OK, here's my first attempt at a syllabus...

[Dave Bailey]

Based on contributions from a few people, I've put up a series of topics on the discussion area of my Facebook Group "Learning Tango (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=53870566840)" - some people have already commented on these topics, so thanks for that.

If you'd like to see and comment on these topics, all comments are welcome - it's an open group so you can add yourself to it.

Alternatively, please feel free to comment on this thread also, and I'll try to integrate these comments in to that discussion.

The idea initially is to get a single list of basic topics and simple descriptions for each topic. Once that's done, I can start to organise the topics into some kind of learning structure. Possibly with shiny medals :lol:

[UKDancer]

Possibly with shiny medals :lol:

You must have shiny medals! (Gags, quietly). ;)

Can I suggest that FB isn't going to work for what you have in mind? I've been playing with much the same sort of ideas for a while, too (but haven't really got very far), but I'm convinced that what's wanted is a wiki format. Somewhere to maintain page content (with access to prior versions) and discussion pages for each topic.

FB won't let you do that, and as far as I can tell, you can't actually edit what you've got - so it grows like topsy, includes all those potentially embarrassing first and second drafts, and becomes unmanageable very quickly.

Obviously, this is not intended as any sort of criticism of the substantive content - just a suggestion regarding the mechanics.

[Dave Bailey]

You must have shiny medals! (Gags, quietly). ;)
Shiny medals are on the plan, don't worry.

Can I suggest that FB isn't going to work for what you have in mind? I've been playing with much the same sort of ideas for a while, too (but haven't really got very far), but I'm convinced that what's wanted is a wiki format. Somewhere to maintain page content (with access to prior versions) and discussion pages for each topic.

FB won't let you do that, and as far as I can tell, you can't actually edit what you've got - so it grows like topsy, includes all those potentially embarrassing first and second drafts, and becomes unmanageable very quickly.

Obviously, this is not intended as any sort of criticism of the substantive content - just a suggestion regarding the mechanics.
I agree that it's not ideal, but setting up a Wiki is a bit too technical for me, plus there's about 200 Tango Wikis out there already.

At least in this case, it gives an opportunity for people to comment on content, and it's easy to set up.

Once I've given enough time to comment - probably another couple of weeks - I'll rewrite the topics based on the feedback, and probably publish that content as a set of grouped pages on my website.

[bordertangoman]

You must have shiny medals! (Gags, quietly). ;)
.

Shiny Boots of leather would be better....

[jantango]

Why would anyone want to attempt to construct a tango syllabus? That takes all the creativity out of an improvised social dance.

[quixotedlm]

Why would anyone want to attempt to construct a tango syllabus? That takes all the creativity out of an improvised social dance.

That's like asking, "why would anyone want to select words, sentences and grammar elements to teach to a novice language student. That would not fit the idea that communication is an extemporaneous articulation of creative ideas". I hope the fallacy in the argument in obvious.

[UKDancer]

I hope the fallacy in the argument in obvious.

I would have thought so!

[bordertangoman]

Why would anyone want to attempt to construct a tango syllabus? That takes all the creativity out of an improvised social dance.

but you are not observing that certain elemnets of tango are "Escenario" rather than milonga; surely a core syllabus could include elements commonly danced at milongas in BSAs. WOuld you comment on pasadas and paradas; I've never liked them as for me they interrrupt the flow of the dance, and the connection. Are they danced other than in performances?

[opendoor]

Why would anyone want to attempt to construct a tango syllabus? That takes all the creativity out of an improvised social dance.

That´s no contradiction. To learn on the dance floor could also be called syllabus if there is expertise and system in it.

[Dave Bailey]

Why would anyone want to attempt to construct a tango syllabus?
Complete and utter megalomania.

Mwuahahahahaha.

[Dave Bailey]

On a serious note:
Why would anyone want to attempt to construct a tango syllabus?
Because I believe, if done right, it will help provide a structure for learning / teaching tango, which will be helpful for teachers and students.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that every decent Tango teacher follows a structure for teaching classes. Rather than just, you know, making it up on the spot every time.

That takes all the creativity out of an improvised social dance.
Achieving competence in every single human artistic activity on the planet - painting, figure-skating, haiku writing, you name it - involves some element of discipline and learning. All of which benefits from being delivered in a structured manner.

For example, Leonardo Da Vinci spent 7 years being formally trained under Verocchio, which training included both theory and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Vinci#Verrocchio.27s_workshop.2C_1466.E2.80.931 476)
technical skills including drafting, chemistry, metallurgy, metal working, plaster casting, leather working, mechanics and carpentry as well as the artistic skills of drawing, painting, sculpting and modelling.
I assume you therefore think that Leonardo Da Vinci lacked creativity, because he received such extensive structured training?

[bordertangoman]

On a serious note:

Because I believe, if done right, it will help provide a structure for learning / teaching tango, which will be helpful for teachers and students.

good point


In fact, I'd be willing to bet that every decent Tango teacher follows a structure for teaching classes. Rather than just, you know, making it up on the spot every time.?

i for one do.


Achieving competence in every single human artistic activity on the planet - painting, figure-skating, haiku writing, you name it - involves some element of discipline and learning. All of which benefits from being delivered in a structured manner.


and occasionally letting people explore... :)

[AndaBien]

...In fact, I'd be willing to bet that every decent Tango teacher follows a structure for teaching classes. Rather than just, you know, making it up on the spot every time..

I don't use a syllabus, and I claim to be a decent teacher.

Instead, I watch my students dance, decide what aspect(s) they could use some work on, then think about ways to present that aspect prior to class.

[pygmalion]

This is a fascinating thread.

My two (untutored) cents? The people here who teach tango seem to have mixed reactions to the word syllabus but seem to more-or-less agree on the kinds of things people need to be taught.** There also seems to be agreement that tango teachers need to think and plan in advance in order to meet their students' needs.

I'm not sure how agreement on a common body of concepts and agreeing to plan in advance is different from a syllabus. But whatever. If the word syllabus is a sticking point, then why not call it something else?


** How to execute those things is, admittedly, a source of seemingly endless conversation. :wink:

[AndaBien]

... seem to more-or-less agree on the kinds of things people need to be taught.** There also seems to be agreement that tango teachers need to think and plan in advance in order to meet their students' needs...

Actually, maybe not. There are all sorts of tango moves I would never teach, because I don't use them in my own dancing. In fact, I think doing certain moves are a distraction from the essence of tango, for me. Other teachers think differently.

I object to the idea of a syllabus because it would tend to standardize the teaching, and therefore the dancing, of tango. I don't think standardizing tango would lead to better tango, if individuality is valued, and I think it is.

Why should I teach tango the same way another teacher does?

[Dave Bailey]

I don't use a syllabus, and I claim to be a decent teacher.

Instead, I watch my students dance, decide what aspect(s) they could use some work on, then think about ways to present that aspect prior to class.
Well, that's kind of following a syllabus. It's simply a reactive one, rather than a pro-active one. Also, what if your students know nothing? I mean, presumably you have to tell them something before they can dance, right?

As a general point, I've noticed that some people seem to have a visceral, and frankly irrational, hatred of the word "syllabus". They think it means The End Of Social Dancing or something.

Admittedly, given some of the syllabuses I've seen, I can see their point...

[Dave Bailey]

I'm not sure how agreement on a common body of concepts and agreeing to plan in advance is different from a syllabus.
Me neither. It's irrational.

But whatever. If the word syllabus is a sticking point, then why not call it something else?
Because that word is a good definition?

[bordertangoman]

Well, that's kind of following a syllabus. It's simply a reactive one, rather than a pro-active one. Also, what if your students know nothing? I mean, presumably you have to tell them something before they can dance, right?

As a general point, I've noticed that some people seem to have a visceral, and frankly irrational, hatred of the word "syllabus". They think it means The End Of Social Dancing or something.

Admittedly, given some of the syllabuses I've seen, I can see their point...

could a syllabus be presented as a venn diagram? ie a series of bubbles with overlap where most people are in agreement, and separate areas to cover differences; eg apilado nuevo...

[Dave Bailey]

Actually, maybe not. There are all sorts of tango moves I would never teach, because I don't use them in my own dancing.
Firstly, that seems a little unfair on your students. Personally, I hate doing the cross in my dancing, but that doesn't mean I don't (at least try to) teach it.

Secondly, a syllabus is not "a list of moves".

I object to the idea of a syllabus because it would tend to standardize the teaching, and therefore the dancing, of tango.
Well obviously we wouldn't want a standardised dance, I mean then people would be able to communicate and dance easily with each other, and that's clearly a bad thing.

I don't think standardizing tango would lead to better tango, if individuality is valued, and I think it is.
It's a question of degree.

As I said earlier, Leonardo Da Vinci followed an intense structured training session. That didn't seem to damage his creativity or individuality...

Why should I teach tango the same way another teacher does?
Because your students would benefit from some degree of standardisation. They wouldn't have to re-learn the dance with every new teacher.

Crazy thought I know.

[Dave Bailey]

could a syllabus be presented as a venn diagram? ie a series of bubbles with overlap where most people are in agreement, and separate areas to cover differences; eg apilado nuevo...
Yeah, or maybe a set of concentric circles, with the outer layers labelled "here be controversy" :)

[dchester]

I object to the idea of a syllabus because it would tend to standardize the teaching, and therefore the dancing, of tango. I don't think standardizing tango would lead to better tango, if individuality is valued, and I think it is.

Why should I teach tango the same way another teacher does?
I don't think that someone creating a syllabus would prevent you from creating a different one. It also wouldn't prevent you from updating it every year, or even every week, for that matter.

[dchester]

Firstly, that seems a little unfair on your students. Personally, I hate doing the cross in my dancing, but that doesn't mean I don't (at least try to) teach it.
Here is where I part ways with you. I would never teach a linear boleo.

[pygmalion]

Me neither. It's irrational.


Because that word is a good definition?


Yes it is. A good definition and a lightning rod. *shrug*

[Subliminal]

could a syllabus be presented as a venn diagram? ie a series of bubbles with overlap where most people are in agreement, and separate areas to cover differences; eg apilado nuevo...

That's a cute idea. I sort of started making a "Spectrum of Tango" graphic, with one end being Subtlety and the other being Complexity. It could work as a venn diagram too.

Or... have any of you ever seen the Map of Metal? We could do one for tango!

http://mapofmetal.com

[AndaBien]

...Well obviously we wouldn't want a standardised dance, I mean then people would be able to communicate and dance easily with each other, and that's clearly a bad thing.

Yes, I think that would be bad. That would turn tango into standard ballroom dancing. I don't object to ballroom dancing, for those people who want a standardized dance.

...As I said earlier, Leonardo Da Vinci followed an intense structured training session. That didn't seem to damage his creativity or individuality...

I am not opposed to training. I just don't think art would be better if every student was trained the same way.

...Because your students would benefit from some degree of standardisation. They wouldn't have to re-learn the dance with every new teacher...

The assumption seems to be that students would benefit from standardized teaching. I don't accept that assumption, and I haven't seen it defended yet.

Why is it good for all students to learn the same way?

[AndaBien]

I don't think that someone creating a syllabus would prevent you from creating a different one. It also wouldn't prevent you from updating it every year, or even every week, for that matter.

I have no objection to a teacher using a syllabus. I just don't like the idea of creating a standard one and suggesting that teaching would be improved by using it.

[dchester]

I have no objection to a teacher using a syllabus. I just don't like the idea of creating a standard one and suggesting that teaching would be improved by using it.
OK, it's possible that I missed something along the way in this thread. If DB is proposing that all teachers use the same syllabus (regardless of who creates it), then I am not in agreement. I actually thought he was simply soliciting feedback for a syllabus that he is making for himself.

[bordertangoman]

Yeah, or maybe a set of concentric circles, with the outer layers labelled "here be controversy" :)

and ye pictures of serpentes and the edge of the worlde

[nucat78]

That's a cute idea. I sort of started making a "Spectrum of Tango" graphic, with one end being Subtlety and the other being Complexity. It could work as a venn diagram too.

Or... have any of you ever seen the Map of Metal? We could do one for tango!



How about concentric circles like Dante's Inferno with a special circle of Hell, er, milonga reserved for BA whorehouses where this all started? ;)

[bordertangoman]

That's a cute idea. I sort of started making a "Spectrum of Tango" graphic, with one end being Subtlety and the other being Complexity. It could work as a venn diagram too.

Or... have any of you ever seen the Map of Metal? We could do one for tango!

http://mapofmetal.com

great! though it doesnt show the Midlands where it all began with Ozzy....

[Dave Bailey]

I am not opposed to training.
You seem to be clearly opposed to structured training, however.

I just don't think art would be better if every student was trained the same way.
I agree.

But I think all students need to have some common ground. Otherwise you always have to teach individual students, individually. Any teaching of any group class has to involve some structure, otherwise it's just some sort of perpetual hippy workshop.

The assumption seems to be that students would benefit from standardized teaching.
I suspect you don't understand what "standardised" means. It doesn't mean "exactly the same way". It means "following a common standard".

Why is it good for all students to learn the same way?
It's not.

Where did I say it was?

[bordertangoman]

How about concentric circles like Dante's Inferno with a special circle of Hell, er, milonga reserved for BA whorehouses where this all started? ;)

fishooks; does nobody take my ideas seriously!!!

[Dave Bailey]

Yes, I think that would be bad. That would turn tango into standard ballroom dancing.
Out of interest, have you even read my syllabus? :confused:

[Dave Bailey]

OK, it's possible that I missed something along the way in this thread. If DB is proposing that all teachers use the same syllabus (regardless of who creates it), then I am not in agreement.
Blimey, there's no way that'd ever happen.

I actually thought he was simply soliciting feedback for a syllabus that he is making for himself.
Yes, precisely.

Once I've done that, I'll make it public (as I do with everything), and if others want to use / copy / modify it, I've no problem with that - I'd hope some people would find it useful. But only an insane fool would attempt to impose that on others.

I'm simply reacting to the "Argh syllabi are the work of Satan" knee-jerk responses I'm reading from some people.

[Zoopsia59]

As I said earlier, Leonardo Da Vinci followed an intense structured training session. That didn't seem to damage his creativity or individuality...

The question is not whether one person who was of the temperment to excel in that structure was creative. The issue is what our world would look like artistically if that had been the ONLY method of art instruction and exposure throughout history. What happened to artists who simply couldn't thrive in that particular structure?

DaVinci was not the "average student". Presumably, there were 100's, if not 1000's of other students who received exactly the same training as DaVinci that we've never heard of and that produced fairly crappy art. There were students who, like college students today, muddled through metalurgy and chemistry just barely "passing" because it was required and never used it again beyond what every artist did to work with their pigments.

Little Leonardo did not become the great DaVinci because of the training method. He became great because of who he was, the talent he had and how he applied all the things he learned because he was fascinated by a large variety of subjects, scientific as well as artistic. The environment of that type of art school was a perfect fit for him.

Another talented artist might have been turned completely off art by the same structure, especially if the establishment in that structure did not see promise in the artist who wouldn't apply himself to the subjects required, but rather preferred to go in a completely new direction. DaVinci perfected the painting trends being developed at the time but didn't really push the artistic boundaries into new and radical territory. He was an innovative scientist, but hardly a trailblazer as a painter.

Clearly though, there are many who would like Tango to be full of DaVinci's and hate the arrival of any artist that changes the boundaries rather than perfects within them. So if that's what you want, then a standardized method with a structure like what DaVinci experienced will be great. But if that's the only training then we would not have the variety of tango styles we have. We'd all be listening to only Golden Age and dancing however they danced then... (as though they only danced one way then :rolleyes:)

As I said, there are those that wish that were the case, but I thought they were in the minority here? Personally, I like Tango because it is NOT like ballroom.

[Dave Bailey]

Little Leonardo did not become the great DaVinci because of the training method. He became great because of who he was, the talent he had and how he applied all the things he learned because he was fascinated by a large variety of subjects, scientific as well as artistic. The environment of that type of art school was a perfect fit for him.
The training enabled Leonardo to become great. Discipline and technique do not inhibit creativity - they enable it. This is as true for learning as for performing.

The "technique is evil" school sound just like those amateur dancers who whinge about having to learn "the hard / boring stuff" of technique, and excuse themselves from that work by saying "I'm a free spirit, it inhibits my creativity" or some such nonsense.

Personally, I like Tango because it is NOT like ballroom.
Blimey, what is it with some of you lot and ballroom dancing? :confused: It's like an obsession or something...

[Zoopsia59]

Yes, precisely.

Your stance has not been very clear. In a few posts you gave the impression you wanted to standardize tango instruction (not just in your own classes, but in a more extensive way al la Ballroom) In other posts you give the impression that you are only proposing that teachers use some sort of syllabus of their own making to avoid having to "wing it" in every class. And everything in between.

I think that's why you are getting the responses you are... it's easy to interpret your post in different ways.

Personally, I don't think anyone needs to "relearn" the dance with a different teacher unless they just got BAD instruction from the previous one. Good instruction is useful no matter what comes after it or how different styles work mechanically.

I don't feel a lack of standardization is the problem in Tango.. the problem is that quite a few teachers just aren't very good at teaching the standards.

[bordertangoman]

I think we should be talking about Michelangelo rather than Da Vinic after all his two thin Christs balanced the fat One.

[Zoopsia59]

The training enabled Leonardo to become great. Discipline and technique do not inhibit creativity - they enable it. This is as true for learning as for performing.

The "technique is evil" school sound just like those amateur dancers who whinge about having to learn "the hard / boring stuff" of technique, and excuse themselves from that work by saying "I'm a free spirit, it inhibits my creativity" or some such nonsense.


Blimey, what is it with some of you lot and ballroom dancing? :confused: It's like an obsession or something...

Simmer down Dave... I can have a preference for Tango because of what makes it different from other dances without being "obsessed" in some way about Ballroom. sheesh. Let's keep this discussion about the topic and not get personal, ok?

As for technique, NOWHERE did I say that learning technique is bad. In fact, it is all I teach. I only teach "steps" as a few basic ones to beginner leaders.

However, I also vastly prefer to teach individuals based on their individual needs, which in my opinion is the best way to improve anyone's fundamental technique. As I recall, you had some objection to teaching individuals based on their individual (non-standardized) needs, but I'll have to leave the reply window to find it. If I am remebering wrong, mea culpa

[sixela]

Well obviously we wouldn't want a standardised dance, I mean then people would be able to communicate and dance easily with each other, and that's clearly a bad thing.
Well, that was the idea around many "standard" dances and it's not necessarily a sound one. Argentine tango places emphasis on leading and following so that you don't need many things that are usually cast in stone in "a syllabus" to dance with strangers.

They wouldn't have to re-learn the dance with every new teacher.I actually love to re-learn the dance or to see a new teacher expose new tidbits of knowledge...

I think most in this thread agree violently. It's good to commit a personal "syllabus" to paper (or bits on a hard disk) and to discuss things based on it, because it's hard to discuss what isn't defined.

And I think we all agree that publishing it won't suddenly make the world ditch all other knowledge and agree, and that there's no need to see Nefarious Plots to Take Over the Universe everywhere.

[Zoopsia59]

Otherwise you always have to teach individual students, individually.

You say that like it's a bad thing... I think it's the BEST way to learn the most important aspects of tango... ie: the technique, discipline and training you accuse me of not respecting.

[Zoopsia59]

fishooks; does nobody take my ideas seriously!!!

No... we don't. pfft. :p

:friend:

[bordertangoman]

No... we don't. pfft. :p

:friend:

j'accuse aussi!

all this elephant talk......:rolleyes:

[Zoopsia59]

j'accuse aussi!

all this elephant talk......:rolleyes:

Uh... You accuse me of being Australian? (and where do the elephants come in?)

I'm a backwoods one-language American, remember? Don't go gettin' all fancy-shmancy on me!

[dchester]

Uh... You accuse me of being Australian? (and where do the elephants come in?)

I'm a backwoods one-language American, remember? Don't go gettin' all fancy-shmancy on me!
Well, your posts do seem to have an accent.

:eek:

[salthepal]

I always have a lesson plan when I start a series, but end up deviating a lot depending on the level of the students. While the idea of a syllabus is great, it can create problems if it's dogmatically adhered to. So now I start every lesson with a general theme in mind, but I will play it by ear depending on how the students are responding. Can't use a cookie-cutter approach (or one-size-fits-all, etc. insert your favorite cliche here)

Edit: What Zoopsia said about individual work!! I always go around the class working with the students individually as they dance. I allow a lot of time (2-3 songs) to practice for every thing I show, and during that time, I work with different students on their individual weaknesses. I have to use a different approach with each student to make sure I'm actually getting to them.

[UKDancer]

Blimey, what is it with some of you lot and ballroom dancing? :confused: It's like an obsession or something...

Hey! That's my line. ;)

There's an interesting paradox here. Tango is supposed to be a dance 'of the people', possessed by, and controlled by no one, but in fact, it could be said to be almost entirely teacher/instructor centered. They can't agree amongst themselves about even the day of the week, usually, but they are nearly all (in my limited experience) larger-than-life characters, whose central message is something vaguely like: 'Watch me (I'm an exhibitionist) and dance like me too. My dance is true tango, and if you want to fit in in this community, you had better believe it.'

We poor, feeble, BR dancers wouldn't be taken in by such nonsense for even thirty seconds. We know what a Fallaway Reverse Turn and Slip Pivot is, and if we don't like the flavour on offer, there is another studio just up the road. That gives us a freedom the average tango dancers just don't have. Tango is not freedom, its servitude.

[Zoopsia59]

Well, your posts do seem to have an accent.

:eek:

I think you are confusing accent and attitude. ;)

[sixela]

We poor, feeble, BR dancers wouldn't be taken in by such nonsense for even thirty seconds.
Neither are "we" (and why all that posing as a victim and pretending to speak for an entire class of people? I don't have a "Feindbild" , thank you, and if I'd have to construct one there are more obvious targets than ballroom dancers.)

I also disagree with your assertion that ballroom dancers are true sceptics and never gullible; I've seen my share of stupid things uttered by ballroom dance teachers and believed by the student masses (the worst evening as far as that was concerned was one in which a ballroom dance teacher was showing "Argentine tango" to a ballroom dance audience. I guess that you could hear the gnashing of my teeth across the room that evening).

If you actually read the posts, few (if any) of them claim that explaining the concepts and technique is unnecessary. Some simply show a (healthy) suspicion of these things cast into stone tablets to be revered, because "we" tend to think that there is not "a single truth". My personal view is that a syllabus is fine (as a tool) as long as it doesn't make preposterous claims to represent Laws of the Universe, and I suspect that's also what David thinks.

Tango is not freedom, its servitude.(Whose servitude? Tango's servitude? freedom's servitude? Sorry, couldn't resist; I''m the guardian of the Balance in the Apostrophe Universe in another forum.)

I see no argument leading up to this rather bold assertion, just a knee-jerk reaction at the mention of ballroom.

Perhaps your claim about tango is true in your neck of the woods if there's only one bad teacher who couldn't explain how to put one foot in front of the other if he tried, but here there are at least 7 couples to choose from, and most do teach technique rather than just ask people to parrot them (I do disagree with all of them on some points, of course).

[UKDancer]

(Whose servitude? Tango's servitude? freedom's servitude? Sorry, couldn't resist; I''m the guardian of the Balance in the Apostrophe Universe in another forum.

I see no argument leading up to this rather bold assertion, just a knee-jerk reaction at the mention of ballroom.

Ha Ha, I agree over the careless (missing) apostrophe, but otherwise you are taking my comment too seriously: it was a joke ...

One point was seriously intended though, and that was that tango does seem to me to be more teacher-centrered than many other styles (but you didn't complain about the missing hyphen). I don't think that is good for the dance style, and I put it down, partly to the lack of any standardisation, even as to fundamentals. Balance might come, in each community, by the presence of a small boy, at each class, prepared to observe (as required) that the 'Emperor has No Clothes'.

[bordertangoman]

Uh... You accuse me of being Australian? (and where do the elephants come in?)

I'm a backwoods one-language American, remember? Don't go gettin' all fancy-shmancy on me!

Elephant Talk lyrics

Talk
it's only talk
Arguments
agreements
advice
answers
Articulate announcements
It's only talk
Talk
it's only talk
Babble
burble
banter
bicker
bicker
bicker
Brouhaha
boulderdash
ballyhoo
It's only talk
Back talk
Talk
talk
talk
it's only talk
Comments
cliches
commentary
controversy
Chatterchit-chatchit-chatchit-chat
Conversation
contradiction
criticism

king-crimson-

[bordertangoman]

Ha Ha, I agree over the careless (missing) apostrophe, but otherwise you are taking my comment too seriously: it was a joke ...

One point was seriously intended though, and that was that tango does seem to me to be more teacher-centrered than many other styles (but you didn't complain about the missing hyphen). I don't think that is good for the dance style, and I put it down, partly to the lack of any standardisation, even as to fundamentals. Balance might come, in each community, by the presence of a small boy, at each class, prepared to observe (as required) that the 'Emperor has No Clothes'.

what does "teacher-centred" mean?

[UKDancer]

what does "teacher-centred" mean?

Many other styles of dance have a very well-established foundation of accepted basic technique and style, and a student can walk into a class or lesson pretty much anywhere in the world (language difficulties aside) and find the same dance being taught with the same technique. No one teacher has any real influence, except in matters of choreography, styling and musicality. The dance exists independently of the teaching body, and one of the marks of the quality of the teacher is the extent to which they remain faithful to the fundamentals of the dance and pass them on.

There is a huge population of social dancers, most of whom have long given up receiving any regular instruction (it shows, but that's a different issue), and they dance, from one year to the next, in clubs, bars, hired halls and all sorts of other venues, in the styles they know (and at their own level) completely indifferent to the relatively small body of teachers, whose influence is, therefore, non-existent.

Tango seems different. There probably is an irreducable minimum of basic technique and style that defines the dance, but it defies definition (mostly because no one will agree - they could, but they won't), so in the absence of any standardisation (and I'm not talking about, less still advocating standardising the way that we dance), tango is whatever the local teachers in any place say it is.

Some teach the 8CB and other figures, which they learned in the car park behind the theatre the night they went to see Tango Argentino, and they've been 'teaching' ever since, others have learned their craft via a more traditional route, and they would say (quite possibly correctly) that the other guy wasn't teaching tango at all. Either way, they seem to dominate the tango scene in a way that teachers don't dominate other scenes. I know that some large cities can support dance clubs where people go mainly to dance, rather than to receive instruction, but there are very few venues (not around me, anyway) where tango dancing is to be found as a social activity, separated from teaching activities. In my nearest big city, I know of no dancing not organised by teachers, and linked directly to their teaching activities. Milongas are few and far between - monthly generally, and if you want to dance even once a week, you will have to spend hours driving to other towns/cities, and if you want to dance every day, you will have to open your own club.

You could go to a class nearly every day, though, and most tango dancers seem to attend more classes than dances, no matter how long they have been dancing. That impression may be wrong, of course, and it may not hold good everywhere.

So my view is that tango (at least locally) is dominated by its teachers. If they stopped arranging milongas, would anyone else step in to the vacuum, or would the tango community just melt back into the wider dance community and carry on dancing salsa, modern jive and whatever else? If you actually enjoy dancing, rather than writing about dancing, or buying dance shoes, or saving up for that trip the BsAs, then tango might not be the obvious choice. But that is another issue, and perhaps just a local one to me here.

[bordertangoman]

thanks, UK Dancer...maybe the teachers are do-ers; they are motivated to generate tango dancing;

I expect Dave (the Oracle) Bailey will provide definitions for you.....

[Dave Bailey]

Your stance has not been very clear.
Then I hope it is clearer now.

In a few posts you gave the impression you wanted to standardize tango instruction (not just in your own classes, but in a more extensive way al la Ballroom)
Argh, can people please shut up about Ballroom? I'm truly sick of hearing people in an Argentine Tango forum endlessly witter on about Ballroom Dancing.

I mean, I really don't get it. To me, ballroom is like Hungary - sounds nice, I vaguely know a little about it, lots of people like it, but I've no interest in visiting the place. But to some people it seems to be, I dunno, North Korea or something.

(I may be extending the analogy a little too much there, sorry...)

I think that's why you are getting the responses you are... it's easy to interpret your post in different ways.
As I've said, several times, I want to create a standard syllabus to help me and my students. If it helps others, great.

What I don't want is to have people endlessly make irrelevant comparisons which display, frankly, a lack of knowledge about learning and teaching theory, and which comments all boil down to "syllabus is bad, mkay?".

I don't feel a lack of standardization is the problem in Tango.. the problem is that quite a few teachers just aren't very good at teaching the standards.
So, hold on, you're agreeing that there are standards now? So standardisation is a good thing? :confused:

And you call my posts unclear?

[Dave Bailey]

Hey! That's my line. ;)
Yeah, and I thought you were going OTT the first time you said it. Now, not so much...

They can't agree amongst themselves about even the day of the week, usually
Tuesday. :p

[Dave Bailey]

I expect Dave (the Oracle) Bailey will provide definitions for you.....
Don't ask me, I'm smaller than life :D

On the actual topic, my FB group's been upgraded, so I now need to work out how it works all over again. There seems to be a "document" function, it may be worth me trying to use that one for the grouped topics, now that the discussion... oh hell, they've removed the discussions from the new format :mad:

Gah. Pen and paper, here I come.

[bordertangoman]

Don't ask me, I'm smaller than life :D

On the actual topic, my FB group's been upgraded, so I now need to work out how it works all over again. There seems to be a "document" function, it may be worth me trying to use that one for the grouped topics, now that the discussion... oh hell, they've removed the discussions from the new format :mad:

Gah. Pen and paper, here I come.

a quill and a garrett is what you need.....

FB= frustration book; i cant find how to put the address of my tango group on the header, even though its part of the description.

More control required; so a heading post stays at the top and doesnt get displaced by later posts.....

[UKDancer]

thanks, UK Dancer...maybe the teachers are do-ers; they are motivated to generate tango dancing;

The alternative, and less charitable, view is that they are generating custom for their tuition. The dancing seems to be an optional extra. There might be more of it, otherwise...

[UKDancer]

Yeah, and I thought you were going OTT the first time you said it. Now, not so much...


Tuesday. :p

Tuesday? That's one view, certainly... ;)

[Peaches]

One point was seriously intended though, and that was that tango does seem to me to be more teacher-centrered than many other styles (but you didn't complain about the missing hyphen). I don't think that is good for the dance style, and I put it down, partly to the lack of any standardisation, even as to fundamentals. Balance might come, in each community, by the presence of a small boy, at each class, prepared to observe (as required) that the 'Emperor has No Clothes'.I disagree. (Shocking, innit?! LOL.) I actually find that there is a lot of standardization, and a lot of agreement...if you know what to listen for. Different teachers have their own biases--some like nuevo, some like milonguero, etc. Different teachers have their own ideas of what is the core of tango. Different teachers have their own ideas of how best to explain concepts. But if you take a step back, and look at all of it, there are the same fundamental concepts running through all of it. It may be presented differently, and talked about differently, by each person...but the fundamentals are there.

And, when you step back and look at the places where there is disagreement you can really see just what is styling or preference and what is the bit that's at the core.

Personally, I love the variation among the teachers. I think it adds to the learning rather than detracts from it.

[bordertangoman]

I disagree. (Shcoking, innit?! LOL.) I actually find that there is a lot of standardization, and a lot of agreement...if you know what to listen for. Different teachers have their own biases--some like nuevo, some like milonguero, etc. Different teachers have their own ideas of what is the core of tango. Different teachers have their own ideas of how best to explain concepts. But if you take a step back, and look at all of it, there are the same fundamental concepts running through all of it. It may be presented differently, and talked about differently, by each person...but the fundamentals are there.

And, when you step back and look at the places where there is disagreement you can really see just what is styling or preference and what is the bit that's at the core.

Personally, I love the variation among the teachers. I think it adds to the learning rather than detracts from it.

SEE! SEE! its an elephant!

[Peaches]

Are you calling me fat?! :-p

But...yes...I agree with you on that point. About a million percent agreement.

[bordertangoman]

The alternative, and less charitable, view is that they are generating custom for their tuition. The dancing seems to be an optional extra. There might be more of it, otherwise...

and it would be dreadful and if I ran a weekly milonga how many would come every week:
about six, if I was lucky; wheras a milonga every six weeks or so pulls in a few more people who are relieved to get away from the ttango police; in fact we're having one next monday, come : expect a mix of trad and alternative music...

[sixela]

One point was seriously intended though, and that was that tango does seem to me to be more teacher-centered than many other styles. I don't think that is good for the dance style,

I don't think it's that "teacher-centred", except for the lack of standardisation which means every teacher is given a lot of leeway into doing things slightly differently (which is actually its strength. There are manuals of style for prose, but fortunately, there aren't any for poetry).

Not unless you stick to only one teacher and never go to milongas, which is something that I don't recommend to anyone. Once you go to milongas, the dance soon becomes partner-centred if you're any good, and that's what should happen for a really social dance.

[UKDancer]

... and if I ran a weekly milonga how many would come every week: about six, if I was lucky;

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week? I don't pretend to have an answer to that, but it puzzles me.

And I know I'm making a very parochial point on an International forum, but several posters on this thread are my (comparatively) near neighbours), but the UK's West Midlands just doesn't seem very fertile ground for tango dancing; even the longest-established teachers cannot sustain a Milonga every month. The most active group seems to be a University one - but they have a captive audience of 10,000 students looking for something to do, besides drink. (And I'm not knocking them, at all). Every other tango dancer in the Region couldn't fill a decent sized venue, whereas I could show you dozens of venues with 100+ happy dancers week-in and week-out. Perhaps it's just here?

[sixela]

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week?

Depends on how many other people organise weekly milongas and how many people dance. In Brussels there are more or less five weekly milongas and that's just enough to attract a crowd; most people go to one or two milongas per week but the total population of dancers is large enough to have people at most milongas, in part because Brussels attracts people from both Flanders, Wallonia, the Southern Netherlands and Lille in Northern France. And some of the weekly milongas can have as little as 16-18 people dancing (which can actually be fine as long as the floor isn't large and 5-6 couples are dancing all the time).

As soon as there are more milongas because of some schism or misunderstanding about dates, you have Really Empty milongas (that's something that happens a lot in Antwerp which has a long tradition of milonga organisers trying to sabotage others and ending up in lose-lose situations and less dancers from out of town; the sabotaging became so bad that I quit organising one myself).

[AndaBien]

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week? I don't pretend to have an answer to that, but it puzzles me.

And I know I'm making a very parochial point on an International forum, but several posters on this thread are my (comparatively) near neighbours), but the UK's West Midlands just doesn't seem very fertile ground for tango dancing; even the longest-established teachers cannot sustain a Milonga every month. The most active group seems to be a University one - but they have a captive audience of 10,000 students looking for something to do, besides drink. (And I'm not knocking them, at all). Every other tango dancer in the Region couldn't fill a decent sized venue, whereas I could show you dozens of venues with 100+ happy dancers week-in and week-out. Perhaps it's just here?

I'm sorry to hear that your tango scene is so meager. In my town there are 5 teaching groups, and they all organize a milonga once a month, sometimes twice. My guess is that most dancers no longer attend classes - they just dance.

[nucat78]

[...] tango is whatever the local teachers in any place say it is. [...] I know that some large cities can support dance clubs where people go mainly to dance, rather than to receive instruction, but there are very few venues (not around me, anyway) where tango dancing is to be found as a social activity, separated from teaching activities. In my nearest big city, I know of no dancing not organised by teachers, and linked directly to their teaching activities. Milongas are few and far between [...] and it may not hold good everywhere. [...] If you actually enjoy dancing, rather than writing about dancing, or buying dance shoes, or saving up for that trip the BsAs, then tango might not be the obvious choice.

Well-written and thought provoking, UK. From my observations in two major metro areas, most of your comments are spot on. I only know of one venue in Chicago that focuses on milongas with classes strictly as an add-on and that is a club, run as a hobby by two lovely people from Argentina. Locals please correct me if I'm wrong. They hold a weekly milonga which is well-attended. Aside from that, everything is so-and-so's class and practica / milonga.

[bordertangoman]

I'm sure you're right - but is this right? Isn't there something wrong when only a handful of people would want to dance even once a week? I don't pretend to have an answer to that, but it puzzles me.

And I know I'm making a very parochial point on an International forum, but several posters on this thread are my (comparatively) near neighbours), but the UK's West Midlands just doesn't seem very fertile ground for tango dancing; even the longest-established teachers cannot sustain a Milonga every month. The most active group seems to be a University one - but they have a captive audience of 10,000 students looking for something to do, besides drink. (And I'm not knocking them, at all). Every other tango dancer in the Region couldn't fill a decent sized venue, whereas I could show you dozens of venues with 100+ happy dancers week-in and week-out. Perhaps it's just here?

tango and tango music in particular is just not cool....

all the cool ethno-ukayans are dancing salsa, kizomba, merengue, and the rest are modern jivers

[UKDancer]

tango and tango music in particular is just not cool....

all the cool ethno-ukayans are dancing salsa, kizomba, merengue, and the rest are modern jivers

We'll all be dancing Bokwa next - you read it here first!

[tangotime]

I'm sorry to hear that your tango scene is so meager. In my town there are 5 teaching groups, and they all organize a milonga once a month, sometimes twice.


.





And you should add that, the " drawing power" is from a population approaching 5 million ! .( larger than some european countries ! )

[AndaBien]

And you should add that, the " drawing power" is from a population approaching 5 million ! .( larger than some european countries ! )

Of course. I was only saying there are other scenarios than the one described by UKDancer. If a place is only big enough to support one teacher, then that teacher will exert a strong influence on the dance. But that would be true for any dance, including ballroom.

There are lots of cities as big as mine, and I suppose they have many dancers who no longer attend classes.

[Zoopsia59]

Argh, can people please shut up about Ballroom? I'm truly sick of hearing people in an Argentine Tango forum endlessly witter on about Ballroom Dancing.

What I don't want is to have people endlessly make irrelevant comparisons which display, frankly, a lack of knowledge about learning and teaching theory

Censor much?

You know there's this filter thingy and the whole "just ignore it" thingy for posts that you feel are wittering, irrelevant, unknowledgable, ignorant, whatever... you don't have to get all worked up about them or respond insultingly to them. You can simply engage the posters that you feel are useful for answering your question or developing your ideas and ignore those of us that are annoying you so much with our use of the "B" word or our pathetic ignorance of all that you know about teaching and learning theory or whatever.

SOOOO sorry to have posted things you personally don't want posted on our forum in trying to discuss the topic you presented.. :rolleyes:

So, hold on, you're agreeing that there are standards now? So standardisation is a good thing? :confused:


Yeah, ok, this time I agree... I got too tricky with wording. I meant fundamentals... does that make it clearer? To me the fundamentals (and I'm talking about technique, not moves) are the "standards" of Tango.

There are moves which are common and considered the primary vocabulary, but that's not what I was referring to when I said that the teaching of the "standards" is often poor or absent. Too often those basic steps get taught without the fundamentals of technique that make them work, which is why I say tango doesn't lack for "standards" (ie: fundamentals), it lacks the consistent teaching of them early on.

Most of the teachers I've had actually agree on the fundamentals of technique if you get them talking about it (allowing some variations based on what style of tango you're dancing, but even then there's typically some agreement within the style or agreement outside the style that it is a style specific technique). That's what I would considered fairly "standardized" already. But for some reason, those things often don't get proper emphasis early enough to make the whole process smoother and faster for many students.

[Zoopsia59]

that happens a lot in Antwerp which has a long tradition of milonga organisers trying to sabotage others and ending up in lose-lose situations and less dancers from out of town; the sabotaging became so bad that I quit organising one myself).

I don't think that's unique to Antwerp... sad to say.

[Zoopsia59]

tango and tango music in particular is just not cool....

all the cool ethno-ukayans are dancing salsa, kizomba, merengue, and the rest are modern jivers

Around here, the tango dancers also have a reputation as being snooty and clique'ish which makes some people who started tango leave it behind for Latin.

My impression is that the Latin dancers here definitely spend more time dancing than taking instruction. The Tango scene here was rather hard to get accepted in if you weren't taking part in the instruction that the majority were doing. I don't know how much that is still true of the tango here, because I know most of the people in it. But I have heard people who stopped tango'ing say that the obvious division of the "A-list" from everyone else was too off-putting. (the A-list wasn't even defined strictly by dancing level either)

[bordertangoman]

Around here, the tango dancers also have a reputation as being snooty and clique'ish which makes some people who started tango leave it behind for Latin.

My impression is that the Latin dancers here definitely spend more time dancing than taking instruction. The Tango scene here was rather hard to get accepted in if you weren't taking part in the instruction that the majority were doing. I don't know how much that is still true of the tango here, because I know most of the people in it. But I have heard people who stopped tango'ing say that the obvious division of the "A-list" from everyone else was too off-putting. (the A-list wasn't even defined strictly by dancing level either)

oh god yes its very true; a lot of cliqueyness around..and lazy hosts who dont make an effort to welcome new guests....but I heard the local salsa teacher is very possessive about her salsera/tango learners going off to my classes, even though the main stay teacher comes to mine; she wont let them advput out my fliers..hypocrisy..i dont give a damn. i only want people who have a mind of their own, and the grapevine is better than hustle...

[UKDancer]

Around here, the tango dancers also have a reputation as being snooty and clique'ish which makes some people who started tango leave it behind for Latin.

My impression is that the Latin dancers here definitely spend more time dancing than taking instruction. The Tango scene here was rather hard to get accepted in if you weren't taking part in the instruction that the majority were doing. I don't know how much that is still true of the tango here, because I know most of the people in it. But I have heard people who stopped tango'ing say that the obvious division of the "A-list" from everyone else was too off-putting. (the A-list wasn't even defined strictly by dancing level either)

This all sounds very familiar, and it is one of the least attractive aspects of the tango scene.

I've been assisting another teacher in her class with a beginner group for a while, now, and none of the students will go to any of the local Milongas. They have picked up the local vibe, and are terrified. Only one of the local venues is fairly laid back, but actually so much so, that I think the organiser may actually have fallen out of an open window. I can't think of any other reason why the DJ, there, appears to be called Shuffle-Play. You can't win...

[Xenophon]

UKDancer, perhaps the teacher-centric thing is just where you're dancing. Here in Wellington NZ, population 180,000 (460,000 in the wider region), we have two regular weekly milongas, a bi-weekly one, a monthly one, three weekly practicas and some kind of special event most months. One more weekly milonga recently stopped when the venue closed - something will soon spring up to take its place.

Classes come and go - the ones associated with practicas tend to have beginners that do some social dancing, the people that go to stand-alone classes are usually beginners that will never dance socially.

Maybe you could start a milonga? Every time I go to the UK, I check to see what's on - it really surprises me just how little social tango there is :confused:

[Peaches]

Around here, the tango dancers also have a reputation as being snooty and clique'ish which makes some people who started tango leave it behind for Latin.

My impression is that the Latin dancers here definitely spend more time dancing than taking instruction. The Tango scene here was rather hard to get accepted in if you weren't taking part in the instruction that the majority were doing. I don't know how much that is still true of the tango here, because I know most of the people in it. But I have heard people who stopped tango'ing say that the obvious division of the "A-list" from everyone else was too off-putting. (the A-list wasn't even defined strictly by dancing level either)
Yup, same here. It sucks. I've drifted away from it of late. I still miss it, but there's A-list, and then a huge chasm...and then everyone else who isn't Someone. Unfortunately, as a follow, it can be hard to get dances with decent leaders without being on the A-list. Especially if you don't show up at 5 milongas a week, which I don't.

By comparison, the WCS scene is ridiculously friendly. Yeah, there are tiers, but people seem happy to dance with beginners and mere mortals. And people actually chat with you! (Oh, the non-tango horror of it all!) I'm sure it has its downfalls, but from where I'm standing now--as an experienced and at least pretty freakin' decent AT dancer, and completely newb WCS *cough* dancer--that's how it seems.

[Subliminal]

Yup, same here. It sucks. I've drifted away from it of late. I still miss it, but there's A-list, and then a huge chasm...and then everyone else who isn't Someone. Unfortunately, as a follow, it can be hard to get dances with decent leaders without being on the A-list. Especially if you don't show up at 5 milongas a week, which I don't.

By comparison, the WCS scene is ridiculously friendly. Yeah, there are tiers, but people seem happy to dance with beginners and mere mortals. And people actually chat with you! (Oh, the non-tango horror of it all!) I'm sure it has its downfalls, but from where I'm standing now--as an experienced and at least pretty freakin' decent AT dancer, and completely newb WCS *cough* dancer--that's how it seems.

You should come back! I'd dance with you. :friend:

I think some milongas in the area are cliquier than others. I think the smaller ones tend to be a bit friendlier actually. In my limited experience.

[Dave Bailey]

Censor much?
I suggest you look up the dictionary definition of "censor". "Asking people to stay on topic on a thread I created" does not quite equal "censor".

you don't have to get all worked up about them or respond insultingly to them.
Thanks.
SOOOO sorry to have posted things you personally don't want posted on our forum in trying to discuss the topic you presented.. :rolleyes:
I was trying to solicit feedback on the actual content of my actual proposed syllabus. Have you even read it?

Yeah, ok, this time I agree... I got too tricky with wording. I meant fundamentals... does that make it clearer? To me the fundamentals (and I'm talking about technique, not moves) are the "standards" of Tango.
Fine, you can call it fundamentals if you want. Clearly, "standard" is yet another red-rag-to-a-bull word for some Tango people. :rolleyes:

But for some reason, those things often don't get proper emphasis early enough to make the whole process smoother and faster for many students.
Yes, if only someone could actually codify these fundamentals, maybe even ask other people for feedback on them?

Blimey, why didn't I think of doing that?

[Dave Bailey]

oh god yes its very true; a lot of cliqueyness around..and lazy hosts who dont make an effort to welcome new guests....
I can vouch for that from personal experience ;)

[bordertangoman]

I suggest you look up the dictionary definition of "censor". "Asking people to stay on topic on a thread I created" does not quite equal "censor".


Thanks.

I was trying to solicit feedback on the actual content of my actual proposed syllabus. Have you even read it?


Fine, you can call it fundamentals if you want. Clearly, "standard" is yet another red-rag-to-a-bull word for some Tango people. :rolleyes:


Yes, if only someone could actually codify these fundamentals, maybe even ask other people for feedback on them?

Blimey, why didn't I think of doing that?

i'M sure i suggested something similar before you started this thread....

my spiral;

"Y quattro ramas de tango":

Steps;
technique;
musicality;
codigos etiquette & floorcraft

[UKDancer]

Steps

Particular ones, or are you talking about walking properly?

[Dave Bailey]

i'M sure i suggested something similar before you started this thread....
Pah, how dare you imply that I'd ever half-inch someone's existing ideas and pass them off as my own work. :p

[bordertangoman]

Pah, how dare you imply that I'd ever half-inch someone's existing ideas and pass them off as my own work. :p


i thought you were a ghost writer...


Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky mate......;)

[bordertangoman]

Particular ones, or are you talking about walking properly?

"walking properly" i would put under technique ie posture, balance; abrazo etc. so whatever falls under the general umbrella of "moves" = steps even if the step is a pivot or a pause...

[Zoopsia59]

"Asking people to stay on topic...

But when does that ever happen? ;)

[Zoopsia59]

never mind

[salthepal]

And people actually chat with you! (Oh, the non-tango horror of it all!)

Here's my way of rationalizing this: Swing dance music all sounds the same to me, so I could take chat breaks and stuff. But at a good milonga, there are all the different orchestras, so I'impatiently waiting for the the next orchestra. I'd rather dance than hang out and chit chat. (Remember, I'm rationalizing here)

[Dave Bailey]

Right, I've now ported all the topics into the group, in 8 sections, as documents (A - H), each covering a specific area.

As before, all comment welcome.