting kicked... if not by that move, by something else. It is inevitable that accidents happen on the dancefloor in tango most places outside of traditional BA milongas. I'm just pointing this out as a general note... not about anything specific to that move.

I got stiletto-stabbed in the kneecap by a very well known teacher (who incidentally I LOVE) in a class when she was working with another couple near us. Whether it was because my leader took me into their space or because she was so focused on what she was telling the other couple that she wasn't aware of her surroundings, I don't know. I actually found it rather amusing at the time, and she used the incident to stop and talk to the class about follower responsibility in movements that bring the leg off the floor (which is why I'm bringing it up)

There is the theory that the leader is responsible for not dancing the follower into others, but the FOLLOWER is responsible if she kicks someone when her foot is OFF the floor. If you are led to step in a way that your foot makes contact on the floor with another person, then it is the leader's fault. But the follower is supposed to be aware enough of her surroundings not to raise the foot unless there's room for the move. Boleos can be done with the foot low.

The problem is that some leaders lead these moves with such force, that it actually hurts to resist the momentum. And of course, back inline boleos are almost impossible for the follower to gauge the safety of, which is why I so hate having anyone but a few people lead me in them.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the BR topic, but I thought I'd point it out. If you impale someone with any sort of raised leg move, you may or may not get away with blaming it on the leader.

YMMV

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 03:21 PM

Dammit Peach, you posted while I was thinking out my reply. :-D

Doncha hate when she does that? :)

chanchan

01-03-2011, 03:22 PM

Yes. It doesn't take musical or dance training to listen to music and say what it sounds like--happy, sad, sharp, soft, romantic, angry.

According to me, the nuance means that, for example, a certain sound can be strong, can be soft, and can be something between: it is not something like on/off. When you can distinguish different grades of "softness", you can hear the nuances.

It has nothing to do with saying that the music is happy or is sad...

As an aside, I'm years in--with some ballroom before that, and both formal and informal musical training since birth--and I don't ever even hear the beat when I dance AT. It's just not one of those things I listen to. Ever. I actually have to stop and revert to counting if I'm going to pay attention to the beat.
The beat could be considered like a sort of "nuance" which is usually very strong and repeated with regularity, that makes it easily recognizable.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 03:24 PM

That is a good point. I guess my only point is that from what i've seen, the leaders are pretty careful with where they point their follower for these--such as into the corner where no one else is.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 03:24 PM

Peaches

01-03-2011, 03:27 PM

According to me, the nuance means that, for example, a certain sound can be strong, can be soft, and can be something between: it is not something like on/off. When you can distinguish different grades of "softness", you can hear the nuances.

It has nothing to do with saying that the music is happy or is sad...

The beat could be considered like a sort of "nuance" which is usually very strong and repeated with regularity, that makes it easily recognizable.Again, we will have to agree to disagree. :)

It's not that I can't hear the beat in AT music. Quite the opposite. I just don't ever think about it when I'm dancing. It just doesn't enter my radar. If I stop and listen for it, I hear it just fine. It is just completely unimportant to how I dance and my musicality. Shrug.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 03:30 PM

I could be wrong (Zoo, please correct me if I'm putting incorrect words in your mouth.), but I don't think that's what Zoo meant when she used the phrase "falling backward" or some such.

From what I gather (have been told, repeatedly, from BR dancers trying/dabbling with AT, and AT dancers dancing with said dabblers), BR dancers don't dance "toward" or "into" their partner the same way that AT dancers do. I'm speaking specifically about followers here. I've heard/read a lot that in BR a large emphasis is on the follower moving "away" from the leader to create space for him to move into. That sort of thing, in AT, I have been told creates the sensation of the follower "falling away from" or "falling backward" from the leader. It breaks connection.

If I misunderstood, I'm sorry, but the issue of standing with a backward balance IS very commonly asserted (even if not here), and it IS quite wrong.

But on the particular issue you raise, I think this may be, again, an issue more related to the ability of the BR dancer, than of BR technique. There is the related issue that in BR the followers 'poise' (the carriage of the body's weight) is backward, but only from the waist upwards, giving rise to the classic Y shape, rather than the tango A shape. So the 'hold' should feel different from the 'embrace', but it is a fault if the follower is pulling away on backward steps. The weight distribution over the feet should still be forward, even when moving back, and when the leader indicates a forward step by forward intention of the body (same concept), the followers foot should start to move, articulating the ankle so that the foot is almost vertical, and should move back, without weight, with the toe only in contact with the floor just as far as the leader moves forwards. Only at the full extent of the stride (as determined by the leader, never the follower), does the follower start to lower to the ball of foot with weight transfer.

If the man feels the lady pulling away, she is not executing the backward step correctly, as there should be a constant pressing forward into the man, with a little resistance, making the man work for his step (if you see what I mean).

The mechanics of execution are different, and the points of contact in the connection are different, but the underlying concept is very similar indeed.

In one sense (don't laugh), it's a shame that tango teachers are not also skilled in styles such as BR (as some are, of course), because it can only be helpful to have a proper concept of how other dance movements are executed correctly, given that so many beginning tango dancers are not complete beginners in dance. That they sometimes have a better understanding than the teacher of something that the teacher is often criticising rather roundly is not really helpful to anyone.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 03:33 PM

Body contact is sort of incidental, and I think there may be more cross-over there than you think. Good body contact is attained by basically trying to dance in the same space--by dancing into your partner. I danced with someone a couple of weeks ago who manufactures a close embrace by strongly holding his partner to him. This results in not only discomfort on the follower's part, but also bad posture and a dilution of the lead, IMO. This is just as bad a practice in BR. However, if a man invites me into a close embrace and I go, it is soooo comfortable and nice.

The ballroom connection is kind of a complex thing that is not easily explained. The lead comes from the man's center, but the lady feels it not only through the body contact, but through the arms--not because he's using his arms per se, they're just there and part of the whole leading system. She must remain in his right hand, but maintains body contact by dancing into him slightly. She does pull her center back when moving backward to create a sort of vacuum that creates space for the man, but they don't necessarily break contact for that to happen. There is more compression and relaxation of the frame in BR than in AT, however. That was something I've had to unlearn, just like not carrying my momentum through each step.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 03:36 PM

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 03:40 PM

When I was attempting ballroom, I was often told to dance "into the man's right hand" and that body contact was not a goal but was, for lack of a better term at the moment, incidental.

To give your teacher the benefit of the doubt, this may have been related to the 'backward poise' issue I mentioned earlier, but it just sounds like you were being badly taught, I'm afraid. The man should never have to use muscular effort to 'hold you' in the hold, and the contact on the ladies back should always be the lightest possible.

If anyone started to dance like that with me, I'd ask them to stop immediately. It would be the sort of fundamental issue that might make me break off a tango dance in the middle of a song and go and sit down.

ant

01-03-2011, 03:42 PM

I'm talking about the basic concept (and it is VERY basic and something that comes up pretty early on) that there is NO set rhythm pattern to dance continuously in the vein of "Slow,Slow,Quick,Quick" (like Fox Trot) or "step,step,chachacha", or "Slow,Slow,TangGoClose" or "Slow,Quick,Quick" (rhumba) etc..

I don't agree with your principle to dance continously without recognising phrases in Foxtrot. They are generally four beat sequences generally starting on the one beat and there is generally a pause at the end of each sequence. How can the phrase not generally be recognised in these circumstances.

As far as I am concerned I have not included any of the latin dances (re your reference to chachacha or rhumba).

This entire concept of a set rhythm pattern to be danced for the whole piece is simply non-existent in AT.

I am not sure whether we agree or not here, please refer to my post #13.

I believe we do recognise set rhythm patterns in AT music but we do not dance a loop of sequences to them. I also acknowledge that there are different rhythm patterns in AT and we can move to different patterns when we dance which is not apparent in BR but I would suggest this is not relevant when a person begins AT.

It's not unusual for BR dancers (especially those who are at the beginner-intermediate stage) to ASK for the rhythm pattern.

A reasonable question and easily answered and not something I would have thought would be a problem in a crossover situation.

A separate issue is that often people, regardless of their specific background in other dances, have trouble finding the beat in some of the Argentine music. If they've never heard it before, the unfamiliar instruments combined with the fact that the rhythm isn't played by a percussion or bass instrument often leaves them unable to find a rhythm at all.

But this is not specifically a crossover issue as you have acknowledged.

I have had more than one student who simply COULD NOT find the beat. I thought it was related to their ability to hear beats in music until I put on other types of music to test them and they clapped out the beat just fine, (but got lost again when I switched back to the Argentine music.) This problem was usually improved when they bought some CD's and started listening to them outside of class to become more comfortable with the sound.

Are you saying these students were originally BR dancers?

I would not consider the beat to be a "nuance" of music

Agreed but again are you referring to BR dancers that cannot find the beat?
Because if they couldn't they must have been terrible BR dancers. I would say that BR is far less forgiving if you could not find the beat compared to AT.

dchester

01-03-2011, 03:43 PM

According to me, the nuance means that, for example, a certain sound can be strong, can be soft, and can be something between: it is not something like on/off. When you can distinguish different grades of "softness", you can hear the nuances.

It has nothing to do with saying that the music is happy or is sad...

The beat could be considered like a sort of "nuance" which is usually very strong and repeated with regularity, that makes it easily recognizable.
Of course, you are free to use the term however you like, but you should be aware that not everyone is the US goes by your definition of the word. Feelings can be considered nuances.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nuance

Definition of NUANCE

1: a subtle distinction or variation

2: a subtle quality : nicety

3: sensibility to, awareness of, or ability to express delicate shadings (as of meaning, feeling, or value)

Peaches

01-03-2011, 03:44 PM

If I misunderstood, I'm sorry, but the issue of standing with a backward balance IS very commonly asserted (even if not here), and it IS quite wrong.All I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that a backward balance is necessarily what Zoo was talking about.

Or perhaps it was, in which case (like you said) it's something that gets brought up with some frequency...so to my mind there is something to the ballroom posture/poise/balance/whatever that leads a lot of AT dancers to feel as if their partner has backward balance/poise/whatever. The interpretation of what is going on might be wrong, but whatever it is seems to be something that plenty of AT dancers have felt.

But on the particular issue you raise, I think this may be, again, an issue more related to the ability of the BR dancer, than of BR technique. There is the related issue that in BR the followers 'poise' (the carriage of the body's weight) is backward, but only from the waist upwards, giving rise to the classic Y shape, rather than the tango A shape. So the 'hold' should feel different from the 'embrace', but it is a fault if the follower is pulling away on backward steps. The weight distribution over the feet should still be forward, even when moving back, and when the leader indicates a forward step by forward intention of the body (same concept), the followers foot should start to move, articulating the ankle so that the foot is almost vertical, and should move back, without weight, with the toe only in contact with the floor just as far as the leader moves forwards. Only at the full extent of the stride (as determined by the leader, never the follower), does the follower start to lower to the ball of foot with weight transfer.

If the man feels the lady pulling away, she is not executing the backward step correctly, as there should be a constant pressing forward into the man, with a little resistance, making the man work for his step (if you see what I mean).

The mechanics of execution are different, and the points of contact in the connection are different, but the underlying concept is very similar indeed.
I will have to take your word for things. I don't know enough to argue differently, if even that is warranted. But there is, without a doubt, something going on differently in how BR and AT dancers move, which gives rise to this sort of repeated complaint.

I know that when I dabbled with Standard I had fits because of the reverse sort of application of things. I was always told that I was not moving enough...to which I'd always reply that I'd move when I was told to...to which I was asked if I felt the lead and understood what I was supposed to be doing...well, yes...to which I was told to MOVE! Which just got me back to my original point that I'd move when I was told to move. It was a never-ending cycle that didn't end well (a few months later). :D

In one sense (don't laugh), it's a shame that tango teachers are not also skilled in styles such as BR (as some are, of course), because it can only be helpful to have a proper concept of how other dance movements are executed correctly, given that so many beginning tango dancers are not complete beginners in dance. That they sometimes have a better understanding than the teacher of something that the teacher is often criticising rather roundly is not really helpful to anyone. Agreed, or at least a decent working knowledge. I can see where it would be very helpful to have a teacher that could explain to a primarily-BR dancer how to dance AT...using BR terms that were understood by the student. ...which, incidentally, is how my teacher tried explaining BR to me--by relating it to AT, which I did get!

Peaches

01-03-2011, 03:48 PM

To give your teacher the benefit of the doubt, this may have been related to the 'backward poise' issue I mentioned earlier, but it just sounds like you were being badly taught, I'm afraid. The man should never have to use muscular effort to 'hold you' in the hold, and the contact on the ladies back should always be the lightest possible.

If anyone started to dance like that with me, I'd ask them to stop immediately. It would be the sort of fundamental issue that might make me break off a tango dance in the middle of a song and go and sit down.
It was a poise thing, and related to me and my issue. I had the tendency--from AT--to bring my left shoulder in towards the man and open out on the right side, and to really bring my head around to face him. The contact with my back wouldn't have been light if my teacher had kept his frame, it would have been non-existant.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 03:53 PM

But there is, without a doubt, something going on differently in how BR and AT dancers move, which gives rise to this sort of repeated complaint.

Well, having a backward poise with a forward balance is always going to feel 'different', but it is appropriate for BR and not for AT. Unfortunately, most BR dancers can't/won't do it properly, so it may not be what you are conscious of.

What I would say is that surely there is a fundamental difference about the way that a follower moved backward in tango, in that the foot goes, and the body doesn't (until its movement can no longer be denied). It feels to me as though the followers body goes back to make the weight transfer, at the extent of the stride. It's almost as though only one leg is working at a time (the free leg, thing), whereas a BR backward movement has the body move with the foot, but the weight is still supported (until it can no longer be) by the standing leg, which is still working hard, using the knee joint and ankle in a very dynamic way.

BR backward walks are very difficult to do well (far harder, I think, than a tango walk), and are often done badly. What tango leader may feel is the incorrect execution of what a BR dancer thinks they should be doing, but to some extent this is the fault ot the tango teacher in not getting to grips, very early on, with what is required of a tango follower.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 03:55 PM

There is a lot to be said for the skill of the BR dancer. The "falling away" may be mis-interpreted execution of her frame....just like unskilled AT dancers might, perhaps, lean too far forward or over-do some other technique to the point of it being wrong and difficult for the man to dance with her.Er...well, given the people I've heard it from/about, I feel reasonably confident that it is not a skill issue.

I think it is more related to what you said here: Body contact is sort of incidental [...] She must remain in his right hand [...] She does pull her center back when moving backward to create a sort of vacuum that creates space for the man, but they don't necessarily break contact for that to happen. And that is EXACTLY what does NOT happen with AT...and doing so will create the feeling that she is "falling away" from the man. Also, given that you say that they don't "necessarily" break contact is another indication...in AT you just don't break contact. (Unless the man leads you to. Another can of worms.)

There is more compression and relaxation of the frame in BR than in AT, however. That was something I've had to unlearn, just like not carrying my momentum through each step.This gave me pause, possibly because I don't have a full enough understanding of the BR side of things. Can you explain this a bit more?

Good call on not carrying your momentum with each step. Another big sticking point (and also a possible reason why AT leaders can feel like a woman is "falling away").

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 03:55 PM

It was a poise thing, and related to me and my issue. I had the tendency--from AT--to bring my left shoulder in towards the man and open out on the right side, and to really bring my head around to face him. The contact with my back wouldn't have been light if my teacher had kept his frame, it would have been non-existant.

Oh well, play fair then, that was a suggestion to correct a particular issue - from AT - rather than a generic BR tendency.

chanchan

01-03-2011, 03:58 PM

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. :)

It's not that I can't hear the beat in AT music. Quite the opposite. I just don't ever think about it when I'm dancing. It just doesn't enter my radar. If I stop and listen for it, I hear it just fine. It is just completely unimportant to how I dance and my musicality. Shrug.
It is normal, the same is for me.
You pay attention to more interesting aspects of the music.
Even when it is not the beat, there is always something in the music that you are following, and this things are made of notes, pauses, crescendo, staccato, legato...
BR music is much more simple and flat from this point of view, so dancers are problably not used to hear all that nuances.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 04:00 PM

[QUOTE]Well, having a backward poise with a forward balance is always going to feel 'different', but it is appropriate for BR and not for AT. Unfortunately, most BR dancers can't/won't do it properly, so it may not be what you are conscious of.Well, like you've said, backward poise with forward balance is not appropriate for AT. Based on what I've seen, it seems to be more of an issue of BR dancers not realizing that it is not appropriate and doing it anyhow. Or not recognizing/knowing that what is appropriate is forward balance with forward "poise", or some variation thereof. I won't begin to comment on if BR dancers are dancing BR correctly, only that the people I have in mind I'd consider to be at least fairly advanced.

What I would say is that surely there is a fundamental difference about the way that a follower moved backward in tango, in that the foot goes, and the body doesn't (until its movement can no longer be denied). It feels to me as though the followers body goes back to make the weight transfer, at the extent of the stride. It's almost as though only one leg is working at a time (the free leg, thing), whereas a BR backward movement has the body move with the foot, but the weight is still supported (until it can no longer be) by the standing leg, which is still working hard, using the knee joint and ankle in a very dynamic way. Er...sure. I'll take your word for it. Although I would quibble and say that the foot goes and the body doesn't...until the leader says otherwise.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 04:02 PM

Oh well, play fair then, that was a suggestion to correct a particular issue - from AT - rather than a generic BR tendency.Yeah, my bad.

Although twinkletoz did echo much the same thought... :confused:

Peaches

01-03-2011, 04:03 PM

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 04:05 PM

[QUOTE=Peaches;843745

This gave me pause, possibly because I don't have a full enough understanding of the BR side of things. Can you explain this a bit more?
[/QUOTE]

Sure. In BR, there is a certain "hard to get" quality about the follow. The man starts the movement, the lady compresses into him for a hair's breadth of a moment, almost like she is thinking about whether she really wants to follow him--this creates a compression of the frame. Then, she releases the compression and moves in the direction he sent her. This creates a relaxation (not complete, just in comparison to the compression) of the frame. In standard, this isn't necessarily something you can see. In latin, it's quite obvious when they're in open position--you'll see the partners ooze toward and away from each other, even when moving in the same direction forward or backward.

Of course, again, that is a skill level. Many BR dancers never get it...but I had to get past that and am learning to keep the same amount of steady contact and distance from my partner.

And I suppose it's possible that even good BR dancers feel like they're falling away in comparison to what AT leads are used to. I do not fall backward--I have a correct, solid, upright posture in my BR, but it feels backward to an AT lead if I fall into that instead of the more forward posture I should be in.

Steve Pastor

01-03-2011, 04:05 PM

4. ... Even though the girl dances backward a good deal of the time she must keep her weight forward...

Ballroom Dance Rhythms. Heaton 1961 page 41
I'm sure I could find more if I had time.

One of many reasons I keep agreeing that there are many similarities BR & AT.

The upper body "away shape", however has me a bit perplexed, and I've never attempted to analyze it.
Neither have I seen it addressed in any of the "Ballroom" "Social Dance" books I've looked at.
The connection must be much lower than in AT???

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 04:06 PM

It is normal, the same is for me.
You pay attention to more interesting aspects of the music.
Even when it is not the beat, there is always something in the music that you are following, and this things are made of notes, pauses, crescendo, staccato, legato...
BR music is much more simple and flat from this point of view, so dancers are problably not used to hear all that nuances.

That's interesting. The last sentence of your post isn't visible to me in the original?

Anyway, might it be that given a certain level of experience of the rhythmic freedom of tango that it is no longer important to hear the pulse consciously, because it has been internalised, with the conscious attention being paid to other things in the music in order to use them creatively?

BR music doesn't need to be 'nuanced' in that way, because the rhythm is fixed and the musicality is achieved in other ways (no less subtle).

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 04:08 PM

I don't agree with your principle to dance continously without recognising phrases in Foxtrot. They are generally four beat sequences generally starting on the one beat and there is generally a pause at the end of each sequence. How can the phrase not generally be recognised in these circumstances.

I'm not sure what point you are making.. that I wrote the rhythm wrong for Fox Trot? I said that I could be wrong about the way I wrote them out.

If you are saying that BR dancers hear the beginning and ends of sequences and/or phrases, I never said they didn't, so... again :confused:

I believe we do recognise set rhythm patterns in AT music but we do not dance a loop of sequences to them. I also acknowledge that there are different rhythm patterns in AT and we can move to different patterns when we dance which is not apparent in BR but I would suggest this is not relevant when a person begins AT.

Maybe we are using the term pattern to mean different things. By pattern, I meant that one must adhere to a specific pattern without variation for the entire piece. ie: "Slow,Slow,Quick,Quick" over and over and over and....

That is not true of AT obviously. Yes, there are "patterns" that get used, but they are not continuously repeated (what I think you mean by loop)

So I think we are saying the same thing, but we used the term "pattern" differently. I agree that there are patterns (ie: typical uses of slows and quicks) but they are not, as you say, an endless loop.

Also, to clarify, I am speaking specifically of RHYTHM patterns of TIMING of movements, not step patterns involving the specific movements themselves..

A reasonable question and easily answered and not something I would have thought would be a problem in a crossover situation.

It is easily answered by saying "there is no set pattern you must dance for the entire piece". Getting the people to take that on board and be comfortable without that parameter is NOT always easy.

And yes, it's a problem in crossover situations primarily. People who haven't ever been exposed to dancing a specific rhythm pattern without variation don't even think to ask what the "pattern" they're supposed to use is. Its not the way other dance forms are constructed.

But this is not specifically a crossover issue as you have acknowledged.

No. Difficulty finding the beat in the unfamiliar music is not SPECIFIC to BR dancers, but it does happen with BR dancers sometimes too.

Are you saying these students were originally BR dancers?

Yes, some of them were.

Agreed but again are you referring to BR dancers that cannot find the beat?
Because if they couldn't they must have been terrible BR dancers. I would say that BR is far less forgiving if you could not find the beat compared to AT.

You missed the point.. they could find it in other music, just not the unfamiliar Argentine orchestrations.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 04:10 PM

Sure. In BR, there is a certain "hard to get" quality about the follow. The man starts the movement, the lady compresses into him for a hair's breadth of a moment, almost like she is thinking about whether she really wants to follow him--this creates a compression of the frame. Then, she releases the compression and moves in the direction he sent her. This creates a relaxation (not complete, just in comparison to the compression) of the frame. In standard, this isn't necessarily something you can see. In latin, it's quite obvious when they're in open position--you'll see the partners ooze toward and away from each other, even when moving in the same direction forward or backward.

Of course, again, that is a skill level. Many BR dancers never get it...but I had to get past that and am learning to keep the same amount of steady contact and distance from my partner.

And I suppose it's possible that even good BR dancers feel like they're falling away in comparison to what AT leads are used to. I do not fall backward--I have a correct, solid, upright posture in my BR, but it feels backward to an AT lead if I fall into that instead of the more forward posture I should be in.
Interesting.

I would argue that there is much the same thing in AT. When I start to feel a leader's intention, there is an increase (slight!) in pressure in the connection between us. In response to this I may send my leg wherever he's asking, or not, depending on what the intention is for. As the step is taken, there is a "reversion" to the original amount of pressure.

This makes me curious as to why you feel the BR hold is more...wudjacallit?...right...has more compression and relaxation in the frame. I always felt like the AT hold was super soft and relaxed (it's called a walking hug, after all! :D), but I always felt like a BR frame was like an [expletive deleted] straight jacket.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 04:12 PM

In BR, you do NOT have to pick one rhythm (slow, slow, quick, quick) for the whole dance. Dancers go back and forth between rhythms.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 04:13 PM

The upper body "away shape", however has me a bit perplexed, and I've never attempted to analyze it.
Neither have I seen it addressed in any of the "Ballroom" "Social Dance" books I've looked at.
The connection must be much lower than in AT???

I'm not sure to whom that was directed, but yes, the contact area is roughly from the hips to the diaphram (Y) to contrast with the AT upper chest (A).

Peaches

01-03-2011, 04:13 PM

4. ... Even though the girl dances backward a good deal of the time she must keep her weight forward... I wonder if there's a disction to be made between keeping weight forward versus a forward pressure into the leader. I mean, I can keep my weight forward (and I do!) without having that forward intention. This as a completely separate issue from "poise" or "posture."

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 04:15 PM

In BR, you do NOT have to pick one rhythm (slow, slow, quick, quick) for the whole dance. Dancers go back and forth between rhythms.

Most figures have little variation in timing (but some do), but of course we choose how to link figures together into amalgamations (precedes and follows), often with some sort of continuity steps between, with considerable flexibility. The greater the skill level, the better matched the chosen figures to the music and its phrasing. It can be 'almost' as free as AT, but we are thinking in groups of steps as the indivisible unit, rather than one step at a time.

Not easy.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 04:16 PM

Interesting.

I would argue that there is much the same thing in AT. When I start to feel a leader's intention, there is an increase (slight!) in pressure in the connection between us. In response to this I may send my leg wherever he's asking, or not, depending on what the intention is for. As the step is taken, there is a "reversion" to the original amount of pressure.

This makes me curious as to why you feel the BR hold is more...wudjacallit?...right...has more compression and relaxation in the frame. I always felt like the AT hold was super soft and relaxed (it's called a walking hug, after all! :D), but I always felt like a BR frame was like an [expletive deleted] straight jacket.

There may be some of this in AT, but it is not nearly as dynamic as in BR. I know this from watching the dancers and from dancing with them and being corrected when I danced the way I did in BR. If the AT hold is softer and more relaxed, you can't have the same amount of compression as you do in BR, with a more solid, energetic frame. A proper BR hold should NOT feel like a straight jacket. Either you felt that way because it's so different from what you're used to, or the person you danced with didn't do it right.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 04:16 PM

In BR, you do NOT have to pick one rhythm (slow, slow, quick, quick) for the whole dance. Dancers go back and forth between rhythms.

As I pointed out, that seems to be true of what happens at more advanced levels. But my experience has been that BR dancers at that level aren't taking AT and if they try, they don't stick with it for reasons discussed above.

The BR dancers I see (and work with) are not at a point of playing with rhythms that way. They are adhering to a specific pattern from start to finish. That's true of the BR'ers I've taught AT and the ones I've danced BR with.

So when these beginner, advanced beginner and lower intermediate BR'ers come to AT, they usually are looking to know that "The Rhythm" is that they're supposed to dance (continuously)

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 04:18 PM

I wonder if there's a disction to be made between keeping weight forward versus a forward pressure into the leader. I mean, I can keep my weight forward (and I do!) without having that forward intention. This as a completely separate issue from "poise" or "posture."

Yes, they are different things, but I don't think there is a fundamental technique difference in the basic approach between BR & AT here.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 04:19 PM

So when these beginner, advanced beginner and lower intermediate BR'ers come to AT, they usually are looking to know that "The Rhythm" is that they're supposed to dance (continuously)

Well I hope you tell them!

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 04:20 PM

There may be some of this in AT, but it is not nearly as dynamic as in BR. I know this from watching the dancers and from dancing with them and being corrected when I danced the way I did in BR. If the AT hold is softer and more relaxed, you can't have the same amount of compression as you do in BR, with a more solid, energetic frame. A proper BR hold should NOT feel like a straight jacket. Either you felt that way because it's so different from what you're used to, or the person you danced with didn't do it right.

Here's a video of rumba--look at how much their frame changes. Obviously, there isn't this level of compression and relaxation in smooth/standard dances, but the idea is the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG731ML1DiY

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 04:23 PM

A proper BR hold should NOT feel like a straight jacket.

A highly skilled dancer will hardly feel the frame at all, but will do nothing to disturbe it, either. We are each totally responsible for the carriage of our own weight at all times, and neither wants to represent any sort of load on the other.

ant

01-03-2011, 04:25 PM

If you are saying that BR dancers hear the beginning and ends of sequences and/or phrases, I never said they didn't, so... again :confused:

That is not true of AT obviously. Yes, there are "patterns" that get used, but they are not continuously repeated (what I think you mean by loop).

It appears we agree then. It is a question of familiarity to the music rather than anything specific BR brings to the table. Hence my original question.

It is easily answered by saying "there is no set pattern you must dance for the entire piece". Getting the people to take that on board and be comfortable without that parameter is NOT always easy.

I would say never easy but that applies to anybody coming into AT.

And yes, it's a problem in crossover situations primarily. People who haven't ever been exposed to dancing a specific rhythm pattern without variation don't even think to ask what the "pattern" they're supposed to use is. Its not the way other dance forms are constructed.

I would suggest one of the earliest things learnt in AT is the number of beats in a phrase. BR people may be asking the question but from knowledge not lack thereof. As a non teacher I see this as an advantage but if you as a teacher see this as a disadvantage based upon your experience I must accept your view.

No. Difficulty finding the beat in the unfamiliar music is not SPECIFIC to BR dancers, but it does happen with BR dancers sometimes too.

This maybe the case with BR dancers but what ability and experience did they have?

Yes, some of them were.

You missed the point.. they could find it in other music, just not the unfamiliar Argentine orchestrations

I can see that unfamiliarity brings problems but is this specific to BR people?

As I stated in my earlier post, in my opinion BR is far less forgiving if you do not find the beat compared to AT. It is far more relentless regarding dancing on the beat and to that extent it is different but again I see this as an advantage and not a problem when crossing over but again I say this as a non teacher.

UKDancer

01-03-2011, 04:26 PM

Here's a video of rumba

I've been looking for a good, clear, example of an Advanced Opening Out movement on YouTube for ages, and there's a very good one at 0:16 - so thanks for that!

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 04:27 PM

As I pointed out, that seems to be true of what happens at more advanced levels. But my experience has been that BR dancers at that level aren't taking AT and if they try, they don't stick with it for reasons discussed above.

The BR dancers I see (and work with) are not at a point of playing with rhythms that way. They are adhering to a specific pattern from start to finish. That's true of the BR'ers I've taught AT and the ones I've danced BR with.

So when these beginner, advanced beginner and lower intermediate BR'ers come to AT, they usually are looking to know that "The Rhythm" is that they're supposed to dance (continuously)

This is sooo off topic and beside the point, but I just want to clarify.

In the bronze American Foxtrot syllabus alone, there are three different rhythms: slow, slow, quick, quick; slow, quick, quick; and quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, slow...with some variations on the last part. Dancers are able to move between these rhythms within a couple of months. Are they truly interpreting the music? No, because most BR dancers don't think about that. However, changing rhythms isn't that big a deal. I know, because I teach lots and lots of dancers to do it.

There are also changes in the Tango rhythm within the bronze syllabus. Again, not that big a deal, nor an advanced concept.

However, the basic step of each dance does come with its own basic rhythm, and that is what people look for when they first learn AT if they don't know better.

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 04:30 PM

I've been looking for a good, clear, example of an Advanced Opening Out movement on YouTube for ages, and there's a very good one at 0:16 - so thanks for that!

Glad I could help. :)

Gssh

01-03-2011, 04:53 PM

It isn't just that the teachers can't agree among themselves (and they certainly can't), but because of the nature of the dance, which is personal to each and owned by none, everyone is an expert. And, boy, they are happy to share! If you can keep to yourself that you come from the ballroom world for your first few classes, so much the better. It gets a bit tedious when everyone in the class (including the novices who only came for the first time last week) queue up to tell you what's what. I can't imagine why anyone would find that helpful.
it.

This! Sometimes i think that is why so many tango dancers have some martial arts background. The whole tangle of one-way-ism, half -truths and outright wrong opinions, correct things explained using completely bogus theory, endless squabbles between schools, marvellous practitioners that are useless as teachers and the way that six-month students of any system believe that they are invincible/know the complete truth about how the universe works is sometimes a bit hard to stomach and to work through. And in tango people don't even want to admit that they work of different theories/ranges, and the idea of "steal my art" is only rarely voiced. If you have seen this in another domain already it is much less off putting.
One of the few teachers that impressed my with their attitude to this are actually Mitra and Stefan - i have heard that one of their conditions for students to attend their advanced class series was that they have to take classes with some other tango teacher and study there.
Gssh

Dave Bailey

01-03-2011, 04:56 PM

One problem I have, I think, is that I keep my legs too tight--toned.
Yes, free leg movement is very difficult to develop - it's the whole "relaxing whilst focussing" thing.

When the man leads something...I don't know any of the names, but there's one where he takes a couple of quick steps to build momentum and that stops and sort of sends his energy through you so your leg kicks up behind you. I always miss it, because I think I need to relax more. I always recognize it just a little too late, about the time my leg should have already responded. If that makes sense.
Yes, as said that's a linear back boleo. I did a class on this in October - here's my notes from that session (http://www.learningtango.com/Classes/Notes-October2010.html#31October), they may help.

But good free leg movement seems to take a while to develop (years, frankly).

JohnEm

01-03-2011, 04:58 PM

ukdancer - at last a proper explanation of what you mean
none of which I disagree with.

The mechanics of execution are different, and the points of contact in the connection are different, but the underlying concept is very similar indeed.

No matter how similar the concept, it feels very different.
After all it's the changed points of contact, the connection,
and the very different posture, that are important to the senses.

It's a mistake in my view to mix up ballroom concepts with tango.
Indeed it is why some say you should forget about ballroom and that
certainly helped me as so many things have to change. You may say
you cannot forget what you already know and have absorbed and
that's true so now I prefer to think more of bringing an open mind.

Tango developed informally and entirely independently of other dances,
bringing technicalities from elsewhere isn't necessarily the answer.

Dave Bailey

01-03-2011, 04:59 PM

Yes. It doesn't take musical or dance training to listen to music and say what it sounds like--happy, sad, sharp, soft, romantic, angry. It doesn't take training to hear the music, think of how it makes you feel, and think of how you would change your body to project that.
My opinion is that if a beginner can hear the basic beat, and attempt to move to it (for a leader), then that's enough to be getting on with. There are more important things at the start than musicality (posture and embrace are a couple of obvious examples - plus, of course, actually learning leading / following).

But that's just my opinion.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 05:00 PM

deleted due to formatting issues... it was easier to start over with a fresh post

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 05:02 PM

Yes, free leg movement is very difficult to develop - it's the whole "relaxing whilst focussing" thing.

Yes, as said that's a linear back boleo. I did a class on this in October - here's my notes from that session (http://www.learningtango.com/Classes/Notes-October2010.html#31October), they may help.

But good free leg movement seems to take a while to develop (years, frankly).

Good notes--I'm bookmarking your site. Thanks!

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 05:03 PM

Somehow, we just aren't communicating. I feel like I'm making the same correction again in this post to what you think I'm saying.

It is a question of familiarity to the music rather than anything specific BR brings to the table. Hence my original question.

No. There are TWO things we're talking about.

One: Expecting to repeat a specific rhythm ad infinitum.

This IS specific to BR dancers. Ballet dancers for instance do not expect to dance a continuous, non changing sequence of "Slow,Slow,Quick,Quick". Skaters would not expect it unless they are ice dancers who have never done anything else.. (which not something I've ever encountered on or off the ice)

People who go to clubs and bars to shake their booty or freestyle dance do not expect it. Maybe Morris dancers expect it.. I wouldn't know. But the Ballroom dancers I taught expected there to be a single rhythm pattern that they were supposed to stick with throughout. It IS something that BR brings to the table.

Two: The familiarity of the musical genre and ability to hear the "beat" when listening to it.

This is NOT specific to BR dancers. However, I have had BR dancers who had trouble. Yes, there are some people (usually not BR dancers) who have trouble with hearing the beat in any music, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about people who can usually hear the beat in music just fine and for some reason get stymied by Argentine music and orchestration. If I put on a Frank Sinatra Fox Trot and ask them to do the Argentine steps and embrace, they find the beat. I switch to AT music and they get lost.

It is not because they've never heard THAT piece of music. It is because the entire genre is alien. There's often no percussion. The beat is played by instruments they aren't expecting to be playing a beat and they often aren't bass instruments. They've never heard a bandoneon.

They aren't conscious of what the problem is. They aren't thinking nuances like "Oh... the piano is giving the rhythm" or "Oh, there's no drum set". They don't know why they can't find the beat and it's frustrating them because it's not a problem they've had before where orchestration and instruments are familiar. So I've found that getting them to listen to the music more often usually helps. If the listen to it in their car when there's no need to dance, they get "comfortable" with the way Argentine music sounds.

People who can't find the beat in ANY music are a different problem.

I would suggest one of the earliest things learnt in AT is the number of beats in a phrase. BR people may be asking the question but from knowledge not lack thereof. As a non teacher I see this as an advantage but if you as a teacher see this as a disadvantage based upon your experience I must accept your view.

Ballroom people are asking what the "set rhythm pattern" is out fo expectation. The fact that they have this understanding of rhythm to begin with can be an advantage. If they are unable to improvise rhythm because they need the structure of never varying it, that's a disadvantage.

Basically we are talking about what BR brings to the table. Some of it helps and some of it doesn't. Just like any other movement activity... some parts of it help, some hinder.

This maybe the case with BR dancers but what ability and experience did they have?

Asked and answered in several posts.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 05:23 PM

This is sooo off topic and beside the point, but I just want to clarify.

Again, not that big a deal, nor an advanced concept.

However, the basic step of each dance does come with its own basic rhythm, and that is what people look for when they first learn AT if they don't know better.

As long as we're off topic... ;)

Actually, it's not off topic, since the relative ability level does play a significant part in crossing over from one thing to another.

Perhaps, in the BR world, it's not considered advanced. I'm in a mid-size city and I'm not sure how to "rank" the BR'er's I know. As I said, typically people I dance BR with don't vary the rhythm pattern. They may have been dancing for 3 years, but they can't make that transition.

The exception is Viennese Waltz. People often can't maintain that quick 1,2,3 throughout, so they intersperse dancing only the 1. On the other hand, the only people I know who can do VW at all are more experienced Ballroom dancers to begin with. Most everyone here does American or Country Waltz. I have danced with ONE person who maintained the fast 1,2,3 for the whole dance... what fun that was! In this case however, I'd say that NOT varying was the more advanced skill.

Keep in mind that I don't run with a BR crowd. I go to dances sometimes but it's unlikely that I am dancing with the best dancers.

Studios here have to make lots of allowances to get enough students to stay afloat. This tends to be true regardless of what dance the class is.. BR, Latin or AT. There are places that offer "Bronze" and stuff and I'm sure they adhere better to the requirements of that level. However there are also quite a few classes just titled "Beginner", "Intermediate" and "Advanced". There may be "advanced beginner" or "Advanced intermediate" in there too.

One studio starts a "new beginner class" for 4 weeks. At the end of that period, the class is renamed so that people continue to come at the same time, and a different time slot becomes the starter class. The class progresses however it progresses. If people are doing well, it goes faster.. if people are struggling, it goes slower. Joining a class after the first month is possible, so people still sign up for a time slot that works rather than a level that fits them. Classes can get rather mixed that way. Eventually people get fed up and move on to the formal level classes or they quit.

So I really have no idea what constitutes "advanced" in BR. I can only go by what I see happening at dances.

LoveTango

01-03-2011, 05:26 PM

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 05:29 PM

I agree. I had a brief BR learning experience after dancing AT for a while. My teacher had to remind me often to "open up", throw my head back and let my head move freely (I don't remember the exact words). The connection for BR is at the pelvic level, not higher up at the chest.
- this is what I understood, but I could have totally misunderstood my teacher.

Throw your head back? Seriously? Oy.

LoveTango

01-03-2011, 05:35 PM

There is the theory that the leader is responsible for not dancing the follower into others, but the FOLLOWER is responsible if she kicks someone when her foot is OFF the floor. If you are led to step in a way that your foot makes contact on the floor with another person, then it is the leader's fault. But the follower is supposed to be aware enough of her surroundings not to raise the foot unless there's room for the move. Boleos can be done with the foot low.

Good and clear advices. Thanks!

Gssh

01-03-2011, 05:38 PM

My opinion is that if a beginner can hear the basic beat, and attempt to move to it (for a leader), then that's enough to be getting on with. There are more important things at the start than musicality (posture and embrace are a couple of obvious examples - plus, of course, actually learning leading / following).

But that's just my opinion.

As a counter opinion: I think especially beginning leaders need more than the basic beat. If you teach tango without the 8cb the first 2 weeks are going to be walking, pausing, weightshifts in place, and rocksteps. A basic idea of musicality can get a beginner to do a reasonably pleasant dance with these tools (and if they are really ambitious they can survive at a milonga with this). As a beginning leader (and to be honest this is still true now) it was MUCH, MUCH easier for me to create an interesting dance for my followers by trying to pause on breaks and to at least somewhat acknowledge the dynamics in the music than by spewing out half digested tricks.
Gssh

twnkltoz

01-03-2011, 05:41 PM

waltzgirl

01-03-2011, 06:14 PM

As a ballroom dancer, specifically as a follower, I never think in patterns while I'm actually dancing (anymore, of course I did as a beginner). There are basically only three steps, forward, back, and to the side (or four, if you count diagonal steps). I routinely do each of them in half a beat, a whole beat, or over two, and sometimes three, beats, in different combinations. Of course, each different dance has its own characteristic combinations, and there are some contraints--it is central to ballroom that each dance bears a particular relationship to the rhythm and phrasing of the music, and that results in each different dance's characteristic combination of step/beat relationships. So I won't use all the possible step-beat combinations in any one dance (though it would be possible), but I certainly will over the course of an evening. It may be somewhat different for leaders, since they have to direct us both and think ahead, but I suspect advanced leaders don't really think in set patterns as such either.

I'm not particularly "advanced"--silver in American smooth and straddling bronze-silver in latin. But I've danced for a while and had good teaching. It takes a while to get to the point of not thinking exclusively in patterns because that is how ballroom is introduced (for various reasons, some inherent to ballroom and some practical/financial).

ant

01-03-2011, 06:50 PM

Somehow, we just aren't communicating. I feel like I'm making the same correction again in this post to what you think I'm saying.
I think we are communicating but we sort of appear to agree and yet disagree maybe because some statements are general without specific information.

No. There are TWO things we're talking about.One: Expecting to repeat a specific rhythm ad infinitum.This IS specific to BR dancers.
I disagree on your assertion which if I am correct and put in the easiest language for me (not verbatim) is "that BR keeps repeating the movement within a track ad infinitum". I would suggest that the scope for improvisational changes in mirrored movement in BR is comparable, to AT, especially in the early stages of learning.

However this comparison stops once you consider non mirrored movement. Such as cross systems, the ability of the leader to invite movement from the follower whilst not moving, the ability of the leader to move whilst keeping the follower stationery and the ability for both the leader and follower to do totally non mirrored movement at the same time.

When you first come into AT this characteristic (improvised non mirrored movement) is not obvious and I think that is why many people that cross over and are taught using BR principles take so long to find out that they have not been taught correctly.

Hence this is not an obvious problem at the beginning of a cross over but if not dealt with correctly at that stage becomes a big problem further down the line.

Perhaps you had something else in mind under this heading?

I agree with the more improvisational nature of the dance forms you have mentioned (ice skating, ballet and bopping) but in general these are not partner dances and where they are this level of improvisation reduces considerably.

Two: The familiarity of the musical genre and ability to hear the "beat" when listening to it.

With regard to different rhythms within AT music compared to BR music I think we have already established our agreement to this.

The areas we may have disagreed on but unfortunately not expanded upon regards the beat itself.

I would say that the beat in AT is produced by the double base and in its absence possibly the piano or bandoneon. I would say that this instrumentation is unique to AT, not only compared to BR but all dance forms and I have not appreciated how much of a problem this could create, until now.

Was this an aspect you had in mind and have you any other specific areas you think cause a problem under this heading?

This is NOT specific to BR dancers.

We agree.

However, I have had BR dancers who had trouble. Yes, there are some people (usually not BR dancers) who have trouble with hearing the beat in any music, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about people who can usually hear the beat in music just fine and for some reason get stymied by Argentine music and orchestration. If I put on a Frank Sinatra Fox Trot and ask them to do the Argentine steps and embrace, they find the beat. I switch to AT music and they get lost.
Again it appears this is a person problem and not a BR problem. Do you think this problem is a result of the instrumentation mentioned above or some other problem?

People who can't find the beat in ANY music are a different problem.
Agreed but not part of this debate I think.
Ballroom people are asking what the "set rhythm pattern" is out fo expectation. The fact that they have this understanding of rhythm to begin with can be an advantage. If they are unable to improvise rhythm because they need the structure of never varying it, that's a disadvantage.
Basically we are talking about what BR brings to the table. Some of it helps and some of it doesn't. Just like any other movement activity... some parts of it help, some hinder.
Again I think we agree but I would say the particular feature you have mentioned is again person specific and not BR specific. However this problem taken as a whole may well be advantageous to BR people (although you may disagree) please refer to my post #22.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 07:21 PM

jennyisdancing

01-03-2011, 07:41 PM

No. There are TWO things we're talking about.

One: Expecting to repeat a specific rhythm ad infinitum.

This IS specific to BR dancers. Ballet dancers for instance do not expect to dance a continuous, non changing sequence of "Slow,Slow,Quick,Quick". Skaters would not expect it unless they are ice dancers who have never done anything else.. (which not something I've ever encountered on or off the ice)

People who go to clubs and bars to shake their booty or freestyle dance do not expect it. Maybe Morris dancers expect it.. I wouldn't know. But the Ballroom dancers I taught expected there to be a single rhythm pattern that they were supposed to stick with throughout. It IS something that BR brings to the table.

Two: The familiarity of the musical genre and ability to hear the "beat" when listening to it.

This is NOT specific to BR dancers. However, I have had BR dancers who had trouble. Yes, there are some people (usually not BR dancers) who have trouble with hearing the beat in any music, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about people who can usually hear the beat in music just fine and for some reason get stymied by Argentine music and orchestration. If I put on a Frank Sinatra Fox Trot and ask them to do the Argentine steps and embrace, they find the beat. I switch to AT music and they get lost.

It is not because they've never heard THAT piece of music. It is because the entire genre is alien. There's often no percussion. The beat is played by instruments they aren't expecting to be playing a beat and they often aren't bass instruments. They've never heard a bandoneon.

They aren't conscious of what the problem is. They aren't thinking nuances like "Oh... the piano is giving the rhythm" or "Oh, there's no drum set". They don't know why they can't find the beat and it's frustrating them because it's not a problem they've had before where orchestration and instruments are familiar. So I've found that getting them to listen to the music more often usually helps. If the listen to it in their car when there's no need to dance, they get "comfortable" with the way Argentine music sounds.

Your post makes perfect sense. What it boils down to, really, is the skills and needs of people who have no dance experience or natural ability, combined with a limited exposure to music. I know many people like this. They don't shake their thing in clubs; they feel uncomfortable doing it. These folks chose ballroom instead of club dance precisely because they want and need the structure, the rules, and the sets of repeating steps, patterns and rhythms. They're lost without it. I'm talking about beginners here, not advanced BR dancers.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 07:55 PM

My opinion is that if a beginner can hear the basic beat, and attempt to move to it (for a leader), then that's enough to be getting on with. There are more important things at the start than musicality (posture and embrace are a couple of obvious examples - plus, of course, actually learning leading / following).

But that's just my opinion.
I don't disagree. But I don't think there's anything wrong with beginning to mention, very early on, that different music can inspire different emotions and different feelings, and that it is something to ultimately bring to the dancing itself. Even if they are not at the level to incorporate it, it is something to think about if/when they listen to the music while not dancing. A bit of surriptitious (sp?) ear training is never a bad thing.

chanchan

01-03-2011, 07:56 PM

That's interesting. The last sentence of your post isn't visible to me in the original?

I added it later, to clarify better the comparison with BR.

Anyway, might it be that given a certain level of experience of the rhythmic freedom of tango that it is no longer important to hear the pulse consciously, because it has been internalised, with the conscious attention being paid to other things in the music in order to use them creatively?

The point is that you follow the melody, but the melody follows - with some variations and nuances - the beat.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 08:01 PM

As a counter opinion: I think especially beginning leaders need more than the basic beat. If you teach tango without the 8cb the first 2 weeks are going to be walking, pausing, weightshifts in place, and rocksteps. A basic idea of musicality can get a beginner to do a reasonably pleasant dance with these tools (and if they are really ambitious they can survive at a milonga with this). As a beginning leader (and to be honest this is still true now) it was MUCH, MUCH easier for me to create an interesting dance for my followers by trying to pause on breaks and to at least somewhat acknowledge the dynamics in the music than by spewing out half digested tricks.
GsshYES!!!

A friend of mine dabbles occasionally with AT, coming from a BR background. I *really* would love to get this person to just simplify things...limit the vocabulary to nothing more than a single step in each direction at a time, in place weight changes, pauses, and rock steps...and then see what sort of musicality comes through.

As regards beginners, I would love to see this done--without a partner. As in, forget about leading for the time being. Forget about having to "know tango." Just think about nothing more than how the music makes you want to move your body. Hell, structure it a bit more and limit it to nothing more than walking in a circle...and changing how you walk based on what the music is doing. I have done these exercises in workshops, and they.are.AMAZING.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 08:02 PM

However, the basic step of each dance does come with its own basic rhythm, and that is what people look for when they first learn AT if they don't know better.And I think that this is all Zoo has been trying to say. The idea that the dance does.not.have.a.basic.rhythm can be...disorienting.

Peaches

01-03-2011, 08:05 PM

The point is that you follow the melody, but the melody follows - with some variations and nuances - the beat.Or you follow the beat. Or you follow an instrument. Or you follow the pitch of the melody. Or you follow the ebb and flow of tension. Or...or...or...

nucat78

01-03-2011, 09:02 PM

As regards beginners, I would love to see this done--without a partner. As in, forget about leading for the time being. Forget about having to "know tango." Just think about nothing more than how the music makes you want to move your body. Hell, structure it a bit more and limit it to nothing more than walking in a circle...and changing how you walk based on what the music is doing. I have done these exercises in workshops, and they.are.AMAZING.

Did exactly that instead of trying to memorize choreography. It was ... enlightening, and frankly a bit odd at first. Unfortunately, schedules did not allow continuing for any length of time.

I probably would not do it, but I do understand (I think) why some ppl have chosen to ditch BR for AT.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 09:14 PM

I think we are communicating but we sort of appear to agree and yet disagree maybe because some statements are general without specific information.

I don't know how to be any more clear and precise than I have been.

I disagree on your assertion which if I am correct and put in the easiest language for me (not verbatim) is "that BR keeps repeating the movement within a track ad infinitum". I would suggest that the scope for improvisational changes in mirrored movement in BR is comparable, to AT, especially in the early stages of learning.

I have not been talking about the movements themselves at all for any of this discussion. I have been talking about the timing of movement throughout. If that's not clear yet, I give up.

As to whether it is true that BR dancers must stick to the same timing throughout, it has been made clear (and even I allowed for it in my first post on the subject) that in a later stage of development, BR dancers might vary the rhythm pattern. I just haven't danced with any who do and some of the people I've danced with have been taking ballroom for a number of years. Maybe they just suck.

It does not seem to be something that occurs in the very beginning of BR teaching. In AT however, there is no basic rhythm pattern to vary from in the first place. There is not a specific rhythm pattern that is a "default" that one varies or comes back to. An individual dancer may decide upon one that suits them, but there is no structure within the teaching of the dance itself that specifies it the way there is for the ballroom dances.

Does that make sense? In Ballroom, the dances usually have a specific rhythm pattern. It can be varied by those who are capable, although sticking with the basic rhythm is common (IME) for lower level dancers.

In AT there is no specific rhythm pattern in the first place. Dancers aren't "varying" from something specific or from the basic set rhythm. ANYTHING can be quick and anything can be slow. Quicks and slows can be put together in any combination (although some certainly work better than others) It's true from the very first lesson. This is not the experience I had in ballroom, and does not appear to be the experience that others I know had.

Maybe our ballroom teachers here just suck.

The areas we may have disagreed on but unfortunately not expanded upon regards the beat itself.

I don't recall that we disagreed about the beat itself.

Again it appears this is a person problem and not a BR problem. Do you think this problem is a result of the instrumentation mentioned above or some other problem?

Didn't I make it clear that it was not specific to BR dancers, but that I've seen it BR dancers? Didn't I also make it clear that one possible reason is the instrumentation? THe entire genre of music is unfamiliar. It almost doesn't matter why they aren't hearing it.. making it more familiar often solves the problem even without any specific explanations of instrumentation.

Again I think we agree but I would say the particular feature you have mentioned is again person specific and not BR specific.

It is not true that all ballroom dancers come in to a lesson asking "what is the rhythm I'm supposed to dance?". It is true in my experience that everyone who asked that had some ballroom prior to AT. So yes, it is an individual problem, but it stems from expectations formed in their ballroom class. So if you are going to insist that ballroom is irrelvatnt to this particular problem, we don't agree.

However this problem taken as a whole may well be advantageous to BR people (although you may disagree) please refer to my post #22.

I'm not saying that ballroom is an advantage or a disadvantage. As I said, every movement form, from Ballroom to Ballet to Budokai Karate will bring some advantages and some disadvantages. Not everyone with any particular background will show all of the advantages or the disadvantages, however commonalities of habits, as generalizations, exist.

I hope this clears things up, because I simply cannot write this same post again. I'm just repeating myself and I don't know how else to say any of it. Maybe someone else can step in and interpret if it's still not clear.

chanchan

01-03-2011, 09:16 PM

Or you follow the beat. Or you follow an instrument. Or you follow the pitch of the melody. Or you follow the ebb and flow of tension. Or...or...or...

All the musicians follow the director, so whatever instrument or voice or flow of tension you follow... you are indirectly following the director! Three are not many other options...

Notes are not played at random: most of them are on the beat, and if not on the beat, they are on half beat, or a quarter of beat.
The same is for the dance: you don't have to step on every beat, but when you do a step you do it on the beat, sometime also on a half beat, but you never do it at a random time.

Following the music doesn't mean "the music is sad, i am sad, that's all"

Peaches

01-03-2011, 09:25 PM

All the musicians follow the director, so whatever instrument or voice or flow of tension you follow... you are indirectly following the director! Three are not many other options...

Notes are not played at random: most of them are on the beat, and if not on the beat, they are on half beat, or a quarter of beat.
The same is for the dance: when you do a step you do it on the beat, sometime also on a half beat, but you never do it at a random time.Yes, I know this. And believe me, I can tell when a guy is stepping completely randomly without any regard for the music, and it drives me insane. But almost as annoying is when there is no regard for anything other than the beat--on it, every other one, on a half beat...regardless of what is actually going on the music. A run of eighth notes, or a triplet, or something else. Yes, I know everything has a relation to the underlying beats. But not paying attention to anything other than that fundamental rhythm produces dancing that might as well be done to a metronome for how (un)interesting it is.

ETA: There are also more ways of following the music than just what steps and rhythms to use. You can follow pitch with rise and fall, for instance. You can match building tension in the music by building tension in your body. You can follow an accent in the music with an embellishment. Why is this such a hard concept?

Following the music doesn't mean "the music is sad, i am sad, that's all"I never said that; please don't go putting words in my mouth.

What I AM saying is, if the music makes you feel sad (or happy, or angry, or playful, etc.) being aware of that and making an effort to incorporate that feeling into your dancing is a form of musical expression. It is a manner of musicality. It doesn't have to translate to steps, or rhythm, or beats or anything else. It can be as fundamental (? simple?) as how much tension you hold in your body. You can be soft and languid, you can make yourself feel tense and aggressive. You can take a step softly, you can take it sharply. THAT is what I mean about tapping into the emotion of the music.

Think about this: Imagine you have just found out that your dog died. Think of how you would walk. Now imagine how you would feel if you just won a million dollars, or proposed to your girl and she accepted, or found out that you are going to be a father. Can you think of how you might hold yourself differently...even just walking? Music can evoke similar reactions...why should those sorts of emotions not be translated into your dancing?

chanchan

01-03-2011, 10:57 PM

ETA: There are also more ways of following the music than just what steps and rhythms to use. You can follow pitch with rise and fall, for instance. You can match building tension in the music by building tension in your body. You can follow an accent in the music with an embellishment.

I don't say you have to step on every beat, or follow a specific pattern.
There are also pauses, which are probably the most beatiful thing in tango, and allow you to give expression and to follow sustained notes.
I just say that when you do a step or an emellishment, or any other thing, it must be in the music. If your emellishment is following an accent in the music, then it is perfect.
But, because the accent IS on the beat, if you follow the accent you follow the beat.

You mentioned various aspects of following the music, I agree with them (except for the rise and fall), I could also add other aspects, for example nuances in the lenght of the step, but they are not options to choice: you can and you possibly should apply ALL of them.
Because if you match building tension in the music by building tension in your body, but then you do an out of place embellishment you are not following the music...

What I AM saying is, if the music makes you feel sad (or happy, or angry, or playful, etc.) being aware of that and making an effort to incorporate that feeling into your dancing is a form of musical expression. It is a manner of musicality.

And what I am saying is that this a good thing but, alone, it is not sufficient.
Expressing emotion is important, maybe it is more important than anything else, but musicality is not only that: it is something more.
You can take a step softly, you can take it sharply, but if you take it in a moment which doesn't match with anything, you are out of the music.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 11:36 PM

From what I gather (have been told, repeatedly, from BR dancers trying/dabbling with AT, and AT dancers dancing with said dabblers), BR dancers don't dance "toward" or "into" their partner the same way that AT dancers do. I'm speaking specifically about followers here. I've heard/read a lot that in BR a large emphasis is on the follower moving "away" from the leader to create space for him to move into. That sort of thing, in AT, I have been told creates the sensation of the follower "falling away from" or "falling backward" from the leader. It breaks connection.

Is that what you were getting at, Zoo?

Uh... I don't know. :D

I actually wasn't speaking so much about the way things are explained to BR dancers.. I don't know how it is explained to them. I was speaking more about how it FEELS as an AT dancer to dance AT with a ballroom dancer. For instance, I don't know if the weight should be on the heels or the balls or in between in BR. I dont' know when BR dancers are supposed to do heel leads vs toe leads.

What I DO know is that the connection point is different and therefore, BR dancers (both leaders and followers) feel like they are pulling away from me rather than pressing their intention toward me when I teach them AT or when they come to a milonga as beginner AT dancers.

If I am trying to make contact with a person's chest and have my hips back, while they are pressing forward in their hips and keeping their chest and shoulders back, neither of us will feel we have a good connection except through the arms perhaps. But since, as a AT dancer, I'm not looking for info through the arms that much, that just frustrates me anyway.

The ballroom frame also tends to be more firm than I am accustomed to in AT because information is transmitted through the arms, is it not? Much of AT can be done without the arms, and this is especially true in Close Embrace. The exception comes when the leader has to prevent the follower from doing something moreso than when he is trying to make her do something. Yes, you will see videos of people dancing AT with the arms rather dramatically out and held in a "frame", but that's a style thing. Actually, in crowded milongas, you can't have your arms out like that. There isn't room. And frankly, when you dance 4 songs in a row without really stopping, it gets tiring, especially if you're a lot shorter than your partner.

So to me, ballroom dancers feel "away" rather than "toward" when they are dancing AT with me. Not necessarily because of where their weight is (although that may be a factor, even if it's an error on their part) but because of where their connection point is and where the impetus for their movement is supposedly transmitting from.

I'll add that this does not bother me when I am dancing BR because my expectations are different.

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 11:39 PM

1. BR followers can have trouble recognizing that it's ok to be in cross system, and will sometimes switch their feet on their own. AT followers learn early on what it feels like to be on the same foot as the leader, and will ignore it.

Really? Huh.. I didn't realize that cross walking was so unusual in BR. Guess I never noticed.

Though I have to admit that as an AT follower, I pay no attention to what foot a leader is on. It's irrelevant to what I'm doing as long as I'm on the foot he expects ME to be on. Probably when I go to a BR dance, the same thing applies... I simply don't notice what foot he's on until his foot is on top of my foot. ;)

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 11:47 PM

In BR, nearly all steps requiring a weight change will have both partners change together. ... In AT, I have found (as a leader) needing to develop the control and awareness to be 'responsible' for my followers weight changes, independently of my own, the biggest single challenge I have encountered.

I never really thought about that either... that BR dancers change weight together much of the time.

If it's any comfort to you, it's hard for followers as well to learn what to "hear" in their partner's body and what to ignore. Maybe that's because leaders have trouble learning to change their weight without sending a "change weight" signal to the follower. But it is hard sometimes to know "Was I supposed to change there?"

I don't think that is unique to BR dancers who take up AT. Moving without leading anything is hard for everyone. Following... TRULY following is also hard.

Ballroom dancers coming to AT do have one big advantage over people who have never done anything like it... the followers have already been exposed to the concept of letting the leader handle it and not worrying about what's behind them while moving backwards!

Theoretically BR dancers also know about the LOD. Hopefully they know to follow it!

Zoopsia59

01-03-2011, 11:54 PM

I danced with someone a couple of weeks ago who manufactures a close embrace by strongly holding his partner to him. This results in not only discomfort on the follower's part, but also bad posture and a dilution of the lead, IMO. .

He should practice dancing without his arms touching his partner.

Zoopsia59

01-04-2011, 12:04 AM

Subliminal

01-04-2011, 12:08 AM

Really? Huh.. I didn't realize that cross walking was so unusual in BR. Guess I never noticed.

Though I have to admit that as an AT follower, I pay no attention to what foot a leader is on. It's irrelevant to what I'm doing as long as I'm on the foot he expects ME to be on. Probably when I go to a BR dance, the same thing applies... I simply don't notice what foot he's on until his foot is on top of my foot. ;)

I think it must be something in the training. I've danced with complete newcomers, and there the common problem is they try to change weight when the leader does, even if it's a "hidden" change... but they usually will stay on the right foot if the leader successfully hides it. On the other hand, I managed to hide a weight change from a BR girl I was dancing with, then started three-track walking for a couple measures. Halfway through I stomped her foot because she felt something was off and did a quick change back to parallel without being lead to. heh. Who knows, I am just guessing from my limited sample.

Zoopsia59

01-04-2011, 12:10 AM

The whole tangle of one-way-ism, half -truths and outright wrong opinions, correct things explained using completely bogus theory, endless squabbles between schools, marvellous practitioners that are useless as teachers and the way that six-month students of any system believe that they are invincible/know the complete truth about how the universe works is sometimes a bit hard to stomach and to work through.
Gssh

Well, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" in ANY subject matter. I don't think that attitude is unique to tango... although we may have made it into an art form of it's own!

Subliminal

01-04-2011, 12:11 AM

Think about this: Imagine you have just found out that your dog died. Think of how you would walk. Now imagine how you would feel if you just won a million dollars, or proposed to your girl and she accepted, or found out that you are going to be a father. Can you think of how you might hold yourself differently...even just walking? Music can evoke similar reactions...why should those sorts of emotions not be translated into your dancing?

Yes! I know a couple teachers who do these kinds of exercises. I think they're really useful, even to beginners. From the very start, you can differentiate your walk from everyone else by just being a closer part of the music.

Zoopsia59

01-04-2011, 12:14 AM

or four, if you count diagonal steps

Uh oh....

waltzgirl

01-04-2011, 12:36 AM

I think it must be something in the training. I've danced with complete newcomers, and there the common problem is they try to change weight when the leader does, even if it's a "hidden" change... but they usually will stay on the right foot if the leader successfully hides it. On the other hand, I managed to hide a weight change from a BR girl I was dancing with, then started three-track walking for a couple measures. Halfway through I stomped her foot because she felt something was off and did a quick change back to parallel without being lead to. heh. Who knows, I am just guessing from my limited sample.

It is part of the training. The basic concept in ballroom is that the man and woman move as a mirror image of one another. A follower trained to sense the man's weight and make sure she mirrors it would feel odd not doing that. BR doesn't have any 3-track movement, if I'm understanding what you mean by that.

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 12:36 AM

Is this a less pronounced version of what happens in WCS? I love WCS, but I can't get it because that elasticity (compressing/expanding) is a challenge after spending all these years learning to keep my intention consistently forward.

Yes, this also happens in WCS. Elasticity is a great word, and one i was trying to think of earlier! Actually, a lot of BR dancers don't get this concept, either, and they're too quick on the draw when they do WCS.

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 12:38 AM

He should practice dancing without his arms touching his partner.

He can't. He's too busy being a big shot and teaching his partners.

plugger

01-04-2011, 01:11 AM

Zoopsia wrote: "If I put on a Frank Sinatra Fox Trot and ask them to do the Argentine steps and embrace, they find the beat. I switch to AT music and they get lost.
It is not because they've never heard THAT piece of music. It is because the entire genre is alien. There's often no percussion. The beat is played by instruments they aren't expecting to be playing a beat and they often aren't bass instruments. They've never heard a bandoneon."

I'm not sure that's the only reason; most tangos have an obvious rhythm despite the absence of drums. There's another hurdle.
Although La Cumparsita, Gallo Ciego and many other famous tangos are instrumentals, it's my impression that the large majority of tangos (not valses or milongas) have a vocal component, and the singers often depart sharply from the underlying rhythm in ways that seldom are heard in, say, the great Tin Pan Alley standards often played in foxtrot. There's nothing at all wrong with this -- jazz musicians play with the rhythm too. They just don't do it in ways that, to the newbie leader, seem to play havoc with the beat.
(Occasionally, although mercifully not often, the orchestra pauses and the vocalist orates through a few bars. Sorry, but I don't have my prime example at hand and can't cite it, but you've probably heard this sort of thing.)
These divergences between singer and orchestra don't occur frequently and teachers probably don't present them early to their beginning students, but they are part of Argentine tango and eventually they will need to be dealt with. I wonder if this helps explain what seems an inability of some beginners to "hear the beat.”

Ampster

01-04-2011, 01:12 AM

He can't. He's too busy being a big shot and teaching his partners.

Which in AT (unless you're in a practica, or advice is actively being solicited) is a big, big No-no

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 01:30 AM

Which in AT (unless you're in a practica, or advice is actively being solicited) is a big, big No-no

It is in any kind of social situation.

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 01:32 AM

Subliminal

01-04-2011, 01:46 AM

It is part of the training. The basic concept in ballroom is that the man and woman move as a mirror image of one another. A follower trained to sense the man's weight and make sure she mirrors it would feel odd not doing that. BR doesn't have any 3-track movement, if I'm understanding what you mean by that.

That makes a lot of sense.

I think so, but I'll describe it just in case you were curious.

http://www.havefunwithtango.com/CANONIC%20ELEMENTS/Canonic%20Elements_htm/walking%20outside%20in%20cross.htm

tangotime

01-04-2011, 02:21 AM

Snip... it's my impression that the large majority of tangos (not valses or milongas) have a vocal component, and the singers often depart sharply from the underlying rhythm in ways that seldom are heard in, say, the great Tin Pan Alley standards often played in foxtrot. There's nothing at all wrong with this -- jazz musicians play with the rhythm too. They just don't do it in ways that, to the newbie leader, seem to play havoc with the beat.
(Occasionally, although mercifully not often, the orchestra pauses and the vocalist orates through a few bars. Sorry, but I don't have my prime example at hand and can't cite it, but you've probably heard this sort of thing.)

These divergences between singer and orchestra don't occur frequently and teachers probably don't present them early to their beginning students,

The main Parag. is identically what happens in Salsa, constantly. And , there are singers ( Soneros ), who are famous for their improvs that "overide " melody and rhythm .

One difference.. these "soneros", are frequently introduced into beginners classes .

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 02:30 AM

It's a mistake in my view to mix up ballroom concepts with tango. Indeed it is why some say you should forget about ballroom and that certainly helped me as so many things have to change. You may say you cannot forget what you already know and have absorbed and that's true so now I prefer to think more of bringing an open mind.

Tango developed informally and entirely independently of other dances,
bringing technicalities from elsewhere isn't necessarily the answer.

As you say, you can't 'forget' what you already know. If concepts get mixed up, the fault probably lies with the teacher, who isn't doing his job properly.

An open mind is, surely, the best approach, but this is required both of the pupil and the self-appointed experts that comprise the rest of the class (sometimes, not excluding the teacher who, on occasions is clearly just a 'first-among-equals'). If the teacher has a sufficient understanding of the technicalities being brought from elsewhere, he will have a valuable contribution to make in guiding the pupil through the early months of their tango experience.

A teacher can usually spot someone's existing dance experience straight away. I always ask, at the earliest opportunity, and not in a hostile way, about someone's existing experience, and within the practical constraints of a class situation, adapt my teaching style and material to the needs I perceive. I lost count of the number of times, in my early phase of transition to AT how many times I was asked the question, but it wasn't put in the form of a friendly enquiry, but of an accusation or even denounciation: 'Are you a ballroom dancer?' One crowd were so hostile, I never went back. A teaching fault, again: it's no business of the class members to be teaching (this was a class not a practica), and the teacher was not in control of his class.

I may have been unfortunate, in my personal experience, but there is a vocal minority (and thankfully it is a minority) of tango dancers who are incredibly arrogant about their perception of the superiority of their chosen dance genre, and, by extension, of all its practitioners. You get used to it. But I have never encountered it elsewhere, and I've been dancing a long time.

Peaches

01-04-2011, 05:41 AM

Really? Huh.. I didn't realize that cross walking was so unusual in BR. Guess I never noticed.

Though I have to admit that as an AT follower, I pay no attention to what foot a leader is on. It's irrelevant to what I'm doing as long as I'm on the foot he expects ME to be on. Probably when I go to a BR dance, the same thing applies... I simply don't notice what foot he's on until his foot is on top of my foot. ;)
Heh. I never actually realized there was a "cross system" being used at all when I started AT. I mean, my first teacher mentioned it, but I was so overwhelmed by information, and it was so peripheral to what I needed to be knowing at the time, that it just sort of went in one ear and out the other.

I remember coming back and after I had started lessons with my new teacher if he was going to teach me this "cross system" that I had read about. Lo and behold, he'd been doing it off and on all along. Huh! And that's when I ceased ever paying attention to it! (And because all I do is follow, I have that luxury. :))

Peaches

01-04-2011, 05:43 AM

I don't say you have to step on every beat, or follow a specific pattern.
There are also pauses, which are probably the most beatiful thing in tango, and allow you to give expression and to follow sustained notes.
I just say that when you do a step or an emellishment, or any other thing, it must be in the music. If your emellishment is following an accent in the music, then it is perfect.
But, because the accent IS on the beat, if you follow the accent you follow the beat.

You mentioned various aspects of following the music, I agree with them (except for the rise and fall), I could also add other aspects, for example nuances in the lenght of the step, but they are not options to choice: you can and you possibly should apply ALL of them.
Because if you match building tension in the music by building tension in your body, but then you do an out of place embellishment you are not following the music...

And what I am saying is that this a good thing but, alone, it is not sufficient.
Expressing emotion is important, maybe it is more important than anything else, but musicality is not only that: it is something more.
You can take a step softly, you can take it sharply, but if you take it in a moment which doesn't match with anything, you are out of the music.
I [expletive deleted] give up. I have made my point, repeatedly. If it still isn't clear, I'm not going to bother trying to "fix" that any more.

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 06:04 AM

Heh. I never actually realized there was a "cross system" being used at all when I started AT.

You wouldn't have that luxury as leader, though! In a way, if you are not aware of it, the leader is getting it right.

As far as I can think, nothing like cross system exists in BR, and this is an issue for a cross-over leader to get to grips with pretty early on.

Peaches

01-04-2011, 06:30 AM

You wouldn't have that luxury as leader, though! In a way, if you are not aware of it, the leader is getting it right.

As far as I can think, nothing like cross system exists in BR, and this is an issue for a cross-over leader to get to grips with pretty early on.
Yup. I remember asking my first teacher if it was common for women to lead in AT. His response was something along the lines of, "Why would you want to? That's a responsibility that the man takes on, willingly. Creating the dance is something the man does for the woman." I like that. I have thought, multiple times, that I'd like to learn to lead...but I'm a sucker for being able to let everything go and giving up that control to someone else, and for letting someone else take care of me. :)

I wonder if there is any difference for someone coming from a Smooth background, as opposed to a Standard background, where it is possible to be on the same foot. Or, for that matter, if there is a difference between someone who primarily does Latin/Rhythm as opposed to Smooth/Standard.

Joe

01-04-2011, 06:33 AM

and then the impolite habit to turn the face away.
Come back and tell me how impolite that is after your partner has been eating onions or garlic. :p

nucat78

01-04-2011, 06:35 AM

He can't. He's too busy being a big shot and teaching his partners.

<OT!>

Many of those in BR also. :rolleyes: Funny thing is, the last leader who was really off on another planet, in re: what the real teacher was doing, was at an AT class. Teacher gently corrected him a couple of times and then jumped on him. He disappeared shortly thereafter.

<BOT!>

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 06:43 AM

Yup. I remember asking my first teacher if it was common for women to lead in AT. His response was something along the lines of, "Why would you want to? That's a responsibility that the man takes on, willingly. Creating the dance is something the man does for the woman." I like that. I have thought, multiple times, that I'd like to learn to lead...but I'm a sucker for being able to let everything go and giving up that control to someone else, and for letting someone else take care of me. :)

I wonder if there is any difference for someone coming from a Smooth background, as opposed to a Standard background, where it is possible to be on the same foot. Or, for that matter, if there is a difference between someone who primarily does Latin/Rhythm as opposed to Smooth/Standard.

Of course, as a cross-over issue, BR men can (or should be able to) lead already. The issue for them is how to do it in tango, not to do it at all.

The BR & Latin worlds very frequently get rolled up into one composite dance by tango 'commentators', when of course they are different as chalk and cheese (and that's true of individual dances within those families too, particularly Latin), and yes, there are different cross-over issues to consider. My own experience is exclusively in Standard/International, so the different considerations of the American styles are a closed book to me, but the OP is from that world.

Joe

01-04-2011, 06:54 AM

For instance, I don't know if the weight should be on the heels or the balls or in between in BR. I dont' know when BR dancers are supposed to do heel leads vs toe leads.
Heel and toe leads are pretty much dependent on your rise and fall foot position. The weight should always be on the ball of your foot (although obviously if you take a heel lead there is a transitionary moment when it's not).

If I am trying to make contact with a person's chest and have my hips back, while they are pressing forward in their hips and keeping their chest and shoulders back, neither of us will feel we have a good connection except through the arms perhaps. But since, as a AT dancer, I'm not looking for info through the arms that much, that just frustrates me anyway.
Some ballroom dancers are trained to initiate contact through the hips, some are trained to initiate contact through the chest/side, and some are trained to maintain contact through both.

The ballroom frame also tends to be more firm than I am accustomed to in AT because information is transmitted through the arms, is it not?
Actually, no. While bad ballroom dancers use their arms for leading and following, good ballroom dancers are trained to not use their arms.

Much of AT can be done without the arms, and this is especially true in Close Embrace.
Philosophical question: is it an embrace if there are no arms involved? :D

So to me, ballroom dancers feel "away" rather than "toward" when they are dancing AT with me. Not necessarily because of where their weight is (although that may be a factor, even if it's an error on their part) but because of where their connection point is and where the impetus for their movement is supposedly transmitting from.
Tango has a lot more expectation for "shared" weight than ballroom, which has the expectation that each partner is on their own balance.

Peaches

01-04-2011, 07:35 AM

Tango has a lot more expectation for "shared" weight than ballroom, which has the expectation that each partner is on their own balance.Oh no! Not that discussion! *runs and hides* :D

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 07:38 AM

Oh no! Not that discussion! *runs and hides* :D

There's always one . . . . usually me . . . but it's a new year . . let it pass!

tangotime

01-04-2011, 07:44 AM

Actually, no. While bad ballroom dancers use their arms for leading and following, good ballroom dancers are trained to not use their arms.

.

Really ??... On the contrary, without the use of arm/hand thru body connection, is fairly constant, particularly thru Prom. positions .
One would be virtually impossible without the use .

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 07:48 AM

Really ??... On the contrary, without the use of arm/hand thru body connection, is fairly constant, particularly thru Prom. positions .
One would be virtually impossible without the use .

We regularly practise man leading a whisk with no arms at all, relying on body rotation alone. Into & out of PP is one of the times when I would use a gentle lead through the arms, though, but I'm certainly only ever going to do it with minimal pressure. I usually lead into PP with my RH moving sideways, with body rotation to match. The lady will feel nothing on her back at all, unless she isn't coming with me.

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 07:52 AM

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 07:53 AM

There's always one . . . . usually me . . . but it's a new year . . let it pass!

No, I'm curious. I don't want to start an argument, just seek clarification.

Writers like Christine Denniston say that the 'forward lean' of the posture is partly an illusion, because the dancer is still within the limit of their own balance, and the torso is actually more upright than a casual glance would suggest. She seems to suggest that this is still true in CE, but clearly, there are moves that depend upon support from a partner, but that it isn't the norm.

Is that somewhere about right, or is it a 'depends on the style' issue?

tangotime

01-04-2011, 07:54 AM

I usually lead into PP with my RH moving sideways,
.

Why ?.. If the correct compression is applied combined with body rotation, then the hand should remain stable.

By moving your hand to the right, has the inherent danger of projecting the elbow beyond its normal position .

As to "leading/following " without hold, is a practice thats been around for multi yrs ( Peggy Spencer was a big advocate ).. but.. the point of that exercise is to teach one body contact and usage.

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 07:57 AM

Oh thank goodness. I was beginning to think I was living in some sort
of parallel universe!

That's almost a definition of the UK South Coast, isn't it? Why are you so desperate to cling to the belief that we steer our BR partners through our arms as though they were boats and the arms the tillers? Enough people have posted in this thread to deny it flat.

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 07:59 AM

Why ?.. If the correct compression is applied combined with body rotation, then the hand should remain stable.

By moving your hand to the right, has the inherent danger of projecting the elbow beyond its normal position .

My hand is only moving sideways because my body is rotating. It isn't changing its position relative to my own shoulder. It's as though the hand was held over my own right breast, but 15-18 inches away, and a rather nice woman has appeared in the space between. If I have to give the lady (particularly a beginner) a bit of a 'helping hand', I will, but not through choice.

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 08:14 AM

That's almost a definition of the UK South Coast, isn't it? Why are you so desperate to cling to the belief that we steer our BR partners through our arms as though they were boats and the arms the tillers? Enough people have posted in this thread to deny it flat.
I've never ever claimed that partners are steered.
I've only claimed that the arm frame has a use and is used.
In fact I've repeatedly pointed out that the topline is maintained,
you don't break the line at the shoulder so no arm paddling.

But TangoTime has it right, there are all sorts of "amplifications"
within the frame, he makes the point (accurately for me)
about compression into promenade which is also appropriate for the whisk.

Your own explanation of going into Promenade doesn't make sense
as you cannot lead that movement just from your centre,
both partners are rotating (slightly) in opposite directions.

And here we are again arguing about ballroom on the AT forum.
I'm sure you won't leave it here but I'd like to.

Peaches

01-04-2011, 08:15 AM

No, I'm curious. I don't want to start an argument, just seek clarification.

Writers like Christine Denniston say that the 'forward lean' of the posture is partly an illusion, because the dancer is still within the limit of their own balance, and the torso is actually more upright than a casual glance would suggest. She seems to suggest that this is still true in CE, but clearly, there are moves that depend upon support from a partner, but that it isn't the norm.

Is that somewhere about right, or is it a 'depends on the style' issue?
Yes. And yes.

This is a subject for huge debate, but the rough outline is this: there are various styles. Some have the dancers standing "on their own axis", or "within the limit of their own balance", or however you want to phrase it. Basically, if their partner were to suddenly disappear, they would not fall flat on their faces. (There are certain moves/steps which some believe the inclusion of which means that, by default, the dancers are no longer dancing AT, that do take one or both dancers "off their axis." I am not addressing those cases.) In these styles, the lean is mostly an illusion.

There is, debatably, another style where the dancers have a "shared axis" or "shared balance." In this style, if one person were to disappear the other would fall flat on their face. Essentially, both dancers "prop each other up." I am not using technical terms, and am not looking to have a debate of such. In this style, the lean is partially an illusion. It's not as significant as perhaps it looks, but there is certainly some degree of lean in that both dancers are beyond "the limit of their own balance."

tangotime

01-04-2011, 08:17 AM

My hand is only moving sideways because my body is rotating. It isn't changing its position relative to my own shoulder.

IF you can move your hand in dance position without projecting an elbow,then I would like to see that !.Obviously , if one moves ones hand in a sideways direction, the elbow MUST follow ( or lead ) .

The whole purpose of compression, is to ensure that body and arm are synchronised in rotation ( and other aspects of partnership ) .

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 08:25 AM

IF you can move your hand in dance position without projecting an elbow,then I would like to see that !.Obviously , if one moves ones hand in a sideways direction, the elbow MUST follow ( or lead ) .

The whole purpose of compression, is to ensure that body and arm are synchronised in rotation ( and other aspects of partnership ) .

No, you misunderstand what I am describing.

I am maintaining my frame throughout, and if I were to have an invisible (or see-through) partner and focused my vision on my two hands as my body turned to PP, the room would appear to rotate in my peripheral vision, as though I were on a slow moving merry-go-round. No part of my upper body has really altered its position at all. My RH, gently cupping the lady's shoulder blade has moved to the R as a result of my body rotation, not independantly of it.

Dave Bailey

01-04-2011, 08:27 AM

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 08:28 AM

Yes. And yes.

That is as I thought. Thank you.

Dave Bailey

01-04-2011, 08:28 AM

Basically, if their partner were to suddenly disappear, they would not fall flat on their faces.
Blimey, my New Years resolution clearly should be "read the replies before I add my own" :)

Basically, What Peaches Said.

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 08:36 AM

I'd like to [leave it there].

Happy to, but if you think the direction of rotation is different for man & lady into whisk position, I'd like to see that. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but never mind.

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 08:36 AM

No, I'm curious. I don't want to start an argument, just seek clarification.

Writers like Christine Denniston say that the 'forward lean' of the posture is partly an illusion, because the dancer is still within the limit of their own balance, and the torso is actually more upright than a casual glance would suggest. She seems to suggest that this is still true in CE, but clearly, there are moves that depend upon support from a partner, but that it isn't the norm.

Is that somewhere about right, or is it a 'depends on the style' issue?

It is a question of the style you choose.
Originally I used Christine Denniston's book as a starting point,
now for me there are areas of disagreement. But it doesn't matter,
we all have different opinions. It remains a useful source of information
and inspiration.

Her embrace stance pictures are a bit odd, and I haven't really seen anyone
actually dance quite like she shows. Jantango may disagree because
I know she has posted in the past about body contact from the chest
to the midriff. However Christine doesn't describe what we now know
as Milonguero or apilado (not the exaggerated apilado of show dancing).

There are many contradictions in Tango, it's why a simple dance in a hug
is so difficult to grasp. I can only suggest you widen your search to other
opinions, some of which will utterly confuse (Gotta Tango) and some will
repay the time of reading, viewing and understanding (TangoandChaos).

In writing this I'm reminded of the web site of my first tango teacher
which has a write up of lots of the main points of social tango lead and
follow but his teaching is almost entirely choreographed show tango
with the 8CB (wDB) as its fundamental building block. Confusion,
contradiction and paradox is everywhere.

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 08:39 AM

Happy to, but if you think the direction of rotation is different for man & lady into whisk position, I'd like to see that. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but never mind.
OK pedant(;)) - of the pelvis mainly!

Later Addition:
It pays to watch you UKD.
My comment about rotation was in regard to moving into promenade, not the whisk,
where the bodies do indeed have to rotate and separate the man's left side ribcage
away from the womens right. Please don't misquote.

Nevertheless this is all irrelevant in tango circles,except perhaps to those who bring
their ballroom preconceptions with them. You are not alone as I've danced
with ladies using rigid arm frames in tango.

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 08:40 AM

It is a question of the style you choose.

Indeed. And at least we can agree that Gotta Tango is confusing.

TangoRocks

01-04-2011, 08:41 AM

A further though, and hopefully clarification, as regards the "falling backwards" or "pulling away" thing.

When I was attempting ballroom, I was often told to dance "into the man's right hand" and that body contact was not a goal but was, for lack of a better term at the moment, incidental.*

As opposed to AT, where that's reversed. I ignore the man's right hand/arm for the most part. (It does come into play with various styles, but I'm deliberately ignoring that for the time being.) Instead, I always deliberately seek to achieve and maintain body contact...and fairly strongly, at that. I press myself forward into my leader's chest, and always seek to maintain that level of pressure. (It does vary, but again, I'm deliberately ignoring that right now.)

*I freely admit that this is based on several years old, very very basic "knowledge" and "understanding" of ballroom dancing.

Interesting. I can tell you that this a very beginner thing and I never heard any ballroom instructor tell me that body contact was incidental. In fact, quite the reverse, I was told the ultimate goal was to dance with full body contact but for various reasons, not the least of which was the usual comfort distance in North American/northern European cultures being waay higher than that of Latin American/southern European cultures, it wasn't taught from the get go. At a higher level, not only full body contact is encouraged, it is absolutely necessary to dance properly because they are elements (note that I am not saying patterns or sequences) you simply cannot perform without being in that position.

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 08:45 AM

Interesting. I can tell you that this a very beginner thing and I never heard any ballroom instructor tell me that body contact was incidental. In fact, quite the reverse, I was told the ultimate goal was to dance with full body contact but for various reasons, not the least of which was the usual comfort distance in North American/northern European cultures being waay higher than that of Latin American/southern European cultures, it wasn't taught from the get go. At a higher level, not only full body contact is encouraged, it is absolutely necessary to dance properly because they are elements (note that I am not saying patterns or sequences) you simply cannot perform without being in that position.

I agree with you, but it is interesting to note that in authoritative texts, such as my Society's technique (Howard) body contact in the hold isn't even mentioned between the covers of the book, except in one case dealing, specifically, with promenade position.

But I'm leaving it there, because this is off-topic, and I get enough complaints about trying to turn this into a BR forum already...

bordertangoman

01-04-2011, 08:46 AM

of course once you have crossed the Styx there is no going back.....

on JohnEm's last; I think the reason that apilado and milonguero are terms used more by non-BsAs is becuase even with a lean the pressure will fluctuate, and while dancing milonguero, there are times where the lady moves onto her own axis; that's why i think the distinction of weight or no-weight or axis or shared axis is all a bit of a red herring...

TangoRocks

01-04-2011, 08:56 AM

A lot of the ballroom dancers I know aren't comfortable with music that changes. They want a strong beat with a strict tempo that never varies, and they don't generally get the concept of playing with the music. One of the things I LOVE about AT is that we get so much fun, interesting music...and the leads dance to it! And, like, when the music changes, we change how we dance! What a concept. :D

By the way, I love this thread, because I was planning on dipping into AT coming from a BR background very soon, and I am finding lot of foods for thought in many of the posts. :D

To answer the above, I have noticed that too, and I can't stand it. Way back when I was first starting out, I would notice the changes in tempo, the "breaks" (to use a Lindy term) or "highlights" (what my ballroom instructor called them) of the music, and couldn't understand how people just danced through them like they weren't there. That included me, of course, at that time, because I didn't have, for the lack of a better word, the vocabulary to handle these changes. Fast forward a few years, I had enough knowledge/confidence that I could and would do what I could to move with and to the music, including, horror of horrors, actually stopping when I had to (i.e. when the music told me to stop.) And you know what? Since I started dancing my (ballroom) Tango, Foxtrot, Bolero etc. like that, I found out that I was a sought after lead, compared to the I-am-a-freight-train-I-dance-continuously-music-or-no-music style of dancers. More than a few ladies have told me they like dancing with me because of that, since they never know what's coming next, and it makes it an enjoyable challenge for them to dance with me.

I guess all I'm trying to say is, don't tar all ballroom dancers with the same brush--sure, lots and lots of newcomer ballroom dancers, and a proportion of advanced ones are pattern/beat oriented, but not all, and the ones who are, are sometimes like that because they have not been properly taught to appreciate the music. Musicality is very important to me, but I understand it isn't to everyone.

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 09:03 AM

I guess all I'm trying to say is, don't tar all ballroom dancers with the same brush.

Unfortunately, one of the biggest factors anyone making the change from BR to AT has to contend with is that that is exactly what the vocal minority will do. It's all part of the experience.

jennyisdancing

01-04-2011, 09:05 AM

And once again a discussion heads south into the minefield of technicalities.

Personally I think that a ballroom dancer can learn AT just fine, assuming an open mind and a good teacher who can explain the differences. The problems I've observed are with the dancers who enjoy the rules and structure of ballroom, don't adapt well to change, and feel uncomfortable with improvisation.

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 09:05 AM

on JohnEm's last; I think the reason that apilado and milonguero are terms used more by non-BsAs is becuase even with a lean the pressure will fluctuate, and while dancing milonguero, there are times where the lady moves onto her own axis; that's why i think the distinction of weight or no-weight or axis or shared axis is all a bit of a red herring...
I very much take your point BTM.
It's dynamic thing which is very easy to forget when you get into analysis mode.
You know I don't like the term shared weight mainly because it implies the wrong thing.
Watch a milonguero (there's that term again) and his lean dynamically varies
especially marked when he "tips" into commencing the walk.

Somehow though these things need explanations and we only have words here.
Buenos Aireans didn't need that specific vocabulary, they passed it on by showing,
feeling and practising.

dchester

01-04-2011, 09:06 AM

This is part of the problem of being new...everyone wants to help. Most of what we've gone to are practica, and most of our partners have been very gracious about it and truly helpful (for which i'm grateful, actually), but there are always the requisite few who think they are authorities just because they know more than we do...and just LOVE having someone beneath them on the totem pole to show off their knowledge to.
Practicas can be tricky if you are not looking for advice/feedback. The rules for most practicas allow for discussions, requests for advise, tutorials, etc.

However that stuff is not supposed to happen at a milonga (although I've seen it occasionally happen).

UKDancer

01-04-2011, 09:07 AM

Later Addition:
It pays to watch you UKD.
My comment about rotation was in regard to moving into promenade, not the whisk...

No, that won't do at all. A movement into a whisk is a movement into promenade, and the upper body movement (which is what I'm talking about) is the same. And armed with a weapon such as pedantry, why would I want to have recourse to something as feeble as misquoting?

Anyway, does it matter?

chanchan

01-04-2011, 09:28 AM

I have made my point, repeatedly. If it still isn't clear, I'm not going to bother trying to "fix" that any more.
I think it is quite clear now.
You emphasized an aspect which is actually important in AT, and I agreee that it can be introduced from the very beginning. It's just that I don't call it nuances: it is probably the only thing we don't agree.
Anyway, if you think it is not clear, you can post a video with someone you think is following the music.

bordertangoman

01-04-2011, 09:48 AM

I guess all I'm trying to say is, don't tar all ballroom dancers with the same brush--sure, lots and lots of newcomer ballroom dancers, and a proportion of advanced ones are pattern/beat oriented, but not all, and the ones who are, are sometimes like that because they have not been properly taught to appreciate the music. Musicality is very important to me, but I understand it isn't to everyone.

i dont think there is anything particularly wrong with anyone's musicality whatever their background; I learnt breaks from a jiver; it want about what I heard its more about; do I want to pause here, just because its the end of a movement. listening to carols; you can hear a pause at the end of the line far more clearly than you hear in a tango piece, because singers need to breathe. All that stuff ChanChan has said about beats is relevant only to a degree. I make quite a lot of steps off the beat because I'm aiming for an accent in the music thats coming up; or I'm just following the melody of the bandoneonist/violin/contrabass and ignoring the whoossisnames in the rest of the orchestra;
you get rhymeros, and from the blues dancers you get melodorios, and then there are the syncaperos who try and dance as many steps as there are notes on the page

dchester

01-04-2011, 09:51 AM

i dont think there is anything particularly wrong with anyone's musicality whatever their background; I learnt breaks from a jiver; it want about what I heard its more about; do I want to pause here, just because its the end of a movement. listening to carols; you can hear a pause at the end of the line far more clearly than you hear in a tango piece, because singers need to breathe. All that stuff ChanChan has said about beats is relevant only to a degree. I make quite a lot of steps off the beat because I'm aiming for an accent in the music thats coming up; or I'm just following the melody of the bandoneonist/violin/contrabass and ignoring the whoossisnames in the rest of the orchestra;
you get rhymeros, and from the blues dancers you get melodorios, and then there are the syncaperos who try and dance as many steps as there are notes on the page
Well said.

:cheers:

DerekWeb

01-04-2011, 10:29 AM

AngelHI should comment on this.

He seems to be highly skilled in BR and AT.

LoveTango

01-04-2011, 10:32 AM

Heh. I never actually realized there was a "cross system" being used at all when I started AT. I mean, my first teacher mentioned it, but I was so overwhelmed by information, and it was so peripheral to what I needed to be knowing at the time, that it just sort of went in one ear and out the other.

I remember coming back and after I had started lessons with my new teacher if he was going to teach me this "cross system" that I had read about. Lo and behold, he'd been doing it off and on all along. Huh! And that's when I ceased ever paying attention to it! (And because all I do is follow, I have that luxury. :))

Once I had a hard time dancing with a leader. He insisted that I must work on my "cross system". He was right that I had never taken any lesson on "cross system', but I knew that other leaders had been leading me that all along and I didn't feel the awkwardness. Seeing me unable to improve, this leader ceased asking me to dance.:)

bordertangoman

01-04-2011, 10:35 AM

AngelHI should comment on this.

He seems to be highly skilled in BR and AT.

have you noticed that if you take the 'and' out you get

BRAT! :lol:

bordertangoman

01-04-2011, 10:36 AM

Once I had a hard time dancing with a leader. He insisted that I must work on my "cross system". He was right that I had never taken any lesson on "cross system', but I knew that other leaders had been leading me that all along and I didn't feel the awkwardness. Seeing me unable to improve, this leader ceased asking me to dance.:)

he obviously got cross!

( groan)

LoveTango

01-04-2011, 10:49 AM

he obviously got cross!

( groan)
That's a good one.;) Frustrated for sure.

Zoopsia59

01-04-2011, 11:54 AM

it's my impression that the large majority of tangos (not valses or milongas) have a vocal component, and the singers often depart sharply from the underlying rhythm in ways that seldom are heard in, say, the great Tin Pan Alley standards often played in foxtrot. I wonder if this helps explain what seems an inability of some beginners to "hear the beat.”

That's an interesting point, and certainly the vocal track can add confusion. However, I don't use songs with vocals when I teach beginners, so that wasn't the issue (IME)

I also wouldn't say that the majority of tangos have a vocal track. Either that's not true, or DJ's I know try to play as much instrumental music as they can find.

Zoopsia59

01-04-2011, 11:56 AM

This is part of the problem of being new...everyone wants to help. Most of what we've gone to are practica, and most of our partners have been very gracious about it and truly helpful (for which i'm grateful, actually), but there are always the requisite few who think they are authorities just because they know more than we do...and just LOVE having someone beneath them on the totem pole to show off their knowledge to.

You left out the requisite few who know LESS than you do who think they are authorities and will show off their knowledge to... :rolleyes:

All these types will always be part of any tango scene.

Zoopsia59

01-04-2011, 12:01 PM

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 12:12 PM

I'm not sure that's the only reason; most tangos have an obvious rhythm despite the absence of drums. There's another hurdle.
Although La Cumparsita, Gallo Ciego and many other famous tangos are instrumentals, it's my impression that the large majority of tangos (not valses or milongas) have a vocal component, and the singers often depart sharply from the underlying rhythm in ways that seldom are heard in, say, the great Tin Pan Alley standards often played in foxtrot. There's nothing at all wrong with this -- jazz musicians play with the rhythm too. They just don't do it in ways that, to the newbie leader, seem to play havoc with the beat.
----snip----
These divergences between singer and orchestra don't occur frequently and teachers probably don't present them early to their beginning students, but they are part of Argentine tango and eventually they will need to be dealt with. I wonder if this helps explain what seems an inability of some beginners to "hear the beat.”
To follow up Zoopsia's post, just because it says Tango on the tin it doesn't
mean it's a tango to dance to. Many are concert tangos for listening.

There's apparently a special name I saw recently for those tangos with
vocals where the singer sings maybe the last third of the tune. Usually
to he blends with the orchestra that almost makes him (always a him)
an additional instrument. In other words it's about the song and not the
performer. These are usually danceable.

As they say, that's just my opinion.

dchester

01-04-2011, 12:58 PM

No, I'm curious. I don't want to start an argument, just seek clarification.

Writers like Christine Denniston say that the 'forward lean' of the posture is partly an illusion, because the dancer is still within the limit of their own balance, and the torso is actually more upright than a casual glance would suggest. She seems to suggest that this is still true in CE, but clearly, there are moves that depend upon support from a partner, but that it isn't the norm.

Is that somewhere about right, or is it a 'depends on the style' issue?
IMO, it's a style issue/preference. The lean as you described it is one of the attributes of Villa Urquiza style (which some here say doesn't exist, and other say the style exists but was named incorrectly).

Basically, the amount of lean, sharing of weight, "V", and offset, are personal preferences or style preferences in the embrace. Also, some will dance closer (or lean more) when walking, and open or adjust (like more V embrace) for figures. This is one of the many things that makes tango so interesting, and confusing.

Some choose to only dance with people whose personal style match their own, while others try to see how many different styles/preferences they can accommodate. The followers tend to have it more difficult in this regard, as more often than not, the follower ends up adapting to the leaders style (I'm not saying that's a rule, but that's what I see happening more often).

My opinion is that an awful lot of preferences get passed off as "rules".

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 01:18 PM

IMO, it's a style issue/preference. The lean as you described it is one of the attributes of Villa Urquiza style (which some here say doesn't exist, and other say the style exists but was named incorrectly).
I can't let this pass I'm afraid.

From Tango Voice:

Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza and Tango Estilo Milonguero within the Variation of Tango de Salon
Characteristics of Tango Estilo Milonguero have been described in detail in a previous post (http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/salon-style-tango-milonguero-style-tango-and-tango-de-salon-in-buenos-aires-and-in-north-america/). Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza differs from Tango Estilo Milonguero in various ways. The posture tends to be more upright and the embrace is looser in Estilo Villa Urquiza; that is, the arms are less extended around the partner, which allows for easier opening of the embrace for ochos and turns, whereas in Estilo Milonguero the embrace is closer (arms reach further past partner’s midline) and opened only slightly on the man’s left side to allow the woman’s movement to the cruzada that can come from a pivot (‘milonguero forward ocho’) or side rock (ocho cortado). Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza employs more footwork – foot touches, sandwiches, arrastres, dibujos – than are typically used in Tango Estilo Milonguero. However, when observing dancers on the pistas of the milongas of Buenos Aires, it is apparent that Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza and Tango Estilo Milonguero, as labeled and promoted by tango instructors, are just two points along the continuum of variation in several dimensions that exists among dancers in the milongas of Buenos Aires, as described previously (http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/salon-style-tango-milonguero-style-tango-and-tango-de-salon-in-buenos-aires-and-in-north-america/). Today at any given milonga in Buenos Aires, there is a range of stylistic variation among the dancers. Nevertheless, this variation still occurs within the limits set by the codes and customs of the milongas (http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/codes-and-customs-of-the-milongas-of-buenos-aires-the-basics/).

Full article here: http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/tango-estilo-villa-urquiza/

Most practitioners of VU are upright. It seems to be the modern teaching
and performing establishment interpretation of one of the Golden Age
salon styles.

As for rules:

My opinion is that an awful lot of preferences get passed off as "rules".
There have to be some for harmonious co-existence, and the most important
I'd sum up as awareness of & consideration for others.

dchester

01-04-2011, 01:58 PM

I can't let this pass I'm afraid.

From Tango Voice:

Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza and Tango Estilo Milonguero within the Variation of Tango de Salon
Characteristics of Tango Estilo Milonguero have been described in detail in a previous post (http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/salon-style-tango-milonguero-style-tango-and-tango-de-salon-in-buenos-aires-and-in-north-america/). Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza differs from Tango Estilo Milonguero in various ways. The posture tends to be more upright and the embrace is looser in Estilo Villa Urquiza; that is, the arms are less extended around the partner, which allows for easier opening of the embrace for ochos and turns, whereas in Estilo Milonguero the embrace is closer (arms reach further past partner’s midline) and opened only slightly on the man’s left side to allow the woman’s movement to the cruzada that can come from a pivot (‘milonguero forward ocho’) or side rock (ocho cortado). Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza employs more footwork – foot touches, sandwiches, arrastres, dibujos – than are typically used in Tango Estilo Milonguero. However, when observing dancers on the pistas of the milongas of Buenos Aires, it is apparent that Tango Estilo Villa Urquiza and Tango Estilo Milonguero, as labeled and promoted by tango instructors, are just two points along the continuum of variation in several dimensions that exists among dancers in the milongas of Buenos Aires, as described previously (http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/salon-style-tango-milonguero-style-tango-and-tango-de-salon-in-buenos-aires-and-in-north-america/). Today at any given milonga in Buenos Aires, there is a range of stylistic variation among the dancers. Nevertheless, this variation still occurs within the limits set by the codes and customs of the milongas (http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/codes-and-customs-of-the-milongas-of-buenos-aires-the-basics/).

Full article here: http://tangovoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/tango-estilo-villa-urquiza/

Most practitioners of VU are upright. It seems to be the modern teaching
and performing establishment interpretation of one of the Golden Age
salon styles.

As for rules:

There have to be some for harmonious co-existence, and the most important
I'd sum up as awareness of & consideration for others.
I agree with article you posted that the embrace is looser and more upright for VU style, when compared to milonguero style. I also think this is consistent with "the lean is an illusion" type of embrace, which was why I stated what I I did in a prior post. If I understand your point, you seem to be saying that more upright equals completely upright, which I don't agree with. I'm sure there are some VU style dancers that may be completely upright (and certainly most of them are for figures), but in any case, I agree with the article you quoted.

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 04:16 PM

Practicas can be tricky if you are not looking for advice/feedback. The rules for most practicas allow for discussions, requests for advise, tutorials, etc.

However that stuff is not supposed to happen at a milonga (although I've seen it occasionally happen).

I'm open to advice/feedback if it's coming from someone who knows what they're talking about. In some cases, I can tell the difference, but in others I can't due to my lack of experience. In some cases, it's a matter of style and personal preference, but they expect me to do what they say because they're the only one who does it right. Of course, I just smile and say thank you and do the best I can.

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 04:19 PM

By the way, I love this thread, because I was planning on dipping into AT coming from a BR background very soon, and I am finding lot of foods for thought in many of the posts. :D

To answer the above, I have noticed that too, and I can't stand it. Way back when I was first starting out, I would notice the changes in tempo, the "breaks" (to use a Lindy term) or "highlights" (what my ballroom instructor called them) of the music, and couldn't understand how people just danced through them like they weren't there. That included me, of course, at that time, because I didn't have, for the lack of a better word, the vocabulary to handle these changes. Fast forward a few years, I had enough knowledge/confidence that I could and would do what I could to move with and to the music, including, horror of horrors, actually stopping when I had to (i.e. when the music told me to stop.) And you know what? Since I started dancing my (ballroom) Tango, Foxtrot, Bolero etc. like that, I found out that I was a sought after lead, compared to the I-am-a-freight-train-I-dance-continuously-music-or-no-music style of dancers. More than a few ladies have told me they like dancing with me because of that, since they never know what's coming next, and it makes it an enjoyable challenge for them to dance with me.

I guess all I'm trying to say is, don't tar all ballroom dancers with the same brush--sure, lots and lots of newcomer ballroom dancers, and a proportion of advanced ones are pattern/beat oriented, but not all, and the ones who are, are sometimes like that because they have not been properly taught to appreciate the music. Musicality is very important to me, but I understand it isn't to everyone.

I have an ex-partner who belligerently insisted that you must continue dancing through the breaks, not DANCE the break like swing dancers, etc., do. He was obnoxious in many ways.

bastet

01-04-2011, 05:42 PM

Posture, frame, where their weight is over their feet, how they hear the music, how they to move to the music, how they connect/follow/lead. There was something else I had in mind, but I got distracted by something and can't remember what it was...

A lot of it is the fact that people seem to come into it from ballroom and don't consider themselves as complete and utter beginners. They think they know what they're doing but just need a bit of a different style and some new vocabulary...when nothing could be further from the truth.

what Peaches said...

I did almost 12 years of ballroom before I really switched over to AT. There are differences in the way the walk works, for a start, along with all the other things mentioned...long discussions have been had over that here...

It's a difficult unlearning process and with almost no instant gratification, but if you care to, you can do it.

I suspect some of the problems you have had in the other thread with acquiring dances will start to go away the more your progress with it.

JohnEm

01-04-2011, 05:57 PM

I agree with article you posted that the embrace is looser and more upright for VU style, when compared to milonguero style. I also think this is consistent with "the lean is an illusion" type of embrace, which was why I stated what I I did in a prior post. If I understand your point, you seem to be saying that more upright equals completely upright, which I don't agree with. I'm sure there are some VU style dancers that may be completely upright (and certainly most of them are for figures), but in any case, I agree with the article you quoted.
And I don't want to start a "splitting hairs" thread!
As the article said this is a point on a line of continuum - or something like that.

Looking at them they are mainly visually upright, they don't seem to lean
on each other in the milonguero way which would be difficult as they aren't
in line. But it's tango so the weight is biased forward and that seems
to result in some quite strange body shapes from the ladies.

Milonguero is the comparison of course and we can argue for ever about
the extent of the lean and individual control of balance etc etc. There is
little doubt when watching Tete that at the point of "Tipping" he couldn't
recover statically but then he has no need to as his foot is about to project
forward and into the ground. It's the implication of weight loading (apilar)
that's the illusion - the show people have exaggerated it for visual effect
which works for practised choreography but not for social dancing.

bastet

01-04-2011, 06:57 PM

Uh...what you're describing is (I think, based on the description) a linear back boleo. IMO, if you're being taught that already...find another teacher.

i'd agree with that too...learn some social repertoire first...

Steve Pastor

01-04-2011, 06:59 PM

bastet

01-04-2011, 07:00 PM

Once again: this is when I'm being led. Not in class.

that's too bad, as Zoops said...

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 07:03 PM

that's too bad, as Zoops said...

Or maybe not, since it's showing me something I need to work on that I didn't know about before I was led in that.

dchester

01-04-2011, 07:09 PM

And I don't want to start a "splitting hairs" thread!
Umm, OK

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Zoopsia59

01-04-2011, 07:09 PM

Or maybe not, since it's showing me something I need to work on that I didn't know about before I was led in that.

You're one of those "silver lining" kinda people aren't you? :D

That's actually a good thing because there will be quite a few clouds and some heavy rains during your tango journey.

bastet

01-04-2011, 07:16 PM

What I would say is that surely there is a fundamental difference about the way that a follower moved backward in tango, in that the foot goes, and the body doesn't (until its movement can no longer be denied). It feels to me as though the followers body goes back to make the weight transfer, at the extent of the stride. It's almost as though only one leg is working at a time (the free leg, thing), whereas a BR backward movement has the body move with the foot, but the weight is still supported (until it can no longer be) by the standing leg, which is still working hard, using the knee joint and ankle in a very dynamic way.

.

exactly, and this is what makes a ballroom walk not work for tango and makes for problems with people trying to just cross over with no understanding of the technical differences they have to learn to make it feel like tango and not ballroom. the BR people I've ever tried to explain this difference to couldn't' make the switch. It's not easy or immediate.

bastet

01-04-2011, 07:21 PM

Or maybe not, since it's showing me something I need to work on that I didn't know about before I was led in that.

there's plenty of other ways to work on the free leg issue. I hoep you can find some leads who are willing to actually help and foster you and not just throw you around. Those aren't "practice" type movements.

good luck!

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 07:53 PM

You're one of those "silver lining" kinda people aren't you? :D

That's actually a good thing because there will be quite a few clouds and some heavy rains during your tango journey.

Well, I can bitch and complain that someone is leading me in something I'm not following, or I can fix the problem on my end. I can't control what other people do, but I can control what I do! :)

there's plenty of other ways to work on the free leg issue. I hoep you can find some leads who are willing to actually help and foster you and not just throw you around. Those aren't "practice" type movements.

Remember, it's easy to make snap judgments based on what you read here. This particular lead is actually quite good and a popular leader. I follow most of what he does, so he pushes the envelope a little and tries harder and harder things. Most of them work. When I miss, he either lets it go or kindly lets me know what I should have done (then apologizes and says something like, "I don't usually correct people on the dance floor, but you've gotten so good so fast I couldn't resist").

In the case of the backward linear boleo (did I get that right?), the first time he led it I realized a little too late what it was (having seen him lead it successfully with others). I asked, "Should I have swung my leg back and kicked there?" And he said yes, and explained, along with a sideways one that's similar. He practiced both with me a couple times and I got it--but in any case, it is a good lesson that I need to relax my legs a bit. I'm not going to sit here and agree while you all assume this guy is a horrible dancer because he led me something I didn't follow.

I've learned a lot in a short time by dancing with leaders who don't stick to the bare basics. This includes leaders who are instructors or have just been around for years, and they seem to think I can handle it, especially since, you know, I'm doing it. And they say things like "Good!" every time I follow something challenging or whatever. I also spend time practicing walks and basics, and DH and I are taking our first private tomorrow with a very traditional instructor so we can make sure we get a good foundation.

Steve Pastor

01-04-2011, 08:20 PM

backward linear boleo (did I get that right?),

Personally, I would leave out "backward", since I can't visualize a "forward linear boleo".

You told us pages ago this wasn't in a lesson, and I see no problem in working with someone at a practica to learn something new. After all, it's a practica.

I would add, however, that, if done right, the leg going up is mostly the result of the leg being free to continue the momentum generated in both bodies, then abruptly halted - except for that "free leg" which swing back and upwards because of the way it is "hinged" at the hip and knee.

The "teaching moment" can be mostly about the free leg being free, more than "learning the move" itself. (and, yes, you did get that)

One possible drawback is that women learn "moves" rather than technique, making it difficult for guys like me who are hoping that the woman's techinque will make things possible that she doesn't even realize she could do.

Ampster

01-04-2011, 08:31 PM

Personally, I would leave out "backward", since I can't visualize a "forward linear boleo".

I can visualize that. It's called a kick to the groin!:?

twnkltoz

01-04-2011, 08:33 PM

Personally, I would leave out "backward", since I can't visualize a "forward linear boleo".

You told us pages ago this wasn't in a lesson, and I see no problem in working with someone at a practica to learn something new. After all, it's a practica.

I would add, however, that, if done right, the leg going up is mostly the result of the leg being free to continue the momentum generated in both bodies, then abruptly halted - except for that "free leg" which swing back and upwards because of the way it is "hinged" at the hip and knee.

The "teaching moment" can be mostly about the free leg being free, more than "learning the move" itself. (and, yes, you did get that)

One possible drawback is that women learn "moves" rather than technique, making it difficult for guys like me who are hoping that the woman's techinque will make things possible that she doesn't even realize she could do.

I completely agree on the last paragraph, which is why I generally object to partners teaching each other at dances. I have to "fix" my dance students all the time because someone (who didn't know what they were doing) tried to teach them on the dance floor.

bastet

01-04-2011, 09:15 PM

Well, I can bitch and complain that someone is leading me in something I'm not following, or I can fix the problem on my end. I can't control what other people do, but I can control what I do! :)

Remember, it's easy to make snap judgments based on what you read here. This particular lead is actually quite good and a popular leader. I follow most of what he does, so he pushes the envelope a little and tries harder and harder things. Most of them work. When I miss, he either lets it go or kindly lets me know what I should have done (then apologizes and says something like, "I don't usually correct people on the dance floor, but you've gotten so good so fast I couldn't resist").

In the case of the backward linear boleo (did I get that right?), the first time he led it I realized a little too late what it was (having seen him lead it successfully with others). I asked, "Should I have swung my leg back and kicked there?" And he said yes, and explained, along with a sideways one that's similar. He practiced both with me a couple times and I got it--but in any case, it is a good lesson that I need to relax my legs a bit. I'm not going to sit here and agree while you all assume this guy is a horrible dancer because he led me something I didn't follow.

I've learned a lot in a short time by dancing with leaders who don't stick to the bare basics. This includes leaders who are instructors or have just been around for years, and they seem to think I can handle it, especially since, you know, I'm doing it. And they say things like "Good!" every time I follow something challenging or whatever. I also spend time practicing walks and basics, and DH and I are taking our first private tomorrow with a very traditional instructor so we can make sure we get a good foundation.

no offense intended. sorry you took my remark poorly. I only said it because I went through much the same scenario 6 years ago....

bastet

01-04-2011, 09:20 PM

I can visualize that. It's called a kick to the groin!:?
well- you can do forward linear boleos that aren't kicks in the groin and they are kind of fun...he just has to send your leg there.

UKDancer

01-05-2011, 02:26 AM

... and this is what makes a ballroom walk not work for tango and makes for problems with people trying to just cross over with no understanding of the technical differences they have to learn to make it feel like tango and not ballroom. the BR people I've ever tried to explain this difference to couldn't' make the switch. It's not easy or immediate.

No one denies the difference, or at least, I don't think they do.

But hey, if they are 'trying to cross over with no understanding' the teacher has failed to actually teach what it is to walk backwards in tango as a follower. They may have made the attempt, but they have failed.

In my own training (and you must expect someone from my background to value this process highly) teaching ability is a fundamental and equal part of the training syllabus, along with dance performance/demonstration ability and an in-depth understanding of and the ability to demonstrate correct technique. If you can't do all three to the prescribed 'professional standard' you don't pass (let alone get a good grade), and a significant part of every teaching qualification examination I have ever done was based on discussion around questions like 'How would you teach a backward walk for the first time', or 'What common faults have you experienced in xxxxxx, and what strategies do you use to overcome learners' problems'.

In a parallel universe, tango would be a mainstream dance. It would be taught by people who had been trained to teach (some have the gift naturally, but don't necessarily know how to use their gift to the best advantage of their pupils). The professional dance bodies, taking tango seriously (and you can see what a flight of fancy this is), would long have sorted out the extent to which, and the reasons why, tango can't be taught in the conventional model typically found in dance schools for, say, any of the BR styles, but there would be an accumulated body of knowledge and experience on which fledgling teachers could draw, so that they were not presented with pupils whose learning difficulties they could not address.

What does make tango feel like tango and not BR tango? It's a rhetorical question to which I seek no answer, but rather to say that when those 'problem' BR pupils were, themselves, beginning BR pupils, everything they did on the floor looked the same. You couldn't distinguish one style from another, they hadn't learned how to apply the subtle technique differences that gave the 'flavour' of each dance. Over time, if they kept at it, they would be guided by (usually) trained teachers, and in their own practise and performance would develop their dancing to whatever level they wished or were capable of. Surely, it is the same (with differences in approach and emphasis) in tango: you start at the beginning, and you progress or give up.

If a teacher finds that half of his new class have obviously danced before, whether it be modern jive, salsa (very common) or BR or any of the other club style dances, he should be pleased: pleased that they are putting money into his hands, pleased that they are already used to moving to music, pleased that they already have some concept of partner movement, pleased that they already have, to some degree, a whole raft of skills that can be taken, adapted, developed and honed into good, solid, tango competence.

My limited experience is that they look rather crestfallen, and I've yet to find one who can address my learning needs appropriately. By and large, what I have learned so far has been learned from my peers: the other beginners, or those who hang around beginner classes the better to show off their erudition (I'm sure that's not why they go, but it sure feels that way), and on the floor of the practica and the occasional milonga. Actually, it has been a process not dramatically different from that which obtained in the Golden Age, when there weren't any teachers.

Perhaps we should go back to that!

And BTW, I'd be the last person to suggest that anything worthwhile can be achieved on the dancefloor easily or immediately.

Joe

01-05-2011, 06:36 AM

Really ??... On the contrary, without the use of arm/hand thru body connection, is fairly constant, particularly thru Prom. positions .
One would be virtually impossible without the use .
Not really. The arms are used as a reference point, but not directly for leading and following. Do you feel that the frame should be different in closed position vs. PP?

You've been around a long time; you can't possibly have never seen coaches use (or used yourself) the "look ma, no hands" lead-follow exercise with students to wean them off using their arms.

Peaches

01-05-2011, 07:03 AM

Oh, hell. I've read about variations on that theme multiple times here on D-F.

Peaches

01-05-2011, 07:14 AM

But hey, if they are 'trying to cross over with no understanding' the teacher has failed to actually teach what it is to walk backwards in tango as a follower. They may have made the attempt, but they have failed. Because, of course, if there is an issue going on it must always be on the part of the inadequate AT teacher...since there is no standardized body of knowledge and testing and syllabi and yada yada. :roll:

In a parallel universe, tango would be a mainstream dance. It would be taught by people who had been trained to teach (some have the gift naturally, but don't necessarily know how to use their gift to the best advantage of their pupils). The professional dance bodies, taking tango seriously (and you can see what a flight of fancy this is), would long have sorted out the extent to which, and the reasons why, tango can't be taught in the conventional model typically found in dance schools for, say, any of the BR styles, but there would be an accumulated body of knowledge and experience on which fledgling teachers could draw, so that they were not presented with pupils whose learning difficulties they could not address.God.forbid.

...pleased that they already have, to some degree, a whole raft of skills that can be taken, adapted, developed and honed into good, solid, tango competence.

My limited experience is that they look rather crestfallen, and I've yet to find one who can address my learning needs appropriately.

Perhaps because a lot of people seem unable/unwilling to really learn what the differences are, to analyze them, and to apply them. They seem to choose to pick up some "new vocabulary" and leave it at that. Even little things--where and how the man should place his right arm, where elbows are pointing--things that any accomplished dancer should be able to notice and pick up on, get ignored. Even when this is addressed by the teacher. I have SEEN it happen, multiple times. Nope...up comes that nice, big ballroom frame! *facepalm* It's something that people seem to dabble in, which is fine, but realize that if there's just dabbling going on there is no real honing of anythign going on.

As for you...perhaps you get that look of dismay because you're walking in with such an incredibly large chip on your shoulder??? Perhaps because, just maybe, they are actually good teachers who have learned that it's easier to start someone from scratch with AT than to try to "beat the BR" out of someone's dancing enough to get it to look and feel like AT, especiallywhen they're walking in with a chip on their shoulder? Good lord. That chip reads loud and clear, halfway around the world, through the internet.

You've talked about classes. How your needs aren't being met in classes. Have you tried taking private lessons? They might meet your needs a lot better; I know they always did for me. Sure, they're more expensive, but you get so much more information.

Peaches

01-05-2011, 07:21 AM

well- you can do forward linear boleos that aren't kicks in the groin and they are kind of fun...he just has to send your leg there.Yup.

JohnEm

01-05-2011, 07:58 AM

Actually, it has been a process not dramatically different from that which obtained in the Golden Age, when there weren't any teachers.

Perhaps we should go back to that!

And BTW, I'd be the last person to suggest that anything worthwhile can be achieved on the dancefloor easily or immediately.

Oh Peaches, cut him some slack - he's beginning to see the light!

JohnEm

01-05-2011, 08:23 AM

It's the implication of weight loading (apilar)
that's the illusion - the show people have exaggerated it for visual effect
which works for practised choreography but not for social dancing. It is not an illusion if you dance apilado. And it is danced socially. And it does "work".

Milonguero dancing is generally regarded as apilado, some people using
the two words interchangeably. And the lean and resultant force (not weight)
changes dynamically. Of course it works but there remains a practical
and social limit to both the lean and the force. The illusion I meant was
of being apilar, "piled on", because there is no weight imposed by one
partner on another.

But I'm referring to the more exaggerated lean which is sometimes adopted
in shows and in poses for dramatic and visual effect. And I have danced
on occasion with a partner who can really provide a very strong force:
I still don't take her weight but I do return her force. But such a strong,
maybe over strong, connection seems to become restrictive in itself.
I suppose it depends on what it is you want to dance.

Dave Bailey

01-05-2011, 08:52 AM

In my own training (and you must expect someone from my background to value this process highly) teaching ability is a fundamental and equal part of the training syllabus, along with dance performance/demonstration ability and an in-depth understanding of and the ability to demonstrate correct technique. If you can't do all three to the prescribed 'professional standard' you don't pass (let alone get a good grade), and a significant part of every teaching qualification examination I have ever done was based on discussion around questions like 'How would you teach a backward walk for the first time', or 'What common faults have you experienced in xxxxxx, and what strategies do you use to overcome learners' problems'.
That all sounds completely reasonable to me - God knows there's almost no focus on teaching technique in most Tango classes. And as for communications skills... :rolleyes:

In a parallel universe, tango would be a mainstream dance.
To be fair, tango is a mainstream dance - it's just a parallel mainstream to the Ballroom world :)

It would be taught by people who had been trained to teach (some have the gift naturally, but don't necessarily know how to use their gift to the best advantage of their pupils).
Cor, that's crazy talk that is. Don't you know that everyone born in the sounds of BsAs bells has an innate gift for Tango teaching? Failing that, everyone with a ponytail and a name ending in "o" is a good bet.

The professional dance bodies, taking tango seriously (and you can see what a flight of fancy this is), would long have sorted out the extent to which, and the reasons why, tango can't be taught in the conventional model typically found in dance schools for, say, any of the BR styles, but there would be an accumulated body of knowledge and experience on which fledgling teachers could draw, so that they were not presented with pupils whose learning difficulties they could not address.
Within reason, that sounds pretty good. The devil would be in the details.

If a teacher finds that half of his new class have obviously danced before, whether it be modern jive, salsa (very common) or BR or any of the other club style dances, he should be pleased: pleased that they are putting money into his hands, pleased that they are already used to moving to music, pleased that they already have some concept of partner movement, pleased that they already have, to some degree, a whole raft of skills that can be taken, adapted, developed and honed into good, solid, tango competence.
Yes. If nothing else, partner dancers are at least vaguely used to things like the concept of lead and follow.

Most of the people I teach are from a modern jive background. There are problems, of course, but that doesn't mean I can't impart technique to them, it simply means they have a shared approach which typically requires common solutions and emphasis when teaching.

UKDancer

01-05-2011, 08:56 AM

That [all] sounds completely reasonable to me

Hell, don't go agreeing with me, I'm a pariah!

Dave Bailey

01-05-2011, 08:56 AM

Because, of course, if there is an issue going on it must always be on the part of the inadequate AT teacher...since there is no standardized body of knowledge and testing and syllabi and yada yada. :roll:
Well, he's got a point. I'm against too much standardisation - I think it can stifle innovation and creativity in dance evolution - but that doesn't mean a syllabus (or at least a structured approach) is automatically evil.

Admittedly, the current ones offered by DVIDA etc. are horribe, but that doesn't mean the concept itself is bad, it just means the implementation so far has been poor.

As for you...perhaps you get that look of dismay because you're walking in with such an incredibly large chip on your shoulder???
UKDancer did have some rough edges earlier on, it's true :) - but I think he's proven willing to adapt his views.

Dave Bailey

01-05-2011, 08:56 AM

Hell, don't go agreeing with me, I'm a paraiah!
That's pariah, you 'orrible little man. :p

UKDancer

01-05-2011, 09:05 AM

To be fair, tango is a mainstream dance - it's just a parallel mainstream to the Ballroom world :)

Yeah, I know. Kind of. But consider this: In my area there is a website which lists social dance events across three counties. I just did a count, in the three months to the end of March it lists about six hundred Ballroom / Latin / Sequence dances. In the same area, it lists eight milongas. I keep a close eye on the local scene, and I don't think that there any that I don't know about, and it lists them all.

And I know that this is off topic, but in my teaching society, I know that BR only accounts for 5% of the revenue of the society - it has become almost marginal, compared with goodness-knows-what (Zumba, probably), so that ratio 75:1 is startling for a 'mainstream' dance.

And I can spell pariah! I was just laughing so much, I couldn't type it first time around. ;)

UKDancer

01-05-2011, 09:25 AM

...the current ones offered by DVIDA etc. are horribe, but that doesn't mean the concept itself is bad, it just means the implementation so far has been poor.

The tango syllabus of my society, while being far from ideal, does contain some quite reasonable propositions, such as these:

No matter how long a couple have been adopting the dance, it's never performed the same way to the same piece of music ... that's the magic of Tango!
At times you will see [...] different foot positions performed by the man and lady. This is good improvisation as there are no set rules when moving in this dance.
The essence of Tango is the couple maintaining contact throughout all movements. You are now in the moment at that moment and become one!
and one more (I like this one):

It is impossible to describe tango in a few words. Tango is not just a dance of a couple. It is the way that two bodies are moving in absolute harmony, becoming one body with four legs. Above all, tango is a way of walking ...
But there's nothing like having an open mind.

dchester

01-05-2011, 10:02 AM

well- you can do forward linear boleos that aren't kicks in the groin and they are kind of fun...he just has to send your leg there.
I've never worked up the courage to try it, as it would need to be done right the first time.

;)

bordertangoman

01-05-2011, 10:52 AM

That's pariah, you 'orrible little man. :p

And I am a Pharaoh's uncle

Zoopsia59

01-05-2011, 12:11 PM

Yeah, I know. Kind of. But consider this: In my area there is a website which lists social dance events across three counties. I just did a count, in the three months to the end of March it lists about six hundred Ballroom / Latin / Sequence dances. In the same area, it lists eight milongas. I keep a close eye on the local scene, and I don't think that there any that I don't know about, and it lists them all.

There is a website like that here that covers several states in the immediate area (I'm near the borders of two neighboring states, so it isn't unusual for people to go to other states to dance) and most of the Tango events don't get listed on it. There is a separate site that lists regional Tango events. If someone only went to the "Ballroom" site, they'd never know about the vast majority of the Tango events. They would know about folk dancing though, so its not just a ballroom site.

Not saying that is true of the site you mention, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are Tango events that never make it to that site.

Zoopsia59

01-05-2011, 12:21 PM

But hey, if they are 'trying to cross over with no understanding' the teacher has failed to actually teach what it is to walk backwards in tango as a follower. They may have made the attempt, but they have failed.

Are you saying that in order to teach someone who has had ballroom, an AT teacher must have had ballroom also to know the difference? Does that mean the AT teacher should have also had all the other various movement forms in order to explain the difference? And what about crossing over the other way? Should all Ballroom teachers have a clear understanding of AT in order to teach those who learn AT 1st?

I hope that's not what you are saying!

Shouldn't it be enough to be able to see that what the student is doing is not correct for the dance being instructed and to instruct them on what IS correct? Wouldn't a skilled ballroom dancer be able to understand at that point that it is different and how it is different from what they've learned for ballroom?

Being able to say "This is how it's different from what you learned from ballroom" might certainly shorten that specific process somewhat, but it shouldn't be necessary overall.

I would hope that most AT teachers talk about the embrace, posture and technique of connecting while moving in the FIRST lesson. Right away, the BR student should be pondering... "Hey... that's not what I learned in BR and it feels different somehow". The only reason it might get overlooked and remain uncorrected for too long would be if the teacher doesn't address that stuff early for EVERYONE. But in that case, the ballroom students wouldn't be the only ones doing it badly.

Captain Jep

01-05-2011, 02:38 PM

Well the only thing I find strange is that BR isnt taught the way tango is. I mean , you are trying to dance together arent you? ;)

Steve Pastor

01-05-2011, 05:15 PM

Forward linear boleo, eh?
Just walking back to my office with a full cup of water as someone cut the corner. I let my leg go out in front of me to take the momentum to keep the water from spilling. (Yes, years of dance training do come in handy!)
Forward linear boleo?
(Jeez, I hope not. I get the feeling it wasn't pretty.)

I can't articulate it very well, but there is a whip like acceleration to the boleo that is not possible in a forward direction because the knee isn't hinged that way.
So, is there then a sideways linear boleo?

twnkltoz

01-05-2011, 05:25 PM

waltzgirl

01-05-2011, 05:29 PM

Well the only thing I find strange is that BR isnt taught the way tango is. I mean , you are trying to dance together arent you? ;)

Yes, but as the discussion so far has demonstrated, what "together" means in ballroom is different from what it means in AT.

The other thing to keep in mind is that "ballroom" is not one dance. It is nine or ten different dances (or more if you count some social dances, like nightclub 2-step or hustle that many BRers (at least in the US) learn and dance regularly). Each one has its own technique, though of course many of them share substantial amounts of technique as well. Each one has its own relationship of movement to music and its own character of expression.

Wanderer2

01-05-2011, 05:51 PM

This guy also led me in a sideways movement that I assume would also be called a linear bolero. It started with back ochos, and then he sent my momentum sideways so my leg would swing out to the side.

Milonguero ochos = swinging/pendulum ochos, NO turning of the hips

bastet

01-05-2011, 06:10 PM

I've never worked up the courage to try it, as it would need to be done right the first time.

;)

I'd hazard to say that as long as the lady doesn't apply any extra force (ie- a boleo is not a kick) then they aren't really that hard or that dreadful, but I have only ever had them led by someone I trust who knew exactly how much to give. And in close embrace, you'd have some trouble giving them tons of momentum anyway, I think. My leg never swung near enough anywhere dangerous, since all he did was give me a small stop to cause the leg to swing through his...it doesn't take much. Granted, I have heard of ladies adding their own momentum, but really, as long as you don't they don't have to be a large movement and are kind of fun.

They wouldn't be too hard to do with your wife, I'd think, since she's quite a bit shorter than you are... :)

tangobro

01-05-2011, 06:32 PM

well- you can do forward linear boleos that aren't kicks in the groin and they are kind of fun...he just has to send your leg there.

Jorge Torres teaches it in this milonga workshop as a result of a circular impulse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOQkSN62TKQ

bastet

01-05-2011, 07:03 PM

Jorge Torres teaches it in this milonga workshop as a result of a circular impulse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOQkSN62TKQ

that's cute (sorry- being girly there)...I've had it done mainly as a forward and back, but I like that one too...

UKDancer

01-06-2011, 02:34 AM

Not saying that is true of the site you mention, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are Tango events that never make it to that site.

Well it would be nice to think so, but I have not found any. There is a group based at Birmingham University that hold informal dances, somewhere between a practica and a milonga, but judging by their own website (just checked) they have just one in January and the next isn't until March.

As you say, there are other groups slightly further away, but the three counties I refer to includes the whole of Birmingham, UK's 2nd largest city, which is surrounded by a huge area of urban sprawl and a high population. To the best of my knowledge, Birmingham has just three specialist teachers: Lloyd & Sandra (the longest established), the University group and a chap called Mike who also teaches in Leamington a medium sized town in the next county. Leamington also has the region's only other specialist teachers (Ricardo & Su), and there is also a non-specialist place in Solihull (Bardello) that has a weekly class and a monthly Milonga, where 'Next Generation Tango' is on offer.

You have to go to Leicester to the North or Cheltenham to the South for any more, and their social events are few and far between too.

For all the apparent commitment of the members of the local tango community, it is far smaller than I expected it to be, and everyone who dances socially expects to have to travel quite a long way to be able to dance regularly.

As the topic of crossing over from BR to tango is the subject of this discussion, it is worth repeating that here, the ratio of BR to tango social events is at least 75:1 on my quick survey. The website I mentioned does not cover more than a small proportion of the available BR dancing - I can't give you numbers, but I personally know of quite a few in my own area that don't make it onto the site, whereas its coverage of tango seems to be actually complete. In all probability the ratio is 100s:1, so I do wonder how reasonable a descriptor 'mainstream' is for tango.

After the initial enthusiasm of a new class has worn off, I can readily see that quite a few people would give up on the dance and 'go back', simply because there is very nearly no dancing to be had. Whereas, they can dance BR every night of the week, and locally.

UKDancer

01-06-2011, 02:48 AM

Are you saying that in order to teach someone who has had ballroom, an AT teacher must have had ballroom also to know the difference? Does that mean the AT teacher should have also had all the other various movement forms in order to explain the difference? And what about crossing over the other way? Should all Ballroom teachers have a clear understanding of AT in order to teach those who learn AT 1st?

I hope that's not what you are saying!

No, I didn't say that. But I think it would be a good thing if more teachers from a conventional dance school/studio background took up the dance to a reasonable standard and taught it properly. BR dancers from that learning background would then naturally gravitate towards such teachers, and perhaps many of the cross over problems would largely disappear.

Please don't think that I am advocating changing or sanitising the dance at all: I'm not. But I happen to hold the personal view that the established model of dance teacher training can be adapted (although no one has managed it yet) to suit the particular needs of tango, perfectly well.

And it's no answer to say that 'it's so different' that you couldn't have them under the same roof: it's just not true. I was teaching Samba and Foxtrot last night, to the same class, and two more different dances you would struggle to find. We do it all the time.

And, briefly, on your other point: I think that it would be an excellent idea if BR & Latin teachers were expected, as a matter of course, to have had some exposure to tango. It would do them nothing but good.

Subliminal

01-06-2011, 03:01 AM

And, briefly, on your other point: I think that it would be an excellent idea if BR & Latin teachers were expected, as a matter of course, to have had some exposure to tango. It would do them nothing but good.

Couldn't hurt!

I can't remember who said it... maybe it was Angel? But someone on this forum who teaches multiple styles said something along the lines of, "There are three dances that you can learn everything you ever need to know about partner dancing from. Argentine Tango for connection, Int'l Foxtrot for movement through space, and Bolero for internal movement."

UKDancer

01-06-2011, 03:05 AM

Couldn't hurt!

I can't remember who said it... maybe it was Angel? But someone on this forum who teaches multiple styles said something along the lines of, "There are three dances that you can learn everything you ever need to know about partner dancing from. Argentine Tango for connection, Int'l Foxtrot for movement through space, and Bolero for internal movement."

I wouldn't argue with that, substituting Rumba for outside the US (but the same dance, for practical purposes).

Dave Bailey

01-06-2011, 04:43 AM

Are you saying that in order to teach someone who has had ballroom, an AT teacher must have had ballroom also to know the difference?
I wouldn't say "must have had", but I reckon it would help.

If you understand where your students are coming from, surely that makes it easier to solve the specific problems they encounter?

If I were teaching AT to a class of mainly salsa dancers, I think it'd be useful to know at least a bit about salsa. Not essential, but if would help - for example, you'd tell them to stop the hip motion, to not be so driven by the beat, and so on.

That said, you can get too caught up in a "and this is different... and so is this... and this too..." trap; you're not there to teach the differences, you're there to teach the dance. So comparisons with other dances should be few and far between.

Dave Bailey

01-06-2011, 04:46 AM

I can't articulate it very well, but there is a whip like acceleration to the boleo that is not possible in a forward direction because the knee isn't hinged that way.
Boleos can be done straight-legged - in both directions.

So, is there then a sideways linear boleo?
Why not? I teach this as a "pulse" movement - basically, the sideways movement of the follower's leg after a sidestep is led, but before the change of weight. I use it to demonstrate what you can do to mark the beat, but I suppose you could call it a "sideways linear boleo" if you want :)

tangotime

01-06-2011, 05:17 AM

I wouldn't argue with that, substituting Rumba for outside the US (but the same dance, for practical purposes).

The 2 are now so remotely connected, one would not even realise that .

In matter of fact, both have become "characatures ", where the adage " less is more ", could not be more apparent .

UKDancer

01-06-2011, 05:21 AM

The 2 are now so remotely connected, one would not even realise that .

In matter of fact, both have become "characatures ", where the adage " less is more ", could not be more apparent .

AAAh! People have the cheek to call me a pedant. OK, then, for the purposes of the point which the poster was making, and on which I commented, International Rumba = Bolero, but they're as different as chalk and cheese, and they don't bear any relation to the aboriginal dance from which they are derived...

tangotime

01-06-2011, 05:25 AM

The other thing to keep in mind is that "ballroom" is not one dance.

It is nine or ten different dances (or more if you count some social dances, like nightclub 2-step or hustle that many BRers (at least in the US) learn and dance regularly).

There are actually over 30..

UKDancer

01-06-2011, 05:26 AM

There are actually over 30..

Hey, but they're all the same, aren't they? They must be, tango dancers say so ...

tangotime

01-06-2011, 05:39 AM

.
but they're as different as chalk and cheese, and they don't bear any relation to the aboriginal dance from which they are derived...

Hows about just going back the middle 50s ? . And yes, they are related ; in fact the current basic format of Intern. Rumba was based upon Bolero, but as with all the Amer. style Latin ,which is still in vogue, the English, ( in their wisdom ?) decided to improve upon it (?).

There is currently an ongoing discussion about the advent of a new style of Q.Step being introduced into American comps.. some comments are quite interesting, like, and I paraphrase " If you do this or that it wont be Q.Step anymore ". As they say , I suppose, whats good for the goose etc....

Most dances continue to evolve.. but.. as i have said in the past, we should be carefull not to completely obscure, what the purpose and origins of social dancing was all about .

tangotime

01-06-2011, 05:40 AM

hey, but they're all the same, aren't they? They must be, tango dancers say so ...

lol !!

JohnEm

01-06-2011, 07:33 AM

Hey, but they're all the same, aren't they? They must be, tango dancers say so ...
I don't think I've ever seen written or heard a tango dancer say that!

What they might say is that in ballroom dancing everyone dances the same
to the same type of music and in tango we don't. Of course it could be argued
that ballroom has it right and it's tango's free for all that is over defended
mainly (in my view and being controversial) by people who want to hog
the floor or, in most cases, people who don't realise. Certainly there is a limit
to the capacity of a tango floor to accommodate such a wide variety of styles,
a problem that doesn't occur quite the same in ballroom, and latin for that matter.

The contradiction of course is that a tango floor of any given size can actually
accommodate more tango couples than ballroom ones. With one proviso -
that the tango style is shrunk to suit the conditions which is apparently
how milonguero evolved. Salon/VU doesn't make the cut for me either.

tangotime

01-06-2011, 07:58 AM

What they might say is that in ballroom dancing everyone dances the same
to the same type of music and in tango we don't.

The contradiction of course is that a tango floor of any given size can actually
accommodate more tango couples than ballroom ones.

.

from your post, it would appear that you know very little about Amer. style dances . Yes, there are those, just like their English counterparts, that do tend to dominate the space.. however, the real difference is the availability in Amer. style to adapt the dances to a very acceptable dance/space, level .

But your biggest misconception is about the music.. it has more variety ,that can and does adapt ,to the social side of dance.

As to the Latin/Rhythm styles, they are way ahead of any genre .

JohnEm

01-06-2011, 08:22 AM

from your post, it would appear that you know very little about Amer. style dances . Yes, there are those, just like their English counterparts, that do tend to dominate the space.. however, the real difference is the availability in Amer. style to adapt the dances to a very acceptable dance/space, level .

But your biggest misconception is about the music.. it has more variety ,that can and does adapt ,to the social side of dance.

As to the Latin/Rhythm styles, they are way ahead of any genre .
Now hold on here! I can't see how you've drawn any of your conclusions
about what I know from what I've written. However, yes I'm English and
have no knowledge of American styles other than a range of swing dances
and I'm not including those.

And I'm really struggling with a misconception of the music. But however
I was only drawing a relevant comparison as a result of the comment by
ukdancer. And it is based on my knowledge of English ballroom and, for
that matter, on English Latin, if that isn't an obvious contradiction.

dchester

01-06-2011, 08:38 AM

Hey, but they're all the same, aren't they? They must be, tango dancers say so ...
Good one.

This is why I don't talk much about ballroom. I know my limitations (well, at least some of them).

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

tangotime

01-06-2011, 08:50 AM

Now hold on here! I can't see how you've drawn any of your conclusions
about what I know from what I've written

. However, yes I'm English and
have no knowledge of American styles other than a range of swing dances
and I'm not including those.

And I'm really struggling with a misconception of the music. But however
I was only drawing a relevant comparison as a result of the comment by
ukdancer. And it is based on my knowledge of English ballroom and, for
that matter, on English Latin, if that isn't an obvious contradiction.

Well, you made a sweeping statement about music . And now you say you have NO knowledge of Amer. style other than Swing. Even in that genre, the range of music is seemingly never ending .

The Amer. styles diversify immensely, and much of this has to do with musical and dance heritage. The Smooth dances, as they are named, have very wide ranges of tempi for e.g. and what may sound strange to the English ear sometimes choices of music would not seem to fit the bill .

As to Intern. style latin ( or the latin genre in general ), the Amer.style was playing what I would term a more indigenous style of music for teaching and dancing, multi yrs before the english came on board ( with some few exceptions ).. Even today, Pop music is not uncommon as the music of choice for teaching, exams and Comps.( thats the one that baffles me ! )

And yes, I know music is subjective, but,when one strips music of its core foundational rhythms, then it becomes something else.

Im not, by a long chalk, the only one on this site that has wide experience with the multi variety of music that is available ( and used ) in the States, for all the dances that they choose to dance to and teach.

I have friends here , who are 40yrs teaching, and still believe that Tea for Two, is an acceptable Cha Cha !! ( I know, its choice ) .

JohnEm

01-06-2011, 09:30 AM

Well, you made a sweeping statement about music . And now you say you have NO knowledge of Amer. style other than Swing. Even in that genre, the range of music is seemingly never ending .

The Amer. styles diversify immensely, and much of this has to do with musical and dance heritage. The Smooth dances, as they are named, have very wide ranges of tempi for e.g. and what may sound strange to the English ear sometimes choices of music would not seem to fit the bill .

As to Intern. style latin ( or the latin genre in general ), the Amer.style was playing what I would term a more indigenous style of music for teaching and dancing, multi yrs before the english came on board ( with some few exceptions ).. Even today, Pop music is not uncommon as the music of choice for teaching, exams and Comps.( thats the one that baffles me ! )

And yes, I know music is subjective, but,when one strips music of its core foundational rhythms, then it becomes something else.
Yes, I'm baffled too. Dances and dance music are symbiotic until the mad
choreographers let their imaginations run riot.

Im not, by a long chalk, the only one on this site that has wide experience with the multi variety of music that is available ( and used ) in the States, for all the dances that they choose to dance to and teach.

I have friends here , who are 40yrs teaching, and still believe that Tea for Two, is an acceptable Cha Cha !! ( I know, its choice ) .
Oh aren't there versions of Tea for Two played with a Cha Cha rhythm then?!
Oh yes - here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WcASyXqZfA
See the comment by the uploader: Oh dear.
Definitely English Latin in so many ways.

However I meant that when a Cha Cha is played (good or otherwise), dancers
Cha Cha, so the only style clash is that of competence and thus extent of figures.
Nevertheless everyone is doing the Cha Cha with an element of predictability
of movement. Same goes for ballroom , everyone waltzes to waltz music.

I think you misunderstood my first post or perhaps it wasn't clear enough.
You are saying that the American dance experience embraces a much wider variety
of music than here but I wouldn't know and am not sure it's that relevant.
It's the degree of dance uniformity in ballroom, not music, I'm referring to.

To take the waltz/Vals as an example at a milonga, as there is a thread running
about it, there is a huge mix of style usually to be seen. From long pauses
and stationary moves to more or less "normal" tango, even Nuevo, through
to those like me who respond to the circular nature and rhythm of the music.
If only we could all "flow" together rather more empathetically.

tangotime

01-06-2011, 10:12 AM

.

I think you misunderstood my first post or perhaps it wasn't clear enough.
You are saying that the American dance experience embraces a much wider variety
of music than here but I wouldn't know and am not sure it's that relevant.

.

yes , I believe you misunderstood my point ..

Music is suppose to represent a " style " thats indigenous to the dance being danced, thats why its relevant; the relevance of choice should dictate HOW we dance .

The musical interpretation may and should change, given the composition . Latin music tells a story ,as do most songs and the music is diverse within its self, and the dance should reflect that.

Herein lies the problem ; the latin genres music as is often used in Comps ( it is getting better ) does NOT always reflect its heritage or meaning, and yet, the danced variety used, NEVER changes .

Lets put it another way, I am able to dance most 2/4 or 4/4 time signatures, using any of the standard b/room dances.. Now, does that accurately portray the intent of the dance that was invented ?; and even more important, do the steps I use, remain the same as the ones I always use, no matter what the song ? . I sincerely hope that my choices of material are reflected in the music . ( this problem is reflected in the Salsa genre to the nth degree ) .

The Standard / Smooth styles are much more uniform in their approach , but even sometimes can be kinda odd choices .

I do want to make it clear that, IF one is doing a show piece, then liberties may be appropriate, providing its character is still evident.

And, to bring it back T/arg. should we not again, make what we dance reflect the song being played ?

JohnEm

01-06-2011, 10:40 AM

yes , I believe you misunderstood my point ..

Oh crikey, I'm not going to continue with this circular discussion about
who misunderstood what!

Music is suppose to represent a " style " thats indigenous to the dance being danced, thats why its relevant; the relevance of choice should dictate HOW we dance.
You seem to be being too absolutist.
Music is music, it isn't "supposed to represent" anything.
Dances evolve from the music, the dance evolves and back influences
the music and so on. For me, ballroom tango is the prime example.

The musical interpretation may and should change, given the composition . Latin music tells a story ,as do most songs and the music is diverse within its self, and the dance should reflect that.

Herein lies the problem ; the latin genres music as is often used in Comps ( it is getting better ) does NOT always reflect its heritage or meaning, and yet, the danced variety used, NEVER changes .

Lets put it another way, I am able to dance most 2/4 or 4/4 time signatures, using any of the standard b/room dances.. Now, does that accurately portray the intent of the dance that was invented ?; and even more important, do the steps I use, remain the same as the ones I always use, no matter what the song ? . I sincerely hope that my choices of material are reflected in the music . ( this problem is reflected in the Salsa genre to the nth degree ) .

The Standard / Smooth styles are much more uniform in their approach , but even sometimes can be kinda odd choices .

I do want to make it clear that, IF one is doing a show piece, then liberties may be appropriate, providing its character is still evident.
I have no idea why anything I wrote spurred you into this post but never mind,
I agree with your point of view and, more relevantly, this:

And, to bring it back T/arg. should we not again, make what we dance reflect the song being played ?
Absolutely, maybe my paragraph on the Vals wasn't explicit enough?
You're welcome to join the musicality police, perhaps a small cohort
of us will be enough to encourage those who insist on tangoing
to milonga to actually dance to the music and move to the rhythm?