Nontraditional time signatures

[LCbaseball22]

The music is 4/4. But it does have that waltz feel to it, so I can see how one could be deceived. I would try a foxtrot, incorporating maybe some waltz elements. Starting at 0:53, you could start a Viennese and dance that for about 16 measures, slowing it down to hesitations for the last 4 measures, switching back to foxtrot afterwards. There is a similar section around 2:00 (edit: and 2:43). So if you wanted to incorporate both dances, you could. Or you can dance foxtrot to the whole thing.

It's an interesting song for sure, and would make a good song for a show dance.

Oh and welcome to the boards.

Hmm, really not seeing that being suitable for foxtrot but it is 4/4 timing? :confused:

Ok, I was pretty confused by this one, my gut telling me it was 4/4 but then it sounded 3/4 starting around the :50 second mark you mentioned as well as the other points. Actually I thought it was transitioning back and forth between 4/4 and 3/4 but I guess from :50 to like 1:08 it's just hard to hear the full beat due to the increased volume of the lyrics and then after that the piano speeds up in certain sections such that I didn't think I was hearing a 4th beat any longer. Oh, and then as you said there was the "it has the Waltz feel" and can't think what else I'd dance to it notion, lol.

This elicits a question...are there any songs with multiple rhythms or do any & all songs stay consistent throughout? I listen to music all the time but I'm not a musical person. In other words I have never played an instrument behind a little piano when I was younger, so I haven't really acquired the ability to read and understand music composition like some have. Probably would be quite useful for dance I imagine if you do have this knowledge...

[Mengu]

Ok, I was pretty confused by this one, my gut telling me it was 4/4 but then it sounded 3/4 starting around the :50 second mark you mentioned as well as the other points. Actually I thought it was transitioning back and forth between 4/4 and 3/4 but I guess the piano just sped up in 4/4 such I didn't think I was hearing a 4th beat any longer. And then there was the it "has the Waltz feel" and can't think what else I'd dance to it notion, lol.

If you listen to the little bit of piano in those trouble sections, the music is 4/4 even in those areas I said you could dance VW to. But there is enough "silence" in there to turn it into VW.

This elicits a question...are there any songs with multiple rhythms or do and all songs stay consistent throughout? I listen to music all the time but I'm not a musical person. In other words I have never played an instrument behind a little piano when I was younger, so I haven't really acquired the ability to read and understand music composition like some have. Probably would be quite useful for dance I imagine if you do have this knowledge...

Yes, there certainly are many songs with rhythm and tempo changes, frequent measure changes, odd phrases, non-strict tempo, and with unusual measures. You can find examples from jazz to heavy metal to broadway. Take a listen to America from West Side Story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QS7wWzwak4) for a fun measure jumble (I guess the technical term is mixed meter).

[LCbaseball22]

Yes, there certainly are many songs with rhythm and tempo changes, frequent measure changes, odd phrases, non-strict tempo, and with unusual measures. You can find examples from jazz to heavy metal to broadway.

Are there any specifically which transition between 3/4 and 4/4 though?

I'm aware there are songs that aren't suitable for a particular dance the whole way through (ie we did a Rumba/Cha Cha routine to a song called Derroche) but I have not actually encountered any with timing changes far as I know...just tempo and such. I apologize if I am confused on the terminology and whatnot btw. And also if it seems like I've hijacked this thread. It's just that the confusion made this question pop into my head.

I'm glad it seems someone more knowledgeable has answered the OP's question at least.

[Peaches]

I would put money on the song being in 4/4. A very, very slim outside chance that it's in 12/8...which I realize doesn't really help you if you're not familiar with musical time signatures to begin with. ;) The reason you're thinking VW is because there are triplets (very roughly speaking, those sets of three notes played quickly together) scattered throughout.

I'm sure there are songs which transition between different time signatures. Granted, off the top of my head I can't think of any right now...which includes not being able to think of those switching between 3/4 and 4/4. But, yes, it does happen.

[Mengu]

Are there any specifically which transition between 3/4 and 4/4 though?

Back and forth? Yeah some. Beatles has a few I think. We Can Work It Out is mainly 4/4, small bit of the chorus goes to 3/4. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is 3/4 and the chorus goes 4/4. All You Need Is Love does something weird I can't quite work out.

I can try to look for others if you need more specific examples. I'm sure there are some more modern ones. There is a bunch of rock songs that transition 5/4 to 4/4, or 7/4 to 4/4.

Edit: Here is another one, Some Velvet Morning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb-SVPJM4L4).

[Peaches]

7/4 to 4/4 transition--"Money" by Pink Floyd

[Mengu]

7/4 to 4/4 transition--"Money" by Pink Floyd

Yeah you'll find a lot of 5/4 and 7/4 to 4/4 examples with Pink Floyd, Rush, Zeppelin, Yes, Metallica, etc.

[quixotedlm]

Can someone point me to a reference that explains what these time signatures mean (3/4, 4/4) etc. I understand them at a rudimentary level (to the extent it is presented on Wikipedia :)), but for a music-theory-layman, that wasn't quite enough. Thanks :)

[danceronice]

Well, the simplest explanation: Musical staves are divided into measures. The top number is the number of beats/notes per measure, while the lower number indicate what note is counted as one. In 3/4 time (said aloud, "three-quarter" time, though you'd call 4/4 'four-four', usually) there are three notes per measure with the single count being a quarter note. You can have time-signature changes in a single piece, though that's usually monkeying with variations on things like 6/8 or 12/8 time and is more likely to come up if you're an instrumentalist.

Honestly, you don't need much/any music theory for dance, mostly just the ability to hear the beat and count it out. Playing an instrument or singing you need to understand the time, also the tempo notation, repeats, codas, etc. Even there you don't necessarily NEED any more theory (lord knows I never took theory, I just played.) And sometimes having too much experience playing/reading music can mess you up a bit--I don't listen to or play a piece on the flute the way I listen to it for danc.

[Peaches]

Well, the simplest explanation: Musical staves are divided into measures. The top number is the number of beats/notes per measure, while the lower number indicate what note is counted as one. In 3/4 time (said aloud, "three-quarter" time, though you'd call 4/4 'four-four', usually) there are three notes per measure with the single count being a quarter note. You can have time-signature changes in a single piece, though that's usually monkeying with variations on things like 6/8 or 12/8 time and is more likely to come up if you're an instrumentalist.
I have to disagree. Notes and beat are not, in any way, interchangeable. So 3/4 time means there are three beats in a meausre, with a quarter not having one beat. It does not mean there are three notes in a measure.

[Subliminal]

Can someone point me to a reference that explains what these time signatures mean (3/4, 4/4) etc. I understand them at a rudimentary level (to the extent it is presented on Wikipedia :)), but for a music-theory-layman, that wasn't quite enough. Thanks :)


Peach and doi have already started to explain, but I will go one layer back...

In western music, there are two basic meters.

STRONG, weak

And

STRONG, weak, weak

All time signatures come from combinations of these two patterns. For example, in 4/4, the pattern is STRONG, weak, STRONG, weak. Traditional waltz time (3/4) is STRONG, weak, weak. As dancers, to represent the music, we typically try to hit the strong beats of the measure.

Now what this thread is talking about are mixed combinations of the two basic meters. For example, Pink Floyd's Money starts out in 7/4. If you listen closely to the strong beats, you will hear STRONG, weak, STRONG, weak, STRONG, weak, weak.

Make sense?

[Steve Pastor]

Meter Basics

http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/meter/Meterbasics.html

Home is here http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/

Time Signatures here, also
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/12

[Steve Pastor]

Reminding me of Hollis Taylor's "Unsquare Dances" recorded after she spent time in Paris and Budpest.

The music we grow up with tends toward utter rhythmic simplicity, mostly based on four beats to the measure ("common time," with a signature of 4/4) or three ("waltz time," 3/4); sure, we all know examples of metrical diversity, but to say that we're familiar with compound meter because we can groove on Paul Desmond's "Take Five" is like saying we're conversant in Malay because we use the word "bamboo." The music Taylor collected was in time signatures that would defy most musicians' ability to count and play at the same time: 11/8, 7/16, 9/4, 21/8. Yet these are not mathematical exercises—they're dances, which is part of what made them compelling for her; she says of her musical explorations in general, "I was determined to seek out the danceability in things."

Though some of the music that provided the basis for Unsquare Dances came from Western Europe (Brittany, Portugal, the Basque Country), the Balkan influence is predominant. "A typical rhythm in Bulgaria is anything but business-as-usual for the rest of the world," Taylor says in her notes, and the same can be said of most of the region.

http://www.hollistaylor.com/tay_media-atcl.html

[Ray Sison]

All very, very interesting... Thanks! :)

[Zhena]

Reminding me of Hollis Taylor's "Unsquare Dances" recorded after she spent time in Paris and Budpest.

The music we grow up with tends toward utter rhythmic simplicity, mostly based on four beats to the measure ("common time," with a signature of 4/4) or three ("waltz time," 3/4); sure, we all know examples of metrical diversity, but to say that we're familiar with compound meter because we can groove on Paul Desmond's "Take Five" is like saying we're conversant in Malay because we use the word "bamboo." The music Taylor collected was in time signatures that would defy most musicians' ability to count and play at the same time: 11/8, 7/16, 9/4, 21/8. Yet these are not mathematical exercises—they're dances, which is part of what made them compelling for her; she says of her musical explorations in general, "I was determined to seek out the danceability in things."

Though some of the music that provided the basis for Unsquare Dances came from Western Europe (Brittany, Portugal, the Basque Country), the Balkan influence is predominant. "A typical rhythm in Bulgaria is anything but business-as-usual for the rest of the world," Taylor says in her notes, and the same can be said of most of the region.

http://www.hollistaylor.com/tay_media-atcl.html

Once you get the feel for dancing in odd rhythms, finding the "1" in 4/4 or 3/4 is a piece of cake. Though Balkan musicians tend to use a pronounced drum beat most of the time, which helps.

Here's a video of ordinary people dancing to 11/16 (Gankino) http://www.dunav.org.il/dunav_video_index.html#all. Edited to add: you have to click on the link to Gankino. The synchronization between audio and video looks a little off ... it looks like the dancers are a hair behind the beat.)

Tonight I'm being handed opportunities to insert shameless plugs for folk dancing (see http://www.folkdance.com/).

[quixotedlm]

Wow!! This is all very interesting and I'm going to read them and try to understand these as much as possible. Thank you so very much!

[opendoor]

..Notes and beat are not, in any way, interchangeable...

dacore, Peaches. May I add, a signature isn't something eternally preexisting. first of all it is a tool to give you an idea how to group, how to stress a couple of notes you see for the first time (the ear does not need any system). So patterns or models were invented, the so called time signatures.

In other words there is no such thing as a 7/4, 5/4, or 4/4 signature! But somehow it gives you the best impression how a molody is accented if you only have a sheet of paper with notes on it. You can write down a simple even tune in a 3/4 signature, but it would look pretty confusing in the sheets, but in 4/4 it may look elegant, without a lot of pauses, flags, points, and other additions to the existing notes.

Actually there are two ways concerning unusal signatures: to define something new as for instance a 7/4 signature, or secondly to simply break it down to smaller abundant elements as a 3/4 plus a 4/4 bar.

[danceronice]

I was trying to be simplistic. Most dancers don't need to know anything about theory or function anyway, just how to hear the one and keep a steady count. Unless you'd doing something odd they're rarely going to play anything with a weird tempo. Whereas if you're playing an instrument, unless you're a soloist you don't chose the tempo or follow what's written absolutely, you watch the guy with the stick up front. Doesn't matter if it says a whole note in 4/4, if he holds it longer, you hold it longer. I don't have to see the sheet music to figure out how to dance to something, just tune out everything but the beat.

[tsb]

frankly. i'm curious as to how the first post can be quoting a previous post which does not exist.

it'd help to have actual music to refer to, but the simplest reason i can think of for something that's seemingly got four beats per measure yet feels like a waltz is because it's actually written in 12/8, with each beat divided into three (3) eighth notes. alternatively, there are an even number of beats, but the composer has put in a series of triplets.

[Steve Pastor]

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=38556

[old dog]

Are there any [songs] specifically which transition between 3/4 and 4/4 though? ...

Here are two examples. There are probably many more out there:

"Isle of Capri" as done by The Gaylords begins with a 3/4 pattern suitable for waltz (at about 108 beats per minute) then switches half-way through to a 4/4 timing suitable for FT (about 132 bpm) for the remainder of the piece.

"A Taste of Honey" as done by The Beatles is mostly in 3/4 but has two or three short passages of 4/4. The tempo remains at about 108 throughout so it is easy to maintain waltz movements in spite of the few odd measures of 4/4. Tony Bennett's rendition also alternates between waltz and foxtrot rhythms.

More often, entire performances of the same tune are done with very different timing and rhythms. A good example is "Moon River" which is best known when performed with a 3/4-time waltz rhythm -- as Henry Mancini wrote it and usually performed it. However, Mancini also did a Moon River Cha Cha version (4/4). Johnny Mercer (who wrote the lyrics for Moon River) arranged and performed a 4/4 version which turns Moon River into a good foxtrot tune. I also have a rendition of Moon River done by Caterina Valente that has a samba rhythm (probably 2/4).

Both Isle of Capri and Taste of Honey have been rendered with a wide variety of tempos and rhythmic patterns. Many have performed Isle... as a Cha Cha; some as Mambo or Rumba. Xavier Cugat did Isle... as a CC and also with a Tango sound. Lonnie Donegan's Isle... would support Quickstep very nicely.

As a 'non-musician,' ballroom dancing has opened my eyes (ears?) to aspects of music to which I was previously relatively insensitive. I've been surprised to discover the range of tempos, timing and rhythmic patterns that may be used in the performance of music -- even the "same" piece of music.

An interesting exercise is to pull up Isle of Capri or Taste of Honey (or some other common/widely-known popular song) in the iTunes store and listen to samples of various performances.

As several other posters have noted, as a dancer I now hear and listen to music in a different way. And, although I am curious about the "theory" behind what I hear, I also agree that a dancer doesn't need to understand the inner workings and theoretical basis for the music we dance with. In fact, as I am beginning to learn more about the theory and structure of music, I can see how this knowledge could possibly interfere with learning to dance. This may help explain why musicians tend to have more difficulty learning to dance than one would expect. [An issue for another thread.]