How many swing communities?

[pygmalion]

Another silly question. How come there's a lindy hop community, a shag community, a west coast swing community, a bop community, and so on? Other places in the dance world, like dances are grouped together -- vintage dance, ballroom dance, line dance, country and western dance ...


So what's the deal with swing? At least from the outside, there appear to be many different communities. Is that true from the inside? Is there a common thread (other than the obvious LOL) which holds all the swing communities together?

(I have a theory, of course. But posting it would kill the thread, so I'll restrain myself. LOL.)

[jon]

Shrug. The dance cultures involved differ in many, many ways, and mostly branched off from each other decades ago. Asking why people have one set of preferences and not another is a psychology question, not a dance question.

BTW, in what ways - other than they all being part of the contemporary American ballroom syllabus - do you think ECS, Waltz, and Tango are "like dances"?

[jon]

Is there a common thread (other than the obvious LOL) which holds all the swing communities together?

Well, we all like to make fun of ballroom dancers.

[Vince A]

Is there a common thread (other than the obvious LOL) which holds all the swing communities together?

Well, we all like to make fun of ballroom dancers.
Absolutely!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[pygmalion]

Shrug. The dance cultures involved differ in many, many ways, and mostly branched off from each other decades ago. Asking why people have one set of preferences and not another is a psychology question, not a dance question.

BTW, in what ways - other than they all being part of the contemporary American ballroom syllabus - do you think ECS, Waltz, and Tango are "like dances"?

:tongue: That was my theory, silly man. They're alike in the same way that underdeveloped countries in Asia and Africa are alike. Somebody who knew not much about them grouped them all together for the sake of convenience (or natural geographic boundaries LOL). No rivers in swing, so I guess ballroom parameters don't apply particularly well. :wink: :o

[Jmatthew]

Actually all the different swing dances evolved from the same roots. I'm pretty sure it would be very safe to say that Lindy is way way more evolutionarily related to shag than it would be to say that Waltz is related to Tango.

I think swing has different communities because there's little financial incentive to group them up into one community. Most swing dances seem to be pretty independent entities, where even an hour's drive can create two different styles of the same dance, since there's no headquarters or congress or anyone else telling us what's "right" or "wrong" or "correct" or "incorrect." I think in that aspect swing is still a street dance. It's definately not a syllabus dance (with the exception of what little of it has been sucked into the ballroom world, although I don't really consider that swing, as much as I consider it a pathetic attempt by the ballroom financiers to suck swingers into their money trap. :)

So I guess the simple answer to your question is: Some people swing one way, some people swing another. :)

[swinginstyle]

If there is one thing that divides the swing community, say west coast versus lindy versus east coast, I would say music. Each group has distaste toward the other types of swing because of the music. It's too contemporary, it doesn't swing, it's too fast, it's too old, it's too slow, etc.

[jon]

I think swing has different communities because there's little financial incentive to group them up into one community.

In the sense that most efforts to mix up Lindy and WCS dancers on the same floor fail to attract either group as much as more focused dances, yeah :-) Really the only way that seems to work with some reliability is to have two different dance floors in the same building, which doesn't build a whole lot of "community".

Most swing dances seem to be pretty independent entities, where even an hour's drive can create two different styles of the same dance, since there's no headquarters or congress or anyone else telling us what's "right" or "wrong" or "correct" or "incorrect."

Between videotapes and Southwest Airlines and conventions and travelling instructors, the regional speciation of swing has lessened a lot. Instead we seem to have slow global shifts in music and tempos and styles that are adopted to greater or lesser degree by different groups. In the WCS case, at least, some of this seems to be driven by top-ranked competitors branching off in some new direction and a core of people trying to emulate them. Not sure how Lindy shifts like Hollywood or "Groove" become adopted.

[shopper-lisa]

hi - I was reading the friendly banter and have overheard comments about ballroom dancer. I am new to swing and have never done any ballroom so I was wondering about the jokes... is it because ballroom is more formal? Is it like a friendly rivalry or something?

[Jmatthew]

The diferences between ballroom dancers and swing dancers are like...

Not to be harsh, but in my mind it's kind of like the difference between me and my dad...

Like, he's old and stuff, very very cool, and he has his stuff, and it's good, and sometime's it's fun to go hang out and do old guy stuff with my dad....

but MY STUFF is funner. :)

And, realize, that that is not at all a fair assesment of ballroom dancing, BUT I think it's a pretty decent analogy for how most of the Lindy scene sees it. It's a dance for grown ups, with rules and regulations, expensive costumes, judges, they hang out in hotels, have books that tell them what to do, etc...

Lindy is in dark little clubs with loud music, we sleep on each others floors, we live on power bars and gatorade, get sweaty, wear gym clothes or kakhis (sp?) and a t-shirt, and we dance however we want to dance (as long as our technique is good...) and stay up till 2 am and think that we're the best and no one has ever been as cool as we are before... :)

and of course then we get older and we realize that MAYBE west coast is okay after all, and you know, waltz is kind of romantic and fun, and that foxtrot stuff really doesn't do the number on my knees like Lindy does... ;)

[Diavo]

Jmatthew, how you see yourself & Lindy Hoppers as compared to Ballroom dancers is how my friends & I and the "swing dancers not limited to Lindy" [from another topic] compare ourselves to "regular" (sometimes aka Nazi) Lindy Hoppers. :wink: :wink:
We will all get along fine if we merely respect each other's preferences. :)

[Jmatthew]

Jmatthew, how you see yourself & Lindy Hoppers as compared to Ballroom dancers is how my friends & I and the "swing dancers not limited to Lindy" [from another topic] compare ourselves to "regular" (sometimes aka Nazi) Lindy Hoppers. Wink Wink
We will all get along fine if we merely respect each other's preferences. Smile

Oh I'm not saying we don't get along with ballroom dancers or anything. Hell I teach community classes in social ballroom. I was just trying to illustrate the sort of good-natured differences that get joked about between Lindy hoppers and most other dancers.

This has nothing to do with dance nazis of any flavor who think their dance is the "right" dance and all others are evil.

[etchuck]

Okay, I identify myself more as a ballroomer than I do as a lindyhopper though I have been doing my best to do it all well. Setsuna also does both lindy and ballroom, though I think her experience probably leans more on the lindy side than I do, but I'll let her confirm that.

I will also state, you get the same ribbing if we're talking salsa vs ballroom.

Is the reason they think "other dances" are evil because they don't want to learn to dance it? Ballroomers don't generally have that attitude because... well, we have to learn 8-10 dances anyway. I do think styling and differences in presentation of frame are the differences, but lead-follow to me is very similar.

[shopper-lisa]

I think though that the explanation about you verses your dad helps me sort of understand the vibe I've been picking up. It seems like very friendly joking back and forth. I think both types of dances greatly respect and like the others... and I think dancers just love to dance and kind of like all forms (we just don't have enough time to learn EVERYTHING). But anyhow, not knowing much about any of it... I get the sense that Lindy is more of an informal "no rules" kind of dance and that ballroom is more ellegant and that there are "right" and "wrong" ways to do it. At any rate... I really appreciated the analogy of dancing in dark clubs, verses dancing with your dad. I am excited to learn ballroom too. Though Lindy is so challenging for me that I am sure it will be quite a while before I try to pick up another type of dance. Would you say Salsa is even more extreme than lindy in terms of it's "freedom" or in the middle of ballroom and swing/Lindy?

[shopper-lisa]

Jmatthew, how you see yourself & Lindy Hoppers as compared to Ballroom dancers is how my friends & I and the "swing dancers not limited to Lindy" [from another topic] compare ourselves to "regular" (sometimes aka Nazi) Lindy Hoppers. :wink: :wink:
We will all get along fine if we merely respect each other's preferences. :)

what's the disctinction between regular lindy hoppers and the other kind you were mentioning? I didn't know there were different kinds...?

[Jmatthew]

what's the disctinction between regular lindy hoppers and the other kind you were mentioning? I didn't know there were different kinds...?

Ugh, this could be areally long thread all on it's own. Let's see if I can break it down in a way that makes sense and doesn't take 1000 pages. :)

There's different types of Lindy Hoppers based along stylistic lines. The more "classic" style is Savoy Style, whose roots theoretically go back to the Savoy Ballroom and the earliest forms of Lindy Hop. The more "neo" style is "smooth," "hollywood," or "Dean Martin" style (and some people will break these down too, but I think they're close enough to throw into one style for this discussion.)

So that's just styling differences in HOW people dance.

THEN, there is a philosophical difference between two groups of Lindy Hoppers, those that feel that it should be "preserved" in it's original form and anyone that deviates from classic lindy hop and classic lindy moves is some sort of evil person, vs those that think of it as a social dance that can be modified at will by the community who dances it.

[shopper-lisa]

that's very interesting... thanks for explaining

[Doug]

...The more "neo" style is "smooth," "hollywood," or "Dean Martin" style ...
Dean Collins style?? Didn't know Dean Martin was a Lindy hopper? :)

[Jmatthew]

Dean Collins style?? Didn't know Dean Martin was a Lindy hopper?

er, ya, that's what I get for posting on 2 hours of sleep. :)