How do you know when you're trying hard enough?

[pygmalion]

We've all had those days (or weeks or months LOL) when we've hit a plateau, perhaps, and just don't seem to be making progress. Or we feel like we're not performing our best. Or we just can't remember the figure, or get the technique, or whatever.


Sometimes, pushing ourselves a little harder may help. Sometimes, it doesn't. So here's a question. How do you know when you really are doing the best you can, but just have to wait for breaktrhough? Can you tell when you're "slacking," comparatively speaking, versus when you're pushing right to the limit? How?



Thanks for the topics. You know who you are. :)

[jenibelle]

Hey Jenn!
Awesome topic! The way I see it, is that there is no "waiting for breakthrough." You have to always push it, even if you're ... hmm, how do I say it?...."actively resting." I'll try to explain a bit better. You know how when you learn a new concept, it often takes days or weeks for it to sink in? People often say "Well, if I forget about it for a few days, I'll get it" and lo and behold, a week later they understand it! That's not because they shoved it out of their mind and all of a sudden it clicks. It's because they are always working on it, bit by bit, even if they don't realize it. A difficult concept for example, can be achieved if one has patience, if he allows his body the time it needs for it to sink in, but all the same FORCES it to sink in as much as he can. Hmmm I hope that this makes sense...maybe if I (LOL) think about it for a while it'll come to me how to explain it better :D :D :D

As for doing the best you can...I think that you can ALWAYS do better. If you EVER stop and say to yourself, "you know I'm doing the best I can and I'm happy with it," then I think that's trouble right there! For myself, if i'm not always pushing myself then I get stagnant and my energy level goes down. Then it could also depend on how serious the dancer is, etc etc.

I hope you guys can decipher this!
Jeni

[Sagitta]

Let me answer this topic in an abstract sort of way... :)

These sort of questions seem to address each of us as a person and how aware we are of ourselves. How we take facts and make stories that translate into emotions/feelings. How we can peel apart the layers and understand why we do what we do allows us to understand whether we really need rest, time for muscle memory to push in, or push ourselves harder...

[Chris Stratton]

How many toenails do you still have?



More seriously, hard work is good, but sometimes you actually have to step back a bit to make progress. Some of my most 'breakthrough' advances have actually come when I suddenly cut back after a few months of intense work. Then I'd have time to think about things more, and one day I'd just be fooling around no where near a proper dance floor and suddenly and effortlessly do some dance action 30% better than I ever had before.

[DWise1]

I was in this type of discussion just the other day in a C/C++ programming forum. Every programmer (and, indeed, everyone whose work involves troubleshooting and real-life problem solving) comes up against code that doesn't work right and yet they cannot find the programming error that is causing the problem. And no matter how long or how hard they bang their head against it, they still cannot find that error.

What does work is to change your perspective a bit and approach the problem from a different angle (eg, instead of reading the code, explain it to somebody) or else to work on something else (this allowing your brain to subconsciously grind away at the problem without you constantly getting in its way with your head-banging).

Similarly, in dancing I find that the harder I try to get a particular step or move, the worse I do. So pushing harder rarely helps me. Instead, I try to relax so that I can push less hard (ie, to try to allow it to happen instead of trying to force it). Or I might also try to think my way through it a bit differently, trying to see what is needed for it to work. Or between classes I might attend somebody else's workshop or use a different form of dance during which the solution presents itself. And often times just be having been gone for that week I would suddenly be able to do that move that I couldn't figure out the week before.


But then, the reasons I'm in dance don't require me to perfect my technique. This is my social life, especially the classes -- most of the socializing at the dances are inbetween the actually dancing sitting with people I know from class. I don't even expect to get good at dancing -- I'm sure I've internalized my wife's highly pessimistic assessment of my abilities so that when I fail I had expected it, but when I succeed then I am very pleasantly surprised (it's actually kind of a positive outlook, and the feedback I constantly get from my partners tells me that I'm not as bad as I think I am). Of course, I do want to develop my technique to where my partners will actually enjoy dancing with me, but I also know that I can't force it.

PS
Reading through the other responses, I realized that it may sound like I'm advocating being laxadasical. Far from it. I keep at it, keep stretching by taking on new challenges, and work through it in my mind (and sometimes with my feet -- I've got to do that with the St.Louis Shag basic step this week) when I'm not in dance class. But I go into those new challenges knowing that I'll undoubtedly need to repeat those classes a few times before I do finally "get it". But that's alright, because it means more socializing.

[dancin_feet]

My instructor tells me when I'm not trying hard enough. It's a case of "lazy day again, eh?" :lol: :lol:

Seriously though I have learnt to be patient with myself. I have in the past gotten overly frustrated that I can understand a concept but I either can't make myself do it, or it is very inconsistent that one minute I'm struggling and the next I'm coping well.

Pushing myself hard only serves to frustrate me more and therefore, I'm not relaxed enough to be able to do what I am trying to do. Sure I push myself, and work on concepts that I don't quite understand, but once I understand it, I know it will only be a matter of time and practice before I am getting it consistently. Pushing myself only holds me back.

As an example, I have been struggling with backwards extensions in my smooth dancing for months now. Haven't been able to get it consistently through an entire figure. I practiced really hard and pushed myself in the beginning and ended up getting frustrated that I still couldn't do it. I have since stopped practicing that aspect and concentrated on other things. This week during a lesson, another instructor commented to us that my extensions were working a lot better and more consistently than they had seen in the past. I didn't even realise that I was getting better, it just seemed to fall into place! :o

Dare I say ........

If you lay the groundwork, it will come. 8)

[tsb]

I was in this type of discussion just the other day in a C/C++ programming forum. Every programmer (and, indeed, everyone whose work involves troubleshooting and real-life problem solving) comes up against code that doesn't work right and yet they cannot find the programming error that is causing the problem. And no matter how long or how hard they bang their head against it, they still cannot find that error.

What does work is to change your perspective a bit and approach the problem from a different angle (eg, instead of reading the code, explain it to somebody) or else to work on something else (this allowing your brain to subconsciously grind away at the problem without you constantly getting in its way with your head-banging).


debugging code is a good analogy. when you don't know what the problem is, predicting the time it'll take to remedy the situation is extremely difficult. and in cases where the solution is not obvvious, rather than working harder, the solution generally involves going back to analyzing the fundamentals & the underlying assumptions.

[Chris Stratton]

I tried putting some debug printf's in a tango sequence, but when it came time to link we got an 'unresolved external' error.

[DWise1]

I tried putting some debug printf's in a tango sequence, but when it came time to link we got an 'unresolved external' error.
Well, that wouldn't have happened if you had checked your ....

Oh darn! If I were to complete that joke then we'd lose our rating.

[DWise1]

I was in this type of discussion just the other day in a C/C++ programming forum. Every programmer (and, indeed, everyone whose work involves troubleshooting and real-life problem solving) comes up against code that doesn't work right and yet they cannot find the programming error that is causing the problem. And no matter how long or how hard they bang their head against it, they still cannot find that error.

What does work is to change your perspective a bit and approach the problem from a different angle (eg, instead of reading the code, explain it to somebody) or else to work on something else (this allowing your brain to subconsciously grind away at the problem without you constantly getting in its way with your head-banging).


debugging code is a good analogy. when you don't know what the problem is, predicting the time it'll take to remedy the situation is extremely difficult. and in cases where the solution is not obvvious, rather than working harder, the solution generally involves going back to analyzing the fundamentals & the underlying assumptions.
Which actually also applies to dancing. We learn a particular step or move one way and we can get it to work, but only sometimes. When that happens, I find that I have to go back and challenge my assumptions about that move.

Though I've found that most of the trouble I have in dancing are due to timing errors [grin].



when mozart was my age, he'd been dead for eight years...

Yeah, it's people like that who make me realize how little I've accomplished.

[inside joke]
But did you also know that doing arithmetic in base 8 is exactly like doing it in base 10 ... if you're missing two fingers.
[/inside joke]

I wonder if he's still teaching math at UC Santa Cruz?

[tsb]

you're probably one of the few (in DF) who was actually alive when TWTWTW came out.

i did modify the line to reflect my own age though.

now i'm going to go poison pigeons in the park.

but first, the masochism tango!

[Chris Stratton]

And we both turned quite green
To the strains of the Wiener Schnitzel Waltz

[DWise1]

you're probably one of the few (in DF) who was actually alive when TWTWTW came out.

i did modify the line to reflect my own age though.

now i'm going to go poison pigeons in the park.

but first, the masochism tango!
I actually did not discover TW3 until its second season. It was on Tuesday nights and Peyton Place was on at the same time on Tues & Thurs. Needless to say, I frequently lost out to my older sister, but I did get to see some of it.

According to a radio report on "All Things Considered", those shows were done live and there is no archive film nor tape of them. A fan did audio-tape the shows, which constitutes just about the only record of them.

[inside joke]
I still worry about that poor blonde who would sing the intros. That long hair causes such a strain on the brain.
[/inside joke]

Besides the intro to "National Brotherhood Week" (all the violence and threats of reprisals in the wake of Malcolm X's assassination which happened, ironically, in the first few days of National Brotherhood Week) and the man in military uniform singing "So Long, Mom, I'm Off to Drop the Bomb", that's about all I can remember from the show itself. I knew that David Frost hosted it, but it wasn't until ATC's report that I learned that Alan Alda was also on it.



So until they come to get me, I will hold your hand in mine.

[cl5814]

We've all had those days (or weeks or months LOL) when we've hit a plateau, perhaps, and just don't seem to be making progress. Or we feel like we're not performing our best. Or we just can't remember the figure, or get the technique, or whatever.


I have thought about this lately.......i seem to have hit a 'plateau'. I have even had comments from dance buddies that i have not been on the dance floor too much lately - implying that my dancing is not too great at the moment - when in fact, i am not really dancing less. Actually this was the first indication that i might have hit another plateau..... deciding what to do about it, i think i am in the category of "not performing my best".

[tsb]

you're probably one of the few (in DF) who was actually alive when TWTWTW came out.

i did modify the line to reflect my own age though.

now i'm going to go poison pigeons in the park.

but first, the masochism tango!
I actually did not discover TW3 until its second season. It was on Tuesday nights and Peyton Place was on at the same time on Tues & Thurs. Needless to say, I frequently lost out to my older sister, but I did get to see some of it.

According to a radio report on "All Things Considered", those shows were done live and there is no archive film nor tape of them. A fan did audio-tape the shows, which constitutes just about the only record of them.

[inside joke]
I still worry about that poor blonde who would sing the intros. That long hair causes such a strain on the brain.
[/inside joke]

Besides the intro to "National Brotherhood Week" (all the violence and threats of reprisals in the wake of Malcolm X's assassination which happened, ironically, in the first few days of National Brotherhood Week) and the man in military uniform singing "So Long, Mom, I'm Off to Drop the Bomb", that's about all I can remember from the show itself. I knew that David Frost hosted it, but it wasn't until ATC's report that I learned that Alan Alda was also on it.


So until they come to get me, I will hold your hand in mine.


i just went and listened to "an evening with tom lehrer" (mainly to give a few others a clue as to what we're babbling about here).