Feeling the Man's Steps? [Archive]

Steve Pastor

01-14-2011, 02:06 PM

I've been reading comments in the past few months that read in effect, the man should step in such a way that the woman can feel his steps.

I was taught that the man leads with his body, and that the woman follows the man's body; or more exactly his "center".
We were given exercises to practice just this; the man moving his feet in different ways while the woman takes her own steps.
He practices moving his center in a steady fashion, while varying his footwork. She concentrates on ignoring what he is doing with his feet, while responding to the lead from his center.

The earliest example of this in my lessons was when we were taught how to go into "crossed system" by taking an extra step. The man does this smoothly so that the woman either doesn't feel it, or knows she is supposed to ignore it.

All of this was consistent over a number of teachers here in Portland, and numerous visiting notables.

What have you all been taught in this regard?

mkjohnson

01-14-2011, 02:23 PM

"She concentrates on ignoring what he is doing with his feet, while responding to the lead from his center."

That's essentially what I've been taught by all the teachers I've studied with. Granted that's only a handful, but it's been fairly consistent in my instruction.

dchester

01-14-2011, 02:36 PM

ant

01-14-2011, 02:39 PM

I was taught that the man leads with his body, and that the woman follows the man's body; or more exactly his "center".

I agree that the woman follows the intention of the leaders body but I have also been taught that intention from the body is generated by the leaders connection to the floor.

Zoopsia59

01-14-2011, 02:59 PM

I'm with you on this one... I don't need to feel his steps. I don't care about his steps. I need to feel where he wants ME to step. (and he needs to feel where I have stepped, even if it wasn't where he intended) I prefer to feel this from his body, not from his arms or from realizing he meant for me to step only after he steps on me.

Basically, what he's leading matters; what he's doing doesn't unless it becomes part of his lead.

Zoopsia59

01-14-2011, 03:03 PM

I have also been taught that intention from the body is generated by the leaders connection to the floor.

that may be true, but the follower still doesn't feel his intention as coming from his feet, therefore where they are doesn't matter to her unless they're on top of hers. :D (or unless they are somewhere that doesn't work for what he's leading her to do)

His feet only matter to her when they are a problem, and if she's doing what he led, then it's HIS problem to fix, not the follower's problem because she didn't know what he was doing with them or something

AndaBien

01-14-2011, 03:08 PM

...She concentrates on ignoring what he is doing with his feet, while responding to the lead from his center...

This is consistent with my idea of how it works, assuming you are not talking about OE.

toothlesstiger

01-14-2011, 03:52 PM

If the lady can pay attention to his feet, either she is looking down (bad) or the connection is a bit low. ;-)

In standard, at syllabus level I have a number of figures where the lady takes more steps than I do.

So, based on just those two points, I would agree with OP.

That being said, I was talking the other day to a high level standard dancer who says she sucks at Argentine Tango because she keeps reacting to the weight changes she feels the man makes.

So the real challenge in my mind is how well the man can lead something different with his center than he is doing with his feet.

Zoopsia59

01-14-2011, 04:04 PM

So the real challenge in my mind is how well the man can lead something different with his center than he is doing with his feet.

Yes, that is a challenge for leaders in AT. But it is intrinsic to advancing in the dance.

Nathan

01-14-2011, 04:20 PM

I suppose it depends on what she's planning on doing! If she's just following the lead, she doesn't need to know anything about his feet because he is taking care of everything. If, on the other hand, she decides that she wants to do a lot of creative embellishments, then she does need to know where his feet/legs are in order to avoid injuring him.

Zoopsia59

01-14-2011, 04:37 PM

I If, on the other hand, she decides that she wants to do a lot of creative embellishments, then she does need to know where his feet/legs are in order to avoid injuring him.

Don't agree, and I've never hit a leader yet with an embellishment. A follower's embellishments typically don't extend in front of her. She's usually in more danger of kicking someone else on the floor around them than her own leader. If a follower is injuring her partner with her embellishments (or anyone else for that matter) then there's a bigger problem than her not knowing where the leader's feet are!

Nathan

01-14-2011, 06:40 PM

Don't agree, and I've never hit a leader yet with an embellishment. A follower's embellishments typically don't extend in front of her. She's usually in more danger of kicking someone else on the floor around them than her own leader. If a follower is injuring her partner with her embellishments (or anyone else for that matter) then there's a bigger problem than her not knowing where the leader's feet are!
Different followers have different ways of dancing, and some involve more "active participation" than others. Without question, if a follower is injuring her partner or anyone else, she is not dancing properly. I wasn't talking about that. All I was saying is that there are things a follower can do which require her to be especially aware of her partner's body if she wants to do them without causing harm. This is not so far from what leaders have to do with every step we take. ;)

twnkltoz

01-14-2011, 06:48 PM

As a BR dancer, this is probably my biggest cross-over challenge: tuning out the "noise" he makes with his feet and having confidence that what I'm feeling from his body is what he wants. One leader I dance with occasionally does this thing where he steps back, does two quick weight changes and then steps forward again. I wasn't sure before if I was supposed to try to do the weight changes too, but I just couldn't seem to keep up and do them. Now I feel more comfortable that I was right in not doing them!

gyb

01-14-2011, 06:55 PM

Zoopsia59

01-14-2011, 06:57 PM

Different followers have different ways of dancing, and some involve more "active participation" than others. Without question, if a follower is injuring her partner or anyone else, she is not dancing properly. I wasn't talking about that. All I was saying is that there are things a follower can do which require her to be especially aware of her partner's body if she wants to do them without causing harm. This is not so far from what leaders have to do with every step we take. ;)

I think I know what you are trying to say, but since you used the term "embellishment" I was responding to that alone.

If the pair are dancing a "give and take" sort of dance where hijacking the lead or deliberately doing something that changes the leader's intention, then yes, maybe she needs to know a lot more than the usual amount about where the leader is. However, by definition, an embellishment is supposed to avoid altering the lead or getting in the way of the lead. In fact, it's ok if the leader doesn't even notice them.

So although certain ways of relating to one another in the dance (such as styles where the follower has a great deal more say in what steps occur) may require that the follower have the awareness you speak of, I stick to my view that it should not be necessary for embellishments.

Nathan

01-14-2011, 08:18 PM

I think I know what you are trying to say, but since you used the term "embellishment" I was responding to that alone.

If the pair are dancing a "give and take" sort of dance where hijacking the lead or deliberately doing something that changes the leader's intention, then yes, maybe she needs to know a lot more than the usual amount about where the leader is. However, by definition, an embellishment is supposed to avoid altering the lead or getting in the way of the lead. In fact, it's ok if the leader doesn't even notice them.

So although certain ways of relating to one another in the dance (such as styles where the follower has a great deal more say in what steps occur) may require that the follower have the awareness you speak of, I stick to my view that it should not be necessary for embellishments.
Sort of... what I was referring to is the grey area between those two concepts: unled movements that are big enough to be felt and possibly dangerous if not done with care, but that don't interfere with the lead either. Does that make sense?

Subliminal

01-14-2011, 08:51 PM

The claim that "the man should step in such a way that the woman can feel his steps" and the claim that the lead should come from the chest only are not in contradiction.

I don't know about the referred discussions, but one reason why a close embrace leader might not want to step so smoothly as to not let the follower feel his steps is to let her enjoy how he plays with the rhythm with his steps.

Now undoubtedly _most_ leaders have a problem of not stepping smoothly enough to make the close embrace comfortable and/or have a problem with leading with the chest (ahem, with the entire upper connection) exclusively. And so the best advice for most leaders is to try to disassociate more and to try to take smoother steps. But when someone becomes so smooth as to not let any information about the step get through, this can come as a loss for the follower in understanding the leaders musical interpretation.

I'm not sure I agree with your use of dissassociate here. In a fluid walk, there is no dissassociation unless you're outside partner.

Telling a leader to take smoother steps can also be a little misleading. Some people might take that to mean step lighter, which is the opposite of what you want.

I do agree completely about the musicality though. With a good walk, you can communicate a lot of the feeling of the music. It's not just about the follower feeling your feet, but how you interpret the length of a note, starting from the floor, up through your feet and legs, then through the spiral motion of your entire body.

opendoor

01-15-2011, 01:40 AM

..were taught how to go into "crossed system" by taking an extra step. The man does this smoothly so that the woman either doesn't feel it, or knows she is supposed to ignore it. ..
What have you all been taught in this regard?

Think that is the rule, it should be this way. The woman must not care about crossed or parallel system. It is the leader´s task. So if something does not work, the leader is to blame (as with almost everything in TA), may be there was not enough body dissociation, or a mistake in choosing the outside stepping track.

As a BR dancer, this is probably my biggest cross-over challenge: tuning out the "noise" he makes with his feet and having confidence that what I'm feeling from his body is what he wants.

We were talking about crossed system. But in parallel system there is really a clear signal. It is called step projecting. So I can send the follower the information of the step size. This avoids the clashing of the knees.

One leader I dance with occasionally does this thing where he steps back, does two quick weight changes and then steps forward again. I wasn't sure before if I was supposed to try to do the weight changes too, but I just couldn't seem to keep up and do them. Now I feel more comfortable that I was right in not doing them!

Sometimes leaders do some adornos and tapping on the spot, weight changes and some other stepping. The follower may also do some fancy stuff during this moments.

ant

01-15-2011, 02:14 AM

His feet only matter to her when they are a problem, and if she's doing what he led, then it's HIS problem to fix, not the follower's problem because she didn't know what he was doing with them or something

I would have thought that you may be feeling the amount of energy being created from the floor by the leader as giving a guide to the amount of energy you need to put in your equivalent movement. Anyway thats what I have been taught.

UKDancer

01-15-2011, 02:58 AM

As a BR dancer, this is probably my biggest cross-over challenge: tuning out the "noise" he makes with his feet and having confidence that what I'm feeling from his body is what he wants.

At the risk of hijacking this thread into a continuation of the recent 'Cross-Over' one, I would say that there arre two things here to consider.

The first is that a BR leader may be relatively unaware of the extend to which his upper body is not 'still' (particularly laterally) during step movements, and is actually generating too much step-based noise, which then becomes hard to tune out of.

The other is that while a decent BR dancer already leads by intention: the body moves first; the different degree of forward balance, and the stress on upper body movement for AT leading means that a beginning AT leader may be getting the balance of these elements wrong while sincerely believing that he is doing what the instructor suggested. A BR analogy [BR technique alert: do not read next sentence if you want to read exclusively about AT!] might be a beginners attempt at CBM & sway. They think they are doing both, indeed they feel that they are doing both to a huge extent, but no one else can see or feel a thing. The opposite can be true: we can believe that we have eradicated something which is not helpful in AT, but it's still there really...

Of course this only applies if the leader is a beginning AT dancer from the BR world. If the issue is that a beginning follower can't tune out an experienced leaders steps, then either the leader has got lazy and into bad habits and is allowing his body to create the wrong noise, or possibly, that the follower is so used to tuning into step patters, that the body has (possibly subconsciously) actually gone looking for them. That the result is confusing is inevitable, given the relationship between lead and steps in the dance.

Mladenac

01-15-2011, 09:08 AM

I would have thought that you may be feeling the amount of energy being created from the floor by the leader as giving a guide to the amount of energy you need to put in your equivalent movement. Anyway thats what I have been taught.

I completely agree.

The feeling how much leader put weight certain leg helps in sudden changes of direction and variations of speed.

mshedgehog

01-15-2011, 10:47 AM

Interesting points. I mostly cannot tell what the man is doing with his feet, especially if he is very quick, and I don't need to, it's not relevant to what he's leading. But I'm not saying it would be a bad thing.

It occurs to me that what you heard could have nothing much to do with the lead, it could be a way of telling the man to be 'grounded' (for example not having his knees too stiff, or curving his axis by bending sideways or wriggling). If I make those kinds of mistakes as a follower, then the man cannot tell which foot I am on, and he may tread on my toes. Both dancers being grounded contributes a lot to the feeling of being one thing with four legs. So that could be what they were driving at. Not so much part of the leading, but good for the overall hanging together.

Peaches

01-15-2011, 11:51 AM

I would have thought that you may be feeling the amount of energy being created from the floor by the leader as giving a guide to the amount of energy you need to put in your equivalent movement. Anyway thats what I have been taught.
Well, yes. But that doesn't really mean we should be feeling what he's doing with his feet and each step he takes. The man could be dancing a jig with his feet--what matters to us as followers is what he leads us to do--what he does with his center and asks for of us.

LoveTango

01-15-2011, 09:19 PM

Zoopsia59

01-15-2011, 10:04 PM

if I can feel the steps (they don't have to be very pronounced), I can position my feet more accurately, and step or change weight more timely, .

I don't position my feet based on knowledge of the position of his feet. I position them based on where he LEADS me to position them (combined with proper reaching and stepping technique of my own). Hopefully he places his own feet in a manner consistent with his lead. If he doesn't, then that's something he needs to work on. If I reach improperly for his lead, that's something I need to work on.. it has nothing to do with knowing where his feet are because my feet are supposed to go somewhere based on their relation to MY body, not to his feet. He needs to lead my body to the right place for my feet to end up where he needs them. (assuming my own technique is sound... if it isn't, then he would naturally have trouble getting my feet to an expected place)

I also don't change weight based on the timing of his footwork. I change it based on him leading me to change weight. Again, hopefully his feet are in the correct place for the weight changes he leads. If they aren't, then once again, he needs to fix that.

Of course, all this is easier said than done which is why so many people look down at each other's feet (or their own) while dancing. But leading or following based on where the other person's feet are isn't a good way anyway.

LoveTango

01-15-2011, 10:21 PM

I don't position my feet based on knowledge of the position of his feet. I position them based on where he LEADS me to position them (combined with proper reaching and stepping technique of my own). Hopefully he places his own feet in a manner consistent with his lead. If he doesn't, then that's something he needs to work on. If I reach improperly for his lead, that's something I need to work on.. it has nothing to do with knowing where his feet are because my feet are supposed to go somewhere based on their relation to MY body, not to his feet. He needs to lead my body to the right place for my feet to end up where he needs them. (assuming my own technique is sound... if it isn't, then he would naturally have trouble getting my feet to an expected place)

I also don't change weight based on the timing of his footwork. I change it based on him leading me to change weight. Again, hopefully his feet are in the correct place for the weight changes he leads. If they aren't, then once again, he needs to fix that.

Of course, all this is easier said than done which is why so many people look down at each other's feet (or their own) while dancing. But leading or following based on where the other person's feet are isn't a good way anyway.

Do you compromise when you dance with less experienced leader?

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 12:10 AM

Do you compromise when you dance with less experienced leader?

That depends on what you mean by "compromise".

ant

01-16-2011, 03:51 AM

Well, yes.
We agree up to here then.
But that doesn't really mean we should be feeling what he's doing with his feet and each step he takes
I would suggest that you should. I would agree that you will not always be given important information to act upon. As an example, when walking in a consistant way the direction, timing, speed and length of step are established but it is still be conveyed with each step, however the first indication of a change will normally be conveyed by the leader by a different quality of connection to the floor and as such you will be aware that a new intention will be coming through the chest. So when a leader does want to convey something in this way it will often be the followers first indication of a change in what is happening and I would suggest this is important information.
The man could be dancing a jig with his feet
I would suggest that if the leader is not expecting you to do something when he doing a jig he is not actively leading at that point.

--what matters to us as followers is what he leads us to do

I agree

--what he does with his center

I agree

--what matters to us as followers is what he leads us to do--what he does with his center and asks for of us

However taking your post as a whole, as with the OP you appear to be suggesting that it is only through his centre that the leader conveys his message to the follower. Not only do I disagree with this but it appears to a contradiction to the first part of your post.

I would say that the intention of the leader through the chest conveys direction and the type movement required but the connection of his feet through the floor gives an indication of the energy required and as regards timing this will be determined by the partnerships joint connection to the music, their connection through the chest, there individual connections to the floor and maybe other aspects.

So in my opinion a lead is not only about the intention through the chest, there are other aspects as well. In this instance the OP appears to suggest excluding the leaders feet, although this was not defined.

If this means the quality of the leaders foot connection to the floor then IMO it should not be ignored. If it was meant that both leaders and followers should not be looking at each others feet then I do agree.

ant

01-16-2011, 04:13 AM

I don't position my feet based on knowledge of the position of his feet. I position them based on where he LEADS me to position them (combined with proper reaching and stepping technique of my own). ...it has nothing to do with knowing where his feet are

How does the above apply in relation to side steps, for instance what qualities would you expect in the lead of side steps of various length?

because my feet are supposed to go somewhere based on their relation to MY body, not to his feet.,

In itself this is a truism but in relationship to the side step question above how do you square this statement off. I have been taught that the length of the followers side step is usually determined according to where the leader puts (or on some occassions appear to put) his foot.

opendoor

01-16-2011, 04:23 AM

..So in my opinion a lead is not only about the intention through the chest, there are other aspects as well. In this instance the OP appears to suggest excluding the leaders feet, although this was not defined.

Hi I would agree, but I can follow Peaches, as well. Leading through the chest or by the centre is a didactical advice for beginners. We cannot reduce the lead to a certain part of the body. The whole entire body is involved in the lead. Sometimes the lead is transmitted by my chest, by my feet, by my hands, arms, and especially by my head. The least I can say is, that all these body parts may not contradict each other when leading. When doing rulos, enrosques, soltadas the chest cannot be the conveyer, so another part of your body will fill in.

AndaBien

01-16-2011, 08:40 AM

I feel that the leader should intentionally let followers feel certain steps while intentionally hide certain steps, such the extra step they put in to get into cross system, or the leaders embellishment.

In general I (as follower) don't need to know what the leader is doing with his/her feet. However, I think, if I can feel the steps (they don't have to be very pronounced), I can position my feet more accurately, and step or change weight more timely, so to make the dance more smooth and better balance for both.

Of course, the lead is not dependent on the feeling of steps.

I think this is true, for me. I think it's fine for my partner to feel my steps, except for when she shouldn't. Also, sometimes our feet are quite close together, even too close, so it's helpful for my partner to know where my feet are and make adjustments as needed. I want my partner to respond to me as her partner, including where my feet are. Again, as needed. This especially true when I am moving backward, when she should be confident of where my feet are, so she can step forward confidently.

Mosca Negra

01-16-2011, 09:41 AM

To dance in blissful ignorance of the position and velocity of a leaders feet is to invite the urgent requirement for an emergency pedicure.

opendoor

01-16-2011, 09:58 AM

Then take a look at the heel decoration of this tanguero...

http://www.rounddancing.net/dance/figures/images/Valentino1921.jpg

dchester

01-16-2011, 11:21 AM

Hi I would agree, but I can follow Peaches, as well. Leading through the chest or by the centre is a didactical advice for beginners. We cannot reduce the lead to a certain part of the body. The whole entire body is involved in the lead. Sometimes the lead is transmitted by my chest, by my feet, by my hands, arms, and especially by my head. The least I can say is, that all these body parts may not contradict each other when leading. When doing rulos, enrosques, soltadas the chest cannot be the conveyer, so another part of your body will fill in.
I have no issue with what you are saying here (other than possibly the last sentence), but I have heard a couple people say something like they need to be aware of the leaders steps. Maybe I don't understand what they mean by this, but if they are waiting for him to step, they have missed the lead, IMO.

opendoor

01-16-2011, 11:35 AM

Think so, too

Forgot to say,

1) If a tall leader is around and if it is not crowded on the dance floor, and if he has got no problem with the fact of leading another man in public (and at all), I regularly ask for being led. (Think for a guy I am a fairly good follower) But when following, I never recognize single steps nor the position of feet or legs of the lead. Following feels more bit like pneumatics. You escape into the free direction.

2) For a long time it was my aim to lead so smoothly that a follower cannot feel my stepping, and though have no detailed information of my feet position.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 12:10 PM

however the first indication of a change will normally be conveyed by the leader by a different quality of connection to the floor and as such you will be aware that a new intention will be coming through the chest. So when a leader does want to convey something in this way it will often be the followers first indication of a change in what is happening and I would suggest this is important information.

And you said it yourself... it will be coming through his chest!

If this means the quality of the leaders foot connection to the floor then IMO it should not be ignored.

The quality of the leader's connection to the floor is important for his overall technique. If he isn't connected, then everything suffers. WHERE his feet are on the floor is not something the follower should have to worry about.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 12:13 PM

How does the above apply in relation to side steps, for instance what qualities would you expect in the lead of side steps of various length?

In itself this is a truism but in relationship to the side step question above how do you square this statement off. I have been taught that the length of the followers side step is usually determined according to where the leader puts (or on some occassions appear to put) his foot.

In sidesteps, I go with his body and maintain my relationship to it unless he deliberately prevents me (as might be the case if he is stepping further than he wants me in order to get outside of me) Where he puts his foot might determine where his body goes, but I'm going with his body, not his foot.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 12:15 PM

Hi I would agree, but I can follow Peaches, as well. Leading through the chest or by the centre is a didactical advice for beginners. We cannot reduce the lead to a certain part of the body. The whole entire body is involved in the lead. Sometimes the lead is transmitted by my chest, by my feet, by my hands, arms, and especially by my head. The least I can say is, that all these body parts may not contradict each other when leading. When doing rulos, enrosques, soltadas the chest cannot be the conveyer, so another part of your body will fill in.

In my experience, advanced dancers DO lead with the chest and the beginners are the ones using all those other things.

I'll also add that as a personal preference, I totally hate being led by having the leader use pressure of his skull on mine to push one way or another.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 12:27 PM

I think this is true, for me. I think it's fine for my partner to feel my steps, except for when she shouldn't. Also, sometimes our feet are quite close together, even too close, so it's helpful for my partner to know where my feet are and make adjustments as needed. I want my partner to respond to me as her partner, including where my feet are. Again, as needed. This especially true when I am moving backward, when she should be confident of where my feet are, so she can step forward confidently.

when you move backwards, you are responsible for keeping your feet back just as she is when she is moving backwards. There should be a space for her to step forward into just as there is when YOU step forward into her. The only difference is that when the leader walks forward into the follower, he knows which foot she is on and where the space is because he created it. When the follower steps forward into the leader, she has to trust that she is stepping with the intended foot into a space because he created the correct circumstances for her to step. She moves confidently because of that trust and because he led her to, not because she knows where his feet are. She is trusting that they are out of her way.

Think about it... why would the person in charge tell you to step on him? We assume that when you ask us to step, you have gotten yourself out of our way since you know we are coming your way..

In my experience teaching leaders, it's rare for them to move backwards using the same proper body mechanics that followers use to move backwards. The person who is moving backwards has a responsibility to get out of the way by the method of reaching and the overall posture. Some people go so far as to say that if the follower gets stepped on when walking backwards it's her own fault because her feet should have been back to begin with regardless of where he steps. I won't go THAT far, but I haven't taught a leader yet who (in the beginning) steps backwards the way followers have learned to do.

I'll also add that if you and your follower's feet frequently get too close together, it is a sign of a bigger problem than the follower not knowing where your feet are. It might be her technique or it might be yours or it might be a coming together of both... but it isn't because she doesn't know where your feet are. She shouldn't have to worry about your feet.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 12:30 PM

Then take a look at the heel decoration of this tanguero...

So now we not only need to know where his feet are, but we also have to be gauging 6" BEHIND each foot? :rolleyes:

opendoor

01-16-2011, 12:36 PM

hate .. pressure of his skull on mine to push one way..

Ok, if we should meet on the dance floor, I really will pay heed to it. ;)

But seriously, I meant something different: there is a thing called "opening the space" by/with the head. Its a thing out of the Naveira syllabus. Don´t know if you are familiar with it. But also in close hold a slight movement of the head holds some information for the follower.

cheers

AndaBien

01-16-2011, 12:39 PM

...There should be a space for her to step forward into just as there is when YOU step forward into her...

Yes, of course, the foot moving backward should create space. But, the standing foot isn't going anywhere and will probably be passed by the partners advancing foot.

When I'm moving forward I like to pass close by my partners standing foot, sometimes. When my partner is moving forward, I think she should be aware of where my standing foot is, so she can come close to it, touch it if she wants to, but not kick it.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 12:44 PM

Ok, if we should meet on the dance floor, I really will pay heed to it. ;)

But seriously, I meant something different: there is a thing called "opening the space" by/with the head. Its a thing out of the Naveira syllabus. Don´t know if you are familiar with it. But also in close hold a slight movement of the head holds some information for the follower.

cheers

Maybe I'm not familiar with it. Or maybe there are leaders doing it and it just didn't consciously register with me even though I followed it.

I have had the leaders that actively push with their heads though...

Mosca Negra

01-16-2011, 02:21 PM

I have had the leaders that actively push with their heads though...

I too have seen a few old goats use the head butt technique.

opendoor

01-16-2011, 02:25 PM

..old goats use the head butt technique..

Sorry, perhaps my english is fragmentary..

head to butt technique sounds a bit like wrenching on the dance floor?

ant

01-16-2011, 04:41 PM

And you said it yourself... it will be coming through his chest.

It seems to me you have highlighted the part of the quote that suits you and have ignored what was actually being said

Originally posted by ant
As an example, when walking in a consistant way the direction, timing, speed and length of step are established but it is still be conveyed with each step, however the first indication of a change will normally be conveyed by the leader by a different quality of connection to the floor and as such you will be aware that a new intention will be coming through the chest. So when a leader does want to convey something in this way it will often be the followers first indication of a change in what is happening and I would suggest this is important information.

As I said above the connection to the floor is the followers first indication and you appear to have ignored this.

The quality of the leader's connection to the floor is important for his overall technique. If he isn't connected, then everything suffers. WHERE his feet are on the floor is not something the follower should have to worry about

Again you appear to be contributing words to me that I did not say. I have been talking about the quality of the connection to the floor and from this point of view the leaders feet should not be ignored, I have not said the positon of his feet on the floor. (side step excepted which I will comment on in relation to the question raised on this matter.)

ant

01-16-2011, 04:46 PM

In sidesteps, I go with his body and maintain my relationship to it unless he deliberately prevents me (as might be the case if he is stepping further than he wants me in order to get outside of me) Where he puts his foot might determine where his body goes, but I'm going with his body, not his foot.

So you are saying that you will not move your foot until the leader moves his body, even though the leader may already have moved and positioned his foot ready to transfer his weight.

Where the leader gives an intention with his first foot placement to indicate that is where he wants you to place his foot and once this message has been established moves his body to an offset position you will still follow his body?

dchester

01-16-2011, 05:10 PM

ant

01-16-2011, 05:28 PM

Isn't this part of what needs to happen, to get into cross system? The leader should be able to move his foot AND make a weight change, without the follower making a step.

I am not talking about going into cross system I am talking about a simple side step in the first part of the post and still a side step but ending up off set to the follower on the second part of the post. It seems to me that Zoops and I have totally different thinking on this, which surprises me so I am seeking clarification.

As I understand it Zoops has said that she will not move into her sidestep until the leader moves his body. This is my post for my original question and her post for the answer

Originally Posted by ant http://1.2.3.9/bmi/www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=846998#post846998)
How does the above apply in relation to side steps, for instance what qualities would you expect in the lead of side steps of various length?

Originally posted by Zoopsia 59 In sidesteps, I go with his body and maintain my relationship to it unless he deliberately prevents me (as might be the case if he is stepping further than he wants me in order to get outside of me) Where he puts his foot might determine where his body goes, but I'm going with his body, not his foot.

In my opinion she will be causing a disjointed connection if this is the case. I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.

AndaBien

01-16-2011, 05:32 PM

...I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.

I agree with Zoops. The leader moving his feet does not constitute a lead. Only the movement of his upper body does that.

ant

01-16-2011, 05:36 PM

I agree with Zoops. The leader moving his feet does not constitute a lead. Only the movement of his upper body does that.

So from the followers point of view, you would ignore the side movement in order to postion the free foot.

AndaBien

01-16-2011, 05:46 PM

So from the followers point of view, you would ignore the side movement in order to postion the free foot.

If the side movement was with the leaders foot only, I think it should be ignored. If the leaders upper body makes the slightest upper-body move to the side, the follower would either begin or take a side step.

I think a leader should be able to extend his L foot to the left and also lead his partner to extend her foot to her own left, leading with his upper body.

I like the idea that a follower could follow with her eyes closed, responding only the the place where she connects to her partner.

ant

01-16-2011, 06:04 PM

If the side movement was with the leaders foot only, I think it should be ignored. If the leaders upper body makes the slightest upper-body move to the side, the follower would either begin or take a side step.

I think a leader should be able to extend his L foot to the left and also lead his partner to extend her foot to her own left, leading with his upper body.

I like the idea that a follower could follow with her eyes closed, responding only the the place where she connects to her partner.

I think we disagree then.

I would suggest that the lead for the side step starts with the quality of the leaders connection with the floor. If done correctly then it will indicate to the follower the direction of the next movement (sideways) without moving his upper body. I would suggest that the leader can then move his free foot without moving his upper body and expect the follower to mirror this, without looking at his foot. When the leader has placed his foot in the desired position he will then move his weight onto the foot and follower will do the same.

It seems to me that your method requires the follower to look at the leaders chest or be behind the leader or be pushed by the leader and whatever the case, cause the follower to snatch her step.

I would also suggest that you have not answered how the leader can end up in an offset position to the follower.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 06:37 PM

It seems to me you have highlighted the part of the quote that suits you and have ignored what was actually being said

Actually it seems to me that you and I don't actually disagree all that much, so I'm not sure why you think I'm ignoring what you say.

however the first indication of a change will normally be conveyed by the leader by a different quality of connection to the floor and as such you will be aware that a new intention will be coming through the chest.

Which I will feel through his chest because that's where I'm connected to him.

I don't know why this is an argument.. I agree with what you say about the leader's technique here, but I'm saying that as a follower, I FEEL what you are talking about through his body and I'm not consciously aware of his feet in this process.

The follower's awareness of the leader's connection to the floor is simply an awareness of how stable he is. Can't speak for other followers on this, but I don't think of that in terms of his feet specifically. There's no analyzing of his feet to give me info about his stability. As for being aware of the first inclinations of his impending movement, I don't depend on movement of his feet for me to know. Some leads come without moving the feet at all, so for me, I first feel the lead in his body. You may be right in that the first indication comes from his connection to the floor, but I feel his connection to the floor through my connection to his BODY.

AndaBien

01-16-2011, 06:56 PM

I think we disagree then...

I guess so.

...connection with the floor...

You keep mentioning this, but I really don't know what you mean by it. If you mean the interface between the bottom of the leaders shoe and the surface of the floor, I don't know how I can have any effect on it.

...I would suggest that the leader can then move his free foot without moving his upper body and expect the follower to mirror this...

Not at all. I do not want my partner to respond to what I do with my free foot.

...I would also suggest that you have not answered how the leader can end up in an offset position to the follower.

Easy. I lead her to remain in place while I take steps to the offset position.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 07:02 PM

As I understand it Zoops has said that she will not move into her sidestep until the leader moves his body. This is my post for my original question and her post for the answer

In my opinion she will be causing a disjointed connection if this is the case. I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.

I begin my reach when I first feel his intention. I feel his intention in his body. The reason I feel it may be that he has moved his foot, but I am not connected to his leg, I'm connected to his body (and I certainly don't want to be looking at his leg!) so if he keeps his body absolutely still, I won't feel it. If I was going by his leg movement, I might take steps he didn't want me to take.

Once the direction of his intention is clear, I reach that direction without placing weight on my free leg until I'm led to. To me, the follower's free leg is her's to do with whatever she wants until she is led to do something specific. The leader's movement of his own leg while keeping his body still is not a lead for me to do something specific with my free leg. Once he starts to move sideways, forward, or wherever, by even a slight pressure in his body, it is my responsibility to get my leg there without being sluggish. Most leaders I've danced with are not reaching way over to the side, way in advance of beginning a weight transfer. It's obvious fairly quickly that he is going to be making a sidestep.

So I THINK the answer is
No, I would not move into my sidestep if the leader hasn't moved his body. To my mind doing so would be the case of a disconnection, not the other way around.

However, followers make a distinction between reaching the free leg and moving into the step, so it could be that we aren't talking about the same thing here. In my view, the leader indicates what direction the follower should be reaching by a change in his body albeit very slight. You seem to be advocating that the leader can move his foot without changing his body and have the follower take that as an indication to reach a certain way.

IMO, until the leader gives an indication in his body, she has the option of using her free leg anyway she wants.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 07:06 PM

So from the followers point of view, you would ignore the side movement in order to postion the free foot.

Side movement of what? I'm not sure the situation we're debating actually exists. I don't know any leaders who can reach to the side without ANY change in their body. Usually the change I feel first in a sidestep after being still is a downward motion (getting deeper in the knees) That's often a clue that a large sidestep is coming, and going down often makes my free leg go out to the side. If I haven't gotten any indications, I might be doing lapis movements with my free leg and it heads in the right direction as soon as I know what direction is the right direction.

I've never had anyone complain that I'm slow to respond or lagging behind. More often I get comments on how easy I am to move and how light I am.

Zoopsia59

01-16-2011, 07:21 PM

I would suggest that the lead for the side step starts with the quality of the leaders connection with the floor. If done correctly then it will indicate to the follower the direction of the next movement (sideways) without moving his upper body.

I really don't know how a follower could tell the leaders connection to the floor changed if he makes NO change in the part of his body that she is connected to. In fact, changing the connection to the floor without any movement in the body is one of the harder things for leaders to learn when they WANT to make a weight change without the follower doing it also.

Maybe you don't realize how NOT STILL leaders' bodies are! There's indication coming thorugh even when they don't want there to be, but you seem to be working from a premise that there are times when there is NO indication even when you aren't trying for that.

That hasn't been my experience.

Hence the difficulty followers have dealing with the "signal to noise ratio", especially given that some leaders have VERY subtle leads making it even harder to know what is real and what is to be ignored. Leaders' bodies are almost NEVER totally still even when they want to be.

I can't imagine a case where the leader isn't even trying to keep his body still, that it becomes so still that the follower feels NOTHING through it. so I'm really not understanding what situation you are attempting to discuss.

I think as followers gain more experience, they get much better at picking up on smaller more subtle indications in the body, but learning what can be ignored becomes inversely more complicated as they start picking up on more.

dchester

01-16-2011, 07:40 PM

I am not talking about going into cross system I am talking about a simple side step in the first part of the post and still a side step but ending up off set to the follower on the second part of the post. It seems to me that Zoops and I have totally different thinking on this, which surprises me so I am seeking clarification.

As I understand it Zoops has said that she will not move into her sidestep until the leader moves his body. This is my post for my original question and her post for the answer

In my opinion she will be causing a disjointed connection if this is the case.I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.
Possibly I still don't know what you are really talking about, but if I want the follower to do a side step, I lead it with my chest, and not my feet. BTW, when I'm leading a side step, my foot doesn't normally move before my chest does. Also, I use disassociation to keep the connection if I want her offset (stepping outside the follower), so it's still from the chest.

What you appear to be saying sounds so alien to me, it makes me wonder if I am not really understanding what you mean (or there's an aspect/technique of leading that I know nothing about).

Ray Sison

01-16-2011, 11:14 PM

Nathan

01-17-2011, 04:09 AM

I would suggest that the leader can then move his free foot without moving his upper body and expect the follower to mirror this, without looking at his foot. When the leader has placed his foot in the desired position he will then move his weight onto the foot and follower will do the same.

While I think it's beneficial for a follower to know where the leader's feet are, that's only because it lets her be aware of what the couple is doing as a whole and have a greater appreciation for the dance she's half responsible for producing. What you are talking about is... well, let's just say it's not the way people lead and follow in tango!

The lead for this movement (i.e. the follower sticking her free leg out) is a tiny impulse in the direction the leader wants her to place her foot, without him taking a step and doing a weight transfer. As soon as he's sent this impulse, he can then move his own free leg/foot however he chooses (in the same direction or any other). If executed properly, this creates the illusion of simultaneity. This is the same fundamental technique used in walking, just broken down into its constituent parts.

It seems to me that your method requires the follower to look at the leaders chest or be behind the leader or be pushed by the leader and whatever the case, cause the follower to snatch her step.
Everything is felt through your partner's body. As a leader, I feel my partner's feet through her body, just as she feels the lead through mine. Good dancing has nothing at all to do with sight and little to do with pushing: it's about signal transduction, plain and simple.

I would also suggest that you have not answered how the leader can end up in an offset position to the follower.
For instance: he creates a larger impulse so that she places her foot farther (sinking down slightly makes this message even clearer). Then he takes a shorter step than the one he led her to take. That's one way... there are many others.

Mario7

01-31-2011, 10:24 AM

Great question but as usual the replies go to the moon and back. Steve is looking for the Milonguero secret of 'shooting the feet'..throwing the shoes to the floor rather than weakly walking them....another name for this is 'walking on cobblestones' , if you've ever had the luck to live in town with cobblestone streets , you will know what I'm talking about....you must shoot the feet straight down to where the stone is, otherwise you will slip off the edge of the stone and turn the ankle.... oK.. great examples of this are most dances of Jorge Firpo and Ruben Haryenblot (sp?)
Of course, for The great example of this technique one must go to the greatest milongueros like Ricardo Vidort. ...good luck in seeing and mastering this..it will add a special touch or should I say 'kick' to your dance and clue-in the woman so that she follows with perfect feeling.

dchester

01-31-2011, 10:46 AM

Steve Pastor

01-31-2011, 11:15 AM

Pow, Alice! To the moon.

opendoor

01-31-2011, 11:16 AM

....another name for this is 'walking on cobblestones' ....you must shoot the feet straight down to where the stone is, otherwise you will slip off the edge of the stone and...

Hi Mario, I read that the old-time embellishment called Elevada (sudden yanking of the free foot) can be traced back to shaky grounds, as well.

Subliminal

01-31-2011, 11:42 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I somehow thought he was asking about whether people had been taught to lead from the body like he had, or whether the feet were used to lead.

Steve, sorry for being confused by your question, and on going to the moon and back.

Oh snap. Someone call the hopital and tell them we need the BURN ward.

Nathan

01-31-2011, 03:55 PM

Steve is looking for the Milonguero secret of 'shooting the feet'..
I don't know about him, but I shoot myself in the foot all the time.

Peaches

02-01-2011, 05:40 AM

This is consistent with my idea of how it works, assuming you are not talking about OE.
Why not if talking about open embrace? Nothing changes with OE--the lead still comes from the man's center, and it's what we feel and respond to. Same as in close embrace.

Peaches

02-01-2011, 05:41 AM

Don't agree, and I've never hit a leader yet with an embellishment. A follower's embellishments typically don't extend in front of her. She's usually in more danger of kicking someone else on the floor around them than her own leader. If a follower is injuring her partner with her embellishments (or anyone else for that matter) then there's a bigger problem than her not knowing where the leader's feet are!
Agree. Although there are times when the leader's foot could potentially be in the way--I'm thinking specifically of an embellishment before a step-over (or whatever you want to call it). But in those cases, if she has good technique, she's collected her feet together and made contact with his "problem foot," so she knows where it is and can avoid it.

Peaches

02-01-2011, 05:51 AM

So in my opinion a lead is not only about the intention through the chest, there are other aspects as well. In this instance the OP appears to suggest excluding the leaders feet, although this was not defined.

If this means the quality of the leaders foot connection to the floor then IMO it should not be ignored. If it was meant that both leaders and followers should not be looking at each others feet then I do agree.How you, as a leader, create what I feel, as a follower, is something I neither really know about or care about. I respond to the lead that I feel through the man's chest/center. That's all. If that comes from something he's doing differently with his feet, if "there are other aspects as well" to that lead through the center, if it's a matter of "the quality of the leaders foot connection to the floor"...I don't know, and don't particularly care.

Your job is to create an effective lead. My job is to follow and interpret. How you do what you do is none of my concern. (And I can't even begin to comment on that, because I know nothing of how to lead.)

Peaches

02-01-2011, 06:02 AM

So you are saying that you will not move your foot until the leader moves his body, even though the leader may already have moved and positioned his foot ready to transfer his weight.

Where the leader gives an intention with his first foot placement to indicate that is where he wants you to place his foot and once this message has been established moves his body to an offset position you will still follow his body?
You have brought up three entirely different concepts, and I'm not sure that you're separating them out in terms of how they affect the follower.

1)The leader moving his foot.--Who cares. He can flail his damn free leg about all he wants. He can position it so it's ready to transfer his weight. It.does.not.matter what he does with his free foot. Because...

2)The leader moving his body.--Ding ding ding! This is what we're feeling. That is when we step. When he moves his body (and, presumably, asks us to go with him) THAT is when we take a step.

3)Giving his intention.--By feeling his intention he can move the follower's free leg. It is what tells us where and how to place our feet, in conjunction with moving his body (transferring weight).

So. Our free leg moves with his intention. We follow the lead that comes from his center. This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself. (What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms? No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)

JohnEm

02-01-2011, 07:48 AM

So. Our free leg moves with his intention. We follow the lead that comes from his center. This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself. (What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms? No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)
You do talk some rubbish.

Tango might have a sprinkling of fairy dust in your eyes but it isn't
that magical that it defies the physics of the bodies and the connection.

I'm not going to cross swords with you any more again today
if I can avoid it but have a look at the Chicho video you like so
much. What's that? He leads with his arms! Yes, quite a lot.

Oh, and by the way, as a leader I wouldn't lead you to any sort
of offset position within the embrace in the way you describe.

newbie

02-01-2011, 08:19 AM

dchester

02-01-2011, 08:27 AM

You do talk some rubbish. Have you taken a look at some of your posts???

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/blink.gif

I'm not going to cross swords with you any more again today if I can avoid it but have a look at the Chicho video you like so
much. What's that? He leads with his arms! Yes, quite a lot.
I think someone doesn't understand the difference between a performance, and social dancing.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/shake.gif

opendoor

02-01-2011, 08:37 AM

..Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)

Speaking frankly, I fear the concept of the center often simply is kind of a smoke grenade to avoid a clear explanation of the lead in detail. And I think I am quite familiar with this concept back then since my TaiJi Chuan days.

José „El Turco“ Brahemcha (one founding father of VU style) once said: You lead with your whole body, head, or arms, or butt, what actually fits best.

dchester

02-01-2011, 08:37 AM

JohnEm

02-01-2011, 08:38 AM

Have you taken a look at some of your posts???

At least I'm prepared to give an opinion, right or wrong,
rather than just sit on the fence and prevaricate.

I think someone doesn't understand the difference between
a performance, and social dancing.
Oh I think I do. And Chicho's is quite a performance,
but not one I admire except for the clever word play
which even more clearly is choreographed.

One point worth making is that as a choreographed performance
you might expect him to use his arms less rather than more
as she probably knows what's coming next.

Has your post actually actually added anything?

dchester

02-01-2011, 08:50 AM

Has your post actually actually added anything?
Nothing is more than a negative.

Maybe you think calling someone's post rubbish is adding something. I don't.

JohnEm

02-01-2011, 09:03 AM

Nothing is more than a negative.
Nothing is an absence of anything.

Maybe you think calling someone's post rubbish is adding something. I don't.
Why not reread my post, and this time read on.
It was one paragraph out of Peaches post I quoted and criticised.

Oh yes, you dismissed my observation about Chicho too.
You can do that, just don't pretend that my comment wasn't qualified.

And why not leap in the next time Peaches uses language much stronger,
ruder and more dismissive than anything I've ever used?

opendoor

02-01-2011, 09:14 AM

What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c7/Ludwig_Wittgenstein_by_Ben_Richards.jpg

newbie

02-01-2011, 09:22 AM

José „El Turco“ Brahemcha (one founding father of VU style) once said: You lead with your whole body, head, or arms, or butt, what actually fits best.

There is no such thing as VU style. And about leading with everything, Tete said that too. And with the belly as well, he added.

dchester

02-01-2011, 09:24 AM

What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c7/Ludwig_Wittgenstein_by_Ben_Richards.jpg

Touche.

Another of his quotes, "Language is a part of our organism and no less complicated than it."

newbie

02-01-2011, 09:29 AM

What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c7/Ludwig_Wittgenstein_by_Ben_Richards.jpg

"A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. "

Better suited for this forum.

JohnEm

02-01-2011, 09:37 AM

There is no such thing as VU style.
Unfortunately there is now!

And about leading with everything, Tete said that too. And with the belly as well, he added.
Interesting you should say that. I was once taught to lead the
little back crosses (what some people call milonguero ochos)
with the stomach and it totally put me off the teachers.

Using the stomach gets around the problem of your partner having
no body tone or "core" but as I don't have a "Tete Tummy" I don't
find it pleasant and nor do those regular partners who have enough
tone and sensitivity to feel the lead from the chest.

Each to their own as usual (or YMMV for across the pond).

chanchan

02-01-2011, 09:55 AM

You have brought up three entirely different concepts, and I'm not sure that you're separating them out in terms of how they affect the follower.

1)The leader moving his foot.--Who cares. He can flail his damn free leg about all he wants. He can position it so it's ready to transfer his weight. It.does.not.matter what he does with his free foot. Because...

2)The leader moving his body.--Ding ding ding! This is what we're feeling. That is when we step. When he moves his body (and, presumably, asks us to go with him) THAT is when we take a step.

3)Giving his intention.--By feeling his intention he can move the follower's free leg. It is what tells us where and how to place our feet, in conjunction with moving his body (transferring weight).

So. Our free leg moves with his intention. We follow the lead that comes from his center. This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself. (What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms? No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)

I must say that this time I totally agree with you. The three points that you mentioned are exactly what I expect from a follower.
The lead comes always from the center, even when the dancers appear to work in opposition, beacuse it is not a real opposition: it is actually a rotation.

opendoor

02-01-2011, 09:57 AM

A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring.

Have you ever met a philosopher who really took part in a discussion? (Don´t mix up discussion with discours) - And have you ever met a boxer who never went into the ring?

There is no such thing as VU style.
That doesn´t insult me. I actually took some privates with Chiche Nuñez (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPy66h-SsSU) but I´m not really into it.

Mario7

02-01-2011, 10:04 AM

Hi Mario, I read that the old-time embellishment called Elevada (sudden yanking of the free foot) can be traced back to shaky grounds, as well.

Yes that's it, as i see it in talking about the man's lead, the Milonguero old guard seem to lift the free leg by jerking it upwards.... then when they shoot it down, the woman has no doubt what, where and when the action occurs... Ricardo Vidort..and Ruben Har.....sp? can be seen doing this..it accents the music, too.:friend:

ant

02-01-2011, 10:16 AM

1)The leader moving his foot.--Who cares. .)

As a follower you might.

He can flail his damn free leg about all he wants.

Only you are talking about flailing legs

He can position it so it's ready to transfer his weight.

Agreed

It.does.not.matter what he does with his free foot. Because...

Not always but sometimes I think it does

2)The leader moving his body.

Sometimes this is a good lead for the follower to affect a weight transfer but just as often not.

--Ding ding ding!

Whatever rings your bell

This is what we're feeling

I assume you are talking about his body and if this is so I agree.

When he moves his body

I agree that is normally a signal for a follower to follow but not always

(and, presumably, asks us to go with him)

Sometimes but quite often not the case

THAT is when we take a step.

If you feel that is the intention yes but your step/or not taking a step is often led without reference to the leader taking/or not taking a the step.

3)Giving his intention.--By feeling his intention he can move the follower's free leg.

Agreed if that is how the follower reads it.

It is what tells us where and how to place our feet, in conjunction with moving his body (transferring weight).

Sometimes. I would suggest to you that a follower often effects a weight transfer without the leader doing a weight transfer and vice verse.

So. Our free leg moves with his intention.

It quite often does.

We follow the lead that comes from his center.

Generally yes

This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself.

It suppsoe it can be done that way but that is not what I had in mind.

(What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms?

Where did I mention arms.

What I am saying is that I place my foot the follower feels where my foot is placed once I feel that she has accepted that as a lead I will move my foot further along and we end up offset. Hence as a follower you are conscious of where my original foot placement was and following in relation to that position

No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center,
As I have said not always the case. For instance if I feel that the follower I am dancing with follows my read of the music that is suffient. If the follower is reading my intention from my connection with the floor that is suffient. If I then have to use body leads I will. If I need a stronger frame to lead I will. In other words I believe in leading using the least invasive method that the follower can read.
regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE.
I have looked through this thread and I cannot see that I have made one reference to using the arms. Beyiond saying, in fact the whole point of my posts has been the very opposite, it is probably best that I do not expand on this point you have raised about the arms further.

It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center

As I have said not always and not preferably. I would rather we read read the music together or you felt my connection to the floor. This is by far the most pleasurable way of dancing if I have a good connection with the follower through the music and floor and we are just walking with the music.

Peaches

02-01-2011, 10:21 AM

Ok, so we disagree. We'll just have to agree on that point, if nothing else.

I have made my point the best I am able. I have nothing more to add.

(Aside: God almighty, I've come to hate this bloody forum. Why did I come back and try to get involved? Good lord. Enough of this.)

bordertangoman

02-01-2011, 10:25 AM

As I have said not always the case. For instance if I feel that the follower I am dancing with follows my read of the music that is suffient. If the follower is reading my intention from my connection with the floor that is suffient. If I then have to use body leads I will. If I need a stronger frame to lead I will. In other words I believe in leading using the least invasive method that the follower can read.
.

I myself follow the Salvador Dali school of leading* where he advocates that simultaneous orgasm can be acheived by two lovers fully clothed, at a distance, merely by looking into each others eyes; cabaceo, schmabaceo! by the time the follower has met me on the floor she knows exactly what I'm going to do for the next 2 minutes and forty seconds...

:tongue:

*from his book Hidden Lives

pygmalion

02-01-2011, 10:26 AM

(Aside: God almighty, I've come to hate this bloody forum. Why did I come back and try to get involved? Good lord. Enough of this.)

I am intrigued by this (but not intrigued enough to go back and read a couple pages lol)

Hang in there P. I've seen you contribute so much valuable insight and support to others in the AT forum.

Hang in there.

AT is one of those disciplines. People are passionate about what they believe. Eh. It makes for interesting conversations, where interesting = sometimes annoying.

Walk away and come back when you're ready.

Meanwhile, please go over to the recipes thread and teach me how to make pancakes. :lol:

bordertangoman

02-01-2011, 10:44 AM

ant

02-01-2011, 10:51 AM

While I think it's beneficial for a follower to know where the leader's feet are, that's only because it lets her be aware of what the couple is doing as a whole and have a greater appreciation for the dance she's half responsible for producing. What you are talking about is...
it sounds very much like two people dancing together in a very pleasurable way.

well, let's just say it's not the way people lead and follow in tango!

This seems to be a contradiction to what you said above.

The lead for this movement (i.e. the follower sticking her free leg out) is a tiny impulse in the direction the leader wants her to place her foot, without him taking a step and doing a weight transfer.

With regard to the impulse you are referring to, where is this impluse coming from and what form does it take?

As soon as he's sent this impulse, he can then move his own free leg/foot however he chooses (in the same direction or any other).
If executed properly, this creates the illusion of simultaneity.

I need to know your answer above before I can comment on this.

This is the same fundamental technique used in walking, just broken down into its constituent parts.

I am not sure about this. I beleive that directionality can be conveyed in the relationship of the leaders weight and where in his foot this goes. Whereas in walking the direction is already set and as a leader I have different priorities in what I want to convey.

Everything is felt through your partner's body. As a leader, I feel my partner's feet through her body, just as she feels the lead through mine.
This is a truism but it is not neccessarily giving an accurate picture of everything that is being felt. For instance the music and the lack of foot movement in the leaders body and do you include the connection with the floor of the free leg in this.

Good dancing has nothing at all to do with sight and little to do with pushing: it's about signal transduction, plain and simple.

I never mentioned sight. You will need to elaborate further what you mean by pushing. I would suggest your connection in the floor often manifests as a push from it and the quality of that push conveys a number of different things which I would categorise as signal transduction (I am assuming this means inducing meaning from the non verbal and non visual messaging passing between dance partners. Are you suggesting signal transduction only comes through the chest? If so I believe this is rather limiting

For instance: he creates a larger impulse so that she places her foot farther (sinking down slightly makes this message even clearer). Then he takes a shorter step than the one he led her to take. That's one way... there are many others

But what is the signal that the follower is inducing from. The push from the floor, a movement from the chest or the horizontal movement of the leader. I would suggest that all three come into play but the more you can use the first and the less you use the second and even more the third as a method of leading the better in my opinion. But even better still just allow the music to move you both.

ant

02-01-2011, 10:57 AM

simultaneous orgasm can be acheived by two lovers fully clothed, at a distance, merely by looking into each others eyes;

If I could achieve this as well as you........

Zoopsia59

02-01-2011, 11:00 AM

made contact with his "problem foot," so she knows where it is and can avoid it.

And of course, it is the leader's responsibility to place his "problem foot" so that all that occurs naturally as she executes her steps. I've had leaders place the foot for a Parada either in a bad place or (more likely) at the wrong time so that I trip over it rather than have it stop me. If the follower is having to find his foot to make the contact in a Parada, then something is wrong. I think he is supposed to find her's.

ant

02-01-2011, 11:08 AM

I've had leaders place the foot for a Parada either in a bad place or (more likely) at the wrong time so that I trip over it rather than have it stop me. If the follower is having to find his foot to make the contact in a Parada, then something is wrong. I think he is supposed to find her's.

Agreed

Mario7

02-01-2011, 11:13 AM

..can't we all just be sweeeeeeeeeet? or is this behaviour only appropriate for Mexicanos?....and Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=734224171

opendoor

02-01-2011, 11:39 AM

A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who..
Don´t mix discussion with discours

In this respect we´ve only got one
cabaceo, schmabaceo!

Zoopsia59

02-01-2011, 11:52 AM

Yep, his moving in another direction and leading with his center are not possible at the same time. One of my teachers explains that to reach an offset position the leader initiates the movement with his body/center/whatever-just-not-the-arms, which initiates the follower's movement in the given direction. Then at some point the leader moves in another direction while his hands keep accompanying the follower to the original direction.

Yes, this is how I think of it as well.

You are describing several things that happen in sequence, not a single move (as clearly you know by the way you described it)

The leader DOES indicate with a body lead the direction he wants the follower to go. AFTER she starts heading in that direction, he changes his own direction thus achieving a result of the two of them going opposite of each other (and to an observer, it probably looks simultaneous). But it is not simultaneous. It is (as you describe) TWO separate movements by the leader... one is the lead for her, the other is his own movement.

The follower's job is to stay with him unless he prevents it. In the case I think you are describing, he has effectively prevented her from staying with him through the timing of his switch. It comes too late for her to reverse her intention/ momentum. If timing isn't enough on it's own (and it often isn't except with advanced leaders) he will probably use his arms, not to lead the move per se (because she is already moving as he wishes) but to continue her moving that way by preventing her from changing. And, as you say, allowing his arms to continue with her in the direction he already indicated for her.

This type of move works best, and is most comfortable for the follower, when she gets the clear lead from his body first. Too often the leader skips that part and uses only his arms to push her one way while he sends himself the other way. That's not so great.

So while someone can explain the correct method as "leading with his arms", I personally would make a distinction between using his arms to prevent or follow her movement (that he has already indicated) vs using his arms to initialize or propel her movement.

Obviously, there are times when this first type of use of the arms is required. (I'm thinking especially of those back sacadas where the guy rotates and turns his back to the follower to reach behind him for a sacada coming to her front. If she weren't prevented from following his chest, she wouldn't be in the right place.)

IMO, it is best to bring up these uses of the arms specifically in context rather than ever speak of leading with the arms. Far too often, beginners and even intermediate leaders (and leaders who have been doing tango for years but who still make fundamental mistakes) overuse their arms and try to lead or steer with the arms when it isn't necessary. For that reason, I usually say general things like "you don't need your arms to lead" or "You shouldn't lead with your arms". MOST of the time, it's true. The exceptions are rather specific instances, not general practice.

Zoopsia59

02-01-2011, 12:06 PM

I would rather we read read the music together or you felt my connection to the floor. This is by far the most pleasurable way of dancing if I have a good connection with the follower through the music and floor and we are just walking with the music.

I'm not at all clear on how the follower knows where to go this way? Are you saying that you and she both hear (for instance) a molinete (or some other move) in the music, so she does that without you specifically leading it?

I'm also wondering how much following you've done yourself? You have very strong opinions on how followers should be thinking about the relationship to the leader, but most of the followers who have responded on this thread do not agree with what you are saying. Are these conclusions you've come to through your own experience of following? (forgive me if you are primarily a follower... I sometimes get posters mixed up) Or are you trying to apply how you as a leader relate to your role and technique to the follower's viewpoint of the leader?

dchester

02-01-2011, 01:33 PM

Yes that's it, as i see it in talking about the man's lead, the Milonguero old guard seem to lift the free leg by jerking it upwards.... then when they shoot it down, the woman has no doubt what, where and when the action occurs... Ricardo Vidort..and Ruben Har.....sp? can be seen doing this..it accents the music, too.:friend:
The accenting the music stuff, I get. I'm less clear on how it's helpful with respect to the lead. By the time his foot hits the ground, it's too late to be a useful lead. Possibly the initial movement of him stepping down could convey some information, but I only (on rare occasion) use this for accenting a beat, (and have wondered if it goofs up my lead, or hurts the comfort of the follower).

JohnEm

02-01-2011, 01:43 PM

The accenting the music stuff, I get. I'm less clear on how it's helpful with respect to the lead. By the time his foot hits the ground, it's too late to be a useful lead. Possibly the initial movement of him stepping down could convey some information, but I only (on rare occasion) use this for accenting a beat, (and have wondered if it goofs up my lead, or hurts the comfort of the follower).
If you change the way you walk, whatever the change,and you're connected
at the chest your partner will feel the change even before your foot hits
the ground. Even though I'm unclear exactly what Mario is referring to,
your partner will feel the preparation, the lift and the strike even though
she won't know exactly what it going on. So she will feel the change in
emphasis and hopefully join you in that change if you provide that intention.
That is usually the point of it as a response to the music.

dchester

02-01-2011, 01:55 PM

Speaking frankly, I fear the concept of the center often simply is kind of a smoke grenade to avoid a clear explanation of the lead in detail. And I think I am quite familiar with this concept back then since my TaiJi Chuan days.

José „El Turco“ Brahemcha (one founding father of VU style) once said: You lead with your whole body, head, or arms, or butt, what actually fits best.
I think you have a point (as I don't subscribe to the view that the arms can't be used), but some of the other posts seemed to say that leading the followers free foot requires the leader doing things with his foot or arms. If they are simply saying that's their preference, then of course the point can't be argued. Now since I suspect I don't fully understand ant's point (or what type of move he's talking about that requires this), maybe it's possible that he doesn't understand what I and some other are saying.

In any case, here's an example of a leader moving the follower's free foot without using his hands or feet to do it. Maybe others could provide video of what they are talking about when they seem to be saying it is needed. The example I'm referring to starts at around 2:22.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ceBusDuyj0&hl=en_US&fs=1&start=142&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ceBusDuyj0&hl=en_US&fs=1&start=142&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

BTW, A note to the MODs: It looks like this site is not setup to allow embedding of youtube videos using the (newer) iframe tags (html code) that youtube provides now. I had to convert the html to the older object tags, to embed this video.

Subliminal

02-01-2011, 02:12 PM

One kind of amusing thing that I've noticed since learning to follow is how it changes my perception of steps. As a leader, I am used to thinking in terms of instant reaction. I move this way, she moves this way. It seemed so obvious to me as a leader, she must know what's going on, she did it! Then I started learning to follow, and I realized which parts actually come across. For instance, I thought it was obvious to the follower when we switched to cross system. But then following, I discovered I wouldn't conciously register cross system untl we've already completed a couple ochos. :-D

What registers to me as a follower is "noise". Am I getting a clear direction? Is there something extra confusing the signal? As Daniel Trenner once told me in a class, as far as the followers are concerned, the leader has four responsibilities:

Go.
Stop.
Left.
Right.

The follower handles most of the work. The leader's primary responsibility is safety and navigation. This all starts from a clear signal. So how does a leader produce a clear signal? He reduces "noise". We've talked a lot about how the leader should step in this thread, but if we try to distill the comments, it really comes down to Stability. Noise is caused by extra muscle movements, above that which is needed to convey the lead. After a leader is able to reduce the noise they are producing through their body, then they can start deliberately adding it back in as a musical element. But it must be DELIBERATE.

Subliminal

02-01-2011, 02:16 PM

Re: The follower's free foot.

I agree with newbie, to move in a different direction requires two movements. But... I will take it one step farther. Every step requires two movements. First, the leader directs the follower's free leg, then he follows her where she needs to go. If he chooses to follow her in a different direction, that is how you end offset.

JohnEm

02-01-2011, 02:20 PM

What registers to me as a follower is "noise". . . . . . .

The follower handles most of the work. The leader's primary responsibility is safety and navigation. This all starts from a clear signal. So how does a leader produce a clear signal? He reduces "noise". We've talked a lot about how the leader should step in this thread, but if we try to distill the comments, it really comes down to Stability. Noise is caused by extra muscle movements, above that which is needed to convey the lead. After a leader is able to reduce the noise they are producing through their body, then they can start deliberately adding it back in as a musical element. But it must be DELIBERATE.
Beautifully clear explanation!

AndaBien

02-01-2011, 02:29 PM

...The leader's primary responsibility is safety and navigation. This all starts from a clear signal. So how does a leader produce a clear signal? He reduces "noise". We've talked a lot about how the leader should step in this thread, but if we try to distill the comments, it really comes down to Stability. Noise is caused by extra muscle movements, above that which is needed to convey the lead. After a leader is able to reduce the noise they are producing through their body, then they can start deliberately adding it back in as a musical element. But it must be DELIBERATE.

I think this is a good explanation.

When I began learning tango I would often ask teachers how to lead various steps. (If I didn't know that, I didn't know the step.) Their answers were often, "Well, you just lead it". I didn't get that for a long time, but I gradually figured out that that was the correct answer.

Sometimes I think of leading as pushing a shopping cart through a crowded store. All the leader has to do is establish a good connection and guide it in the direction he wants to go. (You could even do it to the background music, if you wanted to). No one would have to ask where to put their feet. Of course, the leader would have to focus attention on the cart, and not just give it signals as to where to go.

dchester

02-01-2011, 02:32 PM

The leader's primary responsibility is safety and navigation. This all starts from a clear signal. So how does a leader produce a clear signal? He reduces "noise". We've talked a lot about how the leader should step in this thread, but if we try to distill the comments, it really comes down to Stability. Noise is caused by extra muscle movements, above that which is needed to convey the lead. After a leader is able to reduce the noise they are producing through their body, then they can start deliberately adding it back in as a musical element. But it must be DELIBERATE.
I've always felt that the leaders main responsibilities were clarity (of the lead), and comfort (of the follower). Those actually relate pretty close to your navigation (clarity) and safety (comfort).

bordertangoman

02-02-2011, 05:01 AM

. So how does a leader produce a clear signal? He reduces "noise". We've talked a lot about how the leader should step in this thread, but if we try to distill the comments, it really comes down to Stability. Noise is caused by extra muscle movements, above that which is needed to convey the lead. After a leader is able to reduce the noise they are producing through their body, then they can start deliberately adding it back in as a musical element. But it must be DELIBERATE.

this is interesting...last night I managed to creat my own noise...I had a mouthful of cake
when a pugliese track came on and i wanted to dance, but i found I couldnt chew and listen to the music and dance at the same time......so I chose slow movements to swallow the cake then everything got much much better....

LoveTango

02-06-2011, 06:22 AM

opendoor

02-06-2011, 10:08 AM

It's interesting that you mentioned Taiji Chuan. I was told by a friend that having learned Taiji before must have helped me with Tango.

Hi, I don´t know what it means concerning the follower´s role. But for me it means the loose and untensed muscles of the arms and shoulder, then the core projection to somewhere in my breast (in TaiJi the center is located deeper), and finally the independent hip and leg section with it´s deep muscle layers that alway seeks for grounding and foundation.
If in TaiJi someone strikes and hits you, you try to discharge and conduct the energy through the hip into the ground. The same with volcadas, the woman does not transfer the energy onto arms or shoulders, its transfered through spine and upper body into the ground. As with colgadas: the idea is not to equilibrate the (horizontal) transfugal forces, but to stretch oneself and to imagine a linear line from your foot up to your head.

LoveTango

02-09-2011, 09:11 AM

Hi, I don´t know what it means concerning the follower´s role. But for me it means the loose and untensed muscles of the arms and shoulder, then the core projection to somewhere in my breast (in TaiJi the center is located deeper), and finally the independent hip and leg section with it´s deep muscle layers that alway seeks for grounding and foundation.
If in TaiJi someone strikes and hits you, you try to discharge and conduct the energy through the hip into the ground. The same with volcadas, the woman does not transfer the energy onto arms or shoulders, its transfered through spine and upper body into the ground. As with colgadas: the idea is not to equilibrate the (horizontal) transfugal forces, but to stretch oneself and to imagine a linear line from your foot up to your head.

I didn't think this deep. I thought it gives me better sense of balance.