Why Don't WCS Dancers Use Basic Steps?

[rbazsz]

I have now seen my share of advanced WCS dancers -- or at least they look advanced to my novice eyes. The thing that strikes me the most is that almost none of them have the footwork that I am taught at every studio I take lessons at.

Sometimes older guys don't move their feet at all but they seem to know how to lead younger women to do fancy spins and turns and all sorts of arm movements.

The younger guys seem to know WCS arm movements and in addition they do all sorts of energetic footwork movements that look more like what I see at clubs where all the dancers are doing freestyle. Their feet are better than the old guys but I see almost none of them doing anything more than stepping on the beat. 1-2-3-4

One thing I never see anybody do after about half an hour after the group lesson time is step-step-triple-triple. The guys like me that are taught traditional footwork usually leave the open ballroom after awhile because the only music they play is techno-disco where the steps are all on the beat. The men seem to be doing what the women want -- which is to not bother with things like anchors or whatever.

It would be so much easier to do this dance the way "advanced" dancers do it I'm not sure why all of us don't just step on the beat.

So, all of this begs a question: Is there a new kind of WCS that doesn't require anything more than 4 steps on the beat.

If I was into conspiracies I would be tempted to say that WCS studios teach us newbies the traditional footwork so that the dancers out their can identify us as newbies so that they can avoid dancing with us.

[toothlesstiger]

You've got to start somewhere. How far would you get if the teacher told you "just go out there and freestyle with your partner to the music?" You lay the foundation, and when that is totally internalized, and you don't have to count out the beat in your head, then you have something to build on.
The way I dance WCS, unless I am moving on a triple step, the only thing I'm doing is subtle weight changes that are probably not visible to someone that doesn't know what they are looking for. And once you move beyond the basics you very quickly get into figures that are 8 counts long and more, in which case the proportion of triples to steps can vary greatly.

[Dancelf]

So, all of this begs a question: Is there a new kind of WCS that doesn't require anything more than 4 steps on the beat.

Not that I know of. You can make it work, of course, if you know what you are doing, but I've never seen anybody teach it.


I think the truest answer is this: the footwork is not the dance. So if some other movement in your feet better expresses the movement without compromising the relationship between support/center/connection, then you do that.

So you'll see advanced foot work[1], where the leads don't seem to be moving their feet hardly at all, and weird syncopations which disguise the original movement, and they work.

That said, there are those who argue that such deviations from the basic movements are "outside the dance", and should be marked as such in competitive settings.


[1] From a workshop I attended long ago... Q: what's the leader's footwork on that? A: One. (long pause) Six.

[Steve Pastor]

I don't know where to start. So how about here.
The men seem to be doing what the women want -- which is to not bother with things like anchors or whatever.

Want to be popular with the women? Yeah, that's how it's done. It also helps to not worry about things like phrasing or being in time to the music.

The anchor and the slot are two of the basic defining things about West Coast Swing.

The guys like me that are taught traditional footwork usually leave the open ballroom after awhile because the only music they play is techno-disco where the steps are all on the beat.

You know, WCS started as a swing dance, to swing music, and there are subtleties in swing music that are missing from "rock 'n' roll" to a large extent, and hard to find in other kinds of music. I'm going to geuss that it is completely absent from "techno disco".
So, there could be justification for not using triples.

On the other hand I am usually quite unimpressed by what most people consider to be "advanced dancers". I rarely, rarely see the music in what they do. (This is not to say there aren't "real" advanced dancers whom I would recognize for their abilities.)

You're going to have decide for yourself what kind of dancer you are going to be. Me, I know what a good connection is in WCS, including how an anchor works and what it is supposed to feel like. I know what a good "Push Break" feels like, and what it takes to make one, from both sides. I know what a "good" underarm turn feels like. I raely find them.

BTW, when I see someone doing the basics, and doing them well, and in time to the music, etc, I know it is someone I will want to dance with (unless there is something else going on!).

One final thought for now...
Skippy Blair saw what was going on and came up with West Coast Swing 101, partly in a effort to preserve the essence of West Coast Swing, a dance that she's been involved with for nearly 60 years!

[samina]

One thing I never see anybody do after about half an hour after the group lesson time is step-step-triple-triple. The guys like me that are taught traditional footwork usually leave the open ballroom after awhile because the only music they play is techno-disco where the steps are all on the beat. The men seem to be doing what the women want -- which is to not bother with things like anchors or whatever.
not my experience, and there's a good WCS scene in these parts, "advanced" dancers who do not leave out the anchor or synchopation, even tho there's lots of contemporary music played.

fwiw, speaking as a women, i sincerely would not want to dance WCS without an anchor...i'd feel far less relaxed if i was deprived of that place to collect myself, reconnect & resync with my partner if there's been any departure, and get ready to launch into the next bit of movement.

[wooh]

I know a guy that's been dancing for about a million years, apparently was a pro ballroom instructor long long time ago. He barely moves his feet, but he definitely changes weight. Most beginners can't keep up with the weight changes and rhythm without changing weight. Thus, why advanced dancers can get away with not moving their feet.

[bookish]

Disco music, fancy arm movements, no triples, no anchors: could they be dancing hustle?

[rbazsz]

Disco music, fancy arm movements, no triples, no anchors: could they be dancing hustle?

Hmmmm! Come to think of it, I don't know what 4 step Hustle looks like. However, the dancers I was watching were at the WCS Convention in Phoenix. I would laugh your question off except for one thing -- most of the music played after about 11 pm was hip-hop, disco, and techno-dance, which is of course much more suited for the Hustle.

Surely advanced dancers at a WCS convention would know the difference, wouldn't they? :confused:

[nucat78]

We dance 4CH: rock step, slow, slow or rock step, walk, walk, if you prefer.

[samina]

4CH is popular amongst advanced WCS dancers for fast-tempo music, from what I've seen. I can't imagine they'd have a stigma against using it at a WCS convention...when the music comes on, they're no doubt thinking only about how to enjoy the next dance, and 4CH may give a nice mellow ride.

[SD]

...........
If I was into conspiracies I would be tempted to say that WCS studios teach us newbies the traditional footwork so that the dancers out their can identify us as newbies so that they can avoid dancing with us.

1st - There is no conspiracy. Stuck up WCS follows (Mythical creature that doesn't exist you say? Perhaps...) do not need any help in identifying new guys who are insecure about dancing with "better" dancers. They can read it in your eyes when you ask them to dance - if you can get that close to them - they can see it in the way you walk into the room.

I have now seen my share of advanced WCS dancers -- or at least they look advanced to my novice eyes. The thing that strikes me the most is that almost none of them have the footwork that I am taught at every studio I take lessons at.

.......................

I see almost none of them doing anything more than stepping on the beat. 1-2-3-4

.....I never see anybody do ...... step-step-triple-triple. ....................

So, all of this begs a question: Is there a new kind of WCS that doesn't require anything more than 4 steps on the beat.


I would have to say yes, there is a sort of new kind of generalized WCS that is danced to all sorts of music that is not swing, has no triples in the rhythm, and hence you see few if any triples in the guys footwork. Also many of the guys are extremely lazy and dance pretty much the same way to any music.

Disco music, fancy arm movements, no triples, no anchors: could they be dancing hustle?

In the New England scene I see almost no one dancing hustle socially at wcs events outside of myself. Yes there are a few who do but they are almost the exception that proves the rule. Most people seem very happy dancing wcs patterns to music that does not swing.


......The men seem to be doing what the women want -- which is to not bother with things like anchors or whatever.

If you talk to the women at any social dance event, wcs especially, but others are similar, you will hear the same thing over and over - most guys are not doing what the women want. The women come and dance with a whole bunch of guys but most of them they sort of put up with while waiting to get a dance with one of the few guys who are either:

a) "really good - Soooo amaaaazing! He can make me do all sorts of things I didn't know I could do!" ie. a pro,
or,
b) "really fun to dance with! I just have the best time dancing with him!"

The first quality comes from literally years or - more often - decades of experience. The second quality - "really fun to dance with" actually requires surprisingly little dance technique - usually just enough to not hurt anyone - but it does require tremendous skill in communicating to a woman how much you appreciate dancing with her and how much fun YOU are having dancing with her, WITHOUT APPEARING TO WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT ANYTHING. Guys who can do this well are pretty rare, and are mostly naturally good at it and can't explain what it is that they do. A few of us do learn, eventually...

-SD

[Bailamosdance]

This is an excellent overview - and it applies to almost any dance situation in the social scene. LOL asbout the conspiracy theory, too - newbies always underestimate what it takes to be good...

[DerekWeb]

Many westie dancers and teachers are also great hustle dancers. On the East coast, this is strictly 3 count hustle. 4 count? - they will laugh you out of the room.

[Dancelf]

Stuck up WCS follows (Mythical creature that doesn't exist you say? Perhaps...) do not need any help in identifying new guys who are insecure about dancing with "better" dancers. They can read it in your eyes when you ask them to dance - if you can get that close to them - they can see it in the way you walk into the room.


They also compare notes.

[rbazsz]

Some of the posters to this thread have convinced me that there may be a growing trend to use 4 step Hustle footwork for WCS. If so, could somebody point me to some videos of this WCS variation?

[Peaches]

Um...you mean they're dancing 4 count hustle? What do you mean by using "4 step Hustle footwork for WCS"?

The music for them is pretty interchangeable--what you can dance WCS to you can generally dance hustle to, etc. Where I go WCS dancing, there is definitely a mix of people doing both--well, 3-count Hustle (usually slotted) and WCS. That could be what your seeing, or it could just be that they're using extended syncopations and variations that you haven't learned about yet, or it could be that there is a whole lot more going on that what you are able to see, or it could be that the men are advanced enough that they are able to cut out extraneous movements and focus on other things. Most likely, it's a combination of all of them.

[samina]

Many westie dancers and teachers are also great hustle dancers. On the East coast, this is strictly 3 count hustle. 4 count? - they will laugh you out of the room.
not true if it's a very fast-tempo song in a club...great technique for that.

but yah, you're spot-on generally speaking. :)

[jennyisdancing]

As noted above, the footwork is not the dance. WCS is an improvisational dance that comes out of general concepts, some of those being: anchor, slot, leverage, compression, and a knowledge of 6- and 8- count basic patterns which have numerous variations and options, and most of which allow freedom of styling and improvisation.

It's like asking how a rock guitarist or jazz piano player can seemingly make stuff up instead of just playing the notes that are listed on the sheet music. It's a skill that comes from knowing the foundation well enough to know how to play with it.

All that said, there are also some dancers who have no rhythm, don't know their basics, or are lazy and sloppy in their footwork, but if you're talking about truly advanced, highly skilled dancers, that hopefully doesn't apply here.

[Zhena]

As noted above, the footwork is not the dance. WCS is an improvisational dance that comes out of general concepts, some of those being: anchor, slot, leverage, compression, and a knowledge of 6- and 8- count basic patterns which have numerous variations and options, and most of which allow freedom of styling and improvisation.



Hijack alert ....

And yet I have attended WCS workshops where they taught a "travelling anchor" (??!!??) and a very long, wide slot that didn't seem like a slot at all. Apparently the motivation is the ability to do very large movements that catch the attention of judges. Which raises the question ... what is the dividing line between WCS and undifferentiated "swing" with a lot more options? I suppose you can argue that whatever wins a major WCS competition is, by definition, WCS. But I'm not a fan of this new-fangled stuff, and probably won't be unless I get so much better at anchor-slot WCS that I'm bored with it (which I don't forsee in my lifetime). I will probably not take workshops from those teachers again.

End (minor) hijack ...

[Dancelf]

And yet I have attended WCS workshops where they taught a "travelling anchor" (??!!??) and a very long, wide slot that didn't seem like a slot at all. Apparently the motivation is the ability to do very large movements that catch the attention of judges. Which raises the question ... what is the dividing line between WCS and undifferentiated "swing" with a lot more options? I suppose you can argue that whatever wins a major WCS competition is, by definition, WCS.

I'm told that a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, social dancing was the inspiration for competitive dance, rather than the other way around. Grandpa, tell me 'bout the good old days.

There are still some holdouts who maintain that west coast swing is defined by those elements which (as you have noted) have been discarded. Catch Mario Robau Jr at the right time, and he'll give you a very thorough run down.

In my opinion, the answer that's winning right now is something close to "it's still west coast if the dancers movements are those that we use when the westie constraints are in force." Restating that - the dance isn't the rules, but the way that we move when we are obeying the rules. So if we are moving that way, we're still dancing wcs, even when we aren't following the rules any more.

It's not a great answer, but it's the closest that matches what I see with my eyes: undisciplined westie dancers don't move like lindy hoppers / east coast swing dancers / hustle dancers. They don't even move like westies trying to dance lindy. Westies trying to dance hustle don't look like they are dancing westie badly (they look like they are dancing hustle badly).

[Zhena]

There are still some holdouts who maintain that west coast swing is defined by those elements which (as you have noted) have been discarded.


My main WCS teacher is one of those holdouts who acknowledges (but does not teach) the new stuff. In our classes and lessons we learn how to work within the traditional constraints. Many of the leaders who show up at the socials I attend still use the traditional form. I'm pretty happy with the utility of what I'm learning. I don't really compete, so I don't have any reason to take up what is essentially (to me) another dance genre (i.e., competitive WCS). I've just made a mental note not to take workshops from the people I've seen teaching differently. I see no reason at this point to further befuddle my already confused brain!

[jennyisdancing]

My main WCS teacher is one of those holdouts who acknowledges (but does not teach) the new stuff. In our classes and lessons we learn how to work within the traditional constraints. Many of the leaders who show up at the socials I attend still use the traditional form. I'm pretty happy with the utility of what I'm learning. I don't really compete, so I don't have any reason to take up what is essentially (to me) another dance genre (i.e., competitive WCS). I've just made a mental note not to take workshops from the people I've seen teaching differently. I see no reason at this point to further befuddle my already confused brain!

I think most pros know, appreciate and use the basic WCS concepts and techniques and can teach them. And my understanding is that a comp does judge you very much on basic technique. That is, if you're doing fancy moves without showing that you know the foundation, you wouldn't get judged well.

I think it's more an issue of the advanced amateurs who enjoy experimenting and/or showing off on the social floor. It can be fun, but hogging the floor/ignoring floorcraft and dancing way above your partner's ability to handle it, is never okay IMO.

[JustAnotherDancer]

My main WCS teacher is one of those holdouts who acknowledges (but does not teach) the new stuff. In our classes and lessons we learn how to work within the traditional constraints. Many of the leaders who show up at the socials I attend still use the traditional form. I'm pretty happy with the utility of what I'm learning.
Every time I see that WCS instructor dance, I am struck by her precision and clean lines- you can see the elements of the dance, and it isn't boring. Some call it old-fashioned. If you ask her to help with interpreting some new fashion pattern (for successful survival on the social dance floor :)), however, she can definitely do it.

Some of the dancers who are dropping the basic footwork elements (triples) are not maintaining the matching body movement or timing. They will do things like move with flat feet, get the body to a position too early, just don't use their bodies, etc. and then there is nowhere left for them to go to continue the lead/movement- and then there is plenty of room for confusion.

If you watch the pros dance, even if triples are frequently dropped, they have active movement from the upper body all the way down to their feet. They still really use their feet.

This is slightly off-topic, but it is amusing to hear comments from young contemporary WCS dancers when they watch video of WCS from the 80s/90s. "What dance is THAT?!". WCS. "But... but...". Yeah, it is.

But, what do I know... I'm on the low end of the dance totem pole :)

[Dancelf]

My main WCS teacher is one of those holdouts who acknowledges (but does not teach) the new stuff.

Is that Kelly? Not important, I just like keeping the players straight.

I've just made a mental note not to take workshops from the people I've seen teaching differently. I see no reason at this point to further befuddle my already confused brain!

I'll take a moment to gently discourage that attitude - there's no particular advantage in learning only one way to dance. With experience, you learn to pick off the bits that are useful to you, and dismiss the rest. Stick a "yet" in there somewhere, and you're fine.

[Steve Pastor]

Is that Kelly? Not important
but it did bring to mind this article http://www.kellydance.com/pages/westcoastswing.html


I'm told that a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, social dancing was the inspiration for competitive dance, rather than the other way around.

Wonder if you'd like to expand on this?
This is what I've found in my researching.

In LA there is quite the history of competition for jitterbug and swing. I found one account of the Dean Collins "entering" a dance contest, along with a chorus line dancer from the same club. The reporter noted it as a setup to entertain the customers. Wonder how the other contestants would have felt about it?

Peter Loggings has detailed the frequent contests held in the LA ballrooms, where the various dance factions (shag? balboa, Dean Collins/New Yorker style) competed.

Our own Black Sheep / Joe Lanza detailed some of the contests he entered circa 1950.

There were "jitterbug" and rock 'n roll dance contests in the 50s in LA. (I think I saw some for the early 60s, too, but don't quote me on that.)
And of course there were Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, who were always looking for new things to put in their dance as professional entertainers, but much earlier and mostly in a different part of the country.

Since first learning in the mid 90s, and rebooting with Skippy Blair, I AM curious about what is being taught now a days. Sampled that yesterday and, um...

I'm with Zhena on the basics, but then we aren't "Westies", we just dance West Coast Swing along with all the other CW dances.



(( Would love to discuss this one with Kelly.
"After all, at one time the Lindy community felt that some dancers were dancing a style so far from Lindy that those dancers should have their own dance, and West Coast Swing was born."
Few dancers called what they did "Lindy Hop" in those days. It seems to have been a term used primarily in NYC/Harlem. Peter Logging has identiifed several "facitons" of swing dancers in Los Angeles. ))

[Zhena]

Every time I see that WCS instructor dance, I am struck by her precision and clean lines- you can see the elements of the dance, and it isn't boring. Some call it old-fashioned. If you ask her to help with interpreting some new fashion pattern (for successful survival on the social dance floor :)), however, she can definitely do it.



Oooh ... I had forgotten you also go to her dances. Will you be there tomorrow? If you've figured out who we are, come and say hello. (DH is 6'3" and has a grey beard, so he's easy to spot.)

[Zhena]

Is that Kelly? Not important, I just like keeping the players straight..

No


I'll take a moment to gently discourage that attitude - there's no particular advantage in learning only one way to dance. With experience, you learn to pick off the bits that are useful to you, and dismiss the rest. Stick a "yet" in there somewhere, and you're fine.

Well, considering that, in addition to plain vanilla WCS I also do ballroom, folk, and Hungarian, with occasional forays into vintage, I think I can be excused for not learning something that I'm not attracted to ... it's hard enough to find time and the mental capacity for the things I like ...

[rbazsz]

In my opinion, the answer that's winning right now is something close to "it's still west coast if the dancers movements are those that we use when the westie constraints are in force." Restating that - the dance isn't the rules, but the way that we move when we are obeying the rules. So if we are moving that way, we're still dancing wcs, even when we aren't following the rules any more.

It's not a great answer, but it's the closest that matches what I see with my eyes: undisciplined westie dancers don't move like lindy hoppers / east coast swing dancers / hustle dancers. They don't even move like westies trying to dance lindy. Westies trying to dance hustle don't look like they are dancing westie badly (they look like they are dancing hustle badly).

From my observations what you wrote is spot on. Perhaps WCS isn't disciplined by it's very nature. The emphasis is on style instead of footwork for the men. However it doesn't seem that ladies have the luxury of getting sloppy.

[kayak]

Anchoring isn't the footwork, but the creation of leverage. So whether a lady uses a rounded anchor or the man uses "advanced footwork" and just steps in at the right moment, creating leverage defines the end of a pattern.

I found the green zone, yellow zone, red zone concept worked great for me visualizing the moves once I had the basics in muscle memory. The green zone is the guy stepping back and leading the lady forward. The yellow is what is done in the middle of the pattern and the red is the anchoring movement.

In its simplest format, the zones each get two beats. One is the down beat and one is an upbeat. A sugar push/push break is the example. Each zone can be extended. So a whip is to basic green and red zones with an extended yellow zone.

Yea, it does seem like some leaders like to extend that yellow zone for about 120 beats, but there is also supposed to be those red zone anchor points and green zone starting points even if it looks like a continuous yellow zone.

Feel color blind yet :D

[Steve Pastor]

Perhaps WCS isn't disciplined by it's very nature. The emphasis is on style instead of footwork for the men.

"August 2008 - The past few years have seemed a little strange to those of us who have been involved in West Coast Swing since ther early 1950's. The confusion seems to be with new dancers who, for some reason, seem to believe that there is no standard curriculum for West Coast Swing."

"they frequently run into people who have studied West Coast Swing - who honestly believe that West Coast is a free spirited dance with no standard patterns. Nothing would be farther from the truth."

excerpts from "Why 22 patterns for Classic West Coast Swing" by Skippy Blair

[jennyisdancing]

"August 2008 - The past few years have seemed a little strange to those of us who have been involved in West Coast Swing since ther early 1950's. The confusion seems to be with new dancers who, for some reason, seem to believe that there is no standard curriculum for West Coast Swing."

"they frequently run into people who have studied West Coast Swing - who honestly believe that West Coast is a free spirited dance with no standard patterns. Nothing would be farther from the truth."

excerpts from "Why 22 patterns for Classic West Coast Swing" by Skippy Blair

Where are these people that Skippy is referring to, and who is teaching them that WCS has no standard patterns? I don't doubt her, she's an authority on this...just saying I haven't met any of them. I have met people who were taught poorly, or ignore their teachers and choose to dance without structure - but not people who literally believe there are no standards to follow. Just curious if anyone here has encountered it.

[Dancelf]

Where are these people that Skippy is referring to, and who is teaching them that WCS has no standard patterns? I don't doubt her, she's an authority on this...just saying I haven't met any of them. I have met people who were taught poorly, or ignore their teachers and choose to dance without structure - but not people who literally believe there are no standards to follow. Just curious if anyone here has encountered it.

My guess would be that a few different ideas are getting confused here, including the notion that west coast swing has no standard syllabus. I.e. in the swing world, there's no "Bronze" division in competition....

[jennyisdancing]

My guess would be that a few different ideas are getting confused here, including the notion that west coast swing has no standard syllabus. I.e. in the swing world, there's no "Bronze" division in competition....

True...there is no syllabus of the kind typically used in ballroom, in the sense of a formal list. It's a little more informal. But there certainly are basics steps and techniques to learn. You could expect any WCS pro to teach sugar push, side pass, whip, etc. to beginners. If you never learn those steps, you'll have a heck of a time leading or following anything on the social floor, and you'll never win a competition.

[Steve Pastor]

Here's the comment, again, that sent me looking for the material from Skippy.

Perhaps WCS isn't disciplined by it's very nature. The emphasis is on style instead of footwork for the men.

Part of that intro to 22 patterns was that Jordan and Tatiana had returned from Europe and talked about how the dance was thought of there.


This reminded me of something else, written by Richard Powers. full text here http://socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/westcoast.htm

*** begin Powers quote

The spirit and attitude of West Coast Swing

West Coast Swing is much more than a style and syllabus of figures. It embodies the West Coast attitude about dance, a mindset of freedom, ease, flexibility and infinite possibilities.


I once heard this theory:

East Coast dancers focus on definitions and rules, categorizing and standardizing the categorization. Does it belong in this box or that box? Which style is correct? So there is understandably an emphasis on technique, more specifically on defining and enforcing one correct technique.
West Coast dancers focus more on the way dance feels, the subjective experience of dancing. How does it impact us? How can we enhance the experience? How can we enhance the experience for our partners? West Coast thinking therefore embraces more creativity and flexibility, to adapt to partners who are different from our own style.
Is this theory true? In many cases yes, but not always. There are too many exceptions – many rule-based dancers living on the West Coast and many adaptive, experienced-based dancers living on the East Coast, like the history of the Savoy Ballroom in Harlem for example. And the dancers between the coasts are left out!

The geographical division is an oversimplification. So I prefer to think of it as lateral thinking vs. vertical thinking, which can happen anywhere.
.
.
.
Don't let WCS become another stodgy rule-based dance, buried in layers of pedantic details. Keep the original spirit alive!

****end Powers quote


Now, I can certainly testify to the fact that Skippy has a great amount of detail to give you if you want it.
But she also believes in making the dance your own, and having your own style.

Skipping the part about learning basics, and the fact that those basic exist, is, I think, what she doen't want to see happen.

And you know, the (maybe) "fact" that "Western Swing" and then West Coast Swing were creations of "the studio system", has a lot of credence with me based on everything I'm finding in libraries and seeing on film, unless you think that any swing danced on the West Coast was "West Coast Swing".

Powers is another one I would like to talk to about some of his writing on WCS. I would have to disagree with a substantial portion of what he has written, in fact.

[Steve Pastor]

there is no syllabus of the kind typically used in ballroom, in the sense of a formal list. It's a little more informal.

Just thought I'd mention that there is a little known "Dance Manual" that Laure Haile authored circa 1950s that has Bronze, Silver, and Gold Star levels under the Arthur Murray umbrella. There the dance was called "Western Swing", but much of that material is recognizable as the same patterns currently used in West Coast basics.

It's one of, if not THE, first written descriptions of what we now call "West Coast Swing". Even teacher trainees like Skippy were not shown step descriptions.

[nucat78]

True...there is no syllabus of the kind typically used in ballroom, in the sense of a formal list.

DVIDA American Style Rhythm Manual (Bronze), WCS:


Underarm turn
Left side pass
Sugar push
Right side pass
Tuck-in from LSP
Tuck-in from RSP
Half whip and throw out
Basic whip
Whip with inside turn
Whip with outside turn
Whip with check
UAT with leader's loop to RSP
Sugar push point
Lock whip
Continuous whip


Just sayin'... I have no opinion on the "correctness" or "incorrectness" of said syllabus.

[yagottabelieve]

Here's the comment, again, that sent me looking for the material from Skippy.



Part of that intro to 22 patterns was that Jordan and Tatiana had returned from Europe and talked about how the dance was thought of there.

(...)



I looked for the discussion you mentioned online, but couldn't find it. Is it online somewhere? I'm interested in what people from Europe, particularly France, think about WCS. I visited France in the summer of 2010 with the goal of finding some people to dance with (not just WCS, necessarily), and to make some new friends. When I met up with some of the folks out there who dance WCS, the most common question I got from them was how to musically interpret songs. I tried to give some examples (in English mostly, and what little French I knew at the time) using music terminology, but I was not sure if they understood me. Most of the popular music I heard while I was there, and on streaming iTunes audio stations that come from there, is in English, so they at least have some material to work with.

Now, having a couple of comps under my belt, having taken some of Myles and Tessa's workshops, and asking a (non-dancer but choral singer) friend from France how some musical concepts are expressed in French, I have a pretty good idea of how to explain certain things about musical interpretation. As I thought, the best way to do it is through music terminology, which is generally universal. Granted, some people don't have (formal) music backgrounds, but I think using words like downbeat and upbeat, for example, when talking about rolling count, can be effectively illustrated through examples which can be clarified through music notation. This may not be ideally suited for a one-hour presentation at a convention, however.

I actually enjoyed reading Skippy Blair's articles, and hope to meet her some day. I noticed that she uses the term Hip Hop to describe certain types of music and says it doesn't encourage rolling count. I think I know which types of Hip Hop she is talking about, and would agree, to some extent. But I think some examples would be helpful. The song "Super Bass" by Nicki Minaj comes to mind. Compare it with a song like "Everybody Backstreet's Back" by the Backstreet Boys. The groove is an obvious, definite part of the song, so much so that it moves me! :-)

[Steve Pastor]

I looked for the discussion you mentioned online, but couldn't find it. Is it online somewhere?

Apparently not! It was, at one time - August 2008 - part of the introduction to Why 22 patterns for classic West Coast Swing. It seems to have been left out of newer edits. Although I haven't seen a lot of revision in what Skippy sees as good fundamentals, her approach to how to best teach things is always open to adopting what seems to work best.
It said nothing more specific than "Europe". But if you could find out where Jordan & Tatiana taught in the middle of last decade, you might be able to figure it out.

[Steve Pastor]

the best way to do it is through music terminology, which is generally universal

Speaking of "universal"... I remember how intrigued I was by the clarity of Skippy's discussion of how movement and music are related (or could / should be!) in the first class I took from her.
Rather than using terms musicians use, you might consider the "Universal System" which Skippy has been teaching for lo, these 50 years or so. She sometimes calls it sheet music for dancers.

Your comments on rolling count and hip hop sent me here - http://www.swingdancecouncil.com/library/rolling-count.htm
And you've proabably seen this...

To date, every dance we have tested is performed at a higher level when using "Rolling Count" - No exceptions. Could there BE an exception? Of course! There usually is an exception - if not today - tomorrow. Well, tomorrow is here.
After a gradual development of "Hip Hop" style West Coast Swing - one crucial discovery is the fact that "Straight Count" fits this dance very well.
A staccato "3&4" looks and feels comfortable - and compatible - with the music. The interesting part is that dancers who are accustomed to a rolling count - still use that count - because the music "allows" it. However, Hip Hop music does not encourage Rolling Count. The difference is that upper level dancers are able to move the upper body with a rolling count and still dance straight count with the feet.


So, maybe your examples are exceptions to exceptions?

Seriously, though, I haven't checked into a definition of hip hop. It's likely to have many variations in style, just like most genres of music.
And, as much time as I've put into this hobby, I stilll struggle at times to understand things, and have to go back to basic definitions again and again.

[yagottabelieve]

Apparently not! It was, at one time - August 2008 - part of the introduction to Why 22 patterns for classic West Coast Swing. It seems to have been left out of newer edits. Although I haven't seen a lot of revision in what Skippy sees as good fundamentals, her approach to how to best teach things is always open to adopting what seems to work best.
It said nothing more specific than "Europe". But if you could find out where Jordan & Tatiana taught in the middle of last decade, you might be able to figure it out.

Are you on Facebook? If so, have you seen the recent discussion on Mario Robau's wall asking for comparisons between WCS, Modern Jive, and Zouk? Possibly, Jordan and Tatiana saw a lot of Modern Jive-infuenced and Zouk-influenced WCS in Europe. I did, during my last trip to France in the summer of 2010. I also have seen it in some YouTube videos of comps in France.

[Steve Pastor]

Yup, joined so I could share pictures of my second attempt to climb Mt Kilimanjaro.
If Mario ever answers that question, maybe you could let us know?
Right now I'm digging into this scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BUSsckFIjo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BUSsckFIjo)
The dancers are Earl Barton and Lisa Gaye, neither of whom were from the first generation of Hollywood swing dancers.
Barton was "choreographer" for "Don't Knock the Rock". Joe Lanza was one of his dancers. (See BlackSheep's post(s) for Joe's take on Barton. Joe wrote that barton didn't choreograph the swing scenes.) Barton uses much the same moves in dancing to Haley's "Hook, Line and Sinker" in the film. (Can't find that one on line.)

Starting in the later half of 1954 Bill Haley and His Comets had a song (or four!) in the top 50 through the first part of 1956. There first "hit" was in 1953, "Crazy, Man, Crazy" peaking at #12 on the Billboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_(magazine)) Juke Box chart for the week ending June 20, 1953, and #11 for two weeks on the Cash Box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_Box) chart beginning for the week of June 13. It is also believed to be the first rock and roll recording to be played on national television in the US.

Oh, would you say they are using Basic Steps (in 1956!) ?

[yagottabelieve]

Several people posted responses to Mario Robau's questions. Some observations were that Modern Jive is less slotted, giving the dancers more freedom to move about the dance floor (not unlike NC2S); dancers move in opposition on the '1' count (and in general); weight changes occur on every beat (in the basic step).

[kayak]

How does this slot compare with the hourglass slot being used by Nick jay and Joanna Mellina?

[rbazsz]

I watched a J&J contest in Phoenix recently and was surprised how few of the male contestants did even a single triple step. That includes newcomer up to advanced levels. Nowadays judges don't seem to care as long as the timing is correct.

[Artemia]

@rbazsz: That's not exactly true... while there are MANY dancers who don't triple like they should, it isn't ignored by the judges. I have had some interesting conversations with judges in regards to triples, and do have a few friends who are (by the judges' own admission) stuck where they are because they don't triple in comps. (Or at all, lol.) You don't need to triple to end every pattern, anchors are about a distribution of weight and connection, but if you just walk through your dance you -are- going to get docked for it.

[rbazsz]

@rbazsz: That's not exactly true... while there are MANY dancers who don't triple like they should, it isn't ignored by the judges. I have had some interesting conversations with judges in regards to triples, and do have a few friends who are (by the judges' own admission) stuck where they are because they don't triple in comps. (Or at all, lol.) You don't need to triple to end every pattern, anchors are about a distribution of weight and connection, but if you just walk through your dance you -are- going to get docked for it.

In our local contests it looks to me like none of the divisions require men to triple step -- not even newcomers. Therefore you rarely see men do it. For the most part the men just stand flat footed and lead the ladies to do things. Some of the men have a sense of rhythm and some seem to be totally off (but at least their planted feet don't give it away).

Women are a different story because most of them seem to do proper footwork (at least in the competitions). I suspect it would be difficult for ladies to avoid proper footwork because they wouldn't be able to go up and down the slot, turn etc.

Socially, very few of the men around here have any footwork at all. Last night I saw a couple that are arguably very advanced and stylish but their footwork was completely off to non-existent.

Perhaps the sloppiness in footwork is being encouraged by the trendy music young dancers seem to prefer now -- it's sort of a blend of mellow acoustic rock and folk. Their other favorite style seems to be mono-rhythmic techno-dance. The music has no swing in it, and even Skippy Blair warned that dancing to music like that can make dancers get sloppy.

I don't understand the judges but it does seem that they are encouraging a new kind of WCS that doesn't require much of the men in terms of footwork.

[Larinda McRaven]

In our local contests it looks to me like...
I don't understand the judges but

these two lines pretty much tell all...

[Artemia]

There's definitely a difference between local social dancing and international competitions. Even local competitions can be spun differently depending on the training of the judges. (And I don't mean dance training, training to be a judge is totally different though often you'll see good dancers presume they can also be good judges... NOT true, I've been forced to be a judge before and I would never do it again without going through extensive training.)

I just watched some of my recent videos from competitions and picked out the top 5 leaders (from the finals placement) in each one to watch their footwork. (Talking about "Advanced" level comps, here.) All of them are doing defined triples except in places where stationary or singular steps are called for in a lyrical/musical sense. There is at least one lead on the floor in one of the videos who did not triple and I know for a fact that he didn't final.

I'm not making my statements with any sort of conjecture, but rather actual discussion with judges. Basic tenets of judging: timing, technique, teamwork. Technique: use proper footwork as your basic (in WCS one must always know the rules in order to break them) but you can go outside of the box in order to embellish. A dance with a few triples taken out for a reason is ok. A dance with no triples suggests you (the competitor) are not taking into account your basic technique and can easily lead to a miss out of finals. [There's more to technique than triples, just simplifying for the topic at hand.]

That is of course not to say that there are judges out there who just look for flash and trash rather than judge by the Ts, however the majority of the WCS world still abides by the basic rules, even if the dance is evolving to incorporate what might be considered a bit more "contemporary creativity" than it used to.

There is HUGE HUGE HUGE drama going on right now in the swing community because of the evolution of WCS. I have kept away from it so I will not further go into it, but Mario Robau will very willingly friend you back if you send him a Facebook friend request, his Facebook apparently is a very good sumup of everything going on as well as additional discussion.

[pygmalion]

often you'll see good dancers presume they can also be good judges... NOT true, I've been forced to be a judge before and I would never do it again without going through extensive training.)



Really intriguing post, Artemia. I would love to hear more about your experience of judging. This may not be the right thread, but ... I would love to hear.

And thanks for the heads up about the WCS controversy, whatever it may be. I rarely if ever do facebook, but I can google my tushy off. :wink:

Thanks! :-D

[jennyisdancing]

Really intriguing post, Artemia. I would love to hear more about your experience of judging. This may not be the right thread, but ... I would love to hear.

And thanks for the heads up about the WCS controversy, whatever it may be. I rarely if ever do facebook, but I can google my tushy off. :wink:

Thanks! :-D

This (http://lizamayliza.com/2011/11/13/tampa-2011-update-3/) would help explain some background.

I am no expert on WCS judging so I won't wade into that...but rbazsz mentioned social-level dancing (perhaps beginner level?) not the top pros - so as far as that is concerned, it wouldn't be surprising to see some challenges with getting the footwork right.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, jenny. :-D

[rbazsz]

This (http://lizamayliza.com/2011/11/13/tampa-2011-update-3/) would help explain some background.

I am no expert on WCS judging so I won't wade into that...but rbazsz mentioned social-level dancing (perhaps beginner level?) not the top pros - so as far as that is concerned, it wouldn't be surprising to see some challenges with getting the footwork right.

I'm certainly not talking top pros, although I see scant evidence that most of them use traditional WCS footwork. I'm referring more to amateur dancers from newcomer to advanced. It seems to me that the higher the skill level the less likely they are to use WCS footwork. It's passe.

[Artemia]

It's less that it's passe and more that once you learn the basics of a dance, the connection and the lead/follow... you can make the conscious choice to dance in a way that doesn't harm the dance itself while still making it enjoyable. I probably said this in my last post, but I use it a lot: "You need to know the rules in order to be able to break them."

If we get into the social aspect of the dance, at 5 am in the morning (after dancing since midnight, and competing all day) it's the last thing on your mind to make sure you do proper triples when you're dancing. As long as you're dancing right, footwork is not the connection between lead and follow.

I posted a video on another thread that was a very relevant commentary by Arjay and Melina:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pxs7IxkTQY

We dance what FEELS GOOD. So, when you watch advanced lead/follow couples, you are seeing what has come from training, working hard, KNOWING the basics, but choosing to shape your technique in a different fashion. Yes, sometimes people can get away with more flash and trash than straight up technique in comps, but it depends on who is judging. Most of the judges you encounter may be names you've never heard before, people who have been in the business of swing for 10, 20 years or more. They might have other jobs but they have been there to watch the dance evolve for longer than most of us have even known about partner dancing. They know their technique, and they expect it through the dance. But they are also knowledgeable at how dancers can shift the footwork and still stay true to WCS.

Back to the 'know the rules to break them'... you'd be surprised that how much of the lack of triples and other embellishments are actually proper technique, even taught in workshops! To an untrained or newer eye it might appear that a dancer is just being lazy, or off time, when they are actually being extremely musical. Dance with a leader (or follower) who competes at the advanced level, watch the video of your dance afterwards. How did it feel? Was that any different from how it ended up looking? Did you notice the footwork without watching their feet, or did you experience the fundamentals of West Coast Swing, the positive and negative connection, the proper flow from A to B? Did you have FUN!? If no, then there's a problem... but if so, was the footwork really the most important thing you got out of the dance?

WCS isn't a ballroom dance. There are very few absolutes, and there is no 'I step here, you step there or else we march back to the corner and start the entire wall over again.' If you think more about someone else's footwork than your own enjoyment you need to find a new hobby. Yeah there's drama going on in the community right now about 'traditional' WCS, but like Benji said in his 1st place interview at the Open... "IT'S ALL SWING."

[pygmalion]

Wow! What an awesome post, Artemia! :notworth:

[rbazsz]

Conversation during a group WCS class I attended:

STUDENT: Why do you teach "step, step, triple, triple" when nobody that dances now uses that step pattern? I've watched novices to pros and nobody uses those steps. Why not teach us the same thing everyone else is doing?

INSTRUCTOR: (almost verbatim Artemia's comment)



It's less that it's passe and more that once you learn the basics of a dance, the connection and the lead/follow... you can make the conscious choice to dance in a way that doesn't harm the dance itself while still making it enjoyable. I probably said this in my last post, but I use it a lot: "You need to know the rules in order to be able to break them."



I see what Artemia is saying, but for the most part guys are using this as an excuse for sloppy and/or non-existent footwork. Many of them stand immobile or they step on the beat without ever showing signs they know what a triple step is. I'm not passing judgement -- I'm merely observing what seems to be going on. WCS is changing so that men step on the beat for six -- or they don't step at all, and this is going on at all levels.

The judges seem to condone this footwork so I ask the same question that student did!

[Artemia]

I feel like you're using too many incorrect absolutes and speculations. How do you know the judges are condoning those things? How educated are these judges you are basing your assumptions off of? If you are a self-proclaimed "beginner" dancer (and really, we are all beginners for a long time, not just a few weeks) then I would caution you against forming such certain opinions just based on observation of a single scene. I for one almost always triple because I was lucky to be trained with a very traditional swing background, though I may triple with syncopations or step to the music when I hear it coming.

I don't feel that it is ok for a dancer to take out all their triples, and as I mentioned earlier I have had discussions with judges regarding the same subject and been told clearly that it is not ok, and will hurt a dancer in competition.

Perhaps in your local scene (since I don't know where you're from I can't base it off of my knowledge, though I have met dancers from all over the US so I might know a few people from your area) there's just so little traditional swing training that people don't know any better... it's up to educated dance advocates to bring WCS back to its traditional structure while still allowing the breathing room and creativity that we love so much to thrive.

I encourage you to talk with a judge in your area about this topic. Choose a leader whose dance style seems to lack all triples, look up their points, see how far they have made it in international competitions. So far I've seen that lack of triples will get you into intermediate, but it's hard/almost impossible to solidify yourself in advanced without triples. Even flash and trash might get you farther!

[toothlesstiger]

Until I've got the credentials or invitations to be a judge, I'm not about to pass judgement on the judges I see at any competition. An experienced, educated eye can see an awful lot that is invisible to the beginner.
As my knowledge of technique has grown, I see very different things in dancers than I used to. I used to be absolutely befuddled by world level international foxtrot, as the dancers always seemed out of time with the music. Now I seem something entirely different.

[pygmalion]

Yup. The dancers just heard and responded to something in the music you didn't see or hear, yet. That's not the same thing as sloppy footwork or inaccurate timing.

[Artemia]

I'd love to see examples, though I am not personally qualified to judge or pick out specifics from an intermediate-level dancer. I'd like to throw a video into the ring, though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdv4zOYGB0w

These are two of my favorite pros, Melissa Rutz (who is a pro in San Francisco, one of the most effortless looking dancers on the circuit) and Robert Royston (a man who is so deeply ingrained into the history of this dance that he can be considered one of the kings of swing imho.) You'll notice that even beyond the straight up accents in the music RR does not always step with triples. They are swinging, they are interpreting the music, and every movement is done with the true intent to keep connection and body flight within the pattern, not to stay with the "walk walk, triple step, anchor step" basic. This is still WCS in every way, shape and form. And a fantastic watch!!

[tangotime]

though I am not personally qualified to judge or pick out specifics





and Robert Royston (a man who is so deeply ingrained into the history of this dance that he can be considered one of the kings of swing imho.)






1st para... well I am


Secondly. Sorry, but I really wasnt that impressed. ( she was fine ).

Being "ingrained ", does not necessarily make anyone more adept ,than anyone else .


NB.. the incorrect term of " footwork " is frequently mis-used( on most of the sites ) .

There is a clear distinction between "footwork " and " foot POSITIONS".. they are NOT one and the same thing !

[Artemia]

1st para... well I am


Secondly. Sorry, but I really wasnt that impressed. ( she was fine ).

Being "ingrained ", does not necessarily make anyone more adept ,than anyone else .


NB.. the incorrect term of " footwork " is frequently mis-used( on most of the sites ) .

There is a clear distinction between "footwork " and " foot POSITIONS".. they are NOT one and the same thing !


We're actually having a civil discussion on this forum (in contrast to a lot of the stuff going around the Westie world right now, which is why I am here and not there) so I'm not going to encourage this to get worse. However, I get the impression that you may be a judge for the ballroom world, rather than the WCS circuit? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not intending any sort of offense.

However, I would have a hard time finding anyone I run into on the WCS circuit (though they DO exist, we have seen this first hand in the last week) who would insult the dancing of two of the world's top pros. That's like a ballroom dancer saying "Eh, Yulia is fine on a given day, but we have people in our own studio who could take her. Why bother flying her halfway across the world, we'll just teach the master class ourselves, it's the same caliber."

And I do believe in this discussion we are talking about footwork rather than foot position. We are referencing the removal of triples in order to be musical or be lazy.. and which the OP was seeing at their studio. (etc etc etc) Foot position would be mistaking a 5th position for a 3rd and failing to align your body correctly over your feet.. which could be a frame issue rather than a conscious (or poor instruction, if we follow the original train of thought of this thread) choice of footwork.

The video I shared was used as an example of how professional lead/follow dancing (note that was not a choreographed routine, btw, but complete improv to a song they both know but were not prepared in advance to dance to) can often remove triples in favor of musicality and pattern extension. Triples still existed within the dance, and for the anchor and many other patterns when they were called for, rather than as an afterthought.

[rbazsz]

I feel like you're using too many incorrect absolutes and speculations. How do you know the judges are condoning those things?

Because the judges awarded the contestants that didn't use WCS footwork.


How educated are these judges you are basing your assumptions off of?
Very experienced, well known, and without a doubt very qualified.


If you are a self-proclaimed "beginner" dancer (and really, we are all beginners for a long time, not just a few weeks) then I would caution you against forming such certain opinions just based on observation of a single scene.
I'm beyond beginner level, especially in WCS. I have attended and competed in several major WCS events, so I'm not basing what I saw on one example.


I for one almost always triple because I was lucky to be trained with a very traditional swing background, though I may triple with syncopations or step to the music when I hear it coming.
As I wrote in earlier posts, it's the men that have done away with triples. Most women do triples -- perhaps because they have to in order to move properly.


I don't feel that it is OK for a dancer to take out all their triples, and as I mentioned earlier I have had discussions with judges regarding the same subject and been told clearly that it is not OK, and will hurt a dancer in competition.
Judges say it hurts dancers. OK, but it doesn't seem to me that dancers are being penalized.

Let's don't just focus on competitions however -- the trend to avoid triples is far more prevalent in the social dance scene. I really don't know which one is most important to discuss because it's like a dog chasing its own tail.


Perhaps in your local scene (since I don't know where you're from I can't base it off of my knowledge, though I have met dancers from all over the US so I might know a few people from your area)
Phoenix, Arizona metro area


there's just so little traditional swing training that people don't know any better...Yes, it's quite hard to find especially outside of established studios.


it's up to educated dance advocates to bring WCS back to its traditional structure while still allowing the breathing room and creativity that we love so much to thrive.
The teachers in my area are doing their job because they all emphasize proper footwork. If people ignore the lessons it could be because some other dance is evolving that is similar to WCS but not the same.


I encourage you to talk with a judge in your area about this topic. Choose a leader whose dance style seems to lack all triples, look up their points, see how far they have made it in international competitions. So far I've seen that lack of triples will get you into intermediate, but it's hard/almost impossible to solidify yourself in advanced without triples. Even flash and trash might get you farther!Good idea. I'll do that and report back what I find.

[fascination]

I don't know alot about WCS except that I have watched alot of men dance it socially and then some in ballroom venue socials...but I do know alot about men...and I know that anytime many of them can "conserve their energy" many of them will...and I think that solves your disappearing triple dilemma right there...jes sayin' :)

[pygmalion]

Not to mention that, if you can actually hear the music beyond the very basics, there are so many things you can do in the same space as a triple and still end up in the right place, on the correct foot, at the right time. Syncopations rock. Just saying. :wink:

IIRC, Vince A (Remember him? He and his wife were, and I assume are, very active in the WCS competition scene.) mentioned WCS rules that require a minimum number of basics. I don't remember the details of how many basics per what (measure? phrase? dunno) and I don't know if a basic is mandated to include triple steps.

Is there anybody here who judges WCS and who knows what actually defines a basic in WCS competition?

[fascination]

all I know is that whenever I dance wcs, the guy is usually doing as little as possible (while looking exceptionally cool, mind you...but still :))

[pygmalion]

all I know is that whenever I dance wcs, the guy is usually doing as little as possible (while looking exceptionally cool, mind you...but still :))


*giggle* Amen.

[Steve Pastor]

Examples of WCS/"Western Swing" can be seen in both "Rock Around the Clock" and "Don't Knock th Rock". In both cases it is NOT in the scenes withmultiple couples. Both songs that are danced to are by Bill Haley and His Comets. I'm pretty sure Earl Barton is the male in both scenes, dancing with two different women in each film.
Barton dances one "double rhythm": a rock step, one double rhythm, a tap step, and one triple rhythm, a "triple step".

I am positive that it is no coincidence that Laure Haile wrote that students should learn to dance singles, doubles, or triples when possible to all of the first five patterns she presented in the first written documentation of "Western Swing" before moving on to the next patterns.

Skippy Blair wrote in 1978 "Replace the man's 1st TRIPLE (counts 3 & 4) with a "tap STEP". (and there were only 6 pages in her book about "West Coast Swing' ... "Golden State Swing". (It was known as "California Style Swing" in Gilley's in Texas in 1979.)

In fact when dancing to the rock 'n' roll of the 50s, as was done in the two movies cited above, dancing one less triple would be more in line with the note on the sheet music for "Hook, Line and Sinker", and as heard in the song as recorded when listening to the percussion, play with a steady beat. (Guitar parts and vocal were "syncopated", however. And if I remember right, there was sax, and the durmmer didn't ALWAYS play the same beat. You can listen to the song on YouTube.)

Note too, that although Blair wrote, "The only problem that exists in SWING is when someone decides that there is only ONE WAY to dance it" in 1978, she has also help develop a judging standard to preserve the essence of "West Coast Swing".

Complicated issue this, with lots of room for discussion.

I have toyed with the idea of taking the "judging training", not because I think I'm qualified to judge, but to learn more about how things ARE "judged". I'm not a big fan of dance competitions, but it has been a fact of swing history from the beginning.

[pygmalion]

Yep, Steve. Lots of room for discussion, both from a musical and from a dance perspective. I suppose triple steps matter A LOT, if they're required as part of a basic in competition. (I'd love to hear from a competitor on that. I would be surprised if triples are required, but it would be nice to know what really defines a basic.)

From a social dance perspective, my take has always been to make sure that I'm on the "correct" foot at the beginning of most phrases (all phrases, if I'm dancing with a newbie or non-musician,) not to distract my partner, and to play with the music and have fun.

[kayak]

I wanted to add three points to this fine discussion.

First, it isn't just "men's advanced footwork" at play. Women have equal opportunity for creativity. The ladies I dance with use all kinds of variations of footwork and subtle timing changes. There must be fifty ways to do an anchor that are beyond the basic triple.

Second, I like Tangotime's description of foot placement. Regardless of how many steps are taken, there are certain places were a dancer has to be positioned at and a specific foot that needs to be weighted. How each of us gets to that point on the floor on the right foot and on the right beat is irrellavent.

Finally, WCS is not unique in the difficulty of finding basics that line up with beginner class patterns. If we look at something like Smooth Foxtrot, it is rare to see better dancers doing a step step side together basic. They are in there, but don't look much like those beginning steps.

[tangotime]

However, I get the impression that you may be a judge for the ballroom world, rather than the WCS circuit? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am not intending any sort of offense.





Im an adjudicator in all styles, and have danced / taught WCS since the late 50s( not so much since being in the UK no demand ).. and no, Im not and never have been on a " circuit". And, why would you believe that would exempt me from knowing anything about non formalised dance ?

[pygmalion]

How each of us gets to that point on the floor on the right foot and on the right beat is irrellavent.


Yes and no. Meaning yes. Get your foot in the right place at the right time. :lol: OTOH, if my getting my weight in the right place at the right time "creatively" is a problem for my partner, I need to cut it out. I love, love, love dancing with newbies, just because ... they need encouragement and it makes me happy to encourage them. Playing around with syncopations in that context can be downright counterproductive for them. KWIM? How much freedom I have, I think, at least partially depends on whom I'm dancing with.

[kayak]

This is true. I think the difference between being a good follower and a bad one is being able to decorate the dance without effecting the lead. In that sense, it doesn't matter if the leader is a beginner struggling with a side pass or the best pro trying to lead some super combo.

The point I was attempting to make is that it isn't a case of just men adjusting the footwork. A major part of the dance it the lady's ability to adjust her footwork as well. Yes, most ladies will have more triples in their movement because a turn that is traveling is a chaine'. However, where a couple places those triples is up to their creativity more than following a walk walk triple triple structure.

[pygmalion]

The point I was attempting to make is that it isn't a case of just men adjusting the footwork. A major part of the dance it the lady's ability to adjust her footwork as well. Yes, most ladies will have more triples in their movement because a turn that is traveling is a chaine'. However, where a couple places those triples is up to their creativity more than following a walk walk triple triple structure.


This. The sky's the limit... within a few limits. :wink:

[Dancelf]

IIRC, Vince A (Remember him? He and his wife were, and I assume are, very active in the WCS competition scene.) mentioned WCS rules that require a minimum number of basics. I don't remember the details of how many basics per what (measure? phrase? dunno) and I don't know if a basic is mandated to include triple steps.

Is there anybody here who judges WCS and who knows what actually defines a basic in WCS competition?

Not a judge, but I'll throw an answer into the ring, and we'll see if anybody tries to dispute it.

The conditions of contest vary from event to event. Most, if not all, of the NASDE swing events share the same "statement of swing":

Swing is an American Rhythm Dance based on a foundation of 6-beat and 8-beat
patterns that incorporate a wide variety of rhythms built on 2-beat single, delayed, double, triple, and blank rhythm units. The 6-beat patterns include, but are not limited to, passes, underarm turns, push-breaks, open-to-closed, and closed-to-open position patterns. The 8-beat patterns include, but are not limited to, whips, swing-outs, Lindy circles, and Shag pivots. Although they are not part of the foundation of the dance as stated above, 2- beat and 4-beat extension rhythm breaks may be incorporated to extend a pattern, to phrase the music, and/or to accent breaks.

Note that it is deliberately broad, intended to include Lindy, WCS, Shag, Hand Dancing....

And then in a given competition, you'll get a guideline like this one (taken from Boogie by the Bay 2011, WCS Jack and Jill):

Our judges will expect to see at least 90% recognizable swing content. For our West Coast Swing Jack & Jill divisions, a majority of the swing content must be West
Coast Swing.

90%[1] is generally understood to be in units of time - for every minute that you are dancing, you must be demonstrating "recognizable swing content" for at least 54 seconds. In other words, you are limited to 12-15 beats of "slop".

The most common interpretation of this counts only the non swing movement. For example, if you extend a whip with a four beat samba step to match an articulation in the music, you'll normally be charged with 2 seconds of non swing content. There are a few hardliners who would prefer to charge you for the entire non swing pattern - the four beats of samba AND the eight beats of whip that it interrupted. Head Judge is supposed to ensure that a consistent interpretation is used by all judges - which means the hard liners don't win very often.

In practice - I'm not sure that any of this is enforced very often.

As far as I know, there isn't a definition of basic west coast documented anywhere, in the sense that you can point to a particular passage in the rules and claim that it requires/does not require "anchor triples" in each basic pattern. The dance is still young enough that we haven't reached that level of rules lawyering.

[1] Different divisions will normally have different requirements - 90% for Jack and Jill, 80% for Classic, 70% for Showcase. On paper, anyway.

[Peaches]

I dunno. I don't know anything about the competitive WCS scene, but from what I've observed social dancing it has always seemed to me to be a case of syncopating and/or embellishing and/or "accepted variations." I guess in my mind I just consider it similar to, say, left side passes. No, you don't see many basic LSPs being done by the really good dancers...at least not the way you see it taught to beginners. But you do see a LSP with an inside turn, or an outside turn, or some combination, or with some interruption, or that changes direction or something. It's not your basic LSP, but if you stop and look at it and think about it, you can see the underlying structure. I find footwork to be the same way. No, the men may not be doing walk, triple, triple, but you can usually see that they're keeping that rhythm there. (I'd think they almost have to.) It may be syncopated, it may be embellished, it may be tweaked...but the basic rhythm is still there. And why wouldn't you play with the footwork and the rhythm and just about everything else if you're good enough to? Why limit yourself to the same footwork timing all the time?

[Steve Pastor]

As far as I know, there isn't a definition of basic west coast documented anywhere, in the sense that you can point to a particular passage in the rules and claim that it requires/does not require "anchor triples" in each basic pattern.

FYI "There are a few BASIC RULES for learning..." "Later on you can experiment and add RHYTHM VARIATIONS and STYLE VARIATIONS."
(BOLDING added!)

"6. SHE... will have a RHYTHM PATTERN (to start)... and a LEFT TRIPLE"

The dance is still young enough that we haven't reached that level of rules lawyering.


I'd have to say that Western Swing/WCS is hardly new, in this context...

According to Silvester ( 1977, etc) it took a mere 6 years for "the love of order which seems to be inate in the English" to assert intself and try to " standardize the basic steps of the Foxtrot and One-Step".

Blair, et al, have done a good job in keeping swing relatively unprescribed.

[kayak]

And why wouldn't you play with the footwork and the rhythm and just about everything else if you're good enough to? Why limit yourself to the same footwork timing all the time?

Plus, if we consider dance more than marching, there are a lot of changes in the lady's momentum. Counter balancing those movements often dictates how the guys can move without letting her fall.

[stash]

In my limited experience in all forms of dance, that the basics never go away. But rather they get built upon--so if you don't learn them every "advanced" step will probably not make much sense and will be rather difficult.

I went to a WSC weekend in Reston and one pros made us warm-up with all the basic and all the basic variations on the basic.

[Steve Pastor]

Thought of this thread when I came across this.

Subtle Triple

1 Those triples that have afeeling of a triple in the dancers CPB, but are danced with little of no movement in the feet. An observer does not see or hear the three weight changes, but the dancer feel the movement and a "practiced eye sees it take place.
2 Many WCS and NC2 step dancers use primarliy subtle triples....
source Skippy Blair 1995 Dance Terminology Notebook

ToothlessTiger came closest to this answer, I decided after a quick review of the thread. Others, too, but not as close.

[pygmalion]

In my limited experience in all forms of dance, that the basics never go away. But rather they get built upon--so if you don't learn them every "advanced" step will probably not make much sense and will be rather difficult.

This. I also think that dance is a lot like music in the sense that, if done by a high enough level dancer/player, the basic may not be immediately obvious to people who are relatively new to the scene.

In music, that might sound like an amazing riff that, when boiled down, is really just scales and arpeggios played at lightening speed. Nothing simpler or more basic.

In dance, it might look like very, very basic footwork, with a tap-step substituted for a triple (couldn't be easier.) Add some arm styling and a body roll or two, and it doesn't look basic at all, even though it is.

[megeliz]

In dance, it might look like very, very basic footwork, with a tap-step substituted for a triple (couldn't be easier.) Add some arm styling and a body roll or two, and it doesn't look basic at all, even though it is.

Very true! I also know an AMAZING lead (he won the Master's division at the US Open in 2010), who pretty much only leads basics, but he takes you all over the place with them, and you really have to just dance 2 beats at a time, because you never know what direction he's going to lead the next 2 in - if the room's empty enough, he'll take you all over the floor! But it's funny, because until you realize that he's only leading basics, you'll think he doesn't at all. Girls have complained to me that he NEVER leads basics, and I'll be like no, WATCH him, that's all he ever leads - Look, side pass, whip, underarm, tuck!

[Vince A]

Enjoyed catching up and reading this thread, esp in the light of contemplating trying to compete again . . . *gulp* did I say that???

[chuck4788]

I also want to add some points to this fine discussion.

Like the OP I also dance in the Greater Phoenix area, and attend WCS dances as well as take WCS lessons from several instructors. The foot work observed by the OP is not lazy footwork, it is well defined and is used to smooth out the dance. Basically it is replacing the first two parts of a triple with a hold or tap step to smooths out the dance, add emphasis to whips, or to provide a better anchor for pushes.

My wife does 1, 2&3, 4, 5&6 on left side passes; so she can begin turns sooner.

I also try to keep my toes in contact with the floor; making weight transfers difficult to see.

I should also add that the Lady uses a coaster step on whips, but absolutely not on an anchor.

All of the above can make the dance look different, but it isn't.