Low vs. High boleo - leader's choice or follower's choice?

[LoveTango]

I rarely do high boleos. High boleos happen only occasionally when I dance with certain leaders.

One day I was watching. The leader who just danced with me was leading another lady. They made many beautifully presented and natural high boleos (note: the dance floor was nearly empty at the time, so we can leave the appropriateness out of the question). I am quite sure that the leader would have led me the same way. My low boleo didn't make me feel awkward. Usually if I missed something, I would realize immediately afterward. I was so surprised that the results from the same lead could be so different.

I wonder whether it is the follower's choice to make high or low boleo? In other words, when I followed with low boleo, would the leader feel dissapointed since he would have expected high boleo? If it is lead, how can I tell?

Thanks!

P.S., if I hadn't seen the contrast, I would have thought our dance had been near perfect (in the sense of lead-and-follow, not in the sense of performance).

[pwpulto]

I think it is a followers choice. As you already pointed out the main reason for doing low voleos is a social one: making sure nobody gets hurt. A high voleo could be experienced a bit more natural. But I wouldn't be worried to much about it. The to and fro movement that the leader leads doesn't contain an indication of the leg moving up. So it could not be considered "wrong" to do a low voleo.
So in my opinion, the main reason for you to change your low voleos in high voleos would be a matter of taste. Am I right that you found the high voleos looking very nice?

[LadyLeader]

The lead can vary but it is always a followers choice to choose the safety one! I have had an another couples boleo hitting my hip with force at a busy milonga - not good at all! It can be dangerous too; one of my frends posted a picture showing a bleeding bruise just above her knee.

If you feel a lead for a high BACKwards boleo choose a low. The lead can be wrong or unclear so the follower misunderstands it. Choose safety!

If a leader complains about your choise say: I felt your high boleo lead but I did not knew if there is another couple behind us and in such a case I ALWAYS PRESENT A LOW BOLEO!

[opendoor]

..In other words, when I followed with low boleo, would the leader feel dissapointed since he would have expected high boleo?...

For me: I would be veeeeery disappointed, because I only really use to lead a high one if it is possible.

Sorry did not read the entire thread, so forgive me if someone already wrote on this: There are two leading techniques for circular back boleos: the old and VU way is to lead the entrance of the boleo. The new and Naviera technique is to lead the exit. Though I belong to either world I only use the latter. The informations I can transfer when leading a boleo is the direction (ankle, knee, hip hight) and it´s energy.

[sixela]

The ultimate choice rests with the follower, but the energy and the leading can actually influence what the follower thinks is possible, so I'd hesitate to blame it on the follower if a high boleo turns out to be dangerous: I tend to lead "softer" boleos when there's less room, which also means that when I *really* go for it, it's my fault if the follower mows someone down.

Some followers, though, will not get hints. I know one particular follower who will, at the mere hint of a boleo, actually disengage from the embrace and lower herself to give her low boleo more reach. Scary moments on the dance floor (and proof positive that it's not because a boleo is low that it isn't dangerous; the only safe boleo is the one where the follower dissociates but doesn't let the foot wander too far, neither low nor high).

[Mladenac]

The lead can vary but it is always a followers choice to choose the safety one! I have had an another couples boleo hitting my hip with force at a busy milonga - not good at all! It can be dangerous too; one of my frends posted a picture showing a bleeding bruise just above her knee.

If you feel a lead for a high BACKwards boleo choose a low. The lead can be wrong or unclear so the follower misunderstands it. Choose safety!

If a leader complains about your choise say: I felt your high boleo lead but I did not knew if there is another couple behind us and in such a case I ALWAYS PRESENT A LOW BOLEO!

Great post.

The leader must not lead high boleo in the crowd and the leader must not interpret high boleo in the crowd.
i.e. High boleo must not be performed in the crowd

[bordertangoman]

Great post.

The leader must not lead high boleo in the crowd and the leader must not interpret high boleo in the crowd.
i.e. High boleo must not be performed in the crowd

how about you address the OP? it was a technical question, not one of appropriateness...

[gniksic]

From my experience, the lead/follow is quite clear: The rapid (but still gentle) change of direction to either side causes the high voleo. The follower simply gets that amount of torsion and energy so she has to do that (leaving the appropriateness and the quality of the lead aside for now). She might choose not to follow that if:
a) she doesn't feel good inside (doesn't know the technique or she feels it is unsafe which both could be the leader's fault from the start.)
b) she is caught off-balance (which could be her fault or the leader's). It is not uncommon for the leaders to overdo it with the energy in the lead or to simply direct that energy the wrong way which causes the follower to lose her stability (axis). And that's the most important prerequisite for the voleo (in my opinion... i might be missing something, though)
c) she interprets the music her way.

If you chose the follower that is not comfortable doing voleos then you can expect a) to happen. You simply choose not to lead them and no problem. At least you won't have a problem with appropriateness. :)
If b) happens to a follower, it is just natural that she will extend and slow down the movement, regaining her balance along the way. No leader should feel disappointed by such a situation.
If the follower interprets the music on her own (not overdoing it, of course), that can only make me happy.

I would like to address the appropriateness once more, though. High voleos are dangerous, in general, and many have said that they shouldn't be performed (=lead) in a crowd. Fine. But it seems nobody mentioned the opposite situation: the leader leads a slow contra-movement during the pivot but the follower decides to do a high voleo! In that situation the leader is helpless: he can only apologize to a couple which just got hammered... :/

[sixela]

From my experience, the lead/follow is quite clear: The rapid (but still gentle) change of direction to either side causes the high voleo. The follower simply gets that amount of torsion and energy so she has to do that
She has to dissociate. What she does with her feet, though, is another matter.

It takes active control not to let them go at all (but many followers can actually pull it off), but it takes a lot less effort to turn a boleo into a low rather than high boleo (gravity is even the follower's friend to keep boleos low).

Your explanation makes sense to explain that the follower will follow (duh!) and execute a boleo. But I've seen no argument explaining why a high boleo is necessarily the only response.

[gniksic]

First of all, all I say is my opinion based on what I have learned so far. And yes, I forgot to explain in detail why I think it's the only (natural and relaxed) way.

The disassociation if necessary because that's the only way the follower can keep facing the leader with her upper body and maintain contact after the change of direction. But by then, the leader already gave a decent amount of energy into th first turn: that energy has to be released somewhere.

If the follower's free leg is relaxed (and I believe it should be) and if the disassociation caused her leg to move after her torso (which, again, I believe it should) then the leg (and after it, the foot) is the only part of her body containing the original energy of the first turn: it goes on and ends up in the air because of the change of direction (the leg "realizes" it should follow the waist and the torso with a delay). How high in the air? Depending on the original energy and the follower's awareness of the surrounding dancers (some followers turn the foot towards their ...khm... butt and some up in the air. But both ways still release the energy the natural way: kinetic energy into potential energy).

Therefore: contact with the leader, disassociation, relaxed free leg (and foot) and enough energy transfered should, IMHO, cause the follower's leg to continue on its way. In the end, the follower can always choose to actively cut the voleo or keep that energy down. But she does it actively (i.e. the leg and foot are not relaxed but instead under her full control) and, also, she could destabilize herself that way because te energy release is not natural (you might be a experienced follower so it doesn't happen to you...)

(OT: I'm a physicist, so in my head it all has to do with inertia, conservation of linear and angular momentum and energy, but I don't think you wanted that kind of explanation, sorry... :) )

(OT2: Sorry about my English. My sentences may be confusing. I wouldn't like to be misunderstood because of that. Please tell my in a PM if something is wrong.)

[bordertangoman]

In a circular boleo the follower has choice whether its high or low; if its linear; the movement of the leg away from the body will naturally swing up. if its inappropriate then her only option is to resist the lead and not move her free leg.

[Subliminal]

There are ways to force a low circular boleo. Essentially the leader presses "down" on the standing leg, forcing the follower to feel like she is actively fighting him if she tries to get the leg off the ground. This is easier to do with a boleo and not a contra boleo, if I remember correctly. Haven't practiced it in a while.

[sixela]

In a circular boleo the follower has choice whether its high or low; if its linear; the movement of the leg away from the body will naturally swing up. if its inappropriate then her only option is to resist the lead and not move her free leg.

Correct. But then, linear boleos (at least those away from the leader) aren't things I use frequently unless there's really lots of room.

As for "pressing down" the follower firmly on the foot, it can be done, but the danger is that you can (especially with a follower who responds) both lower yourselves to such a point that the low boleo becomes a lot larger. And I think low boleos are also dangerous if they're overly large...

[Dave Bailey]

I wonder whether it is the follower's choice to make high or low boleo? In other words, when I followed with low boleo, would the leader feel dissapointed since he would have expected high boleo? If it is lead, how can I tell?
My understanding - which may be total rubbish - is that the leader provides a certain amount of energy to the follower for a boleo; that is, boleos are always led.

Now, the follower may then decide what to do with that energy:
1. Damp it down partially (to reduce the boleo) or completely (to refuse it)
2. Transfer it as is. We'll get back to that one.
3. Amplify it - that is, enhance the natural free leg movement to make it look more dramatic.

So, the follower has the option as to what to do with her free leg movement.

Now, getting back to point 2: if the follower transfers 100% of the energy provided by the leader (neither damping nor amplifying), then the responsibility for the level of the boleo is up to the leader. If the leader transfers a lot of energy, there's a large boleo resulting - if a small amount, then there's a small boleo. To be honest, I think that "100% transfer" is the way to start learning boleos, otherwise it gets too complex.

So, in my opinion, the answer is "both".

Spookily enough, I was teaching boleos last week (http://www.learningtango.com/Classes/Notes-July2011.html#3July) :) - we didn't go into the energy thing much though.

[dchester]

I've been taught two completely different ways of leading high vs low boleos. One method involves the amount of speed or energy used to lead them, while the other involves the leader goes up or down when leading them. However at the end of the day, the follower still needs to have enough sense to know that if it's crowded, don't do them high.

So like DB said, both.

[LadyLeader]

I've been taught two completely different ways of leading high vs low boleos. One method involves the amount of speed or energy used to lead them, while the other involves the leader goes up or down when leading them.
I usually combine the two techniques you presented to get more clear lead.
So if I want a low it is slow to the turning point, a slow turn and slowly back.
In the same time i lower her part of the frame or flex my knee to get lower turning. The lowest point is during her turning and then up again.

The front boleos I can do high because between us they are usually safe.

[LadyLeader]

Followers, could you please tell more about the boleo techinque!

The only thing I know and am longing for is the feeling of the point when the follower has reached her maximum turn for her body. Have had that only once!

[LoveTango]

Thank you all for your kind responses. I read them all, but will not reply individually, since I am not capable of making comments toward each opinion. :)

I mentioned earlier that my high boleos only shows up occasionally with certain leaders. Now that after reading your responses, I reflect back. An interesting observation is that these leaders who made my high boleos happen are all much taller than I am. And at the time high boleo happens, they all involved sudden turns.

I think one factor that I was doing low while another follower could do high boleo is that I am not accustomed to high boleos. I guess, I don't have enough reflex to bring my leg up high when encounter the same leading energy.

P.S., I think height difference does make difference. When I dance with a shorter leader, my body feels somewhat pressed down, and the boleo becomes a sweeping motion.

[LoveTango]

Spookily enough, I was teaching boleos last week (http://www.learningtango.com/Classes/Notes-July2011.html#3July) :) - we didn't go into the energy thing much though.

Take it easy. I wasn't in your class. :rolleyes:

[Steve Pastor]

I wonder whether it is the follower's choice to make high or low boleo? In other words, when I followed with low boleo, would the leader feel dissapointed since he would have expected high boleo? If it is lead, how can I tell?

Interesting that no one has mentioned the music.

So, since dance can/should be a representation of the music, what about the music?

Such as, was there a sudden accent or accents in the music when you saw the high boleos, vs the music being more sublte when you were dancing?

What I would think would be something like, oh, look, high boleos that are completely gratuitous and have little or nothing to do with the music, done just for the sake of doing them.
Or, maybe they were called for by the music, or at least in sync it?

[LoveTango]

Interesting that no one has mentioned the music.

So, since dance can/should be a representation of the music, what about the music?

Such as, was there a sudden accent or accents in the music when you saw the high boleos, vs the music being more sublte when you were dancing?

What I would think would be something like, oh, look, high boleos that are completely gratuitous and have little or nothing to do with the music, done just for the sake of doing them.
Or, maybe they were called for by the music, or at least in sync it?

Yes. Now that you mentioned it. One leader who often lead me into high boleo strongly prefers quick and light music (jumpy, light hearted, happy? I don't know how to describe). So boleo must have happened along with that type of music (for me, at least).

[LoveTango]

Such as, was there a sudden accent or accents in the music when you saw the high boleos, vs the music being more sublte when you were dancing?


Next time when I have a chance to watch that, I will pay attention to this aspect. Thanks.

[Subliminal]

Correct. But then, linear boleos (at least those away from the leader) aren't things I use frequently unless there's really lots of room.

As for "pressing down" the follower firmly on the foot, it can be done, but the danger is that you can (especially with a follower who responds) both lower yourselves to such a point that the low boleo becomes a lot larger. And I think low boleos are also dangerous if they're overly large...

Um, when did this turn into an anti-all-boleos thread? If a leader is good enough to control the height of a low boleo, he should be able to figure out how much space it requires. I've never been stabbed with a low boleo.

[LoveTango]

Thank you all for your kind responses. I read them all, but will not reply individually, since I am not capable of making comments toward each opinion. :)

I mentioned earlier that my high boleos only shows up occasionally with certain leaders. Now that after reading your responses, I reflect back. An interesting observation is that these leaders who made my high boleos happen are all much taller than I am. And at the time high boleo happens, they all involved sudden turns.

I think one factor that I was doing low while another follower could do high boleo is that I am not accustomed to high boleos. I guess, I don't have enough reflex to bring my leg up high when encounter the same leading energy.

P.S., I think height difference does make difference. When I dance with a shorter leader, my body feels somewhat pressed down, and the boleo becomes a sweeping motion.

Also, my high boleo is mostly limited to the part below my knee, while the other follower's boleo starts all the way up from her waist level (which I am not capable of doing naturally). She is not affected by the fact that the leader is shorter than she is. - Does this make sense?

[Subliminal]

Speaking as a leader who sometimes follows, it seems like when I am following, I have to make a conscious decision when I start dancing about how the boleos are going to go. There's kind of an assumption going on here from the leaders that the follower makes a conscious decision as she feels the lead on how high it's going to be. That's not my experience, though I admit I'm still a newbie at following. By the time I can think about it, it already happened, particularly with contra boleos.

[sixela]

Um, when did this turn into an anti-all-boleos thread?

I'm not anti-all-boleos at all. In fact, depending on the music and the crowd, I frequently have to lead a boleo (but usually one without too much energy) to end up with the timing and direction I want.

If a leader is good enough to control the height of a low boleo,The point is that you don't control the boleo, only the energy (I agree that the follower doesn't consciously decide to do the boleo, but she usually does have different "modes" of responding. I know followers who will NEVER do a high boleo no matter what energy you give them.)

Some followers will do low boleos that have all the room their stretched leg gives them, and if they're lowered much they can reach far. As I said, one particular follower I know even lowers on her own onto the standing foot to reach very far, further than I usually anticipate. Now that I know her, of course, I know how to handle it.


he should be able to figure out how much space it requires. I've never been stabbed with a low boleo.I have. Well, you don't get stabbed, you just get mowed down or get a sore ankle.

[LadyLeader]

In a circular boleo the follower has choice whether its high or low; if its linear; the movement of the leg away from the body will naturally swing up. if its inappropriate then her only option is to resist the lead and not move her free leg.

I think differently about linear boleo!
If I give a slow out for her, slow turning point and a slow in so her feeling is more a sterech and then the foot does not go up. (anyhow there is no leaded energy for it)

Some more energy given at the in-phase and she maybe bend the knee and the foot goes up some but it is on her way back an it should not be so dangerous.

If the dynamic is given already at the turn and in-phase the foot goes up earlier and higher with more energy. More space needed!

When all the three phases has a vigorous energy then the feet is really flying hiiiiigh! .....and follower choices are few!

[LadyLeader]

.... But it seems nobody mentioned the opposite situation: the leader leads a slow contra-movement during the pivot but the follower decides to do a high voleo! In that situation the leader is helpless: he can only apologize to a couple which just got hammered... :/

yes that is a difficult one! One experienced leader told me he does not do boleos directly with a totally new follower. He finds a space and tests her responce to a regular boleo and then dances according to that!

[bordertangoman]

Speaking as a leader who sometimes follows, it seems like when I am following, I have to make a conscious decision when I start dancing about how the boleos are going to go. There's kind of an assumption going on here from the leaders that the follower makes a conscious decision as she feels the lead on how high it's going to be. That's not my experience, though I admit I'm still a newbie at following. By the time I can think about it, it already happened, particularly with contra boleos.

what is a contra boleo?

[Subliminal]

what is a contra boleo?

Just a way of describing one type of boleo. Basically, you can either move with the follower around the circle and stop when you want to create the boleo, or you can move opposite around the circle from her, then the boleo is created at the moment your two forces oppose. Some teachers call the former movement a boleo and the latter movement a contra boleo. Contra boleos tend to be the snappy/abrupt kind of movement.

[Dave Bailey]

The only thing I know and am longing for is the feeling of the point when the follower has reached her maximum turn for her body. Have had that only once!
It requires both good timing from the leader and good technique from the follower. The nice thing about boleos is that they're simple. The nasty thing is that they're difficult.

So that's tango in a nutshell really :D

[Dave Bailey]

what is a contra boleo?
It's what they do on the Counterweight Continent.

Just a way of describing one type of boleo. Basically, you can either move with the follower around the circle and stop when you want to create the boleo, or you can move opposite around the circle from her, then the boleo is created at the moment your two forces oppose. Some teachers call the former movement a boleo and the latter movement a contra boleo. Contra boleos tend to be the snappy/abrupt kind of movement.
Ummm... that's a new one on me. I can't quite visualise it either.

[Subliminal]

Hmm. It's tough to describe. I'm sure if I could show you it in person you'd immediately know what I mean. :)

Lemme try again.. ok, so a boleo is a change of rotation right? The leader can cause this by moving his entire body with the follower, rotating the same direction as her, then stopping suddenly to make the boleo.

Or... BEFORE he wants the boleo to happen, he can move his lower body in the opposite rotation from the follower. But when he and the follower reach the limit of their embrace/disassociation, the upper body will have to snap back together, and there will be a sharper change of direction, making a quick sharp boleo. That's where the contra comes from. For a quick moment the leader is stepping around the circle in the opposite direction from the follower.

If you search youtube I'm sure you'll find something. I think Homer has a vid.

Some people don't distinguish between the two, it's all just boleos.

[LadyLeader]

It requires both good timing from the leader and good technique from the follower. The nice thing about boleos is that they're simple. The nasty thing is that they're difficult.

On one of my private lessons the follower teacher told the same thing - it is the most difficult thing!

I am supposed to turn me/her untill I feel the maximum capacity for this specific follower but I seldom sensed this. I have never heard a teacher tell HOW follower should present this.

Followers what have you heard about boleos? on clases? on ladies technics? How do you feel them?

[dchester]

what is a contra boleo?
It's a way of leading them (and actually, I think the more common way of leading them). Whether it's a boleo or contra boleo, the follower does the same thing.

[bordertangoman]

Just a way of describing one type of boleo. Basically, you can either move with the follower around the circle and stop when you want to create the boleo, or you can move opposite around the circle from her, then the boleo is created at the moment your two forces oppose. Some teachers call the former movement a boleo and the latter movement a contra boleo. Contra boleos tend to be the snappy/abrupt kind of movement.

thanks; i just lumped them in as boleos; whether they're snappy or not depends more on the lead the music and the follower....

[bordertangoman]

On one of my private lessons the follower teacher told the same thing - it is the most difficult thing!

I am supposed to turn me/her untill I feel the maximum capacity for this specific follower but I seldom sensed this. I have never heard a teacher tell HOW follower should present this.

Followers what have you heard about boleos? on clases? on ladies technics? How do you feel them?

the ladies technique is to have a loose leg. Ever watched the first karate Kid movie the little drum with string and a ball is exactly how a ladies leg should work; relaxed in the hip..but its a lot easier to demonstrate that to explain..

[Dave Bailey]

Hmm. It's tough to describe. I'm sure if I could show you it in person you'd immediately know what I mean. :)
Yeah, I know what you mean.

Lemme try again.. ok, so a boleo is a change of rotation right? The leader can cause this by moving his entire body with the follower, rotating the same direction as her, then stopping suddenly to make the boleo.
Yes, in that specific example.

(Although personally I would generally define a boleo as being a free leg movement which happens as a result of the leader leading a change of energy / direction. )

Or... BEFORE he wants the boleo to happen, he can move his lower body in the opposite rotation from the follower. But when he and the follower reach the limit of their embrace/disassociation, the upper body will have to snap back together, and there will be a sharper change of direction, making a quick sharp boleo. That's where the contra comes from. For a quick moment the leader is stepping around the circle in the opposite direction from the follower.
Umm... honestly, that sounds simply like another way of describing the same thing...
Some people don't distinguish between the two, it's all just boleos.
Yeah, that's the way I'd describe it also.

[Dave Bailey]

I am supposed to turn me/her untill I feel the maximum capacity for this specific follower but I seldom sensed this. I have never heard a teacher tell HOW follower should present this.
Strange. It only works if the follower has technique. I first learnt it from Kicca Tommasi a few years back, and she emphasised the need for followers to have good free leg technique for that.

Followers what have you heard about boleos? on clases? on ladies technics? How do you feel them?
I'm not much of a follower, but in my class on Sunday I started by:
1. Having the followers swing their leg back and forth freely
2. Getting the leaders to synchronise with that motion
3. Getting the leaders to lead that motion - damping it down and enhancing it.

That exercise is much more difficult than it sounds - but it tends to help convey the sense of catching the "end of the whip" point for the leader, and the "free leg" point for the follower.

[Joe]

I've been taught two completely different ways of leading high vs low boleos. One method involves the amount of speed or energy used to lead them, while the other involves the leader goes up or down when leading them. However at the end of the day, the follower still needs to have enough sense to know that if it's crowded, don't do them high.

So like DB said, both.
This. The leader determines the elevation of the boleo and the size/amplitude of the boleo from his lead. Keep the lead down, and the follower's leg should stay low. Give it some lift, and the leg should rise. A gentle nudge should produce a small twirl, lots of energy should create a large circle.

[Peaches]

It's what they do on the Counterweight Continent.*snort* LOL.

[bordertangoman]

*snort* LOL.

with a touch of Ochotarine magic ;)

[bordertangoman]

This. The leader determines the elevation of the boleo and the size/amplitude of the boleo from his lead. Keep the lead down, and the follower's leg should stay low. Give it some lift, and the leg should rise. A gentle nudge should produce a small twirl, lots of energy should create a large circle.

i dont know many followers ( except Hilda van Bingen I mean Sigrid Van Tilbeurgh)
who can get the slow-mo suspended boleo which is lovely (and ms Wishart....)

[bastet]

Yeah, I know what you mean.


Yes, in that specific example.

(Although personally I would generally define a boleo as being a free leg movement which happens as a result of the leader leading a change of energy / direction. )


Umm... honestly, that sounds simply like another way of describing the same thing...

Yeah, that's the way I'd describe it also.

Sub's way of describing them is how I learned them. I do agree with dchester that contra boleos tend to be led more often, and they do feel different from the ones that go in the same direction as the follower.

Here is my general interpretation of boleos as a follow:

If a leader goes in the same direction as I do for both the send and return, then there is no rebound and I will leave the boleo on the floor. This is the most common mistake I see follows (and leaders) make. If there is no rebound, which the boleo is built on, there's no need for the leg to come up. I.e., if he goes with me in both rotations, then we haven't had enough rebound to cause a boleo. If a boleo was just caused by changing directions, then there'd be boleo madness every time you did ochos or a giro.

If the leader starts in the same direction then changes (or stops as Sub said), I can do either low or high.

If the leader goes contra (more snappy) then I most often want to do high, but keep an eye on the floor to gauge how I ought to respond and just how free I should leave my leg, or if it's with a leader I trust, I'll just go for it since I'm already sure he's gauged the space i need versus the space available to us.

[bordertangoman]

so good I'll post it again

r8VoN8W4AkY

[Subliminal]

Umm... honestly, that sounds simply like another way of describing the same thing...

Well, it is and it isn't, depending on what your definition is. The end result for both is the structure we call a boleo. That's why it's perfectly find to call them the same thing, and I won't argue with you about that. ;) It's just a different way of leading the boleo, like dchester and Bastet said. One will create more force, but is less controlled.

[opendoor]

..would generally define a boleo as being a free leg movement which happens as a result of the leader leading a change of energy / direction....

Technically speaking it is rather an interrupted step that is catched up.

i dont know many followers .. except Hilda van Bingen ...I mean Sigrid Van Tilbeurgh ....

Blessed Hilda was a medieval abbess, ...and how old are you actually?

Concerning Sigrid I have a say in this matter: she is really a very good follower. I love to dance with her if she´s around.

http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/mg62649,1273697014,Hildegard_von_Bingen1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

[bordertangoman]

Technically speaking it is rather an interrupted step that is catched up.



Blessed Hilda was a medieval abbess, ...and how old are you actually?

Concerning Sigrid I have a say in this matter: she is really a very good follower. I love to dance with her if she´s around.

http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/mg62649,1273697014,Hildegard_von_Bingen1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

of course i know she was a medieaval abbess....

she occassionaly gets covered too by Garmana for instance

not telling you how old i am....

[Gssh]

I'm not much of a follower, but in my class on Sunday I started by:
1. Having the followers swing their leg back and forth freely
2. Getting the leaders to synchronise with that motion
3. Getting the leaders to lead that motion - damping it down and enhancing it.

The best exercise to experience that feeling of a "free leg" was one workshop where he had us all lined up standign about 3 feet from the wall with our hands at our sides, and asked us to fall against it, catching ourselves by essentially doing a push-up against the wall. Then we were supposed to free up one of the legs, and let it fall forward with our center of gravity, so it essentially stayed vertical under the hip, and experience how it traveled while we were falling, how much/little work we had to put into it to keep it free by bending it enough so it didn't get stuck on the floor. This was the first time that i understood in my body the difference between swinging the leg by using muscles, and freeing it up and just letting it swung by gravity/impulse and use the muscles to direct this swinging.

That is one of the reasons that i am not that fond of the suspended boleos, and high boles that don't "ride" the energy of the leader but are activly powered by the follwer- i think they are technically a quite different, and i think it is confusing for a lot of followers. I am actually quite fond of them when done right, but very few people do it right - i am speculating that instead of mastering the free leg and then tightening and exporing their control over the movement some followers start with controlling the movement, and seems to me to be more difficult to find the way to the free leg from there. When exploring the free---control continuum that exists in almost anything going from free to controlled is at least for me easier to start free and then tightening and cleaning things up than the other way round. There is nothing i find more frustrating to me than a teacher telling me that i should relax and let if flow, and i am really bad at letting go of muscular control.

Gssh

[LadyLeader]

The best exercise to experience that feeling of a "free leg" was one workshop where he had us all lined up standign about 3 feet from the wall with our hands at our sides, and asked us to fall against it, catching ourselves by essentially doing a push-up against the wall. Then we were supposed to free up one of the legs, and let it fall forward with our center of gravity, so it essentially stayed vertical under the hip, and experience how it traveled while we were falling, how much/little work we had to put into it to keep it free by bending it enough so it didn't get stuck on the floor. This was the first time that i understood in my body the difference between swinging the leg by using muscles, and freeing it up and just letting it swung by gravity/impulse and use the muscles to direct this swinging.
Gssh

Gssh, good points and wellwritten!

There is quite a lot work needed to understand in your body the different inputs of dynamics, directions and other elements included in boleo mechanisms.

Logically there should be some kind of tightening of muscles in the loose leg at the turning point just before it returns to the loose state again. followers is it so - any comments?

I have tried to understand the loose leg and the other changes during boleo process by standing in the door opening. Having my hands on the door-frame and swinging my body/torso to the room before and behind me. How can I release my leg? What happends in the turning point? What makes my feet go up? .... and so on!

[Dave Bailey]

Technically speaking it is rather an interrupted step that is catched up.
Not always - what about leading a forward linear boleo, immediately after a back one? (i.e. swinging the lady's leg back then forwards)

In that case, yes you're interrupting the step to get the swinging started, but you're simply enhancing the energy from that point on.

Similarly, a forward boleo from a forward ocho is not an interrupted step, you're simply adding more energy to the pivot.

[opendoor]

Not always - what about leading a forward linear boleo, immediately after a back one?

mmmh, ok ;) the Saludo is lead by a counter movement, too. And (sticking to the said didactics) the counter movement could be seen as a interrupted front8 (exit to the front left side in Xsystem). So, honestly, if the theory makes it easier, than stick to it. If you like the chinese way (pictures, postures, sequences) take the latter one. I am not dogmatic, at all ;) What counts is, that it feels comfortable for the follower.

[opendoor]

mmmh, ok ;) the Saludo is lead by a counter movement, too. And (sticking to the said didactics) the counter movement could be seen as a interrupted front8 (exit to the front left side in Xsystem). So, honestly, if the theory makes it easier, than stick to it. If you like the chinese way (pictures, postures, sequences) take the latter one. I am not dogmatic, at all. What counts is, that it feels comfortable for the follower.


:cheers:

[jantango]

If you're dancing socially, keep it low or forget them entirely.

If you're on stage performing, do whatever your choreography requires for the most applause.

The butt-kicking voleos which have become so popular are for those who want back problems. The twisting you have to do insures it.

[Ray Sison]

The Janine Turner Show...

[bordertangoman]

The Janine Turner Show...

whats that?

[opendoor]

The butt-kicking voleos which have become so popular are for those who want back problems. The twisting you have to do insures it.

One by one:

The butt-kicking voleos which..

Bingo, Graciela once told me that Puppy used to put a lot of coins into his trousers pocket and led boleos with every woman of that class one by one. Afterwards the guys had to rate which one attained the loudest jingling...

..are for those who want back problems..
Indeed, I would not recommend neither of the two to learn the technique of boleos.

..which have become so popular... Not true, any more. Since Neotango declined a few years ago, they get more and more out of fashion over here. Because BsAs lags behind you will experience it later.

od

[Zoopsia59]

The butt-kicking voleos which have become so popular are for those who want back problems. The twisting you have to do insures it.

I'm seeing a different version becoming more popular where you aim for the opposite elbow (ie: left leg kicks towards right elbow) Kicking your own butt really doesn't take much flexibility since it doesn't require lifting the thigh very much, but kicking your opposing raised elbow takes quite a bit of flexibility. (and, no, I can't do it)

That brings me to a question/point I've been wanting to make since this thread started, but haven't had time... Are we all meaning the same thing by "low" and "high" in this discussion?

For some people low definitely means the foot never leaves the floor. For other people, (not necessarily on this forum) "low" means the knees stay together, but the foot raises, and therefore hign means the thigh raises as well (making the foot REALLY high... like maybe aiming for the head in a back inline boleo).

Should we assume for this discussion that we all mean "foot stays on the floor" for "low" and anything that raises the foot more than an inch off the floor is "high"?

Is that the meaning behind the OP's post?

[Zoopsia59]

Man, you totally lost me....


Graciela once told me that Puppy used to put a lot of coins into his trousers pocket and led boleos with every woman of that class one by one. Afterwards the guys had to rate which one attained the loudest jingling...

How does her boleo make coins in his pocket jingle except by how much HE moves when leading it?

Since Neotango declined a few years ago, they get more and more out of fashion over here. Because BsAs lags behind you will experience it later.


Apparently the States lag behind too, because alternative and neo styles are far from "declining"

You guys must be talking about some form of boleo that I'm not visualizing very well. Video, please?

[dchester]

The butt-kicking voleos which have become so popular are for those who want back problems. The twisting you have to do insures it.
Is this a recent fad? When I was in BsAs (a couple years ago), I didn't see any high boleos at all in the milongas. Granted, I didn't go to any of the nuevo milongas/practicas.

In the places I frequent in the US, you see a fair amount of both high and low voleos.

[LoveTango]

Should we assume for this discussion that we all mean "foot stays on the floor" for "low" and anything that raises the foot more than an inch off the floor is "high"?

Is that the meaning behind the OP's post?

Yes, this is what I mean. My low is "foot stays on the floor" and my high still has knees almost together. What I saw was higher.

[AndaBien]

I'm seeing a different version becoming more popular where you aim for the opposite elbow (ie: left leg kicks towards right elbow)...

I know of a woman who dances this way. I wouldn't think of asking her to dance, because that type of movement has no place in the way I dance.

I will admit, she does not lack for partners.

[opendoor]

Man, you totally lost me....

:bkick:


I only wanted to show how much rubbish is going round, and how uncritical people are, in particular concerning argentines

[mshedgehog]

I would say that the high one *can* be a totally natural movement and a surprise and not the follower's choice: and therefore I think that (if you are going to do it at all) it *should* be. The reason I believe it *can* be, is that I once kicked my own bottom with a successfully-led high boleo, and I actually cannot kick my own bottom on purpose and unaided, even if I try. The reason I believe that because it *can* be natural, it therefore *should* be (if you are going to do it at all) is that otherwise you have to switch all sorts of thinking on and off and that is very distracting and destroys the overall logic and integrity of the dance and prevents you doing other things. I don't think faking makes sense in tango, for reasons of technique and aesthetics. But you may not agree that this follows. I also generally think that nearly all the ones I see on the floor (aside from being a bad idea in other ways) are fake, because it's really not at all easy to lead high ones successfully and it is also not common for the follower to be in exactly the right place physically - in any sense.

[chanchan]

I think we could say that the boleo happens when there is a sudden change of direction in the pivot, and the centrifugal force caused by this change is greater than the gravity. This force makes the follower's foot lift. The same phenomenon happens during the boleo of a cow-boy with the "bolas" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas)
If the momentum impressed by the leader is not enough to cause a boleo, or if the follower is blocking her knee, the boleo will simply not happen: this is what someone calls the "low boleo".
If the foot is raising due to the follower's energy, it is a fake boleo.
If the follower pivots extending her leg and keeping her foot at the floor, it is a planeo.

[Dave Bailey]

I think we could say that the boleo happens when there is a sudden change of direction in the pivot
Or a step :)

[sixela]

I think we could say that the boleo happens when there is a sudden change of direction in the pivot, and the centrifugal force caused by this change is greater than the gravity. This force makes the follower's foot lift.

But the follower has some control over how much of the energy transfers to the foot, by controlling the dissociation at the hip and how fast the built up torsion "unwinds" again.

[jantango]

A downtown milonga was closed last Sunday. Some of those dancers invaded Lo de Celia Tango Club. I actually saw a voleo (at knee height) done, something I never get to see in a milonga. Wow! She almost kicked the man seated at the front row table.

[opendoor]

But the follower has some control over how much of the energy transfers to the foot, by controlling the dissociation at the hip and how fast the built up torsion "unwinds" again.

Dont agree, the to and fro movement is lead by the man with the counter movement. The moment the woman gets into it only is the flicking at the angular point. It provides the speed.

[Joe]

The lady can always resist any movement...

[sixela]

Dont agree, the to and fro movement is lead by the man with the counter movement.

Of course. But he leads the to and fro of the top of the follower. How the bottom half reacts depends on how the follower dissociates above the waist. At least I don't actually physically grab the follower below the waist ;).

[pwpulto]

The lady can always resist any movement...

Joe is right, ultimately the lady is always mistress of her own movements!

[Zoopsia59]

The lady can always resist any movement...

Unskilled leaders frequently give far more force than necessary when leading boleos, and resisting can cause pain and counterproductive tension in the follower's muscles. I can't tell you how many times I've been led in boleos (including high inline back boleos) that should have been kept low due to space, but it required considerable effort form me to keep my foot down resulting in painful joints and muscles.

[Zoopsia59]

Joe is right, ultimately the lady is always mistress of her own movements!

No. Not always, as I pointed out above... If she were always the mistress of her movements, then it wouldn't be possible for bad leaders to hurt followers by overly forceful movements.

[pwpulto]

The lady can always resist any movement...

Where I disagree with Joe is in the word "resist". You don't have to resist but just give in to the excessive force, making it disappear in your body. At the open side of the abrazo it is pretty easy to give in, by just releasing the elbow...

[Zoopsia59]

Where I disagree with Joe is in the word "resist". You don't have to resist but just give in to the excessive force, making it disappear in your body. At the open side of the abrazo it is pretty easy to give in, by just releasing the elbow...

I agree on this concept, but I believe it is far more instinctive to create tension to resist movement that seem injurious than to totally relax to absorb it. That's one of the reasons why drunk people often don't get hurt as much slipping and falling on a ice sidewalk as sober people do. They aren't as tense when they hit the ground. (I remember an EMT friend breaking something when he fell on the ice and his exact words were: "I wasn't drunk enough the way I usually am walking home from that bar")

Martial artists and skaters are trained to avoid that kind of automatic tension response, but if you watch the average person at a rink, they go through some pretty wild gyrations to avoid falling and usually fall anyway resulting in far more pain than the experienced skaters who have gotten used to falling and roll through it

The average social tango follower does not have that sort of training in her background, so it is something that must be learned from tango. I've been tangoing for some time now (and skated before that) and I still automatically tense to resist a good bit of the time it comes up. Allowing the "frame" (for lack of a better word) that usually allows you to follow to go all "spaggetti arms noodly" is totally counter-intuitive except for people whose arms are too wishy-washy to follow properly in the first place.

And you still can't just relax your arms, because you might find it pushed back behind your shoulder. The whole upper body has to sorta "go limp"

I found the only consistent way I can deal with the issue is to not dance with certain people.

[AndaBien]

Where I disagree with Joe is in the word "resist". You don't have to resist but just give in to the excessive force, making it disappear in your body. At the open side of the abrazo it is pretty easy to give in, by just releasing the elbow...

I use this method all the time, as a leader. Well, I only use it when I have a partner that thinks my lead comes from my L arm. I think in apilado the whole connection is found in the chest, with the arms doing very little work at all. If I have a partner who wants to push on my L arm, I just let it fly away.

[Dave Bailey]

So, a question on boleos...

As I understand it, for the "straight-legged" linear versions, the movement is from the hip, yes?

Whereas for the "whip" linear or ocho-based boleos, the free leg movement is more below the knee, with the thighs mainly close together?

Does that sound reasonable?

[bordertangoman]

So, a question on boleos...

As I understand it, for the "straight-legged" linear versions, the movement is from the hip, yes?

Whereas for the "whip" linear or ocho-based boleos, the free leg movement is more below the knee, with the thighs mainly close together?

Does that sound reasonable?

No: ;)

if a circular boleo starts with say a sacada; the foot can start moving in an arc over the floor;
the knee joint wont allow for this; as it is a hinge joint ; the hip is a ball and socket joint and this facilitates circular movement.
(Yes I know I'm stating the bleedin' obvious)
eventually the thighs come together; then the knee can take the remaining energy and flick - if the follower allows.

[Dave Bailey]

the knee joint wont allow for this; as it is a hinge joint ; the hip is a ball and socket joint and this facilitates circular movement.
(Yes I know I'm stating the bleedin' obvious)
Err... yes... obvious... :doh: :oops:

eventually the thighs come together; then the knee can take the remaining energy and fllick - if the follower allows.
I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a qualitative difference between straight-leg boleos and the "flick" ones, or whether it's quantitative?

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

[gniksic]

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

I could have misunderstood, but if you are comparing the whole-leg-boleo and the below-the-knee-boleo, I will rephrase what I said before, because I believe it applies to linear boleos, too:

I believe that if the follower's "free" leg is really free and relaxed, then by increasing the energy of the lead we can only increase the final height the follower's leg will reach as a whole. At the end the foot swings some more due to the conservation of angular momentum and the fact that the leg is relaxed. I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free (apart from the obvious lack of space and the potential danger a free leg can pose, but I believe we're all aware of that). It seems to me that it takes effort (=tension) to keep the thighs together during a high-energy boleo, linear or circular. I believe this tension could cause discomfort to both dancers (but not necessarily).

I.e. my question is: is there a special way to "lead" the follower into making a boleo only from below her knee, or is it a matter of her choice and style?

My opinion: her choice, because I only see the whole-leg boleos around here. We've been taught that way and I lead only those (the circular way).

[bastet]

Err... yes... obvious... :doh: :oops:


I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a qualitative difference between straight-leg boleos and the "flick" ones, or whether it's quantitative?

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

To throw a wrench in things, I've learned them (circular boleos) 2 ways.
One way (by teachers I consider more "Nuevo" for lack of a better term) is what one of my teachers calls an "attitude" boleo, where the whole leg is involved and the thighs aren't together. The other, from my traditional style teachers involves keeping the thighs together. There seem to be a lot more what I call Nuevo-ish (no style mongering intended) dancers in Europe, which may answer the question of why you see that style boleo more often over there, perhaps...but that is just one mildly uninformed persons guess.

The upshot of the lead was the same, if I recall, but the styling of the follwer's body/leg reaction was taught differently. I dance them both depending on my leader and the style he is leading, crowd conditions (if allowed at all) though most of my training is with the traditional styling of them and that's how I tend to do them most unless dancing completely open.

[sixela]

To throw a wrench in things, I've learned them (circular boleos) 2 ways.

I've seen other ways as well. To me, the essence of a boleo is the dissociation at the waist, and what happens below is an element of style. Birkit from the Netherlands is someone I've seen doing wildly dissociated boleos where even the feet stayed collected, yet I can vouch for the fact that for the leader they felt exactly like other more regular boleos.

Of course, if you dance strictly with a parallel embrace 100% of the time, you won't be doing what I call boleos, not ever (though you may dance something similar, i.e. an interrupted ocho milonguero, possibly with a punteo as an embellishment). But others may also see that as a "boleo".

[Zoopsia59]

I guess what I'm asking is whether there's a qualitative difference between straight-leg boleos and the "flick" ones, or whether it's quantitative?

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

Do you mean the same from the leader's point of view or the followers? My POV is strictly from the followers:

I think it depends to some extent on the style the follower is employing and how flexible her hips are. I know a follower who does gorgeous boleos of the "kick your opposing elbow" variety, which often (I assume she's led) travel from that position in back to an equally high and beautiful front boleo. In the back position, her thigh is parallel to the floor or higher.

I personally can't do that no matter how I'm led. My thigh does not raise behind my hip because my hips are too stiff. To raise my thigh in back, I must tip my pelvis forward a corresponding amount. If I try to let the thighs and knees come apart for this type of boleo, it just looks half-arsed and sloppy. So I typically keep my knees pretty close together and the raised "whip" is from my knees down. (of course, we know that the whipping action stems from higher up and from the pivot, as you said, but that's not what I think you are asking about)

In other words.. I don't raise my thigh. But other followers frequently do. The amount of energy from the leader doesn't decide that. (luckily around here, leaders don't use excessive energy for that type of boleo, so the follower CAN choose)

It helps that I was first taught to do boleos without raising my foot at all, and the free leg knee tucked in slightly behind the supporting leg knee, keeping them together. I have to say that some of the followers I know who do beautiful high boleos, always do high boleos.. a few of them, I don't think I've ever seen execute a boleo with their foot on the floor, although I know the leaders they dance with do not use force that would prevent them from keeping their leg lower.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "straight-leg" boleo (I assume you don't mean a boleo where the knee never bends, right?). If you are referring to what I would call a back "in-line" boleo, then it does usually involve raising the thigh. Otherwise it really doesn't go anywhere. I rarely get led in these and I often resist them when I am unless I am dancing with a leader I know well, and trust to gauge the available distance (despite his foreshortened view) correctly. Even though my leg won't go high (not like those girls who can kick the back of their head) they can still be a menace if I do them because unfortunately, the leaders most likely to lead this type of boleo unsafely are the same ones who do it with such force that keeping my leg down can hurt me.

Does that help with your question?

[Zoopsia59]

I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free. It seems to me that it takes effort (=tension) to keep the thighs together during a high-energy boleo, linear or circular. I believe this tension could cause discomfort to both dancers (but not necessarily).

I.e. my question is: is there a special way to "lead" the follower into making a boleo only from below her knee, or is it a matter of her choice and style?

My opinion: her choice, because I only see the whole-leg boleos around here. We've been taught that way and I lead only those (the circular way).

See my post.

Personally, I think boleos should be led so that the follower always has the choice of keeping her leg low and even her foot on the floor. I was taught that the follower is responsible for knowing what's happening around her and keeping her own foot down when there isn't space for her to raise it.

I know that's not what others may teach, because then it means that to some extent, the raising of the leg in the boleo is "artificial" (ie: not completely effected by the leader's force) A follower is not supposed to "do" a boleo... it's just supposed to "happen".

However, in real life as opposed to theory, followers shouldn't be led so that the leader is choosing how high her leg goes because there may be factors that he can't account for (like maybe she's not warmed up yet for that head-kicking thing) Keeping my thighs together may be awkward, but not nearly as painful as having someone jerk me this way and that in an attempt to do something "impressive" which results in my leg getting thrown forcefully beyond it's range of flexibility, and my muscles and joints pulled as a result.

I love tango, but I need to be able to walk the next day. Boleos aren't worth limping over.

[Zoopsia59]

To throw a wrench in things, I've learned them (circular boleos) 2 ways.
One way (by teachers I consider more "Nuevo" for lack of a better term) is what one of my teachers calls an "attitude" boleo, where the whole leg is involved and the thighs aren't together. The other, from my traditional style teachers involves keeping the thighs together. There seem to be a lot more what I call Nuevo-ish (no style mongering intended) dancers in Europe, which may answer the question of why you see that style boleo more often over there, perhaps...but that is just one mildly uninformed persons guess.

The upshot of the lead was the same, if I recall, but the styling of the follwer's body/leg reaction was taught differently. I dance them both depending on my leader and the style he is leading, crowd conditions (if allowed at all) though most of my training is with the traditional styling of them and that's how I tend to do them most unless dancing completely open.

Yeah... what she said.

[LoveTango]

I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free (apart from the obvious lack of space and the potential danger a free leg can pose, but I believe we're all aware of that). It seems to me that it takes effort (=tension) to keep the thighs together during a high-energy boleo, linear or circular. I believe this tension could cause discomfort to both dancers (but not necessarily).

I.e. my question is: is there a special way to "lead" the follower into making a boleo only from below her knee, or is it a matter of her choice and style?

My opinion: her choice, because I only see the whole-leg boleos around here. We've been taught that way and I lead only those (the circular way).

Interesting observation about myself: I notice that I do frequently return to "thighs together" position, more frequently than many other followers. "Thighs together" feels more natural to me, as part of the collecting. Could this be why my high boleo is mostly limited to below knees.

[gniksic]

Personally, I think boleos should be led so that the follower always has the choice of keeping her leg low and even her foot on the floor.
...
A follower is not supposed to "do" a boleo... it's just supposed to "happen".
...
However, in real life as opposed to theory, followers shouldn't be led so that the leader is choosing how high her leg goes ...

What I forgot to add is: "I don't understand why the follower would choose to allow only one half of her leg to be free, given enough energy to do that boleo and wanting to do it that way."

Then we are in agreement. I didn't say that leaders lead the boleo. They DON'T, in my opinion (shouldn't, even). They supply the energy for it and give the direction. A follower who choses not to send her leg sky-high just won't do it. And it's fine. But there is nothing that the leader can (or should) do to influence the height, except providing that amount of energy and the impulse/lead.

What changes in such situations with my lead is this: I see a follower doesn't do high boleos the first time I dare to lead one (never during the first dance, as someone already said) -> I reduce the amount of energy I pump into the boleo just so I wouldn't cause her discomfort (that extra energy has to go somewhere; my assumption: into the tension of the muscles around the pelvis and the thighs) -> we continue doing the boleo with her foot on the floor, i.e. what I called the "slow boleo" because it usually is.

So, your situation, being unable to raise your leg high, somehow wasn't clearly covered by my post...

[LoveTango]

My thigh does not raise behind my hip because my hips are too stiff. To raise my thigh in back, I must tip my pelvis forward a corresponding amount.
Same here. :)
If I try to let the thighs and knees come apart for this type of boleo, it just looks half-arsed and sloppy. So I typically keep my knees pretty close together and the raised "whip" is from my knees down.
That's what happened, except I wasn't doing it consciously.

[salthepal]

That is, ignoring any rotation, are they both the same movement but with different levels of energy?

Yes. They both come as a result of a lady's free leg, which should be free from the hip (or above the hip) down. The difference in the lead lies in the upper body.

[Zoopsia59]

Yes. They both come as a result of a lady's free leg, which should be free from the hip (or above the hip) down. The difference in the lead lies in the upper body.

I don't understand your answer.. You answer "yes" to Dave's question of "is it the same movement?" but then go on to say that there is a difference in the upper body in the lead? (which implies it isn't the same movement for the leader to do one or the other) Maybe the heat here is making it hard for me to figure out what you are saying.

You also seem to be ignoring the followers who have responded as to why their leg isn't free from the hip for this move and why it's a matter of personal preference whether the boleo involves the thigh (as in the "attitude" position described by myself and Bastet as something we've seen) or happens from the knee down as quite a few of us do it.

There is no "should" that dictates which style is correct. It really does come down to the follower's style, flexibility, and preference.

[Subliminal]

Then we are in agreement. I didn't say that leaders lead the boleo. They DON'T, in my opinion (shouldn't, even). They supply the energy for it and give the direction. A follower who choses not to send her leg sky-high just won't do it. And it's fine. But there is nothing that the leader can (or should) do to influence the height, except providing that amount of energy and the impulse/lead.

I disagree with this statement. There is a way to lead a low boleo with higher energy.
Maybe it's not taught often, but it can be done.

I also don't get the first statement either. Supplying the energy and the shape IS a form of lead...

[Joe]

the difference in the lead lies partly in the upper body.
ftfy.

[gniksic]

There is a way to lead a low boleo with higher energy. Maybe it's not taught often, but it can be done.
Fine, but it's hard for me to visualize that kind of boleo or the amount of energy required. Do you have a video example by any chance? I would appreciate it. So far I've seen only the kind of HE boleos that I'm describing. That's why I am answering to your next question this way:

Supplying the energy and the shape IS a form of lead...
I lead the change of direction, but not the boleo itself.

My point was: I lead my favorite kind of boleos using a decent amount of energy in a circular movement, cut the movement (=lead a change of direction) and that energy gets released into a circlar, potentially sky-high boleo... but I don't move her leg myself. It is the leg's own inertia that raises it, *IF* her leg is relaxed. By the time her leg starts flyin', I'm going the opposite direction. I have no *active* way of controlling where her foot is, SHE does.

So, put shortly, I meant: "I don't raise her leg myself, but supply enough energy for it to happen." She may choose not to. As I said, I believe this to be valid for this kind of boleo. If there is something I'm missing, I'm ready to learn. (Once again, video samples would be helpful, if possible, just to know what we're talking about.)

[Peaches]

I lead the change of direction, but not the boleo itself.

My point was: I lead my favorite kind of boleos using a decent amount of energy in a circular movement, cut the movement (=lead a change of direction) and that energy gets released into a circlar, potentially sky-high boleo... but I don't move her leg myself. It is the leg's own inertia that raises it, *IF* her leg is relaxed. By the time her leg starts flyin', I'm going the opposite direction. I have no *active* way of controlling where her foot is, SHE does.

So, put shortly, I meant: "I don't raise her leg myself, but supply enough energy for it to happen." She may choose not to. As I said, I believe this to be valid for this kind of boleo. If there is something I'm missing, I'm ready to learn. (Once again, video samples would be helpful, if possible, just to know what we're talking about.)
Your explanation is true of absolutely everything in tango, and therefore makes no sense as to why you feel you don't lead a boleo. Everything that happens is the result of the man supplying the energy and direction and intention and all of the little "signals" that convey what it is he wants...and all of that is at the woman's discretion to do or not, and every movement is actively controlled by HER. This is the same regardless of if it's a boleo or a walk. So, you DO lead boleos. (Unless, of course, she's just going off into auto-boleo mode, which I'm assuming we're not talking about.)

[Zsana]

Hi all,
I am new to the forum in the means of posting, so hello everyone. I only followed up discussions till now, to have an idea of what folks think about the technical and philosophycal aspects of AT, outside of our relatively small tango community in my area. I enjoy your calm debates and reasonings on various topics, sometimes finding verification of my ideas, other times making me thoughtful or even disappointed.

I might be much less experienced a follower with my four years than some others around here, but hey, my skill is just as it is ;) so without the attempt to add technical comment, I would say that leaders can lead low boleos, high boleos or JUST boleos, where there is no instruction on height at all. In that case, I am able to execute any of them comfortably, and I feel both appropriate.
So, to the question whether it is the follower's choice to make high or low boleo, I would say it depends. If the lead offers info on height, than it is not a choice for the follower (unless for some safety/health reasons) and if there is no instruction on height, then I consider it as given for the follower’s choice and free interpretation.

As for low boleo with higher energy, I think amount of energy and direction of energy are two different things. Some leaders truly believe that when they give more impulse, the legs go up. That is just not so. One can give a lot of energy combined with a direction downwards, which will result in a low boleo, naturally.

I would argue on the “inertia thing”. When I truly relax my leg to that point, it would just flap around without any control which is neither nice nor safe, and most likely not good for my balance, either. If the leg’s movement is controlled to make a curve of a boleo, then there is some muscle work included and the leg is not inert any more. Or does the term “controlled inertia” make sense?

And, again, hello everyone :)

[Zoopsia59]

So, put shortly, I meant: "I don't raise her leg myself, but supply enough energy for it to happen." She may choose not to. As I said, I believe this to be valid for this kind of boleo. If there is something I'm missing, I'm ready to learn. (Once again, video samples would be helpful, if possible, just to know what we're talking about.)

I think the confusion is stemming from the way you define "boleo". My impression is that to you, the raising of the leg is the boleo. To some of us, the boleo happens whether or not your foot comes off the floor because the change of direction creates a whipping effect that we, as followers, feel in our BODY.

So when you talk about not leading the boleo, I think you mean you don't lead her leg to lift or not. But to me and some others, there is still a "boleo" even with our foot on the floor. The lifting of the foot is not what we call a "boleo". The whip effect felt all over is the "boleo", hence the possibility of something called a "low boleo".

[Zoopsia59]

There is a way to lead a low boleo with higher energy.
Maybe it's not taught often, but it can be done.


I'm not clear on this... the more energy the leader puts into the lead, the more difficult it is for me to keep my foot down. So I guess no one I know has been taught this rare form of lead.. :confused:

[Peaches]

I'm not clear on this... the more energy the leader puts into the lead, the more difficult it is for me to keep my foot down. So I guess no one I know has been taught this rare form of lead.. :confused:
Yup. We've got one guy around here who manages to lead boleos in such a way that they are almost impossible to abort/resist/keep your foot on the ground. I don't know what in hell he does, but it's effective (not painful, oddly enough). I just wish he had the sense to match his skill so he wouldn't lead the damn things (and other damn things) on most of the floors. Unfortunately, he has been relegated to my Not To Dance With list for this reason.

[Zoopsia59]

Yup. We've got one guy around here who manages to lead boleos in such a way that they are almost impossible to abort/resist/keep your foot on the ground. I don't know what in hell he does, but it's effective (not painful, oddly enough). I just wish he had the sense to match his skill so he wouldn't lead the damn things (and other damn things) on most of the floors. Unfortunately, he has been relegated to my Not To Dance With list for this reason.

That is my experience of "high energy" leads as well. I don't understand how a boleo could be high energy and still have the lead intended to clearly be a "low" boleo as she describe

[Subliminal]

I'm not clear on this... the more energy the leader puts into the lead, the more difficult it is for me to keep my foot down. So I guess no one I know has been taught this rare form of lead.. :confused:

I mentioned it earlier in the thread. The lead involves pressing "down" on the follower's standing leg during the boleo. It feels more like a sweeping motion, like your leg is a tail, swishing back and forth. One of my teachers lead me in it when she taught it to me. It would still be possible to lift your leg with this movement, but you would have to fight the lead to do it. (Btw, I said "pressing" but that doesn't mean the lead has to be strong or uncomfortable for it to happen.)

[Subliminal]

Fine, but it's hard for me to visualize that kind of boleo or the amount of energy required. Do you have a video example by any chance? I would appreciate it.


No, and I'm not sure a video would show you anything either. It's in the lead.

[Zoopsia59]

I mentioned it earlier in the thread. The lead involves pressing "down" on the follower's standing leg during the boleo. It feels more like a sweeping motion, like your leg is a tail, swishing back and forth. One of my teachers lead me in it when she taught it to me. It would still be possible to lift your leg with this movement, but you would have to fight the lead to do it. (Btw, I said "pressing" but that doesn't mean the lead has to be strong or uncomfortable for it to happen.)

Oh, I get it... yes, I've felt this lead, I think. It usually (IME) doesn't have the sudden reversal of direction I associate with a boleo. The change back and forth is smoother so that it is just pivoting back and forth rather than creating a whip effect (again, IME) although the leg might trail the body somewhat in it's change. So i can see how someone might call this a boleo. I don't know that I would however... it probably would depend on how "high energy" it is (as you say)

[Subliminal]

Hmm... Pondering my own words and rethinking. Another factor I should mention is the concentration of the energy in the movement. I tend to think of high energy meaning overall size of the movement. But with a boleo a small amount of energy concentrated in a sharper motion can result in a "high energy" feeling from the follower's perspective. I think the low boleo feeling comes from either spreading this energy out over a larger moment in time, and/or redirecting part of it into the floor. Which I guess from the follower's perspective could be seen as a low energy movement...

I dunno. I'll have to practice it and get back to you. :)

[Subliminal]

Looks like we cross-posted Zoops. :) But I think we agree on the movement, if not what to call it. I consider that a victory for both of us on a tango forum. ;)

[Zoopsia59]

Looks like we cross-posted Zoops. :) But I think we agree on the movement, if not what to call it. I consider that a victory for both of us on a tango forum. ;)

Where's the high-5 smiley when you need it?
Guess this will do: :cheers:

[salthepal]

I don't understand your answer.. You answer "yes" to Dave's question of "is it the same movement?" but then go on to say that there is a difference in the upper body in the lead? (which implies it isn't the same movement for the leader to do one or the other) Maybe the heat here is making it hard for me to figure out what you are saying.

You also seem to be ignoring the followers who have responded as to why their leg isn't free from the hip for this move and why it's a matter of personal preference whether the boleo involves the thigh (as in the "attitude" position described by myself and Bastet as something we've seen) or happens from the knee down as quite a few of us do it.

There is no "should" that dictates which style is correct. It really does come down to the follower's style, flexibility, and preference.

Dave asked if, for the follower, from the leg down, they are the same movement. If the lady's free leg is free, then she shouldn't be doing anything different in the lower body. For a leader, yes, the leads are different. The lead in upper body determines how the lady's leg moves. For a linear boleo (which I rarely, if ever, lead) the man will send the lady away from him then stop that movement, making the leg fly out linearly. For a circular boleo he's going to pivot her in one direction going around her, then reverse that energy, more or less. It's the same send and stop concept, but one is achieved by (sort of) pushing her away then bringing her back; the other is by going around her in different ways.

Re: the ladies' styling choice with her leg, whether she involves her thighs, etc. those are her choices. I'm not ignoring that, but it has nothing to do with the fact that there really is no difference in the leg movement between the linear and circular boleo (aside from the one being linear and the other circular). If you choose to keep your thighs together for a boleo, then you'll do that regardless of the fact that it is linear or circular. Again, I'm not saying that there is a right way or wrong way; I appreciate that each lady's boleo feels different, and I'm not trying to dictate to ladies what they should or shouldn't do (OK, maybe that's a lie. I insist that ladies not kick other people when they do a boleo)

[salthepal]

As to the difference between a high boleo and a low boleo, I can (with the right lady) lead a very soft high boleo and a very sharp and strong low boleo. Such a low boleo doesn't just feel like it's a pivot back and forth, which I do, but don't consider a boleo, because it doesn't quite have that sudden change of direction.

[Joe]

With the right lady, you can lead any and every type of boleo you desire.

[salthepal]

With the right lady, you can lead any and every type of boleo you desire.

:cheers:

[gniksic]

I think the confusion is stemming from the way you define "boleo". My impression is that to you, the raising of the leg is the boleo. To some of us, the boleo happens whether or not your foot comes off the floor because the change of direction creates a whipping effect that we, as followers, feel in our BODY.

So when you talk about not leading the boleo, I think you mean you don't lead her leg to lift or not. But to me and some others, there is still a "boleo" even with our foot on the floor. The lifting of the foot is not what we call a "boleo". The whip effect felt all over is the "boleo", hence the possibility of something called a "low boleo".

Yes, you're right... sorry if I caused confusion. One reason I entered this discussion is a situation when I lead the boleo with a lot of energy, as I described it, but the follower damps the circular motion without an apparent reason and her leg stays on the ground because of that. But that means some of that energy gets reflected back into me, causing some discomfort, as if I had just lost my balance. (physics: something like an impedance mismatch at the interface between two media... LOL)

Salthepal, I agree 100%, but I think you should have put a slightly stronger accent on the "right lady". (wink)

[tangobro]

... I wonder whether it is the follower's choice to make high or low boleo? In other words, when I followed with low boleo, would the leader feel dissapointed since he would have expected high boleo? If it is lead, how can I tell?


As others have said, the technique for leading the high vs low boleo is slightly different. If the lady recognizes which is led she either allows, amplifies or damps down the energy.

In this workshop the instructors taught the students to dance with low boleos and taught the techniques for leading & responding to high boleos so that the ladies would feel & know the difference.

Cristina emphasized that the followers were responsible for keeping the boleos low if the space was not appropriate. Daniel emphasized that the leaders should not lead high boleos if they did not fit the music and the space.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aryOmsz_KYM

in this clip they demonstrated with music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV-RL6Krb-4

If I lead a high boleo it's because I've decided that it fits the music, the mood & the floor conditions. I will not be disappointed, but I may feel the difference in the energy output vs the energy received & sometimes it's a jarring feeling, I think gniksic's impedance mismatch summarizes it well.