Difference between LA style and Mambo

[dessaix]

I am pretty much done with salsa casino and wanted to go into something else.

i really like how mambo looks and would like to learn that. when i dance bachata and merengue i put alot of emotion into it unlike casino but when i see these LA/mambo salseros it looks very nice.it is also (or so i heard) funner to dance socially and more recognized around the world.

unfortunately the nearest mambo workshop is pretty far from my work location. but i did find LA style on 2 and was told it was very much like mambo.

I am very curious to know what are the key differenes between the two :)

[Pacion]

LA Style On 2? Okay, I am out of my depth on this one. :oops: Never saw it and I always thought that the main difference between mambo (On 2) and LA Style was the amount of styling plus mambo has more isolation/body movement (afro-cuban movement).

Anyone? I am curious NOW! :lol:

[tj]

LA Style On 2? Okay, I am out of my depth on this one. :oops: Never saw it and I always thought that the main difference between mambo (On 2) and LA Style was the amount of styling plus mambo has more isolation/body movement (afro-cuban movement).

Anyone? I am curious NOW! :lol:

Hmm, from what I saw last weekend - a lot of the On2 crowd does a lot more afro-cuban movement than the Seattle-ites that I've known. And I think I know what they mean by the "LA Flashyness", too.

Don't know about the LA Style On2 though.... Could it be a marketing term?

[dessaix]

i think i meant 1

[SDsalsaguy]

That would make a LOT more sense... :wink:

[dessaix]

:roll: bah so what are the key differences :?:

[MacMoto]

By "mambo" I assume you are talking about the NY style on2 salsa rather than ballroom mambo (I don't how different these two are).

There is a thread on this very topic -- see "What's the difference between NY and LA Salsa? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3946)"

In this thread, Boriken sums up the differences between LA and NY styles quite nicely:

Easiest way to look at it is... NY Style is danced on2, meaning we break on2, and LA Style is danced on1, meaning they break on1. Besides that there is a "difference" in stepping pattern, not in L,R,L,R, but the musical beats that are stepped on.

LA is characterized by tricks/flips/dips.

NY style is characterized by shines and too many spins.

Besides that, same thing.

[squirrel]

:) I would learn both NY on 2 and LA on 1 if I were you!!!

[Sabor]

what if he goes for the best of two worlds and dances on 1.5? .. what would it be called? .. MaLAmbo :lol:

[salsachinita]

:shock: Malambo (sp?) is actually a real dance :shock: !

An Argentinian folkloric dance, to be exact. It's a bit like a cross between tap & Irish dancing.

:oops: plz correct me if I'm wrong, all you Argentinians out there........

[Sabor]

:shock: well i'll be...!!.. i'm a genius and i dont know it :mrgreen:

[squirrel]

Sabor... do you dance on 1.5??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

[Sabor]

usually its on 1.6 or 1.7.. depending on the thickness of my socksies :P

[squirrel]

WOW! I'm flabbergasted!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sabor]

wow! that sounds painfull :lol:

[squirrel]

it's not... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Danoo]

usually its on 1.6 or 1.7.. depending on the thickness of my socksies :P

lol thats sooo funny
as for me i dance on 1 :)
well i at least try to :oops: :roll:

[Cats]

Actually they are almost two different dances. They have 2 different basics.

The issue with dancing on 2 is that the percussion does not support it. The Clave is never played anymore. Supposedly the Conga beats harder on 2 every few measures but I haven't been hearing it that much either. The NY Mambo basic has an innovation in that there is a step on 1 but the break step is still on 2-3. The nice thing I noticed about the NY basic is that this step supports more hip action than the LA basic.

The LA basic which most people dance and the break step is on 1-2.

The big difference is that the man steps backward on the first half of the measure for the NY basic and forward for the LA Basic. This changes everything because the womans advance in the cross body lead is immediate for the NY whereas she must wait 1/2 a measure in the LA and likewise the turn timing is different.

For me, a guy, when I learned the NY basic it didn't help to be knowledgeable on the LA basic.

>^..^<

[borikensalsero]

Actually they are almost two different dances. They have 2 different basics.

The issue with dancing on 2 is that the percussion does not support it. The Clave is never played anymore. Supposedly the Conga beats harder on 2 every few measures but I haven't been hearing it that much either. The NY Mambo basic has an innovation in that there is a step on 1 but the break step is still on 2-3. The nice thing I noticed about the NY basic is that this step supports more hip action than the LA basic.


Welcome aboard cats!!

Expanding a bit on your thoughts...
The clave doesn't have to be played, it is implayed, the basic/back bone of salsa is the clave pattern, which means the music is felt as if the clave was playing, hence, why there is no need to play the clave.

The reason you don't hear the hard slap of the conga is because all other instruments hitting on the two opaque it. If you sit down and watch an orquestra play salsa you will see the conga player actually hit the 2 and 6 the hardest. Once you see that, you will consciously know that it is happening, to eventually be able to pick out even when others don't hear it. Because it is still there... The congas are what support the rhythm and that slap on 2 and 6 "keeps' everyone together. If the conga was't playing its structured rhythm you wouldn't have salsa anymore. That pattern must be there... When it isn't it is being held together by the other percussion instruments.

Since on 2 is danced to the Conga, hence, the glue to percussion it actually supports it... The conga supports the on2 as well as the clave...

Not that it actually matters but good to know...

[don_svendo]

what if he goes for the best of two worlds and dances on 1.5?
Wow, this would make it possible to step on the 6.5 clave beat,which is missed by both the on-1 and on-2 styles. You might be starting a new religion here, Sabor! Perhaps on 2.5 would be better, though... :twisted:

[SDsalsaguy]

:doh:

[don_svendo]

:D

[Cats]

Well maybe you are correct, maybe I just don't know what to listen to. However I am not alone. People would love to dance on 2 but the LA on 1 style dominates. Furthermore the NY on 2 style is popular because the 1st step is on 1 though the break step is on 2-3. So I would say that without the Clave it is not as clear as it seems where the 2nd beat is.

Actually they are almost two different dances. They have 2 different basics.

The issue with dancing on 2 is that the percussion does not support it. The Clave is never played anymore. Supposedly the Conga beats harder on 2 every few measures but I haven't been hearing it that much either. The NY Mambo basic has an innovation in that there is a step on 1 but the break step is still on 2-3. The nice thing I noticed about the NY basic is that this step supports more hip action than the LA basic.


Welcome aboard cats!!

Expanding a bit on your thoughts...
The clave doesn't have to be played, it is implayed, the basic/back bone of salsa is the clave pattern, which means the music is felt as if the clave was playing, hence, why there is no need to play the clave.

The reason you don't hear the hard slap of the conga is because all other instruments hitting on the two opaque it. If you sit down and watch an orquestra play salsa you will see the conga player actually hit the 2 and 6 the hardest. Once you see that, you will consciously know that it is happening, to eventually be able to pick out even when others don't hear it. Because it is still there... The congas are what support the rhythm and that slap on 2 and 6 "keeps' everyone together. If the conga was't playing its structured rhythm you wouldn't have salsa anymore. That pattern must be there... When it isn't it is being held together by the other percussion instruments.

Since on 2 is danced to the Conga, hence, the glue to percussion it actually supports it... The conga supports the on2 as well as the clave...

Not that it actually matters but good to know...

[borikensalsero]

Well maybe you are correct, maybe I just don't know what to listen to. However I am not alone. People would love to dance on 2 but the LA on 1 style dominates. Furthermore the NY on 2 style is popular because the 1st step is on 1 though the break step is on 2-3. So I would say that without the Clave it is not as clear as it seems where the 2nd beat is.

Yeap, it is definitely harder, at first, to hear the two. However when you are so used to it, it becomes just as clear as the loud bang of the 1 or the 5. It becomes second nature. To me, I can pick out the 2 just as easily as I can the one, when I dance 2,3,4 I don't even care for the 1, I in fact don't even pay attention to it. I care for the 2, which even without the clave and after getting my ear fine tuned, the TA is the baby I look for. :D

On1 does dominate, it is a matter of where we live and what we choose to dance. Here in NY City the on2 (Power on2, and Eddie) dominate the scene.

[don_svendo]

I would say that without the Clave it is not as clear as it seems where the 2nd beat is.

Right after the 1st beat... :wink:
Seriously though, I'm not sure if people who learn on 2 really have more difficulties learning to find the beat than the rest of us. Many many many on-1 dancers have problems finding the beat too! The problem for you is probably that you are already used to dancing on 1.

[borikensalsero]

I would say that without the Clave it is not as clear as it seems where the 2nd beat is.

Right after the 1st beat... :wink:
Seriously though, I'm not sure if people who learn on 2 really have more difficulties learning to find the beat than the rest of us. Many many many on-1 dancers have problems finding the beat too! The problem for you is probably that you are already used to dancing on 1.

yeap, to find the two may teach finding the one first... Which certainly alludes to, finding the beat for both should be the same. For some reason though, I always hear people saying it is always stressed to hearing the 2 being harder. I guess what is really meant, and I have fallen under the belief that it is just not as audible, hence, might seem harder... :? :?

[borikensalsero]

Expanding, I've gone to a couple schools that actually don't teach to find the 1, but rather the rhythm of the congas. That possibly can be where the notion of being harder comes from... Now you really got me thinking don_svendo...

Since the slap on the 2 or 6 is hard to hear with all the comotion from all the other instruments it becomes almost imposible to hear... hmmm hhmmm

[peachexploration]

Expanding, I've gone to a couple schools that actually don't teach to find the 1, but rather the rhythm of the congas. ......
Actually, listening to just the congas has help me alot. When counting, you complete ignore the 1 beat. Coming from 1 training is difficult because that's what you're trained to hear. But the congas emphasize the "loud" 2 which helps tremendously. At least it help me. :wink: :D

[borikensalsero]

Expanding, I've gone to a couple schools that actually don't teach to find the 1, but rather the rhythm of the congas. ......
Actually, listening to just the congas has help me alot. When counting, you complete ignore the 1 beat. Coming from 1 training is difficult because that's what you're trained to hear. But the congas emphasize the "loud" 2 which helps tremendously. At least it help me. :wink: :D

That is the way I learned, my lady love used to ask me all the time when we first started dancing, how in the world could I stayed on beat if I couldn't count? I always told her the congas, and the bass when the congas weren't as audible.

Then she and one of my musician friends taught me to count, and boy was I a mess trying to count and follow the beat. I learned to dance, "backwards", I first learned about the music then to count it. But now at least I understand the mentality of counting. :D

[don_svendo]

I've gone to a couple schools that actually don't teach to find the 1, but rather the rhythm of the congas.
Interesting... We were just taught how to count the steps, not how to identify the beats in the music. Since I have some musical background I didn't find this too hard, but I know that a lot of people do...
I only learned to identify individual instruments after browsing these forums, though. :)

[Pacion]

I believe that after a while you just feel/instinctively know where the 1 or the 2 is - if you listen to enough music - such that if you came into hearing the song mid phrase, you will know which beat you are on.

One test of the above? Is if/when you go off beat either because you had to do a bunny hop to miss colliding with someone's foot, or there was a uneven part of the floor, you can pause, and get back on the timing again :D

[borikensalsero]

I've gone to a couple schools that actually don't teach to find the 1, but rather the rhythm of the congas.
Interesting... We were just taught how to count the steps, not how to identify the beats in the music. Since I have some musical background I didn't find this too hard, but I know that a lot of people do...
I only learned to identify individual instruments after browsing these forums, though. :)

It is, the one class that I went to the most actually had a audio version of something like salsarhythms has. They break down first the conga, then the clave, then piano, the cowbell, and lastly every instrument together. The class does not progress until everyone learned the basic rhythms structure. that was the only class I've ever been to where the instructor took the time to explain, the why, when, how of not only the instruments, but the rhythm they played, and were every given step in the dance originated. I was more facintated by all the knowledge than actually learning to dance. hehe

I think, had she play a song off the bat, none of the beginners would have figureout where to find what, or what to look for in the music. But since she took the time to teach all of that, everyone seemed to find the beat naturally after a couple of class and hearing the same constant beat over and over and over.

[Pacion]

everyone seemed to find the beat naturally after a couple of class and hearing the same constant beat over and over and over.

They were brainwashed? :shock:

You will, you will, find that beat :wink:


:lol:

[peachexploration]

.....It is, the one class that I went to the most actually had a audio version of something like salsarhythms has. They break down first the conga, then the clave, then piano, the cowbell, and lastly every instrument together. The class does not progress until everyone learned the basic rhythms structure. that was the only class I've ever been to where the instructor took the time to explain, the why, when, how of not only the instruments, but the rhythm they played, and were every given step in the dance originated. I was more facintated by all the knowledge than actually learning to dance. hehe......

I remember thinking about this after a few classes I had taken. So many beginners really struggled because they were instructed to "feel" the music and had no idea how. I think if many more classes were instructed this way, many would be able to get through it without frustration. Particularly with someone who is not used to listening to Salsa IMHO. *shrug*

[Lita_rulez]

everyone seemed to find the beat naturally after a couple of class and hearing the same constant beat over and over and over.

So basicaly, what you are saying is that Gloria Estefan was right :

Eventualy, rythm IS going to get you !

.
..
...

OK, I'l let myself out.


P.S.
I'll try and put the time in this afternoon to phrase my opinion of "one" versus "two ET" versus "Power Two" a litle more seriously than that ;)

[borikensalsero]

everyone seemed to find the beat naturally after a couple of class and hearing the same constant beat over and over and over.

So basicaly, what you are saying is that Gloria Estefan was right :

Eventualy, rythm IS going to get you !

.
..
...

OK, I'l let myself out.


P.S.
I'll try and put the time in this afternoon to phrase my opinion of "one" versus "two ET" versus "Power Two" a litle more seriously than that ;)

That was so totally serious! Great observation Lita... hehe

[Lita_rulez]

Ok, here are the 3 basic Mambo steps:

LA Style (Mambo on 1)
1: Left foot forward
2: Right on spot (midle)
3: Left foot middle
4: No step
5: Right foot back
6: Left foot on spot (midle)
7: Right foot midle
8: No Step
1: Left foot forward


Power 2 (Mambo on 2)
1: No step
2: Right foot back
3: Left foot on spot (midle)
4: Right foot midle
5: No Step
6: Left foot forward
7: Right foot on spot (midle)
8: Left foot midle
1: No Step


NY Style/ Eddie Torres (Mambo on 2)
1: Left Foot back
2: Right foot further back
3: Left on spot
4: No actual step, but right foot up, moving forward
5: Right foot forward
6: Left foot further forward
7: Right foot on spot
8: No actual step, but left foot up, moving backward
1: Left Foot back



Now those 3 basic are Mambo Basic Steps, but in 3 different styles.

The most important thing though, is not which one is better then the other two. (besides, you could still throw in cuban style, colombian style, etc...)
The most important thing is "when to dance what"

Though I love mambo and I am learning how to break on 2 (ET style) and I have an OK knowledge of the Power 2, I am still going to be dancing on 1 for a very simple reason : In my opinion, some tunes are meant to be danced on 1 and some are meant to be danced on 2.


The first thing I have learned when I started taking classes at my favourit club (well, the second one, the first one being at least 30 freaky figures ;) )was that as my teacher would put it right before he would go into a wave : "Guys, remember : the third beat is a loooooong (waving, should see the look on the face of the girl he was demonstrating with) beat. So use it !"

The second thing is purely a musical thing : take 50 people who have never listened to any salsa. Ask them to clap their hands to the rythme, they are going to find the one. (well, except for the 3 desperat cases that have no sense of rythme whatsoever, and the 2 musicians who, on the contrary, will slice down each instrument and give you all the beat break downs you could think off)


From those two observations, I have come to the conclusion that there is a very strong difference between dancing on 1 or dancing on 2 :

The LA Style (on 1) starts every movememnts on 1, on the basse, on the beat on wich instictively 80% of the people will want to clap their hands or tap their feet, is more dynamic, more punchy. Dancers are going to ancre their moves one the strong beats, the dance is more "marked". Not syncopated, it can still be fluid, but hapening on the 1, on the strong beat, the general feeling of a clear cut break is greatly enhanced. I don't know about the others, but to me it is almost something physical : the basse hits your eardrums, resaonates through your body, and "WHAM", as the wave gets to your legs, you foot hits the dance floor !

The on 2 style (be it ET or Power) finds you in a very different situation :
ET Style : you do begin your move on the one, but it is not the time you break on, it is only a transition step. The break happens on 2
Power 2 : you begin your move on the 2, and the "off" beat (the one you do not move on) becomes the 1. Precisely the one on wich the basse seems to hit.
So, in both cases, the basse is not atune with the break in your step, and the 3 (wich is a looooooong beat) becomes a traveling time.
You end up with a much smoother dance : the break happens on a much lighter beat, and the traveling happens on a longer beat.


Given those premises, some song will give you a feel for a "smoother" type of dance, and som will give you a feel for a more "punchy" dance.

Now this feeling may come frome the fact that I am a newbee in breaking on 2, but it is nevertheless the way I do feel today.

And this is why I do not realy understand why so many people are so obtusely sticking to ONE style, and would not even consider mingling with people from the other style (let alone, god forbid, try and dance with them !!!)

[borikensalsero]

Let say we live in a place where on1 is done 100% of the time. On2 is faintly a thought, well, what would the use of learning on2 be?

here in NY city, most social dancers don't particularly care what beat somoene across the globe dances on, all the care is to dance the same style that is the norm in their given geographical region. Even if congressos get huge and we are exposed to dancer from all over the globe with different dancing style, still the majority of us don't care for the congressos, all we care is to go out from time to time and dance... Hence, no need to learn another style.

Granted, if someone cares to learn them all, hence dance with as many people from different places, then that is fine too. But to the regular club goer, there is absolutely no need to learn anything but what the norm is where they will be dancing 100% of the time.

On a side not, to me all music can be danced on2, i mean rock, reggea, merengue, bachata, it does't matter. If we are feeling beats as to how a preconcieved motion then yes, it matters what beat. But if you are there, experiencing how it feels and enjoying the different feel the body is getting to know, then there is no difference between a song feeling like it should be dance on1 or on2, for all we care to do is embrace the different feels of the music, and what emotions it stirs in us, rather than how awkard it feels to the mind, for the mind is the one judging and judging from what it is familiar to it.

[Lita_rulez]

Let say we live in a place where on1 is done 100% of the time. On2 is faintly a thought, well, what would the use of learning on2 be?

here in NY city, most social dancers don't particularly care what beat somoene across the globe dances on, all the care is to dance the same style that is the norm in their given geographical region. Even if congressos get huge and we are exposed to dancer from all over the globe with different dancing style, still the majority of us don't care for the congressos, all we care is to go out from time to time and dance... Hence, no need to learn another style.

Granted, if someone cares to learn them all, hence dance with as many people from different places, then that is fine too. But to the regular club goer, there is absolutely no need to learn anything but what the norm is where they will be dancing 100% of the time.


Right with you on the part about dancing what the norm is where you dance 100% of the time. Learning something else might very well be pointless if you have no one to dance it with.

I am however lucky enough to be living in a place where you can find both stunning on1 dancers and bewildering on2 dancers, so I obviously want to have fun with both types. That is the type of situation I was refering to.


On a side not, to me all music can be danced on2, i mean rock, reggea, merengue, bachata, it does't matter. If we are feeling beats as to how a preconcieved motion then yes, it matters what beat. But if you are there, experiencing how it feels and enjoying the different feel the body is getting to know, then there is no difference between a song feeling like it should be dance on1 or on2, for all we care to do is embrace the different feels of the music, and what emotions it stirs in us, rather than how awkard it feels to the mind, for the mind is the one judging and judging from what it is familiar to it.

Never meant to say this can only be danced on1, this can only be danced on2, this can only be danced cuban style (well, actually, that I have said once or twice, but then again, never said I was perfect ;) )

What I meant is that some song feel like it would be better danced on1 or on2. Now it is not at all in contradiction with what you are saying, far from it : "all we care to do is embrace the different feels of the music, and what emotions it stirs in us "; that is exactly it : on1 and on2 do not give the same tools to express yourself, to make the music yours. And some songs I want to make them mine, but still get the feeling that it would be even better on2. Vice versa, some speedy songs filled with breaks, I end up giving my partner a dip or a straight pause right on the 1 beat, and I can not see it working half as good on2.

[borikensalsero]

Lita,
what are your thoughts on the follow, Is the beat we step on representative of how the music is felt deep down inside? As how the soul would feel it? Record it? understand it?

I like the way you express yourself and would like to know what you think of that beyond the beats and how it interacts with the music.

[Lita_rulez]

Lita,
what are your thoughts on the follow, Is the beat we step on representative of how the music is felt deep down inside? As how the soul would feel it? Record it? understand it?


I definitly would not say that the beat we step on is representative of how the music is felt deep down inside. Well, not flat out anyways.

Saying the contrary would mean that someone who only knows on1 can not dance (properly) to a whole category of music.

Of course if you only know on1 or on2, you can still feel any type of music deep down inside yourself, and have an "organic" relation to that music, give it a personal interpretation.
I for one have only started to learn on2 a few weeks ago, and I never felt like I was out of place on the dance floor prior to that because a rather On2 song was playing. I gave it what I felt, and my follow did not complain that I was "leading it wrong"


But learning On2, I have discovered that gap between the two styles I described earlyer. One is more punchy, and one is smoother. Now don't get me wrong, you can give a very smooth interpretation of a song On1, and you can give punch to your moves On2.
But you have to work to make your On1 look smooth, and you will not get as smooth as the smoothest On2 dancer on the same song.
Just as you have to work to make your On2 punchy, and never will get as punchy as the punchyest On1 on the same song.
I mean, I have yet to see someone look as clear cut and punchy as Francisco Vasquez On2.

Besides, as I said before, some song I feel "ask" to be danced On2, and some ask to be danced On1. And it is very simple to see if you hit the breaks : some songs, you will be right there for the break, and some songs you will be like "damn, why is the break not one beat earlyer/later ?"
Well, that is because the song is easyer on the other beat than the one you are dancing to.

I ran into that particular problem discussing with a choregrapher who said he always prepared his choregraphy because of a feeling a music gave him, not that he was trying to find a music to fit his idea of a choregrpahy.
And that was the reason he'd change from "On1" to "On2" : because some musics he would not hit the breaks the way he wanted if he choregraphed it "Power 2" instead of "ET 2", some would rather fit "On1", and so on...

So to sum it up, I actualy do believe that the beat you step on is representative of the way you feel, provided you are natural at dancing to any beat, and have a partner that can follow any beat as well.

Simply because depending on the structure of the music, you will have to work less to get the same result with one style than with the others. And the less work you have to put in, the more freedom you have to actualy play with the music, and express all the emotions that it awakens in you.

But as I said before, dancing to a different beat is only a different tool for you to express yourself and what the music trigers in you. You do not need that tool to feel the music and express yourself. Just as you do not need to know every patern in the book to express your self on the dance floor while dancing to one particular style.

[salsachinita]

dancing to a different beat is only a different tool for you to express yourself and what the music trigers in you. You do not need that tool to feel the music and express yourself. Just as you do not need to know every patern in the book to express your self on the dance floor while dancing to one particular style.

:notworth: Well said, Lita :notworth: !

have a partner that can follow any beat as well.

:!: This is my next goal :!: ........I don't care about tricks/shines/steps, I need my tool so that I can be free to play :P !

[dancin/dj]

nice thread, without the drama-i enjoy the way its presented.for me with a 30 year music background i understand music(all kinds)really well.i learned salsa on 1-its easy to do and teach,on 2 ny style is harder (in my opinion) because you have to understand the clave(something natural to new yorkers and people from the islands(this is a not meant as every single person) .so its much more easy to do-and of couse valid,i like how boriken expressed how locally we get used to our own style or breaking.what i always found a problem with, is when someone gives attuide about not dancing autentic if your not in the clave-which techically you'll hit clave beats on 1 -in the 5 count through out the song,anyway dancing on 1 or on 2-its meant to be fun-with a little rum :wink:

[salsalawyer]

this is getting too mathematical for me!! :shock:

[squirrel]

salsalawyer... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sabor]

this is getting too mathematical for me!! :shock:

do like me.. use a scientific claculator.. very useful for derivatives.. but hey! no cheating!