[RANT] Photographers

[Gssh]

I just realized that i really am starting to dislike when people take photographs at milongas. I was planning to go to a milonga tonight and my first thought was not "I hope there is a good crowd" or "I hope the DJ does a good job", but "I hope there are not too many people taking photos". Recently there has been weird influx of people whose main objective at milongas is to take photographs (with flash), or film the dancers (sometimes even with really, really annoying spotlights mounted on their semi-professional digital cameras). Now if there is only one person doing this it is semi-bearable, but sometimes there are four or five of them, and the click-click-click of shutters starts to be almost as loud as the music, and at least one of them is crouching somewhere trying to take cool shots of feet, and of course they are completely invisible and make me worried about stepping on them, and others think walking onto the dance floor and tracking people, or standing in the middle and taking panorama shots is ok. And it is obvious that they don't think they are a problem - it is the same logic as used by people with bad floorcraft - they don't realize that the real problem for the flow of the dancefloor is not bumping into people/being bumped, but the ripple effects that they create in their wake as other people maneuver to avoid them.

Gssh
(feeling a bit better now :) )

[Madahlia]

I just realized that i really am starting to dislike when people take photographs at milongas.

*Rant*

Gssh
(feeling a bit better now :) )

Absolutely agree. Ban the lot of them!

[dchester]

What I really hate is when one of those clowns then posts thumbnails (proofs) on a website and tries to charge for them.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/soapbox.gif

[AndaBien]

[quote=Gssh;850523]... but "I hope there are not too many people taking photos".../quote]

Agree completely. I think it should be the sponsors responsibility to inform these people that flash photography or interfering with dancing is not permitted.

[ant]

[quote=Gssh;850523]... but "I hope there are not too many people taking photos".../quote]

Agree completely. I think it should be the sponsors responsibility to inform these people that flash photography or interfering with dancing is not permitted.

These photos also seem to end up on Facebook and then someone thinks you want it tagged.

[DL]

+1, in the ballroom world, during classes and during social dances.

If you *must* wander the floor taking pictures of individuals, at least have the decency to make eye contact with me and ask permission.

If you *must* take a picture of the whole floor -- take ONE. Quit annoying me with the flash.

To venues that say "dance here and you agree we can put a photo of you on our webpage" -- I still object to the photo being offered for sale. Photos for publicity purposes I can grudgingly (albeit minimally) understand; but attempting to exploit my image for direct financial gain -- having charged me admission in the first place -- really riles me.

[nucat78]

+1, in the ballroom world, during classes and during social dances.

If you *must* wander the floor taking pictures of individuals, at least have the decency to make eye contact with me and ask permission.

If you *must* take a picture of the whole floor -- take ONE. Quit annoying me with the flash.



+1.

I was at a social awhile back and I was momentarily flashblinded about 5 times. Since then, any time I see a photographer, I try to lead DP away as far as possible.

Meh, maybe holding up your middle finger anytime someone aims a camera at you? :twisted:

[Zoopsia59]

Rude photographers are a nuisance anywhere they go. The problem is not with someone taking pictures at the dance, it is the behavior of certain people who do. (sorta like the nuevo isn't automatically a problem, its that some dancers are a problem regardless of what they dance, but they happen to dance nuevo) Just think how annoying these photographers would be if they were actually dancing on the floor with you! Rude, oblivious people thinking only of their own needs are obnoxious. Period.

I sometimes take photos during dance events and I always clear it with an organizer. I also specifically clear it with both an organizer and the performers if there is a pro couple doing a demo that I'd like to photograph. I never use a flash. Ever. And I've gotten many really crappy shots because of the combination of dim light and fast movement. Oh well, them's the breaks. Still not gonna use a flash at a dance, no matter how dark it is.

If I crouch to get "shoe shots", I do it in a corner, well out of the way, because I know the leader can't see me down there. I stand well out of the way to get general shots. If the music is quiet (during a demo or tanda) I wait for a louder section. If I'm shooting a demo, I stand well away from other people if I can.

And I also never post (or turn over to an organizer for website use) pictures that are not flattering to the subjects. I usually give a free print to the subject of any really nice shot I manage to take. I've never had a complaint, but I have had surprise and genuine gratitude for the picture.

I have untagged myself in other people's photos though. Why does anyone ever post a photo of someone that is unflattering unless they WANT to annoy them? Baffling.

Photography isn't the problem... it's the people who do it that are sometimes a problem.

[Peaches]

Rude photographers are a nuisance anywhere they go. The problem is not with someone taking pictures at the dance, it is the behavior of certain people who do. (sorta like the nuevo isn't automatically a problem, its that some dancers are a problem regardless of what they dance, but they happen to dance nuevo) Just think how annoying these photographers would be if they were actually dancing on the floor with you! Rude, oblivious people thinking only of their own needs are obnoxious. Period.

I sometimes take photos during dance events and I always clear it with an organizer. I also specifically clear it with both an organizer and the performers if there is a pro couple doing a demo that I'd like to photograph. I never use a flash. Ever. And I've gotten many really crappy shots because of the combination of dim light and fast movement. Oh well, them's the breaks. Still not gonna use a flash at a dance, no matter how dark it is.

If I crouch to get "shoe shots", I do it in a corner, well out of the way, because I know the leader can't see me down there. I stand well out of the way to get general shots. If the music is quiet (during a demo or tanda) I wait for a louder section. If I'm shooting a demo, I stand well away from other people if I can.

And I also never post (or turn over to an organizer for website use) pictures that are not flattering to the subjects. I usually give a free print to the subject of any really nice shot I manage to take. I've never had a complaint, but I have had surprise and genuine gratitude for the picture.

I have untagged myself in other people's photos though. Why does anyone ever post a photo of someone that is unflattering unless they WANT to annoy them? Baffling.

Photography isn't the problem... it's the people who do it that are sometimes a problem.
For the win.

Am I the only one who just doesn't care about people taking photos? I haven't encountered anyone taking pictures of a milonga that has been disruptive.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Flashes are annoying. Otherwise I don't care, as long as photographers do not go onto the floor. It would be also nice if whoever took my pictures in milongas, shared them with me. I would like to have some for memories.

[Captain Jep]

Personally I much prefer seeing video. But that's another topic ... ;)

No, rarely bothered by photographers. The only times I have been aware of it have been the open air events. Like the one at Regents Park in London. But then IMO you have to accept it when dancing out in the open - it just comes with the territory.

I think it's crazy taking photos at a milonga - as has been said, the combination of low light and movement makes it hardly worth the effort. Much better to take photos at a tea dance , where there is lots of light and people are more relaxed.

[jantango]

The milongas of Buenos Aires were different years ago before the steady flood of tourists with digital cameras. Ten years ago it was rare to see a camera at a milonga. For this reason, there are few photos and recordings of the milongueros. It just wasn't done. The milonga was a place to dance. Tango was the priority.

There are still organizers who won't permit filming in their milonga. It is always best to ask first. Many believe that dancers would appreciate being filmed for posterity, but when you know that many are escaping from their spouses to dance, it sheds a different light on the subject. They don't want to be discovered on the internet! It's more likely today than ever with all the documentary films being made about tango in BsAs. This goes on all the time.

When milongueros are dancing, they are oblivious to anyone filming them because they are in the music. I ask permission first before filming anyone as a matter of courtesy.

Unfortunately, foreigners conduct themselves in Buenos Aires as they do at home. They think nothing of taking photos and videos in the milongas without the permission of the dancers. The result is thousands of exhibition videos on YouTube.

[Zoopsia59]

What I really hate is when one of those clowns then posts thumbnails (proofs) on a website and tries to charge for them.



Actually, they have no right to sell an image of someone who hasn't given permission. The subject of a photo must either share profit from the image or waive rights by giving them (or selling them) to the photographer. It's called a Model Release, and unless the photo was taken on public property, anyone identifiable in a picture must give permission for the photographer to profit from the image.

Attempting to sell the image to the subject is legally different, but I agree it's annoying. (and if there are other identifiable people in the picture besides the person paying for the photo, the model release rule still applies)

Most Tango events are held on private property. There is a grey zone I'm not clear on between "Public property" (such as a sidewalk) and "Open to the public" (like a restaurant). Many places that are open to the public are still actually private property. I always err on the side of getting permission, even on public land.

Note however, that the way paparazzi get around this is that the photographer must be on public property, not necessarily the subject (if the subject can be seen from public property) Also, there are exceptions that I don't quite know the law of for "Public Figures" who have a reasonable expectation of being photographed anywhere they go. I doubt even the most famous tango performer/dancer would be considered a public figure.

[opendoor]

What I really hate is when one of those clowns then posts thumbnails (proofs) on a website and tries to charge for them..

dchester, but sometimes really transcendent moments are captured

For instance take a look at the TangoMagia (Amsterdam) album of my fb friend Mathias http://matutephotography.com :
I like this one of Gaston and Moira http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs775.ash1/166576_481810796694_532861694_6413663_4537486_n.jp g

And I also can identify with the foto he took of me http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs541.ash1/31681_389376141694_532861694_4520541_1838676_n.jpg The fotos taken at that evening are somekind magical http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fbid=389374341694&id=532861694&aid=175645

[dchester]

The photographers and video cameras rarely bother me. I just don't like it at all when someone tries to charge for the pictures. If you took a picture of me (without my permission), just give me a copy (or post it on-line for free). Don't try to sell me a copy of it.

[Zoopsia59]

There are still organizers who won't permit filming in their milonga. It is always best to ask first. Many believe that dancers would appreciate being filmed for posterity, but when you know that many are escaping from their spouses to dance.

I always heard that photography was strictly prohibited in the afternoon milongas for exactly that reason. The evening milongas on weekends were less of an issue for wayward spouses, but the afternoon milongas were commonly attended by people conducting affairs or getting away from their spouse.

I wanted to take a few pictures of the milongas, but the shot I wanted to get would have been impossible without doing something REALLY objectionable like standing on a table. I wanted shots of the entire floor, including surrounding tables (individuals would have been difficult, if not impossible, to identify) I wanted to show the general ambience and also the density of the crowds.

Of course, I didn't make any attempt to get such a shot. To do it effectively, it would have to be arranged ahead of time and probably done from a ladder. Unless there was an upper level of sorts to the room, it would not be possible to do it spontaneously or unobtrusively, and the recognizability of subjects would be the least of the problems!

[Zoopsia59]

The photographers and video cameras rarely bother me. I just don't like it at all when someone tries to charge for the pictures. If you took a picture of me (without my permission), just give me a copy (or post it on-line for free). Don't try to sell me a copy of it.

Just tell the photographer that you will be happy to buy a copy of the photo, but you would like to receive as your share of the sale, 100% of the profits. :cool:

[Madahlia]

......but sometimes really transcendent moments are capturedMaybe. But why? For whose benefit? I'd rather live a transcendent moment than be an image of one any time.


When milongueros are dancing, they are oblivious to anyone filming them because they are in the music. This is the state I would like to aim for. It takes absolute concentration and focus, as far as I can see, which is not encouraged by distractions such as photographers. Seeing a photographer immediately makes me think about what I look like from the outside whereas the important thing is how the dance feels from the inside. I can do without anything that encourages self-consciousness, I want to lose myself. The dance is not about showing off, or being an art object for people on the outside looking in as passive observers, it's about being actively in the moment.

I can see that some dancers should be recorded for posterity but I don't think, ahem, that I would fall into that category. I can understand people wanting a few snapshots for their personal memories, but trawling milongas with an intrusive lens for unspecified art or business purposes should not be permitted, IMO.

[opendoor]

I'd rather live a transcendent moment than be an image..

I would prefer to live or dance these moments, too! But, I am a leader, and thus, these moments are very rare on a crowded dancefloor. Once in a while I can change the parts and take the following role. Then a transcendent moment may appear. But not, when leading. So these photos have a different function for me than for you.

[salthepal]

If someone is crouched in the middle of the dance floor trying to take a cool picture (one wonders if they're only trying to get a cool shot of tango feet, or a more nefarious shot), then that is probably the one occasion where a properly aimed high boleo might be justified :)

[rain_dog]

Actually, they have no right to sell an image of someone who hasn't given permission. The subject of a photo must either share profit from the image or waive rights by giving them (or selling them) to the photographer. It's called a Model Release, and unless the photo was taken on public property, anyone identifiable in a picture must give permission for the photographer to profit from the image.

I don't think this is quite correct. The law is complicated and varies by location, but my understanding (google 'danheller model-release-primer' - can't post the URL) is that model releases are required for commercial publication, and the requirement is for the publisher, not the photographer. The photographer is free to sell the photograph to whomever, but if it's published commercially, the publisher would need to get model releases.

So the photographer can take a photograph, put it on her website, hang it in her gallery, sell prints made from the photograph, and even sell it to a newspaper for publication (journalism exemption) all without a model release. But, for instance, Comme Il Faut can't use the photograph to advertise without one.

[jantango]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pso1hLNsSqw&feature=fvst

This is an example of someone filming in the milonga for business purposes. He was not there to dance, only to film for his youtube site, and then leave. I don't know whether or not he spoke with Celia Blanco.

When he arrived at my corner of the room and pointed the camera at me, I waved my finger at him. You'll see me doing so in the video. I didn't know who he is nor why he was filming.

The video will give those of you who don't plan to visit BsAs an idea of the neighorhood, the milonga, and the dancing on Sunday at Lo de Celia Tango Club (my second home for ten years).

[AndaBien]

...When he arrived at my corner of the room and pointed the camera at me, I waved my finger at him. You'll see me doing so in the video...

Sorry, I didn't see that. Where was it that you flipped him the finger?

[jantango]

I indicated "no, no" that I didn't want to be filmed. It's in the video.

Later I viewed the website and see that it's a business. He was probably the guy sent out to film in the milongas so they could offer their tour services for 60 DOLLARS A NIGHT (240 pesos) for one person to one milonga. That's ridiculous, but there will be people who will pay for it. He was hired because he has a digital camera, but he had absolutely no interest in what he was filming. He was there to record. Even the way he held the camera without watching what he was filming was odd.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I indicated "no, no" that I didn't want to be filmed. It's in the video.

Later I viewed the website and see that it's a business. He was probably the guy sent out to film in the milongas so they could offer their tour services for 60 DOLLARS A NIGHT (240 pesos) for one person to one milonga. That's ridiculous, but there will be people who will pay for it. He was hired because he has a digital camera, but he had absolutely no interest in what he was filming. He was there to record. Even the way he held the camera without watching what he was filming was odd.

What do people get for this money, what kind of service?

[jantango]

The website http://www.latidobuenosaires.com/milongatourbuenosairestango.html details their milonga services: transportation to and from the milonga, a tango class, and entrance to a milonga. The total cost for this is variable depending on where you live, who is teaching the class, etc., but it's not worth 60 dollars unless they guarantee a tanda with a milonguero or milonguera.

The same page includes videos of the milongas so that clients can select the milonga of their choice.

You and I know that we can get a bus or subte to Lo de Celia for 1.25, pay the 20-peso entrada, have a drink for 8 pesos, and take a taxi home for less than the service charges.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

The website http://www.latidobuenosaires.com/milongatourbuenosairestango.html details their milonga services: transportation to and from the milonga, a tango class, and entrance to a milonga. The total cost for this is variable depending on where you live, who is teaching the class, etc., but it's not worth 60 dollars unless they guarantee a tanda with a milonguero or milonguera.

The same page includes videos of the milongas so that clients can select the milonga of their choice.

Wow, and to think that I did that for free for a friend... well, she paid her own entrance, and for the taxi back home. :)

[Madahlia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pso1hLNsSqw&feature=fvst

This is an example of someone filming in the milonga for business purposes. He was not there to dance, only to film for his youtube site, and then leave. I don't know whether or not he spoke with Celia Blanco.

When he arrived at my corner of the room and pointed the camera at me, I waved my finger at him. You'll see me doing so in the video. I didn't know who he is nor why he was filming.

The video will give those of you who don't plan to visit BsAs an idea of the neighorhood, the milonga, and the dancing on Sunday at Lo de Celia Tango Club (my second home for ten years).

I found this video fascinating and informative, which undermines my arguments against filming, of course.

If I was planning a visit to Lo de Celia, this would answer many questions, such as the layout of the room, what to wear (i.e. normal stuff) the degree of formality, the dance expectations and the general atmosphere.

Watch out for Jantango wagging her finger very strictly at the left of the screen at about 9:20. I wanted to watch what happened at the end of the tanda to see if any obvious cabaceoing was going on. There's a guy in a blue shirt who walks over to a lady diagonally opposite him on the LH corner of the screen - he just seemed to walk over and offer his hand in a normal, non-mysterious kind of way - I think it was too far from his seat to have been able to make eye contact before he got up and started walking.

[Joe]

Actually, they have no right to sell an image of someone who hasn't given permission. The subject of a photo must either share profit from the image or waive rights by giving them (or selling them) to the photographer. It's called a Model Release, and unless the photo was taken on public property, anyone identifiable in a picture must give permission for the photographer to profit from the image.
Does a Model Release apply to countries other than the USA?

[ant]

The subject of a photo must either share profit from the image or waive rights by giving them (or selling them) to the photographer. It's called a Model Release, and unless the photo was taken on public property, anyone identifiable in a picture must give permission for the photographer to profit from the image.


Many organisers cover this in their terms and conditions of entry. Or is this not a valid way of covering the point because each person has to give individual permission?

[DL]

I found this video fascinating and informative, which undermines my arguments against filming, of course.


No it doesn't.

The fact that people find it useful/enjoyable to see photos/videos, and the fact that some people enjoy/don't mind being recorded, don't change the fact that some people very much do mind being recorded (particularly without permission and for commercial purposes).

[Zoopsia59]

Does a Model Release apply to countries other than the USA?

I'm not sure of what you are asking.

If you mean. "do you need a model release if you are photographing in other countries?" then I don't know the answer. In many countries it is considered extremely rude to photograph someone even on the street without permission. Whether or not it is a violation of anyone's rights to share profit to do so, I don't know.

Most of the photographers I know who have traveled extensively (and there was a recent show here of 4 people who between them have travel 95% of the world) always ask. If approaching the person might alter significantly the effect they want, they might take the picture then show it to the subject (ah, the wonders of the digital age) or ask permission then take a few more in addition to the one they were trying to get all along. (I wish I had done this in San Telmo when I wanted a picture of a guy I bought artwork from.. he was very happy to oblidge, but I wanted a picture of him working on the unfinished piece on his board. He would NOT stop smiling at the camera and "posing" :))

Even photojournalists often ask permission, and some of the most iconic photos were taken only after permission was obtained. Serious travel photographers educate themselves on the cultural expectations, patterns and laws of the countries they visit. The rules and cultural practices in the US concerning what you can photograph are often more lax than other countries, not less.

Generally speaking, things like street performances are exempt because they are have a reasonable expectation of being photographed (especially by tourists). The whole issue is usually centered around whether or not the subject should have an expectation of being photographed. Therefore, photography related to news gathering or a newsworthy event and it's environs is usually exempt as well. The other issue is often related to whether the subject has an expectation of privacy. being on the street (in the US) typically negates that expectation.

Things also get very tricky when minors are involved regardless of venue.

However, if you are asking if a photo taken in the states can be used abroad without a model release, then the answer is still No. Keep in mind however, that it is up to the subject to find out and bring suit. Usually this would be a civil suit. (not a criminal matter) It's also a different matter from someone violating the photographer's copyright by using or distributing the photo.

[Zoopsia59]

Many organisers cover this in their terms and conditions of entry. Or is this not a valid way of covering the point because each person has to give individual permission?

As applies in the US:

I believe that if the terms and conditions of entry are posted or made known, it covers it. I'm not sure what happens if the terms are "implied" or if they have it in the by-laws somewhere, but someone would have to do serious impractical research to find out they agreed to those terms when they entered.

Keep in mind though, that we are still talking about a Civil case, not a criminal one (after a certain level of damage, it becomes a felony, but we are hardly discussing anything on that level). As annoying as it might be to find out there are some photos of you dancing badly on someone's Flickr stream or tango organizer's website, to go beyond requesting that the photo be removed is hardly worth it. You'd have to prove some sort of actual damage from the publication of the photo when there is no financial stake involved.

Everyone and their cousin has a pocket Point-n-shoot camera these days. You're going to be on the web somewhere (must make it quite scary for people in the Witness Protection Program) Serious photographers don't want to take a chance by having a shot picked up by Getty and then be unusable ("stock" agencies are very strict about model releases due to the level of distribution of the image) exhibited in a show (and asked to take it down) or sold.

However, the 3 dozen people at the milonga with their modern day equivalents of the "instamatic" aren't going to be doing these things. It's become common for people to take a camera to a milonga and at least photograph friends in groups smiling for the camera. Therefore, by attending a milonga, you have a reasonable expectation of ending up in someone's photo, even if you're just in the background. You don't have a lot of recourse with the "average joe" who posts your picture to facebook or flickr, other than to request it's removal. The pro photographers and anyone who financially profits from the photo.. that's a different story (and where the model release comes in)

[nucat78]

The same guy flashed me full in the face in quickstep last night. I was going to go back and coldcock the sucker but DP stopped me. Meh, no point getting hauled up on A&B charges... Dance rage - what a concept. LOL!

[Joe]

LOL...took me a moment to figure out what you meant by "flashed." :D

[bordertangoman]

The same guy flashed me full in the face in quickstep last night. I was going to go back and coldcock the sucker but DP stopped me. Meh, no point getting hauled up on A&B charges... Dance rage - what a concept. LOL!

can somebody translate this please?

[Madahlia]

can somebody translate this please?

It's either extremely lewd or extremely violent!

[dchester]

It's either extremely lewd or extremely violent!
I believe it's choice: B, violent.

He was going to punch the guy out, but his partner got him to reconsider, as he realized that getting arrested for Assault & Battery probably wasn't the best way to handle to situation.

[newbie]

can somebody translate this please?


Guys blinds him with flash.
He wants kick the guy.
Partner says don't.
Inner voice says don't, you'll be sued.
He thinks, damn by good'ol days in BsAs I'd knife guy's throat.

[Madahlia]

Assault & Battery .

A&B=GBH in British. Grievous Bodily Harm. Rather quaint in either language.

[Subliminal]

I haven't noticed much of that going on at the dances I've been to. Luckily. There are a few peeps in my community I'd trust to get good pictures and be unobtrusive, but I'd rather not show up on film at all. :)

One thing I do sort of wish there was in the AT world is the BR phenomenon of the showcase. If there were a dedicated place to showboat and take pretty pictures of show tango steps, it might help keep showboaters off the social floor. Maybe. ;-)