Do you have to rotate to progress?

[pygmalion]

It's common dance class wisdom that you will get better faster, as a lead or follow, only if you rotate partners, so that you can used to dancing with a variety of people. Is that really true? I just saw an article online which challenges that notion pretty successfully, and suggests that there are some very good ways to ensure your dance progress without ever having to rotate. Hmm. (I won't post the article here. That would spoil the punchline, and maybe the discussion as well. :wink: )

What do you think about this? Why do people rotate, anyway? Is rotating always a good thing? Are you really doing yourself harm as a dancer, if you choose to stick with primarily one dance partner? Thoughts?

[Chris Stratton]

I think the safety of rotating depends a lot on if there are other people around who you can dance with without getting very distracted from what you are trying to work on at that point in time (or maybe, what you _should_ be trying to work on)

The safety of NOT rotating would depend on what mechanisms a partnership has in place to catch any strange complementary habits that might be developing. Not using fixed routines would help a lot, as would doing even a limited amount of dancing with a teacher, compatible friend, or some reference/evaluation person external to the partnership.

A good example would be much of this past year, during which my then partner and I did very little dancing with anyone else. There were many situations in which I would regularly lead one of several contrasting possibilities to try to maintain that flexibility and communication, but compensatory habits still developed. It wasn't until the 2nd time I had real problems dancing foxtrot with a skilled friend that I realized I'd stopped actually leading heel turns. Fortunately, those two social dances highlighted the problem and triggered corrective effort.

[tj]

Here's a case when you will progress quicker without rotating:

When you take a class where the average student is in over his/her head. I remember a few years ago back in Denver, Edie and Al were in town and in their Intermediate/Advanced class they were doing a simple double turn during a c-bl, and there were bunches of women who didn't even know how to do a c-b-l.

[Flat Shoes]

You learn a lot from dancing with different partners, that you can't learn by dancing with one person only. Dancing with only the same person narrows your experience a lot, and it allows you to develop bad habbits and a style of leading and following that will only work between you and your partner. That is because your partner will know you and know what you mean to do, even when it's poorly lead.

However, practicing what you know with different partners doesn't have to be in class. As long as you get to dance with different people socially, you will learn the same thing here.

In class there are pros and cons to changing partners. The worst thing about changing partners are for me that sometimes in breaks things up too much. This is when I'm struggling with somthing, I work together with the current partner to figure out what's wrong and before we can get it to work, we have to change partners and I'm totally lost again. That can be very frustrating.

But in a similar situation, you may struggle with something with one partner. Then we change partners, and the next partner knows exactly what to do.

The best thing about changing partners is that it's very social. You get to talk to a lot of different people, and you can join a class alone without having to fear being stuck with the worst partner in the class.

In my opinion, if the class is teaching [i]social[/] dancing, partner swapping is best. If you're learning competion/performance dancing, I'd prefer not swapping partners.

[dancin_feet]

I don't think you need to rotate partners to progress, but if you don't you will only be able to dance properly with one person. It depends I guess on what you want. If you want to be able to dance socially with everybody, rotating is essential. If you only want to do comp with one partner, rotating is not required.

I would say that the more rotating of partners that you do, the more of an "allrounder" you will become. Slower but more adaptive progress would be made by changing partners. The speed at which you progress would probably be a lot faster if you didn't change partners because you only have one style of lead / follow to adjust to.

[pygmalion]

Here's a question. Do you think one's answer might be dependent on whether they're a social or a competitive dancer? :roll: 8)

[salsachinita]

Definitely!

I know you are talking about a class situation, but it is also true in a club/social only situation, where one dances solely/mainly with one partner limit themselves of certain adaptation skills to be gained from 'dancing widely'.

I know from experience that by dancing solely/mainly with one partner, you do end up looking fantastic, because you are so comfortable with eachother that the connection between you would no doubt be first class.

However, this very comfort zone can also limit your growth as dancers. It's very easy to compensate for eachother's short comings & such things never get smoothed out.

The other issue is personal style (as opposted to 'styles' as in L.A, NY, Cuban, on1/2 etc). Your muscle memories get so in tune with eachother's personal style, that makes dancing with others a little more challenging to 'warm to'.

More of this can be found here: http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4131 so I won't repeat myself.

Now, Jenn, I'm curious.........I would like to read the article you found (enquiring mind.......you know :wink: ?)!

[foursquare]

Here's a question. Do you think one's answer might be dependent on whether they're a social or a competitive dancer? :roll: 8)

I think it depends on what you're out to accomplish by dancing. Is dancing a means to having a fun evening out, or is dancing a means to an end? In other words, is the process of learning to dance a tool to give you skills to enjoy social interaction and meet new people and make new friends, or is it the actual dancing that you're after... not much talk, not much socializing, just bring on the next partner so I can dance, dance, dance?

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(Personally, I'm in it for the fun! You want to dance? Great! You want to chat? Great!)

[MacMoto]

From a social salsa dancer's point of view, I agree with others that dancing with many different partners is crucial in order to improve their lead/follow skills.

In classes, I think whether or not rotating helps depends on the teacher's attitude, i.e., whether or not the teacher is interested in teaching their student lead/follow skills. A good teacher will probably tell the followers that they must not backlead or anticipate, and that they should only move when/if they feel the lead. S/he will tell the leaders to mix, match and break up moves so the follower won't know what's coming. If these things are happening, then yes, rotating helps.

Sadly there are plenty of teachers who are only interested in dispensing turn patterns without teaching (properly) how to lead them. In the first half year of taking group classes as a beginner, I learned nothing about lead and follow because I wasn't taught that the follower's job was not to do patterns but to follow the lead. In group classes where both the leaders and followers are shown new turn patterns at the same time, it's very important for the follower to know this difference and make a point of not moving unless she is led. Without this, rotating will not make any difference as the follower will happily anticipate and compensate for any lack of a clear lead.

[Kitty]

I think that changing partners in a dance class when learning steps doesn't directly teach leading because the girl always knows what is coming, but does help to learn how to do the step with different pople to avoid bad habits.

Also, I think if someone doesn't have a partner or if some people have partners of different levels, changig partners makes it fair.

The 2 downsides that I can see is what has already been said: if you are trying to figure something out with a partner and almost done, then you switch partners and have to start all over again. and another downside is if you want to work on something with your permanent partner, which makes sense in higher level classes.

[Sagitta]

I think it matters whether or not it is for social or competitive dancing. It depends on what your purpose is for learning to dance. If your wish is to dance with your so and only so, then there is absolutely no need to rotate partners and you will make greater progress in learning how to dance with others. And I know a few married couples who have done just that.

[Chris Stratton]

I think that changing partners in a dance class when learning steps doesn't directly teach leading because the girl always knows what is coming, but does help to learn how to do the step with different pople to avoid bad habits.

Certainly knowing what is coming next can lead to 'cheating' on the lead/follow aspect. But there's also a lot of variety in how a step can be done, such that it's pretty easy to tell the difference in group class between someone who is doing it on her own, and someone who follows the specific details of how I am leading it. The connection I feel in the later case, lets me know I have the opportunity to lead extension of some of the movements, accent on certain actions, and development of shapes - to explore what the two of us are capable of together, rather than just get through things by each doing our part. Those competing in moderately high level events can fall into either camp - some are limited to a specific interpretation of a figure, wheras others do an amazing job of "listening" to a temporary partner.

[marykomatsu]

In a social setting rotating is the only way to go. You can have fun meeting new people. Whether you learn anything any faster, well that depends on what you rotated away from and what you rotated into.

In a beginner setting it is all bad, the blind leading the blind, so I guess you can learn to laugh. It is also handy to have rotation so you don't get stuck with some dreadful person you really want to get rid of.

Group class is useful to learn a new pattern or to spot potential partners. From what I see real progress comes from dancers who are in committed partnerships who practice often. Even from the beginner level this seems to hold. So if rotation helps you find a partner, then it is a good thing. Once you have the partner, rotation seems like a waste of time.

[Kitty]

I think that changing partners in a dance class when learning steps doesn't directly teach leading because the girl always knows what is coming, but does help to learn how to do the step with different pople to avoid bad habits.

Certainly knowing what is coming next can lead to 'cheating' on the lead/follow aspect. But there's also a lot of variety in how a step can be done, such that it's pretty easy to tell the difference in group class between someone who is doing it on her own, and someone who follows the specific details of how I am leading it.

Those competing in moderately high level events can fall into either camp - some are limited to a specific interpretation of a figure, wheras others do an amazing job of "listening" to a temporary partner.

I can't do that: I need to dance with a person for a song or two to actually start following (there are exceptions: like dancing with a teacher or a dancer of much higher than my level (usually above gold level) I connect right away. Or I should say they connect:-)) In a class situation when changing partners too often I end up not properly following any of them. However if we stay with same partner for a while (like 2 partners per lesson) - even if the partner is different every time - I can accomplish more.

I'm just saying, the common idea that switching partners teaches you how to dance and lead/follow better should not be taken too literally.


And last thought: maybe I actually need to take classes where I'd be switching partners more often. Maybe then I'd actually learn how to follow each and single one of them and how to connect instantaneously. Then all my complaints above wouldn't be true anymore.

[Chris Stratton]

Probably not every single one of them... you can't really be expected to follow the ones who aren't leading!

[squirrel]

ok, let me give you my opinion:
as a Salsa dancer and instructor, I try and teach guys they should lead and girls not to anticipate the lead and just follow... I hate teaching patterns but they are necessary... imagine a person who's been dancing for 3-4 months (I have some such people who have made good progress)... still, it is difficult for such a person to be creative... they are still thinking what to do next... :) so, I teach them patterns! I showed them the CBL... all sorts of CBLs... with / without turn, with half turn, with / without an open break at the end... still, they are doing the same moves they learned during the classes! I dance with them in the club and they start doing the same thing we have just shown! Many a time I just backlead them into something else (a hand up instead or down, a different way to end a move...) and they go frantic and say "wow, you're so good! I didn't know it can end like this!'... and I'm talking moves that they know, but they have never been shown such a way of combining them! Gosh! The same for girls... they ask me what the correct sequence of steps for a pattern is... and I show them... and then they look at me dance and say "but this is not the way you showed me! you're doing someting else with your feet!" and I say: 'sure I am... I am just dancing! I adjust to the lead and to the music and do what strikes my fancy!'... how to make them understand... I always repeat they should rehearse... :) but they don't! and they get bored the very instant I start talking about technique! this girl came from another instructor, and she told me she had been taking lessons for 9 months... and was very puzzled when I had her do a CBL alone! how come, she asked, why alone?! I can do it with a guy! why do it alone?! and of course she couldn't! she was always losing balance! now she's my student (and never complains when I have her spin by herself or do things alone... :) she learned wha I meant...)

[squirrel]

so: I do rotate my students... and I think it is important to rotate... maybe one gets stuck with somebody who is learning slow... why shouldn't that person have the opportunity to dance with somebody else?

for competition, it's good to have a partner (or 2 or 3... in Salsa I mean) but for social purposes... switch! :)

[bjp22tango]

In my group classes I encourage everyone to rotate, but I let anyone who is uncomfortable with that keep their original partners.

From a beginner standpoint, it is very clear by the end of one class that those who have rotated have picked up a LOT more of the clues about lead and follow, than those who didn't rotate and it only makes sense. They have been exposed to more variances in lead and follow and have more experience with what worked and what didn't. Because they pick up the lead and follow, they also pick up more of the patterns taught.

And in my not so humble opinion 8) , if one of a couple is much better than the other (especially, if the leader is the newbie), send them to private lessons ALONE, until they have the basics down, so they have a chance for survival :wink:

The only time I have my students stick with one partner is when they are learning an exhibition routine. They need to adjust to one partner so they can work on musicality and presentation, instead of readjusting frame.

I teach in a semi rural area of approximately 20,000 people spread over quite a distance. I am lucky in that my students tend to be the more social type of dancer, even if they are married couples. They tend to mix and mingle with one another, and are more apt to ask other people to dance.


However from another viewpoint-
Our area had a dance teacher teaching only couples a few years back. This group loved the teacher. He didn't rotate couples, and they learned patterns, not lead and follow. These classes worked for these couples because they were a "date night" away from kids, work, etc. with their spouses. They weren't planning to dance socially with anyone else. They were taught a few patterns in several smooth and latin dances and they were very happy. When the teacher passed away unexpectedly, they were devestated. At his memorial, several of them credited him with saving their marriages. I see several of them at local dances every once in awhile. They haven't progressed past those "basic" patterns they learned, but they are still able to go out and enjoy a dance together.

[Sagitta]

However from another viewpoint-
Our area had a dance teacher teaching only couples a few years back. This group loved the teacher. He didn't rotate couples, and they learned patterns, not lead and follow. These classes worked for these couples because they were a "date night" away from kids, work, etc. with their spouses. They weren't planning to dance socially with anyone else. They were taught a few patterns in several smooth and latin dances and they were very happy. When the teacher passed away unexpectedly, they were devestated. At his memorial, several of them credited him with saving their marriages. I see several of them at local dances every once in awhile. They haven't progressed past those "basic" patterns they learned, but they are still able to go out and enjoy a dance together.

Very true. People learn dance for different reasons and it is good to cater for as many of them as possible. :)

[pygmalion]

Yes. A dance teacher who's able to accomodate many different student goals is the best kind of dance teacher. 8)

[foursquare]

So, it appears we have a consensus? If your goal is to dance with many people, to get good at it, you should dance with many people. If your goal is to have your one and only dance partner, to get good at it, you should dance with your one and only.

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[Flat Shoes]

So, it appears we have a consensus? If your goal is to dance with many people, to get good at it, you should dance with many people. If your goal is to have your one and only dance partner, to get good at it, you should dance with your one and only.


Wow... that's .. so ... profound! :lol:

[foursquare]

Wow... that's .. so ... profound! :lol:

Profundity in light of the glaringly obvious is just one of my many skills. :)

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