Remembering Routines and Choreography

[pygmalion]

How do you do it? I was just at another web site where an engineer (it figures!) has formulated his own system of dance notation to aid in remembering dance steps. Interesting. I wonder if anybody's out there using it. Hmm.

That said, every routing I've ever done has involved at least six or seven iterations, because nobody ever remembers exactly what we did last time. Writing it down in words gets you close, but no cookie.

Any tips or pointers? What system do you use, if any?

[Chris Stratton]

I generally don't bother too much... it's only been fairly rarely that I've tried to do a fixed block of new material big enough that memorizing it takes substantial effort seperate from simply doing it enough times to make some progress on the technical issues. There's also the relaxing freedom of knowing that if I do space out or forget I will by reflex lead something moderately sensible, and perhaps even legal.

In general though, I do think it's easier to remember things if you can break them into pieces you already know. Instead of 3 to 6 actions, you have a figure name. Or in the context of smooth or open variations, sometimes something that at least resembles a familiar figure - "and now the hover cross thingy"

[Vince A]

Memorizing routines comes fairly easily for me . . . I learned how to memorize quickly from being . . . God, I hate to admit it . . . "a line dancer!"

Same thing for doing patterns to a specific dance . . I can usually see someone dancing right next to me . . . they do a cool pattern that I've never done before . . . and immediately, I try it and in most cases . . . can do it right then!

I've also been doing this for quite a few years!

I know a certain Pro who teaches his students by counts . . .
1-2-3-4-5-6, 2-2-3-4-5-6, 3-2-3-4-5-6, 4-2-3-4-5-6, etc . . . and on every count the head, the arms, the eyes, the elbows, the up, the down, the toes pointing, . . . everything, etc has to be executed on that count . . . and that is how you memorize his choreography. YEOW!

[Hank]

I've run across lots of people who want to write things down. I can only assume that their brains are wired differently from mine. For me, words in dancing mean very little, and dancing is purely a visual, feeling, and musical experience. I probably know the names of 5% of the patterns that I do. Even in a dance like international standard, where every pattern is laid out in the manual, I know the names of maybe 4 patterns/dance.

Upon first learning choreography, I videotape it, and then watch the video a few times until it's firmly in my mind.

[mamboqueen]

When I first started learning to dance (socially), we learned steps. So, for instance, in a one-hour group class, we would learn two (i.e.,) swing steps in one night. They weren't particularly focused on technique (which caused problems for me later on), so it wasn't that hard to learn that way. When I got to my present studio, and they started with routines, it wasn't too difficult to remember the routine because the lower-level stuff was frequently a series of the "steps" I had previously learned.

Now that I am learning latin and (soon) standard, it is different because the technique is different, as are the steps and in some cases, the timing. So, I feel like my brain is ingesting a lot more and I go back and forth between "do I learn the routine, step by step and then focus on the technique"? or, "do I focus on the technique and follow along until I commit the routine to memory?".

[Vince A]

Hank,
Thanks for reminding me . . . video taping IS A MUST!

Although sometimes it can prove harmful, most times it definitely helps the memorization processing . . .

How can it be harmful??? I video tape our routines . . . and watched them over and over and over and over and over . . . then replayed them over and over in my head at bedtime . . . then everything is in the mind and muscle memory is the only thing left to train.

Two weeks before the comp, my Pro says . . . "Vince, I sightly changed the routine in this one part, and we need to . . . ." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Now I panic . . .

[Chris Stratton]

Two weeks before the comp, my Pro says . . . "Vince, I sightly changed the routine in this one part, and we need to . . . ." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Now I panic . . .

Just nod your head and then lead whatever you want when it counts ;-)
Then you'll see who panics!

[Laura]

If I'm always practicing with a partner (or dancing with my teacher), then I don't have trouble remembering the routines because I can remember by "feel" and also it's the guy's job to lead so who am I to say if he forgot something or make a mistake or changed it on purpose? However, since my partner is out of commission for two more months and I'm only dancing with my teacher, I need to practice, and the only way I can practice right now is solo. So I have to know my routine completely, and understand the transitions, and timings, etc etc. I write them down...if something has a name I use it, otherwise I give it a name so I can recall what it is. I'll also write down the timing if it's syncopated, and other notes such as "turning to shadow" or "make sure I come out on the left foot" etc etc etc. It helps me a lot when I go to practice, and after I've practiced enough I can do it all from memory and by solo feel. It takes a while though...I'm working through my Pro/Am Smooth routines and although the routines are fairly simple (let's say Silver level), putting it all together isn't since I'm relatively new at Smooth.

[cl5814]

During the dance camp i attended recently most of us were part of routines that we performed the last night of the camp. It was interesting how much you can learn in just 4 hours. Our cha-cha routine was a bit chaotic partly because the moves didn't flow naturally for me, the group ended with a short routine of less than a minute. Our tango routine were 1:40 min and things flowed nicely, we repeated part of our routine which helped as well. The instructors had a lot to do with it......... We had our tango routine mostly within the first two hours and the last two hours were spend rehearsing.
We received written notes on our tango routine from our instructor and she even wrote the same words she talked us through in class during the routine. The proverbial names for steps you guys mentioned. Worked wonders.

[dancin_feet]

Committing choreography to memory has always been relatively easy for me. I don't know why or how it just sticks in my mind, but it does. We have had situations where something in a routine has been changed to make it work better, and from one week to the next, I am the only one out of the group that remembers it!

I think having a piece of music that means something and isn't repetitive can help a lot. If you choreograph to music that section of the song becomes a particular step and makes it easier to remember. For showcases, the instructors usually write down any choreography at the end of the lesson, to both help them remember what was done (with 8 routines to choreograph, my instructor is going to need some gentle prompting this time around!) and also if anything happens and another instructor has to take over the routine, the basic outline is there for reference. Words don't mean a lot to me, I remember the movement.

Choreographing a routine to be done to any music would be more difficult as you don't have the hints in the music to remind you.

[Kitty]

Two weeks before the comp, my Pro says . . . "Vince, I sightly changed the routine in this one part, and we need to . . . ." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Now I panic . . .

Just nod your head and then lead whatever you want when it counts ;-)
Then you'll see who panics!

:P :P :P

[Sania]

Whenever I get new choreography, I videotape it. Typically, if I practice soon after the lesson, I'll remember it, but if not, I can refer to the tape. This doesn't typically cause a problem if something changes, because I tend to think of the change as a section that is replacing an old section, if that make sense

Sania

[Vince A]

Two weeks before the comp, my Pro says . . . "Vince, I sightly changed the routine in this one part, and we need to . . . ." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Now I panic . . .

Just nod your head and then lead whatever you want when it counts ;-)
Then you'll see who panics!
Been there, done that whe she forgot the routine . . . L&F all the way through the last minute of the 90 second routine!!! Don't know if she actually hit the panic button, but she did get very pale!

[Chris Stratton]

Been there, done that whe she forgot the routine . . . L&F all the way through the last minute of the 90 second routine!!! Don't know if she actually hit the panic button, but she did get very pale!

Okay, now step 2 is to do it a bit differently every time...

[fascination]

okay guys...I've got 4 open smooth routines, at least sort of (some of it remains in the not done fiddling around with it stages)..but at any rate, it's alot of new stuff...what is some of your learned wisdom about how to approach new choreo particularly open stuff...how much of it would you work on in a day?...do you walk through it first for recall? ...and about how long do you think you need to work new routines before you try them on a comp floor?

[samina]

okay guys...I've got 4 open smooth routines, at least sort of (some of it remains in the not done fiddling around with it stages)..but at any rate, it's alot of new stuff...what is some of your learned wisdom about how to approach new choreo particularly open stuff...how much of it would you work on in a day?...do you walk through it first for recall? ...and about how long do you think you need to work new routines before you try them on a comp floor?

Lol...I'm so not one for good advice on this subject...have been pretty quick to throw in new stuff without consolidation. Just assembled a full open waltz routine this week and we'll compete with it next week. My strategy: focus on staying in the moment and on dancing principles all the way thru the routine.

But that's exciting stuff, fasc. Do you guys have a target launch point for the routines?

[etp777]

I like to walk through it, have it written down (for me to look at later), then for actual dancing try to break it up into smaller parts, whether it's one side, X measures, whatever.

[fascination]

Lol...I'm so not one for good advice on this subject...have been pretty quick to throw in new stuff without consolidation. Just assembled a full open waltz routine this week and we'll compete with it next week. My strategy: focus on staying in the moment and on dancing principles all the way thru the routine.

But that's exciting stuff, fasc. Do you guys have a target launch point for the routines?
if it was standard, i.e remaining in closed and/or just a few components that were somewhat new, I would be inclined to view it the same as you, Sam...and ultimately the principles will be the focus which is why I would like to get the basic gyst of the choreo under my belt so that we can focus on what is truly important...as for timing...it is hoped that it will show up sometime in the Fall...but not unless it is worth showing

[samina]

if it was standard, i.e remaining in closed and/or just a few components that were somewhat new, I would be inclined to view it the same as you, Sam...
Yes, definitely different for smooth and latin due to the separation. We just finished assembling bronze latin routines, but turns out we're launching latin at silver, so am hoping 8 weeks is enuf time to pull that together. I'm used to going on the floor for standard with "whatever" in my head, and now it's a whole new level of ownership with latin. Guess I'm gonna hafta know what I'm actually doing, lol.

[cornutt]

I'm envious of people who can throw something together during the week and then dance it in a comp that weekend. I need several weeks of good solid practice. For me, it absolutely has to be committed to muscle memory so that when I dance it in the comp, I can be thinking about musicality, presentation and floorcraft as needed. If I have to think too much about mechanics, it won't place well.

I don't usually "walk" routines as such. When I'm starting to learn a new routine, I will dance it through without the music, a bit at a time, just to get nailed down what goes where. Once it starts to come togehter in my mind, I can start doing it with music. There's a check at this point to make sure it basically fits -- it's not too long, it stays in sequence with a typical piece of music for that dance, etc. This is also where I want to think about long and short sides, what should be done where depending on how the judges and audience might be seated in the venues you expect to dance in. After that, it's practice, practice, practice. Run through and identify any trouble spots, smooth those over, run through it again, etc.

I used to try to write routines down, but I've found it easier these days to just tape a run-through without music, verbally annotating things as needed. The video I'm finding is actually very helpful, not only for remembering things, but for checking the presentation. Sometimes you run into sequences that might feel good to dance, but don't look so good to the observer.

I'm currently working on a show routine. This is the sixth week, and it's just now that I've gotten where there's a reasonably good probability that I can dance it all the way through without any errors. However, it's also about four minutes long, so it takes me more practice to get it together than a 90-second comp routine.

[Debra]

I'm like Cornutt on this issue. when I am learning new choreography I need several weeks of practice before I am ready for a public debut.

My approach is each day to stary with a segment of the choreo, walk it through once and then dance it a few times. I then move on to other stuff and at the end revisit the choreo one more time. After a few/several days I add the next sequence, lather, rinse and repeat.

[mamboqueen]

fasc - I'm probably about 6 months into learning open routines. I tape them right off the bat and constantly look at the tapes to help memorization. We progress through the routines by first running through the choreography over and over again to the point of memorization. Then after maybe 3 lessons of doing that, we start to break the routine down into segments and start working on the technique/connections in each section. Then after a few weeks, I tape again for review.

You will probably get yours down quicker because you take more lessons per week than I do. But, I started working on one routine and had it "floor ready" (cough, cough, if that term will ever exist for me) in about 2 months (although I still did a comp in silver and training for that kept the progress on the open routine a bit lagging). In about 3 months after that, I have two more to the point of putting them out there, and I'm hoping by fall I'll be comfortable enough with all five.

I think this is going to be very different for everyone, though. We all learn at different speeds, and I'm really nitpicky about the routines being good enough so as not to completely embarrass myself. I tend to learn choreography quickly, but technique rather slowly.

Edit -- I purchased this little camera:

www. amazon.com/Video-Ultra-Camcorder-60-Minutes-Black/dp/B000V1PXMI/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1210340822&sr=8-1

and find it extremely helpful in progress/review.

[samina]

I'm envious of people who can throw something together during the week and then dance it in a comp that weekend. I need several weeks of good solid practice. For me, it absolutely has to be committed to muscle memory so that when I dance it in the comp, I can be thinking about musicality, presentation and floorcraft as needed. If I have to think too much about mechanics, it won't place well.



that's understandable... you're the lead, which is so different from following. if i were in your shoes, i'd feel the same WRT to a new standard routine, that's for sure.

[samina]

i think taping must be so helpful... thanks for mentioning that, MQ & cornutt... am going to do that.

i've done that for showcase routines, but never comp routines.

[LucyDiamond]

Taping is VERY useful. I like to convert my lesson videos and put them on my iPod. That way I can look at them anytime.

[mamboqueen]

Well, I figure if I tape every week vs. every comp, I'm going to have an easier time ridding myself of bad/ingrained habits (like settling my butt instead of my hip). It's easier for me to fix a problem if it hasn't been around too long. I email the vid to my pro so he can look at it and see things that he can't see (or doesn't feel) while dancing with me.

Edit: Lucy - good idea. I also am starting to do a "recap" of the lesson at the end and have that taped, and look at it over and over. Honestly, I hate to have to spend money re-learning things. It is much more helpful to me to have video than notes as I am a visual learner.

[fascination]

I definately must get a video...now that we don't have a studio to call home and neither pro nor I is in possession of a camera...it is getting dicey...thanks guys....

[jjs914]

I like to walk through it, have it written down (for me to look at later), then for actual dancing try to break it up into smaller parts, whether it's one side, X measures, whatever.

I do this too. Kind of a quick review of the routine and then focus on either specific pieces of steps or specific aspects of the dancing.

Taping every lesson is a great idea. I don't currently do this. We do take all our comps though to review and work on anything that doesn't seem to be working.

[Larinda McRaven]

I like to get a good understanding of the routine before I try fixing anything.

I would rather be able to walk through the whole thing simply, before trying to actually dance any of it correctly. That way I get a good feel for each part and its relation to the whole.

[LucyDiamond]

I agree Larinda. Until my feet know what to do, forget about the rest of my body. :wink:

[fascination]

I like to get a good understanding of the routine before I try fixing anything.

I would rather be able to walk through the whole thing simply, before trying to actually dance any of it correctly. That way I get a good feel for each part and its relation to the whole.
lol...GOD bless you...;).....update is...light at the end of the tunnel is beginning to appear in the waltz...the otehr three are still a murky mystery...but I will take my baby accomplishment and work on it

[cornutt]

I definately must get a video...now that we don't have a studio to call home and neither pro nor I is in possession of a camera...it is getting dicey...thanks guys....


A lot of the digital still cameras on the market now will also shoot MPEGs. That's what I'm using these days.

[fascination]

in english plz :)

[Larinda McRaven]

photo camera also records video.

[Larinda McRaven]

I agree Larinda. Until my feet know what to do, forget about the rest of my body. :wink:

Yeah, I really like it when a student gets a new routine with me. There are a few lessons where there is no pressure to actually DO anything other than walk it out. I don't expect or require them to really accomplish anything other than basic memorization. Then a few lessons later I start to get more demanding and snipy... ;)

[Larinda McRaven]

update is...light at the end of the tunnel is beginning to appear in the waltz...

that is a good feeling!

[Easy]

Hopefully you've kept some of the things that felt great and were you and your partner...great and coming natural or signature moves. Walk through them. Make sure you know the timings. When you can do them yourself, you're ready.

My partner and I have gone through some changes. It's usually something here or something there. Can be tough at times, but if it's for the better, we usually try them right away at comps.

[fascination]

Yeah, I really like it when a student gets a new routine with me. There are a few lessons where there is no pressure to actually DO anything other than walk it out. I don't expect or require them to really accomplish anything other than basic memorization. Then a few lessons later I start to get more demanding and snipy... ;)lol...well here's the thing...that isn't even neccessary with me, b/c once I start getting a clue I start getting mad at myself for not executing something at a higher level...BUT....I simply cannot do it while walking in the dark...at anyrate, yesterday was the second such lesson on the waltz and I was beginning to start putting in important technical aspects and I can begin to see how it all strings together now....i't going to be ann interesting summer...btw...you? demanding and snippy?...I don't beleive it;)

[fascination]

photo camera also records video.
:rolleyes:yea...but...well...I dunno what to get or how to hook it to other stuff...and all that jazz...must go to best buy with my best eyelash batting and seek help

[Ballroom Dru]

Fascination-

You must have at least one geek guy dancer friend somewhere in the area who can help you with that.

For myself I have found, in open smooth, if I can't "mark" the routines slowly without music, I can't really dance them. When I can mark a routine without thinking about it much, then I can actually dance them. Any time I get new notes I have to go back to marking the new note section until it is in my body. Then I can dance it again.

[fascination]

nope...no geeky men dancers around me...and dh..uber geek...is never available for those things

[Tenehill]

I am far from the competition world, but one question interests me.

When a ballroom dance competitor (or a competitress) has prepared a choreographed sequence, a rather complex and long one, how would he usually memorize it? Can he, for example, write down the whole sequence in terms of figures and their variations, without actually dancing the sequence through? Can he visualize himself and the partner in the room doing the whole sequence?

How do the ballet dancers learn their parts? Can they spell out the sequence without dancing?

Thanks - just curious.

[fascination]

when I have new choreo...I first have pro video it for me, I then watch it and tranpose what he is doing onto paper in my own language complete with as much nuance on timing and head position etc...I then walk through the thing several times...with the notes in my hand...I with then write an abbreviated version glossing over areas I have a grasp on but leaving more detail for any trouble spots...I will put those cards in my pocket and dance some more...I will do that every day until I own the choreo allowing me to devote the lesson to how to execute it properly and not wasting good money on being helped to memorize what I am doing...

[emeralddancer]

For me it is dancing the sequence and/or patterns several times. choreography for me is simple to learn and "get".

Now to know the names of those steps or sequence of steps, that I can not get at all. (YET!)

I am more an action do-er, than a knowledge book do-er. (does this make sense?)

Once I have the general basics down (pattern of the dance) , then I can go back and work on the technical things, like exact head position, arms, styling, etc ...

[Tenehill]

when I have new choreo...I first have pro video it for me, I then watch it and tranpose what he is doing onto paper in my own language complete with as much nuance on timing and head position etc...I then walk through the thing several times...with the notes in my hand...I with then write an abbreviated version glossing over areas I have a grasp on but leaving more detail for any trouble spots...I will put those cards in my pocket and dance some more...I will do that every day until I own the choreo allowing me to devote the lesson to how to execute it properly and not wasting good money on being helped to memorize what I am doing...


What a huge work! Do they appreciate?

But tell me - after all the preparation and before the execution, are you ready to tell the whole sequence by heart without dancing?



I see, emeralddancer: you know the choreography but cannot name the steps. Hence, if you want to transfer it to your student or partner, you have to demonstrate, or write some sort of verbal description so that the student can learn by himself?

[fascination]

oh sure...I can tell you the steps and the timing and the detail...that is the whole point...whethr or not they appreciate it is not terribly relevant to me...I mean I assume they do...but I do it so that I can be confident and maximize the productivity of my lessons but yes, I am a nineteen dancer and I could recite all of my routines

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Threads merged :)

[emeralddancer]

I see, emeralddancer: you know the choreography but cannot name the steps. Hence, if you want to transfer it to your student or partner, you have to demonstrate, or write some sort of verbal description so that the student can learn by himself?

I AM the student. LOL Very much the student. Novice. (well in ballroom that is) LOL


If it were Ballet ... different story ... over 14yrs under my belt and THAT I do know the names and can write it out, etc. (if I were to teach it.)

I will be proficient with it all in Ballroom one day. :D

[Tenehill]

nope...no geeky men dancers around me...and dh..uber geek...is never available for those things

Well, some are here.

There are currently two good options: to buy a videocamera (they call them camcoders) with internal hard drive or solid-state hard drive or flash memory, or to buy a photocamera with video capabilities.

The videocameara will satisfy all your needs and has whatever is required. It is, though, 2-3 times heavier than photocamera, slightly more expensive, and still shots taken with it are not great. Examples are FS-100 Flash Memory camcoder made by Canon and GZ-MG330B Hybrid 30 GB HDD/MicroSD camcoder made by JVC (this one has remote control, though with around 20 feet range). There are many others as well.

The photocamera has less video capabilities; hence, it is not good for production usage. But for you alone, it has what is required.
The still shots made with it are great. An example is Cyber-shot DSC-W300 made by Sony. There are very few others.

You do not need anybody else's help to shoot a video of your dancing for yourself. Simple: set up the camera, put the camera on tripod, press the record button, and stop the recording after finishing. However, in a small room, with moving dances, parts of your dancing will likely be off-frame. This is not important, but if you need the whole dance, ask somebody to turn the camera on the tripod to follow you. He shall not do it continuously.

To transfer the shooting to a computer (don't transfer it to DVDs), the learning effort required is less than one day and the doing effort is one hour. To make a nice film "We at ... competition", the learning effort is two days and the doing effort is one day.


If you decide to buy or borrow, pay attention to the following.

The videoacamera shall not have any built-in DVD capabilities. It shall not use any cassettes. It shall connect to a computer through a USB cable. High definition capability is not required.

The photocamera shall be from reputable manufacturer, have 30 frames per second capability at 640 x 480 pixels resolution, be a 2008 or later year model.

Also needed are a memory card and a simple tripod. A memory card with 8 GB size will allow for more than one hour of shooting, in chunks of 10 minutes (small pause required after every 10 minutes) if shot with photocamera. Buy exactly the type of memory card specified in the manual. Unfortunately, memory cards are not sold with the cameras meaning that customers buy of the size that suits them, or use their old ones.

Total price of the equipment is $350 - $450.

The following are not required for the beginning: a second memory card, video lights, DVDs, extra batteries.

[suburbaknght]

When a ballroom dance competitor (or a competitress) has prepared a choreographed sequence, a rather complex and long one, how would he usually memorize it?

There are five techniques I use to memorize routines: repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, and repetition.

For me it comes down to drilling the routine into my head, practicing the steps over and over and over again until they become muscle memory - then I can lose myself in the dancing.

Of course, there are other things that help. I'm very emphatic about learning the names of figures; as a former coach once told me, "If you think, 'I'm going to do a fall away twinkle," you'll do a fall away twinkle. If you think, "I step over there, then kind of shift my weight, then go over here,' you're going to step, kind of shift, and go over here." I write the patterns and sequence down to help memorize them, but rarely refer back (unless my partner and I are arguing about the sequence). I pay very close attention to the music and what part of the floor we're occupying for each pattern in order to build in other cues. I will always video, but usually it's to have a record and doesn't really help me with memorization.