Determining skill by watching

[twnkltoz]

This is a tangent from the thread about asking people to dance, but I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

When you watch them dance, what do you look for to tell you they're a good dancer? Indicate male or female.

[Sagitta]

Can I see the song being expressed in the dancing when looking at the couple. At follower how well he/she expresses himself/herself when given freedom to do so. At leader is he leading follower at his/her level.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

While I look at men dancing, I notice the following:
What does his posture/embrace look like.
How he moves to music.
How he navigates the floor.

Huge red flags:
The guy is talking during the dancing.
Starts dancing the very second the music starts playing.
Uses his arms and hands to lead.
Has trouble navigating: cannot stay in the ronda, jumps from one line to another, dances in the middle of the floor, cuts others off, bumps into people/furniture.
Makes noise with his feet.
Holds his partner far away from him.

There are other things that happen before/in between dancing that also play their part.

[AndaBien]

...what do you look for to tell you they're a good dancer? Indicate male or female.

Interesting question.

When I see a woman looking around the room while she's dancing, I automatically dismiss her as a partner: she is not paying enough attention to the dance. Granted, her partner may not be giving her much to pay attention too, but that does not give her a reason to merely do a dry run with him. If she can't be totally involved in a dance with him, she should decline to dance with him. (Even if she feels inclined to give him a charity dance).

If I see a woman dancing and her facial expression looks like she is trying to solve a problem (left brain), I do not feel inclined to dance with her. The dance I want to give her has no answers; it's just an experience.

When I see a woman dancing and she has an expression on her face like she is tasting something savory, searching for flavor, I want to dance with her.

When I see a woman dancing and she seems to enjoy every quarter inch of a movement, rather than trying to achieve the end result, I want to dance with her.

[Zoopsia59]

This is a tangent from the thread about asking people to dance, but I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

When you watch them dance, what do you look for to tell you they're a good dancer? Indicate male or female.

I like to watch people as a couple, rather than just watching the individual doing their part. I watch to see how well the couple moves as one. It's actually rather rare to see 2 people dancing tango and truly looking like a single unit rather than someone who is sending signals and someone who is trying to catch them and respond. I had been thinking that typically I see this only in close embrace, however, I watched a couple at a milonga last weekend who were dancing open nuevo and they embodied this principle even though they were being playful and "fancy".

BOTH people need to be good dancers to pull this off, so it doesn't tell you much about the people who are good that are dancing with someone who can't pull it off. But when you see a couple moving so perfectly as one dancer, it's a safe bet that they are probably both great partners. (unless of course, they only ever dance with each other and that's how they developed this ability together... but then, if that's the case, they aren't going to dance with you anyway, so it doesn't matter)

However, some very good dancers can end up simply not meshing well with another good dancer. Also a good dancer may be dancing with someone who hasn't attained the skill of "becoming one". So in the cases where I don't have the "perfect sync" to clue me in, I look at leaders for things like Lily states in her post and in this order:

Does he look like he is safe for the rest of the dancers out there.
Does he overuse his arms or look to be "forcing" rather than leading.
Does he dance with the music or is he just moving around independently of the music.

If he passes those basic tests, I'll probably dance with him if he asks. Usually when there's someone I REALLY want to dance with, and will feel sad that I didn't dance with, I formed that desire by having danced with him, not from watching him. Until I actually dance with him, I can't be sure whether he's someone that I REALLY, REALLY don't want to miss out on (unless he's famous, and even then...). Even the leaders that other followers rave about may not turn out to be someone that makes me tango-swoon. The only way to find out for sure is to dance with someone.

When watching followers (not to dance with) I watch to see how cleanly, elegantly and precisely they execute the simplest things like walking. I don't get distracted by the number or height of embellishments. Or actually, to be more specific, if I'm noticing the embellishments that much, they probably ARE distracting... which means they don't fit the dance that well. I look at the posture and connection she seems to have, and how stable and responsive she seems to be. I find that many leaders are impressed by the wrong things when they watch followers, but actually many followers are too... they see the higher boleos and fancy wraps and think "Oh wow! She's SO good!"...

yeah... maybe she is.. or maybe she throws all that stuff in regardless of what the leader is trying to do and has no ability to alter her styling.

[opendoor]

(As a male leader) When a new and unkown female follower appears at a milonga:

when sitting: body languages, shoe style
when dancing: facial expression, left hand attitude, ability of projecting the feet

[newbie]

Looking at the leader's face tells me about the follower's skills. Or lack of.

[Dave Bailey]

When you watch them dance, what do you look for to tell you they're a good dancer? Indicate male or female.
Generally I find it's easier to tell if they're a bad dancer - i.e. by spotting if they're making mistakes.

For a leader, that would involve floorcraft, musicality and obviously balance.

For a follower, that would involve posture, footwork, placement and so on.

Triage system - eliminate the rubbish ones first :)

[AndaBien]

An Argentine woman told me that other women would look at the faces of women as they danced, and if they saw a beautiful look, they would want to dance with that guy.

[dchester]

An Argentine woman told me that other women would look at the faces of women as they danced, and if they saw a beautiful look, they would want to dance with that guy.
This ^

IMO, looking at the face of a dancer often tells you more about their partner.

[Zoopsia59]

This ^

IMO, looking at the face of a dancer often tells you more about their partner.

I disagree... a follower here used to look like she was in pain no matter who she danced with, including the leaders who were everyone's favorites. She was fairly new to tango (although had done other partner dances) and was uncomfortable with the difference from what she was used to, even though she looked like an experienced dancer.

If I based my judgment of leaders on her facial expression while dancing with them, I would be avoiding some of the best leaders here. Over a short time (because she had so much previous dance experience and natural talent) she became more comfortable and skilled. Her expression changed... not the leaders' abilities.

I know another follower who looks like she's in heaven almost all the time when dancing, yet quite a few leaders find her awkward to lead.

I don't think a person's expression can be attributed to their partner as easily as people think. You certainly can't dismiss the person's OWN dancing or mindset (or anatomical facial structure) as a contributor to their facial expression.

[bordertangoman]

I disagree... a follower here used to look like she was in pain no matter who she danced with, including the leaders who were everyone's favorites. She was fairly new to tango (although had done other partner dances) and was uncomfortable with the difference from what she was used to, even though she looked like an experienced dancer.

If I based my judgment of leaders on her facial expression while dancing with them, I would be avoiding some of the best leaders here. Over a short time (because she had so much previous dance experience and natural talent) she became more comfortable and skilled. Her expression changed... not the leaders' abilities.

I know another follower who looks like she's in heaven almost all the time when dancing, yet quite a few leaders find her awkward to lead.

I don't think a person's expression can be attributed to their partner as easily as people think. You certainly can't dismiss the person's OWN dancing or mindset (or anatomical facial structure) as a contributor to their facial expression.

yeah, I agree with this..its easy enough to have a mona lisa expression and still be thinking about the times crossword rather than the bum dance you're having...

[AndaBien]

yeah, I agree with this..its easy enough to have a mona lisa expression and still be thinking about the times crossword rather than the bum dance you're having...

I think there is a clear difference between the facial expressions of a woman who is totally focused on the dance and one who is thinking about other things.

[Dave Bailey]

I think there is a clear difference between the facial expressions of a woman who is totally focused on the dance and one who is thinking about other things.
Mmm.

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes women pretend to be having a better time than they are actually having. Ahem. ;)

(Is there a Tango equivalent to "Lie back and think of England?" )

[twnkltoz]

Mmm.

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes women pretend to be having a better time than they are actually having. Ahem. ;)

(Is there a Tango equivalent to "Lie back and think of England?" )

Exactly. Particularly with beginners who are trying really hard, I try to smile and act like I'm having a good time to encourage them.

[AndaBien]

...i hate to break it to you, but sometimes women pretend to be having a better time than they are actually having...

ymmv

[opendoor]

..Is there a Tango equivalent to "Lie back and think of England?"

Ja: "...ever done a volcada?"

[bordertangoman]

Mmm.

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes women pretend to be having a better time than they are actually having. Ahem. ;)

(Is there a Tango equivalent to "Lie back and think of England?" )

I think that is pretty much universal..hence the success of Facebook; its prime function is to let other people know that you are having a better time than them.....;)


having said that one of my class was laughing so hard last night he couldnt speak and tell me what had tickled his funny bone..

[Zoopsia59]

I think there is a clear difference between the facial expressions of a woman who is totally focused on the dance and one who is thinking about other things.

And someone who is totally focused on the dance may not be smiling because they are concentrating... so if you base your assessment of their partner on the lack of smiling on the part of the one focused and concentrating, you might miss a great partner.

[AndaBien]

And someone who is totally focused on the dance may not be smiling because they are concentrating... so if you base your assessment of their partner on the lack of smiling on the part of the one focused and concentrating, you might miss a great partner.

I haven't mentioned smiling, and that is not what I'm talking about. It's more a look of bliss that I'm thinking about. And yes, I know, the guy she's dancing with might have something to do with it.

[Zoopsia59]

I haven't mentioned smiling, and that is not what I'm talking about. It's more a look of bliss that I'm thinking about. And yes, I know, the guy she's dancing with might have something to do with it.

My point is (and has been from the beginning) that even if she isn't blissful looking, it doesn't mean she isn't dancing with a good leader (and vice versa... if a leader doesn't look blissful, it doesn't mean he is dancing with a bad follower)

And judging from the follower I mentioned above, just because someone looks blissful, doesn't mean they are a good dancer, that their partner is a good dancer, or that the partner is in bliss at all. The blissful person may just be blissfully ignorant of how much trouble their partner is having with them.

But then, what do I know.. I judge whether or not someone is good to dance with by actually dancing with them. :rolleyes:

[AndaBien]

...actually dancing with them.

What a good idea! Maybe I wasn't in class the day they taught that.

[dchester]

I disagree... a follower here used to look like she was in pain no matter who she danced with, including the leaders who were everyone's favorites. She was fairly new to tango (although had done other partner dances) and was uncomfortable with the difference from what she was used to, even though she looked like an experienced dancer.

If I based my judgment of leaders on her facial expression while dancing with them, I would be avoiding some of the best leaders here. Over a short time (because she had so much previous dance experience and natural talent) she became more comfortable and skilled. Her expression changed... not the leaders' abilities.

I know another follower who looks like she's in heaven almost all the time when dancing, yet quite a few leaders find her awkward to lead.

I don't think a person's expression can be attributed to their partner as easily as people think. You certainly can't dismiss the person's OWN dancing or mindset (or anatomical facial structure) as a contributor to their facial expression.
A few thoughts:
1) Often <> Always (i.e. no single criteria is foolproof)
2) The face (relaxation) isn't the only thing I look at, but it's a good one.
3) When I look at the follower's face and see her look relaxed, it tells me that she's capable of being relaxed, but if I see the leader looking quite different, then I feel there's a disconnect.
4) Smiling often doesn't occur until the end of the song or tanda (although I suppose they might be smiling because they're glad it's over).
5) I'll also look to see if the leader has to chase after her (indicating she's not staying with him), typically on turns.
6) This stuff applies more to a connection type of song/tanda, as opposed to a high energy song, like Borges y Paraguay by Bajofondo Tango, where relaxation isn't a dominant feature, (the criteria I'm looking for is different).
7) BTW, none of this stuff matters, if I've danced with the follower before and remember what she dances like, or we are friends, etc. If I like dancing with her, I couldn't care less if some other leader is having problems with her.

[tangobro]

This is a tangent from the thread about asking people to dance, but I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

When you watch them dance, what do you look for to tell you they're a good dancer? Indicate male or female.

I'm a male, I look for a female dancer, not to see if she is "good", but to see if she goes on my "don't ask" list. As far as I'm concerned "good" only means good with me.

I don't ask if:

- she is looking around the room, head turning, maybe waving at friends while dancing. Unless she is dancing with someone who seems to be giving her a miserable dance I assume she may be also be disengaged with me (I know it's bad to assume but this is a snap judgement).

- she picks up her feet to step, rather than extending the leg. I've noticed that women who do this seem heavy & wind up giving me back aches.

- poor posture. She either is slouched over her partner or her upper body is arched back in what I think of as ballroom style. Again - back aches.

- she is doing unlead boleos, ganchos or wraps. I've had unlead boleos pull me off balance and aggravate my knees.

If she does not do any of the above I look to see if she maintains her axis by collecting, and does not change her weight from 1 foot to the other without a lead. If those points are good then I'll want to find out if she will be "good" with me.

[mshedgehog]

Lots of sensible stuff above, the only thing I'd add is that, disregarding obvious red flags which have been mentioned already, I've always found visual assessment surprisingly unreliable.

I've slowly got a bit better at it, over the years, but it doesn't usually give me reliable information about how the person will feel to me. I tend to ask other women how they got on, and assess the answers in relation to my knowledge of them.

[dchester]

FWIW, I do dance with beginners. It's only some tandas (songs), where I might get more selective.

After all, people danced with me when I was a beginner and absolutely sucked, so now that I've progressed all the way to mediocre, I'm not about to become a tango snob.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

FWIW, I do dance with beginners. It's only some tandas (songs), where I might get more selective.

After all, people danced with me when I was a beginner and absolutely sucked, so now that I've progressed all the way to mediocre, I'm not about to become a tango snob.

Not dancing with beginners is not always about snobbery. There are beginners, and then there are perpetual beginners, beginners who are not learning the right things, beginners with bad attitude, beginners whose behavior is dangerous, rude, disrespectful. Patience and generosity of others, as grand as they might be, is not the bottomless pit.

[AndaBien]

...There are beginners, and then there are perpetual beginners, beginners who are not learning the right things, beginners with bad attitude, beginners whose behavior is dangerous, rude, disrespectful...

There are also beginners who are learning a style I don't prefer. I am happy to dance with beginners who show potential in the style that I enjoy. After all, if they become proficient at it, I get another partner.

[Zoopsia59]

Not dancing with beginners is not always about snobbery. There are beginners, and then there are perpetual beginners, beginners who are not learning the right things, beginners with bad attitude, beginners whose behavior is dangerous, rude, disrespectful. Patience and generosity of others, as grand as they might be, is not the bottomless pit.

Agree. Beginners are usually not as much trouble as "intermediate" or "advanced" dancers can be.

[twnkltoz]

Agree. Beginners are usually not as much trouble as "intermediate" or "advanced" dancers can be.

Very true. There's a saying amongst WCS dancers that applies to AT and BR, too:

Beginners do basics. Intermediate dancers do moves. Advanced dancers do basics...really well.

[AndaBien]

Very true. There's a saying amongst WCS dancers that applies to AT and BR, too:

Beginners do basics. Intermediate dancers do moves. Advanced dancers do basics...really well.

That is so true.

But it takes people (leaders) so long to figure this out.

[Peaches]

Yeah...and until you can do basics really well, at least make things vaguely interesting by doing interesting moves. Sux getting stuck with hours of boring, repetitive, crap simple stuff because someone has gotten the idea that "simple is divine" without understanding that you've got to do simple exceptionally well for it to be dvine.

[twnkltoz]

I'd rather walk all night than do a bunch of crappy moves done crappily.

[Peaches]

If the walking is good, yes. But boring, non-musical walking done crappily (and god help me if the embrace sucks) v. non-musical moves done crappily...I'll take the moves. At least it provides mental stimulation in trying to figure out what in the eff Mr. Guy was trying to lead.

[twnkltoz]

Except that they're usually yanking you all over the place trying to get you to do said moves. No thanks.

[Subliminal]

There is something very satisfying about syncing a gentle volcada to the swell of the strings.

I'm just sayin'. ;-)

[bordertangoman]

There is something very satisfying about syncing a gentle volcada to the swell of the strings.

I'm just sayin'. ;-)

you just reminded me of something I might try to teach in my milonga class....ho ho ho ;)

[chanchan]

If the walking is good, yes. But boring, non-musical walking done crappily (and god help me if the embrace sucks) v. non-musical moves done crappily...I'll take the moves. At least it provides mental stimulation in trying to figure out what in the eff Mr. Guy was trying to lead.
The first option is nothing worse than boring. The second option, according to me, is highly damaging both to you and to him. Dancing with a follower which is accustomed to figure out in spite of relaxing and thinking to the music and the connection is awful: you risk to ruin your next tandas.

[bordertangoman]

The first option is nothing worse than boring. The second option, according to me, is highly damaging both to you and to him. Dancing with a follower which is accustomed to figure out in spite of relaxing and thinking to the music and the connection is awful: you risk to ruin your next tandas.

you might not have danced with a boring dancer, I suspect. peaches is right. a Boring dancer might as well go and do something else..like Sunday drivers.

[Dave Bailey]

Agree. Beginners are usually not as much trouble as "intermediate" or "advanced" dancers can be.
Totally agree - and the same applies to all dances. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I can, with 2 mins instruction, get a complete novice follower to dance with me socially (assuming she actually listens to the instructions and does them of course).

I can't do the same with a follower who has two years' experience and is still a bad follower - because, typically, she'll be set in her ways and she won't listen to me.

[Peaches]

The first option is nothing worse than boring. The second option, according to me, is highly damaging both to you and to him. Dancing with a follower which is accustomed to figure out in spite of relaxing and thinking to the music and the connection is awful: you risk to ruin your next tandas.And what, pray, is a follower supposed to do, or how is she supposed to follow, when there isn't anything resembling a clear lead coming from the guy? Relaxing and melding with the music is great and all, but when you're getting no/mixed signals from the guy you've got to do something for the next 12 minutes...like figuring out what he's trying to get you to do, and not getting hurt in the process.

If that's going to get held against me as a follower (along with looking blissful, or not blissful, or having my eyes open, or shut, or wearing perfume, or not wearing perfume, or being too thin, or too fat, or too short, or too tall, or too casual, or not casual enough, or having too much pressure in the embrace, or not enough pressure in the embrace, or sitting and talking, or sitting and not talking, or standing in the wrong place, or whatever the hell else someone is going to judge me as a dancer by...other than how I dance)...well then fine.

[Dave Bailey]

And what, pray, is a follower supposed to do, or how is she supposed to follow, when there isn't anything resembling a clear lead coming from the guy?
The advice I always give to followers is "if you don't know what to do, then do nothing". I only wish more followers would do this.

That said, I appreciate that this is difficult in a milonga. But if you're dancing with a poor leader, the obvious answer is to say "thank you" after one dance. Thus reducing the duration of the pain, at least.

If that's going to get held against me as a follower (along with looking blissful, or not blissful, or having my eyes open, or shut, or wearing perfume, or not wearing perfume, or being too thin, or too fat, or too short, or too tall, or too casual, or not casual enough, or having too much pressure in the embrace, or not enough pressure in the embrace, or sitting and talking, or sitting and not talking, or standing in the wrong place, or whatever the hell else someone is going to judge me as a dancer by...other than how I dance)...well then fine.
When you put it that way... :D

[Peaches]

The advice I always give to followers is "if you don't know what to do, then do nothing". I only wish more followers would do this.A fine theory, but essentially worthless in practice. Soooo much easier said than done. That works fine...ish...if the guy is doing squirrely things in place, but if you're moving then it just is not possible. And even if you're in place, if you do nothing other than stand there until/unless a lead is clear you run a very very high risk of getting your foot stepped on or kicked or something else which brings with it very dire consequences.

[bordertangoman]

A fine theory, but essentially worthless in practice. Soooo much easier said than done. That works fine...ish...if the guy is doing squirrely things in place, but if you're moving then it just is not possible. And even if you're in place, if you do nothing other than stand there until/unless a lead is clear you run a very very high risk of getting your foot stepped on or kicked or something else which brings with it very dire consequences.

QUITE right... i think the art of being a good leader is riding the mistakes with such aplomb that you dont miss a whisker of a beat, and that the follower who perceives a mistake on her part will realise its been and gone and she's best sticking with what's happening now.
I mean the music hasnt stopped and short of injury neither have I.

[LadyLeader]

I was forced to practise this last year when visiting a festival abroad. I did know anyone there but the two followers I was travelling with.

When I looked the pista I understood I needed to ask someone who could manage sharp turns and changes forced by the crowd around us. I knew also that in this milieu I couldn't maintain any spectacular style so someone enjoying rythmical, small steps dance would be nice and we both could have good time!

I started to spot followers dancing in that way and found some. When I could se that she was comfortable and her whole body was moving relaxed, smooth but still controlled I tryed to remember her.

There must also be a concentration, focusing inwards to the information about axis, direction coming to her body and then creating her movement.

The most frustrating was to find them again when seated for cortina! Too many times I lost my favorites!

[opendoor]

..advice I always give to followers is "if you don't know what to do, then do nothing"
Soooo much easier said than done .....works fine...if the guy is doing squirrely things in place, but if you're moving then it just is not possible...

I dont agree Peaches: Not only when a leader does fancy stuff. Standing still always belongs to tango. And in case of the follower: there are other important thinks than adornos. F.I. breathing, snuggeling up, the right hand attitude, and the neck thing.

[opendoor]

..advice I always give to followers is "if you don't know what to do, then do nothing"
Soooo much easier said than done .....works fine...if the guy is doing squirrely things in place, but if you're moving then it just is not possible...

I dont agree Peaches: Not only when a leader does fancy stuff. Standing still always belongs to tango. And in case of the follower: there are other important thinks than adornos. F.I. breathing, the right hand attitude and the neck thing.

[twnkltoz]

The other problem with beginning leaders learning patterns to be more interesting is that then they put their energy into that instead of learning the fundamentals. If I'm doing "boring" basics with a beginner, I can use this time to concentrate on my own technique. If I'm fighting to survive, I'm really getting nothing out of it.

[Peaches]

I dont agree Peaches: Not only when a leader does fancy stuff. Standing still always belongs to tango. And in case of the follower: there are other important thinks than adornos. F.I. breathing, the right hand attitude and the neck thing.Um...where did that come from? I'm not talking adornos, and there are times when it.is.impossible.to.stand.still. Try standing still with a leader (attempting) to lead (what you think is probably) a giro, or a boleo, or a cadena, or any number of other things which involve movement across the floor. If you manage to stand still, bad things happen. If he's doing strange things in place and you don't move, god help you if you're not on the foot he thinks you're on--perfect way to get the toe of his shoe jammed into your own unprotected toes.

I'm all with you when it comes to the importance of breathing. I have no clue what you're talking about wrt "right hand attitude" or "the neck thing." And I agree, that standing still is a very important and potentially wonderful part of tango. But that doesn't mean it's really possible to "just do nothing" when you get an unclear lead.

[twnkltoz]

Um...where did that come from? I'm not talking adornos, and there are times when it.is.impossible.to.stand.still. Try standing still with a leader (attempting) to lead (what you think is probably) a giro, or a boleo, or a cadena, or any number of other things which involve movement across the floor. If you manage to stand still, bad things happen. If he's doing strange things in place and you don't move, god help you if you're not on the foot he thinks you're on--perfect way to get the toe of his shoe jammed into your own unprotected toes.

I'm all with you when it comes to the importance of breathing. I have no clue what you're talking about wrt "right hand attitude" or "the neck thing." And I agree, that standing still is a very important and potentially wonderful part of tango. But that doesn't mean it's really possible to "just do nothing" when you get an unclear lead.

This I have to agree with. There are many, many times when you can't just stand still, you have to try to go with whatever he's dragging you into.

[opendoor]

..that doesn't mean it's really possible to "just do nothing" when you get an unclear lead.

To get the things clear: I did not mean any kind of unclear lead, I just meant actively still standing.

..what you're talking about wrt "right hand attitude"...

Sorry, I mixed left with right. In Milonguero style followers often play with their left hand at the neck of the leader, or slip down to his arm. I dont need to tell you. Sorry for confusing.

[chanchan]

And what, pray, is a follower supposed to do, or how is she supposed to follow, when there isn't anything resembling a clear lead coming from the guy? Relaxing and melding with the music is great and all, but when you're getting no/mixed signals from the guy you've got to do something for the next 12 minutes...like figuring out what he's trying to get you to do, and not getting hurt in the process.

When simply "doing nothing" is really impossible, you can try to mantain frontality, connection, and balance... that's all follower is supposed to do.

If he wanted to do a giro and the giro doesn't come out it's not your problem: playing the game of the guesses is probably less boring, but it doens't help you tu survive the next 12 minutes without getting hurt. If you are really worried for your toes, the only solution is looking down.

[gniksic]

There are some visual observations one can profit from, although dancing with someone is decisive for me. Some are universal and style-invariant, some are not:

0. The embrace: some embraces simply look painful for me, independent of a particular style. But I'm a leader, so I choose the embrace, more or less. The followers might want to choose something that looks comfortable. Most of them do, here.

1. The facial expression and the whole body of the follower can show relaxation or a certain degree of stress. I admit, it does take a lot of experience to develop the ability to perceive this. This has nothing to do with the potential "bliss" or whatever, because sometimes the music can be so intense that the follower cannot express the bliss she is experiencing. The facial expression can bias the overall observation.

2. Assuming a relaxed follower, the leader will then also seem relaxed and the quality of the lead will express itself through a good musical interpretation, i.e. you will be able to recognize his particular style after a few songs. I've seen many good leaders look... confined... with bad followers. Not beginners, just bad followers. I know a follower who always seems tense... She's not a bad dancer, but some things are impossible to do with her.

<2.5. It boils down to the fact that you can only have a good idea of how good a couple looks like, as someone already pointed out... so it could be that 2. leads to 1. in some cases.>

3. Once relaxed, the moves. Oh yes, is is easier to see the bad dancers who move a lot, but crapily. But also, a wider spectrum of musically used steps/figures/... executed in a visually appealing way shows that the couple has the technique but also feels relaxed and confident enough to use them. (Of course, keeping in mind all the time that those steps are not the point here, but the relaxation and musicality that lead to them.)

4. Last, the musicality. And it is last for me, not because it is not important, but because it is the most important and also most difficult thing to evaluate, being the most subjective of all. And here's my question: Can you let go of your idea of musicality while looking at others? As many couples you can make, that many different musicalities you can get. I keep trying to shake off my own interpretation (the idea of how to dance to a song) while watching others and find it possible, but very hard to do. Listening to comments to someone's dancing, it seems not everyone is aware of this... I hope you'll realize what I'm talking about: "he SO didn't interpret that violin", "what music is he dancing to" or similar. There is a continuum of interpretations out there, for each and every song!

Regardless of the answer to that, it's always nice to see a follower express the layer of music I intentionally left out for her to fill in. I LOVE that.

5. Oh, forgot one thing: the floorcraft. Easy to spot, but mostly attributed to a good leader. However, those "unlead boleos" are a bigger red flag than an occational bump, IMO.

OK, this turned out too long. Sorry if I repeated some things already mentioned, I just wanted to condense my thoughts after looking at the thread for a few days...

[Orioza]

Quite often I see women with sour facial expressions. Most likely it means that their partner is not paying enough attention to them (read: doing completely his own thing) or that they have real trouble understanding him.

On the other hand, some people dance with "heavenly" faces. They either enjoy dancing altogether, no matter with whom they dance, or there is a true connection between the partners.

[bordertangoman]

Quite often I see women with sour facial expressions. Most likely it means that their partner is not paying enough attention to them (read: doing completely his own thing) or that they have real trouble understanding him.

On the other hand, some people dance with "heavenly" faces. They either enjoy dancing altogether, no matter with whom they dance, or there is a true connection between the partners.

of course you can still smile when your partner sticks her heel in your foot....

[Dave Bailey]

Quite often I see women with sour facial expressions. Most likely it means that their partner is not paying enough attention to them (read: doing completely his own thing) or that they have real trouble understanding him.
Or they're thinking about the chores at home, or they're worried about work, or they're concentrating, or...

On the other hand, some people dance with "heavenly" faces. They either enjoy dancing altogether, no matter with whom they dance, or there is a true connection between the partners.
Or they're pretending. Or they're thinking happy thoughts, or...

Basically, to quote the great Dr Gregory House, "everybody lies".

[AndaBien]

...Basically, to quote the great Dr Gregory House, "everybody lies".

I see dance as body language, which does not lie. Marcel Marceau supposedly said the one human quality he could not portray on stage was a lie.

[bordertangoman]

I see dance as body language, which does not lie. Marcel Marceau supposedly said the one human quality he could not portray on stage was a lie.

That cant be true; how does a mime artist convey that he cannot lie?

everything he portrayed wasnt there; so what else is that but a lie?

Andabien I am calling your bluff..:)

[opendoor]

Border, actually you´ve got not the foggiest idea of animal behaviour and ethology!

[bordertangoman]

Border, actually you´ve got not the foggiest idea of animal behaviour and ethology!

oh, you'd be surprised........but then in my experience, horses are far more straight forward than people; now they dont lie

[AndaBien]

...horses are far more straight forward than people; now they dont lie

Crows are known to lie. Well, at least act deceptively.

[bordertangoman]

squirrels too; they dont want other squirrels to find their nuts so they fake burying them...if they think they're being watched...

[Dave Bailey]

I see dance as body language, which does not lie.
So you think people are incapable of looking happy when they're not?

I disagree. Although I'd agree that lying with body language is more difficult, I don't believe it's impossible.

Marcel Marceau supposedly said the one human quality he could not portray on stage was a lie.
I honestly don't get that quote. At BTM says, he was a mime artist, his entire career was based on "lying" (pretence)... Can you explain?

[bastet]

I'm always surprised when I see comments about judging a follower's quality of dancing based on how she looks with a particular leader.

I think a followers technique can be heavily influenced by how her leader is leading (or how bad he is leading). I used to think that the old saying that a follower was "only as good as her leader" was bunk and that I should be able to practice good technique regardless, but I've seen videos of me dancing with leaders of varying quality and how it changes the way my own following technique comes out. So, I've come to think of this type of comment as similar to the ones that amount to saying if a lady wears Comme Il Faut, she must have what it takes.

Leaders with at least a certain amount of skill, OTOH, seem to be a little less influenced by dancing with a follower of less skill than a similar situation where a follower is dancing with a leader of less skill.

Mostly, the only way to really find out of you like a persons dance is to actually give them a try. Some people you'll gel with, and some you won't.

[Zoopsia59]

oh, you'd be surprised........but then in my experience, horses are far more straight forward than people; now they dont lie

Cats on the other hand don't actually lie.. they just smugly refuse to fess up to the truth.

[Zoopsia59]

I see dance as body language, which does not lie. Marcel Marceau supposedly said the one human quality he could not portray on stage was a lie.

That sounds great as a philosophical concept, but in reality, dancers lie all the time. When a dancer who is injured performs on stage as though nothing is wrong, and successfully masks the pain, is that not a "lie"? In fact, isn't the performance itself a "lie" if the dancer is playing a role totally unlike herself? Where do you draw the line between the body language conveying exactly what someone wants it to convey vs conveying some sort of immutable "truth"?

[Zoopsia59]

Or they're thinking about the chores at home, or they're worried about work, or they're concentrating, or..
Or they're pretending. Or they're thinking happy thoughts, or...



Or they're totally relaxed and the relaxed state of their facial muscles is a slight downturn of the mouth.

The whole thing about how it takes less muscles to smile is baloney.. what takes the least muscles is to let the mouth (and face) rest. People's resting expression depends on the structure of the bones and tissue, not some universal definition of emotional expression.

[Zoopsia59]

Crows are known to lie. Well, at least act deceptively.

Ah... so crows are cats with wings. No wonder so many cats are black.

[Zoopsia59]

Mostly, the only way to really find out of you like a persons dance is to actually give them a try. Some people you'll gel with, and some you won't.

ITA with this statement (and believe I said exactly that upthread)

To determine anything by watching, you have to watch the person dancing with multiple partners. You also have to watch them as a couple, not just watch the person you are assessing. It helps immensely if you can watch the person dance with partners that you already know well and have made your own determination of as partners. In the end, though, you have to dance with the person you're trying to evaluate.

Isn't that what tango is about? Isn't that where at least SOME of the fun comes from? Dancing with partners that are totally new to you and learning who they are? Experiencing something new that opens up all kinds of unexplored possibilities to you? Maybe some of you are in large communities and constantly assessing new partners and getting hurt on the dance floor has gotten untenable.

But speaking as someone in a small community who has to travel to dance with new partners (and rarely gets to do so) I can tell you that it gets really old dancing with the same people ALL the time. It also adversely affects your progress as a dancer. Not to mention that there are likely to be only a few "favorite" partners so when they don't show up, the evening feels like a waste.

I've also discovered that my favorite partners aren't necessarily the leaders that some of my friends consider their faves, so in the long run, there's no way to really know except actually dancing with a person (and sometimes it means dancing with them on more than one occasion since everyone has off nights). Anything else is just a guess and could be way off base.

[AndaBien]

That sounds great as a philosophical concept, but in reality, dancers lie all the time. When a dancer who is injured performs on stage as though nothing is wrong, and successfully masks the pain, is that not a "lie"? In fact, isn't the performance itself a "lie" if the dancer is playing a role totally unlike herself? Where do you draw the line between the body language conveying exactly what someone wants it to convey vs conveying some sort of immutable "truth"?

There are, of course, great performers who can make you believe almost anything, when they are on stage. Off stage, I think you can tell a lot about a person just by watching them walk down a hall. You can know something about their personality, in general, and also about their emotions at that moment. You may be mistaken, but more often than not you could be right on.

At a milonga, where people are not performing (at least they are not onstage), you can tell a lot about a person by watching them dance. You can even tell if they are performing. You can also know something about their partner.

If I see a woman glancing around the room while she dances, with every partner she has, at every milonga I see her at, I know for sure that I do not want to dance with her. If she has a look on her face as though she's reading a technical paper, and she always has that look, I can be fairly sure that she's reading the leads and trying to get them "right". That's probably not going to work well for me. If I see a woman who usually looks like she's having a pleasant dream, or savoring a flavor, or enjoying some great music, I become interested in dancing with her, because she' enjoying the moment.

Could I be mistaken? Certainly. Could I be right? Often.

[bastet]

ITA with this statement (and believe I said exactly that upthread)

To determine anything by watching, you have to watch the person dancing with multiple partners. You also have to watch them as a couple, not just watch the person you are assessing. It helps immensely if you can watch the person dance with partners that you already know well and have made your own determination of as partners. In the end, though, you have to dance with the person you're trying to evaluate.

Isn't that what tango is about? Isn't that where at least SOME of the fun comes from? Dancing with partners that are totally new to you and learning who they are? Experiencing something new that opens up all kinds of unexplored possibilities to you? Maybe some of you are in large communities and constantly assessing new partners and getting hurt on the dance floor has gotten untenable.

But speaking as someone in a small community who has to travel to dance with new partners (and rarely gets to do so) I can tell you that it gets really old dancing with the same people ALL the time. It also adversely affects your progress as a dancer. Not to mention that there are likely to be only a few "favorite" partners so when they don't show up, the evening feels like a waste.

I've also discovered that my favorite partners aren't necessarily the leaders that some of my friends consider their faves, so in the long run, there's no way to really know except actually dancing with a person (and sometimes it means dancing with them on more than one occasion since everyone has off nights). Anything else is just a guess and could be way off base.

yeah- you did, and I agree for the most part.

I do look at people dancing with multiple partners (ie, people I am unfamiliar dancing with) and some it'll be easy to tell it's not going to work well and others you just have to give a try...

Coming from a small community myself, I also agree with your other statement about how your dance and dance progress is affected.

[LadyLeader]

High Skill + Music = enjoyable dance ... is not necessary true. When I'm occasionally following I want a leader who has moderate skill but musicality of same sort as mine. Then I can relax and let the music carry us on the path he chooses. A skilled leader pushes me out from the enjoyable area to the try-to-survive area and it is not worth it. When following I just want to enjoy; as a leader I am interested to challenge my comfort zone.

[AndaBien]

... A skilled leader pushes me out from the enjoyable area to the try-to-survive area and it is not worth it. ..

That's not my idea of a skilled leader.

... as a leader I am interested to challenge my comfort zone.

Fine, as long as you don't push your partner out of her comfort zone.

[LadyLeader]

I'm always surprised when I see comments about judging a follower's quality of dancing based on how she looks with a particular leader.

At a festival it is the only way to get an idea about how our one tanda future could be. To look what dance style she accepts and how comfortable she is with that leader.

Sometimes my followers tell how much they like a style of another follower: She is dancing very well! But when dancing with them later I can not agree. The difficulty here is that followers seems to trace certain skill markers which are not necessarily valid for leaders.

[twnkltoz]

There was a leader at the milonga on Saturday from out of town. I watched him to see if I could tell whether he was a good dancer or not. I first saw him with a beginner follower, and I couldn't quite tell. His steps were very simple, but he seemed to lead well--his arms were connected to his chest and she seemed to do what he wanted. His upper body was very quiet, but they were moving together and doing the simple steps in a connected way. Then I saw him dance with someone more advanced, and wow...he really turned it on! What a gentleman and a good leader--he tuned his dancing to his partner. I got to dance with him toward the end of the evening, and he started out (as a leader should with a follower new to him) with some simple basics, then tried more and more with me as I followed each thing. There were a couple of things I missed, of course, but all in all it was an extraordinarily fun and connected tanda. Yum. I gladly called it a night on that note! (also, my legs were jello after several yummy tandas.)

Then last night, I was at another milonga, and Darren Lees was there, in town becuase he performed in a show the local people put on the night before. He danced with several ladies last night of varying levels and was an absolute gentleman with each of them, leading them in what he thought they could handle and making them all look great. I was lucky enough to get a tanda with him toward the end and it rocked my world. Again, if you didn't know who he was, you could see the quality in his dance--smooth, body and arms quiet, yet he and his partner moved together, his partners looked comfortable and happy, and they didn't stumble around. Still being a Tango newbie, I don't know how well known he is around the world, but he's invited here for shows and workshops often.

As for facial expressions, with some partners I'm very relaxed and concentrating on technique or styling or whatever while trying to let my body just follow my partner. In those cases, my face tends to relax into its most neutral expression with the occasional smile if I mess up, he messes up, or we do something unusual or particularly cool, but despite my facial expression I'm having a wonderful time. Other partners require more concentration, while others yet just make me smile. I *try* to keep at least a small smile on my face so I look happy yet not goofy, but that's the least of my problems, so I hope I'm not being judged by that alone.

[LadyLeader]

Fine, as long as you don't push your partner out of her comfort zone.

Some followers love if you put them out of the comfort zone. Sometimes I can also tease with my steps a specific follower who has the skill but is afraid.

[bastet]

High Skill + Music = enjoyable dance ... is not necessary true. When I'm occasionally following I want a leader who has moderate skill but musicality of same sort as mine. Then I can relax and let the music carry us on the path he chooses. A skilled leader pushes me out from the enjoyable area to the try-to-survive area and it is not worth it. When following I just want to enjoy; as a leader I am interested to challenge my comfort zone.

then why would you do to your followers what you don't like having done to you when you follow? Perhaps they also want that, just to enjoy....

whether I like to go out of my comfort zone often depends on my leader and the type of music playing, and also the crowd conditions.

[LadyLeader]

then why would you do to your followers what you don't like having done to you when you follow? Perhaps they also want that, just to enjoy....

When I do my choice as a follower I go for my existing skill as a follower (low) and my wish for a musical tanda. Therefore I today say NO to skilled dancers. It is also my responsibility/choice to pick a leader who matches my dreams and condition for this moment.

As a leader then; When dance is flowing the steps are coming automaticly to the music and I don't need to think, I do not have time to think anything but just concentrate on the music. If she is on the same level or accepts my lower level we can get nice experience.

If a follower can not take those steps I create automaticly I need to activate my brain and adapt my dance. Usually I try to *hear* what this follower wants but this process takes some resources and the dance is less on music then.

The most horrifying thing is when you ask a follower on higher skill level and with NEED to play it out. I can't produce 60 ganchos/m. I must learn to see what the other can and needs and then ask for a dance; try to create a balance between us . (the need can be more excitement, flow, complicated steps, simple steps, musicality, ......)

With other words I think I need to know what I want and enjoy and then try to reach a partner with corresponding dreams.

[bordertangoman]

Some followers love if you put them out of the comfort zone. Sometimes I can also tease with my steps a specific follower who has the skill but is afraid.

surely that's what a tanda is for;
song 1; find the limits of her comfort zone
song 2; take her out of her comfort zone
song 3; dance out of your comfort zone.

[dchester]

surely that's what a tanda is for;
song 1; find the limits of her comfort zone
song 2; take her out of her comfort zone
song 3; dance out of your comfort zone.
Maybe I'd do that for a high energy nuevo tanda, but with a "connection" tanda, I'd want us both to stay in our comfort zone.

[dchester]

The most horrifying thing is when you ask a follower on higher skill level and with NEED to play it out. I can't produce 60 ganchos/m. I must learn to see what the other can and needs and then ask for a dance; try to create a balance between us . (the need can be more excitement, flow, complicated steps, simple steps, musicality, ......)

With other words I think I need to know what I want and enjoy and then try to reach a partner with corresponding dreams.
How are you able to determine when a follower needs 60 ganchos/m? I get that it was hyperbole, but how do you determine that the follower needs a bunch of crazy stuff? Does the the crazy stuff fit the music? That's what I'd be more interested in. If it doesn't fit the music, just go with stuff you can do, that does fit the music. IMO, that's a good way to give the follower a nice dance.

[twnkltoz]

surely that's what a tanda is for;
song 1; find the limits of her comfort zone
song 2; take her out of her comfort zone
song 3; dance out of your comfort zone.

I like that. One song to get to know each other and just relax and enjoy, then the next two to learn something new and find out that Yes, I Can! do these really cool moves he's leading me into. Although, I think if every tanda were like that it would be exhausting. Luckily, there are the leaders who do the same thing every time so you get a break. ;)

[opendoor]

Has someone of you leaders around here already made a real mistake by remote diagnosis of the dancing skills?

[LadyLeader]

How are you able to determine when a follower needs 60 ganchos/m?

dchester the most clear case is when she starts to do ganchos and boleos without my lead and without any concern about the surroundings.

I think even more subtile signs for dissatisfaction are quite clear during a tanda. I know these:
When a follower starts to sing during a dance (understimulated?) I usually do more/faster steps.
When she suggests more difficult steps my responce depends on how the day has been.

I agree with you about the value of comfortable tandas because only then both of us can totally focus on music.

[pascal]

A skilled leader pushes me out from the enjoyable area to the try-to-survive area

Hey I must be good then. The most commonly heard word by my followers (the ones who dance with me for the first time) is "au secours!". Many of them come back, though.

[bordertangoman]

Has someone of you leaders around here already made a real mistake by remote diagnosis of the dancing skills?

I danced with someone who is a good performance dancer ( ie stage) but I think she was having a hard night ( maybe breaking up with her partner - their earlier performance was clunky in the extreme). I dont doubt her skills, they just werent evident that night...

[Dave Bailey]

dchester the most clear case is when she starts to do ganchos and boleos without my lead and without any concern about the surroundings.
Ah. That's when I advance rapidly in the direction of Away.

[Zoopsia59]

Has someone of you leaders around here already made a real mistake by remote diagnosis of the dancing skills?

They might know they made a mistake when they actually do dance with someone who turns out to be a disappointment, but how would they know they made a mistake of omission (not dancing with someone who would have made a good partner) ?

[twnkltoz]

They might know they made a mistake when they actually do dance with someone who turns out to be a disappointment, but how would they know they made a mistake of omission (not dancing with someone who would have made a good partner) ?

When your buddy dances with her and says, "Wow! She was awesome. You should have danced with her before she left to go back to Europe, never to return."

[Zoopsia59]

surely that's what a tanda is for;
song 1; find the limits of her comfort zone
song 2; take her out of her comfort zone
song 3; dance out of your comfort zone.

Your formula assumes that the leader is the more skilled dancer.. perhaps the theoretical leader under discussion is not able to find limits to the follower's ability due to his/her own limits as a leader. What's the formula then?

I ask, because using this formula in that scenario would probably result in the leader creating a dance that is seriously uncomfortable for both partners, and would not be something the follower would want to repeat... ever.

Song one... find the limits of her comfort zone... make sure it really is the follower's limit you have found! If you don't find a limit (and know not to project your own limits onto her as "her" mistakes) stay primarily within your own comfort zone, with maybe an occasional small experiment.

Unless it's a practica and you know she's willing to help you work with new moves. Then you can go all out.

[Subliminal]

Has someone of you leaders around here already made a real mistake by remote diagnosis of the dancing skills?

For the most part I do not judge by look. Too many variables. And one of my tango goals is to be able to dance with anyone and have it be interesting and fun.

Ok. Actually, I just thought of a time when I got burned... I saw this girl dancing, smiling, and having a good time. She also seemed to have a good sense of musicality, so I had to dance with her. Turns out, she liked back-leading and used her partners as props and boleo stands. :-P

[Zoopsia59]

How are you able to determine when a follower needs 60 ganchos/m? I get that it was hyperbole, but how do you determine that the follower needs a bunch of crazy stuff?

I'm just guessing, but maybe it could be determined by the follower simply getting less and less connected as a dance goes on? The connection should deepen as the tanda progresses. If the connection gets worse, it probably means one of two things:

The dance is too complicated and the follower is getting frustrated/annoyed/injured.

The dance is too simple or repetitive and the follower is getting bored.

(note that "too complicated" or "too simple" are relative terms as defined by that particular follower at that time to that music. I'm not trying to state an absolute.)

[Zoopsia59]

When your buddy dances with her and says, "Wow! She was awesome. You should have danced with her before she left to go back to Europe, never to return."

Haha.

[Zoopsia59]

For the most part I do not judge by look. Too many variables. And one of my tango goals is to be able to dance with anyone and have it be interesting and fun.

A worthy goal and far more fun (and useful) to strive for than all this guesswork and evaluation of others. It basically means you feel you have a large responsibility for how the dance goes rather than just looking for the partners who will please you. Taking that responsibility also increases your chances of having a good time! Think about it, if you have the ability to create a interesting, engaging and connected dance with almost anyone, you will have an interesting, engaging and connected evening when you go out.

I really wish people would spend more time evaluating how they are as partners and less time worrying about the "flaws" of others who "don't measure up".

Seriously, social dancing should come with the attitude:
"How can I make this the most fabulous dance ever for my partner"

not:
"Will this person measure up to my high standards that I demand of anyone I deign to dance with?"

Ok. Actually, I just thought of a time when I got burned... I saw this girl dancing, smiling, and having a good time. She also seemed to have a good sense of musicality, so I had to dance with her. Turns out, she liked back-leading and used her partners as props and boleo stands. :-P

Yeah... I saw a woman having a blast on the dance floor a few weeks back.. She was smiling, laughing, having the most fab time EVER. She was also drunk as a skunk and a hazard to everyone else out there.

[dchester]

When a follower starts to sing during a dance (understimulated?) I usually do more/faster steps. I've never had that happen to me. I suppose my reaction would depend on whether I thought she was singing well or not.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[bastet]

Maybe I'd do that for a high energy nuevo tanda, but with a "connection" tanda, I'd want us both to stay in our comfort zone.

that's probably abut what'd I'd want to.

[LadyLeader]

Seriously, social dancing should come with the attitude:"How can I make this the most fabulous dance ever for my partner"

When thinking a dance situation I have in mind an old type of scale with two bowls and a T-formed construction keeping them in the air. I see the leader and follower represented by the bowls and the stick keeping them up is the music. When dancing we seek for balance around the music. And we both are concentrated on music!

I suppose we are looking for different things at different stages on tango road but today for me the balance in skill and attitude is important. I want a follower who can share a balance with me when we are clinging and whirling with the music.

I feel respect and gratitude for those followers who match my level today and who want to dance with me but I am not taking care of them when dancing. We are sharing a dance equally, totally focusing on the music above us!

Does this make my need of evaluation more understandable?

[bordertangoman]

Your formula assumes that the leader is the more skilled dancer.. . this is theoretically possible even for me;)

.perhaps the theoretical leader under discussion is not able to find limits to the follower's ability due to his/her own limits as a leader. What's the formula then? .



Formula is KISSAM: Keep It Simple Stupid and Musical

[doornail]

I think even more subtile signs for dissatisfaction are quite clear during a tanda. I know these:
When a follower starts to sing during a dance (understimulated?) I usually do more/faster steps.

I'm normally a lurker around here but I couldn't resist this. Followers, if you start to sing during a dance is it a sign of dissatisfaction? I always take singing as a good thing -- in fact I love it when it happens.

Just wanted to check that I haven't completely misinterpreted this and missed lots of 'cries for help' over the years! Everyone's different, of course...

[UKDancer]

I always take singing as a good thing -- in fact I love it when it happens.

Me too! At the very least, it suggests that my partner is aware that there IS music, and has made some connection with it.

Of course, if they're humming a different song, you know you're in trouble ...

And if you've been 'lurking' anyway, perhaps it's out of place, but welcome to DF.

[AndaBien]

Maybe I'd do that for a high energy nuevo tanda, but with a "connection" tanda, I'd want us both to stay in our comfort zone.

I agree. It's not necessary to go beyond ones comfort zone in order to have a great dance. Sometimes it's even counter productive.

[AndaBien]

... if you start to sing during a dance is it a sign of dissatisfaction? I always take singing as a good thing -- in fact I love it when it happens...

I don't interpret it as dissatisfaction, rather as a sign of distraction. I don't think it's possible for my partner to sing and still give full attention to the dance I am trying to give her. I don't think she, or I, could sing any more than we could talk and still give full attention to the dance.

[dchester]

A question to the followers:

Have any of you ever starting singing during a tanda, and if so, was it because you were really enjoying yourself, or was it because you were bored?

OK, I guess it's really a couple questions, but you get the idea (I'm trying to find out if I've been missing out on something).

:cool:

[twnkltoz]

I never sing in public, but I can't talk and dance a good dance at the same time, other than the occasional "nice!" or "well led!" but if he's really keeping me on my toes, I can't even do that. The only ones I can converse with (I know, you're not supposed to, but if they start it I go along) are the beginners who don't do much. Even that's a struggle for me, but maybe singing takes less brain power than talking if you've heard the song a million times? Heck, with some leaders I don't have the breath to spare for talking or singing, let alone brain power.

[Zoopsia59]

I'm normally a lurker around here but I couldn't resist this. Followers, if you start to sing during a dance is it a sign of dissatisfaction? I always take singing as a good thing -- in fact I love it when it happens.

Just wanted to check that I haven't completely misinterpreted this and missed lots of 'cries for help' over the years! Everyone's different, of course...

I would thnk that if the follower is singing, it shows an unusual level of familiarity with the music playing, and that should be a good thing.

I suppose if she's singing a different song, that would indicate a problem you need to address!

[Zoopsia59]

Me too! At the very least, it suggests that my partner is aware that there IS music, and has made some connection with it.

Of course, if they're humming a different song, you know you're in trouble ...

And if you've been 'lurking' anyway, perhaps it's out of place, but welcome to DF.

oops... should have read ahead... UKD beat me to it!

[Zoopsia59]

A question to the followers:

Have any of you ever starting singing during a tanda, and if so, was it because you were really enjoying yourself, or was it because you were bored?

OK, I guess it's really a couple questions, but you get the idea (I'm trying to find out if I've been missing out on something).

:cool:

I don't know the lyrics to AT music (and don't speak Spanish) I have been known to sing along to cortinas though. ;)

[Zoopsia59]

I never sing in public, but I can't talk and dance a good dance at the same time, other than the occasional "nice!" or "well led!" but if he's really keeping me on my toes, I can't even do that. The only ones I can converse with (I know, you're not supposed to, but if they start it I go along) are the beginners who don't do much. Even that's a struggle for me, but maybe singing takes less brain power than talking if you've heard the song a million times? Heck, with some leaders I don't have the breath to spare for talking or singing, let alone brain power.
I can sing and dance at the same time, but I don't know if I can sing and follow (a partnered improvised social dance) at the same time. I've never had the opportunity since I don't know any of the lyrics to the songs typically played.

[twnkltoz]

I might be able to sing Tango to Evora while following...

[bastet]

I'll only sing if someone is singing with me...you wouldn't want to hear me sing by myself! (And usually it's just something we are familiar with or find amusing for a moment, not a whole song, like Biagi Cielito Mio where it's good until you start going "Ay, ay, ay, ay, canta y no llores...")

[bastet]

I might be able to sing Tango to Evora while following...

la la la la la la...lalalalala... :)

[Temza]

A question to the followers:

Have any of you ever starting singing during a tanda, and if so, was it because you were really enjoying yourself, or was it because you were bored?

How odd. I *always* sing in my head when I dance and humm the tune if I know/suspect that the leader doesn't mind. I stop singing in my head when I am NOT enjoying the dance.
Interesting that Joaquin Amenabar believes that singing while dancing is a crucial tool in teaching people to dance musically

[bordertangoman]

How odd. I *always* sing in my head when I dance and humm the tune if I know/suspect that the leader doesn't mind. I stop singing in my head when I am NOT enjoying the dance.
Interesting that Joaquin Amenabar believes that singing while dancing is a crucial tool in teaching people to dance musically

while in agreement with the above, one of my favourite dancers is a music teacher. we have a special embrace; her right hand is clamped over my mouth....:(

[JohnEm]

How odd. I *always* sing in my head when I dance and humm the tune if I know/suspect that the leader doesn't mind. I stop singing in my head when I am NOT enjoying the dance.
Hope you don't mind me saying so but I find this extremely . . . odd!

This is the most connected partner dance of all yet as a follower you
are choosing which part of a multi-layered tune to individually and
separately concentrate on. Surely you should be "listening" (silently!)
to your partner and the tune.

In my experience people who sing in my ear are not connected with me
and by such singing are overriding my interpretation of the music. In jive
such intrusion to connection is sometimes called "noise" even when it's
silent (bouncing arms for instance), your singing is noisy "noise"!

So please don't sing in my ear but concentrate on working out what
part of the tune your partner is dancing to, if he's musical it will keep
changing during the dance and you'll be kept plenty occupied.


Interesting that Joaquin Amenabar believes that singing while dancing is a crucial tool in teaching people to dance musically

I have no experience of him but singing while dancing isn't crucial at all -
it's off-putting - but listening when dancing is crucial.

However, whatever it takes to develop connection with the music is fine.
I'm never sure that an academic approach is appropriate nor musicality
being taught by musicians who have an analytical and technical perception
that dancers dancing in the moment don't need.

Lots of listening away from the dance floor is key for me.
It's an alien music to most of us when we first hear it, when argentines
started dancing they already were familiar with it and presumably those
who started dancing were moved to dance by the music. In other words
they had dance and musical connection within them.

So first you have to find your way of connecting to the music and then
when and if the music moves you to move, move on your own.
To move with a partner, first you have to be able to move yourself.

[LadyLeader]

In my experience people who sing in my ear are not connected with me and by such singing are overriding my interpretation of the music.

Some of these situations could actually be musical back leading, couldn't it?

[bordertangoman]

Hope you don't mind me saying so but I find this extremely . . . odd!

This is the most connected partner dance of all yet as a follower you
are choosing which part of a multi-layered tune to individually and
separately concentrate on. Surely you should be "listening" (silently!)
to your partner and the tune.

.

This IMO is odd; one of the loveliest dances I had a lady was singing along to Flores de Alma

and I can hum, and listen to the music and my partner; come on any professional musician listens to what the other instruments are doing while he/she plays; why cant us mere mortals do the same?

[doornail]

It's fascinating that people have such a different opinion on it. It's so fundamental to me that I just assumed everyone thought the same. I don't find it distracting, and the people I dance with who sing (or hum) along are often the ones I feel the best connection with.

I guess it's just another one of those things that everyone 'adjusts' to. I imagine it's pretty obvious that I enjoy my partner singing along. If they're doing so a bit nervously then I often hum along too for a while, as a sign of 'I'm okay with it if you are'! Of course, I can't hold a note at all well, so if I've ended up singing along I often feel the need to apologise at the end of the song...

By the way -- having somebody talking to me during the dance reduces me to complete incompetence, so it's definitely a different bit of the brain being used.

And if you've been 'lurking' anyway, perhaps it's out of place, but welcome to DF.

Thanks!

[newbie]

The same way as I smile only when the follower makes a mistake, I sing only when irritated by something.
Move, move, fat guy, my danceline you are blockin
If you stay in my way then I will start pushin

[Temza]

It's fascinating that people have such a different opinion on it. It's so fundamental to me that I just assumed everyone thought the same. I don't find it distracting, and the people I dance with who sing (or hum) along are often the ones I feel the best connection with.

Can't agree more.

[bordertangoman]

fOOTNOTE: "Sing along with CARLOS DANTE and JULIO MARTEL and the Alfredo de Angelis orchestra"

http://www.planet-tango.com/lyrics/flores.htm

[LadyLeader]

Interesting that Joaquin Amenabar believes that singing while dancing is a crucial tool in teaching people to dance musically

... as you said Temza: teaching people to dance musically.

I love Amenabars book and I love his teaching. He really put me kicking!

When I am listening music at home I don't sing so much because it doesn't give me any feeling/feedback but I wave my arms and body because it expresses the musik for me better and helps me to fine new layers in musical structure. At milonga I keep my body and arms more quiet! ;)

It has been interesting to read the different opinions in this humming thing. It seems to go together with what kind of dance you are looking for. I am laughing quite a lot at milongas but when music starts for my dance I concentrate/listen on it as totally as I can for that time being.

[JohnEm]

This IMO is odd; one of the loveliest dances I had a lady was singing along to Flores de Alma
Interesting that your comment is about a Vals and not a tango.

and I can hum, and listen to the music and my partner; come on any professional musician listens to what the other instruments are doing while he/she plays; why cant us mere mortals do the same?
Musicians are playing, not moving, while listening;
dancers are moving while listening and not playing.


I love Amenabars book and I love his teaching. He really put me kicking!

Whatever that means it doesn't seem very tango like.

I downloaded Amenabar's his example chapter and video.
His video starts with two dancers moving to different parts of the music
separately and then sort of together but handing the dance backwards
and forwards between the two of them. But it isn't social tango, seems
to me his teaching is more appropriate to choreography, choreographers
and the visual tango arts.

When I am listening music at home I don't sing so much because it doesn't give me any feeling/feedback but I wave my arms and body because it expresses the musik for me better and helps me to fine new layers in musical structure.
Why wave your arms and body about when this is about a tango connection
with tango music? There's nothing wrong with experimenting alone but
the way and the what of doing it can either be detrimental (ok not helpful)
or beneficial to future partner dancing. So why not move your whole body
freestyle and allow you legs/feet to follow your body and the music?

[LadyLeader]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyLeader http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=905813#post905813)
When I am listening music at home I don't sing so much because it doesn't give me any feeling/feedback but I wave my arms and body because it expresses the musik for me better and helps me to fine new layers in musical structure.


Why wave your arms and body about when this is about a tango connection
with tango music? There's nothing wrong with experimenting alone but
the way and the what of doing it can either be detrimental (ok not helpful)
or beneficial to future partner dancing. So why not move your whole body
freestyle and allow you legs/feet to follow your body and the music?


This waving arms/upper body training is entirely for developing musicality in me, to create an intense bond between my inner and the music and to HEAR more. To use whole body is too rough. With arms, hands and fingers I can express much more detailed the sounds I hear, variation in length, dynamics, emotional load and so on...

Somewhere in life I lost my childhood ability to memorize/recognize music but when I SEE my hands doing same kind of movements as for a while ago I understand that here I have the part A again! It seems to stimulate my totally rusty musical memory and give me back fragments of that ability. It helps me also to hear more - even my musically well educated friends start to use their body when they want to sort out a difficult part of music.

I feel that as a leader I need a strong own musicality so it can get my body to move as well as my follower's.

[LadyLeader]

I downloaded Amenabar's his example chapter and video.
His video starts with two dancers moving to different parts of the music
separately and then sort of together but handing the dance backwards
and forwards between the two of them. But it isn't social tango, seems
to me his teaching is more appropriate to choreography, choreographers
and the visual tango arts.

Ameanabar doesn't teach dance but exclusively musicality in his book. Though some steps are needed to test/show the phenomenons :)

I understand his idea here is that a couple doesn't need to take all the steps simultaneusly but some of the musical elements can be expresed by follower and the next notes by the leader but the whole song is still a shared experience.

[Temza]

a lot of Argentine leaders in BA hum the tune while dancing, some of them might ask politely if their humming bothers the follower. I love it! I hum with them in unison, and they like it too.

[JohnEm]

This waving arms/upper body training is entirely for developing musicality in me, to create an intense bond between my inner and the music and to HEAR more. To use whole body is too rough. With arms, hands and fingers I can express much more detailed the sounds I hear, variation in length, dynamics, emotional load and so on...

Somewhere in life I lost my childhood ability to memorize/recognize music but when I SEE my hands doing same kind of movements as for a while ago I understand that here I have the part A again! It seems to stimulate my totally rusty musical memory and give me back fragments of that ability. It helps me also to hear more - even my musically well educated friends start to use their body when they want to sort out a difficult part of music.

I feel that as a leader I need a strong own musicality so it can get my body to move as well as my follower's.
Thanks for an interesting insight. I can't help thinking though that what you
are seeking is a conscious and thinking ability to hear the music whereas
in (social) dance what you need is a sub-conscious, almost intuitive ability.

I never lost the musical interest, it never has been on a technical
level, but I'd lost the ability to move and discovered it again through
the medium of other dances before tango. My experience is that there is
little reason to separate the moving from the musical and both can be
acquired together. That doesn't teach you to dance in partnership but
by bringing your best of musical movement to the partnership you can
concentrate on finding out what can and cannot be done together.

Ameanabar doesn't teach dance but exclusively musicality in his book. Though some steps are needed to test/show the phenomenons :smile:

So it's a non-dancing professor of music teaching musical appreciation
to dancers?

I understand his idea here is that a couple doesn't need to take all the steps simultaneusly but some of the musical elements can be expresed by follower and the next notes by the leader but the whole song is still a shared experience.
It's an academic tango of the performing visual arts and of choreography.
What I've seen in the example is an unhelpful distraction.

They are dancing open, there is no (physical) connection, they move, then
she dances alone, they move and she dances alone again. he is little more
than a support mechanism. She grasps his upper right arm. they have toned
left (man) and right arms as another support frame. He doesn't seem to be
leading though it is a choreographed demonstration.

The tango of my preference is the shared dancing of the senses and the
music together in the moment. As is often the case here, your idea of tango
and mine are not the same.

It's perverse that tango, once criticised by ballroom onlookers in lands afar
from Buenos Aires as being too close, too sensual, even too sexy, has been
physically desensualised by Argentines themselves in order to sell a
diluted visual expression of tango overseas and to bring in tourist revenue.

[JohnEm]

a lot of Argentine leaders in BA hum the tune while dancing, some of them might ask politely if their humming bothers the follower. I love it! I hum with them in unison, and they like it too.
Well I'd never know that of course - maybe they can because of years
of familiarity which we don't have. When I've fallen into the trap myself
I found that my own humming/singing distracted me from hearing and
responding to other layers of the music. My experience is that if you hum
the melody, the melody is likely to what you dance, or otherwise it may
become a somewhat mechanical dance of the underlying rhythm.

We are generalising somewhat here and different songs may provoke
different responses of course. However the question was about followers
singing, not leaders which is likely to be a different dynamic altogether.
I liked LadyLeaders suggestion that followers singing/humming (alone)
might be a form of musical back-leading!

[Temza]

I liked LadyLeaders suggestion that followers singing/humming (alone)
might be a form of musical back-leading!

very well may be. but the fact is that quite a lot of leaders like followers to hum, so I don't see the reason stop doing this. of course, if i'm not sure in my leader's reaction, i will hum in my head

[JohnEm]

very well may be. but the fact is that quite a lot of leaders like followers to hum, so I don't see the reason stop doing this. of course, if i'm not sure in my leader's reaction, i will hum in my head
Of course you can do whatever you wish, especially if the leader is
humming/singing/distracted himself, but here's a personal experience.

I was dancing jive, an open dance with physical springy tension arms and
visual (eye contact) connections plus a rhythmical connection via a simple
step on every beat while moving. My partner seems distracted - she could
clearly dance but the rhythmical side was disjointed and strangely variable
yet purposeful. Eventually I had to ask what it was she was dancing to and
she gaily answered she was listening/dancing the melody and always did.

Latin type dances (jives/swing, rumba, cha cha) are mainly mirrored
pattern dances so very different to tango but I'm sure you get the message
that even humming silently is distracting of your concentration
on the musical variability and your partner's/leader's interpretation of it.

[Temza]

even humming silently is distracting of your concentration
on the musical variability and your partner's/leader's interpretation of it.
this is not my experience. humming, silently or not, increases my concentration on the leader and the music, places me completely in the moment and screens out all external stimuli.

we will have to agree to disagree.

[AndaBien]

this is not my experience. humming, silently or not, increases my concentration on the leader and the music, places me completely in the moment and screens out all external stimuli...

Interesting comment, and I know other dancers think the same thing.

I think of humming as a left-brain activity, that is, there is a definite sequence to the tune that the hummer must know, and the hummer must generate the correct note (or close to it) in order to hum along.

As a leader, I admit that I am often in a left-brain mode, because I am trying to put my partners movements to the music; rhythm and melody. Other times I am in a right-brain mode, because I am responding to my partner or other situations on the floor.

I don't do a dance that has standard sequences in it, or else, when I do my customary sequences I always try to make them fit the moment perfectly, so they are never the same on a subtle level. I like my partners to be fully in a right-brain mode, so they can pick up the nuances I am trying to provide.

One of my favorite partners use to hum often, and when she was humming I could tell that it was distracting her from the details of my lead. When she quit humming our dance became more connected. I haven't heard her hum for years. Maybe she still does with other partners.

I understand that there are shades of gray between left and right-brain modes, and I understand that people are probably rarely in either mode purely.

I also understand that some leaders are mostly in a left-brain mode, in which case it's probably fine for their partners to be also.

For me, I am very focused on the music, but trying to also generate it myself would be a distraction from trying to generate the dance and transmit it to my partner.

[dchester]

Interesting comment, and I know other dancers think the same thing.

I think of humming as a left-brain activity, that is, there is a definite sequence to the tune that the hummer must know, and the hummer must generate the correct note (or close to it) in order to hum along.

As a leader, I admit that I am often in a left-brain mode, because I am trying to put my partners movements to the music; rhythm and melody. Other times I am in a right-brain mode, because I am responding to my partner or other situations on the floor.

I don't do a dance that has standard sequences in it, or else, when I do my customary sequences I always try to make them fit the moment perfectly, so they are never the same on a subtle level. I like my partners to be fully in a right-brain mode, so they can pick up the nuances I am trying to provide.

One of my favorite partners use to hum often, and when she was humming I could tell that it was distracting her from the details of my lead. When she quit humming our dance became more connected. I haven't heard her hum for years. Maybe she still does with other partners.

I understand that there are shades of gray between left and right-brain modes, and I understand that people are probably rarely in either mode purely.

I also understand that some leaders are mostly in a left-brain mode, in which case it's probably fine for their partners to be also.

For me, I am very focused on the music, but trying to also generate it myself would be a distraction from trying to generate the dance and transmit it to my partner.
I remember years back about one of the differences between women and men is that women tend to use both sides of their brain a lot more than men do. Most of the original studies of left vs right brain activities were with men, and they were quite surprised year later when the results were significantly different for women.

[AndaBien]

I remember years back about one of the differences between women and men is that women tend to use both sides of their brain a lot more than men do. Most of the original studies of left vs right brain activities were with men, and they were quite surprised year later when the results were significantly different for women.

I think some people have a greater ability to focus their attention (concentrate - is that the same thing?) than others.

I also imagine that focusing is a zero sum equation. That is, the more you are to the right, the less you are to the left. If you are in the center, you're not doing either very much.

[Zoopsia59]

I remember years back about one of the differences between women and men is that women tend to use both sides of their brain a lot more than men do. Most of the original studies of left vs right brain activities were with men, and they were quite surprised year later when the results were significantly different for women.

As I understand it, the functions of each side of the brain are duplicated in the other side of the brain in women more-so than men. That means that women don't need to use both sides of the brain to do "left" and "right" brain brain tasks simultaneously. To do the same 2 tasks, the typical man would have to have his brain constantly accessing one side then the other. Supposedly it also means women have a better chance of recovering more function after strokes.

This is all based on stuff I read many years ago about neurology and it might all be proven wrong by now.

[LadyLeader]

All the information I have got so far indicates that music is activating all the brain with different subactivities. I have posted an article about a radio program presenting some of these activities.

Rhytm experience is in left brain where gramatical and analytical processes take place.
Melody experience is in right brain where psycological, visual and primitive language centers are. Children learn first to recognize the melody pulse and the basic pulse comes later.

All this information can be used to analyze location and range of a brain damage as well as to be used when reactivating the deeper layers of damaged brain with music therapy.

(Some more information at this address if you find these lines interesting.)
http://leadingladyl.blogspot.com/2011/04/heart-beat-music-and-brain.html

[salthepal]

I sometimes hum with more inexperienced followers who are "thinking" about their steps too much and not listening enough to the music. With more experienced followers, I feel I can express the music with my dancing without the need for humming.

[AndaBien]

I sometimes hum with more inexperienced followers who are "thinking" about their steps too much and not listening enough to the music. With more experienced followers, I feel I can express the music with my dancing without the need for humming.

That's interesting. I've done something similar with students (followers) when I was trying to get them to hear the slow and quick beats of the music. While I danced with them I whispered ta ta-ta-ta (or whatever) to them so they would realize that the steps I was leading were supposed to match beats in the music.

I've also asked student leaders to do the same thing, but for their own benefit, so they would learn to make their leads fit to the beats - whichever ones they choose.

[poetas 84]

To my experience if partners start singing and humming along while dancing, the chances are that IT is going to happen !

[sixela]

I also imagine that focusing is a zero sum equation. That is, the more you are to the right, the less you are to the left. If you are in the center, you're not doing either very much.

That's an oversimplification, and depends on the exact mental processes involved. My wife wouldn't enjoy reading most of the 'neurophysiology' expressed in this thread, but she stopped dancing ages ago (and has a healthy distrust for cyber-socialising and on-line fora).

On the humming: it can be good, it can be bad. I don't mind the humming of Glenn Gould on the famous Golberg variation recordings (he actually hums a voice that's different from the voices in the score), so why would I mind people humming to the music (correctly)?

[AndaBien]

...I don't mind the humming of Glenn Gould on the famous Golberg variation recordings (he actually hums a voice that's different from the voices in the score), so why would I mind people humming to the music (correctly)?

If he were humming while you were trying to talk to him, I think you would mind.

[Peaches]

this is not my experience. humming, silently or not, increases my concentration on the leader and the music, places me completely in the moment and screens out all external stimuli.

we will have to agree to disagree.
I agree with you. I know my first teacher used to hum or sing quietly deliberately--he told me I would dance differently (better) when he did so. To me, it's charming...assuming it's done relatively well. I tune in more to my partner, it feels like he's more in tune with the music...when I stop myself from humming along (because so many people seem to dislike it so intently) I actually find that (the deliberate stopping) distracting. I can hum and dance at the same time--it's two simultaneous expressions of the music...it's like I can't keep it to myself. Sometimes, I'm just moved enough that I want to hum or sing along quietly...which I can do and dance at the same time just fine...but suppressing it is distracting.

[sixela]

If he were humming while you were trying to talk to him, I think you would mind.

But he's humming while we're both listening to the same music (and in fact, I listen to the extra one he makes while humming). He's not talking to me except through the music -- humming and all.

In other words, I'd find someone humming when I'm talking to them offensive, but they can hum just fine when I dance with 'em.

I'll bite my lips before I say anything about people trying to talk instead of humming to the music on a milonga floor...

[AndaBien]

...I'll bite my lips before I say anything about people trying to talk instead of humming to the music on a milonga floor...

I agree with that completely. I wish more followers would just say, "Shut up and dance"!

[bordertangoman]

But he's humming while we're both listening to the same music (and in fact, I listen to the extra one he makes while humming). He's not talking to me except through the music -- humming and all.

In other words, I'd find someone humming when I'm talking to them offensive, but they can hum just fine when I dance with 'em.

I'll bite my lips before I say anything about people trying to talk instead of humming to the music on a milonga floor...

no dont bite your lips ( or do you mean your tongue?) just tell them to shaddup. Appparently Germans do..

sprechen Sie nicht, indem Sie tanzen

[dchester]

I agree with that completely. I wish more followers would just say, "Shut up and dance"!
Do you think that will get them more dances?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[AndaBien]

Do you think that will get them more dances?

No. But I don't think they are getting a dance while their partner is talking to them.

[LoveTango]

I like to watch people as a couple, rather than just watching the individual doing their part. I watch to see how well the couple moves as one. It's actually rather rare to see 2 people dancing tango and truly looking like a single unit rather than someone who is sending signals and someone who is trying to catch them and respond. I had been thinking that typically I see this only in close embrace, however, I watched a couple at a milonga last weekend who were dancing open nuevo and they embodied this principle even though they were being playful and "fancy".

BOTH people need to be good dancers to pull this off, so it doesn't tell you much about the people who are good that are dancing with someone who can't pull it off. But when you see a couple moving so perfectly as one dancer, it's a safe bet that they are probably both great partners. (unless of course, they only ever dance with each other and that's how they developed this ability together... but then, if that's the case, they aren't going to dance with you anyway, so it doesn't matter)

However, some very good dancers can end up simply not meshing well with another good dancer. Also a good dancer may be dancing with someone who hasn't attained the skill of "becoming one". So in the cases where I don't have the "perfect sync" to clue me in, I look at leaders for things like Lily states in her post and in this order:

Does he look like he is safe for the rest of the dancers out there.
Does he overuse his arms or look to be "forcing" rather than leading.
Does he dance with the music or is he just moving around independently of the music.

If he passes those basic tests, I'll probably dance with him if he asks. Usually when there's someone I REALLY want to dance with, and will feel sad that I didn't dance with, I formed that desire by having danced with him, not from watching him. Until I actually dance with him, I can't be sure whether he's someone that I REALLY, REALLY don't want to miss out on (unless he's famous, and even then...). Even the leaders that other followers rave about may not turn out to be someone that makes me tango-swoon. The only way to find out for sure is to dance with someone.

When watching followers (not to dance with) I watch to see how cleanly, elegantly and precisely they execute the simplest things like walking. I don't get distracted by the number or height of embellishments. Or actually, to be more specific, if I'm noticing the embellishments that much, they probably ARE distracting... which means they don't fit the dance that well. I look at the posture and connection she seems to have, and how stable and responsive she seems to be. I find that many leaders are impressed by the wrong things when they watch followers, but actually many followers are too... they see the higher boleos and fancy wraps and think "Oh wow! She's SO good!"...

yeah... maybe she is.. or maybe she throws all that stuff in regardless of what the leader is trying to do and has no ability to alter her styling.

Exactly how I think. But of course, I won't be able to express even 20% of it. Thanks, Zoopsia.

[Peaches]

i find that many leaders are impressed by the wrong things when they watch followers[...snip...] they see the higher heels and short skirts and think "oh wow! She's so good!"... ftfy. ;)

[LoveTango]

surely that's what a tanda is for;
song 1; find the limits of her comfort zone
song 2; take her out of her comfort zone
song 3; dance out of your comfort zone.

How about using song 1 to calibrate? For me, with a leader I never dance before, I need a little time, maybe a minute or so, to become familiar with the characteristic of his connection and movement, so that my movement can be adjusted accordingly. I think it would be true for the leader, too.

[LoveTango]

I love that song. i would sing it with my body and mind, but would not sing it out loud.

I might be able to sing Tango to Evora while following...

[bordertangoman]

interstingly enough humming has given me an excuse Not to dance with someone..she hates people singing whilst dancing, and she's a lumpy dancer so its a great relief not to have to dance with her...

[dchester]

I had someone who very softly sang and hummed to parts of the songs during a tanda (It's the first time that I can recall it happening). I found it to be very pleasant. It also made me feel like she was enjoying herself.

[bordertangoman]

I had someone who very softly sang and hummed to parts of the songs during a tanda (It's the first time that I can recall it happening). I found it to be very pleasant. It also made me feel like she was enjoying herself.

i get that sometimes; its nice to hear, and I agree it probably means she knowsa nd likes the song...

[twnkltoz]

The other night I danced with one of my regular favorites. He does not usually hum or sing, but this night I had the honor of dancing his favorite tango with him, and he sang it to me very softly, just for the two of us. It felt very special and sweet and not at all distracting. The rest of the tanda was the same orchestra which he loves, although he didn't sing them.

One thing I love about tango is that you can have these special moments and know that after the tanda is over, the love affair is over...it was all about the dance.