Does your coach have to be a headliner?

[pygmalion]

I was just browsing through some ballroom dance camp web sites, and I noticed one pretty obvious thing. Every one of the featured instructors was a household name, at least in the ballroom community.

That made me wonder. How many people out there are choosing coaches based on name recognition? Or if, say for example, a serious dance competitor chooses a "no-name" coach, are they at a disadvantage? In short, does one's coach need to have name recognition in order to help his/her competitive students? And do social dance students benefit from having "famous" coaches? Why or why not?

[Chris Stratton]

My personal prefence is to find a capable, available, local coach who is a faithfull 'descendent' of a big name authority that they bring to visit their studio every once in a while. That way you can get the advantages of working with the best, the reinforcement and day-to-day support of having someone accessable, and have the two sources be generally consistent.

[Laura]

Some people seem to be really in to the big names, and if you mention to them that you are trained by someone who isn't a ballroom household word then they look at you askance and even denigrate your training. I tire of such attitudes, especially when they are expressed amongst social dancers and hobbyist competitors. In other words, there's no cause to be snobby. That said, the people at the top had to learn a LOT LOT LOT to get there, so it makes sense to go to them as it suits your level, interest, goals, and budget. A serious competitor on the National level would have someone like that as their main coach. A social dancer might go to a workshop by one of them every so often to gain some new insights and inspiration.

[Warren J. Dew]

I'd note that it makes sense to overemphasize big names in a dance camp. Even if the organizer happens to know someone who's not a big name who is an excellent coach, the people who are considering going to the dance camp are not going to recognize the name.

Hm ... is Victor Kanevsky a big name?

[pygmalion]

So, then, a hypothetical question. How does one break into the circuit of excellent, but not necessaruly well-known, coaches? nd is there any advantage for "scrub" (i.e. fairly mediocre) dancer?

[Angelo]

Hm ... is Victor Kanevsky a big name?

I don't know if he is considered a "big" name (I'm pretty sure he's very well known) but he is a damn good coach! Eugene Katsevman and Maria Manusova have been his students for ten years. His schools also seem to be a factory for top notch youth dancers in the New York area.

[Warren J. Dew]

That's kind of why I brought Kanevsky up. I think he's a good example of someone who might be a "ballroom household word" on the strength of his coaching, rather than on his competition record.

[SDsalsaguy]

Same for Ruud Vermeij or Maximiliaan Winkelhuis.

[Vince A]

I was just browsing through some ballroom dance camp web sites, and I noticed one pretty obvious thing. Every one of the featured instructors was a household name, at least in the ballroom community.

That made me wonder. How many people out there are choosing coaches based on name recognition? Or if, say for example, a serious dance competitor chooses a "no-name" coach, are they at a disadvantage? In short, does one's coach need to have name recognition in order to help his/her competitive students? And do social dance students benefit from having "famous" coaches? Why or why not?
It's directly proportional to the speed at which YOU want to get to the top:
Big names, big bucks, big results!

[Chris Stratton]

Big names, big bucks, big results!

Hardly. Many of the big names are worth the money, but a many of the little names play an important role too. And the absolute last thing you would want is to end up with a big name who takes your money, but doesn't take you seriously. Those situations aren't necessarily the fault of the pro, as much as of someone who thinks that money is the key ingredient to success, rather than being just an enabling factor.

[Angelo]

I'm pretty sure VinceA was being sarcastic

[pygmalion]

He's good for that. :wink: He makes a good point, though. A lot of people hold that misconception.

[Kitty]

My personal prefence is to find a capable, available, local coach who is a faithfull 'descendent' of a big name authority that they bring to visit their studio every once in a while. That way you can get the advantages of working with the best, the reinforcement and day-to-day support of having someone accessable, and have the two sources be generally consistent.

yeah, consistent is good.
I have to live with the fact that that the dude that teaches the pre-champ latin class I'm taking loves to contradict other teachers just for the sake of it.

[Kitty]

I'd note that it makes sense to overemphasize big names in a dance camp. Even if the organizer happens to know someone who's not a big name who is an excellent coach, the people who are considering going to the dance camp are not going to recognize the name.

Hm ... is Victor Kanevsky a big name?

thats the contradicting dude I'm talking about. He thinks he is a big name. Do you think so?

[Angelo]

I'd note that it makes sense to overemphasize big names in a dance camp. Even if the organizer happens to know someone who's not a big name who is an excellent coach, the people who are considering going to the dance camp are not going to recognize the name.

Hm ... is Victor Kanevsky a big name?

oops thats the contradicting dude I'm talking about. He thinks he is a big name. Do you think so?

Keep reading. Maybe a later post will answer your question

[Chris Stratton]

Possible personality quirks aside (I've never met him, and am hardly in a position to point fingers about being contrary) if the category is 'Latin Dance Academy' then Kanevesky's outfit has to near the top of the list.

[Kitty]

Hm ... is Victor Kanevsky a big name?

I don't know if he is considered a "big" name (I'm pretty sure he's very well known) but he is a damn good coach! Eugene Katsevman and Maria Manusova have been his students for ten years. His schools also seem to be a factory for top notch youth dancers in the New York area.

His schools offer lots of classes but he himself only teaches one of them (and not even every time). So maybe it is not as much him as it is his choice of teachers. Also that's the only school that I know in NY that offers lots of serious(!) latin dance classes for kids. That may be the reason why the the school has trained so many high level dancers: those dancers are dancing since they are 10, and when they are 20 they are top notch.

[DanceAm]

Victor K. has also been working with John King and partner Ana Caccone (sp?). They just won National Rising Star American Rhythm. Victor has a proven track record.

We try to work with John about once a month. Victor has made some changes in him and I can see over time how John's focus has evolved as well.

But mostly, we work with a local teacher who has been out of dance for a few years having kids, I would say she is virtually unknown in the grand scheme, but regular lessons with her have really improved both our Smooth and Rhythm. She is starting to be in demand as we make our rounds to different social dances and other dancers have seen such an improvement in us. The new dancers who don't know us want to know where we can teach them. Of course they are surprised when they find out we are only amateurs ourselves.

[Chris Stratton]

It is of course not always clear to what degree a reputation in one narrow area should imply quality in a different, but related one.

For example, "Harvard University" is probably considered to be one of the world's leading educational institutions. But it's unclear exactly how much of that stature their open-to-all continuing education division, aka the extension school, deserves to share. Of the two classes I took through that, one was excellent and the other okay but hardly outstanding. I wouldn't be suprised if some might say the same thing even about courses within the undergraduate program of Harvard College itself.

[Angelo]

[

His schools offer lots of classes but he himself only teaches one of them (and not even every time). So maybe it is not as much him as it is his choice of teachers. Also that's the only school that I know in NY that offers lots of serious(!) latin dance classes for kids. That may be the reason why the the school has trained so many high level dancers: those dancers are dancing since they are 10, and when they are 20 they are top notch.


Those kids are top notch before they reach the age of 20. I've seen too many of them impress the hell out of me to belive it's some kind of fluke. I've also met and had lessons with Victor, and I am sure those teachers in his schools are teaching HIS way. In my own personal experience, the best latin coaching lesson I've ever had came from Victor Kanevsky and I've had some with past blackpool and U.S. latin champions.

[SDsalsaguy]

Also keep in mind that is was through dancing pro-am with Victor that Beata came to Michael's attention.

[Kitty]

Those kids are top notch before they reach the age of 20. I've seen too many of them impress the hell out of me to belive it's some kind of fluke. I've also met and had lessons with Victor, and I am sure those teachers in his schools are teaching HIS way. In my own personal experience, the best latin coaching lesson I've ever had came from Victor Kanevsky and I've had some with past blackpool and U.S. latin champions.

I'm not giving him less credit then what he deserves. His choice of teachers for his school is HIS choice. His students impress me too and I didn't say it was a fluke. In many other schools kids don't start when they are 10. I think this does have an impact. The fact that Kanevsky's school makes serious training available for kids of all ages is a big deal!
About teachers teaching his way - well, first of all they are all Russian, and second they probably take coaching with Kanevsky themselves.

[Angelo]

I'm not giving him less credit then what he deserves. His choice of teachers for his school is HIS choice. His students impress me too and I didn't say it was a fluke. In many other schools kids don't start when they are 10. I think this does have an impact. The fact that Kanevsky's school makes serious training available for kids of all ages is a big deal!
About teachers teaching his way - well, first of all they are all Russian, and second they probably take coaching with Kanevsky themselves.

Kitty, I didn't mean to give the impression that I felt you weren't giving him due credit. I was trying to make the point that although Victor does not teach every class himself, the teachers that do are probably teaching in a way that he approves of. In honesty, I have never been to a group class at one of his schools but from having met him, I believe he would be sure that anyone who comes to his school for lessons would be taught in manner consistent with his own teaching philosophy, even if he wasn't personally teaching them.

[Chris Stratton]

I believe he would be sure that anyone who comes to his school for lessons would be taught in manner consistent with his own teaching philosophy, even if he wasn't personally teaching them.

If he actually manages that, he'd accomplish something that I've never seen at any other studio.

[Angelo]

I believe he would be sure that anyone who comes to his school for lessons would be taught in manner consistent with his own teaching philosophy, even if he wasn't personally teaching them.

If he actually manages that, he'd accomplish something that I've never seen at any other studio.

Well, I don't have any proof but I've never seen any other studio produce as many quality students on a consistent basis the way his does

[Chris Stratton]

Not to be too picky, but how can you evaluate consistency without knowing their failure/dropout/loose interst rate?

[Kitty]

I believe he would be sure that anyone who comes to his school for lessons would be taught in manner consistent with his own teaching philosophy, even if he wasn't personally teaching them.

If he actually manages that, he'd accomplish something that I've never seen at any other studio.

I've seen Kanevsky and two other teachers from his studio teach, and I thought the three of them taught very differently. His students always say the pre-champ class is very different depending on who is teaching it.

Question to both Angelo and Chris: what do you mean by "his teaching philosophy"?

[Angelo]

Not to be too picky, but how can you evaluate consistency without knowing their failure/dropout/loose interst rate?


You can be picky if you want. I used the word consistent based upon watching many of the students in competiton in various age categories and being informed that each of those couples had acheived high rankings and placings in national and international competition. I didn't verify those claims since I had no reason to belive that they were false and the quality of the students' dancing was high enough for me to believe it could be true.

Is there some other word you would have preferred I use in place of "consistent"?

[Chris Stratton]

I'm yet to see a studio with more than one teacher where they can all agree on, execute, and communicate a consistent idea of how dancing should be done. Between the higher level teachers it's usually a lack of precise agreement, and between them and the junior instructors it's generally a lack of being able to demonstrate and communicate things quite as accurately. Having a head teacher to provide overall guidance and inspiration is great (and many do work hard to try to pass their ideas down to employees), but the biggest factor is the actual person you study with, not where you take lessons.

[Angelo]

I've seen Kanevsky and two other teachers from his studio teach, and I thought the three of them taught very differently. His students always say the pre-champ class is very different depending on who is teaching it.

Question to both Angelo and Chris: what do you mean by "his teaching philosophy"?

Ok, so now its clear that my presumption is false. No big deal.
By a "teaching philosophy" I mean that very specific attributes are taught to students in a heirarchical fashion so that the learning process follows some kind of order from basic to advanced. Sort of like having a curriculum in school. I won't presume to speak for Victor as to the details of what his personal teaching philosophy is. If he is teaching a class that you are taking you can ask him yourself.

[Chris Stratton]

You can be pick if you want. I used the word consistent based upon watching many of the students in competiton in various age categories and being informed that each of those couples had acheived high rankings and placings in national and international competition. I didn't verify those claims since I had no reason to belive that they were false and the quality of the students' dancing was high enough for me to believe it could be true.

Is there some other word you would have preferred I use in place of "consistent"?

It's well known that they turn out many fine dancers. But this gives us no information about the chances of any given student entering the school to make it big - so far in this discussion there has been no information about how many students get lost along the way.

Kanevsky consistently produces good couples
vs.
Kanevsky consistently turns people into stars

Both are valid uses of of the word, but very different. Someone shopping for a place to study really needs to think about both meanings.

[Angelo]

You can be pick if you want. I used the word consistent based upon watching many of the students in competiton in various age categories and being informed that each of those couples had acheived high rankings and placings in national and international competition. I didn't verify those claims since I had no reason to belive that they were false and the quality of the students' dancing was high enough for me to believe it could be true.

Is there some other word you would have preferred I use in place of "consistent"?

It's well known that they turn out many fine dancers. But this gives us no information about the chances of any given student entering the school to make it big - so far in this discussion there has been no information about how many students get lost along the way.

Kanevsky consistently produces good couples
vs.
Kanevsky consistently turns people into stars

Both are valid uses of of the word, but very different. Someone shopping for a place to study really needs to think about both meanings.


The chances of any given student "making it big" depends upon a variety of factors and the student may have as much or more influence on that than the teacher. Not every student who enters the school may have a desire to "make it big". Even if you wanted to assign a probability to whether a given student entering Kanevsky's school will "make it big" you would need quite a bit of data and pretty accurate model of how to "make it big" in Latin dancing. Good luck.

All I know is that in my limited experience I've seen far more quality students from his school than I have from any other. They all had the good basic technique that I strive for in my own dance performance.

[Kitty]

The chances that a any given student "making it big" depends upon a variety of factors and the student may have as much or more influence on that than the teacher. Not every student who enters the school may have a desire to "make it big". Even if you wanted to assign a probability to whether a given student entering Kanevsky's school will "make it big" you would need quite a bit of data and pretty accurate model of how to "make it big" in Latin dancing. Good luck.

All I know is that in my limited experience I've seen far more quality students from his school than I have from any any other. They all had the good basic technique that I strive for in my own dance performance.

I would put it this way: If a student makes it big in anything it is mostly because of the student, not as much his teacher. True that teacher can inspire, but a student who doesn't want to work hard and achieve will not achive, no matter what teacher he has. The student that wants to achieve will seek out proper training eventually. So the number of top couples Kanevsky has produced may be due to the kind of students he gets (little kids of Russian parents).

[Angelo]

I would put it this way: If a student makes it big in anything it is mostly because of the student, not as much his teacher. True that teacher can inspire, but a student who doesn't want to work hard and achieve will not achive, no matter what teacher he has. The student that wants to achieve will seek out proper training eventually. So the number of top couples Kanevsky has produced may be due to the kind of students he gets (little kids of Russian parents).

I agree with much of what you say, but the teacher does have some influence. If a student works very hard at the wrong things because his/her teacher was unable to provide them with appropriate information, they will likewise not get very far (this I've found out the hard way).

[marykomatsu]

Learning can come from unlikely places -including dancers who are not even as good as you are. I have learned things from all kinds of people pro and am. There are many roads to Rome.

BUT, the differences in taking from a so-so pro and a big deal pro are night and day, IMO. While it is true that some people cannot learn much, no matter how good the teacher, at the end of the day there is usually a reason these pros have the "name" and it can help you.

The more advanced a dancer you are, the better the teacher must be. After all, someone has to give lessons even to the top competing pros, and there are not that many teachers qualified to do so. At a beginner level, pretty much any competent coach can provide value, but as you change, other things should change too.

I do strongly feel that no matter how big the "Name" if you are not comfortable with them than forget it, you will suffer.

Dance camps need the "names" to attract the $$$, so that is a separate thing.

[Chris Stratton]

The more advanced a dancer you are, the better the teacher must be.

That's the general wisdom, and there is a lot of truth to it, however:

- Getting beginners off to a really good start requires quite a bit of teacher skill. Since beginners often get 2nd rate teachers, most people waste a bit of time muddling around before they really start learning to do things right.

- Advanced dancers are in a better position to do self-coaching, solving their own problems by feel and video analysis, and learning things by obeserving other dancers. But of course they pretty much all have top coaches too!

[DanceAm]

I have to say, success is completely on the person, but what they are successful in is dependant upon opportunity. The Russian kids remark indicates that, what are your chances if you are not Russian? How many will actually get the chance if they don't live in the NE or don't have the money to get them there for coachings. Or know the right people.

But all successful people have been found to have very similar traits and it is believed that many successful people would be successful in something else had that been what they pursued.

If the Soviet Union had not crumbled and allowed dancers to leave Russia and come the US, would Eugene and Maria have been where they are now? Would they have had the same opportunity in Russia if the borders were still closed? That is hard to say, but I know this, they would probably be successful at anything they did, but in Russia dancers are a dime a dozen, coming to the US gave them more opportunity.

[Chris Stratton]

One of the suprising things about certain ballroom programs though is that you see people achieving at least moderate success, who's pre-dance lives had not the slightest shred of evidence that a visual performance activity might be in their future. Different programs seem to have differing degrees of willingness/ability to defy stereotypes in this manner.

[Vince A]

Excerpt from marykomatsu:
"some people cannot learn much" Big results???

"no matter how big the "Name" Big name???

"attract the $$$" Big bucks???

I see we've come back around to my original comments!!!!!!!!!

[Taita]

Ok, I'll drop out of lurk mode for a sec....

Learning is a function of both the Student and the Teacher. Many years of lessons have taught me this. You need both.

Since I have taken his group classes and I have had the privelige of being coached by him on a fairly regular basis, I can definitively tell you this: His couple would have achieved much left to their own devices. But I doubt they would have achieved as much as they have as quickly as they have w/o him. Over the years I have had many teachers and many top coaches and not one of them teaches at the level that he teaches at.

Now back to your regularly scheduled franchise bashing...

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks for having dropped out of lurk mode for us Taita! :lol:

[Chris Stratton]

Jumping back a few pages,

Is "Julius Kaiser" considered a big name?

[Laura]

Sure.

(He trained my Standard coach for a while :-) )

[pygmalion]

Now back to your regularly scheduled franchise bashing...

:lol: :lol: Hey. I haven't bashed franchises yet today ... It's time! :wink: :lol: