Tango Music for Dummies

[Shandy]

Love reading the music/musicality threads but within seconds I'm floundering as I don't have any musical background - I just sort of "like and dance to what I hear!". Recently, I've been sitting down and actively listening to the music and that's definitely increased my appreciation, including tunes I thought I knew really well. Mostly that's enough but I really would like to understand more (if I can).

I've been told to listen to "phrases that are repeated", "its like sentences", "listen to phrase A, repeated, B, now A, now D". I nod wisely but I really don't have a clue what they're talking about. I feel like I'm 3 years old , just learning to read and then given War and Peace and told either a) look what you'll be able to understand one day or, worse: b) read it!

Anyone interested in a thread that takes a step-by-step approach to analysing the structure of tango music. Or maybe somebody could give me details of earlier threads or websites that could help.

An approach that worked in salsa was to take a well-known salsa tune with a classic/simple structure, find a good youtube clip and then discuss its structure, beat, melody, harmony and rhythms. (But I "don't know, what I don't know" :confused: so the musicians would be the best people to decide the appropriate headings). Some people posted clips of dancers, dancing to the particular piece of music to emphasis the discussion on the music.

Over time, we could develop quite a wealth of knowledge and bank of information for tango dancers interested in developing their knowledge of tango music.

[AndaBien]

...if I can.

I've been told to listen to "phrases that are repeated", "its like sentences", "listen to phrase A, repeated, B, now A, now D". I nod wisely but I really don't have a clue what they're talking about. I feel like I'm 3 years old , just learning to read and then given War and Peace and told either a) look what you'll be able to understand one day or, worse: b) read it!...

First, you can.

The explanation you received was good. For dancers that are non-musicians, that's about all you really need to know.

Listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UCIRrGpgcU

The A part starts at the beginning (:06 seconds), then repeats at about :15.

Then the B part starts at about :24 and repeats at about :32. It repeats again at :41 but then it has a 2nd ending that is different from the first two times.

After that comes a C part the also repeats.

The first time you ever hear a tune you will know, after you've heard the A part, that it will be repeated, so that give you some instant familiarity. Same goes for the B part.

I think this is good for leaders, because they can fit their choreography to the phrases (parts).

The most simple folk tunes are nothing more than AA, BB, AA, BB, etc. Tango music is generally more complicated than that, also having C parts, 2nd ending, codas, etc.

I you really want a better understanding, you'll need to sit down with some one who knows music and get a fuller explanation. I really don't think it can be explained well in this forum. And, someone will, obviously, take exception to what I just said.

[Mladenac]

IU3V6zNER4g

not about tango, but it will improve the art of listening

[newbie]

Now it is not as important as you may imagine for leaders. I candidly asked to a BsAs teacher who was explaining these B A B A things to me, "ok, so if I led a certain series of ganchos when A came the first time, then I have to lead the same series of ganchos when A comes back?" and the answer was an horrified no.
It looks like, if you stop between A and B, if you dance slowly during the adagio part and keep your kick-and-trick steps for the fantasia part, then as a leader you're doing your job more or less ok.

[AndaBien]

..."ok, so if I led a certain series of ganchos when A came the first time, then I have to lead the same series of ganchos when A comes back?" and the answer was an horrified no...

I wouldn't think so. But, if the music has a distinctive or emphatic moment in it, and most do, the leader will know that the moment will occur again and will be able to know when. Then he can choose a step to fit that music.

[Zoopsia59]

But, if the music has a distinctive or emphatic moment in it, and most do, the leader will know that the moment will occur again and will be able to know when. Then he can choose a step to fit that music.

I would think that's pretty advanced leading. Most leaders I know need to be spending much more energy navigating and leading properly, and less energy figuring out where they might be able to throw in a specific move coming up in the music.

Especially since even if they pre-plan it based on the music, floor conditions may not allow for it in the moment but they've already got it in their head to do it and are no longer ready to improvise.

Nothing's worse than an idea when it's the only one you have.

Familiarity with specific pieces of music through steady long term practice of tango can achieve the same ability to foresee the music and probably works out better than trying to analyze an unfamiliar piece on the fly through music theory, IMO.

[Steve Pastor]

step-by-step approach to analysing the structure of tango music.

I have found that Argentine Tango has a lot in common with West Coast Swing. The music is different, but it is also the same in many ways.

The information at this page applies to Argentine Tango as well as much of what you might do in WCS. http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/feel_the_music.html

Hearing the beat has interesting material, but you may want ot skip over the info on swing, although there are many references to "swing" in tango.
http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/music_and_timing.html

Hitting the breaks http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/hit_the_breaks.html

I am also going to highly recommend that you begin to learn a bit about reading sheet music. But, that is only if you really really want to get serious about this.
TodoTango has both mp3 and sheet music examples of many AT songs.

[AndaBien]

...I am also going to highly recommend that you begin to learn a bit about reading sheet music. But, that is only if you really really want to get serious about this. TodoTango has both mp3 and sheet music examples of many AT songs.

YouTube has many videos on how to read music. I don't know of any specific ones to recommend, so just scout around until you find something that makes sense to you.

[chanchan]

Now it is not as important as you may imagine for leaders. I candidly asked to a BsAs teacher who was explaining these B A B A things to me, "ok, so if I led a certain series of ganchos when A came the first time, then I have to lead the same series of ganchos when A comes back?" and the answer was an horrified no.

The same music can be interpreted in many different ways, and, in particular, the steps are probably the least important thing. But this doesn't mean that any interpretation is good: you have to follow the music in a way or another.
The repetition of A e B doesn't mean that you have to repeat the same sequence of steps, but they are a great help for you to predict the evolution of the melody and following it better.

It looks like, if you stop between A and B, if you dance slowly during the adagio part and keep your kick-and-trick steps for the fantasia part, then as a leader you're doing your job more or less ok.No. It is better than not listening at all, but I wouldn't say that by limiting musicality to that means you are doing your job more or less ok.

[ant]

I am also going to highly recommend that you begin to learn a bit about reading sheet music.

Would you suggest both the rhythm and melody sections or just the rhythm section to begin with?

[AndaBien]

Would you suggest both the rhythm and melody sections or just the rhythm section to begin with?

I would suggest starting with musical notation, measures/bars, 8-bar phrases, repeated sections, 2nd endings, for a general structure of music.

[Steve Pastor]

I feel like I'm 3 years old , just learning to read
Hey, I'm taking an African dance class and feeling the same way. Cool.

[Shandy]

Thanks, Just home from work (no forums) and off out to tango tonight - but I'll be back soon to try and get my head around all this later.

[Steve Pastor]

Take a look at El Choclo http://www.todotango.com/english/las_obras/partitura.aspx?id=24

This is third of currently listed "most requested".
I think it has the benifit of a fairly simple represenation of what we are hearing, although make note of the fact that I am not a real musician!

The bass clef (lower of the two) follows a pretty simple looking pattern. If you cross reference with habanera (music) in wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habanera_(music) you can get an idea of how one of the basic elements of tango is used. It's a straighforward rhythm.

Note that the variations in this bass line, or rhythm, includes pauses of different durations. And they usually come at the end of every other line.

So, I guess in answer to one question, I would start with rhythm, because it is often simplier.

[tangomonkey]

El Choclo is a very good piece to study. As Steve said the rhythms are very characteristic of tango and milonga, and the way they are used helps define the sections.

It is difficult to do as you ask, Shandy. Tango music is relatively simple and not difficult to analyze – provided you have basic musical (specifically theory) training. Without that, how you approached salsa is a good way to get to know tango too.

IMHO you do not need to know the structure of the music (form, phrases, melodies, rhythms) to be a good tango dancer, but it helps if you do. I enjoy knowing this info but don't consciously think about it when I dance. You said you “like to dance to what I hear” – that’s all you need. Just keep listening to a wide range of “orchestras” and pieces of music. Think about the character, notice how the mood changes. You will begin to hear the form (structure), phrasing and the themes (melodies) and rhythms. You will also begin to notice when and how the themes and rhythms are varied. Think about the many ways you could respond if you were dancing.

A suggestion: Pick a favourite tango piece and listen to the phrases. (El Choclo is a good choice). Then try to identify the different sections, how they differ in mood from each other, and when they are repeated. Listen for the phrasing (the melodies) and their rhythms. And how they are accompanied by the other instruments. And how rhythm is used there too. Then listen to as many different versions of the piece you can get your hands on. Every “orchestra” plays the standards differently. El Choclo, composed by Angel Villoldo, is different when played by De Angelis, Canaro (Vocal), Di Sarli, D’Arienzo, and so on. I could tell you in specific musical terms why and how they differ, but that is not important. This approach will also help you identify one “orchestra” from another. Each one has a style and sound of their own. When dancing, react to the music as you hear it. Let the time spent actively listening and thinking work for you. Let your sub-conscious react.

You said something about a step by step approach to analyzing the music. What I do now and again (being the overly analytical type I am) is the following. I get the score (actually a piano reduction) from todotango.com and mark the main sections (A, B, C…). They are usually visually obvious. Then I identify the phrases by looking at the themes (melodies). Usually there is a call-and-response character to them. (Hard to explain, has to do with the character of the themes and the harmonies…) I look at how rhythms are used. I identify what distinguishes one section from another in terms of themes, rhythms, key signatures, harmonies. If the harmonies sound interesting I’ll do a full harmonic analysis too, identifying each harmony (chord) used and how the harmonic changes help define the phrasing and sections. Then I listen to all the recordings I have of the piece, following along with the printed music, and note how each “orchestra” adapts it to their unique style.

Overkill? Sure. Necessary? No. Worthwhile? Yes. Enjoyable? Very.

[ant]

. Then I identify the phrases by looking at the themes (melodies). Usually there is a call-and-response character to them. (Hard to explain, has to do with the character of the themes and the harmonies…)

That gels with my understanding. Although there are repeats within a track, between one half of the track and and the next half it is the relationship between each pair of phrases and that pair to the next when they form an overarching phrase that is just as important and probabally easier for us to use as dancers. Whereby if you think of the first phrase (or pair) as asking a question or setting a scene, the second phrase answers the question or provides the contrast to the scene. So the first phrase will help formulate the feeling you may wish to include when dancing the second phrase.

[bordertangoman]

I would recommend Una Emocion Tanturi/campos

there is two 30s instrumental movements before the singing begins and the singing is very lyrical. I think as far as listenablity goes this has it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz8R_bM5Z4w

[newbie]

No. It is better than not listening at all, but I wouldn't say that by limiting musicality to that means you are doing your job more or less ok.

Structure-wise you'll be doing ok. Better than most of the leaders whom I can see in the weekly practica/milonga we have in our neck of the woods.. Musicality is still something else, you can wish to lead the follower on the violin while stepping on the cello and being inspired by the band, but that is being Gavito, I mean however high your musicality is (or you think is) there will always be a higher level. But I think the OP was just asking about what to do with the B A B A things.

[tangotime]

I would recommend Una Emocion Tanturi/campos

there is two 30s instrumental movements before the singing begins and the singing is very lyrical. I think as far as listenablity goes this has it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz8R_bM5Z4w


Now thats what I would call, a clean and clear, precise demo. beautifully executed .

[bordertangoman]

Now thats what I would call, a clean and clear, precise demo. beautifully executed .

you can also three different interpretations..

[opendoor]

hi Shandy, let me first post some resources that might be of interest and hook on to the discussion later (sorry, in a hurry).

a musicality workshop by a guy I dont know youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=Uxi7WFlQAf0

the musicality workshop by Joaquín Amenábar youtube.com/watch?v=jROT1ipMySc

Simba´s material on hearing simbatango.com/2009/12/19/what-to-listen-for-in-tango/

[dchester]

Anyone interested in a thread that takes a step-by-step approach to analysing the structure of tango music. Or maybe somebody could give me details of earlier threads or websites that could help.

I've debated whether to attempt to address your question, as it is rather difficult to explain. These terms/concepts (like "phrases" and "sentences") don't have the same meaning to everyone, which makes it difficult to be sure if you are really understanding what others are really trying to say. Also, not all songs (whether tango, or most any other genre) are structured the same (assuming we could all even agree on what the "structure" on a song means). In any case, I've decided to give it a shot, with hope that we won't get bogged down too much over debates about terminology. The important things are the concepts.

For me, my guiding principles are that I dance to what I hear, and what I feel. I couldn't care less about what is actually written on the sheet music, even though I do (or at least had) a music background. However, I do use music concepts to guide what I do. It's just that how I feel the music, might not match what's on the score (sheet music).

OK, the first thing I'll start with is the "beat". For the purpose of this conversation I'll only use the terms, the slow beat and the quick beat (even though there are other beats, even quicker). The slow beat is what I base everything on, and will be the main unit I'll use to describe things in this post. Two quick beats take the same amount of time as one slow beat. A common 4 beat rhythm is Slow - Slow - quick quick - Slow. Just hoping to show the difference.


Now onto the main structure (based on beats):
I'm going to (mostly) talk about the typical or common type of tango song, but keep in mind that many (if not most) songs will vary from this, but they all vary in different ways.

The typical tango song is of the type I will describe as A B A B A. As you may guess, the A section typically occurs 3 times and the B section typically occurs twice. BTW, I a lot of people call this type of song, an A B A song, regardless of how many times each section is repeated.

In tango, each of these sections is typically 32 slow beats long (although a common variation is that some songs will only have 16 beats for the "B" section). Most often, the underlying rhythm will be noticeably different between the A section and the B section, or sometimes, it's just the melody (or lead) that changes between sections.

Also, there may (or may not) be a brief intro at the beginning of the song (1 to 16 beats). There may also be 2 or 4 beats in between the A and/or B sections of the song, but I think more songs go right into the next section without any extra beats. There may also be something added on for the ending of the song, while others might slow down, or play some other games with the ending. One artist who is unique is Rodriguez, as what "typically" would be the last beat of the song is "missing".

Another interesting thing about tango songs, is that typically, when there is a singer, he won't start until the second time in the "A" section of the song.

Now I'll talk about some terminology within each section (32 beats). To be honest, I'm not sure how much of this stuff is really important, as I don't really think about most of this when dancing, but you asked about it, so I'll try to explain it.

Sentence - Basically the 32 beat section can be divided into two 16 beat sentences (that's the most common usage of that term that I've heard, but like I said, I don't really think about this when dancing).
Phrase - The 32 beat section can also be divided up into four 8 beat phrases. Again, we are counting slow beats. Thus a "sentence" consists of two 8 beat "phrases".
Sometimes the first three phrases are very similar, with the 4th phrase being more different, (partly as a way to create a little tension in the song (to be resolved), and also to facilitate transitioning to the next section). In other songs, the last two phrases could be very different (with respect to the melody).

As for me, I tend to mostly think in terms of 4 slow beats. For me internally, I think of it as a measure of the song in 4/4 time (music terminology). I know some people think in terms of two slow beats, 4 quick beats, or even 8 slow beats (a phrase). Occasionally I might also think about the phrase, but only in terms of two measures (not a single entity).

The 4 beat measure is really what I think about in deciding my step rhythms. At times, I think of the step rhythms as the missing percussion (drum beats) in the song. Tango songs normally do not have percussion/drums, which is why some people have trouble finding the beat.

Everything I've talked about thus far, has to do with the rhythm. Another aspect has to do with the melody (or lead), vs the accompaniment (the other instruments that are not playing the melody). Generally speaking, the lead (or melody) does one thing, while the accompaniment (sort of) does another. The accompaniment generally will keep a strict rhythm, pitch, etc., while the lead may occasionally vary away, although not for very much or very long. Most people will take their step patterns or cues strictly from the accompaniment, some will be influenced mostly by the lead, while others will bounce back and forth (and even jump between various instruments for their cues (Poema is one such song)). Typically, I'll distinguish between the lead (melody), the bass, and the rest of the accompaniment.

At the end of the day as a leader, you just want to create interesting step patterns that accent the song. Of course, every beat doesn't deserve an accent, and there are many correct answers for what should be accented (or stepped on).


Here are a couple songs that follow the more or less "typical" song that I tried to describe. Neither have any intro, so they start right with the "A" section. Also, there are no extra beats in between each section. Poema does have one variation, in that it's "B" section only has 16 beats instead of 32.

Bahia Blanca: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvQ3wgo9jLc

A few comments:


Chicho does his first step at the start of the second phrase, then pauses for the next three beats (the rest of the "measure", then makes his second step at the start of the next "measure".
The first "B" section starts around 0:36 into the video.
The second "A" section starts around 1:10 into the video.
The second "B" section starts around 1:44 into the video.
The third "A" section starts around 2:18 into the video.

PvQ3wgo9jLc



Poema: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgbt0oD-MnA

Comments:


I couldn't help noticing that like is the prior video, the first step is done at the start of the second phrase (the 9th slow beat), and the next step is done at the start of the next measure (the 13th beat of the song).
The first "B" section starts around 0:40 into the video (only 16 beats, instead of 32 beats).
The second "A" section starts around 0:56 into the video (where the singing starts).
The second "B" section starts around 2:02 into the video (again only 16 beats).
The third "A" section starts around 2:18 into the video.

Pgbt0oD-MnA


I hope this helps, at least a little.

[tangomonkey]

Well done!

[UKDancer]

Chicho does his first step at the start of the second phrase

I enjoyed your post, and found your exposition regarding typical song structure crystal clear, so thank you.

Then I watched the first VT clip, and can't stop laughing. Their obvious technical facility aside, if I EVER start dancing like that, please will someone tell me, and I'll go home, and promise never to dance tango again. I've never seen anything so grotesque: poor Di Sarli, did he ever guess that you could do a both-feet sacada by just jumping at your follower, and the whole preceding section was just more-and-more outrageous. Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should. It's made my day, but ...

[dchester]

I enjoyed your post, and found your exposition regarding typical song structure crystal clear, so thank you. Thanks for the kind words.

Then I watched the first VT clip, and can't stop laughing. Their obvious technical facility aside, if I EVER start dancing like that, please will someone tell me, and I'll go home, and promise never to dance tango again. I've never seen anything so grotesque: poor Di Sarli, did he ever guess that you could do a both-feet sacada by just jumping at your follower, and the whole preceding section was just more-and-more outrageous. Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should. It's made my day, but ...
I was wondering how long it would take me to learn how to lead that triple gancho they did.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Shandy]

El Choclo is a very good piece to study. As Steve said the rhythms are very characteristic of tango and milonga, and the way they are used helps define the sections.



A suggestion: Pick a favourite tango piece and listen to the phrases. (El Choclo is a good choice). Then try to identify the different sections, how they differ in mood from each other, and when they are repeated. Listen for the phrasing (the melodies) and their rhythms. And how they are accompanied by the other instruments. And how rhythm is used there too. Then listen to as many different versions of the piece you can get your hands on. Every “orchestra” plays the standards differently. El Choclo, composed by Angel Villoldo, is different when played by De Angelis, Canaro (Vocal), Di Sarli, D’Arienzo, and so on. I could tell you in specific musical terms why and how they differ, but that is not important. This approach will also help you identify one “orchestra” from another. Each one has a style and sound of their own. When dancing, react to the music as you hear it. Let the time spent actively listening and thinking work for you. Let your sub-conscious react.




I LOVE my Spotify. 33 different version after taking out all the full-string orchestra versions plus the ones that start singing within the first few seconds. Includes four different versions from Francisco Canaro.

Overkill maybe, but my mum told me to learn something new everyday!!

[Shandy]

So many thanks to everyone so far!

Dchester: "a little help" lol - that was so clear and helpful, lots and lots to digest. It took up all my screen and whilst reading it, I was thinking how brilliant, I sort of understand it but I wish there were examples, scrolled down and WHAM. Took a workshop with Ney Melo in London and he did his chair-musicality thing (actually, that was the straw that convinced me that I wanted to 'run-the-extra-mile') on developing my understanding of the music. The dancing is a separate matter, even though we all know they're related.

Opendoor, thanks for those resources: hopefully some posters will be able to use them to develop this thread.

[bastet]

dchester that was awesome. It's has similarities to the basic musicality lesson I do.

I'll add on, listening to the music and understanding the basic things like phrasing is great, and then translating it to movement gets more difficult.

One of the first things I usually ask people to do in actual practice is concentrate on beginnings and ending and acccenting those. I usually ask people to walk and just stop and do simple weight changes or pauses as they hear end of phrase approaching so they can start to get the idea of closure/resolution and begin again as they hear a new beginning of phrase and then build on it with other more complicated movement. I've always thought it a good exercise at least to help put the theory in to practice.

[tangomonkey]

I LOVE my Spotify. 33 different version after taking out all the full-string orchestra versions plus the ones that start singing within the first few seconds. Includes four different versions from Francisco Canaro.

Overkill maybe, but my mum told me to learn something new everyday!!

The next step is to see how well El Choclo fits into dchester's (excellently described!) tango framework. Is the structure A-B-A-B-A? Is there an introduction and/or coda (an ending bit that is different than the other sections)? Are the sections (the A and B parts) 32 beats long? How are they divided - into two 16 beat phrases, or four 8 beat ones, or something else? How are the sections different - rhythm, melody, mood...? When sections are repeated are they varied, and if so how?

I've done the analysis on El Choclo and am familiar with most of the recorded versions by the main Golden Age bands. And I have a few recordings by modern ensembles too. PM me or start an El Choclo thread is you want some help. Good luck and have fun.

[tangomonkey]

Shandy

Learn the terminology of music. It exists to eliminate confusion when describing and talking about music. "Structure" (or "form"), "sentence", "phrase", "introduction", "coda", "beat", "syncopation", etc. have clear definitions. Read about time signatures and keys and note values too.

The more you can identify when listening (not dancing) to music the better, ie. the deeper will be your understanding. Then let your dancing flow freely and intuitively - no thinking, just doing. Dance what you feel and let your intellectually gained knowledge operate subconsciously.

[AndaBien]

Learn the terminology of music. It exists to eliminate confusion when describing and talking about music. "Structure" (or "form"), "sentence", "phrase", "introduction", "coda", "beat", "syncopation", etc. have clear definitions. Read about time signatures and keys and note values too...

Good advice, and I think all dancers should be able to discuss music using clear terminology. Unlike tango, music has well-defined terminology, and as had for centuries.

[Shandy]

Shandy

Learn the terminology of music. It exists to eliminate confusion when describing and talking about music. "Structure" (or "form"), "sentence", "phrase", "introduction", "coda", "beat", "syncopation", etc. have clear definitions. Read about time signatures and keys and note values too.

The more you can identify when listening (not dancing) to music the better, ie. the deeper will be your understanding. Then let your dancing flow freely and intuitively - no thinking, just doing. Dance what you feel and let your intellectually gained knowledge operate subconsciously.


Absolutely

[Steve Pastor]

I've done the analysis on El Choclo
Aww, come on...
Yeesh, how hard are you gonna make us work?
Let us know what you found.
Please.

[tangomonkey]

Aww, come on...
Yeesh, how hard are you gonna make us work?
Let us know what you found.
Please.

OK. I'll start a thread and go over El Choclo when I get a chance.

[Gssh]

Gsshs Tango for Dummies
(my standard speech to beginning leaders)

1) Musicality is the easiest part of tango to fake. A trick takes a lot of time to master, and you can only use it once per dance, having basic musicality works all the time.

2) Every 4 bars something interesting happens, every 8 bars something more interesting happens. Counting bars up to 8 for a week while driving and having tango playing will make this automatic enough that it is no longer distracting from dancing.

3) Do something, anything to mirror these interesting things in the dance - pause, accelerate, do a trick, start a giro, end a giro, switch instruments, switch rhythms. What exactly the interesting thing is depends on the structure of the piece, and will be pretty obvious after a few hundred miles on the dancefloor, but for now the nice thing is that it doesn't really matter what you do. If the music pauses and you start running it is nice to form a counterpoint to the music. If there is a crescendo and you pause it is nice to feel the tension building and resolve it when the crescendo reaches its max. If the orchestra is mischievous and doesn't do the expected thing - just laugh and enjoy being tricked - if the follower is musical she gets the joke, and if she isn't it doesn't matter anyway.

Gssh


I not sure if musical terminology and reading sheet music actually helps - for me musicians music and dancers music are almost two separate things. I tend to think of the tango orchestras more like i think of great dj's at clubs who mix and scratch and slow down and and accelerate the music to get specific effects on the dancefloor. I think there is a lot of things going on in the music that are not on the sheet - like the swing in milonga or the rhythmic structure of vals. That is one of the reason some of the modern tango bands don't seem to be that much fun to dance to to me- they are great musicians playing all the right pieces but their phrasing seems to me to be subtly off and does not support the dance.

[sudoplatov]

Would you suggest both the rhythm and melody sections or just the rhythm section to begin with?
It's as easy to read both as to read either.

[AndaBien]

Gsshs Tango for Dummies
(my standard speech to beginning leaders)...

Sounds like a good way to explain it.

I'm reminded of an old-timer playing music in a folk cafe, who wanted the audience to sing along. He said, "If you sing the same note, it's called unison. If you sing a different note and it sounds good, it's called harmony. If you sing a different note and it sounds bad, it's called jazz".

[Steve Pastor]

Learning to read music most certainly doesn't tell you everything abput the music you hear. But it DOES reveal the basic structure(s) and other things I think are important.
For instance "there are no pauses in milinga". Not only do I hear them, but I see them in the written versions. They are of shorter duration than in vals or tango itself, but they are there.

One of the reasons there is so much confusion and miscommunication regarding AT is that there has been little standardization. While it's possible to create something as good as what has gone before and stood the test of time (many many books have been written about dance, but you would think not), the chances are slim, I think, of out doing someone who has, for instance, years of study and decades of experience.

I agree with Gssh about the importance of those nearly impossible to define qualities in music (and probably dance, too). And I cherish the people who known enough about it to point out, for example, the differences between original big band swing and "neo swing", and between original rockabilly and neo rockabilly. I haven't found the same level of analysis yet in AT music.

[AndaBien]

Learning to read music most certainly doesn't tell you everything abput the music you hear. But it DOES reveal the basic structure(s) and other things I think are important...

I agree.

However, learning to read music well enough to follow an orchestra could be a challenging and frustrating task. I do think learning to understand the structural basis of tango music would be very valuable, especially to a leader, but I think it could be done a lot more easily than by learning to read music. I would guess that 80-90% of the tango dancers in BA can't read music.

[Steve Pastor]

Oh, my, the tango dancers in BA.
You think that many read music?

I'm reminded of an old-timer playing music in a folk cafe, who wanted the audience to sing along. He said, "If you sing the same note, it's called unison. If you sing a different note and it sounds good, it's called harmony. If you sing a different note and it sounds bad, it's called jazz".

No disrespect to the old-timer, but my father used to say something like that. He said other things about music, too, that turned other to be utterly wrong.

When I first brought up looking at the sheet music to see how things were notated, I wrote that it was something you could do in you "really really" want to get into it.
I've been at this for some time now, and have the benefit of being somewhere where the level of "tango awareness" is pretty high. I've learned from that enviroment, and want to keep learning.

Looking forward to reaping the benefits of tm's study of El Choclo.

[AndaBien]

Oh, my, the tango dancers in BA. You think that many read music? ...

No, I don't. About as many there read music as do people here read music, dancer or not.

[salthepal]

I think my dancing really became musical when I started to listen to tango often enough that I had a favorite song(s). Once you're at that level, one starts to slowly understand why they like that particular song (is it the lyrics? a certain phrase where a wailing violin overlays the strong beat of the bandoneon? etc). Pretty soon that progresses to having a favorite orchestra, where you understand how the different orchestras play music (is it the constant beat? the unexpected accents? the smoothness? extreme switches from strong to smooth?) (edit: in my case, I have a favorite song every week, and a favorite orchestra every month, and they keep rotating :) )

And once all of that sets in, you can safely forget all about it and just dance :)

[ant]

It's as easy to read both as to read either.

That is not my understanding and then there is the question of what is more useful, if indeed either are, if you are a dancer.

As I understand it to read all music you will need to study things like,


scales, form, chords,standard harmonic progressions, keys, modes

when you are learn to read the rhythm line only you cut out a lot of that.

As a dancer that wants to be more sure about the music, to understand the start and end of phrases, it was suggested to me learning how the rhythm line works is best and I should find a good percussion teacher.

Finally when I mentioned to teacher I had a lesson with recently that I was thinking of learning to read music her reaction was what for? When I explained it was to give me more certainty with what I was hearing she understood but felt that the benefits were very limited.

[Shandy]

I understand the concern about learning to read music - but a conscious understanding of the music we dance too isn't the same thing imo. "Reading music" is just one way of developing a deeper appreciation of this specific style of music.

However, my goal is to be a better Argentine Tango dancer.

[tangomonkey]

Finally when I mentioned to teacher I had a lesson with recently that I was thinking of learning to read music her reaction was what for? When I explained it was to give me more certainty with what I was hearing she understood but felt that the benefits were very limited.


There is no need to learn to read music in order to be a good dancer. There is however a need to understand some basic music terminology specific to dance (phrase, beat, cadence, syncopation, rhythm, dynamics, etc.). The ability to recognize them and dance accordingly is crucial. If someone cannot define these terms there is a fundamental lack of knowledge, IMO. I know many others will not agree...that's OK.

Given that, if you now how to read music it would foolish not take advantage of the skill. No amount of listening can replace a careful analysis of the printed music - ever. There are levels of appreciation and understanding that are reachable only through analysis. It then becomes "soley" a matter of technique to express the music in the dance. At least that's my hope...:)

[AndaBien]

...There is however a need to understand some basic music terminology specific to dance (phrase, beat, cadence, syncopation, rhythm, dynamics, etc.). The ability to recognize them and dance accordingly is crucial. If someone cannot define these terms there is a fundamental lack of knowledge....

I agree totally, but...

Some of us like to think that dance is based upon music, but that is clearly not so for everyone. I see many dancers who seem to dance while music is playing, but I see no relationship between the dance and the music; they are not on the beat, the musical phrase goes by un-noticed.

Again, I completely agree. But many people do, apparently, dance merely while music is playing, and there is little-if-any relationship between the music and the dance.

[ant]

There is however a need to understand some basic music terminology specific to dance (phrase, beat, cadence, syncopation, rhythm, dynamics, etc.). The ability to recognize them and dance accordingly is crucial. If someone cannot define these terms there is a fundamental lack of knowledge, IMO. I know many others will not agree...that's OK.


Thanks for the opinion. It helps.

The key question for me is how do you develope the ability to recognize them?

[tangomonkey]

I agree totally, but...

Some of us like to think that dance is based upon music, but that is clearly not so for everyone. I see many dancers who seem to dance while music is playing, but I see no relationship between the dance and the music; they are not on the beat, the musical phrase goes by un-noticed.

Again, I completely agree. But many people do, apparently, dance merely while music is playing, and there is little-if-any relationship between the music and the dance.

Babies in the womb kick and move to music too, but they aren't dancers. Dancing requires musicianship - the ability to hear the emotional shifts in the music, the rhythmic changes, the phrases, etc. and physically respond to them. And that requires technique. Many people think musicianship is either within you or it isn't. I am not one of them. It might come more naturally to some than others, but I think it can be taught.

[tangomonkey]

Thanks for the opinion. It helps.

The key question for me is how do you develope the ability to recognize them?

Keep reading "El Choclo: A Musical Analysis", of course. ;)

Just take one term. Learn its definition. Wikipedia is a start. With luck there will be sound files too. (It would be soooooo much easier for me and those following along with El Choclo if I could include audio clips).

There might a music appreciation class at a local music school or community center or see if there is an on-line course. I'm sure there are books with CDs. The American composer Aaron Copland wrote a great music appreciation book called "What to Listen for in Music" (1957). It was written with classical music in mind but that doesn't matter. See if it's in your local library, but unfortunately there won't be a CD of examples (unless it has been revised, don't know).

[AndaBien]

...And that requires technique...

Technique? I'm not sure. (I do advocate it). Musical understanding? For sure.

...Many people think musicianship is either within you or it isn't. I am not one of them. It might come more naturally to some than others, but I think it can be taught.

Yes! Understanding music at a fundamental level is not at all difficult. Anyone who wants to be a capable dancer must have a basic understanding of music, because the foundation of dance is music.

[ant]

Keep reading "El Choclo: A Musical Analysis", of course. ;)

Thanks for that thread and I am


Just take one term. Learn its definition. Wikipedia is a start. With luck there will be sound files too. (It would be soooooo much easier for me and those following along with El Choclo if I could include audio clips).


I understand the terms in my head I am just not sure my ears do.


There might a music appreciation class at a local music school or community center or see if there is an on-line course.

I have done that and the courses that seem most apt are summarised as follows:
Jazz Ear-Training: Level 1
This course covers aural recognition of chords, progressions,
intervals, rhythms and scales/modes, incorporating some
acapella singing based on jazz standards. It is suitable
for any aspiring jazz instrumentalist and is ideally taken
together with Jazz Harmony (see below), but can be
taken on its own.
Jazz Harmony: Level 1
Develop a better understanding of scales, form, chords,
standard harmonic progressions, keys, modes, etc including
detailed analysis of the more popular jazz standards. Ideally
taken, together with Jazz Ear Training, but can be taken onits own. It is open to all instrumentalists.

Is this the sort of thing you had in mind? I can't find the equivalent for AT music. There are other courses that bring in musical appreciation by tracing the history of Classical or jazz or some other styles. If not can you give me a clue. There are so many great music colleges in London and some very highly acclaimed music day schools for children on my door step, I am sure I will be able to find the right type learning.


I'm sure there are books with CDs.


The one most peple tend to recommend is Joaquin Amenabar's Tango Lets dance to the music.


The American composer Aaron Copland wrote a great music appreciation book called "What to Listen for in Music" (1957).

I have now ordered a copy on Amazon. You can buy a used one for under £5.

[tangomonkey]

I understand the terms in my head I am just not sure my ears do.


I have done that and the courses that seem most apt are summarised as follows:
Jazz Ear-Training: Level 1
This course covers aural recognition of chords, progressions,
intervals, rhythms and scales/modes, incorporating some
acapella singing based on jazz standards. It is suitable
for any aspiring jazz instrumentalist and is ideally taken
together with Jazz Harmony (see below), but can be
taken on its own.
Jazz Harmony: Level 1
Develop a better understanding of scales, form, chords,
standard harmonic progressions, keys, modes, etc including
[SIZE=1][FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light]detailed analysis of the more popular jazz standards. Ideally
taken, together with Jazz Ear Training, but can be taken onits own. It is open to all instrumentalists.

[SIZE=1][FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light][SIZE=2]Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

No, those courses are for musicians specifically wanting to learn jazz. Not the kind of thing I had in mind. Much more detailed than needed too.

If you know the definitions you need to find a source with audio samples. There must be something on-line.

I'm not sure what specifically you are having trouble with. Hearing the phrases is important, so try this (if you can hear the phrases and the Q&As no need to):

Listen to one of El Choclo samples (recommend the Garden Quartet for this exercise). You know there are 16 bars in Section A and there are 2 beats per bar. Don't look at the music, just listen. So after the opening 3 quick pickup notes start counting on beat 1 of bar 1.
Count the beats: 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, 4-2...16-2 that will be the end of Section A

Each phrase is 4 bars - 8 beats
Count the beats for each phrase: 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, 4-2, 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, 4-2...

Each Q&A, the smaller phrase within the 4 bar phrase is 2 bars - 4 beats
Count the beats for each sub-phrase (the Q&As): 1-2, 2-2, 1-2, 2-2...

Once you can do all that you will know the phrasing inside out. The then stop counting and listen to the melody flow.

Give me something specific you're having trouble hearing and I'll try to help out.

[dchester]

I understand the concern about learning to read music - but a conscious understanding of the music we dance too isn't the same thing imo. "Reading music" is just one way of developing a deeper appreciation of this specific style of music.

However, my goal is to be a better Argentine Tango dancer.
A simple thing, is to just listen to tango music when doing other things, (like in the car driving to work, or when at home just relaxing). Knowing the music well, helps in many ways (and IMO is more important than whether you can verbally articulate the various entities in the music).

[tangomonkey]

A simple thing, is to just listen to tango music when doing other things, (like in the car driving to work, or when at home just relaxing). Knowing the music well, helps in many ways (and IMO is less important than whether you can verbally articulate the various entities in the music).

You mean "more important" not "less important", no?

[dchester]

You mean "more important" not "less important", no?
Yeah, I just fixed my prior post. Thanks.

[UKDancer]

All of the tango orchestras of the Golden Age arranged and performed music for dancing. They existed for no other purpose, and their only means of communicating with the dancers was aurally, through live music (mostly) and later, through recordings; the dancers heard the musicians play, and they danced.

There is a stubborn streak in me that says that this was always the best (and original) model, and that while musical awareness can take many forms, and operate at many levels (I am an amateur musician myself, proficient to a reasonable standard on several instruments, and I read music) the need to do more than to listen carefully to what you hear is to persue the interest beyond that required to be a good social dancer.

[newbie]

I remember a teacher saying (about A.T but also more generally, by cavemen times and so on) that music was there first. And then someone heared the music and started to dance. Not the other way round with someone starting to dance silently and some musician noticing him and playing music according to the moves.

[tangomonkey]

Milonguero 1: The speed of Firpo's El Choclo makes me want to get up and dance. The melody is so crisp I can't help but make my steps move that way too. I feel so alive.

Milonguero 2: I'm getting too old to move that fast for three minutes. I much prefer Di Sarli. The way his melodies float on the air, and the way those violins come in during that intense bit is wonderfull. I feel like soaring along with them.

Milonguero 3: D'Arienzo's lush sound gives me goosebumpbs. The way he brings the full orchestra in an out, and that solo violin, and those punchy off-beat accents!! I just have to dance!

Milonguero 4: Let's stop talking and cabaceo a partner.


When someone can participate in a conversation like this (tongue-in-cheek) one they have "arrived". In terms of knowing the music. Move and respond however you feel. Dance like a caveman as long as you and your partner enjoy the dance.

There is no right or wrong aproach for everyone. We can chase our tails around this circle forever...:wink:

[ant]

Give me something specific you're having trouble hearing and I'll try to help out.

According to people I dance with that know about music (for instance one is a symphony standard French Horn player) I don't have any problems with the music.

I don't have to much trouble understanding the musical structure you have outlined. They go over things like that at the Tango Mango which I attend 4 times a year and they have a musical secrets lecture every morning.

However I have had no formal music training (even when I was at school) and so I have very little confidence in my own ability and it is this that I wish to tackle.

[tangomonkey]

There is a stubborn streak in me that says that this was always the best (and original) model, and that while musical awareness can take many forms, and operate at many levels (I am an amateur musician myself, proficient to a reasonable standard on several instruments, and I read music) the need to do more than to listen carefully to what you hear is to persue the interest beyond that required to be a good social dancer.

Well, you are a musician, so you what you hear is not the same as a non-musician - you hear more.

I agree listening (actively and thoughtfully) is needed, but telling a non-musician to listen carefully without specifying how to do that and what to listen for is probably not going to help them much.

[tangomonkey]

According to people I dance with that know about music (for instance one is a symphony standard French Horn player) I don't have any problems with the music.

I don't have to much trouble understanding the musical structure you have outlined. They go over things like that at the Tango Mango which I attend 4 times a year and they have a musical secrets lecture every morning.

However I have had no formal music training (even when I was at school) and so I have very little confidence in my own ability and it is this that I wish to tackle.

Maybe you just need more experience dancing to build confidence? Is confidence lacking in terms of dance technique or dancing musically? You can PM me if you want to get more specific.

[ant]

Maybe you just need more experience dancing to build confidence? Is confidence lacking in terms of dance technique or dancing musically? You can PM me if you want to get more specific.

When I am in a lesson and they start talking about the music.

When I dance I am fine.

[tangomonkey]

When I am in a lesson and they start talking about the music.

About phrases, beats, rhythms...? So you want to know what "they" are talking about. Is there a lot of terminology? (There shouldn't be unless it's clearly described and with example in the tango music you are dancing to, IMO)

Have some examples?

[ant]

About phrases, beats, rhythms...? So you want to know what "they" are talking about. Is there a lot of terminology? (There shouldn't be unless it's clearly described and with example in the tango music you are dancing to, IMO)

Have some examples?

Not always to do with AT.
For instance I may be at a modern jive dance and a track comes on that has a chachacha beat and I do not recognise that.
I also find it very difficult to hit the breaks in general swing music.
In both AT and other dance where there is a track and they may drop the up beat so it is silent that would throw me.
Where in AT they change the beats in a phrase randomly (Biagi in particular) that throws me.
I cannot always tell what instument is playing, I am particularly unsure about when the bandoneon is playing.

I am just beginning to understand both in my head and my ears syncopation. For instance I am now beginning to pick up the use of syncopating the 2 beat in dance terms. Whether delaying or accelerating. However I am still having trouble understanding what is meant by 3,3,2 syncopation.

In general terms I still need to educate my ears more. When I go to talks on music they point out so many things to me that I would not have noticed. I am beginning to hear more in the msuic than I used to. I suppose I want a way of using the deliberate practise methodology in another current thread to improve things.

[tangomonkey]

Not always to do with AT.
For instance I may be at a modern jive dance and a track comes on that has a chachacha beat and I do not recognise that.
I also find it very difficult to hit the breaks in general swing music.
In both AT and other dance where there is a track and they may drop the up beat so it is silent that would throw me.
Where in AT they change the beats in a phrase randomly (Biagi in particular) that throws me.
I cannot always tell what instument is playing, I am particularly unsure about when the bandoneon is playing.

I am just beginning to understand both in my head and my ears syncopation. For instance I am now beginning to pick up the use of syncopating the 2 beat in dance terms. Whether delaying or accelerating. However I am still having trouble understanding what is meant by 3,3,2 syncopation.

In general terms I still need to educate my ears more. When I go to talks on music they point out so many things to me that I would not have noticed. I am beginning to hear more in the msuic than I used to. I suppose I want a way of using the deliberate practise methodology in another current thread to improve things.

I have to sign out now...will get back to you.

[tangomonkey]

Not always to do with AT.
For instance I may be at a modern jive dance and a track comes on that has a chachacha beat and I do not recognise that.
I also find it very difficult to hit the breaks in general swing music.
In both AT and other dance where there is a track and they may drop the up beat so it is silent that would throw me.
Where in AT they change the beats in a phrase randomly (Biagi in particular) that throws me.
I cannot always tell what instument is playing, I am particularly unsure about when the bandoneon is playing.

I am just beginning to understand both in my head and my ears syncopation. For instance I am now beginning to pick up the use of syncopating the 2 beat in dance terms. Whether delaying or accelerating. However I am still having trouble understanding what is meant by 3,3,2 syncopation.

In general terms I still need to educate my ears more. When I go to talks on music they point out so many things to me that I would not have noticed. I am beginning to hear more in the msuic than I used to. I suppose I want a way of using the deliberate practise methodology in another current thread to improve things.

OK, so rhythm is an area to work on.

The beat is often not obvious in tango music and I can relate to your problem. Often a regular pulsing sensation is missing. The beat is still there, because music moves at a regular pace through time. (Almost always for the type of music we are talkng about). Listen to some music you are having trouble hearing - Biagi. Count and/or tap the beat continuously and regularly. The beat may be slower than you are hearing it. If the music sounds fast it is because the beat is being subdivided into smaller time values. (Recall eighth and sixteenth time values?). You will eventualy be able to hear and feel the beat even when it is hidden.



Take a look at this demo of tango rhythms http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxi7WFlQAf0


Deliberate practice requires a teacher to instruct and correct errors. I can suggest some simple drills, the rest is up to you...

Use this on-line metronome http://www.metronomeonline.com/
Click on 70bpm (make sure your speakers are turned on). That will be the beat. Do the drills with different tempi (bpm) too.
Either think in 2/4 or 4/4. It doesn't matter - try both.
In 4/4 time signature there are four beats per bar.
In 2/4 time signature there are two beats per bar.

Some exercises in 4/4 (you can adapt for 2/4):
Count (in your head) and tap quarter notes (one per beat) along with the metronome 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4...

Count and tap eighth notes, there are two for every beat of the metronome: think 1&2&3&4& 1&2&3&4&...
Count and tap sixteenth notes, there are four for every beat of the metronome: think 1234 2234 3234 4234..
Count and tap a pattern of 2 eighths, 1 quarter, two eights, 1 quarter: 1&2 3&4, 1&2 3&4...
Count and tap four sixteenth notes, two eighths, 2 quarters: 1234 2& 3 4
Devise various drills yourself, using different combinations of note values.

Some more difficult drills:
Let's switch to 2/4. Use the metronome.
Count and tap continuos sixteenth notes: 1234 1234, 1234 1234...
Now count every sixteenth note but tap only on 1 and 4
Still counting countinuous sixteenths, tap on 1, 4 of beat one then tap 2 eighths on beat 2 (habanera rhythm)
Still counting countinuous sixteenths, tap on 1 and 2 and 4 of beat one then tap 2 eighths on beat 2 (A habanera variation)



When musicians are first starting out they are taught to do these sort of rhythm drills. Then music is put in front of them and they tap the rhythms. Eventualy the teacher will clap rhythms and the student has to clap them back - no music just ears. The rhythms start simply and eventualy they get quite complex.

There are several music syllabi with international recognition. The Royal Conservaotry of Music in Canada, and The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music in the UK are two. There are published course materials and workbooks available, very methodical and well presented.

And maybe take some lessons from a music teacher.

[ant]

OK, so rhythm is an area to work on..

That was the conclusion I came to so thanks for confirming it.



I can suggest some simple drills, the rest is up to you...


Thanks for these I will start working on them and let you know how I get on.


When musicians are first starting out they are taught to do these sort of rhythm drills. Then music is put in front of them and they tap the rhythms. Eventualy the teacher will clap rhythms and the student has to clap them back - no music just ears. The rhythms start simply and eventualy they get quite complex.

Based upon my enquiries it seems that I will need to find a percussion teacher. Would you agree with that?


There are several music syllabi with international recognition. The Royal Conservaotry of Music in Canada, and The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music in the UK are two. There are published course materials and workbooks available, very methodical and well presented.

I will look into this.


And maybe take some lessons from a music teacher


I have located 2 teachers that I might start trying to have lessons with.

One is a percussionist and teaches at a local school that specialises in music (subject to what you have to say above) and the other is an Argentinian bandoneonist and guitar player that teaches music, . Again I will let you know how things work out.