Magic Pill Flyer

[Black Sheep]

Lindy Lovers,
My contribution to the World of Swing is finally here! Go Teach all Nations!
JOE LANZA’S MAGIC PILL
LEARN THE SAVOY STYLE LINDY IN 15 MINUTES WITH THE
LANZA SIX COUNT LINDY
Brief Music Lesson
START ON ANY DOWN BEAT
Basic Lindy Steps are danced to six Quarter Beats or Notes;
RHYTHMIC COUNT: "ONE &TWO, THREE &FOUR, FIVE - SIX"
(The "& 2, & 4 counts take an eighth note each (4 eighths = two Quarter notes);
(the 1, 3, 5, 6 counts take one Quarter beat each: total = four Quarter notes)
"Slow, Quick, Quick Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow, Slow
ONE & TWO THREE & FOUR FIVE SIX
LADY, ON THE 1 &2 ALWAYS travels or turns only on these 3 steps;
LADY ON THE 3 &4 ALWAYS takes 3 steps in-place;
LADY ON THE 5- 6 ALWAYS Rocks Back takes 2 steps.
MAN ON THE 1&2 - 3&4 takes 6 steps in-place, rotating ith the direction of his leads;
MAN ON THE 5--6 ALWAYS Rocks in the direction of his leads;
MAN ON THE 1&2 ALWAYS gives his leads.
TWO PRIMARY RULES
1) PLAY MUSIC CONTINUOUSLY DURING LESSON WITH MEDIUM-SLOW TEMPO;
2) STUDENTS COUNT CONTINUOUSLY DURING LESSON, "1 &2, 3 &4, 5--6".

TEACHING PROCEDURE
1) Start by having students counting, “1 &2 3 &4 5 - 6"
2) Begin lesson in Push Position
On the ‘One & Two’ both take 3 small side steps starting to Man's Left;
On the ‘Three & Four’ both take 3 small side steps to the Man’s Right;
REPEAT these side steps as you both count, "1 &2, 3 &4” continuously;
slowly increase speed until student is in sync with musical Down Beats;
3) Rock Steps: Have student REPEAT Back Rock Steps without side steps,
(2 steps) counting , "5-6, 5-6" until weight changes are well coordinated;
and pick up tempo slowly until student is in sync with Quarter beats of music.
(students have a tendency to rush Rock Steps and fall back on their heels;
correct them)
4) Have student join side steps with Rock Steps, using count: “1 &2, 3 &4, 5-6”
increasing speed until they are in sync with music; (keep student counting in
sync with steps)
Allow students at least a full minute to have them enjoy the euphoria of dancing
on rhythm.
5) Still in Push Position, on the 1 &2, the Lady turns and travels as man raises his
lead hand
on 1 &2 above and to the right of the Lady’s head to indicate a 360 right tuurn
for the Lady;
OR on 1 &2 above and between both bodies to indicate a 360 left turn for the Lady.
REPEAT turns with one complete Basic Step in between turns. (keep up count)
6) Place couple in Closed VEE Body Position and have them do same turns.

ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE ON THE LANZA SIX COUNT LINDY TEACHING METHOD:
EMAIL D.LANZA@NETZERO.NET
AND I WILL ANSWER YOU AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!
Black Sheep

[Black Sheep]

Lindy Lovers,
MAGIC PILL, LANZA SIX COUNT LINDY
(A UNIQUE TEACHING METHOD)
PART II
QUESTIONS ANSWERED
1) Why not begin Lindy at the beginning of a two bar phrase (8 quarter beats)?
Ans: Since Lindy Basic step is 6 Quarter beats, you are out of phrasing at the end of one Basic Pattern, and starting on the Down Beat is more practical and easier to hear and feel.
2) What if you want to substitute a 'Kick Ball Change' for a Rock Step?
Ans: Just add an '&' count between the 5 & 6, a cipher for each move,
timed Q + 2 eighths or Slow, Quick, Quick, same timing as a '1&2'.
3) How do you count a Whip or Turn Rhythm?
Ans: '1&2, 5-6, 1&2 5-6; Just skip the 3&4 counts.
4) What about dancing in a Slot or other techniques?
Ans: techniques and styling pointers are incorporated after this
beginning phase is solidified.
5) What about the Eight count Lindy?
Ans: No such animal; Eight count steps can be incorporated in the
Lindy, but they are either shim sham type steps, Charleston steps or the Big Apple steps like the Suzy Q, Shorty George, or the Boogie Woogie all which are individual moves that are used as breaks in the Lindy but are not part of the integrity of the Rhythmic Savoy Lindy structure. These 8 count moves are easy to stick into the Lindy and in the 1950's in Hollywood we always used these eight count moves part of exhibition dances as Precision routines dancing side by side or facing each other. Eight count moves are fun and easier to incorporate into the Savoy Lindy, but they are not Savoy Lindy.
Next: Savoy Techniques!

[DanceMentor]

What would be the difference is this:
Ans: '1&2, 5-6, 1&2 5-6; Just skip the 3&4 counts
and this?
1&2, 3-4, 5&6, 7-8

What I'm trying to say is the music doesn't skip any beats, so doesn't that make this essentailly and 8-count turn? Or am I missing the point you are trying to make?

[Black Sheep]

DanceMaster asks, "What would be the difference is this:
Ans: '1&2, 5-6, 1&2 5-6; Just skip the 3&4 counts
and this?
1&2, 3-4, 5&6, 7-8

What I'm trying to say is the music doesn't skip any beats, so doesn't that
make this essentially and 8-count turn? Or am I missing the point you are
trying to make?
__________________________________________{_______ _____________
First keep in mind we are only dancing to the down beats on the odd counts,
so there is no such thing as dancing to phrases of 8 Quarter beats,
therefore, we are not 'skipping any beats'.
Second: keep in mind the Lindy Basic Rhythm step is only six Quarter beats
long, although you are taking 8 steps during those 6 Quarter beats; (Triple,
Triple, Rock-Step) In the 'Lanza Six Count Lindy', teaching method, every ciphers whether it is anumber or an '&' count has a specific move that does not change throughout the Basic Savoy Lindy. The ''3 &4" are always taken in-place with whatever
foot variations you take within the parameters of those 2 Quarter beats.
So we do not count 3 &4 for the moves in the Whip when we are moving; the
5-6 ends the whip and we are then into the 1&2 mode for another pull into
another whip, or just return the a complete Basic pattern, '1 &2, 3 &4,
5-6' in place or move into any other basic Lindy move. The MP is always
consistent as to the numbers and what moves those numbers represent. The
only exception is the 5-6 or Rock Step which varies in the Whip.
Using the count '1&2, 3-4, 5&6, 7-8' as you asked about, is not the
structure I use in my Magic Pill teaching method; I never use the numbers
7-8; I count 6 Quarter beats for Basic Steps and only 4 Quarter beats for
the Whip . To put it another way using all numbers, I would count the Whip, 1,2,3
and 1-2, for a complete Whip, the same as my 1&2, 5-6; both ways of counting are
still only 4 quarter beats or (5 steps) for the complete Whip, not 8 Steps
to 6 Quarter beats, which is only a basic Rhythm, not a Whip Rhythm.
In short, the so-called 'Swingout which is a different from the authentic
Savoy whip is really only a Basic rhythm step with the man throwing out the
Lady around his right shoulder instead of his left. Because it takes eight
steps for the lady to get around the man in a 360 circle instead of the
Savoy five step pattern, the Swingout is more of a walk around than a snappy
Whip's run around. One of the reasons WCS dancers like music at 200 bpm is
so their WCS dance looks more exciting when it is rushed. WCS dancers in
general deplore dancing below 150 bpm; it looks and feels too much like
walking. What makes the Savoy Lindy exciting even at the 150 bpm and slower
are the Techniques, which I will share in a future Post.
Thank you DanceMentor for a very pertinent and challenging Question. I
am sure it helps others who might have had the same thought in mind.
Black Sheep

Because it takes eight
steps for the lady to get around the man in a 360 circle instead of the
Savoy five step pattern, the Swingout is more of a walk around than a snappy
Whip's run around.

What does taking 8 steps as opposed to 6 have to do with how "snappy" a move is? Can you make the 8 steps snappy, or can you walk the 6 steps?

If someone does a "snappy Whip's run around" at 50-bpm, and a "eight step 360degree Savoy" at 300-bpm, would the former still look "snappier"?


One of the reasons WCS dancers like music at 200 bpm is
so their WCS dance looks more exciting when it is rushed. WCS dancers in
general deplore dancing below 150 bpm; it looks and feels too much like
walking. What makes the Savoy Lindy exciting even at the 150 bpm and slower
are the Techniques, which I will share in a future Post.

Again, I don't know West Coast Swing very in depth, but don't Modern WCS dancers generally enjoy slower dancing? Who out there does WCS and can help me out?

-FF

[Black Sheep]

Funkyfreak,.
The distance the Lady travels in a 360 circle around the man is the exact same whether it takes her five steps in the Whip or eight steps in the Swingout; if the music tempo is 100 bpm, than if the Lady taking only five streps traveling the same distance 360 around the man on 4 Quarter beats, then she has to travel faster than the lady taking eight steps traveling the same distance around the man on 6 Quarter beats. Just plain simple mathematics.And that is why WCS dancers like fast music above 150 bpm.
When you use the 50 bpm using 5 steps comparing it to 8 steps traveling at 300 bpm, aren't you proving my point?
Black Sheep

[DanceMentor]

Hey Joe,

I did want to say that here in Atlanta slow West Coast music is pretty chic. People like to dance to classic R&B as well as country and pop, but the songs are usually slow. This seems to give more room for the lady to do more prancing. You don't usually see real fast whips. On the other hand, people do a dance they call "Hollywood Lindy" and sometimes you'll see some faster music, but they also dance to slow as well. The Hollywood Lindy is usually a younger crowd, hence the faster high energy music. The WCS is usually a little more mature (but there are young people too), and the music is slower. I've never been to LA, so I'm not sure which music is popular for WCS there.

[SDsalsaguy]

Here in San Diego slow is the way to go.

[d nice]

I do West Coast Swing and have danced in L.A. The average tempo of WCS tend to be 110-135 bpm across the country, some places like it a little faster, some a little slower, but that 25bpm range is what you'll hear the most of.

First keep in mind we are only dancing to the down beats on the odd counts,
so there is no such thing as dancing to phrases of 8 Quarter beats,
therefore, we are not 'skipping any beats'.

We are only dancing to the down beats? What happens to the up beats?

The ''3 &4" are always taken in-place with whatever
foot variations you take within the parameters of those 2 Quarter beats.
So we do not count 3 &4 for the moves in the Whip when we are moving

Question: Why do you stress numbers as having a specific meaning, and force the count to match your method rather than use a method dependant on movement which makes the numbers meaningless as long as you start on any down beat?

The distance the Lady travels in a 360 circle around the man is the exact same whether it takes her five steps in the Whip or eight steps in the Swingout;

...the Lady taking only five streps traveling the same distance 360 around the man...has to travel faster than the lady taking eight steps traveling the same distance around the man.
When you use the 50 bpm using 5 steps comparing it to 8 steps traveling at 300 bpm, aren't you proving my point?

Thank you for your answers Joe. I have a few more questions on them, if I may:

Math was always my weak point, but wouldn't 50bpm broken in a measure of 6 be roughly 8 "whips" done in a minute, and 300bpm broken into counts of 8 be roughly 37 done in a minute? (if you always only kept to a strict count, which was hardly ever done until later years)

Which of those two would require someone to move faster? And what, again, does speed have to do with how "snappy" a swingout/whip looks or feels?

-FF

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
I politely suggest you reread my Magic Pill, the section, 'Brief Music
Lesson', where it states, "START on any Down Beat," If you don't know what
to do on the Up Beats, you are in trouble!
As for 110-135 bpm being the average across the country, Who mentioned
anything about 'across the country'?
D'nice asks:
"Question: Why do you stress numbers as having a specific meaning, and force
the count to match your method rather than use a method dependant on
movement which makes the numbers meaningless as long as you start on any
down beat? "
D'nice, I thought you'd never ask!
If you read my Magic Pill, you will see that my numbers are not only a
guide line to the structure of the Classical Savoy Lindy, but those numbers
separates the Quarter note moves from the 8th beat moves making the system a
rhythmic mechanical unity. So that a dancer learns the patterns, the moves
while the are learning the syncopated rhythm of the Lindy with these
specific counts.
And my friend, D'nice, I sincerely believe, from my 50 + years of
teaching, and I do not means this facetiously, 'Students who ask the most
provocative questions end up being the best advocates of a subject'.
I was always the student in every class room who asked the most provocative
Questions, because I was truly interested in getting at the truth. So I know
where you are coming from and please accept my sincere apology if I
inadvertently was uncivil or rude to you in the past. However, I cannot dig up
all my commentaries for you to answer every question that has been answered
in my past commentaries. They are all available at the URL below:
http://www.dance-forums.com/search.php?search_author=Black+Sheep

I have included one of the 80+ responsaes I have received from my Magic Pill reciepients; it really works!
Mr. Lanza,
I truly benefited from your instruction. Please do place me on your mailing
list. Thank you for this opportunity, and for taking the time to teach
beginner swingers such as myself.
Anson Wong

[Black Sheep]

Funkifreak,
Your math is awesome. My math stopped at 1\2 x 12 , 360 degreres mmake a circle and if one train was going east at 50 bpm and another going West at 300 bpm on the same track, and that's where I get lost!
Black Out Sheep

[Black Sheep]

Slow vs fast,
iI'll be at Camp Hollywood tonight. Lets see how many musical numbers Mora's Modern Rhythmists (http://www.morasmodern.com/) plays at 150 bpm or under?
Black Sheep

[d nice]

Slow vs fast,
iI'll be at Camp Hollywood tonight. Lets see how many musical numbers Mora's Modern Rhythmists (http://www.morasmodern.com/) plays at 150 bpm or under?
Black Sheep

Mora's (a band I love) plays Swing Music for Lindy Hoppers... you are very unlikely to see a West Coast Swing dancer doing West Coast Swing to their music. Since WCS is an outgrowth of Lindy Hop in Southern CA from the late fifties as the music went from swing to more of a blues and rhythm & blues base, they tend to refer to this music of the late 50's to early 60's as their "classic music" rarely dancing to anything before this time period (there are always anomalies) but the lion's share of their music tends to be a lot of Pop, Funk, and R&B from the last decade.

It sounds like when you use the term West Coast Swing you mean the swing dance people on the West Coast do. When most everyone else says West Coast Swing they are refering to a very specific dance. I'd suggest you go to the US Open which will have both West Coast Swing and Lindy Hop and take a look at the two dances when done side by side (well in rooms that are side by side). The difference in the style, rhythms, music, energy, etc. is really obvious.

[d nice]

D'nice,
I politely suggest you reread my Magic Pill, the section, 'Brief Music
Lesson', where it states, "START on any Down Beat," If you don't know what
to do on the Up Beats, you are in trouble!

I know what to do on the down beat in the Lindy Hop Frankie Manning taught me, but in one of your responses about your "Six Count Lanza Lindy" you say First keep in mind we are only dancing to the down beats on the odd counts That is what promted my question. So can I have an answer now?

As for 110-135 bpm being the average across the country, Who mentioned
anything about 'across the country'?

I'll be more specific then. In L.A. the West Coast Swing scene tends to dance to slow modern R&B and Pop music, at an average tempo range of 110-130 bpm. This is ignoring the NC2 songs that get played. The L.A. Lindy Hop scene tends to dance at an average tempo range of 150 bpm to 190 bpm. You have certain venues like the Swing Pit run by Tip and Mike where the tempo range is more like 175-200 bpm, while Lindy Groove is more like 145 to 165.

D'nice asks:
"Question: Why do you stress numbers as having a specific meaning, and force
the count to match your method rather than use a method dependant on
movement which makes the numbers meaningless as long as you start on any
down beat? "

You didn't really answer why you do it this way, you just reiterated the manner in which it is done. I want to know why you chose this method which uses numbers rather than one which is based on relational body movement and voiced rhymthmic patterns, as all other forms of african descended dance is usually done (rhythm tap, hip hop, afro cuban dance, african dance etc.). The dancers learn the patterns with the syncopated rhythm, but does not have to pre-occupy their mind with numbers. I'm just trying to figire out why you'd use a method that has a number scheme that you have to "finesse" to make it work consistently. While I can see it working to get someone on the dance floor quickly, it seems that it may hold them back when they start learning about improvsed footwork and some of the more complex syncopations.

And my friend, D'nice, I sincerely believe, from my 50 + years of
teaching, and I do not means this facetiously, 'Students who ask the most
provocative questions end up being the best advocates of a subject'.

That is what Steven said about me many years ago. I agree.

I was always the student in every class room who asked the most provocative
Questions, because I was truly interested in getting at the truth. So I know
where you are coming from and please accept my sincere apology if I
inadvertently was uncivil or rude to you in the past.

So am I. I tend to be relentless about questions, asking them again and again, rephrasing them until I get an answer that answers my question, because I want to understand the how and the why of a thing. I accept your apology.

[SDsalsaguy]

:shock: ...and world peace ensued :!: :D

[Black Sheep]

D'nice
In teaching and learning both the teacher and the student are always challenged to ask the Questions clearly so that the answer being sought can be clearly delivered.
It's axiomatic, 'Ask the right questions if you want a clear answer!

Black Sheep

[DanceMentor]

I might add a couple of philosophical points:
1) To teach is to learn twice
2) In order to be a good teacher, it is essential to be a good student first.
3) You never get there. You must always be open to learning.

[d nice]

I'm sorry I thought the question was clear enough, I'll try rephrasing it.

Why do you teach swing based off a strict philosophy that certain steps/body movement happen on specific numbers, and when other steps are required to complete a pattern you are forced to "finesse" the counting so it does not disrupt your selected methodology?

I would think that the inclusion or repitition of counts could cause problems when the student is starting to move on to improvisation and syncopating, not just of the base rhythm of their steps, but starts syncopating and swinging the rhythm of the moves.

[d nice]

Perhaps an even more simplified form of the overall question may help me understand the why behind your method.

Which is preferable, getting people on the dance floor as quickly as possible, at the possible expense of difficulty later -OR- some initial diifficulty with the benefit of the dance becoming eaiser as one progresses.

To be honest I don't think it is an either or case... I'm just curious if we are only given these two choices which people would choose, and how revealing it may be about them as people, dancers and teachers.

Personally I would rather there be a little bit of an uphill battle, knowing that once the crest is reached (assuming it is a visible and relatively easily attainable goal) it is coasting the rest of the way...

[Black Sheep]

D'nice'
Why don't you try teaching with my Magic Pill Method a few times, than your critiques would be more constructive and your Questions would be more pertinent, and be more valid. There's a logical saying, "Don't knock it until you've tried it!"
Black Sheep

'The Lindy Hop is America's Cultural Contribution to the World'

[d nice]

The answer is pretty simple... when I asked for the procedures you said no. So I have the material, but no procedure.

And to be perfectly honest, I've used a method like this when I first started teaching ECS. I abandoned it when i started getting heavily into lindy and realized that the kinesthetic methods I was taught in my studies yielded much better results much faster and maintained an internal consistancy that I feel is paramount to good, responsible instruction.

Your procedure may give differing results than mine, though the concept of set steps on a given count is something I am familiar with.

In my experience as a teacher of various physical forms of movement, the best results have always been achieved when the brain is able to disengage, the body allowed to move as naturally as possible, and both brain and body remain relaxed.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice States:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The answer is pretty simple... when I asked for the procedures you said no. So I have the material, but no procedure."
__________________________________________________ ______________
D'nice'
You trapped yourself in a blatant false statement ...twice:
The word 'NO', in the sense of refusing anything to anyone, does not exist in my vocabulary. I have told my family and friends to inscribe the following epitaph on my Tombstone, " Joe Lanza, the man who never said 'NO'!
The second serious faux pas which also belies your 'NO' statement has to do with the procedure you state I refused to give you:
D'nice, The procedure you claim I refused to give you, is clearly stated at the 'HEAD' of this very thread; the procedure is given in 6 clear steps which you obviously did not read or which you inadvertently forgot.
One more thing: You can throw all the mis-quotes and misinterpretations you want, but when you try to spread these mis-quotes you are dealing with a man who has a memory like a bear trap and I caught you time and time again in your irresponsible mi-quotes in my bear trap. I do not know why you are trying to discredit my commentaries, but your so called methods of asking provocative questions does not strike me a sincere attempt of a student to learn from a Master. I have spent enough time with your quibblings. Why don't you come up with some valid critique or questions, and stop mis-quoting a man who has a memory like a bear trap that will snare you every time, even when you try to falsely impose on me one simple little word like 'NO' ?
Black Sheep

[d nice]

D'nice States:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The answer is pretty simple... when I asked for the procedures you said no. So I have the material, but no procedure."
__________________________________________________ ______________
D'nice'
You trapped yourself in a blatant false statement ...twice:
The word 'NO', in the sense of refusing anything to anyone, does not exist in my vocabulary. I have told my family and friends to inscribe the following epitaph on my Tombstone, " Joe Lanza, the man who never said 'NO'!
The second serious faux pas which also belies your 'NO' statement has to do with the procedure you state I refused to give you:
D'nice, The procedure you claim I refused to give you, is clearly stated at the 'HEAD' of this very thread; the procedure is given in 6 clear steps which you obviously did not read or which you inadvertently forgot.
One more thing: You can throw all the mis-quotes and misinterpretations you want, but when you try to spread these mis-quotes you are dealing with a man who has a memory like a bear trap and I caught you time and time again in your irresponsible mi-quotes in my bear trap. I do not know why you are trying to discredit my commentaries, but your so called methods of asking provocative questions does not strike me a sincere attempt of a student to learn from a Master. I have spent enough time with your quibblings. Why don't you come up with some valid critique or questions, and stop mis-quoting a man who has a memory like a bear trap that will snare you every time, even when you try to falsely impose on me one simple little word like 'NO' ?
Black Sheep

Let us take a quick look Joe-
me
I'll tell you what Joe, I'll request your "pill" as long as I have your word that I can post my honest evaluation of it online... without you responding.

An honest and independant review, which stands alone. No rebuttal, no thanks for a good review. No response at all in the thread of the review.

As to lead follow technique... that is included in the ten minutes. Lead follow technique is incredibly easy to teach. The hours of instruction and/or years of social dancing after are needed primarily to gain mastery of the form.
you
Dormouse, you have a deal with my Magic Pill; with tthree stipulations:
1)You teach three wallflowers before you give your evaluation;
2) You use my Procedural Method which I will Email along with the Magic Pill. I am sure you realize the importance of Procedure in every activity; it plays the same important role as in foreplay!
3) The Procedural method is not to be shared with anyone else. No one else need to ask for this 'Procedural Method'. I will release it soon enough.
Dormouse, I have a very important reason for #3. I trust you will not violate my trust in you! And I will keep my mouth shut just as long as you fulfill these three stipulations.
Black Sheep
me
How about this... I give my immediate impression, and then I give my secondary impression after having tried it.

I can evaluate the material without teaching it. What is covered and its relevancy to "Savoy" styled Lindy Hop. As to evaluating the ability to get a newbie dancing within the fifteen minutes, I would of course need to attempt to use it to give a fair and honest evaluation.

Be forewarned though... I'm bruatlly honest. If it is good, I'll say it, if it is bad I'll say, giving as much detail to both as I can.

you
Dormouse, No deal! Even I had to teach several wallflowers before I got the Magic Pill teachuing method down pat. And I not only originated it, but I have a six year teaching credential from UCLA (year of 1962) plus many years teaching in school rooms and gymnasiums and ballrooms sometimes with over 2,000 students in the class at one time. How can I asssume you can evaluate a physical activities instructional effectiveness with no results in the equation? I think an Einstein coiuld evaluiate the Magic Pill metaphysically, but ... No Deal!
You will have to wait with the rest for the Magic Pill, Procedura Teaching Steps. But I certainly respect your integrity; you could have fooled me, but you didn't, and I respect you for that.
Black Sheep

So while you have included a section marked teaching procedure in this thread, It doesn't really give the detail necessary for someone to be able to duplicate you rexact method, what is push position to you? What angle are the dancers at in relation to each other? What kind of hand connection do they have? Is there compression or leveraged tension between them, or they in a neutral position? What angle are their arms at? Are they holding on with one hand or two? Where is their weight? Where in the foot? What kind of posture do they have?

Since everyone of these questions has a huge effect on how the first step is going to be taken, the teacher must have this knowledge otherwise he is filling in with his own info, which may be at complete odds with what they need to properly teach this material.

Perhaps you can now see that in fact you did originally refuse me the teaching procedures, and why I feel that what you have detailed in this thread covers only the most basic information, leaving out things which are very necessary in order for a teacher to achieve results in the advertised manner. In short you have supplied only part of the teaching procedure.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
You trapped yourself in several mis-quotes concerning my Commentaries, and therefore you have lost all and any credibility.
As for your offer to evaluate my Magic Pill', you really are cute, but seriously deficient and unqualified!.
And let this be advice for anyone else who is given this ridiculous offer of an 'evaluation without a response':
" Not to respond to a criticism or an allegations, is to assume quilt!"
Any future posts D'nice makes concerning my commentaries will go unanswered, not because of assumed quilt, but only because I cannot waste any more of my and the readers' precious time on his childish false misquotes and distortions.
But I do welcome any Questions or critiques from other subscribers on my Magic Pill which is posted as the leading Commentary on this thread.
Black Sheep <d.lanza@netzero.net> Send a 'Yes' for your Savoy Lindy Techniques.

[DanceMentor]

Probably best not to go back and forth TOO much, especially if agreement is not being reached.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
Doremouse was a regular subscriber who posted on yehoodi who gave me the same offer to evaluate the Magic Pill just by reading it without testing it on a student and with my promise that I would not respond to her evaluation in any way, the exact devious offer I was given by you D'nice. My response to both offers was, 'NO', basically for the same following reason:
"Any offer to evaluate any program with the promise that I could not respond, is giving the critic carte cblanc to render any distortion to the program that they please without the author having the opportunity to make any corrections of those distortions." That's the kind of offer that the Godfather would advise, 'You must refuse'!
Black Sheep
Magic Pill Savoy Dance Techniques are now available. Just Email me the word, 'ABSOLUTELY' <D.LANZA@NETZERO.NET

[d nice]

Joe in case you failed to read the PM I sent you about a week ago I am dormouse on yehoodi. Everything I posted in this thread was quoted directly from that forum. No embellishment on part. Yehoodi: How can we organize a Lindy Fereration? (http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=61505&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) It starts as the eighth post down. Perhaps you may wish to edit your post above, no apology needed. Of course Yehoodi also has the wonderful feature of noting how mant times someone edits one of their posts and when it was last done.

Why would I lie? My place in todays world wide lindy hop community will not be affected positively or negatively by any interaction I have with you. I post on this forum to pass my spare time (which I admittedly have far too much of), to share information about a genre of dancing I know and love with those who have the same passion, or gve whatever I can to those who may have limited or no exposure to the swing dances. I have no personal stake in this, no pride wrapped up in it. I push no pills or agendas, and to be honest I really don't understand the need you have to do so, but I don't judge you because of it. My way is to enter into exchanges with questions and share as much information as I can with anyone and everyone who asks questions, as often as needed, as mundane or simplistic or oft repeated as they maybe, because questions aren't threatening, they are merely the growing pains of an eager mind. YMMV (Your Milage May Very), but this approach works for me.

[d nice]

D'nice,
You trapped yourself in several mis-quotes concerning my Commentaries, and therefore you have lost all and any credibility.
As for your offer to evaluate my Magic Pill', you really are cute, but seriously deficient and unqualified!.
And let this be advice for anyone else who is given this ridiculous offer of an 'evaluation without a response':
" Not to respond to a criticism or an allegations, is to assume quilt!"
Any future posts D'nice makes concerning my commentaries will go unanswered, not because of assumed quilt, but only because I cannot waste any more of my and the readers' precious time on his childish false misquotes and distortions.
But I do welcome any Questions or critiques from other subscribers on my Magic Pill which is posted as the leading Commentary on this thread.
Black Sheep <d.lanza@netzero.net> Send a 'Yes' for your Savoy Lindy Techniques.

To Swinging Buffs,
I write with all the integrity and politeness I can muster, and I have never criticized any individual verbally or in my writings, and if I criticize whatever or 'Blow the Whistle' on some farce or hoax being played on dance students, let it be called "CRITICIZING" and let's not do the Black Sheep the injustice of DEFINING my writing as 'negative' as one fragile Orange Coast Moderator is attempting to do by spreading this virulent message among his communicants.
Quoted from:Positive or Negative? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=743&highlight=#743)

Ah, criticizing... the difference is obvious. At least he said I am cute. I personally prefer ruggedly handsome, but cute works just fine. They say after all you always hurt the one you love.

[d nice]

Black Sheep wrote in Swing vs Salza (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=198&highlight=)
Differences of opinion are a healthy sign of cultural vitality. If I disagree with a person, I am not attacking or demeaning their character; I'm just disagreeing, period.

Me either.

[Vince A]

DM,
Probably best not to go back and forth TOO much, especially if agreement is not being reached.


Let them go . . . I've been watching this one with keen interest, and being an avid WCS dancer ( to slow music as a personal favorite), some key points are beginning to emerge.

I can reiterate smething that has been said . . . I have had a very similar methods of instruction early in my ECS, and they were abandoned as the footwork and patterns evolved!

d nice is holding her own . . . and if there is one thing I have learned is to stop "thinking," or as she says 'disconnect the brain.' Learn to "not think,' let the muscle memory kick in, and dance from within . . . you'll dance better and feel better doing it!

[SDsalsaguy]

DM,
Probably best not to go back and forth TOO much, especially if agreement is not being reached.


Let them go . . . I've been watching this one with keen interest, and being an avid WCS dancer ( to slow music as a personal favorite), some key points are beginning to emerge.

I can reiterate smething that has been said . . . I have had a very similar methods of instruction early in my ECS, and they were abandoned as the footwork and patterns evolved!

d nice is holding her own . . . and if there is one thing I have learned is to stop "thinking," or as she says 'disconnect the brain.' Learn to "not think,' let the muscle memory kick in, and dance from within . . . you'll dance better and feel better doing it!

OK, if these debates are of interest that's fine...BUT: condescending and disparaging remarks will NOT be tolerated.

Sure d nice can hold his own, but we also want other people to feel free to join and participate in the forums as well, regardless of their background or proficiency.

By all means continue substantive debates—and even outright "wars"—to your hearts content, but I repeat, continued personally disparaging comments will NOT be tolerated.

[Black Sheep]

Lindy Dancers,
I spent all weekend at the annual Camp Hollywood event, and the music
every night was about 80 % at 150 bpm for all three bands, Mora's
Rhythmmists, Bill Elliot's Swing Orchestra and The Swing Session from San
Francisco with all three dance floors in the same Ballroom full of dancers
from all over the country.
It was a night of enjoyment that will live long in all our memories. I
know the Impresario of the event does not like to be lauded, but I was
amazed at how one single lady could get such an extravaganza with all its
multiple events working so efficiently. I often observed her running from
one control center to another, seeing that everybody was on Q.
In my 'Camp Hollywood' theme song I have a lyric, " You can dance all
day and through the night with Hilary there to set things right, She runs
the show from early morn til late, late, late, late, late moonlight!" And
that's the truth!
Incidentally, anyone who wants a copy of this theme song, just Email
me the Word 'Song'
Black Sheep <d.lanza@netzero.net>

[d nice]

Hillary is afriend of mine and has done a super job of putting Camp Hollywood on year after year. She will be the first person to applaud the efforts of those people who have helped over the years. Lets not forget about all those wonderful volunteers who without them CH/NJC could not have been started nor continued.

BTW Swing Session's average tempo is actually closer to 175 bpm, I know my boys well.

[Vince A]

One of the reasons WCS dancers like music at 200 bpm is so their WCS dance looks more exciting when it is rushed. WCS dancers in general deplore dancing below 150 bpm; it looks and feels too much like walking.

Ah, the need to jump in here . . .

I just finished a compilation of songs for WCS practicing . . . note the bpm of them, and yes, I will list them all. This IS where WCS is going . . .

BPM-Song Title
82 -Let's Rendezvous
88 -Peel Me A Grape . . . . . thanks funkyfreak!
102-Sweet 16
106-16 Tons
108-St. Louis Blues
108-Allright, OK, You Win
112-Think About Me
112-Got Get It Worked On
112-A Natural Man
114-The Lady With The Big Cigar
114-Wade In The Water
116-Nine Buckets of Jive
118-Bad Mood
120-Fly Me Tp The Moon
124-Stand Up And Be Strong
126-Triple Shot of Rhythm And Blues
130-How Can A Fool Go Wrong
(Some of you may not like some of these songs.)

So, where are the 200 bpm songs??? Yes, I have those too! They are for those 18 year-olds. But slow sexy WCS songs "that swing" are great fun songs to dance and play to, especially if your count is &1 &2, &3, &4, &5, &6 (&7, &8 - for 8 ct moves) - thanks to Skippy Blair! It gives you so much more to do!

[d nice]

West Coast is slowing down more true, but the overall tempos you have have been what have been played at conventions for a few years now.

Joe's stated differentiation between WCS and Lindy Hop seems to be only whether the follower rocks back or steps forward on one. Which is not in and of itself an accurate way of judging one dance from another.

[Black Sheep]

Vince A,
Thanks for contributing to the Question of where Swing Tempos are going. In my previous commentary it was some of the DJ's that were playing too many Balboa tempos at 175 +, but the band leaders at Camp Hollywood 2003 began to see that it was circa the 120 bpm that filled the floor.
However, Vince as much as I like your numbers, the musical numbers you use in your list are with the exception of maybe one or two, were not played at Camp Hollywood 2003, which by the three most popular WCS bands have to be considered the NORM for WCS tempos. I was there all three nights. Very few numbers published past the 1960's was played.
When you list a few musical numbers you have to keep in perspective that there are literally thousands of songs published from the 1930 to the 1960's and when you list 20 or 30 of your favorite post 1960's tunes to make a point you are rowing up stream with a broken paddle, reminding me of one of my favorite sayings, "Do not judge the many by the few!"
Black Sheep

[Vince A]

West Coast is slowing down more true, but the overall tempos you have have been what have been played at conventions for a few years now.

"I didn't say they weren't" They are no more than a compilation of slower songs that I had just copied. I realize that they have been around for a while.
the musical numbers you use in your list are with the exception of maybe one or two, were not played at Camp Hollywood 2003, which by the three most popular WCS bands have to be considered the NORM for WCS tempos. I was there all three nights. Very few numbers published past the 1960's was played.

"I didn't say they were." I was merely pointing out that I rarely hear WCS music at 200 bpm . . . and in defense, was listing some recent recordings for "my practice" that were no where near the 200 bpm, and some were slower by more than 50%.

[d nice]

For those reading this thread... when Vince says West Coast Swing, he means pretty much what every other person in the Swing world means by it... when Joe says it it is most likely what everyone else refers to as Lindy Hop, when he says Lindy Hop he usually means what everyone else means when they say East Coast Swing.

Camp Hollywood and the attached National Jitterbug
Championship is a Lindy Hop, Balboa/Bal-Swing, Colligate Shag, dance camp and competion. The teachers are all Lindy Hoppers, who also do the other above dances, with only one or two exceptions the instructors do not do West Coast Swing.

The bands are all Swing Bands, playing various flavors of Swing music. The amount of West Coast Dancers that show up to their shows is few and far between, roughly 1:20 in relation to lindy hoppers (and this is being generous).

Joe has no desire to change his terminology to reflect the dance world. That is his perogative, but it causes all sorts of misunderstandings if someone doesn't "translate".

[Vince A]

I knew that Joe and I were speaking of two different dances, albeit, inferences to 200 bpm WCS music just is not correct. Even some of the fast stuff by say, James Brown, doesn't even get that high.

I've been to some Jitterbug events, in fact my Mom probably competed against Joe back in the 40s. She was from Brooklyn, competed and won often. I get my dance heart and feet from her. My point? At several Jitterbug events that I have taken her to just a few years ago, I asked nearly every woman there if she could WCS. I received all "No's." I was content to just Jitterbug the rest of the night.

I've been competing since 1994, and the amount of Lindy Hoppers that I've seen at any event . . I could count on my left hand!

It's dancing, but clearly two different worlds!

[diff e.q.]

Joe,
First I need to qualify... I studied music in college, and while I don't currently make music on a regular basis I still know my theory.

I have a question about this from your magic pill:


RHYTHMIC COUNT: "ONE &TWO, THREE &FOUR, FIVE - SIX"
(The "& 2, & 4 counts take an eighth note each (4 eighths = two Quarter notes);
(the 1, 3, 5, 6 counts take one Quarter beat each: total = four Quarter notes)
"Slow, Quick, Quick Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow, Slow
ONE & TWO THREE & FOUR FIVE SIX


I've been dancing lindy hop for more than a couple years now and I cut my teeth on 6 count patterns. Your numbers 1+2 3+4 5 6 match up with what I first learned but the rhythm you assign doesn't.

If what you assert about eight and quarter notes is what you meant to say your rhythm is actually: one, two& three, four& five, six. That is a far cry from everyone I've ever seen teach and every video, including Frankie Manning's I've ever seen.

So if this is what you meant to write why? I'm curious since it doesn't match any other teaching I've ever scene. Does it seem to work better for you? Why does it work better?

If it isn't please fix it. Otherwise there are going to be some very confused beginners out there who learn using your method and then try and dance socially. It's not very fair to them and they'll probably quit rather than try and fix it.

[Black Sheep]

Guys,
All the Quoting your doing is mostly out of context or with a few unintentional mis-quotes; it's a way of distorting the real sense of a commentary. And Vince I only competed in three Contests in my life, The first was where I won the Valentino Tango Trophy in 1951 at the Hollywood Palladium and two contests in Lindy in 1957; one at the Club Madelon where I came in third, and the following Thursday at the Hollywood Tailspin where I came in First and Second with two different ladies I had never before danced with and only had a couple of hours rehearsal with. And after the contest I was threatened by a group of the contest losers with bodily harm if I ever tried to enter another Swing contest; I was that bad! Incidently all but two of those contestants are still alive and dancing.
And D'nice, Again you are mis-quoting me,. I never said, " the differences between WCS and ECS was 'rocking back or rocking forward'. What I said was 'You can IDENTIFY a Savoy Lindy dancer by the Lady always Rocking back'. Once again D'nice I snared you in my bear trap! The 'Lady's Back Rock' is only one Savoy identification technique. For future additional Savoy Techniques, watch dance-forums; I will be posting the original classic Savoy techniques after September 1st.
For an earlier preview of these 'Savoy Techniques', just Email me the word, 'ABSOLUTELY'. <d.lanza@netzero.net>
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[Black Sheep]

Diff e. g.,
Some of my best friends count the Lindy differently than I do, in my 'Magic Pill' program. So your way of counting is juist as valid as their's is.
I did not create the 'Magic Pill' for Swing pundits like yourself; my Magic Pill is for the 'New Wave' of dancers who inside of one year will be winning most of the Swing Contests on this earth.
Black Sheep

And D'nice, Again you are mis-quoting me,. I never said, " the differences between WCS and ECS was 'rocking back or rocking forward'. What I said was 'You can IDENTIFY a Savoy Lindy dancer by the Lady always Rocking back'. Once again D'nice I snared you in my bear trap!

Hey Joe, or anyone else who knows, what page are you getting this response from? I'm having a little difficulty spotting the conversation line as I can't see this part of the discussion in this thread, but I'm probably just overlooking the obvious.

Thanks in advance.
-FF

[Black Sheep]

To the Unbelievers,
The difference between an arduously detailed theoretical dissertation on 'following' and my plain and laconic instructions is, 'I have successfully used my teaching method of following since 1949, and I have often tested my techniques of following by blind folding the ladies and leading them through dozens of Ballroom including Swing moves.
With one exception; 'The ladies have to be fairly proficient disciplined Swing dancers; inexperienced undisciplined dancers are always difficult to lead.
Anybody out there want to physically challenge me on this claim that my Sixth Method of Following is infallible?
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer

[d nice]

Guys,
All the Quoting your doing is mostly out of context or with a few unintentional mis-quotes; it's a way of distorting the real sense of a commentary.

Joe, the quotes from you while possibly out of context (though very nearly every quote I have made to date has included more than a single sentencer, unless you have set it up as a list) they aren't misquotes. That is the beauty of a forum like this. We have at our acdcess the quote function button, which copies your own words down for us so we do not mistakenly create abberations in your text. We also have at our disposal th escroll bar which enables everyone reading to scroll back up to the original post you have made. Lastly we have the edit notificaton, which shows when and how many times a post has been edited by its author, preventing posters from saying one thing, being called on, and then going back and editing the refuted comment in an attempt to remove evidence.

Can you point out where someone has quoted you incorrectly? If so PM me and I'll ask them to please rectify the situation.

[d nice]

Diff e. g.,
Some of my best friends count the Lindy differently than I do, in my 'Magic Pill' program. So your way of counting is juist as valid as their's is.
I did not create the 'Magic Pill' for Swing pundits like yourself; my Magic Pill is for the 'New Wave' of dancers who inside of one year will be winning most of the Swing Contests on this earth.
Black Sheep

Two problems...One, the way you have it know has, as Diff e.g., the emphasis now not on the Upbeat but on the & after the Upbeat. This is a clear violation of your own guidelines in the Magic Pill.

Two, If the rules are not internally consistant it will only confuse students not make it easier for them to dance, and if they stick through it, they will find that they will have to completely change the way they currently dance to progress further. Their rhythm will be off with both the music and the rhythm others dance in.

[d nice]

And D'nice, Again you are mis-quoting me,. I never said, " the differences between WCS and ECS was 'rocking back or rocking forward'. What I said was 'You can IDENTIFY a Savoy Lindy dancer by the Lady always Rocking back'. Once again D'nice I snared you in my bear trap! The 'Lady's Back Rock' is only one Savoy identification technique. For future additional Savoy Techniques, watch dance-forums; I will be posting the original classic Savoy techniques after September 1st.

Joe... now you are misquoting me... what I did, since there was no use of the quote function or quotation marks, was at worst a mischaracterization of your statements... Lets scroll up and see what I actually wrote:Joe's stated differentiation between WCS and Lindy Hop seems to be only whether the follower rocks back or steps forward on one. So what we have is me saying that the only thing you have said on this forum about telling the difference between the two dances is that step. Have you infact given other indicators or elements which seperate the two? Please provide a link for us to this statement of yours. If not, then I did not misquote (especially since their was no quotation) or mischaracterize your statement.

[Black Sheep]

Members of the jury,
If you have tried the Magic Pill, 15 minute Lindy teaching technique, I beseech you to put an end to the attempt to discredtit the effectiveness of my Magisc Pill. All I need is one person who has successfully used my teaching method to say. "Yes, it works" so we can close this thread with dignity.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer.

[DanceMentor]

Joe,

Yes, your magic pill has it's benefits and is a good method for getting people started with ECS. I'd like to place added emphasis on the way you say how important it is to repeat the rhythm over and over, as well as the practice the rock step over and over being sure they are making 2 weight changes. There are SO MANY men with a dead right foot on the rock step.

While some have been knocking you, I think those same people should try to find some of the good points of the teaching method you present. As a matter of fact, I challenge them to do this. Let's focus on the 6-count basic. If there are any improvements that can be made to your method, let's discuss them.

Once again, I want to remind people this is supposed to be an easy going place. My new avatar is a picture of me on my wedding day. Please don't ruin my wedding day. :lol:

[d nice]

It is a very simple form which follows an obvious pattern. Constant emphaisis on the rhythm is key to getting new dancers to get into their bones. Constant repetition will create muscle memory which will help the dancers execute the steps.

I think it is a fair method of teaching East Coast Swing.

I do have numerous issues with it, and those tend to be my focus, not because I'm a negative person, but because I can see ways that it could be improved upon.

[SDsalsaguy]

I do have numerous issues with it, and those tend to be my focus, not because I'm a negative person, but because I can see ways that it could be improved upon.
Now that would be an incredible use of these forums -- everyone contributing to a dance-forums methodology!

[d nice]

A collaborative effort by a group of dedicated dancers. Nah that'd never work. More entertaining to argue and give each other virtual swirlies.

Seriousely now, I think that would be an excellent idea. Look for a new thread where we can discuss teaching techniques and material that should be covered.

[Vince A]

A collaborative effort by a group of dedicated dancers. Nah that'd never work. More entertaining to argue and give each other virtual swirlies.

"My kinda response!"

Nice to read some of us "can" lighten up . . .

Looking forward to the new thread.

[Black Sheep]

Magic Pill Addicts,
There are a few Savoy Techniques that will enhance the Magic Pill's effectiveness. However, teach these techniques only after you have your student performing the 6 Teaching Procedural steps under the Magic Pill format confidently. Please keep in mind, this teaching/learning method is copyrighted and is suggested to be used only as a unit without adulterating the context by changing any elements of the format that would corrupt and diminish the effectiveness of this 50+ years teaching experience which has been personally tested sucessfully countless times:
1) Lady keeps her hand in hooked position at all times so man's hands do not slip away on fast grabs, and even when turning the hooked hands work like universal joints;
2) On entering into a closed dance position from an open position, Lady's right foot ends up between man's two feet at the end of the ' 1 &2 ';
3) In any turning move, partners should lean back on the centrifugal force rather then leaning toward each other;
4) On the '3 &4', the Lady's in-place steps should not be wide steps moving side to side in an exaggerated motion;
5) the body weight should be over the balls of feet with knees slightly bent, and tuck your butt in, do not assume an exaggerated sitting position; besides the aesthetics it is the wrong posture for good balance especially when you begin learning pirouettes;
6) When returning to a closed position, Lady should head straight for man's right shoulder causing him to turn slightly to his right, instead of Lady returning directly in front of man in a sort of face to face blocking position that prevents him from leading you into any Whip variations.

NOTE: These techniques are effective for all Swing dancers, but they are techniques that are often lost from the original Savoy Lindy Hop.

Black Sheep, yuour friendly instructer.

[diff e.q.]

Please keep in mind, this teaching/learning method is copyrighted

I do not believe you can copyright a "methodology" (which is what the magic pill essentially is). I think you can patent methodology because technically methodology is a technology but you can only copyright copy (that is presented information, and even then information is copyrighted, just the copy). So while the copy for your magic pill can be copyrighted, the metods themselves can't be.


1) Lady keeps her hand in hooked position at all times so man's hands do not slip away on fast grabs, and even when turning the hooked hands work like universal joints;

good call


2) On entering into a closed dance position from an open position, Lady's right foot ends up between man's two feet at the end of the ' 1 &2 ';

In general right feet are between partners feet when in closed.


3) In any turning move, partners should lean back on the centrifugal force rather then leaning toward each other;

bad physics here. This is the beginnings of jerk and twirl. I don't know about you, but I've never seen the word "lean" inspire a beginner to do anything but bend at the waist and throw his/her shoulders around.

If you're trying to teach beginners how to control movement why are you telling them to increase the rotational force (which is exactly what telling them to lean will do)? That just makes control harder. Better to tell them to stand up straight and bend their knees and maybe increase the space between them, but never never never "lean back" ugh it just sounds ugly.


4) On the '3 &4', the Lady's in-place steps should not be wide steps moving side to side in an exaggerated motion;

ah... a return to truth, the gospel of small steps. It makes me smile.


5) the body weight should be over the balls of feet with knees slightly bent, and tuck your butt in, do not assume an exaggerated sitting position; besides the aesthetics it is the wrong posture for good balance especially when you begin learning pirouettes;

stick with this and get rid of #3. question... but question, what do pirouettes have to do with learning to swing dance?


6) When returning to a closed position, Lady should head straight for man's right shoulder causing him to turn slightly to his right, instead of Lady returning directly in front of man in a sort of face to face blocking position that prevents him from leading you into any Whip variations.

Shouldn't the lady just walk straight? I do believe the leaders job is to lead her where he wants to go. What if I want her directly in front of me for any number of reasons, I don't want her aiming for my right shoulder as a rule. Besides, this leads to running around your lead, hardly a good habit to teach a whip from.

I think you make some good points. Points that are not, however, unique to your magic pill. I think your magic pill is a good rough draft of potentially effective teaching. But I've seen much more effective teaching than what you've outlined. The magic pill is hardly an end all of 6 count lindy instruction as you purport, but it is an effective starting point.

Just some honest thoughts.

[Black Sheep]

Magic Pill Addicts,
When teaching a student, I always have one rule, "I will give you my
best efforts in teaching you, but be warned, as soon as you begin to show
promise, everyone will try to get on your bandwagon and begin confusing you by giving you advice so that they can take credit for your progress and accomplishments. It is a way of aggrandizing themselves by arbitrarily making trivial criticisms of the original creation.
The Magic Pill and its techniques work 100 % of the time if you follow
the instructions precisely. And I am reminded of the movie tycoon, Samuel Goldwyn's consoling words when Robert Taylor cried on his shoulder because of the negative reports by critics of his last performance: Sam told Robert, and I have to paraphrase here, 'critics are paid peanuts for criticizing stars like you.' And I would add my own saying, "There are the creative originators and then there are those who can't create, so they criticize." Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer.

[Black Sheep]

Nuevo Maestros,
Today I will Share Six Savoy Techniques That are almost a lost art. Fortunately, when I decided to leave the dance business in 1963 to teach at Lafayette High School in Brooklyn, I decided to write my dance knowledge down in two manuscripts which I still have in tact. Some of the Savoy techniques I have published in my 1999 book, 'Lindy by Lanza', so you don't have to buy the book, since I am copying the techniques directly from page 80 to 86. The six techniques listed are only a part of the total techniques from my book, but I know these six are crucial in making you a smoother well coordinated dancer within a very short time of practice.
Savoy Techniques:
1) Resistance:There should be a constant push and pull resistance between the partners' hands so that every lead given by the man is transferred to the Lady like a puppet on a string. To sustain resistance, Lady keeps firm but relaxed arms with a slight bend at the elbows; it is very much like holding the reins of a spirited horse at a gentle trot, not too tight by steady without arms going limp when Man pulls or pushes. It takes a little practice to get that right feeling of resistance, but the effort is worth the results of dancing in complete unison with the man.
2) Directional Control: The Man is the pivotal point around which the Lady dances. The Lady is the Showpiece while the man is the Puppeteer who pulls the strings gently but firmly to allow her to dance in intricate and graceful configuration under his precise control;
3) Dancing in a Rectangle: Although there are many moves that move in circles, it is good training to learn how to dance inside a prescribed Rectangle called a 'Slot' the dimensions are about two feet wide and six feet long. The lady travels in straight lines within the Slot when in open position. The direction of the slot can change when the Man pulls the Lady into closed position always rotating to his right or even while in open position with a little wrist action. The Lady keeps in alignment by passing close to the Man on each pull through when traveling to opposite side of slot. This technique is especially useful on crowded dance floors.
4) Body Leads: In the Savoy Style Lindy, the Man always Rocks on the '5-6' in the direction of his lead, and by dipping his leading shoulder slightly in that direction as the Lady gets an unmistakable lead that she can't refuse.
5) When dancers use a 'Kick Ball Change' or any other substitute for the Rock Step, place an '&' count between the '5-6' and count it '5 &6', giving it the same rhythmic count as the '1 &2' or 'Slow, Quick, Quick, one Quarter and two eighth steps.
6) Syncopation: Accenting the up-beat with a slight lilt of the upper body and a slight spring in the ankles will enhance the feeling of rhythmic dancing significantly. Without this Syncopation, the Lindy doesn't have that Swing, and like the Duke once said in 1932, "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing".
NOTE: Just because a teacher uses one of these techniques in his lesson, it doesn't mean he is teaching the Joe Lanza Magic Pill!

Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

Magic Pill Addicts,
When teaching a student, I always have one rule, "I will give you my
best efforts in teaching you, but be warned, as soon as you begin to show
promise, everyone will try to get on your bandwagon and begin confusing you by giving you advice so that they can take credit for your progress and accomplishments. It is a way of aggrandizing themselves by arbitrarily making trivial criticisms of the original creation."

What I've found is that caring individuals will often see someone teaching people incorrectly on the side of the floor and will offer their comments in an effort to head off any damaging "instruction" or simple oversight on the part of the self appointed teacher that may lead to bad habits being formed. Now of course I am not saying that this is the case with you, simply showing another side to why people will often give constructive criticism to people who are just learning to dance. At our local clubs we have tons of people who have had a few lessons who then try abnd show their friends how to do it. Not to disimilar from that one guy you described showing the flashy moves to his friends at Lindy Groove. "It takes a community to train a lindy hopper, only one bad apple to ruin the bunch." Damon Stone 2003 a.d.

The Magic Pill and its techniques work 100 % of the time if you follow the instructions precisely.

I already pointed out how the Pill invites teachers to make alterations or additions. Trying to teach someone how to teach through the written word is extremely difficult. YOu might want to think about setting up some sort of intensive like Skippy uses to pass on her methodology. It is easier to ensure that proper transmission of ideals happens face to face.

And I would add my own saying, "There are the creative originators and then there are those who can't create, so they criticize." Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer.

Absolutely! You are completely correct sir. However there are those who can create, are originators, are fully capable of evaluating something, critiquing it without bias. I'd suggest you pick three people in L.A. give them the pill to read, and observe each trying to teach the material using that methodology as written down. Observe how many mistakes are made by the teachers and the students... mistakes that could be weened out of the methodology if you could step back and take an honest look at it.

[Black Sheep]

Magic Pill Addicts,
Just follow my instructions in sequence. I am supplying you with progressive steps in the Magic Pill method to become fully qualified Savoy Lindy Hop Instructors with the authentic Savoy Techniques that the Master Lindy Hop dancers developed in the 1920's and 1930's, and who have never been equaled in performing this Original American Cultural Heritage.
The Magic Pill , Part I, II, and III are already on the board. I will continue supplying you with more advanced lessons in the near future. My purpose is not to throw too much information at you all at once; it might be confusing. Just read and absorb each Magic Pill Commentary as it is Posted under my Avatar, and by this fall you will be a bona fide Savoy Lindy Hop Instructor.
I was perceptive enough in 1963 when I left my 12 year professional Ballroom Dance Career to document all my teaching material in two manuscripts from which I copy and write my Commentaries with.
The proof is in the pudding, and I know from my experience in using this Magic Pill, Teaching Method for the past several months, teaching students two and three times a week, that you are successful in the application of this 'Simplified Swing' teaching method. I caution you to avoid the confusing criticisms by those who have never taken the 15 minutes to test this unique 'Lanza Six Count Lindy, teaching method.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

Magic Pill Addicts,
Just follow my instructions in sequence. I am supplying you with progressive steps in the Magic Pill method to become fully qualified Savoy Lindy Hop Instructors with the authentic Savoy Techniques that the Master Lindy Hop dancers developed in the 1920's and 1930's, and who have never been equaled in performing this Original American Cultural Heritage.

How many of the original Savoy Ballroom dancers have you met? How many have you studied under? How many of WLH have you met, studied under or worked with? I'm still curious why you insist that the six count East Coast Swing you teach in your pill bears no resembalance to what any of the film clips, be it from movies or newsreels show. I'm also curious why it bears no resembalance to what the surviving members of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers teach or dance socially.

The proof is in the pudding, and I know from my experience in using this Magic Pill, Teaching Method for the past several months, teaching students two and three times a week, that you are successful in the application of this 'Simplified Swing' teaching method.

Months? Several months. This is what prompted to start this up again. There have been people with years of teaching experience who have studied direcly under Frankie Manning who have disagreed with the material you present under the guise of "Authentic Savoy Style Lindy Hop". I'd highly recommend sticking with the name "Lanza Six Count Lindy", that way there is no confusion between your Southern CA 50's style Lindy and the Savoy Lindy Hop as danced and taught by Savoy Dancers from the 30's.

I caution you to avoid the confusing criticisms by those who have never taken the 15 minutes to test this unique 'Lanza Six Count Lindy, teaching method.

The criticisms aren't confusing Joe. They are straightforward, generally easily understood, and the posters have provided names of original Savoy dancers, documentries and movies where Savoy Lindy Hop of the 30's and 40's can be viewed and intelligent contrast and comparison has been made between what is seen in that footage and what is taught by those surviving dancers, to what you are claiming as being "authentic".

For the record I tried three times last night to teach using your method... and produced four people who were capable of doing basic East Coast in 15 minutes... but the results were not superior in any way to the various other methods I have seen and used... and if truth be known I think it required to much thinking on the part of the dancers. The method teaches dancing from the head instead of from the body.

If inexperienced teachers are looking for a way to quickly introduce someone to East Coast Swing, I'd certainly point them at your posted method, along with several other online lesson plans, it works as do the others. Perhaps the rest of the info you are planning on posting might change my mind... but as is the Pill has holes and what I consider undesirable side effects so I couldn't suggest it over any of the other methods I've seen of teaching East Coast Swing. It does work though. Then again that was never really disputed by anyone... just the relvancy and claims associated with it.