Personal space

[pygmalion]

I have a real need for my personal space in my non-dancing life. I'm American in the extreme -- meaning, I need people to keep their distance... at least a few feet of it. LOL.

But when it comes to dance, I have no souch problem. Come one, come all. I can pretty physically close to total strangers with no problem. It's as if my need for personal space is suspended. Either that, or my definition is completely different for dance. As in, I need three inches of space, rather than three feet. I'm weird, I know. :roll:

Do you see the same thing? Have personal space issues ever affected your dancing?

[Sagitta]

I prefer 0 inches!! :)

Personal space has affected my dancing primarily through my lack of familiarity with it. One has to move a little differently if one is 2 inches from someone compared to when you are 15 inches from that same person.

[peachexploration]

I have a real need for my personal space in my non-dancing life. I'm American in the extreme -- meaning, I need people to keep their distance... at least a few feet of it. LOL.

But when it comes to dance, I have no souch problem. Come one, come all. I can pretty physically close to total strangers with no problem. It's as if my need for personal space is suspended. Either that, or my definition is completely different for dance. As in, I need three inches of space, rather than three feet. I'm weird, I know. :roll:

Do you see the same thing? Have personal space issues ever affected your dancing?

No Pygmalion. You're not wierd at all. I can totally relate. In Salsa, I have absolutely no problem with personal space until I get a karate chop across the back. :roll: Anyways, I think for me it's giving myself (or others) permission to come near. I don't know. Maybe it's being in control or maybe moreso the lack of trust for others, I've met some wierd people in days here on earth. :lol: :lol: Anyways, I know what you mean. :)

[Pacion]

This is an interesting one Pygamlion. As Peach said, for me also, it is like giving permission for that person to come into your/my 'personal space.

Same thing with a crowded bus or train. Your space boundaries reduce in such circumstances but if it was an empty bus and someone came really close to you, you/I would feel threatened. So, it is adjusting for the surrounds.

Now, with dancing, there is 'permission' to enter the 'personal space' perhaps because the brain recognises that it is practicularly impossible to dance at opposite ends of the room if it is just the two of you. :lol: That said, some people (guys?) still try and invade that space they have been given permission/access to and whereas they were given permission to be within 1 inch of your knees, they try and melt his and your knees together. :roll:

[Sabor]

i invade personal space when i likey.. and it works just finey :mrgreen:

[lily]

I read somewhere that how much personal space someone needs depends a lot on whether he or she was born and raised in the country or city. I don't know if it's true or not but I was born in a village and I do sometimes find that people stand too close to me when we're talking.

As far as dancing is concerned, I have noticed that the rules I have for personal space are completely different. Even when I'm in a crowded bus or train I can't stand a stranger getting so close to me that we touch. When I'm dancing touching is obviously necessary and therefore ok! Besides, even if I don't know the guy I'm dancing with, somehow he seems less of a stranger (or a threat?) than the man on the train 8)

[squirrel]

:) I need personal space too... but it seems this personal space has decreased eversince I started dancing... I hated kissing my friends when we met... now I do it all the time! I hated being touched by people (except for the boyfriend :roll: ) now I don't even notice... :) I guess dancing changed me...

[Sakura]

Normally, I have no real issues with personal space. Growing up with my brother and me wrestling/trying to beat the living daylights out of each other, as well as my apparently feeling the need to say high to everyone, my "personal space" is almost non-existent. Also to be thrown into the mix is that I have a separate, very close-knit group of friends who are essentially family (I can actually get away with saying I'm their sister!), so even with the guys, we can just come over, sit on each other, and it's all okay. :D

However, that's not to say that I haven't had that handful of people that fall into the, "Get away from me. Get away from me now. If you don't move right now, I'm gonna make you!" group. *shudders* They were/are scary people. So let's just not talk about them. *bright, fake smile* :roll: :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[pygmalion]

SK. You crack me up.

Yes, I think a lot of it has to do with family upbringing and/or culture. My family is only touchy/feely with children. So, once I got to be around nine, the hugs rapidly diminished. The funny thing is that, with close friends or boyfriends or whatever, I'm still extremely touchy/feely. With dance partners, I'm not touchy feely, but close doesn't bother me at all. "Strangers," however, had better keep their distance. :shock: :lol:

[squirrel]

I also have a brother and used to fight with him all the time... still, I prefer to keep the distance, even though when it comes to boyfriends I'm extremely touchy/feely as pygmalion put it :lol: :lol:

[Sabor]

ok,, so lets make a list of the 'touchy/feelies' so we can all avoid them :lol: :lol:

till now we have:

Sakura
Pygmalion
Squirrel

feel free to add..

[pygmalion]

:tongue:

Nobody I've met so far seems to mind. :mrgreen: :lol:

[lily]

What I find strange is that the same touch from the same person at different times will have a completely different effect on me. One guy I know well, like and dance with regularly recently put his arm around my waist in a friendly, protective gesture as we were moving through a crowd. I felt myself flinch and move away from him yet when we're dancing I have no problem with his hands being all over me. Well, not quite, but you know what I mean :lol:

[Sakura]

:wink: Glad to keep the laughs coming, Jenn! (*blinks* Hrrm, you don't mind if I call you Jenn, do you? Or Wouldst thee rather I keep thine secret identity... *blinks* Secret... Too late! Eep!)

ok,, so lets make a list of the 'touchy/feelies' so we can all avoid them :lol: :lol:

till now we have:

Sakura
Pygmalion
Squirrel

feel free to add..

Hey! *laughs* Someone has to be added to the family list before I'll just go plop down on them or vice versa!

'Sides! You couldn't avoid us, even if you wanted to! You love us too much to do that! :lol: :lol: 8)

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Sabor]

I felt myself flinch and move away from him yet when we're dancing I have no problem with his hands being all over me.

:shock: and then what happened!?

[lily]

I felt myself flinch and move away from him yet when we're dancing I have no problem with his hands being all over me.

:shock: and then what happened!?

After I flinched or after his hands were all over me? :wink:

[Sabor]

'Sides! You couldn't avoid us, even if you wanted to! You love us too much to do that!

love has nothing to do with it .. when it comes to touchy/feelies! i run first, think later :lol:

[MacMoto]

What I find strange is that the same touch from the same person at different times will have a completely different effect on me. One guy I know well, like and dance with regularly recently put his arm around my waist in a friendly, protective gesture as we were moving through a crowd. I felt myself flinch and move away from him yet when we're dancing I have no problem with his hands being all over me. Well, not quite, but you know what I mean :lol:
I know what you mean and I think I'd react similarly. I suppose Pacion's "permission" thing applies, in that the guy has been given permission to enter your space during dancing but not in other occasions, so him touching you in a non-dancing situation feels like invasion.

Having said that, I think I have become much more touchy/feely than I used to since I started dancing regularly. It's as if I have been desensitised to people coming into my personal space.

[Sabor]

touchy/feelies list update:

Sakura
Pygmalion
Squirrel
Lily
MacMoto

... yikes!

[pygmalion]

No offense, Sabor, but, other than when dancing, you and I would have to get awfully friendly before I got to the touchy/feely stage with you. So, at least for the moment, your sensibilities are safe with me. :wink: 8)

[lily]

I have a friend who definitely wouldn't be on the list. She seems to have no personal space or touch rules, it's amazing. We were out walking one evening when this old drunk man started to chat her up. He was harmless enough but not very pleasant looking (or nice smelling!) She spoke politely to him and we started to walk away when he suddenly ran up behind her and kissed her on the back of her neck (she was wearing a halter neck top and so her back was bare). I would have been really grossed out but she just smiled and waved goodbye to him.

I guess that different people consider different parts of their bodies off limits to different people. While we're dancing I think that those limits, like our personal space, are moved. But even when dancing there are places that would be off limits to our dance partners and the guy who gropes me too many times 'by accident' doesn't get another dance!

[Sagitta]

I have no problem with personal space in general as long as rules of basic hygiene are followed. I've had strangers hug me, do the kiss on cheek thing...

[lily]

I have no problem with personal space in general as long as rules of basic hygiene are followed. I've had strangers hug me, do the kiss on cheek thing...

I live in France so I've had to get used to being kissed on the cheek by complete strangers :lol:

[pygmalion]

Absolutely. On my trips to West Africa, I've spent much of the time feeling ... invaded. People there seem to have no concept of personal ... anything. They come close, really close, and the space-conscious American in me was panicking while they were perfectly fine. *shrug* Different people, different cultures, different situations -- personal space adjusts, I guess.

[jon]

A reliable way to freak (at least) Americans out is to get in an elevator and keep facing the rear instead of turning around.

[lily]

Absolutely. On my trips to West Africa, I've spent much of the time feeling ... invaded. People there seem to have no concept of personal ... anything. They come close, really close, and the space-conscious American in me was panicking while they were perfectly fine. *shrug* Different people, different cultures, different situations -- personal space adjusts, I guess.

Yes, I imagine culture has a great deal to do with it too. I read about a study done where the number of times 2 friends having a conversation touched each other was counted. I can't remember the exact results but I was not surprised to learn that the 2 English men barely made any physical contact and the Spanish men touched each other on the hands, arms and shoulders many times.

[lily]

A reliable way to freak (at least) Americans out is to get in an elevator and keep facing the rear instead of turning around.

That could be funny. Best done, I should imagine, in an elevator with a mirror so that you can watch their reactions :lol:

[etchuck]

Hmm.... I am not a person who likes a lot of touching contact. Dancing is in my opinion the aberration in my life. I guess part of it is because I don't have a significant person in my life (I'm not including family, but we weren't that touchy either), and I don't usually do anything to invite anyone into my personal space otherwise... although I guess my cat gets enough brushing and petting during the day to make up for it. I guess would I like someone who is? I suppose... but unless it's warranted I usually feel rather uncomfortable. I can't explain why.

[Sakura]

I felt myself flinch and move away from him yet when we're dancing I have no problem with his hands being all over me.

:shock: and then what happened!?

And the Enquiring Minds appear! :D :wink:

SK :kitty:

[Sakura]

A reliable way to freak (at least) Americans out is to get in an elevator and keep facing the rear instead of turning around.

That could be funny. Best done, I should imagine, in an elevator with a mirror so that you can watch their reactions :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: Reminds me about something I heard was on some, "Fun things to do in an Elevator," list!

Go into an elevator, stand in a corner, facing the wall. This is preferably done in a *very* crowded elevator. Do not speak or make eye contact with anyone else in the elevator. When someone touches you to make sure you're okay or brushes you by accident, pull away very quickly, clutching whatever part of you that was touched and hiss/shriek, "BAD TOUCH! BAAAD TOUCH!"

:twisted: :twisted: Am looking forward to doing this someday...

SK :kitty:

(PS- Hi lily! I know you've probably already been welcomed here to the DF, but I hadn't seen you around until very recently, so I thought I'd extend my hellos!

:D Another Parisian I could hope to meet up with when our class takes its French Trip next summer! 8) )

[dancin_feet]

I'm not a touchy feely sort of person, normally. But when it comes to dancing my personal space goes down to zero! Though I have noticed that I am no longer uncomfortable sitting shoulder to shoulder with someone say on the bus since I started dancing. It's opening me up to that touchy feely world, and while I may never dive straight in, I'm no longer standing outside the fence (if you know what I mean). :wink:

[Sakura]

It's opening me up to that touchy feely world, and while I may never dive straight in, I'm no longer standing outside the fence (if you know what I mean). :wink:

*wink, wink; nudge, nudge; know what I mean??* :wink: Gotcha!

SK :kitty:

[lily]

(PS- Hi lily! I know you've probably already been welcomed here to the DF, but I hadn't seen you around until very recently, so I thought I'd extend my hellos!

:D Another Parisian I could hope to meet up with when our class takes its French Trip next summer! 8) )

Hi and thanks Sakura :D I joined up a while ago but it's true that I'd been really busy until recently. I'm able to come to DF much more these days 8)

Actually, I'm English (unless living in France for 13 years makes me Parisian - maybe it does a little...) But I'd love to meet up with you when you're here :D . You say next summer - does that mean 2004 or 2005? Hopefully I'll be living in NY by summer 2005 but beautiful old Paris will still be here 8)

[pygmalion]

It's opening me up to that touchy feely world, and while I may never dive straight in, I'm no longer standing outside the fence (if you know what I mean). :wink:

Yes. I think I understand. 8)

[Sakura]

Hi and thanks Sakura :D I joined up a while ago but it's true that I'd been really busy until recently. I'm able to come to DF much more these days 8)

Actually, I'm English (unless living in France for 13 years makes me Parisian - maybe it does a little...) But I'd love to meet up with you when you're here :D . You say next summer - does that mean 2004 or 2005? Hopefully I'll be living in NY by summer 2005 but beautiful old Paris will still be here 8)

I'd say 13 years does a bit for making you Parisian! :D Just a little bit. =^_~=

We'd be coming in June 2005, 2nd or 3rd week. I'd hope I wouldn't miss you! I think it'd be cool to meet up with another DF member on a trip!

SK :kitty:

[lily]

Hi and thanks Sakura :D I joined up a while ago but it's true that I'd been really busy until recently. I'm able to come to DF much more these days 8)

Actually, I'm English (unless living in France for 13 years makes me Parisian - maybe it does a little...) But I'd love to meet up with you when you're here :D . You say next summer - does that mean 2004 or 2005? Hopefully I'll be living in NY by summer 2005 but beautiful old Paris will still be here 8)

I'd say 13 years does a bit for making you Parisian! :D Just a little bit. =^_~=

We'd be coming in June 2005, 2nd or 3rd week. I'd hope I wouldn't miss you! I think it'd be cool to meet up with another DF member on a trip!

SK :kitty:

Well maybe I am just a tiny bit Parisian :D

I probably will miss you though if you'll not be here until summer 2005. You're right though, it'd be really cool to meet up with members of DF. I get the feeling that some people know each other and have already met, but it'd be cool to have a Dance Forums Annual Dance or something that we could all go to :P :idea:

[Sakura]

Well maybe I am just a tiny bit Parisian :D

I probably will miss you though if you'll not be here until summer 2005. You're right though, it'd be really cool to meet up with members of DF. I get the feeling that some people know each other and have already met, but it'd be cool to have a Dance Forums Annual Dance or something that we could all go to :P :idea:

But only a little. :wink:

That's too bad! It would be neat! There's some sort of "The Plan!" that gets brought up occasionally... There are about a million of them; but one has to do with a Dance Forums Dance or Cruise. We'd all love to do it so much! But the problem is that we're ALL over! So finances can sorta take out attendance.... Maybe one day we'll get it!

SK :kitty:

[Sagitta]

Talking of personal space here is an observation from latin dancing yesterday night. I suddenly found myself so much more comfortable in close position, almost AT position!! :) I just decided to try it out and all the people whom I usually dance with were like, Huh!! :shock: :) If anyone has issues with personal space try out AT. And do lots of it.

Another observation on personal space, dancing etc. In ballroom, salsa etc I notice that it is the lower half that tends to meld. In AT it is the upper bodies. Does this make a difference to any of you? Personal space upper or lower?

[lily]

Does this make a difference to any of you? Personal space upper or lower?

Mmm, interesting, a good question. I'm not sure really as in Swing I guess we don't usually get so close as you do in AT. I did feel a bit uncomfortable though in a Balboa class where the teacher insisted that we all danced chest squashed to chest :? (although this is how it's supposed to be danced :D )

From my beginner class experience of Tango I'd say that I need more upper personal space than lower. It didn't bother me to get close in fact it was rather annoying dancing with the guys who insisted on watching their feet and so couldn't get close enough! Having said that, I felt a bit odd dancing Zouk once. That was really rather close and the guy was really rather gorgeous and his girlfriend was really rather standing right next to the dancefloor watching us :? :oops: :shock: :D

Maybe it's a question of the guy. If he's just dancing and needs to get close in order to lead me, then it's fine. But if I feel that he's taking advantage of the situation it kinda grosses me out.

[Chris Stratton]

Another observation on personal space, dancing etc. In ballroom, salsa etc I notice that it is the lower half that tends to meld. In AT it is the upper bodies. Does this make a difference to any of you? Personal space upper or lower?

I think the close-tops approach of AT is more instinctive - it can look like hugging someone while dancing with them. Wheras the bigger top of ballroom is functional in moderation, or showy in extreme. By functional I mean that I don't think an AT hold would work very well for something like say quickstep, wheras a ballroom hold can work for lead-follow tango.

[DWise1]

Does this make a difference to any of you? Personal space upper or lower?

Mmm, interesting, a good question. I'm not sure really as in Swing I guess we don't usually get so close as you do in AT. I did feel a bit uncomfortable though in a Balboa class where the teacher insisted that we all danced chest squashed to chest :? (although this is how it's supposed to be danced :D )
It took me a long time to get comfortable with Balboa (and I'm a guy). But in fact it's the girls who complain about the guys not holding them close enough, because they need that connection to feel the lead.

Maybe it's a question of the guy. If he's just dancing and needs to get close in order to lead me, then it's fine. But if I feel that he's taking advantage of the situation it kinda grosses me out.
I think that's the bottom line. By engaging in the dance, we give our implicit consent to get as close as is necessary and to touch/be touched and hold/be held by what is necessary to perform the dance. And it is our responsibility to not go beyond what is necessary. Except, of course, by mutual consent, but that then becomes a personal matter.

When we engage in certain social activities, we choose to suspend/relax our normal personal space as required by the activity. We do not allow ourselves to be touched by strangers, yet do allow it when those strangers are hairdressers or physicians, etc, who are performing their professional duties and are restricting that touching to what is necessary. And we also do so when engaged in dance, again to the extent that is necessary for the dance.

And of course, part of learning the dance is also learning what is necessary, what is not, and getting used to it. I've still got a bit of work to do on that last part -- though most of my concern is that she not feel uncomfortable.

[Sagitta]

Does this make a difference to any of you? Personal space upper or lower?

Mmm, interesting, a good question. I'm not sure really as in Swing I guess we don't usually get so close as you do in AT. I did feel a bit uncomfortable though in a Balboa class where the teacher insisted that we all danced chest squashed to chest :? (although this is how it's supposed to be danced :D )
It took me a long time to get comfortable with Balboa (and I'm a guy). But in fact it's the girls who complain about the guys not holding them close enough, because they need that connection to feel the lead.

Very true. In the AT workshop I took the guys were told to hold people a little tighter then we felt comfortable doing and that we most probably were doing it just right.