Is social tango "art"

[AndaBien]

...When I'm on the floor, with some awesome tango playing and a nice lady in my arms sharing that moment with me, my focus is more on enjoying that moment and making my dance partner enjoy herself. I don't think of myself as making art.

An interesting comment from another current thread inspired some thoughts.

When I'm dancing I don't see myself as an artist; I'm just lost inside the dance with my partner and the music. However, I do see "dance" as my most successful artistic outlet. I consider myself to be a dancer. I use it to express emotions and ideas. It's a form of creativity for me. Sometimes the muse touches me, and sometimes not. I intend my partner to be the participatory audience of it.

OTOH, social dance is a unique art form, if it is one. Only a single person at a time can have the experience of ones art, and then it's gone. Social dance can be recorded and viewed later by many people, but they aren't getting the experience of the dance.

Maybe we need to have a definition of "art" (is there one?) before we can decide if social dance is included.

[tangomonkey]

Maybe we need to have a definition of "art" (is there one?) before we can decide if social dance is included.

Well, do you have one? :artsy:

[AndaBien]

Well, do you have one?

Okay, for a starter, from Wikipedia:

"Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol) significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senses), emotions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotions), and intellect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect). It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music), literature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature), film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film), photography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography), sculpture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sculpture), and paintings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings)."

One certainly notices the list does not include dance at all.

[Zoopsia59]

Okay, for a starter, from Wikipedia:

"Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol) significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senses), emotions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotions), and intellect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect). It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music), literature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature), film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film), photography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography), sculpture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sculpture), and paintings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings)."

One certainly notices the list does not include dance at all.

"Including... " means: these things, but not not limited to these things

This definition, if limited to only what is listed, does not include ANY performance based art that is not preserved for "permanence" in some format.

Try telling Barishnikov or Balanchine that dance isn't an art form. Or the stars of Broadway.

[nucat78]

I'd grant you that ballet / interpretive / impressionist dance could be called art, but I would not consider social dance art. I would consider it an activity.

[ant]

Okay, for a starter, from Wikipedia:

"Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol) significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senses), emotions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotions), and intellect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect). It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music), literature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature), film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film), photography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography), sculpture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sculpture), and paintings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings)."


I am a bit suspicous of this definition. With the word intellect it opens up the whole world of logic and fields such as mathematics and science which may people would specifically exclude as art.

Personally I think Zoops definition helpful.


Originally Posted by Zoopsia59
Performances and Art in general are intended to prompt an emotional response or feeling in the viewer, not just an analytical response.


Does dancing tango prompt an emotional response in me? I have no idea. Hopefully other peoples posts may give me some insight into this, so I can decide.

[AndaBien]

...This definition, if limited to only what is listed, does not include ANY performance based art that it not preserved for "permanence" in some format.

Try telling Barishnikov or Balanchine that dance isn't an art form. Or the stars of Broadway.

Well, the definition does include music. I don't see any difference between performance music and performance dance.

I'd grant you that ballet / interpretive / impressionist dance could be called art, but I would not consider social dance art. I would consider it an activity.

My question is, where do you draw the line? If Fred and Ginger dance on stage, I think it's art. What if they dance socially? Is it the audience that makes a difference?

[ant]

My question is, where do you draw the line? If Fred and Ginger dance on stage, I think it's art. What if they dance socially? Is it the audience that makes a difference?

Perhaps the answers lies in your reasons for doing it rather than the outcome seen or perceived by others.

[AndaBien]

Perhaps the answers lies in your reasons for doing it rather than the outcome seen or perceived by others.

Interesting idea.

Some artist are, I think, clearly influenced by their audience. (Rock musicians). Some artist, IMO, only do art because they must. (van Gogh)?

Does a leader dance for his/her own sake? For the sake of his partner? For the sake of an audience which just observes?

[ant]

Some artist are, I think, clearly influenced by their audience. (Rock musicians). ]?
Does the answer re van Gogh apply here?

Some artist, IMO, only do art because they must. (van Gogh)?


There is obviously an emotional need to do this and the result of what he does I assume produces an emotional response in (some/most?) people that see the result.


Does a leader dance for his/her own sake?

Assuming free will, I am sure he/she does.


For the sake of his partner?

Assuming you mean dance partner, I don't think so but to react in some way with that partner, for me the answer is yes.

For the sake of an audience which just observes

If you talking about a social context, possibally and then for all sorts of reasons.
In a performance context, I would have thought definately but then one needs to ask is that the only or main purpose of the dance.

[tangomonkey]

OK, I'll have a go...a rough attempt:

Art may be defined as a physical object (painting, sculpture), an auditory creation (music), a visual performance (dance), capturing and or containing deep human emotional content.

And there are two types of artist:
Creative Artists: those who create works of art - painters, sculptors, composers, choreographers.
Interpretive Artists (performers): those who interpret the emotional content in works of art and transmit those emotions to observers and or listeners, requiring expert skill and mastery of their craft.

Art may be entertaining but it is not entertainment.

It's rough, but its a start...what about literature, poetry, and playwrights?...

Is social tango dancing Art? Don't think so. I'm not performing or trying to convey deep emotional content...or am I? What about the relationship with my partner? Perhaps there is art at times.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

For me, it is an artistic expression of the sort; we interpret music, we improvise, create something on the spot.

[nucat78]

My question is, where do you draw the line? If Fred and Ginger dance on stage, I think it's art. What if they dance socially? Is it the audience that makes a difference?

Dunno. Is stand-up comedy art? Is dancing polka on stage art? (No offense to our polka fans.) Is tango inherently different than polka? (I can visualize the tango purists having strokes already... ;):))

I'd consider Fred and Ginger to be social entertainers of their era like a J-Lo is today. I much prefer F&G to J-Lo, but in their time, were F&G considered artists by the public at large?

Perhaps the dance / art thing is more a continuum instead of a binary choice.

Edit: Better yet, I think tangomonkey is on the right track here...

[Ray Sison]

Some people consider life itself art, so why not?

[AndaBien]

Dunno. Is stand-up comedy art? Is dancing polka on stage art? (No offense to our polka fans.) Is tango inherently different than polka? (I can visualize the tango purists having strokes already... ;):))

I'd consider Fred and Ginger to be social entertainers of their era like a J-Lo is today. I much prefer F&G to J-Lo, but in their time, were F&G considered artists by the public at large?

Perhaps the dance / art thing is more a continuum instead of a binary choice.

Edit: Better yet, I think tangomonkey is on the right track here...

Entertainment vs art. What's the difference, and is the difference meaningful. I'm sure we can all point to art that is not meant to entertain, and to entertainment that is not meant to be artful. I'm clear in my own mind that there is no on/off choice, but I am curious about where the fuzzy line might be drawn. Bringing the discussion back to tango, can some social dancing be thought of as art?

Burlesque was certainly entertaining, but I would not say it was art. Why not? "The Scream" was not meant to be entertaining, but I would easily call it art. Because of the emotional expression? Maybe so. Can a social tango dance have great emotional expression? Of course.

I'm just asking - is there a line, and if so, what is it?

[Steve Pastor]

Is dancing polka on stage art? (No offense to our polka fans.) Is tango inherently different than polka?
Polka fans are too busy having fun to take offense (ok, I'm just talking about me)
Tango is inherently different than polka in that some people want it to not be "fun", because that is the zeitgiest in the milongas in central BA. (Milonga and vals aren't included - maybe)

[Zoopsia59]

in their time, were F&G considered artists by the public at large?


Well, if that's the definition then Van Gogh was not an artist.

[Subliminal]

Context, context, context. Art is concept given form and context with reality. If you're looking for an objective answer, then I have one for you... wasn't tango recently declared a part of humanity's cultural heritage by a world-wide recognized organization? There ya go, context. ;)

So yes. All tango is art.

[nucat78]

Well, if that's the definition then Van Gogh was not an artist.

Forgive my ignorance of art history, but why do you say that? Was he the equivalent of a Sears portrait studio photographer, i.e. strictly commercial?

[tangomonkey]

Entertainment vs art. What's the difference, and is the difference meaningful. I'm sure we can all point to art that is not meant to entertain, and to entertainment that is not meant to be artful. I'm clear in my own mind that there is no on/off choice, but I am curious about where the fuzzy line might be drawn. Bringing the discussion back to tango, can some social dancing be thought of as art?

Burlesque was certainly entertaining, but I would not say it was art. Why not? "The Scream" was not meant to be entertaining, but I would easily call it art. Because of the emotional expression? Maybe so. Can a social tango dance have great emotional expression? Of course.

I'm just asking - is there a line, and if so, what is it?

I am going to risk sounding elitist or snobbish. I am neither, really, I'm not.

Entertainment is frivolous (but enjoyable!) and temporary; art is neither. People naturally have different ideas about what is and isn't art. It has something to do with how much they know about the subject. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart were great artistic and creative geniuses. Cee Lo Green is not, neither are the bulk of popular music and musicians great artistic geniuses. They are entertainers, very skilled but not the way, say a great classical composer, pianist, or orchestra conductor is. I can say these things because I've spent so many decades filled with music. But it will always come down to what someone likes. If you can't stand Bach but love Cee Lo that is absolutely fine. No judgement should be made, by either of us. I enjoyed listening to Cee Lo's "F(orget) You" - the first few times. Will I or anyone listen to it or him in 10+ years? Doubt it. I still listen to Bach pieces I've heard for dozens (hundreds?) of times over the past 40 years.

These are very broad statements and not absolute truths - and no offense is intended.

If I thought tango music was inferior I wouldn't give it a second thought or dance to it, let alone take on the El Choclo thread.

[tangomonkey]

Forgive my ignorance of art history, but why do you say that? Was he the equivalent of a Sears portrait studio photographer, i.e. strictly commercial?

Don't mean to speak for Zoops, but because he was not popular during his time.

[Zoopsia59]

Forgive my ignorance of art history, but why do you say that? Was he the equivalent of a Sears portrait studio photographer, i.e. strictly commercial?

He sold only a few paintings in his entire life. Not only was he not considered an artist in his time, he wasn't even a "commercial" success as a 2nd rate wannabe. By almost any measure during his lifetime, he was a total failure as an "artist" with the exception of being extremely respected by a few of his peers. Other artist of the time held the opposite opinion of his worth although history has proven that those of his time who recognized his genius and contribution to the development of modern art were correct in their assessment.

[Zoopsia59]

I've thought about this thread some today and even considered replying as to what is "art" in my view. However, anything I start to write quickly becomes a candidate for a very different thread (the one on pretentiousness) so I will abstain.

[tangomonkey]

I've thought about this thread some today and even considered replying as to what is "art" in my view. However, anything I start to write quickly becomes a candidate for a very different thread (the one on pretentiousness) so I will abstain.

Well that didn't stop me...:p

[chanchan]

Art is when you deliberaty affect the emotions of at less one person.

So, you think that the exchange of emotions with your partner is a fundamental aspect of tango, then your tango is art.

[AndaBien]

Art is when you deliberaty affect the emotions of at less one person.

So, you think that the exchange of emotions with your partner is a fundamental aspect of tango, then your tango is art.

I like that. Well, I may not be trying to affect my partners emotions, but I am trying to express my own emotions to my partner.

There are times when my dance is merely craftsmanship. There are other times when my dance is deeply expressive and emotional. Only one person, my partner, gets to know that, but I don't see how that is different from being artistic.

[tangomonkey]

I like that. Well, I may not be trying to affect my partners emotions, but I am trying to express my own emotions to my partner.

There are times when my dance is merely craftsmanship. There are other times when my dance is deeply expressive and emotional. Only one person, my partner, gets to know that, but I don't see how that is different from being artistic.

I came to pretty much the same conclusion:


Is social tango dancing Art? Don't think so. I'm not performing or trying to convey deep emotional content...or am I? What about the relationship with my partner? Perhaps there is art at times.

[ant]

I like that. Well, I may not be trying to affect my partners emotions, but I am trying to express my own emotions to my partner.


I assume when you dance that you want your partner to move in a way that reflects your movement and/or what she may hear in the music. I would also assume part if not all of your intention would be for her to give her feelings within this movement, whether that comes from you and/or the music.

Is it the music that produces the emotional response or a mix of you, your partner and the music? If the music is the primary sourse for you both to respond does that then make your individual responses art?

[UKDancer]

Art draws people into it, and as something more than entertainment, be it drama, music or any of the established forms. Dancing is one of the forms that can be experienced as both a spectator (and ballet might be considered the pinnacle, there), and as a participator. Those of us who dance tango (and I'm nearly one of you) will also recognise the intensly 'internal' aspect of the dance: there is much more than can be observed, indeed there maybe little or nothing that would hold the attention of a viewer, let alone be considered art.

An anecdote (while it's fresh in my mind). I was at a thinly attended social dance last night, and the DJ usually plays a couple of AT songs for the sake of the few who dance a little tango (not very authentically, as it happens, but BR dancers do like to dabble). On came Canaro/Maida's Poema (not an obvious choice for such a setting), and no one got up. I swallowed hard, and invited a BR dancer (not a tanguera) of a good standard to 'come for a walk with me to music', and we were the only couple on the floor, and off we went. Just walks, weight changes in place, little rocks, and small turns (more or less ocho cortado) but very gently (there isn't much you can follow if you have never danced tango, and don't know how the lead/follow process is meant to work). But we made a nice, simple dance. What made it work was the connection: this was someone I dance with very frequently, and she is used to the 'feel' of my lead, but she had never danced in CE before, but she followed very competently (all things considered).

Now here's the interesting thing. Not only was it obvious, the moment the music stopped, that our dancing had been watched intently, but a small group from one of my current BR beginner classes came over and asked, with obvious and genuine interest, what it was that we had been dancing. I explained, and a lady asked how my partner knew what steps to dance, and I explained a little further. 'It was lovely', she said, 'we must try that'. And they did. They asked the DJ to play it again, and now six of us got up: four of whom had never seen, let alone danced social tango, and we went a little walk around the room, stepping with the gentle beat, making some double-time steps with the music. There was a lot wrong with it (!), but afterwards, the ladies were all but glowing with satisfaction, and the men looked as though they had just experienced a breakthrough in their understanding of the nature of dance. 'I wish we could have filmed that', one of them said.

If only all art was as accessible.

[JohnEm]

I like that. Well, I may not be trying to affect my partners emotions, but I am trying to express my own emotions to my partner.

There are times when my dance is merely craftsmanship. There are other times when my dance is deeply expressive and emotional. Only one person, my partner, gets to know that, but I don't see how that is different from being artistic.

I wouldn't normally get involved in a thread of this kind especially
when my initial reaction was the very idea of social tango as art is
somewhat pretentious. Except some of the thoughts such as AndaBien's
strike a chord.

So, rather than Wikipedia, let's take three meanings (from many) of ART
from The Oxford English Dictionary.

1. human creative skill or its application
4. human skill or workmanship as opposed the work of nature
5. a skill, aptitude, or knack.

On all those counts social tango is an art but it isn't tangible like
a painting. It's certainly creative if you get beyond repetitious movement
and can respond meaningfully to the music. There is an art or a knack
in interpreting and moving as one to the music and I would argue that
it takes the abilities of two artists (man and woman) for that to happen.

But it isn't art for anyone else, and when the dance is over it's gone.

[JohnEm]

An anecdote (while it's fresh in my mind). I was at a thinly attended social dance last night, and the DJ usually plays a couple of AT songs for the sake of the few who dance a little tango (not very authentically, as it happens, but BR dancers do like to dabble). On came Canaro/Maida's Poema (not an obvious choice for such a setting), and no one got up. I swallowed hard, and invited a BR dancer (not a tanguera) of a good standard to 'come for a walk with me to music', and we were the only couple on the floor, and off we went. Just walks, weight changes in place, little rocks, and small turns (more or less ocho cortado) but very gently (there isn't much you can follow if you have never danced tango, and don't know how the lead/follow process is meant to work). But we made a nice, simple dance. What made it work was the connection: this was someone I dance with very frequently, and she is used to the 'feel' of my lead, but she had never danced in CE before, but she followed very competently (all things considered).

Now here's the interesting thing. Not only was it obvious, the moment the music stopped, that our dancing had been watched intently, but a small group from one of my current BR beginner classes came over and asked, with obvious and genuine interest, what it was that we had been dancing. I explained, and a lady asked how my partner knew what steps to dance, and I explained a little further. 'It was lovely', she said, 'we must try that'. And they did. They asked the DJ to play it again, and now six of us got up: four of whom had never seen, let alone danced social tango, and we went a little walk around the room, stepping with the gentle beat, making some double-time steps with the music. There was a lot wrong with it (!), but afterwards, the ladies were all but glowing with satisfaction, and the men looked as though they had just experienced a breakthrough in their understanding of the nature of dance. 'I wish we could have filmed that', one of them said.

If only all art was as accessible.
That's a great story.
And that indeed is one way to draw people into true social AT.

[LoveTango]

I think if it is enjoyed or being recorded and enjoyed by others, then it is art. However, my purpose of dancing AT is not to create a piece of art work.

Well, but it is art not science that helps us dance better.

[dchester]

Is social tango "art"
To me, art is certainly an aspect of it, so in one sense, Yes. However, art may not be the only aspect of social tango. Depending on the people involved, there can also be an exhilaration aspect, possibly an affectionate aspect, a cooperative aspect (floorcraft), etc.

But there is no doubt in my mind that there is an artistic aspect to two people moving together as one, to the music. It not only can effect the two people participating, but can move the emotions of observers, as well.

Of course, some art is a lot better than others.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[AndaBien]

...Is it the music that produces the emotional response or a mix of you, your partner and the music? If the music is the primary sourse for you both to respond does that then make your individual responses art?

The music may stimulate an emotion in me, but it can't cause the emotion. The emotion can only come from me. The same music might stimulate a different emotion in another person.

It's the same for me, not causing, but stimulating an emotion from my partner, and vice versa. When the emotions coming from each of us are the same, stimulated by the situation, we can have a very satisfying emotional dance.

I don't think I'd go so far as to say it would be, therefore, an artistic dance. Somehow, art is greater than emotion, I think.

[newbie]

An anecdote (while it's fresh in my mind)....

Depends more on the studio than on the dance. When in my years of BR pupil, I once visited the weekly practise of another studio, where people are taught their role. Like, the woman takes a side step at beat #4 because she knows she has to, so does the man (with the other foot) and this way they can dance together. Nobody knew me, the ladies were pretending they were not seeing me. After the first dance though the follower hurried back to her chair and I heard her saying "Girls! He was leading my steps!"

[AndaBien]

Depends more on the studio than on the dance. When in my years of BR pupil, I once visited the weekly practise of another studio, where people are taught their role. Like, the woman takes a side step at beat #4 because she knows she has to, so does the man (with the other foot) and this way they can dance together. Nobody knew me, the ladies were pretending they were not seeing me. After the first dance though the follower hurried back to her chair and I heard her saying "Girls! He was leading my steps!"

Too funny.

[salthepal]

To clarify my original comment which precipitated this thread. I'm not saying that social dancing is not an art. However, in my mind, art is something deliberate, with superb technique, that aims to reach and/or impress a large of number of people.

But, then again, who am I to define what art is? What if someone, while bored in a lecture, doodled a sketch on the back of their notebook, and that sketch was amazingly beautiful? Is it not art? It probably is, even though that person was not trying to make a piece of art at the time; he or she was just doodling to pass time. So I guess in the same sense, my social dancing could be considered, post-hoc, to be art. I still think however, that social tango is about the process, not the end result, i.e. if I'm trying hard to make it a piece of art while I'm dancing it, then I'll probably miss the magic moment. Which would be sad, because I dance tango to have this special moment and to be able to share it.

edit: I just realized, that maybe I am making art while I'm dancing, but an art piece aimed only at my dance partner. This truly is a trippy topic :)

[dchester]

To clarify my original comment which precipitated this thread. I'm not saying that social dancing is not an art. However, in my mind, art is something deliberate, with superb technique, that aims to reach and/or impress a large of number of people.

But, then again, who am I to define what art is? What if someone, while bored in a lecture, doodled a sketch on the back of their notebook, and that sketch was amazingly beautiful? Is it not art? It probably is, even though that person was not trying to make a piece of art at the time; he or she was just doodling to pass time. So I guess in the same sense, my social dancing could be considered, post-hoc, to be art. I still think however, that social tango is about the process, not the end result, i.e. if I'm trying hard to make it a piece of art while I'm dancing it, then I'll probably miss the magic moment. Which would be sad, because I dance tango to have this special moment and to be able to share it.

edit: I just realized, that maybe I am making art while I'm dancing, but an art piece aimed only at my dance partner. This truly is a trippy topic :)

I would agree with this.

[AndaBien]

To clarify my original comment which precipitated this thread. I'm not saying that social dancing is not an art. However, in my mind, art is something deliberate, with superb technique, that aims to reach and/or impress a large of number of people.

But, then again, who am I to define what art is? What if someone, while bored in a lecture, doodled a sketch on the back of their notebook, and that sketch was amazingly beautiful? Is it not art? It probably is, even though that person was not trying to make a piece of art at the time; he or she was just doodling to pass time. So I guess in the same sense, my social dancing could be considered, post-hoc, to be art. I still think however, that social tango is about the process, not the end result, i.e. if I'm trying hard to make it a piece of art while I'm dancing it, then I'll probably miss the magic moment. Which would be sad, because I dance tango to have this special moment and to be able to share it.

edit: I just realized, that maybe I am making art while I'm dancing, but an art piece aimed only at my dance partner. This truly is a trippy topic :)

Trippy is right.

Any music is about the process, rather than the end result. So is Tibetan Sand Painting. the monks may not think of it as art, but most observers probably do.

There are tribes in Africa that decorate their houses with geometric designs, which many people consider to be art. In the tribe, however, there is no word for artist, because everybody does it.

Maybe art is in the embrace of the beholder.

[Zoopsia59]

Dancing, even socially, can be creative and expressive... to me, that's the heart and soul of art.

Everything beyond that is just ranking, judging, and critiquing based on viewer subjectivity.

If the creator feels that s/he expressed what they intended, then that is their "art".

Disclaimer: not everyone who is moving while music is playing is creating or expressing.

[tangomonkey]

Dancing, even socially, can be creative and expressive... to me, that's the heart and soul of art.

Everything beyond that is just ranking, judging, and critiquing based on viewer subjectivity.

If the creator feels that s/he expressed what they intended, then that is their "art".

Disclaimer: not everyone who is moving while music is playing is creating or expressing.



I very much agree with this on an individual level. In the big picture of Art with a capital A (the Fine Arts), less so...Art exists independently of an individual's perception or awareness of it

Subjectivity may even be a defining characteristic of art, but there is informed and uninformed subjectivity. An example - we all listen to tango music and we enjoy it (I assume). How many of us just loved it the very first time we heard those scratchy old recordings? Our appreciation has developed through familiarity. The music (the Art) did not change, we did. Subjectivity remains though - we may prefer certain orquestas or certain pieces more than others. Our likes and dislikes are more informed, but still subjective.

Maybe we shouldn't think in terms of social dance being art or not. Let's simply say feeling and expressing the music, sharing our emotions with our partners is artfull.

[Zoopsia59]

"Dancing is the loftiest, the most moving, the most beautiful of the arts, because it is no mere translation or abstraction from life; it is life itself." -Havelock Ellis

[tangomonkey]

"Dancing is the loftiest, the most moving, the most beautiful of the arts, because it is no mere translation or abstraction from life; it is life itself." -Havelock Ellis

Dance is a performing art. The OP asked if social tango is art. Add "Social tango" to the start of that quote and it sounds more than a bit hyperbolic.

[bordertangoman]

For some reason this reminds me of Dr Seuess's story the Big Brag..

"Well boys," the worm answered, "that look that I took was a look that looked farther than you'll ever look! I looked across the ocean, way out to Japan. For I can see farther than anyone can. There's no one on earth who has eyesight that's finer. I looked past Japan. Then I looked across China. I looked across Egypt: then took a quick glance across the two countries Holland and France. Then I looked across England and , also, Brazil. But I didn't stop there. I looked much further still. And I kept right on looking and looking until. I had looked around the workd and right back to this hill! And I saw on this hill, since my eyesight's so keen, the two biggest fools that have ever been seen! And the fools that I saw were none other than you, Who seem to have nothing else better to do than sit here and argue who's better than who!"

[tangomonkey]

For some reason this reminds me of Dr Seuess's story the Big Brag..

"Well boys," the worm answered, "that look that I took was a look that looked farther than you'll ever look! I looked across the ocean, way out to Japan. For I can see farther than anyone can. There's no one on earth who has eyesight that's finer. I looked past Japan. Then I looked across China. I looked across Egypt: then took a quick glance across the two countries Holland and France. Then I looked across England and , also, Brazil. But I didn't stop there. I looked much further still. And I kept right on looking and looking until. I had looked around the workd and right back to this hill! And I saw on this hill, since my eyesight's so keen, the two biggest fools that have ever been seen! And the fools that I saw were none other than you, Who seem to have nothing else better to do than sit here and argue who's better than who!"

"Argue who's better than who" - really? Not so. In the field of aesthetics philosophers ask and attempt answers to questions of what is beauty and what is art and how such things are perceived and judged. There are university courses and degrees granted. Discussion is valid. Consensus is difficult.

Anyway, definitions don't matter. I will continue to dance AT until I can no longer walk.

[bordertangoman]

"Argue who's better than who" - really? Not so. In the field of aesthetics philosophers ask and attempt answers to questions of what is beauty and what is art and how such things are perceived and judged. There are university courses and degrees granted. Discussion is valid. Consensus is difficult.

Anyway, definitions don't matter. I will continue to dance AT until I can no longer walk.

granted, but its only a folk dance........

[tangomonkey]

granted, but its only a folk dance........

Our beloved folk dance is getting noticed in academia...

[Tango-L] Call for Papers/Presentations for a Tango Academic Conference

Tango360T 2011 CONFERENCE THEMES
For 2011, the Tango360T conference will have four main themes:

- "Tango as an Academic Pursuit" - Can one expect to soon see Argentine
Tango as an undergraduate degree program at the University level in the
United States? What progress is being made? What would such a program look
like? Can we develop a consensus on what to include? What to discard? Are
there existing historical models of a "street art" becoming "academically
respectable"? Is such respectability even desirable?

The rest is here http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg13122.html

[bordertangoman]

Our beloved folk dance is getting noticed in academia...

[Tango-L] Call for Papers/Presentations for a Tango Academic Conference

Tango360T 2011 CONFERENCE THEMES
For 2011, the Tango360T conference will have four main themes:

- "Tango as an Academic Pursuit" - Can one expect to soon see Argentine
Tango as an undergraduate degree program at the University level in the
United States? What progress is being made? What would such a program look
like? Can we develop a consensus on what to include? What to discard? Are
there existing historical models of a "street art" becoming "academically
respectable"? Is such respectability even desirable?

The rest is here http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg13122.html

thanks I liked this aspect

"Tango: the Shadow Side" - For all the pleasure that many of us draw from
tango, why are so many tango aficionados so unhappy so much of the time?
Does tango make you meaner and less compassionate, or the opposite - or
both? Is tango actually a fantastic tool for exploring and coming to grips
with the shadow side within each of us, whether or not we see such a quest
in spiritual terms? What level of responsibility for their "shadow side"
would it be useful to expect of ourselves and our fellow tango aficionados?

[dchester]

Our beloved folk dance is getting noticed in academia...

[Tango-L] Call for Papers/Presentations for a Tango Academic Conference

Tango360T 2011 CONFERENCE THEMES
For 2011, the Tango360T conference will have four main themes:

- "Tango as an Academic Pursuit" - Can one expect to soon see Argentine
Tango as an undergraduate degree program at the University level in the
United States? What progress is being made? What would such a program look
like? Can we develop a consensus on what to include? What to discard? Are
there existing historical models of a "street art" becoming "academically
respectable"? Is such respectability even desirable?

The rest is here http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg13122.html (http://pythia.uoregon.edu/%7Ellynch/Tango-L/2006/msg13122.html)
Here is the link to the conference/festival page.

http://www.danceoftheheart.com/Tango360Experience2011.htm

[Zoopsia59]

Dance is a performing art. The OP asked if social tango is art. Add "Social tango" to the start of that quote and it sounds more than a bit hyperbolic.

I disagree... social tango is also life itself.. maybe even more so. Performance dance is much more of an abstraction.

[tangomonkey]

I disagree... social tango is also life itself.. maybe even more so. Performance dance is much more of an abstraction.


Perhaps so, and I have no real opposing view. Its the hyperbole I dislike. No one thing (to me) is "life itself". I love dancing, listening and talking about tango music but it is not my life. It is an important part of my life but it is far from "life itself".

I don't think we are that far apart...

[Zoopsia59]

.
I don't think we are that far apart...

Sure.. except that part about dance being/not being life.
For me it is.

[tangomonkey]

Sure.. except that part about dance being/not being life.
For me it is.

OK.

Dance is something I do to music I like. Music, if anything could possibly be "life itself", is that for me. The dancing is a very big plus, but the music comes first for me. If I don't enjoy the music the dance will suffer, suffer badly. There are many pieces I will not dance to - at least at this point in time. Perhaps that is a limitation. I think it goes a long way towards explaining our difference of opinion.

And let's not attempt defining what "life itself" means........................................

[Zoopsia59]

OK.
If I don't enjoy the music the dance will suffer, suffer badly. There are many pieces I will not dance to - at least at this point in time. Perhaps that is a limitation. I think it goes a long way towards explaining our difference of opinion.

I can dance to almost anything... (that's not to say I can TANGO to anything). And the few things that don't make good dance music, usually do make good skating music. I have given up ever having music playing while I do anything, because I immediately just want to stop what I'm doing and start moving to it (or start "choreographing" in my head if I can't get up)

[tangomonkey]

I can dance to almost anything... (that's not to say I can TANGO to anything). And the few things that don't make good dance music, usually do make good skating music. I have given up ever having music playing while I do anything, because I immediately just want to stop what I'm doing and start moving to it (or start "choreographing" in my head if I can't get up)

:cool: You are lucky.

[tangomonkey]

:cool: You are lucky.

Zoops - On the way to my lesson tonight I was thinking about what you said about not being able to stand still when you hear music. You are a dancer; I am a musician who dances.

I made little progress until I realized I had to seriously study the repertoire, know a great many pieces inside out. I dance best to music I have internalized that way. And my followers have noticed a change. In those moments when everything is going well, I feel like a dancer. They are becoming more frequent :D

[dchester]

Zoops - On the way to my lesson tonight I was thinking about what you said about not being able to stand still when you hear music. You are a dancer; I am a musician who dances.

I made little progress until I realized I had to seriously study the repertoire, know a great many pieces inside out. I dance best to music I have internalized that way. And my followers have noticed a change. In those moments when everything is going well, I feel like a dancer. They are becoming more frequent :D
As for me, I made very little progress until I learned how to dance.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[tangomonkey]

As for me, I made very little progress until I learned how to dance.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I think that's what I'm saying too...:cheers: