Starting WCS with AT background?

[gyb]

I'm thinking about getting into West Coast Swing.

I never danced anything other than AT, and even there for the past few years I almost exclusively dance milonguero style (once upon a time I learned many complex/larger steps but by now I forgot them all; I don't think I lead a single gancho say, in the past two years). Among other partner dances I only feel draw towards WCS, and honestly I'm more inclined to learn it than getting (back) to nuevo. I'd like to dance to contemporary music I like, not to mention that I'd like to have a "backup" dance in case I want to take a shorter break from tango.

Any experiences from TA people moving to WCS? What would help, what would hinder, what would I likely need to be careful about? I have many friends who moved to AT with background in WCS (they are all pretty good dancers), but yet to meet someone who moves in the opposite direction.

I need to add that I already took two (2) classes and went out dancing afterwards, and it feels somewhat debilitating to adhere to the basic step pattern; I also feel much less confident as the perceived loss of control is weird (and because I feel as a complete beginner again, I guess).

[Peaches]

*raises hand* Well, I dabble with WCS, having come from purely AT (although I moved freely between dancing milonguero, salon and nuevo).

Everything you're saying sounds normal, or at least familiar. Starting over again sucks. I would that the whole being stuck in a basic step pattern seems to be more a factor of being a beginner than an inherent factor in the dance. If you watch the good dancers, and know what to look for, you can see the basics in there...ish...but they've been embellished and stretched and have variations to them that they don't really resemble the basics anymore.

Personally, I haven't found much crossover in skills. Perhaps the idea of having some tone in your arms without tension (not noodle-arms, not stiff-armed), the connection...sort of...I guess I know and understand what a connection is and kind of what it should feel like. Probably the idea of powering your own steps and your own movement transfers (instead of relying on someone else to move you). I'll go out on a limb and say the idea of really listening to the music and fitting the dance to the music--on the fly--transfers...but I'm too much of a beginner that I can't really think about that at this point.

[AndaBien]

I don't do WCS, but I've been an EC Swinger for a long time.

I recognize two categories of dance (among others): partner-at-arms-length dances, such as swing, rumba, chacha, minuet, and partner-in-your-arms dances, such as waltz, fox trot, one-step, blues and tango.

I much prefer the second, because there is greater intimacy and connection in them. I've had many fine swing dance, that were very nicely connected with my partner, but a connection via ones hands just isn't the same, for me, as connection via ones arms. In other words, they are very different dances.

I imagine you will learn something about tango by learning WCS. Don't be hindered by your "beginnerness". Give in to it and have fun. Don't put too much effort into getting past that phase of your dancing - because, you eventually will want to return to it.

I learned Zydeco a short while back. The experience was humbling. I didn't care for Zydeco.

[twnkltoz]

Well, I was a WCS dancer first, so not moving in the same direction, but I think there's a lot to be said for what you learn in AT about connection, lead/follow, and musicality. Even though it all feels completely different when you go to WCS, you'll still have an understanding of those concepts and that will make crossing over easier than if you were a non-dancer taking it up. I have taught people who had pretty much only done AT, and they "got it" more easily than non-dancers I've taught.

I don't know that I can think of what you should watch for...it's a completely different dance, so try not to compare them or let your AT technique carry over (other than the basics of what I mentioned above). Also know that if you stick with it long enough, you will break out of those patterns into some really cool stuff, but you MUST get those basics down and learn the rules or it just doesn't work. You're going to have to give yourself a mental shake and just get over it and enjoy what the dance is instead of what it isn't. :)

[jennyisdancing]

Well, I was a WCS dancer first, so not moving in the same direction, but I think there's a lot to be said for what you learn in AT about connection, lead/follow, and musicality. Even though it all feels completely different when you go to WCS, you'll still have an understanding of those concepts and that will make crossing over easier than if you were a non-dancer taking it up. I have taught people who had pretty much only done AT, and they "got it" more easily than non-dancers I've taught.

I don't know that I can think of what you should watch for...it's a completely different dance, so try not to compare them or let your AT technique carry over (other than the basics of what I mentioned above). Also know that if you stick with it long enough, you will break out of those patterns into some really cool stuff, but you MUST get those basics down and learn the rules or it just doesn't work. You're going to have to give yourself a mental shake and just get over it and enjoy what the dance is instead of what it isn't. :)

Agreed...
I also have done both, and know some other dancers who started with AT, then went to WCS. Yes, the idea of certain set patterns will take some getting used to. But if you're leading, there is still the concept of knowing where you want your follower's weight to end up at certain points. However, in WCS, you don't lead the follower's every single weight change. Maybe the WCS leaders on here can explain better, since I'm a follower.

[AndaBien]

...in WCS, you don't lead the follower's every single weight change...

Again, I'm not a WCSer, but in almost every other couple dance there is a basis step that followers can just grove on once the leader gets them started, maybe with some variations included, but then back to the basic. As you already know, not so in AT.

That means the follower is not standing there on one foot waiting for your lead. She's doing her footwork and your lead has to come in the appropriate place, at the right time.

[jennyisdancing]

Again, I'm not a WCSer, but in almost every other couple dance there is a basis step that followers can just grove on once the leader gets them started, maybe with some variations included, but then back to the basic. As you already know, not so in AT.

That means the follower is not standing there on one foot waiting for your lead. She's doing her footwork and your lead has to come in the appropriate place, at the right time.

Okay, but I should add, there isn't just one basic step in WCS, there are a few foundational patterns: sugar push, side pass, underarm turn and whip. Everything else comes off those patterns. And unlike many other partner dances (as pointed out above), a follower has to know her own footwork for those patterns.

The follower is not "just following" or doing the mirror image of the leader's footwork. She's mostly doing her own footwork and the leader's job is to direct and redirect her, although there are certain steps that involve more step-by-step leading. For example, many WCS dancers do ochos (although in WCS they're called something else, I think). There's a popular step where the follower is led to be in front of, and facing away from, the leader, and he leads her to do a step that is similar to a front ocho. I did this with an experienced AT dancer and he knew exactly how to lead it. :)

[Steve Pastor]

What would help?

Many people teach to "lead from your center" now a days. As someone who has been dancing "milonguero style", you should be pretty familiar with that concept.
Except that your center is "connected" to your partner's center through your paritally extended arm(s) much of the time!
Any patterns that use a closed position (including whips) will feel more center to center connected than the open position ones.

Being familiar with the idea of not leading with your arms is in your favor, too; although the no arm leads thing is about as accurate for WCS as there are no set patterns is for AT.

I'd say, too, that you are used to the idea that you are leading the woman's "center" and that she is taking a step to move her feet under her moving/moved center. Same thing happens in WCS, but she has more control and freedom to take any combination of steps she wants to get there.

The "anchor step" is one place where she can do just about anything. The agreement, though, is that most of the time her weight will be away from you on that last count in an "anchoring" position, as will yours.

The idea that the woman can surprise you by, for instance delaying one of her walking steps, or taking 3 steps there instead, is something that happens in WCS much earlier than in AT. (In AT it seems that not many dancers get to that point.)

The way you think about her steps, could possibly hinder you. Don't let it!

And oh, hey, try to enjoy that fact that you are stretching yourself and learning. Many adults don't go there.

[jennyisdancing]

Many people teach to "lead from your center" now a days. As someone who has been dancing "milonguero style", you should be pretty familiar with that concept.
Except that your center is "connected" to your partner's center through your paritally extended arm(s) much of the time!
Any patterns that use a closed position (including whips) will feel more center to center connected than the open position ones.

I'd say, too, that you are used to the idea that you are leading the woman's "center" and that she is taking a step to move her feet under her moving/moved center. Same thing happens in WCS, but she has more control and freedom to take any combination of steps she wants to get there.

The "anchor step" is one place where she can do just about anything. The agreement, though, is that most of the time her weight will be away from you on that last count in an "anchoring" position, as will yours.



That's a great explanation! Definitely...don't think as much about leading footwork. It's kind of like AT ladies embellishments...except in WCS I guess you could say the embellishments extend into the actual steps and not just between the steps. So in most cases, yeah, you lead the body and not the feet.

[gyb]

Thanks, this has been pretty useful so far.

A follow-up question: my experience is that an eager follower who has some dancing background and hears the beat can get started in AT after a couple of minutes of initial introduction to basic concepts, in the sense that one can slowly teach her the basic vocabulary (with the exception of the cross) simply by dancing and patiently repeating variations on a certain lead, progressing in a suitable order. I have done this many times before, by the end of the day you can get pretty enjoyable dances which do resemble to AT.

Can an experienced WCS leader also achieve the same, that is can an experienced WCS leader teach dancing by dancing to someone who has the talent (and so that the dance still has something to do with WCS)? How important it is for the follower to learn her basics in class setting?

[twnkltoz]

Thanks, this has been pretty useful so far.

A follow-up question: my experience is that an eager follower who has some dancing background and hears the beat can get started in AT after a couple of minutes of initial introduction to basic concepts, in the sense that one can slowly teach her the basic vocabulary (with the exception of the cross) simply by dancing and patiently repeating variations on a certain lead, progressing in a suitable order. I have done this many times before, by the end of the day you can get pretty enjoyable dances which do resemble to AT.

Can an experienced WCS leader also achieve the same, that is can an experienced WCS leader teach dancing by dancing to someone who has the talent (and so that the dance still has something to do with WCS)? How important it is for the follower to learn her basics in class setting?

No. In AT, her steps come from what you're doing--where you lead with your chest, the steps you take, etc. In WCS (and a lot of BR for that matter), she has her own pattern that is completely different from yours. She has to learn the fundamentals and basics.

[twnkltoz]

I thought I'd share something with you. This video is of a jack & jill competition, meaning they drew their partner out of a hat. This is completely unchoreographed. Tell me they look constrained by having to do patterns! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40476hM6xtg&feature=share

[Steve Pastor]

Can an experienced WCS leader also achieve the same, that is can an experienced WCS leader teach dancing by dancing to someone who has the talent (and so that the dance still has something to do with WCS)?

It depends on your expectations and your standards.
Where I dance most couples are out there doing "West Coast Swing". They are enjoying themselves.
If you can be satisfied with the woman moving towards you when you step back on the 1 count and letting everything else slide until it's time to step back again... Then yeah, you can get out there and do "West Coast Swing". Lots of people do.

Every now and then, though, I spot someone (and it's usually a woman) who actually looks like she knows what she is doing. She's keeping time with the music (often in spite of the lead). She's clearly doing triples. She's walking like she knows where she's going. She appears to be anchoring on the last beat of the pattern.

Those are things that they probably didn't learn dancing with an experienced leader.

Just think of how many people take lessons and don't learn to dance in time to the music, or learn about compression in a Sugar Push, or "away resistance" in anchoring.

West Coast Swing, and Western Swing before that, have always been known as a dance for people who already know how to dance. Skippy Blair calls it an "educated dance", meaning that the woman needs to know her part, too (and that's on top of being a dancer already).

If I take someone out on the floor who doesn't know WCS, (which is very very rare) my expectations are very low. And unless someone wants to pursue some kind of lessons, it's unlikey that I will continue dancing WCS with them.

But, that's just me. And there are lots of folks who will just get out there.

[jennyisdancing]

No. In AT, her steps come from what you're doing--where you lead with your chest, the steps you take, etc. In WCS (and a lot of BR for that matter), she has her own pattern that is completely different from yours. She has to learn the fundamentals and basics.

Definitely....as a follower I can absolutely agree. I know of some women who don't want to take lessons and do want to just show up at a dance and learn simply by following. I just don't see WCS as a dance you can do that way.

If a WCS leader dances with a non-trained follower, sure, it's possible to have a fun dance, especially if the follower is graceful and has good musicality. But you'll be limited to leading certain kinds of moves, and it wouldn't be "true" WCS.

[opendoor]

Tango was the first dance I ever learned (in the age of 40), WCS was the third, after a little bit of Salsa (cuban Casino style and LA). And I found it was a real complement. I was totally fixed in my posture and the direct leading of my dp. And in WCS: let your arm hang loosely at your side, be easy and flimsy, what a difference. But also a great accordance in the way your body determines your DP´s moves. So finally I find, to start WCS really was a great enrichment and integration of leading concepts.

[opendoor]

By the way, jenny, I like your new profile photo ;)

[Steve Pastor]

And in WCS: let your arm hang loosely at your side, be easy and flimsy, what a difference.

Just so you know, there are those that don't think much of this as preferred styling in WCS.

[twnkltoz]

Just so you know, there are those that don't think much of this as preferred styling in WCS.

I keep mine loose at my side, but bent so that my forearm is roughly level--always ready to give it to the guy if he wants it.

[jennyisdancing]

By the way, jenny, I like your new profile photo ;)

thanks...it was taken at a WCS event :)

[Dave Bailey]

Funny enough, I just started learning WCS myself a couple of months ago :)

Any experiences from TA people moving to WCS? What would help, what would hinder, what would I likely need to be careful about?
Um.

To me, WCS has almost no connection with AT, the techniques are very different. Learning WCS reminds me of learning salsa; at the moment the emphasis is on moves, timing and tension / compression.

And I suspect that trying to incorporate anything Tango-y into WCS will not end well.

So I'd say simply treat it as a new dance, and enjoy it as such.

[bordertangoman]

this is an excuse to post my ALL TIME favorite dance video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fXulOk14D4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5D6DE466C44D799E

[twnkltoz]

this is an excuse to post my ALL TIME favorite dance video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fXulOk14D4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5D6DE466C44D799E

That is awesome!!