Is Balboa a swing dance?

[pygmalion]

I always assumes it was, since almost everybody I know who does it, got there by way of Lindy hop. Imagine my surprise when I read this:

Balboa
Very fast, 8-count, partners basically glued together, all footwork. The Balboa was created in, and named for, the Balboa Park Club, an enormous wood-frame building, home of the Naval Officer's Club in San Diego during WWII (Lowell Gosser, several-time WCS champion, *was* here in San Diego during the war, and backs up this story.). The floor is about 13,000 square feet. The Balboa has lots of fast footwork but not much whole-body movement, and was developed as an answer to the question, "what do you dance when the band plays Dixieland jazz?" (The Balboa uses a "shuffle" basic, with short foot movements and overall "look" optimized for really fast swing music, such as Dixieland.) It goes 1-2-3 kick. Skippy Blair says that the Balboa is *not* a swing dance since it has no 6 count patterns, only 4's and 8's --Skippy said that all swing dances have a 6 count basic pattern.

According to _SylviaSykes (who, along with _JonathanBixby, has made Santa Barbara the Balboa capitol of the world), the Balboa really isn't a style of swing at all. It is danced almost exclusively in closed dance position and most closely resembles a dance the natives of 1930's Chicago called the "Shag". The Balboa has an eight count basic but the rhythm pattern isn't like traditional single swing's "slow, slow, quick, quick".

Huh? Is it's not swing, then what is it? And why do Lindy dancers and some other swing dancers do it? Is there a connection to swing -- footwork, patterns or styling in common? Enquiring minds want to know. 8)

[Sagitta]

bal-swing?

[etchuck]

I don't know... I guess it's swing since most people dance to it with extremely fast swing music. I don't want to get myself in too much troublem but I guess it's a way that lindy folks can "get real close" with their partners. :)

A simple google search yields: http://www.balboanation.com/balboa.html .

[jon]

I don't know... I guess it's swing since most people dance to it with extremely fast swing music..

I can dance quickstep to some fast swing music too, but that doesn't mean that quickstep is swing dancing :-)

When you get to this point in a thread it's clear that, hey, it all depends on how you define the words, and different people are using different definitions of the words, so it's useful to find out what definitions they actually have in mind.

I think all these dance labels sit in a very high dimensional configuration space of music, moves, connection, and styling, and there are extremely fuzzy bubbles around each label.

[etchuck]

I don't know... I guess it's swing since most people dance to it with extremely fast swing music..

I can dance quickstep to some fast swing music too, but that doesn't mean that quickstep is swing dancing :-) .

Yeah, but obviously not many lindy people want to take quickstep lessons. :)

[Flat Shoes]

bal-swing?
Balboa was originally only danced in closed position. Bal-swing is a break-away version of balboa, where moves from swing/lindy is added.

Today, when someone says Balboa it may mean both bal-swing or original balboa. Original balboa is today often called pure-bal or pure-balboa to distinguish it from bal-swing.

The main connection between balboa and Lindy Hop is that it was, and still is, danced to some of the same fast Jazz/Swing music. And since it can be danced to the same music, and it's very easy to switch between the two mid-song without disrupting the dance, it's very useful for lindy hoppers who want to slow down dancing a bit when the music gets very fast.

Balboa is danced with a pulse, but not with bounce. It's also, when doing bal-swing, danced with a but smaller patterns than is common in lindy and it has a gliding step that is different from the Lindy. More importantly, it does not have the same feel to it at all. Even though it's danced to swinging music, it does not have a swinging motion or feel to it. So I would go with Silvia Stykes, whom I'd consider an autorithy on balboa, here and say the neither pure-bal nor bal-swing is swing dancing.

[suek]

Balboa is a ballroom dance. It has a lilt, not a bounce. The posture is upright, that is until you open up into bal swing. Don't worry about it so much; take a class. You'll see.

Here's some great info:

http://www.balboanation.com/balboa.html

Here's the intro page; there's more:

"We can't tell you how to dance Balboa, but we can tell you when you are not dancing Balboa." -from dancers around Balboa's start.

Origins of Balboa
It's hard to get a consensus view concerning the origins of Balboa. Many dance historians state that the dance was a derivation of Foxtrot, others believe it evolved from the Charleston or Collegiate Shag. Willie Desatof an original Balboa dancer of great distinction believes it evolved from the Rhumba.

There were many different pre-existing dances around at the time and several of the old Balboa masters also knew many of these other dances. Balboa is an 8 count dance so a connection with other 8 count dances would be consistent. However, this should not rule out a connection to the 6 count dances, as evolution is a powerful thing! Although we can't be sure as to the precise origins, it does seem likely that early Balboa dancers were probably influenced by their knowledge of other dances around at that time.

What is Balboa?
There are 2 different forms of Balboa:

Balboa (its original pure form)
Danced completely in closed position, pure Balboa evolved in conservative dance halls where space was limited. Some of these dance halls had strict rules or codes of conduct that prohibited the wild kicks of the Charleston and other exuberant dances. Pure Balboa is characterised by a fairly upright posture with both partners standing 'chest to chest' in close intimate contact. You never break away from your partner, there are no spins or turns, and you remain completely in contact through the chest at all times. This does not leave much scope for variations so pure Balboa is an intrinsically very simple dance. The only variations possible were changes in direction and a few step variations. These step variations generally play with the rhythm or change the look and feel (style) from below the knee downwards. If you part at the chest then you're not doing pure Balboa!

All of these are allowed when overall style, feeling, and framework remain true in spirit

The dance's simplicity and economy of movement make it very well suited to fast tempo music. This fact has meant that Balboa is often mistakenly thought of as just a fast dance. Indeed many of the original dancers could dance at amazing speeds. However, they also liked to dance to slower music and the dance has always been done to music of all tempos including some improbably slow tunes. It's been said that pure Balboa was done by older dancers who just wanted to meet and dance with women!

Bal Swing
After a while some of the original Balboa dancers tired of doing just pure Balboa and started to introduce fancier variations which forced the 'chest to chest' connection to be broken. In this form anything goes; spins, turns, dips, tricks, and even air steps! All these things are allowed provided the overall style, feeling, and framework remain true in spirit to the original dance. In explicit terms it might be said that these open patterns should be combined with recognisable Balboa footwork.

There's some dispute over exactly when this form got its 'Bal Swing' name. It is clear though that for some time many people referred to it as just 'Swing' dancing. Other forms of swing dancing also existed around that time in different areas, these were clearly not derived from Balboa. So only really swing dancers in the immediate LA region might have been doing what we now know as Bal Swing.

[suek]

There are some videos on balboanation too. Watch 'em.

Happy fourth y'all.

Sue

[suek]

oops it's the fifth.

oh well

[swinginstyle]

There was a similar argument on Yehoodi awhile back. I guess somewhere Skippy Blair, reknowned instructor, said a dance isn't swing unless it contains triples.

[pygmalion]

And apparently has to have a six-count basic? :?

[suek]

There was a similar argument on Yehoodi awhile back. I guess somewhere Skippy Blair, reknowned instructor, said a dance isn't swing unless it contains triples.FYI, there is a triple in Bal. Probably the hardest triple you'll ever do.

Balboa:ballroom dance done to jazz music
Bal/swing, or swing as the oldtimers called it IS A SWING DANCE.

[swinginstyle]

Oh, you're right. I just learned the triple from Jason and Sylvia. It is difficult.

[d nice]

I think it has been answered to your satisfaction, but Balboa or "pure-bal" or "straight-bal" is not a swing dance, it is a ballroom dance done to swing music. Swing-Bal is a swing dance. A swing dance is not solely defined by the music it is danced to though that certainly is one key component. Skippy Blair is not an authority on Balboa or even swing dancing as a genre. Swing dances do not have to contain triples, nor do they have to contain six count steps as part of their standard vocabulary.

[BalboaSwing]

Balboa
Skippy said that all swing dances have a 6 count basic pattern.




First off, Balboa is a Swing Dance! I don't know a single Ballroom dancer and I am the Executive Director of a large Ballroom Studio who dances Balboa. I have never seen any Ballroom competition have a Balboa division.
A dance doesn't have to originate from Lindy Hop to be a Swing Dance.
If I had to choose to classify Balboa and Swing was not an option I would classify it as a Folk Dance.

Second, if all swing dances have a 6-count basic then Lindy Hop must not be a swing dance!?!?!? Every good Lindy Hopper I know dances an 8-count Swing Out as a basic pattern. I guess that descrition would also make Charleston non-swing, unless you know some 6 count Charleston?

BalboaSwing

[pygmalion]

So, at the risk of sounding pitiably ignorant :wink: , what makes a swing dance, a swing dance? Clearly, by the various responses to this thread, we're using a few different operating definitions here. Skippy Blair's includes a six-count basic, for whatever her reason may be. :?

What is your definition? Anyone? 8)

[pygmalion]

And, if you're someone who differentiates between the designation of balboa and bal-swing, and calls balboa "ballroom" but bal-swing, "swing," why? Just curious. 8)

[suek]

And, if you're someone who differentiates between the designation of balboa and bal-swing, and calls balboa "ballroom" but bal-swing, "swing," why? Just curious.

I don't spend much time and energy differentiating between the designations. I just dance. That said, here are some thoughts:

I'm a swing dancer, and these are the dances I do:

lindy hop
charleston (side by side, 20s, shadow, solo)
vernacular jazz
hip hop
chicago steppin'
carolina shag
balboa balboa balboa (you see a preference here?)
blues

They are all swing dances. Yet, and this is an important distinction, pure closed bal is referred to as a ballroom dance by every single balboa teacher with whom I have studied. Here are some of the things they mention about pure bal when they make that distinction:
-posture is upright--not the athletic posture we use in other swing dances
-it's not a bounce, it's a pulse or a lilt
-all all all the action takes place below the hips

I mainly dance balboa to big band / dixieland jazz music. There's a definite beat/rhythm flava that makes a song danceable for bal. And most of my bal dances (except the ones I lead which are almost 100% pure bal 'cause it's all I know how to lead so far!) go back and forth between pure bal and bal swing. There is a difference in our posture, our pulse, our connection, when we open up.

All this chat about this is fruitless, IMHO, until one actually experiences it.

Go dance! Do bal. You will love it.

I guarantee it.

[pygmalion]

Totally cool. Thanks, suek. :D

[SDsalsaguy]

If swing dancers don't consider balboa a swing dance that's fine by me... I'm just curious if there are any ballroom dancers who consider it a ballroom dance though...

[Spitfire]

And I've never seen Balboa offered in any of the local studios. :?

[Doug]

OK. A little more needs to be said.

Skippy Blair is renowned, & reviled by many, in the Balboa community for her statement the Balboa can not be a swing dance because it does not have a six count basic. I have no idea what Skippy was talking about, but I suspect that she had no idea either.

I do tend to define a dance by the music it is danced to. Tango is (generally) danced to Tango, and the dance generally danced to Tango music is called Tango, Waltz is generally to waltzes, and the dance generally danced to Waltz (not Vals!) is generally called Waltz (edited). The complex of dances generally danced to Latin music are referred to as Latin dances etc. Thus I certainly consider Bal/Balswing to be swing dances since it is in the complex of dances that are danced mainly to swing music. And as a Balboa DJ I know that, in addition to being swing, there is even a particular feel the music must have if you are not to be heckled by some of the more rabid dancers. (Hey – that’s fast Lindy music, not Balboa music. Where did the drive go??)

If one looks at the history of Bal/Balswing, one can split hairs over whether pure Balboa (no breakaway) is/was a swing dance, and some of the old timers do so. I think that was the context in which Sylvia made her remark. But as danced today, Balboa and BalSwing are certainly swing dances. Neither is codified, neither is taught based on a ballroom type syllabus, both are strictly lead-follow dances, and both are danced almost exclusively to swing music. Sounds more like swing than many dances with swing in their name.

In fact, just because a dance is called "North Pole Swing", does that make it a swing dance?? What is the essence of a swing dance anyway??
Pygmalion - you asked a very good question!

Edited 1 time to change Tango to Waltz.

[bjp22tango]

If swing dancers don't consider balboa a swing dance that's fine by me... I'm just curious if there are any ballroom dancers who consider it a ballroom dance though...

Keep in mind there is BALLROOM, Ballroom, and ballroom :wink:

BALLROOM - (my definition) International and American style smooth dance in competition and therefore in dance studios Waltz, International Tango, V. Waltz, Quickstep, Foxtrot, and American Tango.

Ballroom - what the general public currently thinks of as ballroom which by the way can include swing and latin dances.

ballroom - dancing that in the past has been danced in (usually) crowded ballrooms and has evolved a fairly close hold. I would include Balboa and Argentine Tango in this category as well as all the smooth dances we think of as "Ballroom" The dances were developed in tight spaces that did not allow for much "open" work.

ballroom dancing doesn't always bear much resemblance to BALLROOM dancing.

I would include Balboa in the swing category while I wouldn't include Quickstep, even though they are danced to much of the same music and a competent leader can seque from Quickstep to Swing as well as from Balboa. I think in a lot of cases, you just have to go with "you know it when you see it" As suek says, there really isn't much use in discussing it until you have done it! 8)

[jon]

OK. A little more needs to be said.

Skippy Blair is renowned, & reviled by many, in the Balboa community for her statement the Balboa can not be a swing dance because it does not have a six count basic. I have no idea what Skippy was talking about, but I suspect that she had no idea either.

I'd be curious to know exactly what Skippy said, in context, but (unsurprisingly) cannot find any such quotes online. I strongly suspect that she made an offhand comment that is now getting jumped on by people with a big ideological investment in Balboa, but who are using different definitions for some of the terms involved. I'm not a big Skippy fan personally for other reasons, but it gets a little repetitive to hear her trashed over and over for such vague reasons.

I do tend to define a dance by the music it is danced to. Tango is (generally) danced to Tango, and the dance generally danced to Tango music is called Tango, Waltz is generally to waltzes, and the dance generally danced to Waltz (not Vals!) is generally called Tango. The complex of dances generally danced to Latin music are referred to as Latin dances etc.

(Mostly non-Latino) ballroom dancers use that label, yes. The earliest use I'm aware of is from some veddy British ISTD members back in the 1940s, which see "The Technique of Latin-American Dancing".

But as danced today, Balboa and BalSwing are certainly swing dances. Neither is codified, neither is taught based on a ballroom type syllabus, both are strictly lead-follow dances, and both are danced almost exclusively to swing music. Sounds more like swing than many dances with swing in their name.

You're picking one meaning out of the air and claiming that is the definition of a "swing dance". The truth is that there are many definitions, they're not necessarily compatible (and often just orthogonal), and there will never be agreement among the people who use those different definitions as to what a "swing dance" is. This scenario is one reason why electronic arguments emerge so easily, and go on for so long - people can post for years on a topic such as this without ever acknowledging that they aren't even speaking the same language.

[d nice]

Charleston is not a swing dance, but it has nothing to do a with six count basic.

You have to be able to divorce codified and syllabilized competitive "Ballroom" from social ballroom dances that evolved organically and have resisted codification and syllabulization.

A dance could both be folk and ballroom, Argentine Tango is a perfect example. The early history and development of pure Balboa is what makes it a ballroom dance. Bal-Swing is a different matter.

[BettyB]

i dont technically consider balboa swing, but i can see why many lindy dancers balboa.

personally i think it has to do with the revival aspect.

many of us lindy hoppers dance other "vintage" popular dances that havent been formalised by the ballroom syllabus system.

they dont all swing, but they do generally come from the same sorta time frame (20's-60s) and they are danced with an energy and social atmosphere that pays homage to the times when these dances were in their hey day.

dances i'm interested in (not that i can execute them all compentently!) are

lindy hop
carolina shag
collegiate shag
balboa
shim sham
the madison
boogie woogie
charleston

(and more, but you get the picture)

they dont all swing, and i dont really care if they do or dont, i guess i just get a big kick out of doing these old fashioned once popular dances that dont come with all the scary elements of ballroom (esp high heels and fake tan!) i suspect others feel the same.

[Doug]

I'd be curious to know exactly what Skippy said, in context, but (unsurprisingly) cannot find any such quotes online.
I have at some point read the article authored by Skippy in which it was stated that a swing dance must contain both 6 count and 8 count patterns and include a 6 count basic. This was a follow on article to the one that she authored describing the 1985 Swing Dance Council meeting in which she wrote:

This is the first Definition of "Swing" as approved by the original Swing Dance Council in 1985 (I was there, attended all the meetings and personally recorded this tidbit of history):

"Swing" is an all-American, couples, rhythm dance consisting primarily of 6-Beat and 8-Beat patterns that cover either a circular or slotted area on the dance floor. Swing incorporates the use of underarm turns, side passes, push breaks, and whips, plus "4-Beat" rhythm beaks, syncopations and extensions of the same."

She goes on to specifically state:
Examples of what is NOT Swing are: Hustle, Hip-Hop, Charleston, Balboa, Jazz, etc.

I think that the key here is that they are defining swing dance for the purpose of - among other things - competition in which each dance and the acceptable vocabulary must be specifically spelled out.


You're picking one meaning out of the air and claiming that is the definition of a "swing dance". The truth is that there are many definitions, they're not necessarily compatible (and often just orthogonal), and there will never be agreement among the people who use those different definitions as to what a "swing dance" is.
You missed my last paragraph in which I raised the question of "What is the essence of a swing dance anyway??"

I guess that to a large extent I DO define my dance by the music to which it is danced and to which it is most suited. And I don't really care to agrue definitions with others and I especially don't care to try to force my definitions on others. Balboa is Swing or it is NOT Swing - who cares? What I know for a fact is that it is currently preferrentially danced to the most hard core and hottest swing/jazz music that was ever written or played. And it is unique in this regard.

[d nice]

I think those who are aware of the dances that developed to hot jazz/swing music that are generally called swing dances could all sit down and agree on a set of requirements that classify a dance a swing dance.

They may not agree on every single thing out of every other dqancers mouth but if they listed their requirments individually and you compared the lists, you'd find far more things in agreement.

[Doug]

I think those who are aware of the dances that developed to hot jazz/swing music that are generally called swing dances could all sit down and agree on a set of requirements that classify a dance a swing dance.

They may not agree on every single thing out of every other dqancers mouth but if they listed their requirments individually and you compared the lists, you'd find far more things in agreement.

Damon - I do agree with you on this one!! (I think :? )

[jon]

I think those who are aware of the dances that developed to hot jazz/swing music that are generally called swing dances could all sit down and agree on a set of requirements that classify a dance a swing dance.

I'd buy tickets to watch that meeting. Especially if pillows and Nerf weapons were provided for dispute resolution.

[pygmalion]

dnice is probably right. There are more areas of agreement than there are areas in dispute.

But I'd love to see that meeting, too. I bet black eyes would be involved. LOL.

[d nice]

Well things like this happen informally all the time at mixed swing events.

You are actually more likely to see drama from dancers in the same form than across form. So and so doesn't do REAL blah de blah, they do that new/fake/old/fast/slow stuff.

[jon]

Well things like this happen informally all the time at mixed swing events.

This thread is a "mixed swing event".

You are actually more likely to see drama from dancers in the same form than across form.

That's largely because in the mixed event context, when people get fed up with each other's obviously ludicrous positions, they can go back to their separate corners - er, rooms - and ignore each other.