BsAs syndrome

[Mladenac]

Since the BsAs is the holy place of every AT dancer I would like to have comparison with other known transient psychological disorders:

Paris syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome ,
Jerusalem syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome,
Stendhal syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stendhal_syndrome

Some of AT dancers here declare to BsAs as the holy place of every AT dancers.

How many of trip to BsAs did not end the way you wanted regarding of too much expectation or because of so intense feelings you experienced in BsAs.

[UKDancer]

BsAs is a very long way from England, and while it might be fun to dance there as a tourist, I couldn't transplant the Latin culture or BsAs codigas back here, on my return, and if I tried, everyone else would think me mad, or just a prat.

So English tango will have to do for me: connection and the music. They're enough.

[JohnEm]

BsAs is a very long way from England, and while it might be fun to dance there as a tourist, I couldn't transplant the Latin culture or BsAs codigas back here, on my return, and if I tried, everyone else would think me mad, or just a prat.
I can see no point in dancing in BsAs as a tourist.

All that way only to dance with foreigners. Yes, I know Portenos
are foreigners to us, everything in BsAs would be foreign to me.
But why go all the way there only to dance with North Americans,
Japanese and Europeans. But I know of people who have done
exactly that.

On the other hand I also know of people who have specifically learnt
how to at least make a good attempt at dancing BsAs style before
they go. I would say if that is what interests you, then do it if you can
and there are a whole host of reasons for doing so, the most important
one for me is the personal experience. And no, I haven't been yet.

The other view is here:
http://melinas-two-cent.blogspot.com/


So English tango will have to do for me: connection and the music. They're enough.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-dance020.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[Peaches]

So you learn "BsAs style." You'll still "only be dancing with other tourists."

So go with another dancer, or your SO. Don't be a menace, but dance together with someone you care about. Enjoy an evening at a milonga--even if you're not dancing it's an enjoyable place to spend the evening chatting with a friend and having a bite to eat and a glass of champagne to sip.

Eh. I say go. If not for the dancing, then because it's an awesome place to visit with amazing food. (And, no, I don't actually mean the beef. I don't care about the beef. The veggies are amazing, though, as is the coffee.) The dancing is a great excuse for a vacation you wouldn't ordinarily take. :D

ETA: Go with no expectations, and you won't ever be disappointed.

[JohnEm]

So you learn "BsAs style." You'll still "only be dancing with other tourists."
If that's the case I won't be going, just see no point.


Eh. I say go. If not for the dancing, then because it's an awesome place to visit with amazing food. (And, no, I don't actually mean the beef. I don't care about the beef. The veggies are amazing, though, as is the coffee.) The dancing is a great excuse for a vacation you wouldn't ordinarily take. :D

ETA: Go with no expectations, and you won't ever be disappointed.
True enough, but the attraction is the city and the dancing,
the whole experience surely. I have come to the conclusion
that men are likely to have a more difficult time getting dances
in the milongas than the visiting ladies (they seem to have different
problems) but without going that is merely speculation.

[JohnEm]

Since the BsAs is the holy place of every AT dancer I would like to have comparison with other known transient psychological disorders:

Paris syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome ,
Jerusalem syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome,
Stendhal syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stendhal_syndrome

Some of AT dancers here declare to BsAs as the holy place of every AT dancers.

How many of trip to BsAs did not end the way you wanted regarding of too much expectation or because of so intense feelings you experienced in BsAs.
BTW Mladenac the evidence of these syndromes isn't exactly convincing.
Very low numbers indeed, they just seem to be names for the sake of
names. Tango Addiction Syndrome of course is another matter entirely.

[UKDancer]

... but without going that is merely speculation.

Obviously true, but it's a very long way to go to find out!

I'd never say never, and the dancing would be part of the trip. You couldn't go and not dance. But it wouldn't be the main reason to go for me. I'd go for the beef.

[dchester]

The wife and I made the trek a year and 1/2 ago, and we had a great time. Thus we plan to return, possibly this summer (their winter). If you are going there for tango, classes are a bargain. So that's another thing to consider.

The food is very good there (not just the beef), and if you're into shopping, you won't be disappointed. The only real worry I have is that the first trip was so good, I'm not sure if we can match it a second time.

[pascal]

Paris syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome ,


From the quoted link: It is thought that it is the rapid and frequent fluctuations in mood, tense and attitude, especially in the delivery of humour, which cause the most difficulty.

- Excuse me, we are looking for Notre-Dame.
- Your lady, but look she is right here hahaha
- Excuse me?
- Hey drop dead, can't you read a map?

[chanchan]

Since the BsAs is the holy place of every AT dancer I would like to have comparison with other known transient psychological disorders:

Some of AT dancers here declare to BsAs as the holy place of every AT dancers.

Some people declare to Paris as the holy place for every student of French language. Is that a case of Paris syndrome?
I think it is just a matter of fact: you can find a lot of good French teachers all over the world. But if you want to practise it, talking with your fellow countrymen is not the same thing as talking with a lot of different native speakers.

[pascal]

Thus we plan to return, possibly this summer (their winter).


Haha that's what I did two years ago. Spent three months there. It was cold. It was dark. It was rainy. The teachers were mostly gone abroad. Many milongas and classes were closed because of the winter, or cancelled because of H1N1. There was a big gap between the tango life as announced in the magazines (tangauta) & webpages, and the real tango life. Even the 2x4 radio was mainly talking about the elections or the H1N1.
Want to experiment a BsAs syndrom? Go there in (their) winter.

[dchester]

Haha that's what I did two years ago. Spent three months there. It was cold. It was dark. It was rainy. The teachers were mostly gone abroad. Many milongas and classes were closed because of the winter, or cancelled because of H1N1. There was a big gap between the tango life as announced in the magazines (tangauta) & webpages, and the real tango life. Even the 2x4 radio was mainly talking about the elections or the H1N1.
Want to experiment a BsAs syndrom? Go there in (their) winter.
Well since I very much prefer cold to heat (and their winter is very mild compared to what I'm used to), that's what I plan to do.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[opendoor]

St. Pauli (city of Hamburg) is closer to the Río de la Plata than San Telmo (city of BsAs)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Pauli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Telmo,_Buenos_Aires

[Captain Jep]

It's a bit like the Hajj. One trip in my lifetime - that's part of my holy obligation.

I dont really need a second trip though.

[Mladenac]

Some people declare to Paris as the holy place for every student of French language. Is that a case of Paris syndrome?
I think it is just a matter of fact: you can find a lot of good French teachers all over the world. But if you want to practise it, talking with your fellow countrymen is not the same thing as talking with a lot of different native speakers.

In Paris everybody especially the Japanese expect that the Parisians are kind and some kind of expectations regarding Paris as city of love ...

[UKDancer]

... everybody especially the Japanese expect that the Parisians are kind

They can't ALL be going for the first time, surely, or they would know better?

[Zoopsia59]

They can't ALL be going for the first time, surely, or they would know better?

Maybe they're meeting French tourists in Paris and just think they are talking to Parisians.

[Steve Pastor]

People in small towns are almost always friendlier than people in big cities. Paris is a big city. I met adament French speakers, people who addressed me in English (because it is the closest thing the world currently has to a lingua franca) people who didn't have time for me , and people who were very helpful.

Anyone traveling to another culture should learn about it ahead of time to help avoid "culture shock".

I've never felt a big obligation to go the Buenos Aires just because I dance Argentine Tango. In fact the treating of Buenos Aires as "Mecca" has always seemed rather odd to me.
Still, I do want to go and check it out. Not that I would expect a great tango experience, but I would like to go and see some of the places I have been reading about all these (10) years. (Somehow I doubt that I will me swept off my feet my a milonguero embrace.)

Still, Patagonia will probably be the next overseas place I will travel to, and most trips transit through BA to get there. Many include attendance at a tango show. WOOOHH!
Ummm, I would like to spend a week or so, but at least a week end.

[Zoopsia59]

Many include attendance at a tango show. WOOOHH!
.

Skip the Tango show (since I'm sure you've seen plenty of that sort of thing) and go to hear a symphony at Teatre Colon, one of the finest concert halls in the world. Spring for good seats.

[jantango]

Steve wrote: People in small towns are almost always friendlier than people in big cities.

I moved to Buenos Aires for three reasons: (1) the friendly people, (2) the beautiful city, and (3) to dance tango, in that order. I live walking distance from the Congress and the theater district, and I am greeted by shop owners and people on the street in my neighborhood. I usually run into someone from the milongas since there is a men's club nearby where the milongueros hang out in the afternoon. I can't pass the paint store without being greeted by the manager, nor can I walk past the Italian restaurant without a kiss and a hello from the waiters (even though I'm not a regular customer). This is just the way people are in this city.

After 12 years here, I'm glad I downsized my life and started a new one in Buenos Aires.

[Madahlia]

I moved to Buenos Aires for three reasons: (1) the friendly people, (2) the beautiful city, and (3) to dance tango, in that order. I live walking distance from the Congress and the theater district, and I am greeted by shop owners and people on the street in my neighborhood. I usually run into someone from the milongas since there is a men's club nearby where the milongueros hang out in the afternoon. I can't pass the paint store without being greeted by the manager, nor can I walk past the Italian restaurant without a kiss and a hello from the waiters (even though I'm not a regular customer). This is just the way people are in this city.

After 12 years here, I'm glad I downsized my life and started a new one in Buenos Aires.

Hmm. another option for my retirement plans?

I would like to go to BsAs but not in their winter (who would exchange a month of precious Summertime in England for more damp and cold?) and primarily for general tourism. I would certainly dip my toe in the tango waters but with low expectations, reducing the possiblity of disappointment. I would eat lots of meals, practise my Spanish and buy a few pairs of shoes. I would use public transport to travel to other areas of the country and not just stay in BsAs. Do they still speak Welsh in Patagonia?

[chanchan]

In Paris everybody especially the Japanese expect that the Parisians are kind and some kind of expectations regarding Paris as city of love ...
Yes, but it seems that the problem with buenos aires is not that people expect that the porteños are kind and buones aires is the city of love.

By hearing comments of people coming back disappointed, I think the problem is more similar to a language student of a who used to be proficent at school, but when coping with native speakers has difficulties: this can be someway frustrating.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Went three times in two years, absolutely elated with my experience, cannot wait to go back.

From my observation of tango tourists in Buenos Aires, the major reasons of their frustrations are following: they come unprepared, with some expectations and preconceived notions, and while in place, instead of paying attention and adapting to the reality, insist on doing things their way.

[Zoopsia59]

By hearing comments of people coming back disappointed, I think the problem is more similar to a language student of a who used to be proficent at school, but when coping with native speakers has difficulties: this can be someway frustrating.

Speaking of folks from the US, I expect that disappointment stems from several possibilities.

They have a large repertoire of moves that they are completely unable to use. They never learned to dance "small" and they never learned to do well some of the most vital elements (such as molinete and ocho cortado) to get by in a crowded traditional milonga with very slow moving traffic. (In fact, the only people in my area who regularly use ocho cortado are the leaders who dance almost exclusively CE :confused: )

They never worked extensively in CE so everything feels awkward and even those who dance CE may not be accustomed to giving sufficiently small leads, picking up on small leads as a follower, or making the steps as small as they need to be, while still traveling. They might know how to dance in place, but their in-place moves might actually be too big because they are nuevo styling. They are totally unprepared for how tightly everyone is packed in and how slowly the flow around the room goes. They only know how to be in place or to move in large spurts. They don't know how to inch along steadily.

If they go to the alternative milongas, those things won't be as much of a problem, but they are likely to want to experience "real BA milongas" and find themselves at the most traditional well known ones that they are not at all prepared to dance in. They may even take classes while there (and possibly as part of a package) and find that they can't use anything they learned in class at a milonga.

All of this stuff happened to my partner on his first trip. I had the benefit of his experience of 1/2 dozen subsequent trips, and I was still absolutely stunned by how many people there are on the floor at a time and how small everything was. Even with his good instruction (he was my first teacher) I found it hard to adjust and very nerve-wracking at first to have people so close to me, especially right behind me.

2) They think they might get to mix and dance with locals and find out the hard way that their chances of doing so are pretty slim.

[Zoopsia59]

From my observation of tango tourists in Buenos Aires, the major reasons of their frustrations are following: they come unprepared, with some expectations and preconceived notions, and while in place, instead of paying attention and adapting to the reality, insist on doing things their way.

Wow.. you summed that up much better than I did!

[Captain Jep]

Speaking of folks from the US, I expect that disappointment stems from several possibilities.

They have a large repertoire of moves that they are completely unable to use. They never learned to dance "small" and they never learned to do well some of the most vital elements (such as molinete and ocho cortado) to get by in a crowded traditional milonga with very slow moving traffic. (In fact, the only people in my area who regularly use ocho cortado are the leaders who dance almost exclusively CE :confused: )

They never worked extensively in CE so everything feels awkward and even those who dance CE may not be accustomed to giving sufficiently small leads, picking up on small leads as a follower, or making the steps as small as they need to be, while still traveling. They might know how to dance in place, but their in-place moves might actually be too big because they are nuevo styling. They are totally unprepared for how tightly everyone is packed in and how slowly the flow around the room goes. They only know how to be in place or to move in large spurts. They don't know how to inch along steadily.

If they go to the alternative milongas, those things won't be as much of a problem, but they are likely to want to experience "real BA milongas" and find themselves at the most traditional well known ones that they are not at all prepared to dance in. They may even take classes while there (and possibly as part of a package) and find that they can't use anything they learned in class at a milonga.

All of this stuff happened to my partner on his first trip. I had the benefit of his experience of 1/2 dozen subsequent trips, and I was still absolutely stunned by how many people there are on the floor at a time and how small everything was. Even with his good instruction (he was my first teacher) I found it hard to adjust and very nerve-wracking at first to have people so close to me, especially right behind me.

2) They think they might get to mix and dance with locals and find out the hard way that their chances of doing so are pretty slim.

Yes 1) is very true. But speaking as someone who does dance small (and mostly in CE) I found that it was taken to ridiculous lengths in BsAs. Inching along is no fun. You might as well get out the zimmer frame that's how ridiculous it can get :mad:

At the alternative milongas I think I was just too old (or not good looking enough :rolleyes: ). The alt practicas attract a much younger age group then you would find at similar events in the UK. It's not just an attitude of mind there : there is also a certain amount of ageism involved.

OK that's my bitter grapes out of the way :p.

[Mladenac]

I just wanted to thank you all for nice thread you made :D :D

[Steve Pastor]

Spotted this while looking for past threads on center of balance, etc.
Some of us might want to update our thoughts.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Went once more since. It keeps getting better :) Cannot wait to go back, already planning my next trip.

[JohnEm]

Spotted this while looking for past threads on center of balance, etc.
Some of us might want to update our thoughts.

Obviously no-one is!!!!


These are the thoughts I would question:


. . . . speaking as someone who does dance small (and mostly in CE)
I found that it was taken to ridiculous lengths in BsAs. Inching along
is no fun. You might as well get out the zimmer frame
that's how ridiculous it can get :mad:

Inching along maybe in Euro/American terms but the milongueros don't
have any concept of inching, they dance in the space available and keep
dancing on the spot if necessary. It demands a small rotating dance which
isn't taught here. It requires balance, stability and a sensitivity to small
movements from both partners. Many more of the milongueras here, but
not all, have an internal tone and connection to feel it and a positivity
which conveys where they are via the chest connection.

Often foreigners do not have that. But one who has adopted BsAs and
who is connected in that way is Janis/jantango. You can prepare for BsAs,
there is plenty of video to watch and learn if you are so determined.
It's also my belief that the ability to adapt to the conditions is an
important part of the dance and there is no doubt that it also improves
your connection to both your partner and the music. Concentrate on the
rhythm too. It is often repeated that the milongueros dance the rhythm
with their feet, or often with just their partner's feet though they continue
to mark the rhythm without stepping, and the emotion, the words or the
melody with the rest of their body (poetically with their soul).

Forget the Anglo/European elegant walk in a straight line and big turns,
no teacher's names being quoted, because in that style when
the conditions get very busy and the ronda grinds to a halt,
the dance inevitably does become a tango shuffle. It's also worth noting
that unlike abroad, in BsAs the ronda rarely grinds to a complete halt,
mostly people keep dancing and slowly moving forward which helps a lot.

[Temza]

Updating my thoughts about BA...(been there eight times in seven years)
I still believe that any person interested in tango should to go at least once to see tango in its context.
Anybody who wants to accelerate their progress should go, because this is where you can take lessons and dance almost 24 hours a day.

A tango junkie will find his heaven there because at any moment during the day he can find a milonga to go to.
As for ordinary social dancers ... there are plenty of excellent, BA-style tango dancers in Europe now and the "milonguero scene" is growing stronger and stronger every year. Dancing at "milonguero festivals" in Europe is just as good and often better than at BA milongas, for several reasons.

The firm and gentle close embrace, connection with the music and the partner - all this can be found on the doorstep nowadays

[Steve Pastor]

Dancing at "milonguero festivals" in Europe is just as good and often better than at BA milongas, for several reasons.

Which milongas in BA do you attend when you are there?

[AndaBien]

... the "milonguero scene" is growing stronger and stronger every year...

I'm envious. Here it seems to be disappearing.

..,Dancing at "milonguero festivals" in Europe is just as good and often better than at BA milongas, for several reasons...

Please elaborate. What are the reasons?

[Temza]

Which milongas in BA do you attend when you are there?
Cachirulo in El Beso (and before in Maipu) is my favourite, always had great dancing there, then Lo de Celia, de los Consagrados, Paracultural and Mina Milonga in Salon Canning, Sunderland, Grisel, Nino Bien, Porteno y Bailarin - these are the ones I went to most often.

[Temza]

Please elaborate. What are the reasons?
Quality of dancing. "Milonguero" festivals in Europe are attended by people who are passionate about tango, practice a lot and are dedicated to the very-close-embrace style of dancing. There are no tourists who come after 10 tango lessons or those who want to display their vast repertoire of steps in every dance.

Music. 100 per cent Golden Age, no chacarera/jive/salsa/paso doble, etc.

Floorcraft. No comparison. Of course inept tourists create a lot of problems in BA milongas but the locals are not entirely blameless either. I saw them colliding, constantly changing lanes, walking against the line of dance, etc. The floorcraft at the milonguero festivals I attended was exemplary.

Balance of numbers. This is something beyond the control of BA milongas' organizers, but the fact is that it helps.

Friendliness. Everybody dances with everybody, there is no fear to be seen with someone "inferior", but instead a lot of curiosity and desire to try and make it with new people.

No risk of encountering sleazeballs

Codigos, imported sensibly. Cabeceo is used predominantly but can be dispensed with between close friends. People are not allocated seats, so if at the start you get a bad seat in the dark corner, this does not mean you are doomed. You can always move around and cross the line of sight of someone you hope to dance with.

[JohnEm]

Quality of dancing. "Milonguero" festivals in Europe are attended by people who are passionate about tango, practice a lot and are dedicated to the very-close-embrace style of dancing. There are no tourists who come after 10 tango lessons or those who want to display their vast repertoire of steps in every dance.

Yes but . . . . . I write as a leader whose experience is different.

This is a European disrespectful reinvention of the meaning of "Milonguero".
Close embrace dancing yes, but not in the Buenos Aires style at all.
The embrace is different, the rhythm and movement of the dance
is different.


Music. 100 per cent Golden Age, no chacarera/jive/salsa/paso doble, etc.

The light relief seems to be welcomed in Buenos Aires, it's those abroad
who often feel it should be a night of total tango. Maybe because many
tango dancers abroad have no other dance experience or ability.


Floorcraft. No comparison. Of course inept tourists create a lot of problems in BA milongas but the locals are not entirely blameless either. I saw them colliding, constantly changing lanes, walking against the line of dance, etc. The floorcraft at the milonguero festivals I attended was exemplary.

I'm attending milongas in BsAs, good and bad for floorcraft at different
times. BsAs isn't everything you hear but some milongas are generally
excellent. The claimed exceptional floorcraft at European "Milonguero"
festivals is achieved by a rigid one lane discipline, everyone in line waiting
for the couple in front to move one step. It isn't a dance, it's regimental.


Balance of numbers. This is something beyond the control of BA milongas' organizers, but the fact is that it helps.
It's artificial and not always beneficial.


Friendliness. Everybody dances with everybody, there is no fear to be seen with someone "inferior", but instead a lot of curiosity and desire to try and make it with new people.
If only that were true. It can be just as cliquey as anywhere else,
more so sometimes.

No risk of encountering sleazeballs
You mean people are rejected by the organisers for their
"sleazeball" potential?

Codigos, imported sensibly. Cabeceo is used predominantly but can be dispensed with between close friends. People are not allocated seats, so if at the start you get a bad seat in the dark corner, this does not mean you are doomed. You can always move around and cross the line of sight of someone you hope to dance with.
Just like in BsAs the cabaceo can be used by a certain inner clique
to avoid dancing with the general attendees. And a certain inner clique
I've seen do have reserved tables and sit together to preserve and sustain.

[Andreas Wichter]

@JohnEm

I am a bit surprised hearing of your experiences. Which milonguero festivals have you been at?

[Steve Pastor]

So, Temza, I wonder why you continue to go to Buenos Aires?

Meanwhile, let me say that I didn't find any "fear to be seen with someone "inferior"" or unknown at either Lo de Celia or El Arranque.
One I did find was that, until the woman I entered Lo de Celia with got up and went to another table (a new acquaintence from the tour to Patagonia I was going on) to chat with JanTango, the women never looked my way, honoring the codigos. As she put it later, "You didn't get any action until..."

At El Arranque I was literally one of the first men on the floor, so the women there had ample opportunity to judge me. There were times of course when I wanted to dance, any no one was available, but I nad no particular problem in finding women to dance with. (And I will treasure the smiles and the "muy buenos"s for a long long time.)

And I had been warned about how hard it was to find women to dance with many times. Someone who spent several months there even told me that I should think about hiring a taxi dancer so that I would be sure to dance. One guide book stated the El Arranque was particularly cool to outsiders.

Some of the women I danced with were "tango tourists", but the great majority only spoke Spanish, so I assume they were "locals".

I'll say again that the musicality I saw at Lo de Celia was, as a whole, unsurpassed. El Arranque was less so. (And to me musicality means dancing to the music, which is a bit more complicated than simply the rhythm.)

One thing you will experience in Buenos Aires (depending, I think on which milongas you attend) is the culture that goes along with the dance. Try as we might, in the US, Europe, and elsewhere, our cultures are different than Buenos Aires, and we don't quite get there.

A favorite example of mine, and as JohnEm has pointed out, is the use of only "Argentine Tango" at purist events outside of BA. In Buenos Aires It was great fun watching the people dancing let off steam to a non tango tanda. Back in the day, tango groups would sometimes alternate with swing (or jazz?) bands.

I hope that anyone who decides to make the trip has as rewarding an experience as I did. And I certainly wouldn't let, "It's as good or better here" dissuade me from going. It's about the city, and the culture, and the people. It isn't just about dancing.

[Temza]

This is a European disrespectful reinvention of the meaning of "Milonguero".
Close embrace dancing yes, but not in the Buenos Aires style at all.
The embrace is different, the rhythm and movement of the dance
is different.
Oh dear... "disrespectful reinvention"... Sorry for touching your sacred cow.

"not in the Buenos Aires style at all"??? how would you know? Which milonguero festival you have been to? Have you danced with European leaders by any chance?


The light relief seems to be welcomed in Buenos Aires, it's those abroad
who often feel it should be a night of total tango. Maybe because many
tango dancers abroad have no other dance experience or ability.

Very well may be. I was asked for *my personal* reasons to like European festivals. If you allow chacarera/jive/salsa/paso doble, I see no reason why nuevo/alternative music should not be allowed. As for light relief, milongas and valses give me plenty

The claimed exceptional floorcraft at European "Milonguero"festivals is achieved by a rigid one lane discipline, everyone in line waiting for the couple in front to move one step. It isn't a dance, it's regimental.

No, they are not waiting, "they dance in the space available and keep dancing on the spot if necessary," just as you said about milongueros.


It's artificial and not always beneficial.

It is certainly artificial, can't argue with that. But when is it not beneficial? Can you give me an example?

If only that were true. It can be just as cliquey as anywhere else, more so sometimes.
Really? Again, which milonguero festival have you attended?


You mean people are rejected by the organisers for their "sleazeball" potential?
No, I mean people come to festivals for three or four days, in couples, for the sole purpose of dancing, and don't treat the dance floor as a pick-up joint. Obviously, being a man, you have never encountered this problem in BA.


Just like in BsAs the cabaceo can be used by a certain inner clique
to avoid dancing with the general attendees. And a certain inner clique
I've seen do have reserved tables and sit together to preserve and sustain.

I don't see how what you said is intended to contradict what I said, namely that you are not stuck in your dark corner, like you can be in a BA milonga, if you are given a bad seat. You can have a reserved table and still move around in Europe, but not in BA milongas.

Anyway, this was a very valiant attempt to defend BA milongas against totally subjective suppositions that they might be less than perfect. Why don't you come to one of the European festivals (Abrazos e.g.) and *then* compare them to BA milongas?

[Temza]

So, Temza, I wonder why you continue to go to Buenos Aires?
Well, i don't. This year I am spending more time dancing in Europe. Might go back in couple of years but not just for dancing, as you suggested


Meanwhile, let me say that I didn't find any "fear to be seen with someone "inferior"" or unknown at either Lo de Celia or El Arranque. ...

And I had been warned about how hard it was to find women to dance with many times. Someone who spent several months there even told me that I should think about hiring a taxi dancer so that I would be sure to dance.

You were lucky then, luckier than that other person. But he did not invent this fear, did he?

One thing you will experience in Buenos Aires (depending, I think on which milongas you attend) is the culture that goes along with the dance. Try as we might, in the US, Europe, and elsewhere, our cultures are different than Buenos Aires, and we don't quite get there.
Of course, can't agree more. it is important to see tango in its context.


A favorite example of mine, and as JohnEm has pointed out, is the use of only "Argentine Tango" at purist events outside of BA. In Buenos Aires It was great fun watching the people dancing let off steam to a non tango tanda.

And good for them. Perhaps if milongas go on for six hours, and you can find a place to dance tango at almost any time during the day, you don't mind so much when you hear different music. If I go to a 4-hour milonga once a week, and 45 minutes is spent on other music, that looks like a waste of precious tango time to me.

I hope that anyone who decides to make the trip has as rewarding an experience as I did. And I certainly wouldn't let, "It's as good or better here" dissuade me from going. It's about the city, and the culture, and the people. It isn't just about dancing.
I can't agree more. I never tried to dissuade anybody. On the contrary, if you look at my first post, I said that everybody who is interested in tango must go, at least once.

[JohnEm]

Oh dear... "disrespectful reinvention"... Sorry for touching your sacred cow.
Oh it's no sacred cow, but I see no reason to adopt an understood
Argentine term and re-purpose it in order to acquire some credence
seemingly for marketing and promotional reasons.


"not in the Buenos Aires style at all"??? how would you know? Which milonguero festival you have been to? Have you danced with European leaders by any chance?
No I obviously don't dance with leaders and, since you don't lead
as far as I know, your opinion will be different to mine. I have danced
alongside some leaders from Europe, and watched and seen video.
Nor do the people behind the so-called "Milonguero" festivals teach
nor dance in BsAs style.


No, they are not waiting, "they dance in the space available and keep dancing on the spot if necessary," just as you said about milongueros.

If that's dancing give me BsAs style dance of the rhythm and
the music every time.


It is certainly artificial, can't argue with that. But when is it not beneficial? Can you give me an example?
It depends which side of the dance you are on.


Really? Again, which milonguero festival have you attended?
Same answer I've not given Andreas. You can work it out.


No, I mean people come to festivals for three or four days, in couples, for the sole purpose of dancing . . . .
Actually all of this travelling circus - oops sorry, festival - is rather sad.
You mean we have to travel thousands of miles all around Europe to get
a decent dance experience? I actually think it would be rather sad to
have to keep travelling to Buenos Aires for a decent tango experience
but if that was the only alternative, BsAs would win every time.

What we should be trying to achieve is the social tango experience
of a dance to the music and a wide variety of dance skills mixing
empathatically on the dance floor. Regrettably I don't expect that
to happen widely anytime soon. But there are places.


I don't see how what you said is intended to contradict what I said, namely that you are not stuck in your dark corner, like you can be in a BA milonga, if you are given a bad seat. You can have a reserved table and still move around in Europe, but not in BA milongas.
If I didn't contradict, I didn't intend to contradict.

Anyway, this was a very valiant attempt to defend BA milongas against totally subjective suppositions that they might be less than perfect. Why don't you come to one of the European festivals (Abrazos e.g.) and *then* compare them to BA milongas?
I thought it was clear already . . . . . . . that it was a comparison
based on personal experience, of both. Just as yours is but from
another perspective.

To be clear, I haven't pretended that Buenos Aires milongas are perfect,
nor are all the dancers. It is a social dance after all and that alone implies
a wide range of skill. You are advocating a self-selecting super-tier of
travelling tangueros/as (I refuse to use milongueros/as) for Europeans
attending so-called festivals, I am not.

[Andreas Wichter]

Hard to know where to begin...

This will take a few posts, sorry if it gets boring. First of all, I feel compelled to finally write because there have been a few instances lately where people who either never went to an "encuentro milonguero", or who obviously felt overwhelmed because they themselves can't really dance all that well, commented negatively in public about these events.
Not that most encuentros still need any publicity at all (most are booked out within a few days after bookings open), but still I think it can't go unanswered all the time.

Let me make a few observations. I suppose most people know that joke about the guy driving on the motorway when the guy on the radio warns of a car going in the wrong direction, and the driver mutters "One? Hundreds!"

At a recent encuentro, someone complained to me about the cliquishness he observed. I asked him: "Have you tried to actually talk to anyone?" He said no. Nuff said.

A few years ago my partner Lynn and I ran a few milongas in Plymouth, as usual expecting people to respect the codes, including proper floorcraft of course. After the milonga, one guy complained about the bad floorcraft. He was the only one (because actually, the floorcraft was more or less ok). And also, he had been the one who had once stepped backwards against the ronda, heavily, on Lynn's foot. Without noticing, of course.
At Les Cigales 2010, a guy ranted to me about what he thought was bad floorcraft all around him. During the previous tanda, he had almost run me off the floor (without noticing, you get the picture...)
Which goes to show that the bumpee often actually is the bumper.

So if people complain about the ronda or generally the floorcraft at a milonguero festival, I check two things quickly: can he/she dance; and does he/she complain about everything else, too? The answers are usually no and yes, in that order.

This just to put things into perspective. And John, sorry again for the bad experience you had with your lunch at Abrazos.

[Andreas Wichter]

For those not familiar with so-called "encuentros milongueros", let me try and say a few words about how I see them.

This type of festival was created because there was a need for them. No matter where you live (outside of Buenos Aires), there will only be a handful of dancers, and very few milongas, which are geared towards observing the codigos. In most milongas, traditional dancers have to live with quite a bit of compromise: figure skaters on the floor, non-tango music, no cortinas, open embrace performance-style dancing, and so on.

It was therefore only a matter of time until like-minded dancers whose focus in tango is on the embrace get together and organise events which don't compromise, and which try to capture some of the spirit of the traditional milongas of Buenos Aires. Most of the regulars of the encuentros are also BsAs regulars.

Here is what we wrote on the website for Abrazos last year:

"The Concept of Abrazos

The vision behind Abrazos is the culture and cultivation of the embrace.

We are taking our cue from a specific kind of festival in continental Europe. These are usually labelled "milonguero" in some way, and that relates not to a narrowly defined, specific style but to a social tango in the tradition of that danced by the milongueros of Buenos Aires. This kind of tango is centered on the embrace, is danced in a ronda with others who feel equally strongly about tango, and respects the milonga codes.

"Encuentros Milongueros" are notable for the genuine enjoyment and joyful sharing of embraces to be seen and experienced. People are happy and relaxed and no one feels the need to show off.

We'd love you to join us at Abrazos if you are happy to follow the codes and share the dance floor with your fellow tangueros in a respectful and friendly manner. This is not an event for "neotango" dancers, for people who want to perform open hold show moves in the middle of the floor, or for people who want to dance to non-tango music. Ganchos and other kicks are frowned upon.

If you love Golden Age tango music and want to share that delight through your embrace, you will be most welcome."

[Andreas Wichter]

Dear John,

you say "Nor do the people behind the so-called "Milonguero" festivals teach
nor dance in BsAs style."

I would like to know what you mean by "BsAs style".

Maybe you could point out what these organisers are doing wrong:

(You need to precede these with the youtube URL, sorry for the inconvenience, but I can't post proper links)

Marcel, who co-organises Les Cigales, and spends more time in BsAs than in France:

... /watch?v=6quOSntDe80


Paule, who co-organises Les Cigales, dancing with an encuentro regular at her "second home" Cachirulo:

... /watch?v=qLBktHbuMhY


Philippe and Renata, co-organisers of Les Cigales:

... /watch?v=4RP9xkB9A4Y


Detlef and Melina, co-organisers of Festivalito con Amigos:

... /watch?v=UouJhbJ9mxU


Alexis Quezada, co-organiser of Abrazame:

... /watch?v=36D0YWvFS-Q&feature=fvst


Antonio (from Buenos Aires) and Francesca, organisers of Montecatini Terme Festival:

... /watch?v=OBak21_ICOU


Celine, organiser of Pasionaria Milonguera, and me (co-organiser of Abrazos):

... /watch?v=CGEdkpiW2ng


And finally, here a vid of the last tanda at Abrazame 2011:

... /watch?v=93aB2Orq72k


Andreas

[JohnEm]

Dear John,
Andreas, I'd tried to avoid personalising this.
Referring to your first post my comments were to express a different
perspective to the initial rather partisan post on this topic.
My opinion is of no less value though you may not like it.


you say "Nor do the people behind the so-called "Milonguero" festivals
teach nor dance in BsAs style."
My experience of lessons and dancing with dancers who have learned
with them, watching and dancing on the same floors, confirms that.


I would like to know what you mean by "BsAs style".
This has been discussed earlier. You can research - there's
plenty of evidence, after all I prepared for Buenos Aires by
avoiding such "Encuentro Milonguero" teaching and practicing
dancing with selected partners in a different way.


Maybe you could point out what these organisers are doing wrong:

I think not. My views already appear.

But as you are being so challenging and dismissive of a different opinion
I will make one additional comment about something you will never
see happen in Buenos Aires. That was when one of your luminaries
sat feet up on two front seats of your reserved hierarchical tables
and to then to have a foot massage in full view at the Sunday milonga.

[gyb]

Maybe a discussion of this worths a new thread, but just for those who are unfamiliar with the European scene it might be worthwhile to clarify that there are at least three distinct type of regular non-locally sustained tango events in Europe:

- tango festivals: they have workshop classes by popular teachers, milongas (maybe even a longer one dubbed "marathon" to steal some of the charm of tango-marathons), and maybe some additional social events.

- tango marathons: no workshops/classes, but more than 2 days of almost continuous dancing.

- encuentro milongueros: they are similar to tango festivals, but they explicitly target the close embrace crowd.

[Andreas Wichter]

John,

Not exactly sure what you mean by "personalising", but ok. I wanted some specifics, which is why I asked if you had actually been to any encuentros. You were talking in the plural, turns out you came to Abrazos, and this was you hinting at it in a slightly veiled manner.

---

"Referring to your first post my comments were to express a different
perspective to the initial rather partisan post on this topic.
My opinion is of no less value though you may not like it."

Temza's opinion got challenged, so did yours. Same difference.
I don't know why you would characterise her post as "partisan".
I do have a slight problem with your opinion if it is not based on what you claim it is based on, i.e. experience of so-called milonguero festivals. Note the plural. That's why I asked. (Just recently a well-known commenter (banned here, I think) dismissed the encuentros as inferior. He has never been to any.)
If you didn't like Abrazos, that's ok, and I will probably answer some of the points you made in your original reply to Temza at some later point (I am in the midst of spring-cleaning right now...).
Sorry if I sound abrupt, I am just being German.

---

"My experience of lessons and dancing with dancers who have learned
with them, watching and dancing on the same floors, confirms that."

It boggles my mind that Antonio Martinez, who until very recently lived and danced in Buenos Aires, does not dance "Buenos Aires style tango".
Whatever that is.
And interestingly, to blow my own horn if you allow, several of my students have been praised by portenos for their dancing, especially their embrace. But what do they know?

---

"This has been discussed earlier. You can research - there's
plenty of evidence, after all I prepared for Buenos Aires by
avoiding such "Encuentro Milonguero" teaching and practicing
dancing with selected partners in a different way."

Maybe someone can point me to the relevant thread?

---

"But as you are being so challenging and dismissive of a different opinion
I will make one additional comment about something you will never
see happen in Buenos Aires. That was when one of your luminaries
sat feet up on two front seats of your reserved hierarchical tables
and to then to have a foot massage in full view at the Sunday milonga."

It feels good actually to be chided, for once, for not being "traditional enough". Normally people call me a tango fascist, or just recently a tango taliban. We trads are often accused of never allowing any fun...
If you had been to other encuentros you might have been forewarned that on the last day, during the last hour or so people tend to let their hair down and engage in some craziness. During the last hour of the next Abrazos, people will see at least one person dancing the last few tandas in flip-flops.
As for the "reserved hierarchical tables", now we are getting to the truth of the matter, aren't we? The whole "elitism" complaint spiel again...
We had tables reserved for the people who were working plus their friends because we thought it nice for them to be able to find seats together easily after they had worked for a few hours and then came to a milonga already going for a time. We thought it would be, you know, polite and considerate.

[Andreas Wichter]

@gyb:
One could say that encuentros are like marathons, but aimed at the close embrace crowd. Most have no workshops.

[Steve Pastor]

Anyone else have anything to share about Buenos Aires syndrome?

[AndaBien]

Anyone else have anything to share about Buenos Aires syndrome?

And, what again is it, exactly?

[Steve Pastor]

Some of AT dancers here declare to BsAs as the holy place of every AT dancers.


How many of trip to BsAs did not end the way you wanted regarding of too much expectation or because of so intense feelings you experienced in BsAs.

from the OP

[UKDancer]

An alternative definition of BsAs syndrome could be the susceptibility to feelings of anxiety and stress induced by the members of our local peer groups, when everything that we say, do and dance is measured (and commented upon) by reference to the standards and practices prevailing in another place (or, even more likely, in another place, and at another time).

From where I sit, in cold, draughty, UK, the BsAs Summer is a very, very, long way away, and if I want to dance tango around here, the only scene that should matter is the local one, and the only codes of behaviour that are worthy of note are the local ones. It is useful, perhaps, to have some awareness of other scenes, but it's definitely an optional extra.

I was at a well-attended milonga, last week, (miles away from home - there just isn't any tango around here) and everyone was dancing in the line of dance and keeping things small (there were lots of people and not much room). There was just one couple, dancing BIG, and progressing around at twice the rate of everyone else, constantly changing lanes, constantly overtaking (even when there was nowhere to go), and generally being complete idiots. He wore a pony-tail - I might have known - and he turned out to be a teacher from out-of-area, whose claim to fame is that he teaches (and dances) in VU style: straight from BsAs. Ha ha! I don't think so. If he ever came to one of my milongas, I'd invite him not to come back (and suggest that he wash his hair, before making an appointment at the barbers).

[Steve Pastor]

He wore a pony-tail - I might have known - and he turned out to be a teacher from out-of-area,

I think that same guy was at Lo de Celia when I was there. Yes, he stood out. But not in a good way. Man he gets around. Or, just maybe, there is more than one of him!

[chanchan]

I guess that if you think you can dance VU, you should be able to go to the Sunderland club, in the VU barrio, and have at least a bunch of nice dances with regulars. Otherwise such claim seems a non-sense to me.
At the same way, if you dance milonguero I suppose you can go in places like Lo de Celia or Milonga de los Consagrados and enjoy that dancing, and if you dance nuevo you should be able to dance at La Viruta or Villa Malcom.
You don't have to be the best, but at least have a confimation that you are dancing the same dance, that you speak the same "language"... otherwise, you can dance however you want, that's clear, but what's the point of calling it that way?

I noticed that most teachers that claims to teach VU or nuevo (including some argetinian teachers) actually teach something which has little or nothing to do with BsAs social dance styles: they just teach something that local people find appealing. The consequence is that their students will probably be appreciated in the local scene, but when they go to BsAs they are rejected, for the simple reason that they dance something totally different from what they are supposed to dance.
This is, according to me, the reason of the of the BsAs syndrome.
The best teachers that I've found didn't claim to teach any specific style, they simply called it "argentine tango".

[chanchan]

From where I sit, in cold, draughty, UK, the BsAs Summer is a very, very, long way away, and if I want to dance tango around here, the only scene that should matter is the local one, and the only codes of behaviour that are worthy of note are the local ones. It is useful, perhaps, to have some awareness of other scenes, but it's definitely an optional extra.

You are perfectly right, if you don't claim to dance anything else than UK argentine tango.

[UKDancer]

You are perfectly right, if you don't claim to dance anything else than UK argentine tango.

The best teachers that I've found didn't claim to teach any specific style, they simply called it "argentine tango".

I simply call it Argentine Tango, too. Dance is a universal language, and I have no interest in dancing someone else's dance: I have enough trouble with my own.

[chanchan]

I simply call it Argentine Tango, too. Dance is a universal language, and I have no interest in dancing someone else's dance: I have enough trouble with my own.
But if you are teaching a local, regional dialect and you don't even care if it has somehing to do with the dance that comes form argentine, what's the point of calling it Argentine Tango? It could easly generate some misunderstanding and disappointments.
If you are interested to learn/dance/teach a language that you think is universal, it's quite strange that you don't care if it allows you to comunicate with someone out of your local comunity.

[JohnEm]

John,
Not exactly sure what you mean by "personalising", but ok. I wanted some specifics, which is why I asked if you had actually been to any encuentros. You were talking in the plural, turns out you came to Abrazos, and this was you hinting at it in a slightly veiled manner.
Even without specifics, my opinion has validity.
An opinion based purely on your marketing would also be valid.
You didn't turn away my booking made on the basis of your
promotion/marketing.



"Referring to your first post my comments were to express a different
perspective to the initial rather partisan post on this topic.
My opinion is of no less value though you may not like it."

Temza's opinion got challenged, so did yours. Same difference.

Initially it was to give a different and lone leader's view,
very different to Temza's follower-in-a-couple experience.
The sharp tone has come about as a result of her challenge.
And your view is even more partisan as the promoter.

I do have a slight problem with your opinion if it is not based on what you claim it is based on, i.e. experience of so-called milonguero festivals. Note the plural. That's why I asked. (Just recently a well-known commenter (banned here, I think) dismissed the encuentros as inferior. He has never been to any.)
You're a promoter, you should expect it. Events of all kinds get criticised
by attendees, mainly in private between themselves. Perhaps instead
of criticising the critic, you should respond rather more positively.

"My experience of lessons and dancing with dancers who have learned
with them, watching and dancing on the same floors, confirms that."

It boggles my mind that Antonio Martinez, who until very recently lived and danced in Buenos Aires, does not dance "Buenos Aires style tango".
Whatever that is.
We're in a muddle here.
Steve Pastor (and myself) is talking about the social dance as typically
and predominantly danced at Lo de Celia and many other places including
El Arranque, Leonesa/Consagrados, Nuevo Chique etc, all in central BsAs.
Lo de Celia is the most consistent, other vary rather more. Above all the
dance adjusts to the space available but the dance continues.

If you want to argue the point that yours and others of your persuasion
does similarly, please feel free and I will offer an opposing view of that
again from the point of a lone leader who has no "fame".


And interestingly, to blow my own horn if you allow, several of my students have been praised by portenos for their dancing, especially their embrace. But what do they know?
I've had all the "Muy Bien"s, and "Lindo"s too. Assessing their worth
needs rather more than just hearing the words, welcome though they
may be. Just don't let them go to your head.

"But as you are being so challenging and dismissive of a different opinion
I will make one additional comment about something you will never
see happen in Buenos Aires. That was when one of your luminaries
sat feet up on two front seats of your reserved hierarchical tables
and to then to have a foot massage in full view at the Sunday milonga."

It feels good actually to be chided, for once, for not being "traditional enough". Normally people call me a tango fascist, or just recently a tango taliban. We trads are often accused of never allowing any fun...
If you had been to other encuentros you might have been forewarned that on the last day, during the last hour or so people tend to let their hair down and engage in some craziness. During the last hour of the next Abrazos, people will see at least one person dancing the last few tandas in flip-flops.

Well there was no forewarning, and the "party" was the preserve of the
elite in the reserved seats. The rest of us went (and had paid) to dance.
If the organisers and helpers want a closing party, have it after the formal
close. I go to another weekend where that happens and everyone gets
a chance to relax and dance what they like.


As for the "reserved hierarchical tables", now we are getting to the truth of the matter, aren't we? The whole "elitism" complaint spiel again...
We had tables reserved for the people who were working plus their friends because we thought it nice for them to be able to find seats together easily after they had worked for a few hours and then came to a milonga already going for a time. We thought it would be, you know, polite and considerate.
You can put whatever spin you like on it. First you dismiss my opinion
because it isn't based on a wide enough experience, now you dismiss
it despite being based on a specific experience. But that doesn't alter
the impression your organisation created.

People are people and their behaviour was predictable, natural even.
You created an elite clique on half of one side of the hall and made barren
the other facing side as cabaceo there was pointless.

By the way I have no idea what you mean by the "whole "elitism"
complaint", other than to assume I am not alone in this observation.
It isn't a surprise nor unexpected and some can not be avoided.
Some teachers in tango seem to acquire "groupies" or people
who follow and admire them. I admire most those teachers who,
by their actions, do their best to dispel such fawning adulation.

[UKDancer]

But if you are teaching a local, regional dialect and you don't even care if it has somehing to do with the dance that comes form argentine, what's the point of calling it Argentine Tango? It could easly generate some misunderstanding and disappointments.
If you are interested to learn/dance/teach a language that you think is universal, it's quite strange that you don't care if it allows you to comunicate with someone out of your local comunity.

Unlike some dancers, I don't travel widely and it is unlikely that I will ever visit BsAs. My tango IS local, which is not to say that I recognise your caricature of dancing some local regional dialect.

I would suggest that there are bigger 'dialect' differences between the central BsAs Milongas and those in of the northern barrios centred around VU than there are anywhere in the UK. Pop over the river to Montevideo and I'm sure I expect that things change again. But everyone is dancing tango, each in their own way, and the idea that I would be dancing anything but Argentine Tango, outside Argentina (like just over the border, or perhaps on completely the other side of the world) is just daft.

If you want me to entertain your premise even half seriously, you will have to come clean and properly define this 'authentic dance'. I assume that you mean that there is a standardised homogeneous tango danced throughout the rather large country of Argentina, and that everyone within its borders would agree what it is, and every serious dancer, outside, also knows, and perhaps chooses to corrupt or adapt the dance to local requirements (there being some). I think you'll struggle with that one, as it is perfectly clear that agreement couldn't be reached across two city blocks, let alone around the world.

For me, tango is a way of dancing. It isn't an historical reenactment activity, nor is it slavish adherence to Latin custom, culture, dress, geography or any other part of the whole marketing roadshow. Some people make a hobby of adopting aspects of the lifestyle that they associate with the dance - and it is harmless and I wouldn't want to stop them. They vie with each other to see who can organise the 'latest' Milonga, and turn up over half way through (to make the better entrance), and they swop empanada recipes, talk dreadful Spanglish, but some of us just laugh at such behaviour. We had our tea at 6 o'clock, and went dancing as soon as we had walked the whippet.

Some of us are even daring enough to dance Samba without having ever been to Brazil, or Rumba without having been to Cuba or Salsa without having Eddie Torres' fax number. I have been to Blackpool, mind you, and my 'English' Ballroom is quite good. I've seen the best - and I can tell you, they are clean living types who go to bed at a sensible time.

Perhaps I should try Finnish Tango. I doubt it's as full of bullshit. ;)

PS If a visiting porteña came to my next milonga and found that she couldn't communicate with me, or anyone else in the room, I'd just assume that she couldn't actually dance very well.

[JohnEm]

I would suggest that there are bigger 'dialect' differences between the central BsAs Milongas and those in of the northern barrios centred around VU than there are anywhere in the UK. Pop over the river to Montevideo and I'm sure I expect that things change again. But everyone is dancing tango, each in their own way, and the idea that I would be dancing anything but Argentine Tango, outside Argentina (like just over the border, or perhaps on completely the other side of the world) is just daft.
Near enough to reality as to not need comment.

If you want me to entertain your premise even half seriously, you will have to come clean and properly define this 'authentic dance'. I assume that you mean that there is a standardised homogeneous tango danced throughout the rather large country of Argentina, and that everyone within its borders would agree what it is, and every serious dancer, outside, also knows, and perhaps chooses to corrupt or adapt the dance to local requirements (there being some). I think you'll struggle with that one, as it is perfectly clear that agreement couldn't be reached across two city blocks, let alone around the world.
You exaggerate for effect I'm sure.

For me, tango is a way of dancing. It isn't an historical reenactment activity, nor is it slavish adherence to Latin custom, culture, dress, geography or any other part of the whole marketing roadshow.

To an argentine as far as I can tell, tango is almost any way of dancing
as long as it's tango music that's being danced. It's the observers, the
choreographers, the academics and the commercial interests which
seem to define the styles and attach the labels.

Social tango (of tango music) is expected to adapt to the often crowded
conditions and that's when the move monsters really stand out as
nuisances. Of course everyone has preferences in the way they dance
and the women have preferences of which men they prefer to dance with.
The more you dance here (in BsAs) the more adaptable you can become
as long as you are dancing with a wide range of partners.


PS If a visiting porteña came to my next milonga and found that she couldn't communicate with me, or anyone else in the room, I'd just assume that she couldn't actually dance very well.
We would be better in the UK if teachers, instead of teaching their own
stereotypical style, taught people actually how to dance. I have hopes
you might be different.

[UKDancer]

You exaggerate for effect I'm sure.

What, me? ;)

The more you dance here (in BsAs) the more adaptable you can become as long as you are dancing with a wide range of partners.

I would expect that to hold true anywhere, not just in BsAs.

We would be better in the UK if teachers, instead of teaching their own stereotypical style, taught people actually how to dance.

Amen.

[chanchan]

I would suggest that there are bigger 'dialect' differences between the central BsAs Milongas and those in of the northern barrios centred around VU than there are anywhere in the UK.

How can you tell about the differences of such styles if you don't know and you are not even interested to anyone of them?
Actually, they are much more similar than you can imagine.

But everyone is dancing tango, each in their own way, and the idea that I would be dancing anything but Argentine Tango, outside Argentina (like just over the border, or perhaps on completely the other side of the world) is just daft.

I don't say that you don't dance tango just because you are outside Argentina. I say that this is a possibility. Actually I can't tell what you are dancing if I don't see you. Basing you your statements, that you only care about your local scene, that's the definition of dialect.

If you want me to entertain your premise even half seriously, you will have to come clean and properly define this 'authentic dance'. I assume that you mean that there is a standardised homogeneous tango danced throughout the rather large country of Argentina, and that everyone within its borders would agree what it is, and every serious dancer, outside, also knows, and perhaps chooses to corrupt or adapt the dance to local requirements (there being some).

Tango is a dance originated in the Area of Rio de la Plata (ie BsAs and montevideo). In the rest of Argentina and Urguay it is an imported dance just like in UK or Italy.

PS If a visiting porteña came to my next milonga and found that she couldn't communicate with me, or anyone else in the room, I'd just assume that she couldn't actually dance very well.
If a visitor from UK come to a conference in Italy and found that he couldn't comunicate with me or anyone else in the room, I'd just assume the couldn't speak... english very well. Shouldn't I?

[UKDancer]

How can you tell about the differences of such styles if you don't know and you are not even interested to anyone of them?

I said no such thing: you were (and still are) putting words into my mouth. Up to a point I do know, and I am interested. No doubt, I cannot hope for the 'whole experience' of dancing in BsAs without going, but there are plenty of resources: books, video, conversation with others, with which to satisfy my limited curiosity. However, ultimately, the people I dance with are the members of my own local tango community. I have to fit in with them, or sit out, all night. End of.

... Actually, they are much more similar than you can imagine.

Then I need be in no fear of dancing some funny local dialect. You can't have it both ways.

I don't say that you don't dance tango just because you are outside Argentina. I say that this is a possibility. Actually I can't tell what you are dancing if I don't see you. Basing you your statements, that you only care about your local scene, that's the definition of dialect.

No, you don't mean Argentina, nor even the urban districts of BsAs & Montevideo, but small parts of one city, even to the point of naming particular clubs or milongas. If the right bit (not the wrong bit) of BsAs happens to be your local scene, then the differences make a difference - but they don't make any difference to me. Why should they?

You say dialect, but I think that you mean accent. I went to quite a posh school, and I assure you that if you spoke to me in my native tongue (and assuming that you were thoroughly fluent in it yourself), you wouldn't have the slightest idea where I came from. I certainly don't speak in dialect, and I extend the analogy to my dance.

Tango is a dance originated in the Area of Rio de la Plata (ie BsAs and montevideo). In the rest of Argentina and Urguay it is an imported dance just like in UK or Italy.

I agree, which makes the title Argentine Tango a bogus construct to start with.

If a visitor from UK come to a conference in Italy and found that he couldn't comunicate with me or anyone else in the room, I'd just assume the couldn't speak... english very well. Shouldn't I?

Given the usual English inability with other languages, that might be a reasonable conclusion, but we are talking about dance. I say that it a universal language. You disagree, but haven't begun to make any coherent case.

Assuming that there was dancing at the post-conference party, I'm sure we'd all get on just fine as we have an unspoken language in common.

[bordertangoman]

We would be better in the UK if teachers, instead of teaching their own
stereotypical style, taught people actually how to dance. I have hopes
you might be different.

isnt "stereotypical" and "own style" contradictory? and isnt the thing about tango to make it your own; at least as far as musical interpretation goes. i think style as an adjunct to the dance is like facadism in architecture....

He is different but not in the way you think......;)

I am not an adherent of any particular style. I have already seen so much vairation in what people call VU that I smell a rat. I teach Yang and Wu and Wem style tango

[UKDancer]

I teach Yang and Wu and Wem style tango

Do you need clip-on hair extensions for those?

[AndaBien]

...Tango is a dance originated in the Area of Rio de la Plata (ie BsAs and montevideo). In the rest of Argentina and Urguay it is an imported dance just like in UK or Italy...

I always find this argument irrelevant. What difference does it make where a dance originates, if I learn how to do it. I learned Swing dancing in San Diego (west coast of US). Should I assume that I'm doing an imported dance because it originated on the east coast?

Even in BA, the dance today was imported from 100 years ago, and they no longer dance it that way. Dances evolve with many influences. Unless I'm trying to do a historical recreation, why do minor differences make any difference from the original?

[bordertangoman]

Do you need clip-on hair extensions for those?

of course but its complicated; Wu is bald with straggly beard
Yang is shaved head with pony tail topknot
and Wem is windswept

[JohnEm]

I agree, which makes the title Argentine Tango
a bogus construct to start with.

In Argentina it's just Tango, your bogus construct is by others,
usually abroad, and their own marketeers selling to tourists
using such a description by way of clarification.
Or should that be confusion?.

And dancing in the embrace is the way many dance, not just tango.

[JohnEm]

isnt "stereotypical" and "own style" contradictory? and isnt the thing about tango to make it your own; at least as far as musical interpretation goes. i think style as an adjunct to the dance is like facadism in architecture....
And that's my complaint surely.

They teach an often limited but rigid style of their own
and by their teaching produce clones. It's not the fault
of the students other than a failure to explore beyond
what they are prescriptively given.


stereotypical
Sociology . a simplified and standardized conception or image
invested with special meaning and held in common by members
of a group: The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes.

[dchester]

I always find this argument irrelevant. What difference does it make where a dance originates, if I learn how to do it. I learned Swing dancing in San Diego (west coast of US). Should I assume that I'm doing an imported dance because it originated on the east coast?
Isn't that why there's a west coast swing and an east coast swing?


http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/poke.gif


http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[AndaBien]

Isn't that why there's a west coast swing and an east coast swing?

Yeah, I've never figured that out. I was taught Swing dancing in a friends living room. We just called it Swing. Years later I heard about WCS and assumed that was what I knew, since that's where I learned it. What a surprise to discover that I had learned ECS on the west coast.

We didn't have dance forums in those days, to help define the terminology.

[dchester]

Yeah, I've never figured that out. I was taught Swing dancing in a friends living room. We just called it Swing. Years later I heard about WCS and assumed that was what I knew, since that's where I learned it. What a surprise to discover that I had learned ECS on the west coast.

We didn't have dance forums in those days, to help define the terminology. At least you learned a real one. The only swing variant I ever learned, was disco, back in the 70s.

:banana:

[AndaBien]

At least you learned a real one. The only swing variant I ever learned, was disco, back in the 70s.

I had enough dance sense by then to avoid that one.

[Steve Pastor]

Yeah, I've never figured that out.
Well, see, first it was called Western Swing. It's clear, though, from looking at the books articles from that time, that it was considered different than what was then called Eastern Swing.
Have the current differences between styles of TA been put into text books?

[Andreas Wichter]

John,

This will be my last post on the topic as I don't think we will see eye to eye on any of this, and also Steve seemed to kinda tap his fingers earlier, probably not wanting this thread going off the rails.

First, let me apologise if my tone was too harsh. Yours wasn't exactly gentle, and you went off dissing as a sad travelling circus me and a lot of my friends, and exaggerated your experience backing up your opinions on that.

You say your opinions have equal value. If every opinion *automatically* had equal value, we'd have creationism taught in biology class, and Sarah Palin would be EU economic advisor. The foundations of your opinion got challenged to test that value (and btw I still find them wanting).

If you want to talk about Abrazos, that is another story, and I for one am happy with what we achieved. We wanted to make a positive impact on the UK scene, and I many ways we did and will continue to do so. If you do the same in some other way, promoting and encouraging what you think is right in achieving a better UK tango scene, I say more power to you.

---

You said: "You're a promoter, you should expect it. Events of all kinds get criticised by attendees, mainly in private between themselves. Perhaps instead of criticising the critic, you should respond rather more positively."

I was reacting negatively to your rubbishing of the encuentro "movement" and a lot of very dedicated dancers, teachers and organisers whom you never met and probably in most cases never heard of, not to criticism of Abrazos, which hadn't even come up initially. At Abrazos, we dealt with your complaint in a fashion that seemed to satisfy you, and Lynn even sent you an e-mail later to make sure everything had been working out. I think we did ok generally on that score.

If Abrazos was not for you, that is fine. You mentioned "self-selection" earlier, and that is exactly what happens. We certainly didn't make everybody happy, but most people told us they'd be back before they left with smiles on their faces, and we had a deluge of glowing e-mails the week after. Our regret is that due to space constraints we will have to turn away people, probably a lot more than last year.

Again, if you had come out and said that you had a bad experience at Abrazos instead of what you did, we wouldn't have had this particular discussion, and the whole thing might actually have been more fruitful.

---

"The rest of us went (and had paid) to dance. If the organisers and helpers want a closing party, have it after the formal close."

The "party" was had by all, but if your experience was indeed so negative, please send me your bank details and I will reimburse you for the Sunday milonga.

---

"You created an elite clique on half of one side of the hall and made barren the other facing side as cabaceo there was pointless."

We had reserved seats for about 12 people or so (2 out of 16 tables), out of around 150-180, depending on which milonga we look at. How that makes one side "barren" is beyond me. And nobody stopped you from changing your seat. Friends like to sit together, so some clustering always happens.

As for the cabeceo, not sure what exactly you mean with "there" and "pointless". Almost everyone used the cabeceo just fine. Sometimes when people don't acknowledge your cabeceo, they might not be ignorant about it, they might actually be *using* the cabeceo very consciously.
Or maybe you mean cabeceoing the "elite" was pointless. Again, that might be true for you, but no-one has a duty to dance with anybody, and I did see many of "them" dancing quite a bit with people they didn't know. Not emitting a hostile vibe against them might help.

If it wasn't that, I truly don't understand your particular issue there. I wish you had pointed it out to me there and then.

---

"By the way I have no idea what you mean by the "whole "elitism"
complaint", other than to assume I am not alone in this observation."

What I am referring to is a phenomenon I've seen also in Germany, but to a much greater extent here in the UK. Some people bitterly complain about perceived elitism, and what it usually comes down to if questioned is that they resent people having reserved seating (unless it is in Buenos Aires, of course…), or some people having free entrance at a given milonga (unless…), dance better than they, and mostly "they don't dance with me, so I hate their elitist guts".

Best wishes,
Andreas

[JohnEm]

John,

This will be my last post on the topic as I don't think we will see eye to eye on any of this, and also Steve seemed to kinda tap his fingers earlier, probably not wanting this thread going off the rails.

First, let me apologise if my tone was too harsh. Yours wasn't exactly gentle, and you went off dissing as a sad travelling circus me and a lot of my friends, and exaggerated your experience backing up your opinions on that.

Frankly I'm fed up of you taking this line. My opinion is that we would be
far better trying to create local social scenes rather than having to travel
the World. I wasn't dissing anyone only expressing a different view to
the one offered by Temza who was advocating such travelling.
You keep making this personal.

You say your opinions have equal value. If every opinion *automatically* had equal value, we'd have creationism taught in biology class, and Sarah Palin would be EU economic advisor. The foundations of your opinion got challenged to test that value (and btw I still find them wanting).
I never compared value only that my opinion was valid
(whether you accept it or not). This is tango not creationism and
you seem to be claiming a greater validity for your opinion than mine.


If you want to talk about Abrazos, that is another story, and I for one am happy with what we achieved. We wanted to make a positive impact on the UK scene, and I many ways we did and will continue to do so. If you do the same in some other way, promoting and encouraging what you think is right in achieving a better UK tango scene, I say more power to you.
Oh the classic answer, if you think you can do better etc., etc.
I'm not trying nor intending to make a living out of tango, just enjoy it.
If my enjoying it contributes positively to the scene then well and good.


You said: "You're a promoter, you should expect it. Events of all kinds get criticised by attendees, mainly in private between themselves. Perhaps instead of criticising the critic, you should respond rather more positively."

I was reacting negatively to your rubbishing of the encuentro "movement" and a lot of very dedicated dancers, teachers and organisers whom you never met and probably in most cases never heard of, not to criticism of Abrazos, which hadn't even come up initially.
As I've said already, the stilted style of Abrazos and presumably the other
so-called Encuentro Milongueros festivals is not that of Buenos Aires.


At Abrazos, we dealt with your complaint in a fashion that seemed to satisfy you, and Lynn even sent you an e-mail later to make sure everything had been working out. I think we did ok generally on that score.

I never even mentioned any of that but you have repeatedly. I omitted
mention of Abrazos altogether on purpose but you have repeatedly.


If Abrazos was not for you, that is fine. You mentioned "self-selection" earlier, and that is exactly what happens. We certainly didn't make everybody happy, but most people told us they'd be back before they left with smiles on their faces, and we had a deluge of glowing e-mails the week after. Our regret is that due to space constraints we will have to turn away people, probably a lot more than last year.
You claim too much for Abrazos none of which is appropriate to comment
about here. You don't agree with my viewpoint anyway.

Again, if you had come out and said that you had a bad experience at Abrazos instead of what you did, we wouldn't have had this particular discussion, and the whole thing might actually have been more fruitful.

Don't blame the messenger, I didn't start this nor specify Abrazos.
I'm not interested in long drawn out discussions that would not end
in any sort of agreement. I've expressed my view already by not rebooking.


"The rest of us went (and had paid) to dance. If the organisers and helpers want a closing party, have it after the formal close."

The "party" was had by all, but if your experience was indeed so negative, please send me your bank details and I will reimburse you for the Sunday milonga.

I danced and that was enough. The "party" was obviously a private one
between travelling friends and the inner circle. I left before the end and
also it suited me to start the long return home at a sensible time.


"You created an elite clique on half of one side of the hall and made barren the other facing side as cabaceo there was pointless."

We had reserved seats for about 12 people or so (2 out of 16 tables), out of around 150-180, depending on which milonga we look at. How that makes one side "barren" is beyond me. And nobody stopped you from changing your seat. Friends like to sit together, so some clustering always happens.
Friends grouping together make cliques, they were quite a few of those.
I can't go back in time but my impression was of more than two tables.
Perhaps your "inner clique" added to the reserved section alongside them.
I did change my position quite a lot. Cliques don't help solo dancers.

As for the cabeceo, not sure what exactly you mean with "there" and "pointless". Almost everyone used the cabeceo just fine. Sometimes when people don't acknowledge your cabeceo, they might not be ignorant about it, they might actually be *using* the cabeceo very consciously.
Or maybe you mean cabeceoing the "elite" was pointless. Again, that might be true for you, but no-one has a duty to dance with anybody, and I did see many of "them" dancing quite a bit with people they didn't know. Not emitting a hostile vibe against them might help.
You do push your luck with your accusations.
The last one is beneath contempt.

If it wasn't that, I truly don't understand your particular issue there.
I wish you had pointed it out to me there and then.

I didn't go to have a discussion about your organisation and
sometimes about the lack of it. Most of this has arisen as an antidote
to excessive claims made about Abrazos and other "Festivals".


"By the way I have no idea what you mean by the "whole "elitism"
complaint", other than to assume I am not alone in this observation."

What I am referring to is a phenomenon I've seen also in Germany, but to a much greater extent here in the UK. Some people bitterly complain about perceived elitism, and what it usually comes down to if questioned is that they resent people having reserved seating (unless it is in Buenos Aires, of course…), or some people having free entrance at a given milonga (unless…), dance better than they, and mostly "they don't dance with me, so I hate their elitist guts".
Then don't raise it in discussion with me.
Any bitterness seems to be emanating from your direction.

[Steve Pastor]

Ok, that will be the last two posts in this ongoing "discussion" between the two factions here. And, yes, thanks for acknowledging that there was a hint back there.

[chanchan]

I said no such thing: you were (and still are) putting words into my mouth. Up to a point I do know, and I am interested. No doubt, I cannot hope for the 'whole experience' of dancing in BsAs without going, but there are plenty of resources: books, video, conversation with others, with which to satisfy my limited curiosity. However, ultimately, the people I dance with are the members of my own local tango community. I have to fit in with them, or sit out, all night. End of.

You said that "the only scene that should matter is the local one" and that " It is useful, perhaps, to have some awareness of other scenes, but it's definitely an optional extra."
There is nothing bad in it, expecially if you have no other option: you have to fit in with them, or sit out all night. I'm only suggesting you to consider the possibility that this way the dance could be more or less different.

No, you don't mean Argentina, nor even the urban districts of BsAs & Montevideo, but small parts of one city, even to the point of naming particular clubs or milongas. If the right bit (not the wrong bit) of BsAs happens to be your local scene, then the differences make a difference - but they don't make any difference to me. Why should they?
We could go further: every dancer has his/her own style. And you are encoureged to have your own, if you don't want to be a clone of someone else.
Now, the question is: what are the differences that make a differece?
I am proposing a sort of threshold, as a rule of thumb: if you don't manage to have single decent dance is such places, then it means you are dancing somehting else: a different "language", or a "dialect". Otherwise, maybe you have an "accent", but it doesn't matter so much.

[UKDancer]

... every dancer has his/her own style. And you are encoureged to have your own, if you don't want to be a clone of someone else.

Well I don't want to be a clone of anyone else, and I don't see any useful purpose in modelling my own dance by reference to anywhere else, BsAs included, as long as I fit in on the broad spectrum of what is considered normal/acceptable in the places where I dance.

This was meant (I think) to be a light-hearted discussion, and I suggested a definition of BsAs Syndrome several days ago, which was:

... the susceptibility to feelings of anxiety and stress induced by the members of our local peer groups, when everything that we say, do and dance is measured (and commented upon) by reference to the standards and practices prevailing in another place (or, even more likely, in another place, and at another time).

I don't suffer from it. Plenty of people seem to take pleasure in trying to infect me, but I have been immunised. If the faux-Latinos don't all want to kiss me on both cheeks, every time we meet, then at least I don't have to share their garlic-breath. Life has its compensations.

[dchester]

I don't suffer from it. Plenty of people seem to take pleasure in trying to infect me, but I have been immunised. If the faux-Latinos don't all want to kiss me on both cheeks, every time we meet, then at least I don't have to share their garlic-breath. Life has its compensations.
I kinda like garlic.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/shrug_n2.gif



http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[UKDancer]

I kinda like garlic.

Me too, but there's a time and a place for everything. ;)

[bordertangoman]

I kinda like garlic.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/shrug_n2.gif



http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

me too, but its sorta gotta be eaten by eveyone....loved eating gazpacho, but then you can only dance with other gazpacho eaters...

[chanchan]

Well I don't want to be a clone of anyone else, and I don't see any useful purpose in modelling my own dance by reference to anywhere else, BsAs included, as long as I fit in on the broad spectrum of what is considered normal/acceptable in the places where I dance.

You always need some sort of reference, even if you don't want to totally follow it. Otherwise, how can you know if the dance you have been taught is tango or some chinese dance disguised as tango?

I don't suffer from it. Plenty of people seem to take pleasure in trying to infect me, but I have been immunised. If the faux-Latinos don't all want to kiss me on both cheeks, every time we meet, then at least I don't have to share their garlic-breath. Life has its compensations.Tango is not only a dance. It is a set of many form of art, including music, poetry, theatre, literature... but also traditions, customs, superstitions, and much more. Someone likes it all, someone is only interested to the dance. This shouldn't be an issue.

Moreover, there are a lot of traditions that are argentine but have nothing to do with tango. I like empanadas but I don't like mate. Is it a problem?
I am not telling that we shouldn't dance "Adios muchachos" (argentine never dance it: it is supposed to bring bad luck).

[bordertangoman]

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/poke.gif

[Zoopsia59]

Ok, that will be the last two posts in this ongoing "discussion" between the two factions here. And, yes, thanks for acknowledging that there was a hint back there.

Oh darn... my popcorn was finally ready!

[Zoopsia59]

I am not telling that we shouldn't dance "Adios muchachos" (argentine never dance it: it is supposed to bring bad luck).

I think you mean Adios Nonino

[opendoor]

..I am not telling that we shouldn't dance "Adios muchachos" (argentine never dance it: it is supposed to bring bad luck).

Once I was shocked that no one around in my hometown did take care of this habit:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27094 And you Zoopsia has scoldet me for leaving the people in such darkness. Do you still remember (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=585272&postcount=26)? Meanwhile the habits changed, and even in BsAs it is actually possible to dance Adios Muchachos if it is a cover version or instrumental.

..I like empanadas but I don't like mate. Is it a problem?

For males drinking mate can be dangerous if you fiddle about with the Bombilla deep in thought....

Only hope that spreading the finger (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/photos/photo-3638.html) while dancing isn´t connected with any kind of Yeta, too....

[AndaBien]

...if you fiddle about with the Bombilla deep in thought...

You are no longer a beginner when you can drink maté without fiddling with the bombilla.

[Zoopsia59]

Once I was shocked that no one around in my hometown did take care of this habit:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27094 And you Zoopsia has scoldet me for leaving the people in such darkness. Do you still remember (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=585272&postcount=26)?


Of course I don't remember... I barely remember yesterday!

And I can't remember something I never really picked up on, which is that apparently there are TWO of these forbidden songs that are not to be danced to. One more and we'll have an entire tanda that no one should dance to.

Oh wait.. we already do.. it's called the teacher demo!

[Zoopsia59]

You are no longer a beginner when you can drink maté without fiddling with the bombilla.

You are no longer a beginner when you can drink mate (with or without the bombilla) while dancing tango

[chanchan]

I think you mean Adios Nonino
I mentioned Adios Muchachos because it is perfectly danceable. If one is not interested to follow argentine superstitions, there is no reason to avoid it. Let's say it is like number 13 in North-America.

Adios Nonino is objectively difficult to dance, no matter what is was intended for.

[bordertangoman]

I mentioned Adios Muchachos because it is perfectly danceable. If one is not interested to follow argentine superstitions, there is no reason to avoid it. Let's say it is like number 13 in North-America.

Adios Nonino is objectively difficult to dance, no matter what is was intended for.

"For example, one doesn't dance to the well known tango "Adios Muchachos" as it is (falsely)[citation needed] believed the last one sung by Carlos Gardel before his untimely accident leading to his death."

wiki

[opendoor]

...it is (falsely)[citation needed] believed the last one sung by Carlos Gardel before his untimely accident leading to his death.

wiki

ah, Wiki lost touch with the tango afficionados. It is not danced for another reason. It was regarded a presentiment, as a farewell note in advance. The order of the last recorded pieces got no relevance. Adiós Muchachos was written in 1927, Gardel died in 1935.

Goodbye boys, fellows of my life,
Loved bar from those times.
It’s my turn, today, to commence the retreat
I have to move away from my good group of young people

Goodbye boys, i go now and i resign,
Nobody beats the destiny.
All the parties/ mockeries are over, for me,
My ill body doesn’t resist anymore.

In my mind come memories from other times,
Of the beautiful moments that i have long ago enjoyed,
Close to my mother, old saint,
And to my beloved one, whom i have so much idolatrised.

They remember that she was beautiful, prettier than a Goddess,
And what a full of verve love, did my heart gave her.
But, God, jealous of her charm,
Took her away, sinking me in cry.

God is the supreme judge, nobody resists in front of Him,
I am now accustomed, to respect His law,
Well, my life ended with His orders
Taking away my mother and my beloved one, also.

Two sincere tears cried at my depart
For the loved bar that never forgot me,
And giving to my friends, my last goodbye
I give them, my blessing, with all my heart.

Goodbye boys, fellows of my life,
Loved bar from those times.
It’s my turn, today, to commence the retreat
I have to move away from my good group of young people

Goodbye boys, i go now and i resign,
Nobody beats the destiny.
All the parties/ mockeries are over for me,
My ill body doesn’t resist anymore



If Mark Knopfler would die to morrow the same would happen to Brothers in Arms.

[UKDancer]

I'm including it (Adiós Muchachos) in my next playlist. It'll be the first song in a Canaro/Maida tanda. Apart from anything else, if Roberto Maida is about to drop dead, he sounds remarkably cheerful about it.

The question is, who will be the predictable bore who ostentatiously sits it out, or even comes and tells me off? I'll offer him/her a couple of harmless Asprin, and say they are the cure for BsAs Syndrome.

[AndaBien]

I'm including it (Adiós Muchachos) in my next playlist...

I've never heard of this superstition. I always assumed it was not played because it's more of a song than a dance tune. It would be like playing Por Una Cabesa.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I'm including it (Adiós Muchachos) in my next playlist. It'll be the first song in a Canaro/Maida tanda. Apart from anything else, if Roberto Maida is about to drop dead, he sounds remarkably cheerful about it.

The question is, who will be the predictable bore who ostentatiously sits it out, or even comes and tells me off? I'll offer him/her a couple of harmless Asprin, and say they are the cure for BsAs Syndrome.

I grew up in a very superstitious culture. I am somewhat superstitious (not nearly as much as my grandparents' generation, though :) ). Personally, I don't believe teasing people about their superstitions is especially good taste.

However, you won't be the first to challenge that particular tango superstition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp1-amjSOro

Note that it was not done it in the traditional venue full of old people, quite the contrary. ;)

[Steve Pastor]

I've never heard of this superstition.

If you get a chance, you might watch Robert Duvall's "Assasination Tango". I seem to remember that there is a scene where this superstition is the topic of discussion. As I remember it, even mentioning the song should involve a grasping of a certain part of the male anatomy to ward off the bad luck involved. (I have the dvd at home, and may review it.)

I should add, for those of you who aren't aware of it, that Duvall's wife is an Argentina, and he (Duvall) is very much into the tango, even dancing at the White House for some function or other..

[opendoor]

..grapsing a a certain part..

Almost: it´s not a counter-magic. Only dancing would be bad luck, yeta. To grab once groin is the gesture that expresses the deep consternation. Women slip into their bra in that situation.