Easier to dance with Beginner Lead or Follow?

[ShyDancer]

I recently had a discussion with a friend about the ease (or difficulty!) of dancing with the absolute newbies.
It appears we dont agree and the coversation went around in circles for a good 15 minutes before we agreed to disagree!

Id like to hear your thoughts on who you think has it easier?

Men who dance with beginner ladies or Ladies who dance with beginner Men?




I think its more difficult for a Lady to dance with a beginner lead...for the simple fact the he hasnt yet learnt to lead, I find it so hard trying to dance with a guy who dances the basic step over and over, never leaving the comfort of the closed hold. I hate to back lead and I dont want to make a newbie nervous by doing it, occasionally I try to explain how to lead and alemana or a fan but then they get confused by what their feet should be doing :lol:

A guy can lead a beginner lady into a few figures and even if she doesnt know them he can reel her back in and start over. I also think girls pick things up quicker because they dont have the added pressure of having to lead..

[Danish Guy]

A guy can lead a beginner lady into a few figures and even if she doesnt know them he can reel her back in and start over. I also think girls pick things up quicker because they dont have the added pressure of having to lead..

Agreed. Then you can repeat those simple figures some times till she got it.

But you still have to compensate for the arm tension. Let her understand that I decide when she turns. Keep her on the beat, and wait until we got some connection before leading anything. Then see how se respond to some simple paterns.

[Sagitta]

I think its more difficult for a Lady to dance with a beginner lead...for the simple fact the he hasnt yet learnt to lead, I find it so hard trying to dance with a guy who dances the basic step over and over, never leaving the comfort of the closed hold. I hate to back lead and I dont want to make a newbie nervous by doing it, occasionally I try to explain how to lead and alemana or a fan but then they get confused by what their feet should be doing :lol:


Interesting. What's wrong with the basic step? I've danced with a follower who was so terrified that the only thing that I could do with her was the basic step in closed position. I've danced with more then one beginner follower who is just starting out and just wants to do the basic for the entire song. We all start somewhere, and once we have gained confidence we move on. I actually don't see a problem with dancing the basic over and over and over again with a beginner. I don't see why any experienced follower should have a problem with the reverse situation. :?

[Sarah]

I've danced both lead and follow with a lot of beginners, and I find that the ease or otherwise of dancing with them depends mostly on how relaxed the beginner is. Someone who is able to not worry and will let me `rescue' them mid-dance (get them back on the right foot and in time with the music) is much more enjoyable to dance with than someone who freezes up with nerves and stops dancing eveytime they make a mistake.

Cheers
Sarah

[ShyDancer]

Interesting. What's wrong with the basic step? I've danced with a follower who was so terrified that the only thing that I could do with her was the basic step in closed position. I've danced with more then one beginner follower who is just starting out and just wants to do the basic for the entire song. We all start somewhere, and once we have gained confidence we move on. I actually don't see a problem with dancing the basic over and over and over again with a beginner. I don't see why any experienced follower should have a problem with the reverse situation. :?

One dance wouldnt be so bad. I know we all started there and I dont really have issues with helping a beginner out, but the thing is at my studio you usually stay with the one partner for the 2 or 3 (sometimes 4) songs for every dance. So doing step, replace, chasse for 10-15 minutes can really get on ones nerves.

[Chris Stratton]

So doing step, replace, chasse for 10-15 minutes can really get on ones nerves.

I think it would actually be quite a challenge to find a dancer who couldn't benefit from 15 minutes drilling the technique of a basic action. There are so many details to think about and experiment with, and the more you learn the more aspects you realize you still haven't explored.

But if it's being lead in such a way that you can't use it as technique practice time, then I understand the frustration. This may be a big leader-follower difference - I've been amazed at how much freedom there is to explore technical details while leading relative beginners.

Is there a way to restructure things so it's only one song between partner changes?

(Acutally, let me take some of the early part of this back - I do sometimes feel like there are dances in which I could not benefit from a technique practice, because I feel like I don't know enough about what I'm supposed to be doing to make usefull explorations - to state it plainly, I don't really know how to do the basic, just how to fake it on a social floor)

[MacMoto]

I actually don't see a problem with dancing the basic over and over and over again with a beginner. I don't see why any experienced follower should have a problem with the reverse situation. :?
Beginner leaders who do the basic over and over are not a problem for me (luckily we don't have a "3-4 dance rule"). They may be terrified but are usually open to your help. If the guy is apologetic about not knowing anything else, I sometimes teach him how to lead an underarm turn or something.

My problem is with guys who don't know the basic step, are not interested in learning to dance at all, but still want to do what other dancers are doing. They tend to try to put you into wild turns even though they don't know how to lead them, and if you don't move as expected (e.g., because the timing is wrong and you are on the wrong foot, or the guy gives a lead for one direction but wants you to go the other way), they just push you and pull your arm out of shoulder in the process. They also have a tendency to take up a lot of space and be a dancefloor hazard, and it's no fun trying to stop your partner backing into another couple's space when he's busy trying to detach your limb from your body. :evil:

[lundasalsa]

I am a salsero, but I can't compare leading/following since I've never danced as a follower.

I can lead most beginners, but I've to restrict myself to (Cuba style) inside turns, enchuflas, and caminala-turns and I'm prepared to adjust very rapidly if the girl (I've never danced with guys as a follower, no sense to use gender-neutral wordings here) does something unexpected, such as turning counter-clockwise instead of clockwise. Heck, I once even leaded a blind newbie-woman that way. :-) I try to see dancing with newbies as a challenge in learning to lead clearly, even though I'd prefer dancing with girls from my class that have the same repertoire.

But then there's another issue. How persistent should I be if I ask a beginner for a dance who at first says "no, I can't really dance"? With a bit of persuasion, the newbie will usually agree for a dance. Sometimes the newbie knows the basic, sometimes she has never danced salsa before. And worst, sometimes she freezes halfway every turn and cries "I can't, I can't", while the only real problem is that she stopped moving.

So, is it better-mannered if I take the first "no" for an answer (and save myself a possibly boring dance) or persuade her to overcome her shyness/insecureness? What are they doing standing besides the dance floor in a salsa club anyway if they don't want to dance?

[Sagitta]

But then there's another issue. How persistent should I be if I ask a beginner for a dance who at first says "no, I can't really dance"? With a bit of persuasion, the newbie will usually agree for a dance. Sometimes the newbie knows the basic, sometimes she has never danced salsa before. And worst, sometimes she freezes halfway every turn and cries "I can't, I can't", while the only real problem is that she stopped moving.

So, is it better-mannered if I take the first "no" for an answer (and save myself a possibly boring dance) or persuade her to overcome her shyness/insecureness? What are they doing standing besides the dance floor in a salsa club anyway if they don't want to dance?

As persistant as you want to be. It depends on my mood and where I am. :)

[cl5814]

But then there's another issue. How persistent should I be if I ask a beginner for a dance who at first says "no, I can't really dance"? With a bit of persuasion, the newbie will usually agree for a dance. Sometimes the newbie knows the basic, sometimes she has never danced salsa before. And worst, sometimes she freezes halfway every turn and cries "I can't, I can't", while the only real problem is that she stopped moving.

So, is it better-mannered if I take the first "no" for an answer (and save myself a possibly boring dance) or persuade her to overcome her shyness/insecureness? What are they doing standing besides the dance floor in a salsa club anyway if they don't want to dance?

As persistant as you want to be. It depends on my mood and where I am. :)

What is the ratio of followers to leaders ? If there is lack of either one, you may want to use persuasion... but you figured that out already.
A big plus for you is that someone might ask you for a dance, since they see that you are willing to dance with anyone..... it might work in your favor, albeit in the long run.
I agree what are they doing next to the dance floor if they don't want to dance !

[lundasalsa]

So, is it better-mannered if I take the first "no" for an answer (and save myself a possibly boring dance) or persuade her to overcome her shyness/insecureness? What are they doing standing besides the dance floor in a salsa club anyway if they don't want to dance?
What is the ratio of followers to leaders ? If there is lack of either one, you may want to use persuasion...
Again this politically correct follow/lead terminology. :) Sweden is quite focused on equal rights for men and women, but I very rarely notice people, except for teachers, switching gender roles on the dance floor. Anyway, there are usually way more women than men here, so I can afford to accept a "no". On the other hand it just doesn't feel good to be rejected for whatever reason.
A big plus for you is that someone might ask you for a dance, since they see that you are willing to dance with anyone.....
Never looked at it from that point of view. :)
I agree what are they doing next to the dance floor if they don't want to dance !
Sometimes, when it gets late (2am or so), more than half of the girls standing there claims to be tired. :( If you're tired, take a chair, it's not good for our (the guys) ego to be turned down three times in a row for each song.

Of course I don't want to believe that being turned down has something to do with me :)

[salsachinita]

Being a purist follower, I can only speak for myself.

I find that there's very little I can do, if my lead has no idea whatsoever. Sure, you can take him aside to show the basic step, but it's not really a class situation, therefore inappropriate in most cases.

If the leader has the basics & a few patterns, I can follow to a point that he should be able to feel comfortable enough with what he already knows.

If he's off beat, I can also influence to some degree to help him back on beat (really depending on the individual).

If he only knows a few moves but perfectly on beat, then I'd be very happy to dance with him a few more times. If he's open to me, I might be able to work on his musicality & connection......and actually have fun!

This is an old thread that's relevant: http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=27958&highlight=#27958

The post I have in mind in particular is the one written by Taita, our resident lurker. Located halfway down page one 8) .

[cl5814]

So, is it better-mannered if I take the first "no" for an answer (and save myself a possibly boring dance) or persuade her to overcome her shyness/insecureness? What are they doing standing besides the dance floor in a salsa club anyway if they don't want to dance?
What is the ratio of followers to leaders ? If there is lack of either one, you may want to use persuasion...
Again this politically correct follow/lead terminology. :) Sweden is quite focused on equal rights for men and women, but I very rarely notice people, except for teachers, switching gender roles on the dance floor. Anyway, there are usually way more women than men here, so I can afford to accept a "no". On the other hand it just doesn't feel good to be rejected for whatever reason.
A big plus for you is that someone might ask you for a dance, since they see that you are willing to dance with anyone.....
Never looked at it from that point of view. :)
I agree what are they doing next to the dance floor if they don't want to dance !
Sometimes, when it gets late (2am or so), more than half of the girls standing there claims to be tired. :( If you're tired, take a chair, it's not good for our (the guys) ego to be turned down three times in a row for each song.

Of course I don't want to believe that being turned down has something to do with me :)

Just look at it this way, it is their loss for turning you down. Maybe in 6 months or a year from now, when you are even a better dancer than currently, they will regret turning you down, since you might be such a popular dancer by then (maybe you are already) that you can pick and choose whom you want to dance with. Then they might regret turning you down...... Since you have shown that you would just ask someone else to dance, you have proved to yourself that it doesn't affect you....... not enough to make you sit out in any case.

[lundasalsa]

Just look at it this way, it is their loss for turning you down. Maybe in 6 months or a year from now, when you are even a better dancer than currently, they will regret turning you down, since this makes it more unlikely that you will ask them again.
Well, I've read similar stories about this issue in old postings here on DF and it makes sense, but... I don't have an iron memory for faces. :shock: So, in order to get on my blacklist/greylist, you have to turn me down a few more times or insult me in some other way. I once asked a girl who accepted the offer but then during the whole 10-minute DJ-mix (why???? Or maybe it just felt like eternity) she was following off-beat, only looking to the crowd on the side, for a lover/friend/whatever ("Looking for someone?" - "Oh, no" yeah right). Even a couple of 8-turn spins couldn't make her stop doing that (I would have been lying on the floor and puking all over the place). :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: She is the only one on my greylist so far. :evil:

[Vin]

In my experience it depends alot more on the person rather than if they are a leader or follow. Or even a beginner versus non-beginner.
I have danced with some beginners that are completely relaxed and follow beautifully. On the other hand I have danced with some non-beginners where I feel like I am dancing with someone who is completely out of control on the dance floor.
To me a deciding factor is whether or not I am dancing with someone who really cares whether they dance well or not. The women I know that do care whether they dance well or not tend to be much easier to dance with. Whereas some women don't put as much effort into it and it ends up being next to impossible to dance with them, even if one would consider them more advanced dancers.
I think it is probably likewise for leads.

[Sagitta]

In my experience it depends alot more on the person rather than if they are a leader or follow. Or even a beginner versus non-beginner.
I have danced with some beginners that are completely relaxed and follow beautifully. On the other hand I have danced with some non-beginners where I feel like I am dancing with someone who is completely out of control on the dance floor.
To me a deciding factor is whether or not I am dancing with someone who really cares whether they dance well or not. The women I know that do care whether they dance well or not tend to be much easier to dance with. Whereas some women don't put as much effort into it and it ends up being next to impossible to dance with them, even if one would consider them more advanced dancers.
I think it is probably likewise for leads.

Ditto!!

[Chris Stratton]

I was filling in at an unbalanced beginner (ballroom) tango class the other night, and we were working on the reverse turn-lady outside. Despite giving an absolutely cannot miss it lead for the outside partner step, about half the women would make a desperate effort to reach their right foot around to get it between my feet - they were too concerned about getting things right to simply feel where that step was being directed. But as only a minority of the guys in class knew where their partner's feet should go well enough to actually lead that, it's quite understandable that the girls put a lot of thought into the figures rather than simply following.

I'm not yet sure what the lesson of this observation is...

[ShyDancer]

I was filling in at an unbalanced beginner (ballroom) tango class the other night, and we were working on the reverse turn-lady outside. Despite giving an absolutely cannot miss it lead for the outside partner step, about half the women would make a desperate effort to reach their right foot around to get it between my feet - they were too concerned about getting things right to simply feel where that step was being directed. But as only a minority of the guys in class knew where their partner's feet should go well enough to actually lead that, it's quite understandable that the girls put a lot of thought into the figures rather than simply following.

I'm not yet sure what the lesson of this observation is...


I had that problem. It was because I was told as an absolute beginner that "the lady steps between the mans feet" with nothing to suggest that there might be figures that required me to dance outside the man. So I was forever trying to get my foot between the mans on every step :? Thankfully a teacher picked me up on it one night, and explained that I should be moving in a straight line when being led in that way and that I should be dancing outside my partner. He fixed it for me in 2 minutes.
These ladies could have the same problem.

[Chris Stratton]

They were told the step was different when it was presented... but knowledge like that takes a while to sink in. Plus it's not really meaningfull for either partner - the girl really shouldn't be thinking about it, and the guy should be leading a step into CBMP aka outside partner shape (a concept that was considered too advanced to explain) rather than worrying about her foot. So really, the only usefull part of knowing that it's 'outside partner' is to realize it's not wrong when she steps there...

One could of course suggest that the lady inline or non-passing version should be taught instead... but that's setting them up for social dancing disaster since 'everybody' does passing lady-outside unless they are either (a) good enough to actually lead and follow the difference or (b) doing a fixed competition routine

[huey]

Id like to hear your thoughts on who you think has it easier?...

...Men who dance with beginner ladies or Ladies who dance with beginner Men?


Here in Britain, the BBC have been running a popular TV show called Strictly Come Dancing (details below)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/strictlycomedancing/

The idea is each couple comprises a professional dancer and a celebrity, and the different couples compete for votes. I only saw one episode myself, but a female celebrity and a male pro won the contest.

My own feeling is that beginner leads have the hardest job.

[MacMoto]

Here in Britain, the BBC have been running a popular TV show called Strictly Come Dancing (details below)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/strictlycomedancing/

The idea is each couple comprises a professional dancer and a celebrity, and the different couples compete for votes. I only saw one episode myself, but a female celebrity and a male pro won the contest.

My own feeling is that beginner leads have the hardest job.
I wondered about that too, Huey. I can't comment on the programme since I only saw a tiny little bit of it, but I understand that the final was between a female celeb and a male celeb? Since it's generally agreed that the leader has a harder time learning to dance at the beginner stage, I wonder if judges made some allowance for male celebrities?

[Sagitta]

How about this a beginner follower who knows the ledaer part well? Or a beginner ledaer who knows the followers part well. Or a beginner follower/leader with experience with other dances. All these things make a difference. Don't they? And theer are plenty more, aren't there? :? :)

[squirrel]

I am a follower who knows the part of the leader... that helps a lot while I teach, but it also helps while I dance :)

Still, at times I backlead :)

[Chris Stratton]

How about this a beginner follower who knows the ledaer part well?

Probably not very usefull, and likely to lead to counterproductive attitudes.

But a beginner follower who knows how to lead as a concept, rather than in terms of figures, might just possibly have an idea of what the leader she is trying to follow needs from her.

Or a beginner ledaer who knows the followers part well.

This could be really usefull information, if he dances himself in a way to achieve her part. But quite often, he'll just stand there and yell at her for not doing her part - rather than lead her into her part.

Or a beginner follower/leader with experience with other dances.

Mixed bag. Good for the initial understanding and confidence in the idea of dancing, bad for the tendancy to assume you arleady know things, which leads to ignoring critical details that are different (or also misunderstood in the known dance)

[Sagitta]

Interesting responses Chris, because I'm a beginner follower who knows the leader's part fairly well for basics in some dances, plus I find that my experience in a variety of dances actually gives me a heads up on others with less experience.

Yesterday night there was an excess of leaders in zydeco class so I volunteered myself as a follower. I actually helped someone lead me correctly from open to closed position, and my leading experience helped. Here I also found that my experience in salsa helped. At the same time I was aware of critical issues such as posture and frame that I didn't necessarily follow all the time. This wasn't because of an attitude issue, or ignorance, but simply because I was experimenting. Trying to develop some "flava" and figuring out how to make the dance mine. The salsa experience helped with open position dancing, experiementing, coming up with cool new ideas... :)

[squirrel]

Interesting Sagitta...
And Chris, I think you are more or less right!
But, my leading experience helped me explain my students how to lead... and also made me enjoy less dancing socially, 'cause I instantly spot the errors of my partners!
I don't know... I usually want to know both parts... :) It helps me have a better understanding of how the others feel
And if they are interested, I also teach my students both roles!