International style VS American ballroom

[JIMMY]

Up until the early 60's most ballroom dancing schools in the United States were teaching American ballroom style in bronze and silver categories International style was only taught when you started teaching the gold standard .
when the 60's arrived ballroom dancing was almost nonexistent because the culture changed into none- partner dancing ( twist/the jerk/swim / ext ext .
Studio owners lost a lot of dance teachers who taught American ballroom dancing, so they were forced to hire dance teachers from Europe mostly from England in order to fill in the positions in their dance studios. thus American ballroom style slowly disappeared and the international standard has taken over. you don't see any American ballroom style dancing any more. there is a major difference between the two styles. if you have any thoughts and regards to this subject I would be interested to read thank you all

[Spitfire]

Up until the early 60's most ballroom dancing schools in the United States were teaching American ballroom style in bronze and silver categories International style was only taught when you started teaching the gold standard .
when the 60's arrived ballroom dancing was almost nonexistent because the culture changed into none- partner dancing ( twist/the jerk/swim / ext ext .
Studio owners lost a lot of dance teachers who taught American ballroom dancing, so they were forced to hire dance teachers from Europe mostly from England in order to fill in the positions in their dance studios. thus American ballroom style slowly disappeared and the international standard has taken over. you don't see any American ballroom style dancing any more. there is a major difference between the two styles. if you have any thoughts and regards to this subject I would be interested to read thank you all

Welcome to the forums Jimmy,

Are you sure about this? My understanding is that most of what is taught in the studios is American style; at least it is in my area. :?

[Laura]

I first started taking lessons at a Fred Astaire studio, and my English-born-and-trained teacher taught me American Style first, as that was the studio's policy. This was in New York in the 90's. The studio where I take lessons now (in San Francisco) teaches American style dances in their social dance programs. So, in my experience at least, people are taught American style first and then learn the English style if they wish to go on to competitions or if they're just curious and want to try it.

[Chris Stratton]

I can't comment on the suggested history, but I do not by any means think it accurate to say that american style is gone. In fact, about the only studios where you would not find it are those few that are effectively training academies for international style competition, rather than the being built around the traditional studio base business of social dance.

In terms of the existence of American Style today, I think you have to seperate it into two issues before you can meaningfully examine the topic: American Style Material, and American Style Approach.

As others have already pointed out, American Style Material is alive and well. There are many people teaching it a a variety of levels from introductory/social through very ambitious competition preparation. While international style is more popular in post-beginner amateur competition, there is still a fair amount of American style danced - it might even be dominant in beginner to intermediate pro-am competition.

The second issue, and the one that may really be dying out, is the idea of an American Style Approach to dancing. If you watch a contemporary smooth couple demonstrate basic material, while the figures haven't changed, you may decide their dancing looks nothing like what your parents did. The thing though is that the old, popular concept of how to dance this material was not grounded in any real understanding of motion technique or partnership dynamics. Today's smooth is a much more precise, technically developed dance than the way it was populary danced, and even taught, some time ago. It is true that a lot of the technical improvement has come from exposure to international style teachers, but you have to admit than an English couple's bodies are really not built all that differently from an American couple's. Whenever the two styles have overlapping goals, it's completely logical that enough experimentation is likely to lead to both discovering the same way of achieveing them - and of course they get there faster if they keep an eye on what the other is up to. It's true that today's smooth is no longer technically distinct from international standard in its underlying methods - but what has died is not a uniquely American concept of dance, but rather a situation in which teachers were often nearly as ignorant as their students. Today technically precise training is available to anyone who seeks it out, and we're seeing the results of an improved average level of skill in both the American and International style competitions.

The situation does appear to be a bit different for Rhythm though. There actually is - or at least was - a unique motion technique for these dances. While the underlying ideas there were moderately sound, they are suffering some in a shadow between international latin technique on one side, and street salsa technique on the other. While Salsa has redefined what it means to just dance for fun, latin has set contemporary expectations for what dancing should look like, and also the degree of intensity that should be available in training. Someone seeking to teach real American Rhythm today would need to find students interested in actually learning dance technique, find inspiring role models within the style to point to, and present the unique rhythm technique with as much methodical detail as a boot-camp latin coach . And still, they'd have to worry about their best couples getting caught up in the greater popularity of latin at intermediate to advanced levels.

[JIMMY]

Up until the early 60's most ballroom dancing schools in the United States were teaching American ballroom style in bronze and silver categories International style was only taught when you started teaching the gold standard .
when the 60's arrived ballroom dancing was almost nonexistent because the culture changed into none- partner dancing ( twist/the jerk/swim / ext ext .
Studio owners lost a lot of dance teachers who taught American ballroom dancing, so they were forced to hire dance teachers from Europe mostly from England in order to fill in the positions in their dance studios. thus American ballroom style slowly disappeared and the international standard has taken over. you don't see any American ballroom style dancing any more. there is a major difference between the two styles. if you have any thoughts and regards to this subject I would be interested to read thank you all

Before the 60's there were many ballrooms in the United States hundred of thousands of people would go dancing every night instead of sitting home watching television or sitting in front of their computer . today the places to go ballroom dancing are few and in between in comparison and if you do go ,the dance floor is dominated by international type dancing you hardly see any American ballroom dancing on the dance floor. as for my post above there is a major difference between the 2 in footwork and style( especially style!!) thank-you for replying your comments of very interesting looking forward to reading some more.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm going to have to strongly disagree. While the popularity of ballroom dancing has gone down, the social dancing that is left is by no means dominated by international style. Rather, what you have seen is a trend towards technically sound dancing pushing some popular, but outrageously flawed traditional social habits to the margins. There is essentially zero difference in the footwork rules of contemporary international standard and american smooth for corresponding actions. Yes, some people prefer to use only toe leads, or fail to roll through their feet - but that's not American style dancing, but rather BAD DANCING (unless suggested by a totally distinct non-ballroom hold and poise, such as that of argentine tango)

(Occasionally I'll guess wrong at a social and lead a continuity american style waltz, only to have the lady appologize that she doesn't know "international" Since it's unfamilair she's assumed it's foreign, when in fact it's the most uniquely American ballroom approach to this music. I'll then switch to what I think of as basic international waltz, and she will be quite happy - because if I pick my figures with care it's exaclty the same dance she knows as american waltz)

[Warren J. Dew]

today the places to go ballroom dancing are few and in between in comparison and if you do go ,the dance floor is dominated by international type dancing you hardly see any American ballroom dancing on the dance floor. as for my post above there is a major difference between the 2 in footwork and style( especially style!!)
I think perhaps it depends on where you go. The place my wife and I went last night has mostly American style. A lot of the people there do dance continuity American style, though, which some people mistake for International.

Other places that we go have mostly International style; in the Boston area, at least, you can find both if you look.

[JIMMY]

I think i understand why the confusion .
I am talking about ballroom dancing style before the 60's I'm old enough to remember LOL.
what you all are talking about is today's contemporary American ballroom style dancing which is actually evolved into a kind of international style mixs of American /international
Even the International style today is very different than before. If you look at tapes of Billy and Bobbie Irvine dancing ( who were the International ballroom dance champions 10 years running )you would see a big difference between International style then and today. hopefully someone on this board is old enough to remember the American ballroom style dancing I'm talking about lol :oops: :o

[Chris Stratton]

What kind of qualities from that era do you see missing in today's dancing?

In terms of the Irvines - yes, standard has evolved. But the leading dancers of that era are today's senior judges and officials. Their contributions are a large part of the foundation of where ballroom is today and it is their students and students students who are in the top ranks today. There has been evolution, and there are a number of faddish distortions in play at the moment, but Alex Moore's Ballroom Technique (first published in 1948) is till one of the most often referenced authorities. And if you want to start a good technical argument, just drop the question of Irvine CBM vs. Eggleton CBM...

[JIMMY]

I'm answering in the understanding that your question is in reference to international ballroom dancing .( and I am talking about General style now. Not footwork or technical arguments ).

The major difference that i see is that in the old international style, the man featured the woman. ( you know the old saying the woman is the picture and the man is the frame )

today's Man style of dancing international is more flamboyant/flashy. which was actually Reserve more for the woman partner in those days.....

[Warren J. Dew]

I think i understand why the confusion .
I am talking about ballroom dancing style before the 60's I'm old enough to remember LOL.
what you all are talking about is today's contemporary American ballroom style dancing which is actually evolved into a kind of international style mixs of American /international
I'll admit to not having been there in the '50s, but stylistically, it does not look to me like the American style of recent decades is fundamentally different from what I see in the Astaire/Roger's films of the '30s. But I, too, am interested in more information about what differences you see - can you give us more description?

[JIMMY]

The movies version that you see is the Hollywood interpretation of ballroom dancing actually represents Hollywood version of that era and it is show business type dancing( exaggerated IN style for public consumption). Not even resembling the actual ballroom dancing of that era,,,,,,,,,, it would be almost impossible to describe in words since my vocabulary is imited in regards to describing this. it is best if you could find some authentic documentary style films of actual ballroom dancing in those days I believe there is some existing of ROSELAND DANCE CITY from the 40's and 50's. or the harvest Moon ball... which was a yearly dance competition in New York City.

[Chris Stratton]

Actually I was primarily interested in what qualities of the old American Style you see missing today.

In terms of standard, I do agree that the men have pulled more attention onto themselves. Today many lines are taught with the leader quite presented and shaped away from the lady, wheras I'm told before the men sacrificed themselves to improve the lady's shape. But if you think this is bad, just look at contemporary latin. (See how fast I can spin! Want to see me do it again? I am so hot! Who are you? oh yeah, they did say I had to drag a girl on the floor with me...)

But in smooth there are possibly three competing trends. One closely resembles standard traditions, where the emphasis is on the lady but the man has many contributions to what she does, in effect dancing through her as something subtle he does gains its visual outlet in what she does. Another is more in line with the ballet concept of partnering, where the man is more of a prop about which the dancer (the lady) performs. The big difference here is that the severing of the closed hold means that unless the partners really try to maintain connection, a lot of what the lady does really is independent, leaving the man little role in the dancing of the partnership. Finally, the third approach seems to be to have both partners as co-equal "look at me" performers, utlizing neither the ballroom nor ballet traditions of drawing attention to the lady.

[Chris Stratton]

It would be interesting to see film of dancing in earlier eras.

However, I'd be hesitant to say that taking a camera into a social ballroom venue today would really capture contemporary ideas of dancing. There's a difference between what qualities are considered important today, and what qualities you would actually see if you spy on typical social dancers. Competitors aren't perfect either, given the kinds of compromises in dance quality they are sometimes willing to make in order to defeat the competition. I think if you wanted to document what is considered good dancing today, you'd have to go to a top retired pro like Stephen Hillier and ask him to show you his idea of good dancing in the abstract rather than competition-winning sense.

It would be very interesting to see film of a lecture/demonstration by his British and American equivelents from 30 or 40 years ago.

[Warren J. Dew]

Well, Jimmy did start the thread talking about social dance. I'd certainly be interested in seeing the tapes if they are easily available - though my impression was that social dancing in the 1950s was mostly swing, with ballroom relatively small. I'd be interested in Jimmy's take on that.

[JIMMY]

WELL In regards to Latin international dancing style LOL, it has become so flamboyant and narcissistic that the difference between the man style and the woman style has been completely blurred let's put it this way if you take the DRESS of the woman and put it on the man and vice versa except for the man leading and the woman following you will see very little difference in the style LOL( and I don't mean this in any prejudiced way so please let's not start any drama LOL)

[JIMMY]

Ballroom dancing was a very big in the 50's Arthur MURRY had a weekly television show teaching the public how to dance, there were over 1000 dance studios all over the United States teachings thousands of hours of ballroom dancing to the public. the swing that you are talking about was part of the teenage trend at the time. however the more mature crowd went ballroom dancing sometimes 2 three times a week. if you can find some of the television shows tapes you will also see some of the American ballroom dancing that was practiced at the time.

[etchuck]

The swing dance instructor for our club last night brought out some videotapes to show what "West Coast Swing" was like 3 decades ago, which does not resemble at all what the current style is. It was more like circular lindy with in my opinion various hustle/disco elements rather than a cool slotted dance that you see now. I would be interested if anyone did have videos of performances from "back in the day". I'm not sure the contrast would be as great, but who knows.

[Chris Stratton]

This could indeed be intersting to see. However if the reference for 'then' is an AM teaching TV show, then the comparison reference for 'now' should be an AM teaching video aimed at the same market segment. I don't think it's fair to compare the ages unless you use the same type of sample from each.

I continue to have a strong suspicion that the biggest difference between then and now is not in what was ultimately known or desired, but in how widely this knowledge was spread throughout the US. There has always been a mix between dancers with little, some, and a lot of training. My guess is that the biggest difference today is that those with a moderate amount of training receive more usefull information, from teachers with a more thorough understanding of the underlying issues, than those most of those who took a lot of studio training in past generations. For me the intesesting difference is not in the quality of dancing of the untrained, but in the effectiveness of the training presented to the dedicated towards helping them accomplishing what would appear to be their goals in a given dance.

I would be really interested to look at an example figure where something like the accepted footwork appears to have changed over the past 40 years.

[JIMMY]

If there's anybody in reading this thread, that used to teach dancing between 1950 and 1965 I would like to hear what you have to say in regard to this matter . thank you all again for your participation in this thread :lol:

[Sania]

But if you think this is bad, just look at contemporary latin. (See how fast I can spin! Want to see me do it again? I am so hot! Who are you? oh yeah, they did say I had to drag a girl on the floor with me...)

That's hilarious, Chris!

[JIMMY]

But if you think this is bad, just look at contemporary latin. (See how fast I can spin! Want to see me do it again? I am so hot! Who are you? oh yeah, they did say I had to drag a girl on the floor with me...)

That's hilarious, Chris!

Yes hilarious/. very true observation ballroom Latin division is a celebration oF narcissism LOL.
Also a lot of the continuity and softness( especially in the woman's part) in the style that used to be associated with Latin dancing has disappeared and has been replaced . Seems like ballroom MAMBOS. CHA CHA and BOLERO is done in a style that was reserved only for PASSADOBLE. In other words the styling of PASSADOBLE is dominating the other three dances above!!

[JIMMY]

But if you think this is bad, just look at contemporary latin. (See how fast I can spin! Want to see me do it again? I am so hot! Who are you? oh yeah, they did say I had to drag a girl on the floor with me...)

That's hilarious, Chris!

Yes hilarious/. very true observation ballroom Latin division is a celebration oF narcissism LOL.
Also a lot of the continuity and softness( especially in the woman's part) in the style that used to be associated with Latin dancing has disappeared and has been replaced . Seems like ballroom MAMBOS. CHA CHA and BOLERO are done in a style that was reserved only for PASSADOBLE. In other words the styling of PASSADOBLE is dominating the other three dances above!!

[Chris Stratton]

Yes hilarious/. very true observation ballroom Latin division is a celebration oF narcissism LOL.
Also a lot of the continuity and softness( especially in the woman's part) in the style that used to be associated with Latin dancing has disappeared and has been replaced .

I wonder if any of this is a result of shifts in who is doing latin dancing today?


Seems like ballroom MAMBOS. CHA CHA and BOLERO is done in a style that was reserved only for PASSADOBLE. In other words the styling of PASSADOBLE is dominating the other three dances above!!

Now I'm not as sure what you mean, because you've listed two american rhythm dances, along with one that could be either style, and compared them to an international latin dance.

I could agree with the idea that American Rhythm is struggling to maintain a unique identity in a world where international latin sets the expectation, not only in terms of look but also in terms of the kind of intense training and devotion (even if taken beyond the point of productivity) currently associated with 'serious' dancing. But I'm not sure if this is inline with what you were trying to say.

[Chris Stratton]

In terms of the smooth dances, it would be interesting to look at apparent changes over the years.

One situation I did run into and managed to start some discussion on in another forum in the past, was the lady's footwork in certain continuity smooth actions. For example, a continuity finish such as the 2nd half of an open reverse turn. I've usually heard this taught with the lady rolling through her heel after the right foot pivots, making it essentially identical to the international style feather finish. But I also encountered a smooth/standard pro who insisted that this step should be toe only, for a more waltz-like rise in the continuity forms of both American Waltz and Foxtrot. The USISTD requires toe-heel footwork, but then the "I" in their name comes from being the US branch of the British Empire's dance establishment ;-)

[bjp22tango]

I wasn't around in the 50's to see what kind of dancing they were doing, but if you want Hollywoods versions of what they were dancing check out various movies of the era. I seem to remember Samba or Bossa Nova being popular in several movies, and all the romantic comedies of the time seemed to have a night club dancing scene.

Lawrence Welk's weekly TV show went on for decades and always showed the audience social dancing so this would also be a good place to start.

I have social danced with "older" (60-80) people all my dance life and here are some of my thoughts on the differences between what they do and what is currently taught. This is focused on what is danced in a purely social dance scene, no dance studio or competiton scenes.

Dancing not so concerned about traveling quickly around the floor. Little awareness of ballroom orientation (DW, DC, etc.), mostly concerned with LOD only. The lead seems to be more relaxed. Not wishywashy by any means, but not widearmed. The ladies could be arm led instead of frame led, but again definitely focusing on what will change the ladies movement in the simplest way, not being a reflexion of bad tone on the mans part. Pivot turns tend to take up a small space instead of progressing down the floor. Most moves in the Bronze or low Silver level as we know them today. Little or no concept of toe/heel footwork. Lots of flat footed dancing. All of this would make sense on a very crowded dance floor with flow of traffic inhibiting fast traveling. There is no need for a lot of leg compression if traffic is moving very slowly and most dancing is done relatively in place. Also, movements are naturally smaller if not trying to show "volume" for judges or spectators, but instead are concentrating on the connection between partners.

Jimmy has made a telling comment. In the 50's and early 60's there were no computers and television cable stations to keep our rear ends glued to the chair, so people went out to dance as a social event. Most of them probably danced with their spouse/SO so technique was probably a lot less important then than now. As I have mentioned on another thread, couples who don't intend to dance with anyone else can be very happy dancing a few basic figures, adjusting to each others foibles.

I also would be interested to hear from people who actually danced in the heyday to see if my take is accurate or just a load of hooey 8)

[dadutchdancer]

hi im from holland but i was wondering what do u mean by international/american styles

[Sagitta]

Welcome to df! The style of ballroom dancing in Europe is typically international. In America a different style of dancing evolved, hence the name American. There are ballroom competitions where both the typically European/international and American styles are done. Others can explain better and I am sure if you search this forum you will get plenty of answers.

[Porfirio Landeros]

American Style categories:

Smooth: Waltz, Tango, Foxtrot, Viennese Waltz
Dancing is not limited to a closed dance position - dancers can dance holding hands, one hand, shadow, or even side-by-side (not touching). International technique and styling is still applied.

Rhythm: Cha Cha, Rumba, East Coast Swing, Bolero, Mambo
Cha Cha is basically the same. Rumba is done with a box figure, and uses 1-2 for the slow. EC Swing is significantly slower than Jive, ideally done with a swinging action and down on 2. Bolero is close to the Int Rumba basic, but breaks on 3, and has rise in the middle; also the music is slower. Mambo, well, it's MAMBO :)

[Larinda McRaven]

Porfirio's avatar/picture above is a great example of American Smooth.
As you can see they are not in traditional standard/modern closed hold.
Watcha doing in there... probably a waltz...?

[etchuck]

International style is what is otherwise known as the British standard. I have been told that Asian-style ballroom exists and dancing it is ... well... different.

American style has more open positions and has its influence from Arthur Murray and Fred Astaire and the Hollywood types... I think. It looks more interesting when it comes to performances, in my opinion.

Aside discussion: Jive was invented because the Brits just couldn't leave lindyhop/swing alone.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Watcha doing in there... probably a waltz...?Yeah, we're waltzing :) And thanks to sdsalsaguy (Jonathan Marion) for snapping that picture 8)

[dTas]

from my experience teaching styles are also different...

international tends to work towards form and a very defined alignment and configuration for each step and move.

american style concentrates on more of the social aspect... "just getting through the move". in its higher levels, competition, it concentrates on the same things that international focuses on.

i'd say that american begins at a lower level than international but both achieve a high quality of competative dance.

[Chris Stratton]

international tends to work towards form and a very defined alignment and configuration for each step and move.

It's high time to say something about this "precise amounts of turn" misconception.

Very few figures have a precisely required amount of turn. What they do have is a maximum amount of turn which can be achieved with a given technique. And if you want to achieve that maximum amount of turn over a figure, it has to be distributed over the component actions of the figure in a reasonable way. If you try to do more than this, or put the turn in the wrong places, you sacrifice the flow of the dance and often the comfort of the partnership connection. But it's perfectly acceptable to execute any 3/8 turning figure at a little under 1/4 turn, and sometimes even less, if that's what takes you where you need to go.

Or to take a more complicated example, a basic three step can have maybe 1/8 turn, although none is written in the current book. It's possible to do a figure called a curving three with 3/8 (or maybe more?) of turn, but that uses different footwork because the greater amount of turn requires different technique. (The curving three actually is on some American syllabi)

In terms of smooth and standard - smooth is both easier and harder. The sometimes looser hold and prevelance of outside partner steps creates a greater tolerance for misalignment, including impractical amounts or distribution of turn. It's possible to make things sort of work in smooth with inaccuracies that would cause a literal crash in standard. But that greater tolerance also makes it a lot harder to dance smooth cleanly - there's much less indication when things are only slightly wrong, so it's easier to let them become seriously wrong.

Also, if the bodies are seperated more than in closed hold, then the constraints on turns can become more substantial, and even more consideration must be paid to issues like who is on the inside vs. the outside of the turn.

---------------

As a a side note, since the thread title is not american vs. international styles, I had thought we might be about to have a debate on the american approach to international style...

[dTas]

i agree with what you are saying, Chris, but i just wanted to point out...

i didn't say anything about "precise amounts of turn" or rotation. i was addressing "alignment and configuration" (more picky about body position and frame, etc)

[Chris Stratton]

Oops... I'd been itching to write that post and jumped at the first opportunity... without checking to see if it really was a fair one.

Sorry

[standardgirl]

I have been told that Asian-style ballroom exists and dancing it is ... well... different.


Yes, there is "Asian" style if you ever go to Asia and take a dance lesson there. I have never had a lesson there, but my parents had lots of lessons back when we lived there. For competitive purpose, people in Asia do International Style which is basically the same as it is everyehere in the world. But, socially, they dance really different. I guess this is what you refered to as Asian style. It's like American style since it has a lot of open positions, but it's also more "internationalish" (if there is such a word) than the actual International Style. For example, social Cha Cha Cha there goes fwd and backward not to the side.

[tacad]

After reading the Lack of basic step and teaching standard thread I was wondering what in general makes beginning international more difficult than beginning American. A few respectable DFers have said that the more advanced forms are not so different as far as one being more advanced than the other. But apparently it's different in the beginning? Are the basic moves more complex? Is a greater amount of technique required at the bronze level? I did take 3 months of bronze international and there was a lot there but I can't tell if it was inherent to international or if it was just the teacher's style.

[dTas]

from my experience International is much more rigorous in making sure you keep the style and form (in the beginning). you start right off working on form, figure, step.

American is more relaxed about it and just worry about where you're stepping and which foot you're stepping with.

one thing i've noticed... International doesn't concentrate on lead and follow as much as American, in the beginning.

[tacad]

Sounds like it's a cultural thing? I mean it's not written down anywhere to start off more slowly? Are the bronze syllabus figures also less complex in American? I've also heard that there are many more opportunities to compete with International than with American.

[Larinda McRaven]

from my experience International is much more rigorous in making sure you keep the style and form (in the beginning). you start right off working on form, figure, step.

American is more relaxed about it and just worry about where you're stepping and which foot you're stepping with.

one thing i've noticed... International doesn't concentrate on lead and follow as much as American, in the beginning.


These are differences in teaching style. Not differences in the actual dance styles.

[Chris Stratton]

The issue with standard dances not having one or two measure repeatable basic steps is kind of a concern for how much you can accomplish in the first hour or two of instruction. But within the first three or four hours it should be possible to learn the short sequence of steps forming a repeatable unit, and I have seen it done moderately well even within the first hour.

If you need to get things going faster, you can just borrow social american style basics to teach in the first hour - a stationary left turning box is no less related to a progressive 3/8 international reverse turn than it is to a progressive 3/8 american waltz left turn. There's even a close cousin of social american foxtrot formally recognized as an introductory study for international technique.

[tacad]

Sounds like my first international lesson. Until then I had only done the repeatable patterns in American. then in waltz we launched into (if memory is correct) the natural turn except we started on the count of 3 on the left foot to get into it followed by??? And I was not catching the change from left to right. And twinkles (called something else) and streamlines and...

I was one very confused person for a while. Then at another studio I did American left 3/8 progressive (or two of them, one forward, one backward), change step, right 3/8 progressive (or two again), change step. Then tried the international again which made so much more sense then. But at first I couldn't even count 1,2,3, probably due to the instructors teaching method than to the style of dance. But the pattern I just described is not a repeatable 2 measure step so I think I get the concept in the other thread. You can't keep doing the 3/8 turns or you go in a circle going the wrong way.

[geoffbjcn]

Hi, I have some newbie questions regarding the different type of dances in American smooth and rythm vs. international standard & latin. :roll:
1. Is there any correlation between them?
2. If yes, how can we compare them? What's similar and what's different?

Some other questions:
3. I read from a chinese website that Jive and Jitterbug are twin brothers. Is that true? How do they compare with Swing?
4. Can anyone tell me where are the origins of the 5 internations latin dances?

Thanks in advance. :)

[DanceMentor]

Well, I will start by saying that American Smooth allows you to leave closed position and do turns and even solo work, while International Standard requires you to remain in closed position at all times.

Also, Jitterbug is usually used loosely to describe the "wild" form of swing with acrobatics., while Jive is more related to the dance found on the International Latin syllabus. It is fast, and Jitterbug can be too, but Jitterbug is more of a word to describe what people see, as opposed to it being an actual dance.

[geoffbjcn]

Thanks DanceMentor!

I have seen some video of Australian New Vogue and it seems to have a lot of solo work compared to international standard. Maybe it looks like American Smooth in that sense? I have never seen any video of American Smooth before.

Now I have better understanding of Jive, Swing and Jitterbug. Thanks again.

Any input for other types of dances? Is Mambo the American version of Samba? Bolero the American version of Paso? How about the 5 dances in international standard compared to the 5 dances in American Smooth? :)

[ACtenDance]

Any input for other types of dances? Is Mambo the American version of Samba? Bolero the American version of Paso? How about the 5 dances in international standard compared to the 5 dances in American Smooth? :)

Mambo is more like Salsa breaking on 2. I think of Bolero as a mix of Rumba and Tango. And there are only 4 dances typically danced competitively in American Smooth.

If you find the MIT ballroom team's webpage, you'll be able to find a bunch of competition videos from their competition which includes both international and american styles. I think that seeing the difference would be infinitely more valuable than any description that we can give.

Oh, and Warren J. Dew's signature has a link to a website that I think he put together that has phenomenal competition videos of both international and american events of professionals and good amateurs.

[Porfirio Landeros]

For the best example of American Smooth, you should check out ClassicDancers.com - the website of Michael Mead and Toni Redpath, since they have quite a few pictures and a couple of video clips of Smooth ballroom. They are 4-time undefeated professional champions in this style. He's also been known to poke in at dance forums from time to time.

[geoffbjcn]

Thanks guys! I'm checking out the MIT dance team website now and I will definitely check out classicdancers.com too

BTW, ACtenDance those pix and video clips on your website are cool! Thanks for sharing with us! :D

[Sunshines Partner]

Any input for other types of dances? Is Mambo the American version of Samba? Bolero the American version of Paso? How about the 5 dances in international standard compared to the 5 dances in American Smooth? :)

Mambo is more like Salsa breaking on 2. I think of Bolero as a mix of Rumba and Tango. And there are only 4 dances typically danced competitively in American Smooth.

If you find the MIT ballroom team's webpage, you'll be able to find a bunch of competition videos from their competition which includes both international and american styles. I think that seeing the difference would be infinitely more valuable than any description that we can give.

Oh, and Warren J. Dew's signature has a link to a website that I think he put together that has phenomenal competition videos of both international and american events of professionals and good amateurs.

Bolero is more a mixture of several dances (Rumba, Fox trot- Quick’s and slows and Waltz- Rise and Fall) also done more with a smooth frame- wider. It is of all the dances in Latin or Rhythm the sensual and sexy.

[saludas]

Someone on this forum recently noted that Bolero looks like American Foxtrot performed on a boat rolling from the waves in a storm

[desidirata]

New Vogue is done in both closed and open positions, but there is no solo work within it in open position the routine is pretty much the same but opposite for the male and female, new vouge also has set steps, every couple does the same steps, there are lots of big arm movements, all new vogue dances have a waltz, foxtrot or tango timing eg: swing waltz (waltz) charmaine (foxtrot) tangoette (tango)

[Stiletto One]

Mambo the American version of Samba WHAAAT?!?!

(lol, sorry, but that's one of the strangest things I've ever heard)

Bolero feels like a very slidey Rumba to me, for what that's worth.

My take:
Internation Standard vs. American Smooth
-Standard is more demanding on you WRT balance and technique. Smooth is a bit more lax on technique, but is a bit harder on lead/follow (more figures, more variation in overall posing, etc.). Standard is more graceful-looking, Smooth is more pretty-looking.

International Latin vs. American Rhythm
Well, they're just different. You still have the overarching "technique vs. LOTS OF STUFF" distinction, in that I think Latin dances have more substance to them whereas Rhythm dances tend toward a more "fun" and "pretty" feel.

My $0.02, keep in mind that I'm pretty new to dance.

[Porfirio Landeros]

... Smooth is a bit more lax on technique, but is a bit harder on lead/follow (more figures, more variation in overall posing, etc.). Standard is more graceful-looking, Smooth is more pretty-looking.Lax on technique? The quality of the technique that is executed in smooth (or in any ballroom style) is based on the ability and level of the dancer, and possibly
the quality of instruction they are receiving. I would not say that any style is a bit more lax on technique than another. I would say that when social dancing, leading/following takes priority over other things, and because American style has a large social following, the dancers you would see at a party doing smooth may care less about technique than those who study standard (since most of the standard dancers have aspirations to compete or become technical dancers), but higher level professional and amateur smooth competitors would hardly consider their approach to technique lax.

Just wanted to set the record straight ;)

[DancingMommy]

To Porfirio - I just looked at your dance clips. Imust commend you & Laetitia on your side by side work. You guys are SO synchronized. FTR I don't really care much for smooth. It always looks like flailing arms to me, lol. But you guys look good. My poor coach is also a competitor in Smooth (when he has a partner) and I like HIS dancing too, but for the most part.... It just doesn't move me at *all*.

Now back to your regular scheduled posting. ;)

[Chris Stratton]

... Smooth is a bit more lax on technique, but is a bit harder on lead/follow (more figures, more variation in overall posing, etc.). Standard is more graceful-looking, Smooth is more pretty-looking.Lax on technique? The quality of the technique that is executed in smooth (or in any ballroom style) is based on the ability and level of the dancer, and possibly
the quality of instruction they are receiving. I would not say that any style is a bit more lax on technique than another.

I'm yet to see a post-beginner competition where the smooth events were as or more rigorous technically than the standard, unless the same couple won both. Smooth has so much else going on, that it's rare that the details common with standard will get sufficient attention to be executed with equal quality.

So, typically a smooth dancer watching standard thinks it's a little boring; a standard dancer watching smooth thinks it's a little bit sloppy.

[geoffbjcn]

New Vogue is done in both closed and open positions, but there is no solo work within it in open position the routine is pretty much the same but opposite for the male and female, new vouge also has set steps, every couple does the same steps, there are lots of big arm movements, all new vogue dances have a waltz, foxtrot or tango timing eg: swing waltz (waltz) charmaine (foxtrot) tangoette (tango)

That's a very accurate description of what I have seen in the video. Sorry when I say "solo work" I meant open position... :) A newbie's mistake. Anyways, I like New Vogue better than the standard ballroom dance as it "prettier". (Again, I don't know how to put it into good wording..:)) And the music (the one that I watched is Jazz music) is fantastic and it goes very well with the style of New Vogue.

Mambo the American version of Samba WHAAAT?!?!

(lol, sorry, but that's one of the strangest things I've ever heard)

:P I don't know, I just ask. Actually I only watched some Mambo dance from one of Slavik's showdance and the music tempo sounds like Samba to me and some of the choregrahy look pretty much like that of Samba (like Promenades run and some other stuff). That's why I put this question here and ask for you guys opinions! :D

BTW, I'm also a newbie just coming to the latin dance world about 5 months ago. :D

[Rugby]

I still compete in both and the overall technique is not alot different really. If in closed or in open moves moving through the standing leg, keeping a good posture and frame, using the compression through ankle and knees, and so forth, its the same. When you get to silver and gold even a lot of the moves are the same in both styles. Watch the Silver Waltz from Dancevision and you'll recognize a good many International foxtrot moves. Check out moves on some of the other tapes and you'll see a lot of similarities in both styles.

[Chris Stratton]

It's the similarities which highlight the difference in technical quality.

Also note that a lot of common silver smooth material is baisc open standard material. Seen in that context a year or three later in one's training it does tend to look better than when first "previewed" in silver smooth.

[tacad]

Hmmm. I wonder which is at more of a disadvantage: A smooth couple competing in standard, or a standard couple competing in smooth? Of course this may not even make any sense.

[tacad]

Some anecdotes from the lower levels:

One International friend of mine a year ago said that American was invented to make the dances so everyone could dance them. Then another friend was talking with the first friend and told her she didn't need all that extra stuff. Just dance.

At a dance Saturday, an International dancer dancing with me an American dancer asked if I was dancing American. I proudly responded yes. She said that it seemed very easy. I was thinking that I worked darn hard for a year and a half on it. But she was cute (and Russian with the most gorgeous accent!) so I didn't say anything. :wink:

Ah well. :lol:

DISCLAIMER: Just some personal experiences I've had in my world with regard to this subject. I did take 4 months of International before I did any serious American studies. This particular class blew me away with the intensity. But it could have been the individual teacher rather than the fact that it was international. I totally lack the perspective to say.

[DancingMommy]

tacad - Smooth competing Standard. ;) I once heard a Smooth pro couple say that Standard dancers had a leg up as it were since they had good grounding in classic (closed) hold. Interestingly enough, I do believe that the top pros in Smooth ALL have had a background in Standard. ;)

[DancingMommy]

Some anecdotes from the lower levels:

One International friend of mine a year ago said that American was invented to make the dances so everyone could dance them. Then another friend was talking with the first friend and told her she didn't need all that extra stuff. Just dance.

At a dance Saturday, an International dancer dancing with me an American dancer asked if I was dancing American. I proudly responded yes. She said that it seemed very easy. I was thinking that I worked darn hard for a year and a half on it. But she was cute (and Russian with the most gorgeous accent!) so I didn't say anything. :wink:

Ah well. :lol:

DISCLAIMER: Just some personal experiences I've had in my world with regard to this subject. I did take 4 months of International before I did any serious American studies. This particular class blew me away with the intensity. But it could have been the individual teacher rather than the fact that it was international. I totally lack the perspective to say.

I will say that Int'l Standard has rocked my proverbial world. I find it infinitely more challenging for *me* as a dancer (over 15 years of dance training thus far). I think I've gotten more out of my Standard training than I did from my generic American Style training. Although, I am relearning HOW to dance American at our local socials.

[tacad]

What is it you're relearning?

[Larinda McRaven]

One International friend of mine a year ago said that American was invented to make the dances so everyone could dance them.

hhmmn, International came first then American was invented?

Seems like people were dancing with underarm turns way before someone else wrote it down and said you had to stay in closed position and follow set patterns and alignments.

[tacad]

:lol: I will certainly take your word for it. Thanks for clearing that up!

[DancingMommy]

What is it you're relearning?

How to follow really bad/sloppy/<insert term here> leads. ;)

[tacad]

:lol:

[Porfirio Landeros]

I'm yet to see a post-beginner competition where the smooth events were as or more rigorous technically than the standard, unless the same couple won both.If you're only going to compare heel turns and wisks between the standard and smooth competitors, then you're probably right - the standard dancers will be nailing those up and down the floor, but isn't there another side to the coin? Wouldn't you say that the top smooth dancers execute shadow work better than the standard dancers, as well as underarm turns, single-hand connections, etc? Just because the things I just mentioned are not on the standard syllabus doesn't mean they don't have technique associated with them. Also, how is it that our top smooth dancers repeatedly place higher in the World Classic Showdance division than many Blackpool standard finalists if standard technique meant everything? There's something to be said for having good technique in holds outside of closed position, it's just some dancers aren't up to the challenge ;)

[Porfirio Landeros]

Seems like people were dancing with underarm turns way before someone else wrote it down and said you had to stay in closed position and follow set patterns and alignments.Amen to that :!:

[bjp22tango]

Hmmm. I wonder which is at more of a disadvantage: A smooth couple competing in standard, or a standard couple competing in smooth? Of course this may not even make any sense.

If you got to see Championship Ballroom Dancing (Ohio Star Ball highlights taped for PBS) back when they were just starting to broadcast the Showdance competition in addition to the International Competition you would have seen several International couples struggling with the openwork concept.

On the show, the dancers danced all five dances on the floor together in normal competition. Then they drew a dance from a bowl and had to dance a solo routine to the dance picked, not always their strongest dance, for additional points. In the beginning this was just a straightforward solo of pure International technique.

This must have been boring for the viewing audience because this was changed to two separate competitions and the solo part was renamed Showdance. You could really tell the difference between those dancers with some American Style or Showdance background and those with only International Style because the "newbies" tended to have choppy arm and leg movements in open work and didn't appear comfortable dancing away from their partners.

Within a couple of years this difference disappeared as the top competitors worked on Showdance routines, but it was very noticable at first.

IMO, the two styles appeal to two completely different personalities.

International, with it's emphasis on close partner hold and literally "two dancing as one" appeals to the rational side of the brain because it really does take more technique for two people to dance well in continous contact. It also severely restricts soft body movements which gives it the "stiff, stuck-up, boring" comments from dancers who prefer a softer, or looser style.

American style, while also emphasising closed partner dancing, also emphasises open position work and side by side work. It employs different technique, and IMO appeals more to the creative side of the brain. The very moves that make American style more "creative" also make it appear "sloppy, loose, untechnical" to those who prefer the International style.

I grew up in America watching Fred Astaire movies and 40's Swing dance movies. These are the styles that call to me. However, I have also taken International classes and understand the challenge and excitement of making two bodies glued together appear feather light and velvety smooth.

If I had grown up in England, I would probably feel differently, because the societal and dance styles would have been different.

[Joe]

IMO, in recent years both Smooth and Latin have been moving in the wrong direction--too much side-by-side. It seems like half or more of each routine has no connection. (You can say what you want about a "visual" connection...)

And regarding American Style being easier to dance, how do you explain the generations of non-American dancers who learned to dance without American Style? They just had a hard time of it?

[wyllo]

I think that Smooth is more of a beginner/social dancer friendly style than International & that gives it the reputation of being 'easier.' In the syllabus you get to start dancing what are gold/open level steps in Standard. To allow dancers to do these complicated moves the syllabus levels of Smooth do seem to have to be a little 'lax' on technique. This isn't necessarily a bad thing -- not everyone has the drive to get to the gold/open levels, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to dance those steps. On the other hand, If your drive is to be a top competitor it in many ways makes sense to follow the Standard syllabus since it has an emphasis on very basic steps that make it easier to focus on technique (IMO). This drives the impression that serious dancers must do Standard and that it is inherently more technique oriented.

Somewhere along the way the two styles catch up to eachother in skill and difficulty level and it is no easier to dance an open routine in Smooth than it is in Standard. It's just very different.

[callen]

Well, I seem to have some very different views than many of you, though it could mostly be that I consider competitions different than styles.

I consider executing proper smooth technique to be much harder than executing proper standard technique. If it's part of standard technique, then it's also part of smooth technique. However, smooth technique also includes work in shadow position, open positions, and separation. Think of this more along the lines of a 10-dancer. Just because they do both standard and Latin doesn't make the styles any less rigorous. However, you will rarely see a 10-dancer reach the level in a single style that the top dancers focused on only that style reach. Does that mean the 10-dancers are worse dancers? Not in my opinion; they may not epitomize a single style so well, but that doesn't make them worse.

As for the level of competition, two things need to be considered. First, there are far more international style competitors and competitions in the world. Just based on numbers you should see significantly more high level standard dancers than smooth dancers. Second, just as with the 10-dancers, having to work on a larger variety of areas will spread training, so you should not see as many dancers as strong in a single one of these areas from a style that focuses on more.

I consider my standard training to help me more with social dancing than my smooth training. Sure, the smooth helps me here an there with a minor floorcraft issue or to spice things up. However, the persistent focus on lead-follow in closed position in standard I find most useful on the floor. Smooth tends to make the couple take more space, which isn't the best socially; separated work is harder to manage with someone who is inexperienced; and a lot of inexperienced followers do not maintain connection when doing open work, making the lead-follow that should be there, too, much harder.

Christopher

[Larinda McRaven]

However, I have also taken International classes and understand the challenge and excitement of making two bodies glued together appear feather light and velvety smooth.

It IS a great feeling but the same thing can be felt in shadow, or as I spin to Steve from open and roll into closed... and when it is seamless and perfect it feels just as deliciously light and velvety smooth as a great feather.

[Larinda McRaven]

IMO, in recent years both Smooth and Latin have been moving in the wrong direction--too much side-by-side. It seems like half or more of each routine has no connection. (You can say what you want about a "visual" connection...)

Joe I completely agree with you. I often smooth couples in the RS division that start 3 out of the 4 dances apart and never even touched each other (let alone got into closed hold) for well over three quarters of teh whole song. They maybe touch for one or two measures and go back to apart for the rest of the dance. They might as well have been jazz dancers on stage rather than a couple dancing together. It kinda defeats the whole point of having a partner if you are not going to even touch them.

People have been griping about this for a few years now with the latin... it saddens me to know that smooth is moving in the same direction.

[cornutt]

Interestingly enough, I do believe that the top pros in Smooth ALL have had a background in Standard. ;)

Hmm... Next time I see David Hamilton, I'll have to ask him. Myself, I don't know enough about international to express an informed opinion.

[cornutt]

Joe I completely agree with you. I often smooth couples in the RS division that start 3 out of the 4 dances apart and never even touched each other (let alone got into closed hold) for well over three quarters of teh whole song.

I am completely with you and Joe on this. I've seen stuff in comps over the past year that looked more liked exhibition dancing that most exhibitions do. :headwall: My wife and I do a cha-cha exhibition which starts apart, but other than that, there is only one place where we are out of contact (a press line leading into chase turns, lasting about 10 seconds). I find it a very pleasing routine to dance. In ballroom, if partners dance completely apart, well, I'm not sure I see the point in that.

[Another Elizabeth]

Think of this more along the lines of a 10-dancer. Just because they do both standard and Latin doesn't make the styles any less rigorous. However, you will rarely see a 10-dancer reach the level in a single style that the top dancers focused on only that style reach. Does that mean the 10-dancers are worse dancers? Not in my opinion; they may not epitomize a single style so well, but that doesn't make them worse.

This is the most lucid and succinct way of getting this concept across that I have ever seen. Mind if I steal it next time I have to make this argument? ;)

[callen]

This is the most lucid and succinct way of getting this concept across that I have ever seen. Mind if I steal it next time I have to make this argument? ;)

Go ahead, do as you will with it.

Christopher

[chachachacat]

IMO, the two styles appeal to two completely different personalities.

International, with it's emphasis on close partner hold and literally "two dancing as one" appeals to the rational side of the brain because it really does take more technique for two people to dance well in continous contact. It also severely restricts soft body movements which gives it the "stiff, stuck-up, boring" comments from dancers who prefer a softer, or looser style.

American style, while also emphasising closed partner dancing, also emphasises open position work and side by side work. It employs different technique, and IMO appeals more to the creative side of the brain. The very moves that make American style more "creative" also make it appear "sloppy, loose, untechnical" to those who prefer the International style.


I like this! I've never heard it before, bit it seems to fit for me.

[tacad]

Hmmm. That was bjp22tango who wrote that above. Not me. :wink:

[chachachacat]

Hmmm. That was bjp22tango who wrote that above. Not me. :wink:
I knew that. :wink:

[tacad]

:wink:

[Twilight_Elena]

According to MIT's Ballroom Dance Team website, ballroom dances are categorised as follows:

Standard
* International Waltz
* International Tango
* International Viennese Waltz
* International Foxtrot
* International Quickstep

Latin
* International Cha Cha
* International Samba
* International Rumba
* International Paso Doble
* International Jive

Smooth
* American Waltz
* American Tango
* American Foxtrot
* American Viennese Waltz

Rhythm
* American Cha Cha
* American Rumba
* American Swing
* American Bolero
* American Mambo

As we can all see, there are dances that are both in American and International categories, such as the Cha Cha, the Waltz, the Rumba, or the Foxtrot. When I asked a teacher of mine to give me the basic difference between the two, she said that, basically, there's social and competition style. International is competiton style.
Is that how it goes? Comments, please.

Twilight Elena

[mamboqueen]

That's not quite accurate. American style is also done in competition, however, latin style is rarely done socially (except perhaps a smattering of samba and quickstep).

Don't have time (nor the level of expertise required) to distinguish the two, as I'm on the way out to go watch a comp. But, there are plenty of people here who can elaborate on this for you.

[Chris Stratton]

Of the four styles, quite simply people dance in either social or competitive settings those that they *know*

Almost all competitive events specify style (though many US competitions will offer events in all four styles). Many social venues may have incumbent traditions for some styles over others, but there's more flexibility to make your own decision there. At least to the degree the DJ enables it - many social american foxtrots and rumbas, and even sometimes waltzes are played too fast for the internal versions of those dances.

[randomMysh]

All four are danced in competition, although the American style seems to be limited just to, well, America as far as the competitive aspect goes.
While the two styles share some of the dances, such as the cha cha and the rumba, they are danced differently. International cha is much faster than American, International rumba is much slower. Technique-wise, I think the most important difference is that in Latin the knee is straight as you're stepping on it, and in Rhythm it is bent, and then you straighten it after you place the foot. Mind you, I don't know Latin that well, so this is just from my observation of it.
I know nothing of Smooth and Standard, so I'll leave that to someone who does.
Hope this helps!

[Laura]

The biggest difference between Standard and Smooth is that Standard is always danced in closed hold while Smooth allows the partners to break apart -- it's more jazzy/balletic/modern than Standard. Think Fred Astaire and Ginger Rodgers as a starter. The basic movement technique is the same, though.

[musicchica86]

What about specifically for the Tango? I'm doing a project on this and would really like to elaborate on the difference between American and International, as opposed to just Argentine vs. "ballroom" Tango.

[Another Elizabeth]

This, of course, leads to the in-joke of the ballroom community about tango styles.

American tango is when you have just started dating, and are maintaining some distance from one another while exploring the possibility of getting closer.

Argentine tango is when you have just started sleeping together and can't keep your hands off each other.

International tango is when you have been married for ten years and are only staying together for the sake of the children.

[Another Elizabeth]

(For a real look at the differences, go back to the MIT comp site and look at the videos of the finals to get an idea of the differences in style.)

[musicchica86]

LOL that's hysterical!:uplaugh: I may just have to use that...;)

What's the address for the MIT comp site? You can PM it to me if you like.:D

[DancerForLife]

I have actually competed in all four styles at some point - currently active in three...

To me the biggest difference between latin and rhythm is that latin (to me) is more about technique (straight leg in some dances is very important), whereas rhythm is more about having a good go at it - with style and feeling - with less of a regard for technique. The tempo of rhythm tends to be a bit slower, with mambo being one of the faster dances.

Regarding standard and smooth... hmmm... where do I begin. As Laura pointed out, standard is always danced in a closed hold, where in smooth the couple tends to spend time either apart but holding hands or completely apart (not connected). Smooth has elements of latin style - turns, poses, exaggerated expressions etc. And I think that the tempo of smooth is a bit slower yet again for most dances - perphaps foxtrot being the exception? - to allow for all the 'extra stuff' that is done such as underarm turns, etc.

I am not certain if that all makes a whole lot of sense... Overall I think of the American styles as more free, more expressive, somewhat less technique and more performance/fun oriented. In a way American style is a bit easier to dance socially as the emphasis is on the music and fun and less on closing the feet etc.

[randomMysh]

To me the biggest difference between latin and rhythm is that latin (to me) is more about technique (straight leg in some dances is very important), whereas rhythm is more about having a good go at it - with style and feeling - with less of a regard for technique.

I disagree that rhythm is less technique oriented. Maybe socially, or at specific studios, but I think the style overall can, and often is, very technical, especially for the serious competitors.

[tanya_the_dancer]

This, of course, leads to the in-joke of the ballroom community about tango styles.

American tango is when you have just started dating, and are maintaining some distance from one another while exploring the possibility of getting closer.

Argentine tango is when you have just started sleeping together and can't keep your hands off each other.

International tango is when you have been married for ten years and are only staying together for the sake of the children.

:D This is sooo funny!

Back to the original post, in addition to all other things pointed out, the international chacha and tango are faster than american, but international rumba is slower.

[fascination]

This, of course, leads to the in-joke of the ballroom community about tango styles.

American tango is when you have just started dating, and are maintaining some distance from one another while exploring the possibility of getting closer.

Argentine tango is when you have just started sleeping together and can't keep your hands off each other.

International tango is when you have been married for ten years and are only staying together for the sake of the children.regarding intl tango...then I am one of the few that is enjoying a very hot long marriage....IMO? tango is always hot when done in contact

[fascination]

also...if I was wanting to point to the differences btwn international and smooth...I would definately direct a person's attention to bronze american foxtrot and intl foxtrot


btw...why of why oh why cant I find a man with whom to dance intl foxtrot socially...bsides my pro...so unfair...

[Chris Stratton]

International style tends to use faster tempos for the fast dances and slower tempos for the slow dances than american style.

[tacad]

btw...why of why oh why cant I find a man with whom to dance intl foxtrot socially...bsides my pro...so unfair...
Just curious, is your husband the only international male foxtrotter at the dances you frequent or is it that the other intl male foxtrotters all have partners that they dance with exclusively? Or something else?

[tacad]

I have a suspicion (and am hoping someone will say yea or nay to my unfounded suspicion) that the cultures are different as well: That international culture is more competition oriented, more technically oriented. Meaning simply a greater percentage of intl dancers participate in competitions or take technique more seriously than Am. dancers. (Note I'm hoping to avoid the usual open vs. closed position discussions. Rather how do they approach their dance style?)

[mummsie]

I have a suspicion (and am hoping someone will say yea or nay to my unfounded suspicion) that the cultures are different as well: That international culture is more competition oriented, more technically oriented. Meaning simply a greater percentage of intl dancers participate in competitions or take technique more seriously than Am. dancers. (Note I'm hoping to avoid the usual open vs. closed position discussions. Rather how do they approach their dance style?)

This is not correct in other countries. Because we don't dance smooth in Australia - all our social dancing is based on International Style Ballroom, except that there is a lot less technique used. We also have another style called "New Vogue". While there are only 16 syllabus competition dances in the new vogue style, there are hundreds and hundreds of social new vogue social dances. If you go to a social dance here in Australia they are usually called 60/40 60% New Vogue and 40% combination of latin and standard dances. :-) Gayle

[Chris Stratton]

I have a suspicion (and am hoping someone will say yea or nay to my unfounded suspicion) that the cultures are different as well: That international culture is more competition oriented, more technically oriented. Meaning simply a greater percentage of intl dancers participate in competitions or take technique more seriously than Am. dancers.

I'm going to disagree, in that I don't think any random social dancing to ballroom music by Americans should necessarily be called "American Style". People dancing what is characteristically Amercian Style may actually be a minority in the US, because few people develop a really specific intent without doing it for competition purposes, and as pointed out a lot of those who do go for international (or alternatively, it's rare for a decent american style competitor not to also have some competence in international style). If there's an exception it's probalby pro/am in areas away from the coasts, which might still by traditional be heavily american style (with the students _not_ having crossover competence)?

A populist definition of "American Style" based on what Americans actually dance would probably comprise C&W, WCS, and Salsa...

[fascination]

Just curious, is your husband the only international male foxtrotter at the dances you frequent or is it that the other intl male foxtrotters all have partners that they dance with exclusively? Or something else?neither my husband nor any other male dancers at my studio even dance it...only my instructor:(

[tacad]

I'm going to disagree, in that I don't think any random social dancing to ballroom music by Americans should necessarily be called "American Style". People dancing what is characteristically Amercian Style may actually be a minority in the US, because few people develop a really specific intent without doing it for competition purposes, and as pointed out a lot of those who do go for international (or alternatively, it's rare for a decent american style competitor not to also have some competence in international style). If there's an exception it's probalby pro/am in areas away from the coasts, which might still by traditional be heavily american style (with the students _not_ having crossover competence)?

A populist definition of "American Style" based on what Americans actually dance would probably comprise C&W, WCS, and Salsa...
People just doing a box step or SSQQ should not be considered to dance AM. style? I see your point. Could the same be said of International style dancers or are most of them actually dancing intl., meaning they use intl. technique and style?

There's a competitve couple I see frequently at the dances I go to. I really like their style. They compete in Intl. They said they started out in Am. ,in fact they took lessons from my instructor for a while, but they said there weren't many Am. competitions so they went to Intl. But the reason I like them is their style. There is something a little more flavorful (to me) about their dancing somehow. I need to ask them about this and who their instructor is.
But I would be happy to dance their version of intl.

[tacad]

neither my husband nor any other male dancers at my studio even dance it...only my instructor:(
I could have sworn I read your post. :doh:

That's a bit of a drag. :?

[Fedya]

What about specifically for the Tango? I'm doing a project on this and would really like to elaborate on the difference between American and International, as opposed to just Argentine vs. "ballroom" Tango.

The differences in the two styles are these. The phrasing for one. In American all the steps are to an 8 count phrase. This means that the steps are 8 or some multiple of 8 counts. Int. on the other hand, all the steps are divided into multiple of two counts. Int. also does not allow for the couple to separate, where Am. does. Besides the steps being different from the styles because of the phrasing issue (there are some steps that are in both styles) the technique while in closed position is exactly the same.

[Chris Stratton]

People just doing a box step or SSQQ should not be considered to dance AM. style? I see your point. Could the same be said of International style dancers or are most of them actually dancing intl., meaning they use intl. technique and style?

No, I would consider people just dancing very, minimal undiferentiated basic steps to be going the social introduction to ballroom in general. Even if you are doing travelling 3/8 turns in waltz with foot closure, it's kind of hard to say what style you're dancing. Start really developing things that are unique to one style - link in tango, feather and heel turns in foxtrot, etc, for international, or the look of continuity waltz/foxtrot and purposefull open work for american, and then it's clear you've chosen a style.

The differences in the two styles are these. The phrasing for one. In American all the steps are to an 8 count phrase. This means that the steps are 8 or some multiple of 8 counts. Int. on the other hand, all the steps are divided into multiple of two counts.

There is actually not such a fundamental difference in the interaction with the music. Good international tango is phrased. The difference is that the international figures are defined in smaller pieces, which you have to assemble to create units that fit the music, while the baisc american material tends to be defined in larger groups that come pre-sized. The little pieces/big pieces difference holds for all of the dances really, it's just perhaps more obvious in tango where american gives you a repeatable 2-measure (SSQQS) basic, and international gives you a puzzling collection of spare parts.

[madmaximus]

IMO
In order to appreciate style, you have to consider the similarities in order to gain appreciation of the differences.
Although they share the same music, the tempi can be different.
There are movements that are used in both styles--American and Int'l--thus sharing the same level of necessary technique and expression, BUT they aren't necessarily performed the same way.

There are also marked differences.
Some are obvious--e.g. International Standard is danced strictly in closed position, whereas American Smooth ALLOWS "side-by-side" or "not-in-closed-position" dancing.
Some, not so obvious--e.g. weight placement on toes in Int'l Std is far more forward than it would be in Smooth.
In Latin, the movements have sharper lines than Rhythm, which tend to have less angular and more rounded lines--changing the expression of the dance.
ETC...

Ultimately, it is the central characteristic of the dance that defines its style--thus defining its own collective movement distinct from another.
So, we can say that the International Standard is considerably more STAID, and by extension, its movements less grandiose.
While American Smooth is considerably more FLAMBOYANT--one of the reasons for the side-by-side sweeping movements in largesse.
Int'l Latin conveys a sharper look than its more rounded and softer cousin Rhythm.
Clearly, the reason for straight-leg and bent-leg movements.

So, IMO, it is not the movement that necessarily differentiates one from another.
Rather, it is the purpose behind the movement that defines the style.

Just another perspective,


m

[Chris Stratton]

Some, not so obvious--e.g. weight placement on toes in Int'l Std is far more forward than it would be in Smooth.

Nope. But it's probably different between different figures, and between different teachers explaining the same figures.

[madmaximus]

Nope. But it's probably different between different figures, and between different teachers explaining the same figures.

Your opinion.
And I respect that.

I still hold that your weight is held differently in both styles--where the figures are intrinsic to the style.
And I dance it that way.

m

[Chris Stratton]

Your opinion.
And I respect that.

I still hold that your weight is held differently in both styles--where the figures are intrinsic to the style.
And I dance it that way.


What would you do differently and why?

(BTW, I would almost never hold my weight forward in the toes... that's a dynamic position, not a static one. If I'm stationary my weight is going to be in the middle area of my foot with slight variation by dance and direction, if it's at an extreme my partner knows I'm moving off the foot, not holding on it)

[Another Elizabeth]

I still hold that your weight is held differently in both styles--where the figures are intrinsic to the style.
What about the staid/flamboyant dichotomy between standard and smooth requires this difference, in your opinion? All the top smooth competitors I've ever worked with have maintained that the technique is identical between smooth and standard for closed figures (and much of it is the same for open figures, including weight transfers), so I'm surprised to hear that you see this major difference in weight positioning.

[madmaximus]

What about the staid/flamboyant dichotomy between standard and smooth requires this difference, in your opinion? All the top smooth competitors I've ever worked with have maintained that the technique is identical between smooth and standard for closed figures (and much of it is the same for open figures, including weight transfers), so I'm surprised to hear that you see this major difference in weight positioning.

Respectfully I ask: Why should it be necessarily the same?
Don't you think larger flamboyant movement changes one's balance--requiring better stability?
Doesn't one's balance change in relation to the proximity of one's partner--say because of the amount of pressure/contact with that partner?
From a practical standpoint, when one is on one's toes, doesn't the balance change (however subtly), when the partner moves away from closed position?

But before we hang this heretic, :)
remember what I said about similarities too.
I was talking about a nuanced departure of one style from the other (however subtle or unsubtle).
That there ARE shared movements, that share the same technique, but MAY be executed with subtle differences (perhaps because of entry or exit into open figures)--including shifts in where one's weight is.

And truly, my post was not intended to highlight how the technique is different from one style to the other.
Rather, the perspective is about purpose-driven movement as the defining element of the style--not the little minutiae of weight shift, open work, or other such structural departures from the style.


m

[Chris Stratton]

Doesn't one's balance change in relation to the proximity of one's partner--say because of the amount of pressure/contact with that partner?From a practical standpoint, when one is on one's toes, doesn't the balance change (however subtly), when the partner moves away from closed position?

No, because it's your job to support and propel yourself, not your partner's.

Yes, there are some things possible in smooth or showdance not possible in standard, but that wouldn't be differening techniques for the similar figures, it would be drastically different figures.

[Joe]

Yes, but I think we would all agree that there are concepts and movements in Smooth that are very much like Latin, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Latin technique is identical to the Standard technique.

[cornutt]

I have a suspicion (and am hoping someone will say yea or nay to my unfounded suspicion) that the cultures are different as well: That international culture is more competition oriented, more technically oriented. Meaning simply a greater percentage of intl dancers participate in competitions or take technique more seriously than Am. dancers.

I don't know about the actual numbers or percentage of people who compete in one style or the other, but I think it's fair to say that the intent of International is more specifically to be a competitive endeavor. And it's in part a reflection of the different ways the two styles evolved (which, in turn, is somewhat of a reflection of the differences between European and American culture in general). As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), for International, there is basically one syllabus, the one published by the IDSF. On the other hand, for American style, I'm aware of at least four different syllabi running around loose: Imperial, Authur Murray, Fred Astaire, and DanceVision (NDCA). And I'm sure there are others that I haven't heard of. And note that this changes how American comps are judged vs. International. In International, a particular move is either in syllabus or not for a given level. In American, no one ever really knows. (It's like the old joke about the guy with two watches.) And since comps have to recognize and give leeway for all the different syllabi if they expect a reasonable number of competitors, the result can tend towards anarchy. For example, in American bronze waltz, almost anything you do in a three-count with closed footwork can be credibly claimed as a legitimate bronze step, since it's bound to have appears in some syllabus somewhere. As long as you don't pass the feet or do something else obviously beyond the pale (e.g., lifts), then you'll probably get away with it.

[mamboqueen]

Yes, but I think we would all agree that there are concepts and movements in Smooth that are very much like Latin, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Latin technique is identical to the Standard technique.


I had to read this twice before I LMAO!

[saludas]

I don't know about the actual numbers or percentage of people who compete in one style or the other, but I think it's fair to say that the intent of International is more specifically to be a competitive endeavor. And it's in part a reflection of the different ways the two styles evolved (which, in turn, is somewhat of a reflection of the differences between European and American culture in general). As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), for International, there is basically one syllabus, the one published by the IDSF. On the other hand, for American style, I'm aware of at least four different syllabi running around loose: Imperial, Authur Murray, Fred Astaire, and DanceVision (NDCA). And I'm sure there are others that I haven't heard of. And note that this changes how American comps are judged vs. International. In International, a particular move is either in syllabus or not for a given level. In American, no one ever really knows. (It's like the old joke about the guy with two watches.) And since comps have to recognize and give leeway for all the different syllabi if they expect a reasonable number of competitors, the result can tend towards anarchy. For example, in American bronze waltz, almost anything you do in a three-count with closed footwork can be credibly claimed as a legitimate bronze step, since it's bound to have appears in some syllabus somewhere. As long as you don't pass the feet or do something else obviously beyond the pale (e.g., lifts), then you'll probably get away with it.

I think the reason for the multiplicity of syllabi in American style rests mainly in the economics of American Style. Each major chain and organization has it's own syllabus becuase they are not lookng at American style as any style at all, but as a series of steps and levels for THIER competitors.

The only time that you see these 'syllabus multiplicities' are in the competitions outside of AM and Freddies; when in the grips of a chain comp, supposedly you are judged by what the chain has decided is the right syllabus.

International style is competed worldwide, as compared to American, which is done only thin the US, so it might appear that Am style is less competitive in percentages, and also because you see 'am style' in every social you go to, as Am style is the default beginner method locally (the US).

To get a true perspective (and not the American-centric view that pervades the US thanx to our twangy president - oops, that's another topic) you should go anywhere else in the world and observe how everone else in the world teaches and learns dance. Social styles like american boxy foxtrot is even called a different name in some countries (in the UK I believe it's called 'cuddle style') but it is never confused with real foxtrot, and when I was in Amsterdam and Frankfort, for instance, I obseved rank beginners being taught a feather and weave as their first lessons in beginner foxtrot.

Of course, it is ultimately absurd, IMHO, to 'compete' in a syllabus dance where 4 syllabi are 'rules'. Where is the comparison? of course, some of the chains garde their 'competitors' differently - it is not unusual to see all competitors on the floor getting 'first place'.

And, I think that the TECHNIQUE of Am vs International has nothing to do with the competitivemess of the 'style' - Am can be as challenging as International, and International can be as easy as Am, and vice versa - but it depends on how you approach the technique.

[Chris Stratton]

And, I think that the TECHNIQUE of Am vs International has nothing to do with the competitivemess of the 'style' - Am can be as challenging as International

Yes.

and International can be as easy as Am, and vice versa - but it depends on how you approach the technique.

No. The minimum accuracy to make inside partner continuity actions and heel leads work is higher than that needed to survive outside partner continuity and ordinary turns. Yet the fact that they can work loosely makes it harder to be diligent about doing them right. And when you move to the stage of perfecting everything, amercian is harder, since you have all the concerns of international style, plus many others as well (result in practice: quality of shared details is often slightly lower)

[Joe]

I had to read this twice before I LMAO!
Very subtle, yes? ;)

[fascination]

I had to read this twice before I LMAO!all that personality and the girl's got brains too;)

[mamboqueen]

Lmao!

[D-spot]

American style or International style.
Social setting or compeitive settings.
Either style can be danced in either setting.
I have danced in Canada (Toronto) where 95% of dancers in the social setting dance a recognisable international style. In Britain I have never seen social dancers dance anything other than International Style.

There is a usually a big difference in what people use in the social setting. The technical aspect is down played as is the styling (as in perfomance styling). Personally I like to dance with bags of technique biased towards the social setting. That is lead and follow is king with technique of secondary importance and perfomance styling way down field.
I do find International as easy to dance as American in the social setting.

It is confusing to discuss as the words social and style have multiple meanings in the dance world. Perhaps another thread on the differences between social and competitive dancing?

[saludas]

One of the worst reasons to do American Style, was given to me at the beginning - 'you should learn American Style to dance with others at socials'.

This self-fulfilling prophecy has somehow made American Style the 'default' style for social dancing here in the US - and all the chains promote it too.

Perhaps if more people simply started with Int'l style it would be as 'understood' as the 'Murray Magic Box" or similar 'dumbing downs' of dance...

[wyllo]

When I'm out social dancing, I'm often asked if I know American or International and this question has started to mildly annoy me. I understand where its coming from, but I don't like the assumption that if you've only learned one style you can't possibly follow the other. I mean the principles of lead and follow are the same for each style, right? It's like asking a follow before each step if they know that move.

[tanya_the_dancer]

One of the worst reasons to do American Style, was given to me at the beginning - 'you should learn American Style to dance with others at socials'.

This self-fulfilling prophecy has somehow made American Style the 'default' style for social dancing here in the US - and all the chains promote it too.

Perhaps if more people simply started with Int'l style it would be as 'understood' as the 'Murray Magic Box" or similar 'dumbing downs' of dance...

When I came to the first group class, I had no idea that there are two separate styles. So when the teacher said that we are learning American Style in this class, I assumed that this is how dance is taught in United States and did not question it further. My only encounters with international style were group classes on intl. rumba and tango earlier this year (after 7 years of doing only american style). At this point the main reason for me to start learning more international would be to compete in it eventually. I wouldn't mind that but can't make time for it.

Also, I have found that since international tempos are different than american tempos, people don't like international songs. When we make party cds for our USA Dance parties, we now have to check tempos to make sure that we did not put in international music.

[madmaximus]

No, because it's your job to support and propel yourself, not your partner's.

Yes, there are some things possible in smooth or showdance not possible in standard, but that wouldn't be differening techniques for the similar figures, it would be drastically different figures.
Again, your opinion.
Firstly, I was talking about balance, not support and propulsion (recognizing that they DO affect one another--that's a separate discussion).

Secondly, there's theory and there's reality.

And the reality of it is:
However slight, the points of contact in a body hold WILL change your balance compared to having no partner contact at all.
The mere fact that the lady has to apply SOME pressure (or tone, indication, whatever-the-word-of-the-day-is) in order to feel what you're doing, creates subtle--but not insignificant--shifts in weight.

It WILL change your balance.
Humans are simply not that perfect.
Whether we admit it or not.

m

[madmaximus]

Yes, but I think we would all agree that there are concepts and movements in Smooth that are very much like Latin, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Latin technique is identical to the Standard technique.

I've always wondered about that Rumba Cross. :)
Now I know.

Quite the gem, Joe.

m

[Chris Stratton]

And the reality of it is:
However slight, the points of contact in a body hold WILL change your balance compared to having no partner contact at all.
The mere fact that the lady has to apply SOME pressure (or tone, indication, whatever-the-word-of-the-day-is) in order to feel what you're doing, creates subtle--but not insignificant--shifts in weight.


Yes, but if she's applying enough force that you need to change where your weight is in your foot, she's being very, very heavy!

[Angelo]

Yes, but if she's applying enough force that you need to change where your weight is in your foot, she's being very, very heavy!


Not necessarily. If you apply enough force that she needs to change where the weight is in her foot, it COULD be said that you are giving her a lead. It depends on the context of the movement and carachteristics of the interaction between the bodies

I think what Maximus is getting at is that in partner dances, the bodies are going to interact (otherwise what's the point). In general, the interaction can either promote the desired movement, or detract from it depending on the skills of the partners.

[Larinda McRaven]

I have to agree with Madmaximus, if I have contact my body is going to behave differently than if there is no contact. However closed position is closed position and whether the tempo is 28 bpm or 31 bpm, my box in waltz is going to be the same. But a box step by myself is inherently different than a box step in closed hold.

Also I do not EVER consider that my open work or connections in smooth are anything remotely like latin connections. The methods behind creating shape and movement across space are very different and cannot be compared shapes and movements in place...

[Chris Stratton]

I have to agree with Madmaximus, if I have contact my body is going to behave differently than if there is no contact.

To me, this suggests creating contact as an explicit goal rather than as an incidental result of good body position. The irony actually is that it's not uncommon to see (especially male) smooth dancers holding the kind of extreme back arch position commonly associated with firm body contact... when their partners are arms length away.

However closed position is closed position and whether the tempo is 28 bpm or 31 bpm, my box in waltz is going to be the same. But a box step by myself is inherently different than a box step in closed hold.

I'd argue that it should change slightly for tempo (a technicality) but not at all for hold distance/presence. What would you do differently?

Also I do not EVER consider that my open work or connections in smooth are anything remotely like latin connections. The methods behind creating shape and movement in waltz are very different and cannot be compared rumba...

For swing waltz derived figures done apart, yes. But for some of the flat footed/stationary bits that are so similar to latin, why wouldn't that style of connection be used?

[Porfirio Landeros]

For swing waltz derived figures done apart, yes. But for some of the flat footed/stationary bits that are so similar to latin, why wouldn't that style of connection be used?These are trade secrets, my friend ;)

Sure, there are dancers that simply use Latin-type connections for their open work, but for really high quality smooth, you'll actually find that the preferred connection should feel much like you would want it to in closed position standard, especially due to what part of the foot is being used to enter and leave the end of the line.

[saludas]

When I'm out social dancing, I'm often asked if I know American or International and this question has started to mildly annoy me. I understand where its coming from, but I don't like the assumption that if you've only learned one style you can't possibly follow the other. I mean the principles of lead and follow are the same for each style, right? It's like asking a follow before each step if they know that move.

Not really; for example, movement in an American step might put the follow into an open opsition, rather than a heel turn. It's quite a compliment to be asked of you know a specific technique, rather than just assume that 'it's social dance 101'. And' it makes the choice of dance by the lead a completely different thing, depending on the follow's knowledge, understanding, and such.

If that happens in a social and the lead gets the 'I'm confused by the question' or 'Humph, whatever, I follow' then you know to immediately revert to basic push and pull social. YOU are the loser here, as you miss out on higher level dancing (hopefully LOL)....

[DancePoet]

This, of course, leads to the in-joke of the ballroom community about tango styles.

American tango is when you have just started dating, and are maintaining some distance from one another while exploring the possibility of getting closer.

Argentine tango is when you have just started sleeping together and can't keep your hands off each other.

International tango is when you have been married for ten years and are only staying together for the sake of the children.
:lol:

I'm hoping to have "AT" as part of my repretoire for as long as possible. ;)

[DancePoet]

regarding intl tango...then I am one of the few that is enjoying a very hot long marriage....IMO? tango is always hot when done in contact
Ow! Ow! Ow! :D

Maybe you are really enjoying more "AT" then you realized? ;)

[DancePoet]

also...if I was wanting to point to the differences btwn international and smooth...I would definately direct a person's attention to bronze american foxtrot and intl foxtrot

btw...why of why oh why cant I find a man with whom to dance intl foxtrot socially...bsides my pro...so unfair...
I've learned darn little yet, but look forward to learning more, and when I do, would be happy to give it a whirl. ;)

[DancePoet]

International style tends to use faster tempos for the fast dances and slower tempos for the slow dances than american style.
This was my understanding, too, so when I read some of the other posts I started to become confused. Thanks Chris!

[DancePoet]

I'm going to disagree, in that I don't think any random social dancing to ballroom music by Americans should necessarily be called "American Style". People dancing what is characteristically Amercian Style may actually be a minority in the US, because few people develop a really specific intent without doing it for competition purposes, and as pointed out a lot of those who do go for international (or alternatively, it's rare for a decent american style competitor not to also have some competence in international style). If there's an exception it's probalby pro/am in areas away from the coasts, which might still by traditional be heavily american style (with the students _not_ having crossover competence)?

A populist definition of "American Style" based on what Americans actually dance would probably comprise C&W, WCS, and Salsa...
Ok, but where does this leave the Amercian Ballroom style? Was it not developed in America?

[DancePoet]

IMO
In order to appreciate style, you have to consider the similarities in order to gain appreciation of the differences.
Although they share the same music, the tempi can be different.
There are movements that are used in both styles--American and Int'l--thus sharing the same level of necessary technique and expression, BUT they aren't necessarily performed the same way.

There are also marked differences.
Some are obvious--e.g. International Standard is danced strictly in closed position, whereas American Smooth ALLOWS "side-by-side" or "not-in-closed-position" dancing.
Some, not so obvious--e.g. weight placement on toes in Int'l Std is far more forward than it would be in Smooth.
Why is this?

In Latin, the movements have sharper lines than Rhythm, which tend to have less angular and more rounded lines--changing the expression of the dance.
ETC...

Ultimately, it is the central characteristic of the dance that defines its style--thus defining its own collective movement distinct from another.
So, we can say that the International Standard is considerably more STAID, and by extension, its movements less grandiose.
While American Smooth is considerably more FLAMBOYANT--one of the reasons for the side-by-side sweeping movements in largesse.
Int'l Latin conveys a sharper look than its more rounded and softer cousin Rhythm.
Clearly, the reason for straight-leg and bent-leg movements.

So, IMO, it is not the movement that necessarily differentiates one from another.
Rather, it is the purpose behind the movement that defines the style.

Just another perspective,


m
Interesting view.

[DancePoet]

Yes, but I think we would all agree that there are concepts and movements in Smooth that are very much like Latin, and I don't think anyone would argue that the Latin technique is identical to the Standard technique.
Interesting perspective. Gosh, everytime I turn around I find something new and fresh, that poses more curiosity and a desire to learn more. :cool:

[DancePoet]

Also I do not EVER consider that my open work or connections in smooth are anything remotely like latin connections. The methods behind creating shape and movement across space are very different and cannot be compared shapes and movements in place...
So was Joe just cracking a joke?

Hmmm ...

[DancePoet]

These are trade secrets, my friend ;)

Sure, there are dancers that simply use Latin-type connections for their open work, but for really high quality smooth, you'll actually find that the preferred connection should feel much like you would want it to in closed position standard, especially due to what part of the foot is being used to enter and leave the end of the line.
Thanks for sharing. :D

[Chris Stratton]

Not really; for example, movement in an American step might put the follow into an open opsition, rather than a heel turn. It's quite a compliment to be asked of you know a specific technique, rather than just assume that 'it's social dance 101'. And' it makes the choice of dance by the lead a completely different thing, depending on the follow's knowledge, understanding, and such.

Except that you don't have to ask anything - you can figure out what your partner is capable of as you go along, and adjust accordingly. You don't have to stick to a single syllabus in social dancing - you can branch out in whatever directions seem to work, and try to remember not to go in the ones that aren't seeming to work. Within a more or less closed hold, its really all one pool of possibilities anyway.

If that happens in a social and the lead gets the 'I'm confused by the question' or 'Humph, whatever, I follow' then you know to immediately revert to basic push and pull social. YOU are the loser here, as you miss out on higher level dancing (hopefully LOL)....

You never revert to push and pull, with anyone. You may revert to something fairly basic, but you can usually tell from how someone dances that if you've underestimated them. The one exception - people used to doing things they aren't really capable of may murder the basics yet complain that you aren't doing anything more interesting.

[Larinda McRaven]

Well if we are going to get incredibly technical about connections then I would wipe the slate clean and say that a connection is simply a connection regardless of what music is playing or what style you "voice" that you are dancing.

So then yes, a latin connection is not really any different than a smooth connection, in that we stand apart and hold hands (or facing the same way, or whatever configuration you can concieve). But the similarities end there when you consider what is being lead.

To lead me through an underarm turn in waltz requires so incredibly different actions compared to an underarm turn in rumba. The shape that each partner has during the execution of waltz is different than rumba, the fact that one is progressing across space vs one turning relatively in spot, one has body and leg rise - the other does not, one is swaying - the other does not, heels vs toes... the differences are numerous. So the way things are lead is inumerably different.

I guess when it comes down to it a connection is simply a connection, the intent behind it changes. But then I would not say that smooth uses "latin" connections... I would simply remove all references to a particular style and simply say that smooth uses connections.

[Joe]

...that Standard doesn't.

[saludas]

Except that you don't have to ask anything - you can figure out what your partner is capable of as you go along, and adjust accordingly. You don't have to stick to a single syllabus in social dancing - you can branch out in whatever directions seem to work, and try to remember not to go in the ones that aren't seeming to work. Within a more or less closed hold, its really all one pool of possibilities anyway.



You never revert to push and pull, with anyone. You may revert to something fairly basic, but you can usually tell from how someone dances that if you've underestimated them. The one exception - people used to doing things they aren't really capable of may murder the basics yet complain that you aren't doing anything more interesting.

Obviously my sarcasm is misinterpreted as actually real advice LOL.

[Chris Stratton]

To lead me through an underarm turn in waltz requires so incredibly different actions compared to an underarm turn in rumba. The shape that each partner has during the execution of waltz is different than rumba, the fact that one is progressing across space vs one turning relatively in spot, one has body and leg rise - the other does not, one is swaying - the other does not, heels vs toes... the differences are numerous. So the way things are lead is inumerably different.

Well, yes - this is an example of a smooth figure derived from swing-waltz movement. It's the "other stuff" where a more latin style of connection has been alleged by some teachers to apply.

[Larinda McRaven]

Well all I can say is that a really good ten dance couple from another country I was hanging out with one time was attempting some very American style choreography for a showdance. And they asked me to step in and feel what they were trying to accomplish. When I did the ladies part the guys jaw dropped and he said "Oh... :shock: that is totally different". So with all of his 20 years of expert competitive latin training he wan't even close to what I would want and need to feel to get me through my movements. It really is not the same thing, it doesn't feel the same, it doesn't act the same, there are different principles and purposes behind why and how you would ask me to move.

[Josh]

To get a true perspective (and not the American-centric view that pervades the US thanx to our twangy president - oops, that's another topic)

Americans have ALWAYS had an American-centric view of the world--where have you been?? Haven't we ALWAYS felt the need to police the world? I'm not supporting or putting down anyone--just saying that it has always been this way, and has been promoted by nearly every president, not just the current one.

Back to topic:

So which international standard is more prevalent-- ISTD or IDSF ? I can't seem to get to the syllabus from either of their web pages (ISTD is being updated it says, and can't find a link on IDSF).

In learning American style, which of the 4 above-mentioned syllabi is the most common? In other words, which should I be giving more attention to?

[Chris Stratton]

So which international standard is more prevalent-- ISTD or IDSF ? I can't seem to get to the syllabus from either of their web pages (ISTD is being updated it says, and can't find a link on IDSF).

ISTD is a teaching organization and has a syllabus (try the USISTD site if the main one isn't working).

IDSF is an open competition organization, so it does not publish a syllabus.

The non-ISTD organization you might have been thinking about is the IDTA (international dance teacher's association, with a syllabus based on the Guy Howard book rather than the Alex Moore one adopted by the ISTD)

[jon]

Americans have ALWAYS had an American-centric view of the world--where have you been?? Haven't we ALWAYS felt the need to police the world?

No. America was traditionally isolationist and tried to avoid foreign entanglements throughout most of its history, aside from our own backyard (n.b. "Monroe Doctrine"). That gradually changed starting in the late 1800s, but we only became a hegemonic power after emerging as the one undisputed winner of WW II, followed closely by entering into Kennan's strategy of containment during the Cold War. Call it about 20% of our history.

One of the worst reasons to do American Style, was given to me at the beginning - 'you should learn American Style to dance with others at socials'.

If your motivation for dancing doesn't include social dancing, that would indeed be a bad reason. Most people seem to learn to dance in order to dance with other people, though, so learning to dance the predominant style makes all kinds of sense for them.

[alemana]

No. America was traditionally isolationist and tried to avoid foreign entanglements throughout most of its history, aside from our own backyard (n.b. "Monroe Doctrine"). That gradually changed starting in the late 1800s, but we only became a hegemonic power after emerging as the one undisputed winner of WW II, followed closely by entering into Kennan's strategy of containment during the Cold War. Call it about 20% of our history.





No. Isolationism and "America-centrism" are NOT mutually exclusive. In fact, the former enables the latter.

But, we won't talk about that more cuz we'll get our wrists slapped. Back to the topic!

*waits for the ruler*

[Josh]

No. America was traditionally isolationist and tried to avoid foreign entanglements throughout most of its history, aside from our own backyard (n.b. "Monroe Doctrine"). That gradually changed starting in the late 1800s, but we only became a hegemonic power after emerging as the one undisputed winner of WW II, followed closely by entering into Kennan's strategy of containment during the Cold War. Call it about 20% of our history.

Thanks for that history lesson, brilliant. So I'll rephrase--America has policed the world for as long as most people living today can remember.

[dTas]

Well all I can say is that a really good ten dance couple from another country I was hanging out with one time was attempting some very American style choreography for a showdance. And they asked me to step in and feel what they were trying to accomplish. When I did the ladies part the guys jaw dropped and he said "Oh... :shock: that is totally different". So with all of his 20 years of expert competitive latin training he wan't even close to what I would want and need to feel to get me through my movements. It really is not the same thing, it doesn't feel the same, it doesn't act the same, there are different principles and purposes behind why and how you would ask me to move.

i agree

[Fretful_Porpentine]

Ok quick question....

Are the basic techniques of American style (e.g. Cuban motion, arm styling, etc.) the same in International?

[Indiana_Jay]

This raises a similar question that I have. Are Latin and Rhytm more similar to each other than are Standard and Smooth?

[SDsalsaguy]

I wish I had time to fully explain what I mean but, in my mind, no... smooth and standard are more alike than latin and rhythm -- in how they should be danced if not always in how they are.

Keep in mind that smooth is exactly the same as standard in closed frame, and that same technique is meant to be retained out of frame as well, just with the embelishments possible with free arms and in solo work.

Latin, on the other hand, is meant to have a straight legged arival in cha and rhumba, whereas rhythm calls for a flexed leg. The basic principles of cuban action, etc., are still the same, but the technique -- when executed by experts in each -- is markedly different (and not only as a result of this one difference).

I'm sure others will disagree since, in the end, good dancing is still good dancing but, for my two cents, good latin and rhythm are less simmilar at the level of basic technique than are good standard and smooth.

[Fretful_Porpentine]

Whoa! First international class!
Oh my God! That whole stepping onto a straight leg thing is SO HARD! Which is hilarious, considering that my American coach spent ages trying to get me to step onto a bent leg......figures, eh? I felt like Latin takes so much control and precision....much more than American, but I think that may be because of the instructor, not just the style. Not sure about that though. I feel like I had to be in complete control and that I couldn't use any momentum whatsoever. Every step had to be completely deliberate. It was hard. I think I've been relying too much on momentum and my partner to get me through steps. Anyway, cool. It's a good challenge.

[mamboqueen]

heh heh....have you done I rumba yet? you'll feel it in your calves in the beginning. Yup...definitely more control required...at least for rumba. Samba is somewhat a relief as you get to flex the knees a bit more.

[RIdancer82]

I felt like Latin takes so much control and precision....much more than American, but I think that may be because of the instructor, not just the style. Not sure about that though. I feel like I had to be in complete control and that I couldn't use any momentum whatsoever. Every step had to be completely deliberate. It was hard. I think I've been relying too much on momentum and my partner to get me through steps.

They both require alot of control.... it's just the type of movement that's being controled that's different. I think that in the beginning it was just easier to fake that control in rhythm.... or maybe so I thought??? I don't know, I still have alot to learn.....

[RIdancer82]

heh heh....have you done I rumba yet? you'll feel it in your calves in the beginning.

and your toes, and your feet, and your whole legs.....actually almost everywhere, lol

[latingal]

Whoa! First international class!
Oh my God! That whole stepping onto a straight leg thing is SO HARD! Which is hilarious, considering that my American coach spent ages trying to get me to step onto a bent leg......

Hey FP, my international latin teacher (during our regularly scheduled break from competition) decided to have some fun and teach me the rhythm dances. Oh my god, talk about hilarious - yes....for the life of me I couldn't step on a bent leg!

What fun it would've been to have a split screen view of the two of us...what a scream....

[Keelzorz]

To me, it almost seems like rhythm and latin just develop in opposite directions. Rhythm beings by focusing on steps and patterns, and because of that, a "looser" technique is formed. As the dancer progresses, that technique is tightened, but it keeps the same character. Latin begins by focusing on technique, especially the rigidity of the body and necessity of connection. Then, there is the addition of steps and patterns, but these take a backseat to the continuation of proper technique.

My two cents...I've heard too many posts that American is fake-able or easier. Yes, it was designed to be easier and possibly more fun to learn (and where's the harm in fun?) but it doesnt mean the judging is easier or the competition in american events is softer, it's just aimed at different goals.

It's similar in Smooth/Standard. They just require different skillsets - step patterns or rigid technique. However, the debate of which is "easier", or which is downhill form the other, isn't quite as heated. Standard teaches you superb frame and control, which is hugely useful in smooth, especially syllabus closed work. Smooth teaches you partnership and character, which can be applied just as easily to standard, just without the showy openwork. They are definatly closer cousins than Rhythm/Latin.

[RIdancer82]

My two cents...I've heard too many posts that American is fake-able or easier. Yes, it was designed to be easier and possibly more fun to learn (and where's the harm in fun?) but it doesnt mean the judging is easier or the competition in american events is softer, it's just aimed at different goals.

didn't mean to make it sounds like I thought the judging was easier.... it's not. but.... there isn't as much competition in american style out there so someone can get much further "faking it" than they can in international. Also, it is much more obvious when a competitor fails to arrive on a straight leg in latin (because of the sharpness) over the timing of the straightening in rhythm.

[mamboqueen]

Actually, I think the judging is harder. A lot of international judges are not remotely familiar with rythym dancing and don't really know quite what they're looking at/for. Plus, you'll see people land on a bent leg, a straight leg, a slightly flexed leg....there is no real uniformity. And of course, there's the latin couples who do latin to rythym.....

[saludas]

Actually, I think the judging is harder. A lot of international judges are not remotely familiar with rythym dancing and don't really know quite what they're looking at/for. Plus, you'll see people land on a bent leg, a straight leg, a slightly flexed leg....there is no real uniformity. And of course, there's the latin couples who do latin to rythym.....

I don't think any judge traveling the US comp circuit is unfamiliar with Rhythm. And they quickly learn once the get 'on the scene'.

[HCMikeC]

Actually, I think the judging is harder. A lot of international judges are not remotely familiar with rythym dancing and don't really know quite what they're looking at/for. Plus, you'll see people land on a bent leg, a straight leg, a slightly flexed leg....there is no real uniformity. And of course, there's the latin couples who do latin to rythym.....

I totally agree with you, mambo. Personally, I am affiliated with AM and have been told by some in the competitive circle that some judges may not necessarily know that syllabus (or one like Fred Astaire). In many competitions (if I reach a final) I ALWAYS will have half of my marks be 1-3 and half be like 6-8. This happens without fail at almost every comp. I wonder if this also has to do with international judges judging American styles, as you mentioned.

[mamboqueen]

when I was preparing to do silver rythym at a comp a little over a year ago, a coach came in who is a national champ (not in rythym...but he knows it) and essentially told me "anything goes." i didn't really know how to take it, but I can tell you that the steps he gave me to do aren't really on any syllabus and i did them without penalty. my new teacher won't add them to the repetoire, though, because he got called on a non-syllabus move once and won't do that again.

[fascination]

in my first foray into rhythym, this is exactly what happened...a gross disparity in judges perspective and a stron correltation to the judges exposure to latin

[HCMikeC]

in my first foray into rhythym, this is exactly what happened...a gross disparity in judges perspective and a stron correltation to the judges exposure to latin

Well at least I am not alone. All I can do is keep going out there and try to change their opinions.

[Chris Stratton]

in my first foray into rhythym, this is exactly what happened...a gross disparity in judges perspective and a stron correltation to the judges exposure to latin

First, I don't think it's really a syllabus issue, because it is not the job of the ordinary judge to enforce syllabus by marking you down. If they notice a violation and wish to take action, that should be reported seperately - a good judge who wanted to take action would still mark you based on your dancing despite the infraction, and write a seperate note or speak with the chair of judges about the syllabus issue.

In terms of the exposure to latin issue: one thing that can be very obvious when comparing latin couples to rhythm couples without latin competition exposure, and similarly standard couples to smooth couples without high level standard experience, is the difference in precision. A strong international style competitor will not do anything approximately - every action is extremely precise. In contrast, if you watch many of the amercian style couples, you can see how the focus of their attention shifts - if they are doing something complicated with their arms, their feet become less intentional since all of their attention is elsewhere. Not everyone has that problem of course, but you do see it more in the american styles, due to some combination of the stronger couples tending to do international style instead, and of the american style material potentially having more potential distractions (smooth vs standard).

Certainly judges are human and will carry the biases of the familiar into the unfamiliar. But that is not the only reason an international style judge might prefer that style of dancing masquerading in an american style event. The issues of precision may play a role as well - put a latin couple into a rhythm event, and even if they are not doing the "right thing" they may be doing it so much more precisely than those with a more traditional idea of rhythm but poorer execution, that it's extremely hard not to prefer it. It is easier to create a superficially precise look with straight legs than bent ones, but that's a somewhat superficial detail - a really strong rhythm couple would find a way of showing enough precision to convince a fair fraction of observers without rhythm exposure.

[saludas]

when I was preparing to do silver rythym at a comp a little over a year ago, a coach came in who is a national champ (not in rythym...but he knows it) and essentially told me "anything goes." i didn't really know how to take it, but I can tell you that the steps he gave me to do aren't really on any syllabus and i did them without penalty. my new teacher won't add them to the repetoire, though, because he got called on a non-syllabus move once and won't do that again.

Remember, judges do not invigilate - they are only there to judge how good the couples look against each other. The invigilator at the comp is the person who looks for (for example) syllabus infractions, and if they don't see it, it didn't happen.

Judges tend to look kindlier to more "Latin-esque" and "Standard-esque" dancing probably because it is more 'readable'. Plus, there are unfortunately many syllabi in American style - every chain has a secret syllabus, and that means that 'anything goes' (to quote another poster).

Int'l syllabus is not so politically and economically tied to the chain studio system, so having one syllabus is not a 'competitive disadvantage' to the local AM or Fred... and therefore is easier to invigilate.

[Purr]

Regarding rhythm and Latin, it has a different look, but the distinction is becoming blurry. Cha cha is cha cha no matter how you cut it. As for technique, the principles are the same - maintaining your posture; using your legs and feet, in particular having your weight on the standing leg; continuity of body movement; partnering; and somewhere in all this, steps. As for execution of technique, Latin allows less room for error than rhythm; precision and sharpness of body movement is key. Certainly exposure to Latin is a good learning tool.

[Chris Stratton]

Judges tend to look kindlier to more "Latin-esque" and "Standard-esque" dancing probably because it is more 'readable'. Plus, there are unfortunately many syllabi in American style - every chain has a secret syllabus, and that means that 'anything goes' (to quote another poster).

Anything goes in terms of material, because in most of the levels material really doesn't matter at all when you have a decent judge watching - all that matters is execution. What many of the American style competitors loose sight of behind the diversity of material is that there's really much less variation in the standard for quality of execution, and a comparison to that is fairly easy no matter what material you are dancing.

[gusmahler]

This thread has been focusing on competition. I'm a beginner who was taught cha cha at an American studio. But I'm thinking of switching to a studio that is mainly International.

Can an American cha cha dancer social dance with an international cha cha dancer?

[saludas]

This thread has been focusing on competition. I'm a beginner who was taught cha cha at an American studio. But I'm thinking of switching to a studio that is mainly International.

Can an American cha cha dancer social dance with an international cha cha dancer?

Sure.

[Keelzorz]

Not so much. The leads for the american new yorker, spot turns, chase, etc don't exactly match the leads for the fan, hip twist, alemana, hockey stick. I'm not sure if you're a leader or a follower, gusmahler, so for total political correctness....an american lead will most likely confuse an international follower, and an international lead will most likely lose a american follower, at beginner social levels. (I'm not even mentioning technique!)

[lynn]

I started cha cha in a studio that focuses on international (but they also have some american material thrown in to cater for people who focus on social). We did do new yorker, spot turns, chase but also covered fan/hockey stick/hip tiwst/alemana - so i guess it really depends on the material is presented??

[Purr]

Can an American cha cha dancer social dance with an international cha cha dancer?

Yes. Been there, done that.

[RIdancer82]

Not so much. The leads for the american new yorker, spot turns, chase, etc don't exactly match the leads for the fan, hip twist, alemana, hockey stick. I'm not sure if you're a leader or a follower, gusmahler, so for total political correctness....an american lead will most likely confuse an international follower, and an international lead will most likely lose a american follower, at beginner social levels. (I'm not even mentioning technique!)

there shouldn't be any problem at all following all the similar moves between the 2 styles. New Yorkers, and spot (apart) turns use the same lead in american or international. There's an american version of the fan, which is led almost the same way and shouldn't cause difficulty. To a beginner, the alemana will feel the same as an arch turn.

This is all because the fundamental concept of lead and follow does not change between the two styles. Connection is still connection and most beginners don't notice the slight differences in the leads.

[ACtenDance]

I think the only difficulties arise because of weird variations that are often taught in group classes that can be led (or followed), but not by many of the people that are doing them... If you stick to the basics, there usually isn't much trouble dancing with a partner of a different style (ha, that sounds weird to me). I'm an international style dancer, but for goodness sakes, I rarely find social dancers that know international around here. I just pick up on what the other guys like to lead and everything's dandy.

[Purr]

there shouldn't be any problem at all following all the similar moves between the 2 styles. New Yorkers, and spot (apart) turns use the same lead in american or international. There's an american version of the fan, which is led almost the same way and shouldn't cause difficulty. To a beginner, the alemana will feel the same as an arch turn.

This is all because the fundamental concept of lead and follow does not change between the two styles. Connection is still connection and most beginners don't notice the slight differences in the leads.

Exactly.

[HCMikeC]

This may be a tired question, but I have never really heard discussion about it.

How come, when dancers get to the gold/advanced/open levels, there are far more international dancers (both standard and latin) than American dancers. It seems as if the numbers are pretty equal up to maybe intermediate/silver levels, and then the drop off is dramatic. Are there just more studios that focus on international, or are the international dances more relevant in the amateur competition ciruit?

[PureAbsurd]

I often go to dance swing and salsa, and I've noticed an interesting thing: lindy hop dancers (who are used to step-step-triple step sequencing) often can follow cha cha good enough to make the dance look cha cha like. It's much harder to express-train a salsa dancer who had no experience with this dance.
But if I dance with a person who had some instructions in past (in 90% cases it would be American style), we can enjoy rather decent cha.

[Chris Stratton]

This may be a tired question, but I have never really heard discussion about it.

How come, when dancers get to the gold/advanced/open levels, there are far more international dancers (both standard and latin) than American dancers. It seems as if the numbers are pretty equal up to maybe intermediate/silver levels, and then the drop off is dramatic. Are there just more studios that focus on international, or are the international dances more relevant in the amateur competition ciruit?

The international style dances are far more popular in the amateur competition, yes.

- American style has very limited following outside the US

- Immigrants are a major force in US ballroom, both amateur and professional. Those who arrived with some knowledge of dance are unlikely to study american style at all, unless to work with pro-am students.

- High level coaching is far more readily available in international style. Almost all professional smooth couples work with an international style coach for technique.

- The more your learn about one style, the more you realize how difficult it will be to do two or four at the level of quality you are starting to demand of yourself. International style material has traditionally been simpler, and as a result is more compatible with a desire to concentrate your attenton on mastering key concepts.

- Specialization often goes gets even finer: many of the nationally known youth couples do international 10 dance, but as they move into the top ranks of adult division, most will cut back and concentrate on only standard or only latin, though there is an exception every now and then.

[cornutt]

Judges tend to look kindlier to more "Latin-esque" and "Standard-esque" dancing probably because it is more 'readable'. Plus, there are unfortunately many syllabi in American style - every chain has a secret syllabus, and that means that 'anything goes' (to quote another poster).


Your comment about the plethora of syllabi in American is certainly true. However, I wonder: if the rhythm rumba and cha-cha heats degenerate into being just another set of Latin heats, and couples who work hard at perfecting American rumba and cha-cha consistently get beat by couples that are just repeating their Latin routines, it seems to me that this is going to lead to those dances disappearing from American style. (Or perhaps getting mutated into something unrecognizable.) After all, if it winds up just being a duplicate event, then what's the point? It might force American style, at least at the competitive level, to focus more on the dances that aren't duplicated in Latin. American rumba would probably survive at a social level because it's a good dance for beginners, but I can see American cha-cha becoming rarely danced, and being supplanted by salsa. Personally, I think this would be unfortunate, but I see the point of the competitors who don't think it's worth the trouble. I could see the standard set of competitive rhythm dances evolving into:

* ECS (or maybe lindy)
* WCS
* Salsa
* Bolero
* Hustle (or maybe Carolina shag)
* Mambo (or maybe meringue, blah)

[RIdancer82]

I could see the standard set of competitive rhythm dances evolving into:



* ECS (or maybe lindy)
* WCS
* Salsa
* Bolero
* Hustle (or maybe Carolina shag)
* Mambo (or maybe meringue, blah)

You do realize that salsa and mambo are more duplicates of each other than International and American rumba.....

[Twilight_Elena]

From what I've generally gathered, if you want to be serious in the competitive circuit, you gotta do International. Over here, doing American in competitions is almost laughable. American= social and International=competitive.
Note: Not trying to say that American style competitors are not serious dancers. Just saying that it's what everybody thinks, and I think they do have a point.
Note 2: I do American, so it's not some sort of International dancer snobbery or anything.
Note 3: Not that International dancers are snob.
I think that will save any misunderstandings. ;)

Twilight Elena

[cornutt]

You do realize that salsa and mambo are more duplicates of each other than International and American rumba.....

I don't see them that way. Yes, the basics of the two are the same except for the beat that you start on. But stylistically, they are quite different.

[RIdancer82]

I don't see them that way. Yes, the basics of the two are the same except for the beat that you start on. But stylistically, they are quite different.

and so are International and american rumba (when danced correctly)

I'm just saying that salsa and mambo aren't any more different than the other two.

[HCMikeC]

From what I've generally gathered, if you want to be serious in the competitive circuit, you gotta do International. Over here, doing American in competitions is almost laughable. American= social and International=competitive.
Note: Not trying to say that American style competitors are not serious dancers. Just saying that it's what everybody thinks, and I think they do have a point.
Note 2: I do American, so it's not some sort of International dancer snobbery or anything.
Note 3: Not that International dancers are snob.
I think that will save any misunderstandings. ;)

Twilight Elena

Lot of flip flopping going on in your statement.

As a beginner, I was only exposed to American, so that is what I learned.

I am planning to learn some latin, maybe this summer.

And I am DEFINITELY serious about my dancing. I would never knock people for only dancing American.

[Twilight_Elena]

Lot of flip flopping going on in your statement.

As a beginner, I was only exposed to American, so that is what I learned.

I am planning to learn some latin, maybe this summer.

And I am DEFINITELY serious about my dancing. I would never knock people for only dancing American.

I wasn't clear enough, admittedly. Lewt me try that again.
In my very humble opinion, if you want to do competitions, International is the way to go, especially in Latin/Rhythm. Sure you can compete in Rhythm. But Rhythm is, in my head, designed to be a social style, so competing in a social style is not what I would do.
If a beginner dancer came to me and told me s/he wanted to do competitive ballroom, I'd suggest International style. Maybe I'm way off.

Twilight Elena

[HCMikeC]

I wasn't clear enough, admittedly. Lewt me try that again.
In my very humble opinion, if you want to do competitions, International is the way to go, especially in Latin/Rhythm. Sure you can compete in Rhythm. But Rhythm is, in my head, designed to be a social style, so competing in a social style is not what I would do.
If a beginner dancer came to me and told me s/he wanted to do competitive ballroom, I'd suggest International style. Maybe I'm way off.

Twilight Elena

I do understand your points. I agree that the competition circuit is very international-centric, which is fine. I won't stop competing in American just because it may be a social dance, however. I enjoy American very much.

[mamboqueen]

Here's my 2 cents. And you can take my very limited experience (silver level in both L&R) into account. Hopefully some more advanced people will chime in.

American style dance is perfectly suitable to do in competitions here in the states. There are PLENTY of people who do it and do it exceedingly well. To suggest that International is the better route does a big disservice to American style dancing. The only way American style will reach the high echelons of International is if more people do it and do it well.

Having said that....I think it is extremely helpful to have some latin training (and as others have suggested, but I can't speak to, standard) to supplement your American style. Does it mean that someone who has no International training can't do well? I just think that after doing R for my first two years, and L for the next year, my R is much better as a result.

Bottom line is that you should do what you LIKE to do and what makes you happy. You shouldn't do International just because everyone else does or it gets the most respect. The American style dances probably just need more time to evolve into something the whole world respects and embraces as much as International style.

[saludas]

Your comment about the plethora of syllabi in American is certainly true. However, I wonder: if the rhythm rumba and cha-cha heats degenerate into being just another set of Latin heats, and couples who work hard at perfecting American rumba and cha-cha consistently get beat by couples that are just repeating their Latin routines, it seems to me that this is going to lead to those dances disappearing from American style. (Or perhaps getting mutated into something unrecognizable.) After all, if it winds up just being a duplicate event, then what's the point? It might force American style, at least at the competitive level, to focus more on the dances that aren't duplicated in Latin. American rumba would probably survive at a social level because it's a good dance for beginners, but I can see American cha-cha becoming rarely danced, and being supplanted by salsa. Personally, I think this would be unfortunate, but I see the point of the competitors who don't think it's worth the trouble. I could see the standard set of competitive rhythm dances evolving into:

* ECS (or maybe lindy)
* WCS
* Salsa
* Bolero
* Hustle (or maybe Carolina shag)
* Mambo (or maybe meringue, blah)

I can only see cha cha and rhumba being slightly 'interchangeable' in Am vs. Int'l - Paso, Samba, and Jive are vastly different than Mambo, Bolero, and Swing (except perhaps at beginner syllabus level, of course).

Remember, Int'l competition is made to show off five very different expressions and movements: Cha Cha Cha is fast and bright, Rhumba is langourus and full, Samba is big movement and syncopation, Paso is almost Tango-ish in it's sharpness, and Jive is not only hi speed and sharp, but is always placed at the end of the 5 dances as it shows stamina (or lack of). Your listing of "American" dances has a commonality of being sorta from America, but not much diversity in tempi, style, or movement.

[saludas]

Lot of flip flopping going on in your statement.

As a beginner, I was only exposed to American, so that is what I learned.

I am planning to learn some latin, maybe this summer.

And I am DEFINITELY serious about my dancing. I would never knock people for only dancing American.

I disagree. As a dancer who has not learned any Latin, you really (with all due respect) have no clue as to what is being talked about... you can hopefully SEE a difference, but actually studying the technique would show you a vast difference.

[HCMikeC]

I disagree. As a beginner who has not learned any Latin, you really (with all due respect) have no clue as to what is being talked about... you can hopefully SEE a difference, but actually studying the technique would show you a vast difference.

I never said I knew anything about latin....or are you making a general statement not directed at me?

I also said I WAS a beginner at one point. I have been dancing for 6 years now..

[Twilight_Elena]

I enjoy American very much.

Me too!! :D I'm going to be teaching American, too, in about 6 months. But if I decide to do competitions, I'll turn to International. My opinion, always.

Twilight Elena

[Keelzorz]

As a beginner, I was only exposed to American, so that is what I learned.

I am planning to learn some latin, maybe this summer.

And I am DEFINITELY serious about my dancing. I would never knock people for only dancing American.
I disagree. As a beginner who has not learned any Latin, you really (with all due respect) have no clue as to what is being talked about... you can hopefully SEE a difference, but actually studying the technique would show you a vast difference.

Saludas, you need to back down. Over and over again you bash people for their lack of knowledge, or remind them, not so gently, that they are beginners and it's supposed to look bad. Everybody has opinions and that's fine(that's why we're all here) but it doesn't mean yours are correct, and that doesnt give you the right to insult people's knowledge

I may not be a mod, but I think you're out of line here.

[cornutt]

and so are International and american rumba (when danced correctly)


Point taken, but that brings us back to the issue I was talking about... Latin dancers entering rhythm rumba heats, dancing it Latin style, and getting placed higher than couples who dance the rhythm style correctly. I'm saying that if that trend accelerates, eventually American style dancers will decide that there's no point in mastering those dances, and they will disappear from the American style syllabus.

[saludas]

Saludas, you need to back down. Over and over again you bash people for their lack of knowledge, or remind them, not so gently, that they are beginners and it's supposed to look bad. Everybody has opinions and that's fine(that's why we're all here) but it doesn't mean yours are correct, and that doesnt give you the right to insult people's knowledge

I may not be a mod, but I think you're out of line here.


Certainly I will, altho I did preface my comment with a qualifier. I do, however, think that having never taken even one lesson in Latin, this poster cannot intelligently comment on the results of a lesson.

[saludas]

I never said I knew anything about latin....or are you making a general statement not directed at me?

I also said I WAS a beginner at one point. I have been dancing for 6 years now..

Sorry - it was a little obscure, and I assumed. I changed my post to reflect that. Your post only said that as a beginner... yada yada. it never told me of your 6 years..... It never said you were a beginner 'at some point'... just that as a beginnerr.

[RIdancer82]

Point taken, but that brings us back to the issue I was talking about... Latin dancers entering rhythm rumba heats, dancing it Latin style, and getting placed higher than couples who dance the rhythm style correctly. I'm saying that if that trend accelerates, eventually American style dancers will decide that there's no point in mastering those dances, and they will disappear from the American style syllabus.

I guess the core of that issue is this..... While the dancers should not be dancing international style in american (as that is like dancing samba in mambo, yes I know that is a slight exageration, but it's just meant to prove a point), there must be something wrong with the judges who are placing them. How a judge can ethically mark a couple dancing the wrong style higher than a couple dancing the correct one is beyond me. It's like marking couples who are blantantly offbeat instead of other couples who are on beat.

In the scenario you mention, it is not only the dancers, but also the judges who are at fault. If I was organizing the competition, I would think twice about asking those same judges to judge again the next year and if nothing else I would definately speak with them regarding that issue.

[HCMikeC]

Sorry - it was a little obscure, and I assumed. I changed my post to reflect that. Your post only said that as a beginner... yada yada. it never told me of your 6 years..... It never said you were a beginner 'at some point'... just that as a beginnerr.

I said "as a beginner, i WAS......" Past tense.

[HCMikeC]

Certainly I will, altho I did preface my comment with a qualifier. I do, however, think that having never taken even one lesson in Latin, this poster cannot intelligently comment on the results of a lesson.

I never commented on the results of a latin lesson. I'm very confused.

TGIF to all.

[pygmalion]

I guess the core of that issue is this..... While the dancers should not be dancing international style in american (as that is like dancing samba in mambo, yes I know that is a slight exageration, but it's just meant to prove a point), there must be something wrong with the judges who are placing them. How a judge can ethically mark a couple dancing the wrong style higher than a couple dancing the correct one is beyond me. It's like marking couples who are blantantly offbeat instead of other couples who are on beat.

I agree. Clearly, the judges know what's going on. So why is dancing the wrong style not an automatic disqualifier? I'm confused.

[pygmalion]

Me too!! :D I'm going to be teaching American, too, in about 6 months. But if I decide to do competitions, I'll turn to International. My opinion, always.

Twilight Elena

The studios in Greece teach American? :?

[saludas]

I said "as a beginner, i WAS......" Past tense.

Certainly, and sorry I misunderstood, but i hope you see that it was a little ambiguous in context....

[mamboqueen]

I agree. Clearly, the judges know what's going on. So why is dancing the wrong style not an automatic disqualifier? I'm confused.


Well, I'm not sure it's *that* blatant all the time. Are you going to toss someone because they landed on a straight leg rather than a bent one (watch Tony & Elena's OSB performance --> they're going to disqualify her straight leg usage??? I doubt it....). Part of the problem is that most of the judges watching are latin/standard teachers/judges....so unless you get more rythym judges judging rythym, this is going to be the end result.

[pygmalion]

Part of the problem is that most of the judges watching are latin/standard teachers/judges....so unless you get more rythym judges judging rythym, this is going to be the end result.

Ah. :cool:

[wyllo]

I agree. Clearly, the judges know what's going on. So why is dancing the wrong style not an automatic disqualifier? I'm confused.

This confuses me also and not just at the champ level. At the last competition I went to the couple who won bronze American V. Waltz were an international couple who were dancing only natural and reverse turns. I am all for a couple with good, solid basics doing two steps beating a mediocre couple doing ten steps, but I did not see a noticeable difference in technique between this couple and the second and third place couple (maybe the judges did -- that is their job after all!).

But if all things are equal, shouldn't the couple who is trying to express the character of the dance and its style win?

[HCMikeC]

Well, I'm not sure it's *that* blatant all the time. Are you going to toss someone because they landed on a straight leg rather than a bent one (watch Tony & Elena's OSB performance --> they're going to disqualify her straight leg usage??? I doubt it....). Part of the problem is that most of the judges watching are latin/standard teachers/judges....so unless you get more rythym judges judging rythym, this is going to be the end result.

I tend to agree. The judges with whom I am familiar that are more American focused seem to mark me higher than those that I know are primarily latin focused. I know judging is subjective, but sometimes the marks very clearly reflect this schism of sorts.

[RIdancer82]

Well, I'm not sure it's *that* blatant all the time. Are you going to toss someone because they landed on a straight leg rather than a bent one (watch Tony & Elena's OSB performance --> they're going to disqualify her straight leg usage??? I doubt it....). Part of the problem is that most of the judges watching are latin/standard teachers/judges....so unless you get more rythym judges judging rythym, this is going to be the end result.

It's not always that blatant...but when you see a couple dancing the basic step of international rumba in american... that is obvious. As is when you see fan & hockey stick combinations (with the international style fan, not the american). There are other steps and combinations as well that are strictly international. It's easier to pick out the steps rather than the technique, but if you see a couple consistantly arriving on a straight leg in rhythm, then regardless of whether you're sure they're dancing international style or not, the technique is not correct and a judge should recognize that.

[saludas]

This confuses me also and not just at the champ level. At the last competition I went to the couple who won bronze American V. Waltz were an international couple who were dancing only natural and reverse turns. I am all for a couple with good, solid basics doing two steps beating a mediocre couple doing ten steps, but I did not see a noticeable difference in technique between this couple and the second and third place couple (maybe the judges did -- that is their job after all!).

But if all things are equal, shouldn't the couple who is trying to express the character of the dance and its style win?

Excuse my ignorance, but for the purposes of comparison, aren't Natural and Reverse turns in both techniques for V Waltz?

[mamboqueen]

It's not always that blatant...but when you see a couple dancing the basic step of international rumba in american... that is obvious. As is when you see fan & hockey stick combinations (with the international style fan, not the american). There are other steps and combinations as well that are strictly international. It's easier to pick out the steps rather than the technique, but if you see a couple consistantly arriving on a straight leg in rhythm, then regardless of whether you're sure they're dancing international style or not, the technique is not correct and a judge should recognize that.


I agree...and it's not really fair. I don't want to see rythym turning into latin myself....to me, it kills the essence of the dances. It's just unfortunately happening...and not sure what, if anything, can or will be done about it...unless you have rythym and smooth purists judging those events.

[RIdancer82]

This confuses me also and not just at the champ level. At the last competition I went to the couple who won bronze American V. Waltz were an international couple who were dancing only natural and reverse turns. I am all for a couple with good, solid basics doing two steps beating a mediocre couple doing ten steps, but I did not see a noticeable difference in technique between this couple and the second and third place couple (maybe the judges did -- that is their job after all!).

But if all things are equal, shouldn't the couple who is trying to express the character of the dance and its style win?

Well the technique in closed position between the american and the international v. waltz is the same. And also, even in silver and sometimes gold too, you will see couples do very well who don't do much more than natural and reverse turns. They place highly because they do them well. The judges often look for quality, not quantity.

Perhaps that couple was better utilizing and moving through their feet. Perhaps the connection was better and showed to the judges. There are a number of things that judges look for that are not always obvious to everyone.

[RIdancer82]

Excuse my ignorance, but for the purposes of comparison, aren't Natural and Reverse turns in both techniques for V Waltz?

yup, you are correct.

[saludas]

It's not always that blatant...but when you see a couple dancing the basic step of international rumba in american... that is obvious. As is when you see fan & hockey stick combinations (with the international style fan, not the american). There are other steps and combinations as well that are strictly international. It's easier to pick out the steps rather than the technique, but if you see a couple consistantly arriving on a straight leg in rhythm, then regardless of whether you're sure they're dancing international style or not, the technique is not correct and a judge should recognize that.

I wonder where, or at what point, or at what percentage, a judge factors in technique?

Is a judge looking at the legs or the line? Reason being, I think a judge is looking for overall dance quality.

[saludas]

Well the technique in closed position between the american and the international v. waltz is the same. And also, even in silver and sometimes gold too, you will see couples do very well who don't do much more than natural and reverse turns. They place highly because they do them well. The judges often look for quality, not quantity.

Perhaps that couple was better utilizing and moving through their feet. Perhaps the connection was better and showed to the judges. There are a number of things that judges look for that are not always obvious to everyone.

Agreed - back to the old tried and true posit that 'quality trumps quantity'.

[alemana]

since bob and julia, the standard in rhythm has changed dramatically. there will soon be a cadre of "modern" rhythm judges available (former competitors) and i think that might be one of the things that helps the style coalesce more concretely. bob was on the panel at USDC for the rhythm championship this year, i think.

[wyllo]

Excuse my ignorance, but for the purposes of comparison, aren't Natural and Reverse turns in both techniques for V Waltz?

Yes, but it seems to me that it also is important to show an understanding of what makes American style different from International, ie. showing different positions and transitions in and out of holds. I know this was only the bronze level, but it seemed odd to me that a couple could win the heat without doing any sort of basic American-only step if all other things were equal.

[DancePoet]

I don't think any judge traveling the US comp circuit is unfamiliar with Rhythm. And they quickly learn once the get 'on the scene'.
How do you mean?

[DancePoet]

when I was preparing to do silver rythym at a comp a little over a year ago, a coach came in who is a national champ (not in rythym...but he knows it) and essentially told me "anything goes." i didn't really know how to take it, but I can tell you that the steps he gave me to do aren't really on any syllabus and i did them without penalty. my new teacher won't add them to the repetoire, though, because he got called on a non-syllabus move once and won't do that again.
When you say "called" do you mean someone said it couldn't be used?

[fascination]

I think it would be an excellent time to point out...especially to newcomers....that the degree of expertise that anyone on this forum has as a dancer should not be presumed by the tone of authority with which that person speaks, present company included, but rahter by that person's public disclosure of their status in that regard, such as Larinda and other folks whose dancing reputation or status is clearly defined....otherwise, when seeking advice on this forum folks should remember that they know nothing about their source

[mamboqueen]

When you say "called" do you mean someone said it couldn't be used?


The dancer was disqualified for being out of syllabus.

[saludas]

I think it would be an excellent time to point out...especially to newcomers....that the degree of expertise that anyone on this forum has as a dancer should not be presumed by the tone of authority with which that person speaks, present company included, but rahter by that person's public disclosure of their status in that regard, such as Larinda and other folks whose dancing reputation or status is clearly defined....otherwise, when seeking advice on this forum folks should remember that they know nothing about their source

Excellent advice!! Except that 'public disclosure' and 'reputation' has never been a criteria for quality of advice - many people with high standings and high rankings can easily give terrible advice.

[Purr]

I wonder where, or at what point, or at what percentage, a judge factors in technique?

Is a judge looking at the legs or the line? Reason being, I think a judge is looking for overall dance quality.

Wouldn't a judge be looking at a couple's topline first? If the topline isn't right, then probably the footwork isn't exactly right either.

[fascination]

yes, but at least their merit as a dancer or instuctor can be followed up on ...the rest of us including myself are just folks with an opinion whose credentials cant be verified...that is all

[saludas]

How do you mean?

I think that a judge going 'on the scene' quickly learns not only the fine points of what they are watching, but through discussion and observation, sees what is considered part of the technique shown.

Remember, all, that judging does not have to include anything specific - judges do not see 'compulsoriy' steps, are not required to look at figures, etc. They only judge 'what they see'. many judges have biases, or slants, towards what they 'want to see' - one judge looks at connection as a big criteria, another at swing. There is no 'standard'.

Finally, judging is 'random' - judge A sees couple X for 6 seconds at one point in time, judge B sees them at another. 'Showing the connection' in this case can't be in play simply because judge C might have only looked at 2 couple when they were both doing a natural turn, for instance. Therefore, many coaches suggest that you not do awkward or 'brilliant' choreography in semifinals, for instance, but simpler and more accurate stuff, as a judge will not have more than a few seconds to see you and those few seconds should show high quality, not high difficulty.

Judging is very subjective....

[DancePoet]

The international style dances are far more popular in the amateur competition, yes.

- American style has very limited following outside the US

- Immigrants are a major force in US ballroom, both amateur and professional. Those who arrived with some knowledge of dance are unlikely to study american style at all, unless to work with pro-am students.

- High level coaching is far more readily available in international style. Almost all professional smooth couples work with an international style coach for technique.

- The more your learn about one style, the more you realize how difficult it will be to do two or four at the level of quality you are starting to demand of yourself. International style material has traditionally been simpler, and as a result is more compatible with a desire to concentrate your attenton on mastering key concepts.

- Specialization often goes gets even finer: many of the nationally known youth couples do international 10 dance, but as they move into the top ranks of adult division, most will cut back and concentrate on only standard or only latin, though there is an exception every now and then.
Thanks Chris for all this info! Appreciate these types of contributions very much. :D

[saludas]

Wouldn't a judge be looking at a couple's topline first? If the topline isn't right, then probably the footwork isn't exactly right either.

I've heard and experienced the exact opposite. Since topline is created thru the body, some judges are noted for looking at the footwork first.

At any rate, who can tell what and where a judge looks - that's the point...

[saludas]

yes, but at least their merit as a dancer or instuctor can be followed up on ...the rest of us including myself are just folks with an opinion whose credentials cant be verified...that is all

I agree if their opinion is relevant to their field and expertise. However, what makes this forum so good is that opinions and commentary is accepted by everyone, at every level of expertise. Keeping out comments and opinions from, for example, beginners, simply because they are inexperienced, makes for a very limited dialog. Ditto for people who are not 'experts' - otherwise, why would (for example) someone contribute to a thread like this if their was criteria of expertise or 'quality of dance' before they could opine? Would you rather have people comment based on their ranking?

And, sorry, but keeping people out because you are not happy with their opinions is not allowed anywhere...

[DancePoet]

The dancer was disqualified for being out of syllabus.
Thank you for clarifying.

[DancePoet]

Wouldn't a judge be looking at a couple's topline first? If the topline isn't right, then probably the footwork isn't exactly right either.
I was under the impression that judges look at footwork first. Hmmm.

[alemana]

I agree if their opinion is relevant to their field and expertise. However, what makes this forum so good is that opinions and commentary is accepted by everyone, at every level of expertise. Keeping out comments and opinions from, for example, beginners, simply because they are inexperienced, makes for a very limited dialog. Ditto for people who are not 'experts' - otherwise, why would (for example) someone contribute to a thread like this if their was criteria of expertise or 'quality of dance' before they could opine? Would you rather have people comment based on their ranking?

And, sorry, but keeping people out because you are not happy with their opinions is not allowed anywhere...


nobody is arguing for 'keeping people out,' so that's a bogus claim.

and it's ironic for you to make the point that it would be improper to 'keep out' or discount comments from beginners because a few posts ago you basically slapped someone you perceived as a beginner for not knowing what they were talking about. the gist of the comment was, "at your level, you really don't know bupkiss." you have done so repeatedly on this board, whilst simultaneously promulgating the appearance of your own mysterious expertise.

in sum, fascination, thank you for that important reminder.

[mamboqueen]

I was under the impression that judges look at footwork first. Hmmm.

You know, I think you'll get a different answer from every judge you talk to. I remember coming off the floor and someone telling me specifically "x" judge was looking at your feet the whole time. I think people are drawn to different things, judge or spectator. I know what engages me when I look at 6 couples on the floor and it's probably something different for you.

That being said, when I asked my teacher (who judges on occasion) what he looks for, he says that it's usually overall appearance to start with, and then he starts narrowing down on proper footwork and steps. If two couples look fairly good, on time, neat, he'll zone in on who is doing proper footwork. Granted, this is probably for syllabus level...because I think that's what we were specifically talking about at the time.

[saludas]

nobody is arguing for 'keeping people out,' so that's a bogus claim.

and it's ironic for you to make the point that it would be improper to 'keep out' or discount comments from beginners because a few posts ago you basically slapped someone you perceived as a beginner for not knowing what they were talking about. the gist of the comment was, "at your level, you really don't know bupkiss." you have done so repeatedly on this board, whilst simultaneously promulgating the appearance of your own mysterious expertise.

in sum, fascination, thank you for that important reminder.

I stand humbled and corrected. now that you mention it, you are right in noting that she does agree that expertise SHOULD be a criteria for commentary... and yes, I certainly agree with her that people should take commentary based upon their perception of the comment-giver.

[DancePoet]

I think that a judge going 'on the scene' quickly learns not only the fine points of what they are watching, but through discussion and observation, sees what is considered part of the technique shown.
How quickly would you say the average International Latin judge learns how to judge American Rythmn?

Remember, all, that judging does not have to include anything specific - judges do not see 'compulsoriy' steps, are not required to look at figures, etc. They only judge 'what they see'. many judges have biases, or slants, towards what they 'want to see' - one judge looks at connection as a big criteria, another at swing. There is no 'standard'.
So then it would depend on what is taught as to how fast they make the jump, good point.

Finally, judging is 'random' - judge A sees couple X for 6 seconds at one point in time, judge B sees them at another. 'Showing the connection' in this case can't be in play simply because judge C might have only looked at 2 couple when they were both doing a natural turn, for instance. Therefore, many coaches suggest that you not do awkward or 'brilliant' choreography in semifinals, for instance, but simpler and more accurate stuff, as a judge will not have more than a few seconds to see you and those few seconds should show high quality, not high difficulty.
So if an experienced American Rythmn judge is looking for many things, and using their own criteria for judging that they have been using for awhile, but an experienced International Latin judge hasn't been shown the same, then there could be a significant difference.

Judging is very subjective....
Without a doubt, and this is why there are so many conversations regarding how things like ballroom are "judged". ;)

[saludas]

How quickly would you say the average International Latin judge learns how to judge American Rythmn?



anecdotally, very quickly - otherwise you would not see them on the comp floor, since their judging calls would (potentially) be so out of line with the other judges.

[fascination]

anecdotally, very quickly - otherwise you would not see them on the comp floor, since their judging calls would (potentially) be so out of line with the other judges.I have seen it at comps...but again, that's just me ...and who am I? just one dancer...that is all

[cornutt]

anecdotally, very quickly - otherwise you would not see them on the comp floor, since their judging calls would (potentially) be so out of line with the other judges.

Hmm. I didn't realize that judges talk to each other about this sort of thing. If a judge consistently turns in marks that are at odds with other judges, will he get called out by his peers?

[DancePoet]

anecdotally, very quickly - otherwise you would not see them on the comp floor, since their judging calls would (potentially) be so out of line with the other judges.
What is the process used to determine whether or not they are permitted on the comp floor to judge?

[DancePoet]

Hmm. I didn't realize that judges talk to each other about this sort of thing. If a judge consistently turns in marks that are at odds with other judges, will he get called out by his peers?
And this leads me to wonder if there is a review process, ongoing testing to see if a judge is maintaining their skill level, or whatever?

[fascination]

I agree if their opinion is relevant to their field and expertise. However, what makes this forum so good is that opinions and commentary is accepted by everyone, at every level of expertise. Keeping out comments and opinions from, for example, beginners, simply because they are inexperienced, makes for a very limited dialog. Ditto for people who are not 'experts' - otherwise, why would (for example) someone contribute to a thread like this if their was criteria of expertise or 'quality of dance' before they could opine? Would you rather have people comment based on their ranking?

And, sorry, but keeping people out because you are not happy with their opinions is not allowed anywhere...my goodness gracious...you'd have thought I had directed the comment at you personally Saludas...I do recall including everyone including myself in my advice that should be taken with caution caveat....and rest assured, I have never lobbyed for keeping any opinion out of this forum unless it didn't meet our guidelines....my only point, lest is be further misunderstood...is that it is easier to weigh the merits of the advice from persons whose record and/or reputation and/or results and/or career paths/success are a matter accessible to the public....

[saludas]

Hmm. I didn't realize that judges talk to each other about this sort of thing. If a judge consistently turns in marks that are at odds with other judges, will he get called out by his peers?

I think that they are not called out but advised...??

[saludas]

What is the process used to determine whether or not they are permitted on the comp floor to judge?

The criteria is part of the USADance rulebook...

[saludas]

my goodness gracious...you'd have thought I had directed the comment at you personally Saludas...I do recall including everyone including myself in my advice that should be taken with caution caveat....and rest assured, I have never lobbyed for keeping any opinion out of this forum unless it didn't meet our guidelines....my only point, lest is be further misunderstood...is that it is easier to weigh the merits of the advice from persons whose record and/or reputation and/or results and/or career paths/success are a matter accessible to the public....

I dunno... Some of the smartest people I know have what are called 'street smarts'... and they are not successful, nor have a reputation... but are the kind of people who 'get it'... can focus tright onto the problem and solve it... ofter making their anonymity a 'feature' and not a 'bug'... it is easist to weigh opinion based upon past opinions... and easiest to weigh facts based upon accuracy...

[SDsalsaguy]

The criteria is part of the USADance rulebook...
Umm, only for USADance judges and judging... that has absolutely nothing to do with franchise, NDCA, and WD&DSC judging. ;)