Making the breakthrough ... developing your own style

[pygmalion]

How do you know when you've done it? I mean, when you have your own distinctive salsa style? How long does it take to go from a newbie just doing the patterns, to an intermediate dancer doing the patterns and, maybe, imitating someone else's style, to a dancer with your very own flava?

How did you make the breakthrough?

[Vince A]

How do you know when you've done it? I mean, when you have your own distinctive salsa style? How long does it take to go from a newbie just doing the patterns, to an intermediate dancer doing the patterns and, maybe, imitating someone else's style, to a dancer with your very own flava?

How did you make the breakthrough?
After dancing for so very long, it has only been recently, maybe the last year, that I've recognized that the way I dance is now my own style.

I've danced with many individuals over the last year . . . I was struggling with health and family issues . . . and not improving my dance. Atually, I felt that I was getting worse at dance. Then things began to click about this past November and December.

Also, D nice (Damon) was very instrumental in helping me. He did some posting in the area of competing, which really madde me think about how I dance when I compete. Who I was competing for. Was winning all that important? Etc, etc., etc. I really owe it to him for opening my eyes.

Now, when I WCS, it basically all P-L-A-Y . . . yes I still do patterns, but most of the time I play, and Lord has that changed my WCS. Now I do what I want . . . I do "my" moves or my version of other's moves. I do a lot of back and forth action between me and the follower. Ineracting, flirting, and still dancing, whether you or anyone else would recognize it or not as WCS.

Even competition in the other dances . . . I do what I want . . . if I don't dance the "way you are supposed" and don't win . . . BFD!

I don't apologize for making an error on the floor either. We are human, and we do make mistakes. Laugh about it and continue. Keep it fun.

Your way!

[DancePoet]

Salsa is one of those dances I really haven't placed a focus on, yet.

But when it comes to Hustle I have developed alittle bit of style. I know very few patterns, but enough to have a good time on the floor and I try entertaining my partner as best as possible.

I have this one small stylistic hand move I swirl past my partner with on one pattern, and this usually brings a positive comment from those who haven't seen it before. I mix up the patterns in as many new combinations and repetitions as possible.

I have what I call a "Crossing Step With Pause" that I kind of remember from the late 70's early 80's. I haven't seen anyone else use it, and my instructor was really puzzled by the move, asking me where I learned it.

[mellody43]

How do you know when you've done it? I mean, when you have your own distinctive salsa style? How long does it take to go from a newbie just doing the patterns, to an intermediate dancer doing the patterns and, maybe, imitating someone else's style, to a dancer with your very own flava?



I kept telling myself I had no style until people (who are much better dancers than I am) started telling me that I did. I think I have more fun, feel more relaxed, and therefore have more "flava" with certain partners.

When someone actually TOLD me I had "flava" and a friend/teacher confirmed it, I figured something had clicked for me - I still am at a loss with steps/shines sometimes, but I've had enough people tell me I have great natural body movement to make me feel that if I feel confident, that I will look confident too.

Melissa

[Lita_rulez]

How do you know when you've done it? I mean, when you have your own distinctive salsa style? How long does it take to go from a newbie just doing the patterns, to an intermediate dancer doing the patterns and, maybe, imitating someone else's style, to a dancer with your very own flava?

How did you make the breakthrough?


How do you know ?

When bystanders, teachers, fellow dancers tell you something about your style. Wether they compliment you on it, or say they don't really care for it, the fact of the matter is, they have noticed it, separated it from what others around you do, so basicaly, you got it.
From then on, you can try and see what they see, refine it, you can work on it, but you can't decide to create it. It sorta dawns on you.

How do you make the break-through ?

Well, I do not have a clue about the "how" since to me it is not something you conciusly decide to create, it is created by yourself finally coming through all the layers of what you have learned, and showing your armes and legs how to realy execute a move you have learned to do like someone showed you before so that it fits your physic, your natural bodylangage, your ease of movement...

How long does it take ?

No answer there. Totally depends on the person. I for one firmly believe you refine your style all the time, and keep seeing differences in other people's way to moove, even performers that are supposed to be "top of the pack"

The question is rather "at what point will you be satisfied enough with the style you have that you can aknoledge you have a diferent style, YOUR style? "
This is how long it really takes, and this definitly varies from on person to the other.

[Sagitta]

Definitely takes time. I did have a particular way of dancing, but recently realized that this allowed for great natural movement from foot to hip, but my upper body was too still. So I'm working on removing upper body stiffness and allowing my natural body motion to work it's magic throughout my body...I'm reworking my style. :)

It really depends on the person. Some people are happy with the style they have and never bother to change.

[mambochino]

4 years later, I am still a beginner! 8)

[peachexploration]

How do you know when you've done it? I mean, when you have your own distinctive salsa style? How long does it take to go from a newbie just doing the patterns, to an intermediate dancer doing the patterns and, maybe, imitating someone else's style, to a dancer with your very own flava?

How did you make the breakthrough?

For me, after the first three months, I started noticing. A teacher would show me a move or some sort of styling, I'd do it in class and then get home to practice and then say to myself, "That doesn't feel right to me". I'd do different variations of it until it started to look like me. My style is not flamboyant at all, very quiet. I'd get back to class and the teacher would say oh that's not how I showed you but that works as well or they would be totally ticked off. *shrug* :lol: If they were ticked off, I would say that styling is just not me especially when I know it doesn't work within the whatever move we're doing. Like excessive dipping or spinning. :evil: I'm not a snob or even a spectacular dancer but sometimes things just don't work. Anyway, pretty much after three months, I started noticing my own style....... 8)

[Vin]

I think you just instinctively know. When I got the compliment
"you look so natural out there." I felt it was confirmed but I had felt it way before.
That is imo the biggest(only?) benefit to starting out in such a small salsa community. I had a ton of room to develop my own style. There weren't any styles out here competing to get my attention so in order to develop as a dancer I had to take it upon myself. I took the intro and intermediate classes from the two good salsa teachers I knew and didn't have enough money to invest in taking privates. All development past the basics had to be self taught.

[Mtal]

You could try to take other dances, then incorporate that in your dance (I guess it is salsa). For instance. When I was starting out in Salsa, someone told me to take a little hustle, I think it make me pretty smooth, so now that is what most people tell me when I dance. Also took some hip hop (back in the day), and Rumba, so I throw that in too, which is a little different from the norm. Probably one of the best is to get a partner, and just mess around, try new things, play, create, etc............

[borikensalsero]

You could try to take other dances, then incorporate that in your dance (I guess it is salsa). For instance. When I was starting out in Salsa, someone told me to take a little hustle, I think it make me pretty smooth, so now that is what most people tell me when I dance. Also took some hip hop (back in the day), and Rumba, so I throw that in too, which is a little different from the norm. Probably one of the best is to get a partner, and just mess around, try new things, play, create, etc............

Welcome Mtal! :D :D

My sytle?? Hmmm, none, yeah, that's my style, having no style. :D

[Genesius Redux]

This is a great thread!

But Boriken--I don't believe you have no style. I think that you dance naturally, with no inhibitions, and you do what feels right--but people who see you would be able to say that it's recognizably you. I know what you are talking about--forgetting the limitations of personality and becoming the dance, becoming the salsa, or becoming the Salsa god. But because we are encased in flesh, because we do have joints and musculature that is put together in a specific way, no one person can become the eternal god of Salsa. You will always be the Salsa Made Flesh, pointing the way to the divine in everyone.

But that makes me think of something else. Is style something that can be consciously shaped, as we consciously work on technique? I think that style comes from the way we execute technique, but I don't know whether we can really control that.

Any thoughts?

[Sakura]

But that makes me think of something else. Is style something that can be consciously shaped, as we consciously work on technique? I think that style comes from the way we execute technique, but I don't know whether we can really control that.

Any thoughts?

Well, you asked for thoughts! (Not that mine are worth much... I don't even think they hit the 2 cents mark, but I'll try anyway! :roll: )

To a degree, I believe that style can be consciously shaped. If a person has been working on a step for a while, and they've got it down, but they'd really like to put a certain twist on it, and they like that, so they try a similar twist to a move that goes with the first modified move, style can start being developed there. So, soon, a person has a little twist that can be seen throughout his/her moves.

But then, the unconsciousness must also play a part. A person may start doing a move a certain way, without even thinking about it. They might put special emphasis on a certain count; especially if they're dancing to a song with a heavy back-beat. So style can come and go from song to song, just depending on what a person's feeling at any given time.

:? Hope that made sense!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[borikensalsero]

NOOOOO GR NOOOOOO, don't take my one claim to fame from me...

It all depends, there are two words that are closely linked in salsa but not the same. Some might even interchange the words, even if the know there is a difference. One is flava and the other is style. Style can certainly be developed and enhanced through technique.

Flava, however, is a completely different animal that the dancer has to let loose. Hence, when a latino says to a non latino that they have flavor it ought to be the ultimate compliment! It by passes all skill and no skill levels and goes right to the root of the dancer. For flavor has the least bit to do with style, except that a person can be said to have a style of flavor. A person can have style, however, doesn't necessarily mean they have flavor. But, a person that has flava has a style, the flava becomes the style... Looking like our own person is style, but looking like ourselves doesn’t necessarily equates to having flavor.

Not to be mean to ballroom dancers, but most of the ballroom dancers I've seen have absolutely no flavor, yet have their unique style.

I would love to mention names that we all (Salseros) know so I can give a picture of how style and flavor defer, but I won't do that, that is mean!

Ok, lets look at bands, they all have their own style, however, some are certainly much more flavorful than others. For instance, Johnny Pacheco has never been thought off as anywhere close to a virtuoso, yet he is seen as one of the most flavorful flute players in salsa history. Not because of how good his technique was, but what he got out of his flute that literally made your hairs stand up. Even if it wasn't as sophisticated or technically sound as Fajardo's flute riffs, Pacheco is still seen as a maestro in flavor. Wayne Gorbea has by far much more flavor than the Spanish Harlem Orquestra. Wayne Gorbea has what we call a PICANTE side, if you hear a Salsero say picante, it means that there is flavor in the music. SPO creates a great deal of intricate sounds, descargas, etc in their music, however, the skill level they’ve attained in their instruments still has yet to create a flavor paralleled to that of Wayne Gorbea.

Some time back I made the reference to flavor and compared it to our own Sabor's writing style. He writes just like we all do, just as we all, uniquely. He can even use technique to make his writing even better, however, what differentiates his writing style isn't that he uses his unique style, but that his unique style has flavor. It isn't only different but it is emotionally stirring, hot, image-full, passionate, sensual, inexplicable, it just happens. Style can just happen to, but not necessarily with flavor. Where as another "poet" can have his own unique style, yet not come close to how much flavor Sabor writes with. BTW, sabor does mean flavor in english.

Style can always be copied, can be improved, flavor can't either be copied, or improved. It is just there, it is an extra something that makes style look like it has another gear. It is the difference between totally liking a person, and totality loving a person.

The best way to find flavor is to look at those who "can't" dance a couple dance such as Mambo. Watch them do what ever it is they do, they will all probably look the same, as we all have the same physiology, but a few will just call attention to themselves, not by what they do, but how they do it, not in proper technique but in GOD, falvor. They are just there, they have that little something that allows an instructor to tell a beginner they have flavor. AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Flavor is loving the music so darn much that when you dance you don't see a person, nor technique, but love! All your emotions will stir, not in awe of physical ability, but in awe that someone can manage to let the music show so well through a body whether they can or can’t dance.

Last sentence, it is a fact that today’s mambo world doesn’t not have flavor as a whole. It is very limited to a number of people, where as in the 50s all the way up to the late 70s early 80s flavor is what described the salsa world, and why salsa today is said to look like hustle, yeap hustle has no flavor! It might have style, but has no flavor, but you can add it if you like…

[mellody43]

Wayne Gorbea has by far much more flavor than the Spanish Harlem Orquestra. Wayne Gorbea has what we call a PICANTE side, if you hear a Salsero say picante, it means that there is flavor in the music. SPO creates a great deal of intricate sounds, descargas, etc in their music, however, the skill level they’ve attained in their instruments still has yet to create a flavor paralleled to that of Wayne Gorbea.

...

Style can always be copied, can be improved, flavor can't either be copied, or improved. It is just there, it is an extra something that makes style look like it has another gear. It is the difference between totally liking a person, and totality loving a person.


Flavor is loving the music so darn much that when you dance you don't see a person, nor technique, but love! All your emotions will stir, not in awe of physical ability, but in awe that someone can manage to let the music show so well through a body whether they can or can’t dance.



Great analogies! Thank you!

And I LOVE Wayne Gorbea -- the first time I heard "Yo Yo" and "Canonazos" I nearly fell over - what fun songs!

[salsachinita]

:shock: Wow, am I glad I've lurked on this thread before jumping in!

The following statement pretty much summed it up for my typical term definition approach :D !

One is flava and the other is style. Style can certainly be developed and enhanced through technique.

Style can always be copied, can be improved, flavor can't either be copied, or improved. It is just there, it is an extra something that makes style look like it has another gear. It is the difference between totally liking a person, and totality loving a person.

Ok, to answer Jenn's initial question:
How do you know when you have your own distinctive salsa style?

How long does it take to go from.......imitating someone else's style, to a dancer with your very own flava?

How did you make the breakthrough?

I suspect that I've always had my own flava, eventhough my techniques suck for a long time :oops: (still room for improvements).

My styles are the results of influences. It's ever changing/evolving as new influences come my way (or, more to the point, I actively seek them).

Timeframe....? As long as one takes to feel comfortable enough to not think & just dance!

I've realised each time I've come to the finishing point of my breakthrough, I felt a certain sense of relief. It was as though I felt ready to fly with it, until I felt the needs to look for more challenges & do it all over again :roll: !

[squirrel]

boriken... impressive as always!

I think I somehow connect the 'flava' you are talking about with 'charme'... 'charme' is something you are born with... it doesn't matter if you are young or old, ugly or beautiful, fat or thin... you just have that 'something' that attracts people to you, and this is a 'gift' you are born with!

the same as 'flava'! No matter how many lessons you take, how much you love the music, how many competitions you win... you are a great dancer, but you have no 'flava'! I have to admit I am very sorry that I'll never have it! At least this is my opinion...

I am a trained dancer (and could become world champion, if properly trained)... I am a Salsa instructor... I love this music... I listen only to Salsa! But the flavour... that I would have had to be born with! :cry: :cry:

[borikensalsero]

boriken... impressive as always!

I think I somehow connect the 'flava' you are talking about with 'charme'... 'charme' is something you are born with... it doesn't matter if you are young or old, ugly or beautiful, fat or thin... you just have that 'something' that attracts people to you, and this is a 'gift' you are born with!

the same as 'flava'! No matter how many lessons you take, how much you love the music, how many competitions you win... you are a great dancer, but you have no 'flava'! I have to admit I am very sorry that I'll never have it! At least this is my opinion...

I am a trained dancer (and could become world champion, if properly trained)... I am a Salsa instructor... I love this music... I listen only to Salsa! But the flavour... that I would have had to be born with! :cry: :cry:

Last night I had a long conversation with my brother as to how to explain falva to someone whose society hasn't introduced it to... today you give me a great example of how to convey that message; charm!

Now, squirrel, I agree that falva is something that a person just has. However, I too see it as able to be passed on, not through physical rules, but by way of the mind and the heart. When all technique is taken out of the dance what is left? That something should be flava as opposed to nothing, the love that makes your body groove.

It is a view of love and dance that we have developed without our conscious knowledge, or consciously... It's that same dynamic that is said to be missing from Martial Arts in America as opposed to their home country. It is the translation of a way of life/thinking, from thought, to action. If the thinking is missing, then the physical action will be an incomplete result, even if technique is executed with pinpoint accuracy.

Always keep in mind that when a person does something without their conscious knowledge, their subconscious is acting upon it, creating that very thing they know not, where it is coming from, and leads me to say that if you can get in touch, or even introduce a view that will open up another way of seeing dance, the final result can only be of flava. For you have flooded the banks of the river with what it needed to expand its realms to different locations. Flava busts out of the seems, not because you are teaching your body something, but because your mind, consciously found, the trigger it needed to give you the flava that others unconsciously have.

All humans have the same abilities to feel and dance as one another, limited of course by physical conditions, the issue isn't learning the technique but learning a way of thinking, hence, lessening the obstacle the mind creates. In turn enabling us to reach emotions/things others feel/can do, which at one point in our lives we didn’t, the difference was… a change in our way of thinking.

It is "never" a physical question, but rather one of control by the mind! That is where flava roots its self, the ability to pass on information that your soul oozes, through the brain, down to the body and final result in the dance... FLAVA!!!

[Sabor]

8) :mrgreen:

[Sakura]

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Boriken, once again, your words are excellent!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[borikensalsero]

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Boriken, once again, your words are excellent!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

Thank you so very much Sakura. :oops: :D

[Lita_rulez]

[...]

It is a view of love and dance that we have developed without our conscious knowledge, [...] It is the translation of a way of life/thinking, from thought, to action. If the thinking is missing, then the physical action will be an incomplete result, even if technique is executed with pinpoint accuracy.

[...]For you have flooded the banks of the river with what it needed to expand its realms to different locations.

[...]
the issue isn't learning the technique but learning a way of thinking, hence, lessening the obstacle the mind creates. [...]

It is "never" a physical question, but rather one of control by the mind! That is where flava roots its self, the ability to pass on information that your soul oozes, through the brain, down to the body and final result in the dance... FLAVA!!!


Mode =Matrix= ON
Why god why, didn't I take the blue pill
Mode =Matrix= OFF

8)

[borikensalsero]

[...]

It is a view of love and dance that we have developed without our conscious knowledge, [...] It is the translation of a way of life/thinking, from thought, to action. If the thinking is missing, then the physical action will be an incomplete result, even if technique is executed with pinpoint accuracy.

[...]For you have flooded the banks of the river with what it needed to expand its realms to different locations.

[...]
the issue isn't learning the technique but learning a way of thinking, hence, lessening the obstacle the mind creates. [...]

It is "never" a physical question, but rather one of control by the mind! That is where flava roots its self, the ability to pass on information that your soul oozes, through the brain, down to the body and final result in the dance... FLAVA!!!


Mode =Matrix= ON
Why god why, didn't I take the blue pill
Mode =Matrix= OFF

8)

LOLOL!!! :lol: :lol:

[Sakura]

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Boriken, once again, your words are excellent!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

Thank you so very much Sakura. :oops: :D




Mode =Matrix= ON
Why god why, didn't I take the blue pill
Mode =Matrix= OFF

8)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So funny!

SK :kitty:

[ThatHaitianSwede]

Last sentence, it is a fact that today’s mambo world doesn’t not have flavor as a whole. It is very limited to a number of people, where as in the 50s all the way up to the late 70s early 80s flavor is what described the salsa world, and why salsa today is said to look like hustle, yeap hustle has no flavor! It might have style, but has no flavor, but you can add it if you like…

I like this thread. I completely agree that salsa has so much more room for expression and flava than a lot of other ballroom type dances and hustle and such. Not so much cuz of the dances themselves, but a lot of the time I guess because of what those dancers have as a goal.

I got a question though, and ya'll might have already talked about this cuz it's fundemental in the diff. between street salsa and ballroom salsa so I hope this isn't redundant. But I notice that in my salsa, I use the slot a lot, as in hustle kinda slot. And when I hit the club I notice that a slot is much less significant or sometimes not even there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, is this something that helps restrict salsa and hence reduce the street style & flava :?:

[borikensalsero]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, is this something that helps restrict salsa and hence reduce the street style & flava :?:

It all depends where you are from, in NY City Salsa is danced on the slot. It is simply a rule that is followed, which I really don't :shock: . Different parts of the world don't use that concept, especially if dancing cuban, or colombia style.

Slot, per se, doesn't restrict the flava, nor the street feel. You can still look street and flavorfull, even within that basic slot rule. Street Style and Flava aren't related at all to slot dancing. It seems so in ballroom because, as you mentined, they have a given style to achieve. They baiscally seek a different technique and style than that of street salsa, hence the difference.

[Sakura]

I'm a bit confused here, so I was hoping, Boriken, and the rest of you here might be able to help me out:

I think I skimmed this (barely!) with my teacher during my first private Salsa lesson, but: What is the difference between the Ballroom and Street Salsa styles?

I know that must sound REALLY oblivious, but I want to elaborate here!

Is it more that in Street, one is going to get "more into it," thus more hip motion, maybe less patterned, so the dance is more spontaneous? So then that leads Ballroom to be "tamer" and more structured?

I was just wondering, because I see different styles and types of dances I do thrown out all the time, so then I'm never sure what I'm doing!!! :shock: :oops: :shock:

SK :kitty:

[ThatHaitianSwede]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, is this something that helps restrict salsa and hence reduce the street style & flava :?:
Slot, per se, doesn't restrict the flava, nor the street feel. You can still look street and flavorfull, even within that basic slot rule. Street Style and Flava aren't related at all to slot dancing. It seems so in ballroom because, as you mentined, they have a given style to achieve. They baiscally seek a different technique and style than that of street salsa, hence the difference.

cool

I think, Sakura, that it must be something inbetween feeling, and attitude. I know that when I went to ballroom dancing as a beginner I felt . . . I don't want to say intimidated but something along those lines. And I know that when I went to the club I felt almost at home right away. My ballroom club is part of a University, and so every Sunday when I dance so does the 'ballroom dance team'. Very high level, (National Champions for two years now) and they put huge emphasis on technique and patterns etc. But at the club it's different. It's just about dancing, and Leading to the music. Because if I were to dance with the national champion in Mambo or Chacha, and I led something that isn't on the syllabus I've found that they might not feel I'm doing it correct. If I did two patterns the whole time at ballroom I'd feel kinda stupid. At the club . . . it's totally okay, besides there ain't even enough room to do all the ballroom glitz and fancy hand work. Anwway that's what I've gathered from previous threads at this board and from my own reckoning.

[Sakura]

:D Thanks for that, THS! Sounds about what I was wondering... Anyone else want to offer insights?

SK :kitty: