Violence in Dance Class....

[peachexploration]

Okay, this is something that happened earlier this year. (I've been on Salsa "dance" vacation for a while.) A couple of months before that, I had to stop classes for about two weeks because I kept throwing my back out. How was I throwing my back out? Guys who'd push, pull, twist my arm off while in the hammerlock move. It was awful! :evil: The last straw? This guy in class (intermediate student) was having trouble with this move. He wanted me to go one way but his body movement said something else. The teacher caught it and corrected him. So, he tries it again and still can't get it and is quite frustrated at this point. So instead of asking for the teacher's help again, I get a karate chop right in the middle of my back. :evil: Before the pain set in, it was everything I could do not to smack him silly. What gives, guys? How in the world could any dance make someone violent? Also, I think this could be one reason why there is quite a shortage of women in classes? What do you think? Is it just me or is it just me? :lol:

[foursquare]

Okay, this is something that happened earlier this year. (I've been on Salsa "dance" vacation for a while.) A couple of months before that, I had to stop classes for about two weeks because I kept throwing my back out. How was I throwing my back out? Guys who'd push, pull, twist my arm off while in the hammerlock move. It was awful! :evil: The last straw? This guy in class (intermediate student) was having trouble with this move. He wanted me to go one way but his body movement said something else. The teacher caught it and corrected him. So, he tries it again and still can't get it and is quite frustrated at this point. So instead of asking for the teacher's help again, I get a karate chop right in the middle of my back. :evil: Before the pain set in, it was everything I could do not to smack him silly. What gives, guys? How in the world could any dance make someone violent? Also, I think this could be one reason why there is quite a shortage of women in classes? What do you think? Is it just me or is it just me? :lol:

Just a clarification: Did this hit occur as a product of still not getting the move right, or did he do it out of frustration and hit the closest thing, namely you?

foursquare

[etchuck]

:( Gosh, I hope you're feeling better/recovering well...

I am not sure how well lead/follow technique is taught by that instructor, but certainly in the swing classes and ballroom classes, people are shown how not to crank down the arm to cause injuries. At least there is some reason why technique is very important there. I'm not sure if the salsa instructor there made a good point about that. Of course, less-experienced leaders tend to not know what hurts the follower I suppose, and I guess we have a mentality that a lead must be constant throughout the move.

I make that mistake on occasion, and I'm trying to learn leading more patiently than I have before. But I certainly know there are only certain directions an arm joint moves and I try to be sure my hand-grip is light enough that any unintented motion doesn't cause an injury. (Granted, the follower can't death-grip me either, but then I won't tend to do those moves.)

P.S. Of course, I also do a lot of other types of dances that I try to import some moves to others. Hammerlocks come up in swing dancing too (and I've done it/taught it in merengue SLOWLY), and if you get the concepts there, you can do hammerlocks in the club dances really well. Not that it helps your lead at that point.

[Vin]

OUCH :shock:
I am assuming the karate chop was accidental, I hope. If it was on purpose he should have been kicked out of class forever no refund, no nothing and he is lucky if you don't press charges.
I think though that it is very irresponsible of both the other student and the teacher. The other student shouldn't try and rush a complicated move that he does not know well and the teacher should allow enough time for the move to be learned well. Not too mention in every dance class I think it should constantly be mentioned to the leads that women are people too and not lifeless rag dolls that can be turned and twisted in every way imaginable.
This is why I don't like momentum based salsa. I feel every lead should allow the follow to do her own thing should she not feel safe doing a movement. Yes I do imply that you do an inside turn but if you don't feel like you have the space then you are free to stop the turn without me pulling your arm out of socket. Or I imply that you do a double free spin but if you feel the carpet will cause an ankle twist feel free to just stand there when I give that slight push.

[peachexploration]

Foursquare, it was out of frustration unfortunately. And no, he still did not get the move. His exact words were "No, go here!" Then, I got the infamous chop. :( I gave him a long stare and the teacher quickly said change partners now! Gave him a special five minutes lesson to the side before returning him to the rest of the class.

Oh, I think also that some people get so concetrated on the move that they forget that they are dancing with another person. But this was happening too much (among other reasons) so I stopped classes for a while.

[tj]

Ow!

That's just sooo rude and wrong.

Usually, I'll chalk that sort of thing up to:
1) An instructor not taking enough time to explain proper technique.

And/or:

2) A lead trying to dance over his level.

And yes, it's often a reason why I've had Follows tell me why they've stopped taking lessons in certain classes.

[peachexploration]

2) A lead trying to dance over his level.

And yes, it's often a reason why I've heard Follows tell me why they've stopped taking lessons in certain classes.

Yeah, I think your #2 is right on. I really wished my teacher would have asked him to sit out the rest of the class after that. I wouldn't dance with him after that.

[borikensalsero]

God, I'm so sorry, sadly it happens so often, I knew a guy that used to scream out of the top of his longs for the girl to go where he wanted her. He would even PUSH them to where he wanted. It was like watching a wrestling match... He is better but still blames the follower for his leading mistakes. He has even left girls on the dance-floor because, "supposedly" they couldn't follow.

It is sad, but that is the kind of behavior that Pattern salsa seems to promote. We get people that teach salsa as patterns, then students like the one you mentioned wants to do things he can't do, only because he thinks of it as dancing salsa, hence, must learn at all costs! Darn philosophy, it only causes problems! I can't stand it when I go to a class, and all the instructor is worried about is getting a few patterns down! Then say, lets dance! AHHHHH, I'm so sorry you are going through this peach. :(

[etchuck]

2) A lead trying to dance over his level.

And yes, it's often a reason why I've heard Follows tell me why they've stopped taking lessons in certain classes.

Yeah, I think your #2 is right on. I really wished my teacher would have asked him to sit out the rest of the class after that. I wouldn't dance with him after that.

Sounds like the guy deserves 2 minutes in a penalty box. Granted, I don't think that happens if a student is paying for a class.

I think the attitude is not specifically pervasive in salsa, but certainly teaching that move in an intermediate class requires a lot of time and patience if you don't want anyone to get hurt.

[foursquare]

Foursquare, it was out of frustration unfortunately. And no, he still did not get the move. His exact words were "No, go here!" Then, I got the infamous chop. :( I gave him a long stare and the teacher quickly said change partners now! Gave him a special five minutes lesson to the side before returning him to the rest of the class.

Oh, I think also that some people get so concetrated on the move that they forget that they are dancing with another person. But this was happening too much (among other reasons) so I stopped classes for a while.

Point him out Peach... I'll give him a private five minute lesson the old-fashioned way. Maybe I'm showing my age, but you if you're a guy, I don't care what you're going through at the moment, you don't hit a girl. You hit a girl, and I'll be right there hitting you back for her.

That the teacher or anyone else in the class didn't do the same disgusts me.

foursquare
(Glad to hear you're none the worse for wear anyway.)

[peachexploration]

God, I'm so sorry, sadly it happens so often, I knew a guy that used to scream out of the top of his longs for the girl to go where he wanted her. Yeah, seen that one too many times as well. :(

It is sad, but that is the kind of behavior that Pattern salsa seems to promote.

Boriken, this really shines some light on it and you're right, this was the culprit. He (and others) just had to get that sequence pattern at all costs and was not getting the specifics of partner work or really wasn't even thinking in those terms.

[peachexploration]

....
Point him out Peach... I'll give him a private five minute lesson the old-fashioned way. Maybe I'm showing my age, but you if you're a guy, I don't care what you're going through at the moment, you don't hit a girl. You hit a girl, and I'll be right there hitting you back for her.

That the teacher or anyone else in the class didn't do the same disgusts me.

foursquare
(Glad to hear you're none the worse for wear anyway.)

Okay, his name is @#$#$ and he goes the @#$$% salsa school. Hahahahah. Just Kidding!! :D He's probably in the advanced class spreading the havoc!! :nope: Joking aside. I think we were all shocked, even the instructor. I hope no one else has gotten in the way of his wrath, that hurt not only my back but my perception of Salsa. :( But Salsa had nothing to do with him or his actions. He did that on his own. :evil:

[borikensalsero]

I hope no one else has gotten in the way of his wrath, that hurt not only my back but my perception of Salsa. :( But Salsa had nothing to do with him or his actions. He did that on his own. :evil:

This is the very reason why I can't stand it when instructors teach patterns; yet say nothing about its philosophical application. We need to teach newbies not only patterns, but the safe heaven and the priorities, that patterns will never make you dance, what makes salsa dancing is but the enjoyment and fulfillment from being together with the music, and your partner. Patterns are not salsa, it doesn’t matter how many of them you do!!!

There needs to be the passing of knowledge to guide people who have never been on a dance floor, those who have never taken a class and don’t understand lead/follow, the courtship of salsa, etc. As teachers we should be responsible for our students actions on the floor, after all not only are they doing what they’ve been taught, but also become a representation of that instructor. The student will dance, what the instructor has taught both consciously and unconsciously. He will use the philosophical display of the teacher’s dance and create what he thinks is salsa dancing. Newbies see instructors dancing one way then want the same, yet the teacher doesn’t take the time to explain the why/how/when/where/what of the intricacies of salsa. Crap, someone of them don’t even know it themselves! Never-the-less, the only way to stop this is to each one of us be responsible for passing-on something more than, dude that was a cool move, can you do this one! Lets try this, this and that, we have one hour how many moves can we learn! Ok, new class, new move, there is no time to wait. Lots of move yet no knowledge of application! It’s a shame!! How about more instructors wake up and see that philosophy of salsa is truly the dance, not the spins, shines, patterns!! Ahhhhh, I’m mad!

[foursquare]

I hope no one else has gotten in the way of his wrath

That's what I'm saying. If more of us stepped up to the plate and "got in the way," I think we'd see a decline in that sort of behavior. I am slow to anger, but when I see a guy abusing a chick, be it hitting, yelling, or unwelcome advances, I will happily get involved. Verbal abuse, or a guy just getting a little too familiar than the girl is comfortable with can be dealt with with a little "Dude, what the ****'s your problem?" Hitting a chick? That requires a little physical retaliation to drive home the point that this is something that we, as guys, don't do.

If this guy that hit you had gotten popped right away by someone, say, me, than he's going to think twice before he does it again. That he got off unscathed leads me to believe that he'll just do it again until someone does take a poke at him.

Sorry, feel a little strongly about this. I see too many chicks put up with this kind of crap, and see too little help from the boys when it does happen.

foursquare

[DanceAm]

I have usually noticed that a man's biggest problem when learning is confidence and not executing the move with enough energy is the problem. He is usually so apologetic and gun shy that he takes forever to learn to execute the move.

Then to force the move is the other problem.

I have also witnessed those that act superior making it seem like the other's fault.

But to force the move then get violent, that is a first of a story like that for me. And he is still dancing and taking classes?

[Chris Stratton]

Clearly in a situation like this something needs to be done, but it's hard to know which is the right course of action: respond only to the violence, or respond to the incapacitating frustration that caused it.

For the immediate victim, the ONLY answer is to respond to the violence by getting away from the person using it.

But everyone else does have a choice: we can simply send the message that violence is unacceptable by banishing the person. But chances are they already 'know' this at some level - while repeated banishment from activites and eventaully society itself may make this clearer, simply pushing someone out does not equip them with any more functional tools for dealing with difficulties. Banish someone enough times and the only place left to send them is a jail cell - which costs us all a lot of money.

The alternate possiblity is to try to address the underlying causes of frustration. In a dance class that might mean solving the actual dance problems, with the figure, with understanding of lead/follow, etc. While frustration-management issues probably go far beyond dancing, learning how to work through situtions like this in dancing may not be a bad model for how to deal with them elswhere.

[peachexploration]

...... after all not only are they doing what they’ve been taught, but also become a representation of that instructor.

Awesome that you mentioned this. This was kind of what I was eluding to when I was asking this question a while back... Students Represent Dance School or Vice-Versa (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2264)

...... Lets try this, this and that, we have one hour how many moves can we learn! Ok, new class, new move, there is no time to wait. Lots of move yet no knowledge of application! It’s a shame!! How about more instructors wake up and see that philosophy of salsa is truly the dance, not the spins, shines, patterns!! Ahhhhh, I’m mad! Gosh, do I definitely agree with that!!! That is so frustrating. Overload everyone with different moves every week and then when the student's ask you (the instructor) to show them again the very next week, You can't even remember so the student feels lost because he/she is stuck on that one pattern. :(

[borikensalsero]

...... after all not only are they doing what they’ve been taught, but also become a representation of that instructor.

Awesome that you mentioned this. This was kind of what I was eluding to when I was asking this question a while back... Students Represent Dance School or Vice-Versa (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2264)

...... Lets try this, this and that, we have one hour how many moves can we learn! Ok, new class, new move, there is no time to wait. Lots of move yet no knowledge of application! It’s a shame!! How about more instructors wake up and see that philosophy of salsa is truly the dance, not the spins, shines, patterns!! Ahhhhh, I’m mad! Gosh, do I definitely agree with that!!! That is so frustrating. Overload everyone with different moves every week and then when the student's ask you (the instructor) to show them again the very next week, You can't even remember so the student feels lost because he/she is stuck on that one pattern. :(


that's a great topic peach!

[Sakura]

I agree with Foursquare on some level with this.

Abuse of any kind happens on varying levels, and that karate chop you suffered, Peach, is getting to the extreme ends of the Physical Abuse realm.

People like that man have usually learned that it's okay to go on hitting people (girls/women in this case) and nobody has stopped them, and reprimands are obviously doing no good. Those people need to get thrashed themselves, to see that they're not the biggest fish in the sea, to be cliched about it all, and to have their ego bruised. Lawsuits can also bring these people's ego's down, if you either don't want to or can't thrash the person in question. Once the ego's bruised, *then* throw them into the "anger/frustration management" bits.

:x I hate people who abuse. I don't know if that's obvious or not...
=-_-=;;I've had my fair share of it from my older Brother. (One of the reasons why I speak of him with so much contempt.) I'm glad you've gotten away from him though, Peach! I agree that it's always best to get away if you can, but there are times when more action than that does need to be taken.

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Sagitta]

Being the brunt of stuff like this!! No wonder you are taking a dance haitus Peach!!

[tj]

...... Lets try this, this and that, we have one hour how many moves can we learn! Ok, new class, new move, there is no time to wait. Lots of move yet no knowledge of application! It’s a shame!! How about more instructors wake up and see that philosophy of salsa is truly the dance, not the spins, shines, patterns!! Ahhhhh, I’m mad! Gosh, do I definitely agree with that!!! That is so frustrating. Overload everyone with different moves every week and then when the student's ask you (the instructor) to show them again the very next week, You can't even remember so the student feels lost because he/she is stuck on that one pattern. :(

Yuck - this was happening at the class I was taking, but it was more because there were guys in there who had no business taking their Advanced classes.

Those of us in the class who are at the proper level weren't being sufficiently challenged. Thus, the mulititude of moves, most of which we've seen before.

But then, enter the Newbie, who can't even lead a C-B-L properly, and stuff like this happens.

This is an unfortunate aspect of dancing. One answer would be for instructors to tell their students which level classes they can take. But most instructors don't do this.

[Danish Guy]

Sorry to hear that Peach. :cry: :cry: :cry:
He deserved your five fingers on the cheek.
This guy should find the exit door, and stay away.

Hugs & comfort.:friend:

[Chris Stratton]

Those of us in the class who are at the proper level weren't being sufficiently challenged. Thus, the mulititude of moves, most of which we've seen before.

But then, enter the Newbie, who can't even lead a C-B-L properly, and stuff like this happens.

I wonder if the problem at both levels isn't the tendancy to associate the concept of 'challenge' with the variety of material presented, rather than quality of execution and partnering dynamic expected.

This raises a question I've been wanting to ask all day: could you imagine a salsa class, for those with at least a few saturday nights of introductory experience, which spent an entire hour on one form of a forward-back basic? Think about what you would cover if you were to teach a class like that. You could do a lady's single under arm turn the next week - but figuring out what to cover there is simple by comparison.

[peachexploration]

......One answer would be for instructors to tell their students which level classes they can take. But most instructors don't do this.Yeah, TJ. This is true, it is sometimes more of a money issue. One school I went to had all of their students in one class. Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. Unfortunately, we did no get much accomplished. Different levels, different needs. But instead of the instructor scheduling times for all, they did the unfortunate in fear of losing students/money.

[Danish Guy]

It is sad, but that is the kind of behavior that Pattern salsa seems to promote. We get people that teach salsa as patterns, then students like the one you mentioned wants to do things he can't do, only because he thinks of it as dancing salsa, hence, must learn at all costs! Darn philosophy, it only causes problems! I can't stand it when I go to a class, and all the instructor is worried about is getting a few patterns down! Then say, lets dance!(

There may be some truth in the pattern philosophy as Boriken states, by I don’t buy it completely. This guy looks like a looser on the dancefloor, which blame his partner for lack of talent, and fails to see his own mistakes.

The girls would grove the wrong way too, not to talk about grinding.

This guy show not respect for his fellow dance student. This is the main issue here.

What might get the situation worse, is if the teacher doesn’t explain the basic rules.

There’s the “It’s always the guys fault”.
There’s the “Never use force while leading”.

The there’s the patterns themselves.
Does the teacher give away all detail to the pattern? Small things like leading on the shoulder, not the hand to hand connection. A gentle push on her back on 5. Stop her on the low right hand connection, and then turn under the left. You get the point!

Good teachers get this into the instruction.

SD was the first that showed me a pattern, where all the details were explained. Furthermore he showed what was most likely to go wrong, before if happened among class. And he was just a guest teacher. :notworth:

Some show a move, and then see the class struggle. The commenting ups, forgot to mention this handheld is vital for the move.

Then there are those patterns that can’t be lead. The chorographic stuff and some casino patterns. The class need to know this stuff can’t be used on a social dancefloor. At least not without knowing the partner very well.

My 2 cents, hope you get the point!

[peachexploration]

......The alternate possiblity is to try to address the underlying causes of frustration.......

.....While frustration-management issues probably go far beyond dancing, learning how to work through situtions like this in dancing may not be a bad model for how to deal with them elswhere.

Unfortunately, Chris I've seen more people than I care to remember with the notion that dance class is a place to blow off steam after an anger-management class, work or any other place where there is a high level of stress and they had to use control. For the life of me I cant understand it. Dancing should bring out the best in a person, not turn them into a monster. I must say, I definitely wasn't prepared for it. When I dance, I'm the happiest person I could be. So being affronted by someone like this and many other situations I don't care to speak of right now, is just mind boggling. *shrug* I see your point though, this is far beyond dancing. :?

[Sagitta]

This discussion reminds me of some others and comments like when I see a married couple dancing I can see if they are in love or having a tiff....from way back...

I wonder how many of those socially inept people out there learn dances to meet people, and find the same problems that they had in on-dance social situations. I believe that dance, in some ways, is a mirror to our lives. If we don't know how to cope with frustration and anger outside dance the same problems will crop in dance. It's a question of "it's my way" or "it's our way". Some ways that lead follow concepts are presented in dance lessons it makes it seem as if it is "it's my way". Someone, DanceAm, I think, mentioned that there are those who are forceful and those who are too timid. I'm neither, but whatever I do I'm always mindful of the follow. If she resists a move as she is uncomfortable it means that I've not gained her trust sufficiently to do it and I just move on. One such move is "in and out", where from open break leader comes behind follow, so her hand goes behind her. Some of the newer dancers are uncmfortable with this one.

[Chris Stratton]

Again, I want to say that I think the only responsability of the victim is self-protection, at least in the time of the incident. Being able to step back and think about the whole situation is great, but only something to be done when it's safe to, both physically and in terms of not blaming oneself for other's faults.

Dance class certainly can be a place to blow off steam and relax - if it's run in such a way as to be possible Challenge is great when it's not overwhelming, but if someone is left without the information they need to keep up with the class, then dance class becomes just another source of stress. The last thing someone who comes to class hoping to relax and have fun after a bad day at work wants is more can't even get through the figure stress.

This is one of the reasons I really prefer to treat dance as a quest for quality rather than variety. Someone can always survive by doing the figure poorly, and if it's really over their head they may not even suffer the stress of realizing how poorly for a while. While those who can already get through it concentrate on making it better. Sure, there can still be stress, between competition partners who won't accept less than their current concept of perfection, or between someone trying to work on details rotating to someone trying to just survive - but at least there's some means of adapting the challenge to an individual's needs.

And of course we all also have to learn what to do when we do get frustrated, over our heads, or simply caught up in a suddenly captivating detail. Personally, I'm a master of dropping out of rotation and dancing with the (ballroom) technique book and a 'leave me alone' frown as partner for a few run throughs.

[dancin/dj]

thats terrible peach :cry: ,send him to me or foursquare we can correct him :evil: -on the other side of the coin(never taking away what happened to you) 2 weeks ago was disco america in phila- i helped the person who puts this on -dj-door watching-ticket taker etc... anyway i heard that a (big name west coast swing couple)from ny,the girl was cussing like a sailor at her dance partner in public-physical is a no no for sure(unless someone trying to kill or hurt you)male or female.-but verbal can be just as bad, this couple also dates,i so nuff would put up with that crap-not anymore anyway(past) girl)

[dancin/dj]

insert - so nuff would not-

[salsachinita]

(I've been on Salsa "dance" vacation for a while.) A couple of months before that, I had to stop classes for about two weeks because I kept throwing my back out.

So that was the source of your salsa hiatus :idea: , PeachE!

It was a Rueda/Casino class, right? Last year, I went through the same thing. I turned up to a Rueda class (by a very well known teacher) just to learn a few moves. What made me stop going was because of how rough the leads were :x .......! Admittedly, it was a pretty intense class & fairly complex moves (most of the guys were way below this level, while for some of us it was just right). I got pulled & sholved by that many rough leads I twisted my wrist.......ouch!

That was the only class in my whole life I've walked out of :evil: (either that or risk crying in public because of the pain, or kick a few heads & cause my own chaos)!!!!!!

Having said that, I'm still great friends with the teacher & Casino is still my favourite style.

Last week, I was injured again. This time it was my left shoulder, and I was helping to teach a beginner's salsa (not Rueda/Casino). Man, some of these newbies are so rough!!!!!!!! Serioously, I'm a girl from old-school momentum based salsa so I'm more than capable of handling heavy leading.......but so much pushing & yanking :x ???!!!!!!

[SDsalsaguy]

SD was the first that showed me a pattern, where all the details were explained. Furthermore he showed what was most likely to go wrong, before if happened among class. And he was just a guest teacher. :notworth:
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Thanks DG, but I wasn't really even a guest "teacher" ...since I'm not an instructor!

It just worked out that, when I ended up staying in town an extra week, Sorn asked me if I'd be willing to show the advanced class some of my stuff the next time since I dance a very different style. I am *most* flattered, however, that you found my explanation useful... especially since, as already noted, I'm not actually a teacher. :oops:

[Danish Guy]

I know that SD, but you did your homework preparation better than most.

[SDsalsaguy]

Again, thanks. :oops: :oops: :oops:

I'm not someone who learned dance easily so I just try and think of everything that I would've found helpful when I was still getting started...

[salsachinita]

I'm not someone who learned dance easily so I just try and think of everything that I would've found helpful when I was still getting started...

8) That actually makes you a better teacher than most.......!

For people who learn dancing easily, it can be hard to understand some of the subtlties that make a difference.

So how about it......SD? I shall see if I can arrange some gigs for you downunder :wink: :lol: !

[peachexploration]

I'm not someone who learned dance easily so I just try and think of everything that I would've found helpful when I was still getting started...

8) That actually makes you a better teacher than most.......!

Ditto! :D

[MacMoto]

What might get the situation worse, is if the teacher doesn’t explain the basic rules.

There’s the “It’s always the guys fault”.
There’s the “Never use force while leading”.

The there’s the patterns themselves.
Does the teacher give away all detail to the pattern? Small things like leading on the shoulder, not the hand to hand connection. A gentle push on her back on 5. Stop her on the low right hand connection, and then turn under the left. You get the point!

Good teachers get this into the instruction.
You make a really good point, Danish Guy.
Good teachers explain not only how a move should be led but also why it has to be led that way. And the why is often about indicating your intention to the follower clearly without causing any discomfort or pain. These teachers show you what will happen if the move is led the wrong way.

Unfortunately, these good teachers seem to be few and far between, and there are too many pattern dispensers who forget to teach the lead/follow aspect of the patterns ... :evil:

[Chris Stratton]

Good teachers explain not only how a move should be led but also why it has to be led that way. And the why is often about indicating your intention to the follower clearly without causing any discomfort or pain. These teachers show you what will happen if the move is led the wrong way.

Unfortunately, these good teachers seem to be few and far between, and there are too many pattern dispensers who forget to teach the lead/follow aspect of the patterns ... :evil:

To what extent is emphasis one these kinds of things maintained in the casino rueda setting?

[salsachinita]

To what extent is emphasis one these kinds of things maintained in the casino rueda setting?

Unfortunately it varies a lot between teachers :( .........

I know that from experience, the casino/rueda classes tend to be fun focused instead of technique focused........while L.A. classes can be heavily technique-based & no time for fun (Disclaimer: my personal experience only).

Heck, is it possible to cover both areas in classes, no matter what style :x ?!

[Lita_rulez]

Heck, is it possible to cover both areas in classes, no matter what style :x ?!

Yes, it is !
My favourit cuban teacher in Paris manages to teach both the fun part of dancing, and the technique of the paterns, as long as you are willing to take the classes in the order they are supposed to, and not jump sessions.

Of course, he can not teach everything, and give everyone a personalized correction, since his classes are so popular that I have never seen one of his classes with less than 2 ruedas to fit everyone attending (and have actually seen it once with 5 ruedas :shock: )

But you get the arm patterns, the turning patern around your partner, the turning patern vis-a-vis the rueda, some of the body movements (wave...) and the places where you can change something to the patern.

Throw in the jokes and just pure fun and happyness into the mix, and you'll begin to understand why I am not the only one to believe he is one of the greatest thing since cheesecake !

[Sakura]

Last week, I was injured again. This time it was my left shoulder, and I was helping to teach a beginner's salsa (not Rueda/Casino). Man, some of these newbies are so rough!!!!!!!! Serioously, I'm a girl from old-school momentum based salsa so I'm more than capable of handling heavy leading.......but so much pushing & yanking :x ???!!!!!!

This was along my experience too, when I went to my first Salsa lesson! Being one who picks up dance easily, I really wasn't sure what to expect out of these people (who were actually part of a WCS group doing a special workshop); but I got a lot more than I was worried about in a few leads! The heavy "leading" from those leads was just painful at points in time! ...Mostly because I think they thought women turned into ragdolls when doing any sort of turn, so they can whip us around with our arms wrenched up and back. :evil: ...Although, maybe I didn't get hurt as much because I have an older brother I used to get into huge fist/wrestle/"nearly anything goes" fights with... :lol: :roll:

Are all or most newbie leaders (or leaders in a dance that's new to them) so awful in their leading? I'd hate to think they are!

Throw in the jokes and just pure fun and happyness into the mix, and you'll begin to understand why I am not the only one to believe he is one of the greatest thing since cheesecake !

*nods* Jokes combined with fun and happiness make up the other half of why I love my teacher so much! ...And if I liked cheesecake, I'd be cheering for him then, right along with you! :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[SDsalsaguy]

I'm not someone who learned dance easily so I just try and think of everything that I would've found helpful when I was still getting started...

8) That actually makes you a better teacher than most.......!

For people who learn dancing easily, it can be hard to understand some of the subtlties that make a difference.

So how about it......SD? I shall see if I can arrange some gigs for you downunder :wink: :lol: !
No can do SC... I still want to be able to do some amateur ballroom competition here in the U.S. (if I can ever find a good new partner!!!) so I can't really teach salsa. I am always happy however, and as I did in Denmark, to share whatever I can with others... :wink:

[salsachinita]

so I can't really teach salsa.

.......sssshhhhhhh, we won't tell anyone :wink: :lol: ....!

[SDsalsaguy]

so I can't really teach salsa.

.......sssshhhhhhh, we won't tell anyone :wink: :lol: ....!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

...don't go getting me in trouble now SC! :wink: :lol:

[Genesius Redux]

That's the most appalling thing I've ever heard, Peach.

I'm glad I wasn't there. Because if I saw anyone doing something like that to you, they'd get a taste of what real violence can be like in a dance class. An immediate, unconditional, and uninhibited taste.

I'm so hot right now I've got to go cool down.

[Chris Stratton]

One of the reasons I asked about rueda was that it's been my personal experience that situations where 'you will do the same move as everyone else, no matter if you are comfortable with it or not' are where the worst dancing happens.

I even found this in terms of my muscle tension and 'pushiness' between international style ballroom, which I compete without routines by choosing things that feel in the moment like they will work, and american smooth ballroom, where we had fixed routines we were intent on accomplishing. In standard if we weren't set up for something I'd choose something else. In smooth we'd launch into a complicated figure even from the a messed up starting position, so that we could get back on the routine.

If a leader realizes that for whatever reason his partner isn't going to manage to complete some intricate spin on time, it can be really tempting to just wrench her hand down and around to try to hit the exit on the right beat. The only way to alleviate that seems to be to shift the social pressure away from getting through stuff, and onto doing it correctly and comfortably.

[peachexploration]

It was a Rueda/Casino class, right? ...........

Hi SC...No, this scenario was one on one. Believe it or not, injury wise, I didn't have a problem in Casino Rueda.

Thanks everyone for the well wishes. I'm doing fine now. Always nice to have different thoughts and angles on things. You guys rock! 8)

[Twilight_Elena]

Peach, I would have slapped the guy. :P Okay, so I'm a bit violent and hot tempered. Perhaps I would have simply pushed him away and yelled "*** is wrong with you, dude?!?"
*Breathe in. Out. Now, let's try some anger management classes, Elena...*

Twilight Elena

[Sagitta]

Peach, I would have slapped the guy. :P Okay, so I'm a bit violent and hot tempered. Perhaps I would have simply pushed him away and yelled "*** is wrong with you, dude?!?"
*Breathe in. Out. Now, let's try some anger management classes, Elena...*

Twilight Elena

Over one year after it happened! :wink: :lol:

[Sakura]

Peach, I would have slapped the guy. :P Okay, so I'm a bit violent and hot tempered. Perhaps I would have simply pushed him away and yelled "*** is wrong with you, dude?!?"
*Breathe in. Out. Now, let's try some anger management classes, Elena...*

Twilight Elena

Over one year after it happened! :wink: :lol:

It *has* been a year, hasn't it? I had wondered when I saw the topic had been updated. Hopefully no one else has had any bad dance experiences since then.

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[macha]

Ok, I only read the first page, and I'm sure I'm echoing other sentiments, but why didn't you slap the piss out of this whelp?

It's rhetorical, but I just had to say it, otherwise I'd be doing that squirm like when I have to pee.

[peachexploration]

Peach, I would have slapped the guy. :P Okay, so I'm a bit violent and hot tempered. Perhaps I would have simply pushed him away and yelled "*** is wrong with you, dude?!?"
*Breathe in. Out. Now, let's try some anger management classes, Elena...*

Twilight Elena

:lol: :lol:

No, I haven't seen him in over a year thank goodness. Well, I haven't been back to the schools he frequents either so he may still be there if someone else hasn't smacked him yet. :wink:

[peachexploration]

....Over one year after it happened! :wink: :lol:

:shock:

Wow, it has been a while. 8)

[Twilight_Elena]

So I update lost threads for the sake of commenting. Shoot me. :P :wink:

Twilight Elena

[macha]

"So it is to be war upon you both!"

:lol:

[pygmalion]

Hey. Resurrecting older threads is a time-honored DF tradition! :roll: :wink: :lol:

[Sagitta]

So I update lost threads for the sake of commenting. Shoot me. :P :wink:

Twilight Elena

bang bang. :wink: :) :cheers:

[SDsalsaguy]

:eyebrow:

[pygmalion]

LOL. I wasn't going to ask. :wink: :lol:

[Sakura]

Hey. Resurrecting older threads is a time-honored DF tradition! :roll: :wink: :lol:

And quite a fun one too! Yeah, old threads!

:banana: :cheers: :banana:

:lol: :wink: :lol:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Sagitta]

LOL. I wasn't going to ask. :wink: :lol:

Not what any of you guys thinking. Fireworks. For that she owes me a dance or two, or three, and then.... :wink: :)

[Twilight_Elena]

Pygmalion, you're the queen of thread ressurection and I'm folllowing your wise example. Sagitta is just trying to lure me into a salsa night with him. :P Fireworks won't work, I'm afraid. I'm not into shines. Try a smooth dip and I'll reconsider. :raisebro:

Twilight Elena

P.s. You people have totally corrupted me...

[Sakura]

P.s. You people have totally corrupted me...

Muwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha!!!!!!!!! The plan continues! We have another one in our power!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :wink:

SK :kitty:

PS-Nice eyebrows!

[Twilight_Elena]

P.s. You people have totally corrupted me...

Muwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha!!!!!!!!! The plan continues! We have another one in our power!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :wink:

SK :kitty:

PS-Nice eyebrows!

Thankies. :D

Twilight Elena

[megaproto]

2) A lead trying to dance over his level.

And yes, it's often a reason why I've heard Follows tell me why they've stopped taking lessons in certain classes.

Yeah, I think your #2 is right on. I really wished my teacher would have asked him to sit out the rest of the class after that. I wouldn't dance with him after that.

this guy is not me, is it? im quite bad at doing some moves sometimes it take me sometimes to, quite understandable for that guy, buuuuut i dont karate chop people, :(

[randomMysh]

Man, am I late to this one too... :oops:

A guy who'd do that to me would get quite a scalding lecture in return. If I was feeling charitable, that is. Otherwise, guys, don't forget that your partners wear weapons on their feet! :evil:
Having said that, I think it's the teacher's job to ensure a minimum level of civility in his/her class, and for anything less than physical abuse, I'd let him/her handle it. Perhaps take the student out of the classroom and explain certain things in private as soon as negative behavior takes place. Or something. But, if I'm hit (!!!!), I'll definitely address the cituation. I think simply walking away would give the guy the idea that it's sorta ok to behave that way and the fact that I'm upset is my own problem.
GRRRRRR!

[Sagitta]

Pygmalion, you're the queen of thread ressurection and I'm folllowing your wise example. Sagitta is just trying to lure me into a salsa night with him. :P Fireworks won't work, I'm afraid. I'm not into shines. Try a smooth dip and I'll reconsider. :raisebro:

Twilight Elena

P.s. You people have totally corrupted me...

I'll do better then dips...